This is hardly surprising, especially after he received Operation Rescue’s man of the year award: Outgoing Attorney General Phill Kline filed 11th-hour criminal charges Friday in Sedgwick County against abortion clinic doctor George Tiller, whose attorney, Dan Monnat, called the filing "the last gasp of a defeated and discredited politician."
The misdemeanor charges accuse Tiller of improperly finding that multiple patients’ mental health would be seriously harmed if they did not have abortions, and of not properly reporting some late-term abortions to the state — a charge that Monnat described as "hypertechnical."
Now we’ll see whether Kline, after years of legal haggling and expense, has anything significant that will stand up in court.
Posted by Randy Scholfield
UPDATE: District Judge Paul Clark has dismissed all the charges against Tiller. Sedgwick County District Attorney Nola Foulston requested the dismissal noting that Kline doesn’t have legal authority to unilaterally pursue criminal charges.
389 Comments
Is this is anything less than we expect from Phill Kline? Just like his appearance on Bill O’Reilly show and the abortion records. It’s all a part of the pony and show game for the OR and Religious Right sheeple.
The OR people have accused Tiller of many horrific crimes and then we hear misdemeanor charges?
Phill Klline just can’t take a hint. I wouldn’t wish that pervert on anyone, even the Mo Fo’s from Jo Co.
Pandering to his kook 35% to the last. Sad.
A woman is going to continue to have the right to control her body. This is not going to change. Deal with it.
Now we will see if there is anything there. Of course, Kline has set himself a win-win: if the case is solid and Tiller is convicted Kline claims vindication. If the case falls apart he blames Morrison.
After examining the case, if Morrison decides there’s nothing there, he can dismiss the case.
Big deal.
Kline has always been under the delusion that he has Kansas best interests at heart, and that deep down, we all support him because he’s such a good christian. I don’t see the delusion ending anytime soon.
Dan Monnat, called the filing “the last gasp of a defeated and discredited politician.”********************************************************************In the Eagle article, the above quote is credited to Lee Thompson, another Tiller attorney.
I wonder what Kline’s failure to notify Morrison or Folston about the charges means. Randy says the failure is telling. I am not sure what it is telling us.
Maybe telling us Nola would go to Paul Clark, Judge, and get the charges dismissed. See update on Eagle website.
I’ll go look. Thanks Vaughn.
“The misdemeanor charges accuse Tiller of improperly finding that multiple patients’ mental health would be seriously harmed if they did not have abortions.”
I wonder how one could conclude that the finding was improper from only a medical record? I hope we learn more. This suggests to me that maybe Kline’s filing really was a desperate 11th hour act as Randy alleges.
Do any of the attorney posters know if there is a legal standard set for when this is a proper justification for an abortion and when it is not proper?
Judge Paul Clark dismissed the charges.
Clark is not a supporter of Abortion, but IS a supporter of the constitution.
Pervert Phill is exposed.
Pervert Phill is trying to retain his glory but this may backfire in his face.
he is being investigated for election fraud and … nothing has been said yet about the records that Bill O’liley has talked aobut on his show
“and from a clinic in Overland Park operated by Planned Parenthood of Kansas and Mid-Missouri.”
Isn’t Overland Park in JoCo?
Folston…
Democratic cronism at its worst. Obvious abuse of the office of District Attorney for Sedgwick County. She used her own personal views to make a determination instead of protecting the people of Sedgwick County.
She should be disciplined.
“nothing has been said yet about the records that Bill O’liley has talked aobut on his show”
Maybe the new AG will look into that.
As Vaugn indicates, this is the latest on the Kline charges:
http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/16300030.htm
Nola Foulston requested that the charges be dropped due to 1) Kline not being invited to assist in the case by Foulston; or 2) Kline not being directed to pursue the matter by the governor.
Paul Clark, Democrat, did agree to drop the charges.
Uh, last I checked JM, Nola isn’t the biggest supporter of abortion rights. I suspect more than cronyism at work here.
SD, the legal standards for abortion are found in a combination of the various state statutes combined with the judicial gloss of SCOTUS opinions. The mental health finding is in accord with at least one SCOTUS opinion; I’m not familiar with the Kansas statutes so I won’t answer on that basis. GMC, others?
Just another event of Folston protecting Tiller and her Democratic Cronies and not protecting those that got the late term abortions who could be possible abuse victims.
Protecting victims is counter to a District Attorney’s position.
Evidently Folston doesn’t care and doesn’t want to know.
Again, why is Tiller fighting so hard to hide what is in those records if he has nothing hide?
JM,”She used her own personal views to make a determination instead of protecting the people of Sedgwick County.”
And you’re saying that Kline didn’t when he filed those charges?
Just because Clark is a member of the Democratic party does not make him a bad person. He is one of the most honest ethical men.
He does support the constitution and has the ability to see through the BS
Phill is like a bad fungus…just won’t go away.
As a member of the Bar who has the good fortune to know Judge Clark, I can assure JM and others that any decision he renders is IAW the law, and not his personal beliefs nor his political affiliation.
I find it funny that when the charges were dismissed, the Eagle zapped the comments section of their article
As a member of the Bar who has the good fortune to know Judge Clark, I can assure JM and others that any decision he renders is IAW the law, and not his personal beliefs nor his political affiliation. Posted by: Vaughn Tolle | December 22, 2006 at 02:12 PM
The Judges in “Brown versus The Board of Education” ruled IAW the law, before the Supreme Court reversed them.
And you’re saying that Kline didn’t when he filed those charges?Posted by: Jed | December 22, 2006 at 02:10 PM
How do you know that one of the former patients at Tiller’s Clinic didn’t request the action by the Attorney General. Ever hear of the woman who was rushed through the ‘late term abortion’ in Tiller’s clinic with no more explanation than “sign here, sit here and pay us this much.”
what are you MEN getting all worked up about anyway? Abortion is a hard choice to make and if men would keep it in their pants and not see women as things, the abortion issue would go away. But men are pigs and want it both ways.
I guarentee that if Men had to worry about pregnancy, they would not be so quick to discuss this issue.
If they had to worry about rape and unwanted pregnancy they would drop it
True, JM; reading the Kansas Supreme Court opinion in that case is very interesting; I commend it to your attention.
A law professor of mine was Paul Wilson, the deputy AG who was tasked with arguing the Brown case before SCOTUS. His remarks on the case were illustrative of the duty of an attorney to his client, and the duty of judges to the law. I will give you a very summarized version thereof here: Just about everyone involved in the case at the State level felt that school segregation was wrong; however, this did not stop the lower court judges nor me from arguing to support it, as, after all, that was the law. If it can be said an attorney is pleased to have lost a case, I was after the Supreme Court handed down its opinion in the Brown case.
If Phill Kline was really concerned about child rapists, then go after the hospital records for live births, as well as the abortion records. Who says all children impregnated by rape have abortions?
This is where I question Phill Kline and the the OR in the abortion record search.
Plus, with live births, wouldn’t it be easier to get a conviction of the child rapist with the baby’s DNA?
“Ever hear of the woman who was rushed through the ‘late term abortion’ in Tiller’s clinic with no more explanation than “sign here, sit here and pay us this much.”"
No, do you have any verification of that allegation? Was she kidnapped and dragged there in the first place?
Probably shouldn’t have brought up the fact that Clark is a democrat. I’ve met him several times and he does seem like an okay guy. Way back in the day, Clark was in legal practice with Vern Miller – something I heard, any way.
JM,I am not certain that being angry with Nola is justified. Rather, if I am understanding correctly, Phill did not do his homework, or this was just a meaningless political gesture from him. I am thinking the latter, though the law has never been a big interest of Kline’s from what I can tell.
bbuuttt sunny,
that makes too much sense and will not let the perverts claim their fame
Yes, Sunny, what you say is true if Mr. Kline’s original assertion as to the purpose of his investigation was true, that is, the failure to report child abuse by licensed medical professionals. As memory serves, in oral argument to the Kansas Supreme Court, under close questioning of one of the Justices, he more or less abandoned that ground and advanced (although I’m sure it was made in the lower court, too) the argument of looking for violations of the abortion statutes as the same apply to late term abortions and the reporting thereof.
About time someone came to their senses on this. Kline is just trying to vindicate himself and grab headlines. He needs to BUTT OUT of women’s lives and personal decisions. I know Dr. Tiller, and firmly believe he would not contribute to any woman’s abuse. He knows his practices have to be above reproach.
If it can be said an attorney is pleased to have lost a case, I was after the Supreme Court handed down its opinion in the Brown case. osted by: Vaughn Tolle | December 22, 2006 at 02:20 PM
Nice to converse with someone who was part of the legendary history of our country’s law. :)
“JM,I am not certain that being angry with Nola is justified. Rather, if I am understanding correctly, Phill did not do his homework, or this was just a meaningless political gesture from him. I am thinking the latter, though the law has never been a big interest of Kline’s from what I can tell.”Posted by: Steven Davis | December 22, 2006 at 02:23 PM
Perhaps so. I would love to have ‘Nola’ explain why she is so resistant to investigating Tiller’s Clinic and if it complying with State Law concerning the reporting of sexual offenders.
If there is nothing there, then good. But I have this feeling that Tiller has plenty to hide.
JM, for clarification, that was my summary of Professor Wilson’s comments on the Brown case; I was but 4 years old when that decision came down.
Professor Wilson was very interesting to converse with about the case; every year, on the anniversary of the decision (after he had assumed emeritus status), he would give a lunchtime lecture on the case. He tried, as a professor, to inculcate in the callow students a feeling for being a lawyer, much appreciated by me, at least.
But Pam,don’t call me a pig just because of my gender.That’s not nice.
I calls them like I sees them
if it walks like a duckand quacks like a duck
But JM if you only have a feeling that Tiller has something to hide, then that is not evidence. It takes evidence to file charges.
I have questioned many OR supporters why they don’t send someone in undercover with a camera to get Tiller on tape. And to this date, I’ve heard no response to this proposal. Do like Dateline does with the child molesters. Works everytime.
There was a Tiller patient on national news who got a late term abortion. She stated that the counseling was minimal and not informative. She was rushed through the procedure and wasn’t given any other information after the abortion.
It sounds to me there is a smoking gun there. Tiller’s Clinic is fighting way too hard for nothing to be wrong.
I suspect that Tiller knows he violated the law and is coming out with guns blazing avoiding prosecution by using political trickery and favors called in with Nola Folston.
It just smells bad, something is not right.
how much money did that woman get paid???
just askin
I suspect … so bring forth some evidence.
As for the woman who claimes (maybe) on national news that she was rushed through. There are a number of steps that preceed the abortion proceedure itself. She was likely referred there by another doctor. She would have had ample opportunity to change her mind.
Of course, District Attorney’s never make mistakes…
Just ask Mike Nifong aka Duke Rape case.
awwwww another case that MEN hate
geesh we are getting it all today
To try again (my first post on this has vanished into the ether): the basis for the dismissal is one of lack of legal authority. My understanding of the statutes giving the AG power to proceed in a case are as set out above somewhere: the involvement of the AG’s office must be requested by the local DA or County Attorney, or the Governor must direct the AG to pursue the matter. Neither necessary condition exists here, and thus the dismissal.
JM,
I know someone who went to Tillers and did receive counseling and information after the fact. The difference is that she asked for it.
She said that there were women who went who said, just do it, i don’t want to hear it and they did. Very little counseling, very little info because that was their request.
Tiller isn’t doing anything wrong but helping people who want to be helped. You may look at it as killing innocents but i look at it as population control and as long as it remains legal, Tiller is entitled to the same rights and regulations as every other medical practice.
First of all, what national news was this former Tiller patient on? If it is Fox News, then I suspect it right off.
If this woman truly feels she was wronged, then why isn’t she the one asking for an investigation?
It should be up to her, not Phill Kline. The way he did this, it has made the entire situation political. Plus, he gets his face on the television again. Oh boy, more money coming in for the Operation Rescue coffers.
“I suspect … so bring forth some evidence.” Posted by: hmmm … | December 22, 2006 at 02:44 PM
Yeah okay, I give up. People do not want to see justice done in a court of law.
This case has be obstructed politically, by hook and crook, WILLFULLY ignored by our own District Attorney and
…any other underhanded method used by those who forget that Justice is “Blind.”
If there is no case after the case has been heard, then fine. But let the case go forward.
You people stomp on the opinions of others when they have the full backing of the law to investigate and to carry out a case that would protect women from sexual predators that were possibly not reported by Tiller.
If you want to support Adolph Mengele Tiller and Propagantist side-kick Folston, the by all means do so.
JM,
I think Nola is one of the more conservative democrats I have ever met. Like Vaughn says above I wouldn’t think abortion rights would be high on her list.
I doubting Foulston’s action derived from anything she took personally. I can’t see where protecting Tiller from the consequences of breaking the law would amount to very good politics for Foulston.
What I think is more likely is that Kline has a political vendetta against Tiller. In the 2002 election, Tiller’s PAC poured a huge amount of money into the coffers of the Kline’s opponent. That guy, whose name I can never recall, nearly beat Kline.
It is widely suspected that Tiller’s PAC was behind the “Snoop Dog” anti-Kline mailings. Tiller undoubtedly hurt Kline in this year’s election.
So, while Kline will use abortion as a political wedge, I suspect he hates Tiller more.
I don’t see why my questioning Phill Kline’s intention of getting only the abortion clinics records and not all health care records of minor pregnant children as supporting any criminal activity of Tiller.
If Tiller really is doing these things that OR and Phill Kline are accusing him of, then go get the proof. It’s that simple.
The way Kline has handled this whole thing is political and suspect.
No, JM, you are wrong. I DO want to see justice done. It’s just that I want to see some evidence before I hang someone.
Like the Duke case; there is something called “due process.” I gather that in your world that would not exist for those you dislike.
“the full backing of the law”? Nope, you don’t have that.
sunny – wanna bet the “national news show” was O’Liely?
Vaughn Tolle: When I was attending graduate school at K.U., although not a law student, I also took a class in the K.U. law school from Paul Wilson. One of the best classes I ever took and Mr. Wilson was a great professor. Wilson did talk a lot about the Brown vs Topeka school board case. In later years, Paul Wilson was president of the Kansas Historical Society.
Several years later, I knew a professor from Johnson County Community College, probably in the 1980’s, but can’t think of his name now, who was also much involved in that “Brown/Topeka” case. In fact, I interviewed him on video tape about his knowledge but don’t know what happened to that tape.
Strangely, as I understand it, an earlier case in Merriam, Kansas, probably in the early 1950’s, came close to being the U.S. Supreme Court landmark desegregation case. Coincidentally, it would have been brought by a white woman named BROWN on behalf of the black children attending a segregated school in the South Park neighborhood. South Park is now a part of Merriam, adjacent to Overland Park, in Johnson County, Kansas.
The problem with this Merriam, Kansas, case was the segregated black school was physically in worse shape than the then new South Park School, which was all white. In fact, within the last three years, I drove past that little school and it is still in use, as a church.
Now, Vaughn, correct me if I am mistaken but I believe the U.S. Supreme Court in 1954 wanted a case where the black segregated school was in better physical shape than the nearby white school. The point they wanted to make was that regardless of the condition of the schools — SEGREGATION ITSELF WAS THE CULPRIT THAT NEEDED TO BE CHALLENGED.
It would be entirely fitting that Phill Klline bypassed the law to pursue charges against Dr. Tiller, since Klline apparently does not feel that the law applies to him.
Had he had a solid, non-political/religious case, he would have gone through the proper channels to proceed with a case against Tiller.
By his actions, Klline has proven that his agenda was strictly a personal crusade.
If there were actually evidence of crime, Klline could have/should have used legal means to process a case.
He chose not to, proving his anti-abortion agenda, despite the law.
Good bye, Phill, we are sorry that we knew you.
How the hell are you people going to get proof if Tiller is using attorney’s to block access!
man! you people are ignorant!
Hmmm…what you want to bet that O’Reilly presents an acerbic and scornful report on the goings on here in Wichita, and goes after Nola and Judge Clark?
Maybe Nola Foulston was only seeing that Phill Kline followed the legal procedure to file these charges. If it is true that Kline did not go about this the proper legal route, then the charges would have been dismissed down the road, after much court courts and wasting the court’s time.
With that said, perhaps Kline knew Foulston would get the charges dropped, then he can go on national news (Bill O’Reilly’s show perhaps) and once again blame an ‘activist judge’ for letting a criminal go. It’s a win-win for him.
He has made this circus and he will come out smelling like a rose to his Religious Right crowd.
Once again, JM, send in an undercover pregnant woman with a camera. Duh. It is so easy nowadays. The woman could control the whole conversation. If Tiller really does rush women through with late-term abortions, then catch him in the act.
This would be undeniable proof and no Tiller attorney would even know which pregnant woman was the undercover one.
No thanks to any of the suggestions.
People don’t want to protect women who may have been abused.
I’m done with this blog and Wichita.
JWink, I am very happy you were able to experience Prof. Wilson first hand. Your recollection may be correct, but I have no such memory from Prof. Wilson’s discussions.
A historical footnote (or two): the Supreme Court actually decided four school segregation cases, all under the name of Brown vs. Board of Education; the reason Topeka, Kansas got all the notoriety was because the SCOTUS clerk, when the appeals were consolidated, listed them in alphabetical order, and Brown was first.
While the Brown case was before the Supreme Court, the then-sitting Chief Justice either died or retired; this was in 1953, before the opinion in Brown was released, but after its oral argument. Once Earl Warren was confirmed as Chief Justice, he ordered reargument, with a view towards achieving a unanimous decision, which occurred. I have a memory from some source that if the Court had issued its opinion in 1953, Plessy v. Ferguson would have been upheld, and separate but equal (at least in the area of school segregation) continued; this is likely in the category of rank hearsay, but it is offered FWIW.
JM
are you fixed? Can you promise us that you will never father a child and leave the woman?
Don’t let the door hit you on the way out …
VT – and I remember the “Impeach Earl Warren” billboards that resulted from the decision.
Vaughn:
A KU guy? I didn’t have to pleasure to study under Professor Wilson, but I did work in the criminal defender clinic that bears his name, and have a signed magazine article he wrote on prison conditions.
I commend his book “A Time to Lose” on Brown v. Board. I second everything you wrote.
Rock chalk.
Geez JM,We’re sure going to miss you.Hahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!
please JM move to Utah
one more repuke vote GONE>>>>
YEA
seems to me that the men who protest so much over things such as Ted Haggard and Gays and Kline and abortion have much to hide.
I’d check out the junk in da trunk…
Kline probably has much to hide
JM,
It seems to me you are taking this just a little too personally… You don’t like that people question your statements and ask you for backing when they are providing backing for their own? Seems a bit hypocritical to me. If Kline really wanted to bring charges against Tiller, he should have gone through the correct avenues. It seems, for all appearances, that the reason he did not is because he did not have the evidence to do so, and knew he would not get the backing needed from either the governor or Nola Foulston. But I suppose this is all a “conspiracy theory” that they would simply dismiss it because of who he is. Regardless, as a member of the law, it is Phill Kline’s duty to uphold the law, which he himself failed to do when he did not follow the law to press charges. Further, the timing and method of his charges is also suspect. This reeks of an attempt at publicity, and a chance for a little more “Poor Phill” and mud-slinging on the behalf of our less-than-illustrious Attorney General. The majority of voting Kansans have spoken, and they do not agree with Phill Kline. Perhaps it is time he started listening…
From the far left – JM, in all seriousness, please don’t leave the blog because this thread seems to be against your beliefs.
You and I rarely agree, but all opinions are welcome and I, for one, sincerely hope that you stay.
If you do decide to leave, well, Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays and good luck.
From my perspective, left or right, you are always welcome, even if we get to flaming once in a while.
I don’t like abortions and personally I would never recommend one. But this is my personal view. What Tiller is doing is legal in Kansas. Until it can be proven Tiller is violating the law then it is not up to me to want to see the man branded with false charges.
But this whole Phill Kline charging Tiller, and on a Friday. so that O’Reilly will have a field day whipping their sheeple into a foamy frenzy. I suspect this more about Kline’s political future than the actual law.
C’mon back JM,relaxthink outside the boxdon’t take the blog too seriouslysmoke a doob with our resident drug addictsee the light
–the anti-golfnut
Yes, GMC; KU undergrad, Accounting and Business Administration, 1972; JD, 1979, KU law. I had Prof. Wilson for Criminal Law and Criminal Procedure classes my first year (prior to leaving compliments of the draft).
Did you get to experience the Hecker/Lovitch show?
I also commend “A Time to Lose” to anyone interested.
Rock chalk.
Clark and Activist judge Please.
He is the most ethiical man in Wichita.
and people loved the way he handled the Carr brothers case no?
VT
Didn’t have Lovitch; grad in 99 from law, after leaving teaching. Experienced the Heckler/Prater show. Always a hoot.
And yes, Prof. Wilson was quite a gentleman.
“smoke a doob with our resident drug addict”
Leave it to Golfnut to take a heartfelt comment to JM and turn it into an insult.
Par for the course, Nutz?
“and people loved the way he handled the Carr brothers case no?”
Not everyone Pam. I don’t think the brothers liked him.
But this whole Phill Kline charging Tiller, and on a Friday. so that O’Reilly will have a field day whipping their sheeple into a foamy frenzy. I suspect this more about Kline’s political future than the actual law.
BINGO
I didn’t read completely through all the comments so if this has been pointed out before I’m sorry. How you feel about Phil Kline is beside the point. For Tiller with his vast experience as an abortionist to determine a person’s mental health is a stretch for any open mind. Two signatures are necessary for this determinatin and there were always Tiller’s and a doctor employed by him. I guess we can forget about medical specalities anymore. Heart surgeon can do plastic surgeries. Plastic surgeons can you the next triple bypass and of course abortionists can treat your mental health. Does anyone but me see what these 30 cases merit looking at? Two democrates with an elevated view of who they are – Fulston and Sebelius – are subverting justice. Doesn’t surprise me!!
Maybe Kline will be on O’Lielly’s show again …
Not everyone Pam. I don’t think the brothers liked him.Posted by: hmmm … | December 22, 2006 at 03:30 PM
I’m wondering what that’s supposed to mean.From what I know of that case, those boys are lucky to be alive.With the heinous crime(s) they committed. Cops should have filled them with lead when they ran when coming to the apartment or whereever it was they were apprehended.
ksgrm – if there is a second DR then it seems to be according to proceedure. And I definitely do not see the conclusion that now dermatologists can now do brain surgery. Diagnosing depression is allowed by a ‘regular’ DR, not only a psychiatrist. And, has any evidence been presented that Tiller is representing himself as a psychiatrist? I haven’t seen any.
What does it mean KIA? Only that those against whom Clark ruled might not like him. I was being sarcastic.
If that is true about Tiller and another doctor employed by him signing regarding the mental health issue, then can’t that be challenged through the American Medical Association, or perhaps a former Tiller patient could instigate an investigation into that practice?
But the way Phill Kline has chosen to showboat today does not make his side look good. How can anyone take him at as his word if there really is an appropriate concern about Tiller’s practices?
awwww now we are bringing our AWESOME gov in the mix…even tho she had nothing to do with this.
why don’t all you repukes move to UTAH
Mitt Romney would love your vote
Thanks for the clarification. I was thinking you might have been suggesting the brothers had been wronged by the system.
Sensitive issue. One of the victims was my bro in laws college roommate.
After going back to read I had a small addition to add. Kline has been fighting for years to get these records, Tillers lawyers just kept stalling, with time running out and knowing Morrison and Sebelius are firmly in Tiller’s pockets he did the one thing he could do and that was file the charges while still in office hoping this would force Morrison’s hand in putting the case forward. JM don’t let this noisy majority push you out. We need people with your logic so the non-logics won’t break their arms patting themselves on the back.
oh get off it.
Pervert Phill has nothing to go on and this is a personal/religious vendetta
and it sould be over
Abortion is LEGAL so is the Death penalty so is bushy boys war
want to end murder? BRING OUR TROOPS HOME so they won’t get slaughtered for Dick Cheney’s Halliburton
Pam what this is about isn’t that sacred cow, legal abortion. It is about breaking of a law, that late term abortions are illegal UNLESS they threaten the life of the mother. Get over it.
KSGRM – there is no logic to what Klline did – he had to know that taking the action he did was against established law. He also had to know that the case would be tossed because he circumvented procedure. He is supposed to be the top LE official in the State of Kansas, therefore, he is duty bound to FOLLOW the law, even if he doesn’t agree with it.
If Klline wants to make law, he should seek election as a lawmaker. As AG, he has no right to take the law into his own hands.
Period.
His PERSONAL beliefs should never enter into his PROFESSIONAL (term used loosely) actions.
Phill the Pervert was just grandstanding for the anti-choice militia.
you want someone from the inside???
LISTEN closely
20 years ago, I found myself with child and a fiance who I guess couldn’t handle things and he split…
AFter much soul searching I decided to abort because I could not financially handle a child and I did not have any support system
I had to go for counseling BEFORE…signed papers and had to WAIT to make sure I had made a final decision.
On the day, I again spoke to people INSIDE and they could see I was conflicted. They gave me every opportunity to not proceed…they provided me with all kinds of information. In the end, I decided to proceed and the nice people were with me every step of the way.
afterwords, they held me while I cried and even drove me home because I had NO ONE.
I am conflicted every day but would I have done things different? NO
and now I have an awesome husband and 3 wonderful children
Again, if it is true Tiller is not following the law, then take the legal channels to investigate it. Don’t let Phil Kline take it to the Bill O’Reilly show. What does that help – just brings in more money for OR or O’Reilly?
I wonder why anyone hasn’t addressed the issue of”finding that multiple patients’ mental health would be seriously harmed if they did not have abortions”
This would seem like a major crock to me. Like the trauma of an abortion, not to mention of the late term variety, isn’t going to have an adverse affect on one’s mental health.That argument or reasoning makes no sense.
Abortion is a personal thing and nobody has the right to tell anyone else what they can and/or should do. The abortion opponents would get the abortion issue resolved if they would concentrate on prevention of unwanted pregnancies and not just out picketing and chanting.
Do something positive and I don’t believe Phill Kline is the best poster boy you can come up with for honesty and integrity.
see ya all don’t care about the truth because when it is given..it is ignored!
Pervert Phill can go cluck himself
It seems that many of the zealous supporters of Kline are missing the point – he did NOT follow correct LEGAL avenues to file these charges – plain and simple. And whether or not you agree with abortion, it is LEGAL, and it is NOT your place to sit in judgement. I don’t believe in abortion personally, but I also don’t believe I have the right to tell anyone else what they can or can’t do with their bodies either… And if Tiller really is doing illegal late term abortions, then SURELY Kline would have A) filed more than misdemeanor charges and B) followed LEGAL avenues to do so… it is such a blatant attempt at publicity shortly before he leaves office that it is laughable…
I would have preferred that it went through Kansas courts also but he was blind sided at every point. Records kept from him, lengthy legal proceedings to get records that should have been his to look at. Privacy had nothing to do with this issue. The names and other personal markers were all redacted. I know no one is going to change their mind about this issue. Our minds are firmly made up. But I do know women that had abortions right after they first became legal and they live with that reality daily. Unfortunately they are not as well adjusted to the loss as ‘leave my body alone’ seems to be.
it was just grandstanding and pervert phill has shot his wad.
wonder how many women he knocked up?
guys like he and Ted Haggard always leave a mess behind…
me thinks they doth protest too much
ABORTION IS ON ONES BUSINESS BUT THOSE WHO HAVE TO MAKE THAT CHOICE
GET OVER IT
“Thanks for the clarification. I was thinking you might have been suggesting the brothers had been wronged by the system.”
Definitely NOT! In fact, I think hanging would be too good for them.
hummm…no comments to the way things were handled with me and my experience?
I thought tiller shoved women through like cattle? Unless you know then shut the frik up!!!
Wendy has the point dead on, no matter what you position is on abortion.
and I won’t step into that minefield.
yup
Sooo…Pam has decided that because some men are irresponsible, then all men are pigs?
I suppose I could use the same “logic” that some women are prostitutes…..want to go to the “logical” conclusion on that one, Pam?
Merry Christmas to you, too. Sure glad I don’t have to come home to you….
Leave – from what I can tell you were carefully helped during a very difficult time. I cannot fault anyone involved – except perhaps the fiance – in your decision. I hope that you have healed and that your family is well.
raptor
you just proved my point!!!!
Merry christmas to you too :)
leave your pants zipped okay??? we don’t want you to propagate umkay???
I posted not to garner sympathy but to prove the point that Tiller does not treat women like cattle, but provides a caring service to women in their worst time
I was not a pro-life person until the summer of Operation Rescue. No, I didn’t nor have I ever walked in a protest. I saw an interview with the first couple to cross the line for the termination of a 6 month pregancy. THey were on the Phil Donahue show. The reason they opted for the abortion was because they had two children and the third was an accident. They had decided to divorce and this third child was just a complication they didn’t need. To see a child reduced to this decided it for me. Just a divorce complication.
that was one instance
so how many children do you adopt and or support now?
My hubby and I have 3 of our own children PLUS we provide foster care.
I also provide safety to women who choose to have an abortion
I understand where we are as a nation in the abortion argument. I’ve said before to think the Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade is going to solve the problem is fantasy. It’s persons hearts however that need to be changed.That being said, this late term business is just gross. At 6 months you are talking a baby at 24-27 weeks. I have young children so obviously, people will small kids are my peer group. Right now we have 3 different couple friends or co-workers who have children that were born in the 23rd week and survived and developed just fine and are as “normal” as any children their age.Because of this experience I can’t see these late terms as anything but murder.
I admire you for that. I have raised my three sons and also a son we took in at the age of 8 because his mother didn’t want him. I am a grandmother now and physically disabled and unable to mother children but I do provide food, clothing and shelter (we help them get an apartment and furnish it for them) on a regular basis for women who choose to have their babies.
We need more people like you who are able to do what you do. I would never discriminate against someone because they choose abortion but I would hope I could help them before that was necessary.
I proved your point? Sorry…I did nothing of the kind. Your mass generalization of the entire male gender based on example of a few is illogical, untrue, has no basis in fact and is ridiculous to the extreme.
I could use your “logic” and say that since a recent robbery suspect was driving a Chrysler, then all people driving Chryslers must be thieves.
Nope..sorry. I did not prove your ‘point’ in any way, shape or form. Your simplistic illogical statements make absolutely no sense whatsoever.
Raptor
oh yea you did prove my point and continue to do so :)
LEave, you are making your logical, well thought out decision become suspect.
not trying to do anything but share my experience to prove that Tiller does not operate a “cattle drive”
and I suspect that many of these bloggers really don’t have a clue as to the thought process it takes to go through what I did.
It was not a spur of the moment convience sort of thing like so many people stereo type it.
I is a deep personal decision and guys like that above really have NO clue and as long as their little world isn’t messed up, they don’t want to know the truth!
oh and yea, I still get pissed about it and the “man” that caused it!!!
My husband is awesome and was very understanding about the whole situation and helped me see that i was not a monster.
One can tell what type of man is supportive and not.
I learned the hard way
Something that I will never understand…why is it that a PERSONAL MEDICAL procedure between a woman and her doctor should be an issue at all? A majority of legislators are middle aged men…and they have absolutely no business telling a woman and her doctor what to do.
My 2 cents worth.
You are oversimplfying it for starters.It’s not a flu shot.
Like it or not there is a third person in that room. The unborn child. It is a fact many people want to overlook but a fact none the less.
I don’t think abortion is a two-sided issue. I am one of those in the middle. I am not for abortion on demand but I do feel there are circumstances that warrant an abortion.
But the two sides who are constantly fighting will NEVER agree on anything. So why in this country are there so many kids needing adoption? Why do we have one side protesting that life is sacred but yet won’t lift one finger to help a child in need?
Why are abortion supporters so adamant about their viewpoint? Is it because they like to kill babies? I don’t think so. this issue is more complicated than that.
The country, as a whole, do not value the children we have already. Until we Americans start taking care of the children and making everyone safe from abuse, then abortion will continue to be the dividing issue it has always been.
Lucee, you are preaching to the choir. I feel that abortion takes a life. I also work hard to help children who need it. I help pregnant girls who need it. Many of my colleagues do the same. We aren’t the ones telling the others they should be doing more we are doing it. I think you should look at the statistics of who donates the most to worthy social causes. The statistics show overwhelmingly that the left give only a small fraction of what the right gives. Some do and others talk about it.
THE LEFT give a lot more than you know…they just don’t make a public showing
this issue is not a left/right issue
Something that I will never understand…why is it that a PERSONAL MEDICAL procedure between a woman and her doctor should be an issue at all? A majority of legislators are middle aged men…and they have absolutely no business telling a woman and her doctor what to do.
My 2 cents worth.
Posted by: raptor |
sorry I misjudged you
You just can’t make stuff like this up. What a fiasco. I cannot believe I pay this man’s salary.
Right on ksgrm: Its about time somebody set these people straight. I get so sick and tired of hearing from the “keep those babies dying crowd” how prolifers only care about the unborn. As far as who gives more, left or right, all you have to do is remember back a few years ago when somebody got a hold of Clinton and Gores tax returns. Their charitable giving was pathetic. I don’t think it totaled 500.00$ between the two of them. Clinton even wrote off some old underwear and other clothing items he gave away as charitable deductions. And don’t try to tell me prochoicers give quietly and don’t take it as tax deducts. The lefts idea of giving is for the government to take it from working people and give it to the poor.
we don’t anymore…
now he is JO Co’s responsibility
oh a so thoughtful post from Mac and cheese.
nothing was ever said about Clinton in this thread
but now that he is in>>>
did you know there are more abortions performed now under bush’s reign than there where when Clinton was President
no comment???
must be because this economy continues to suck and people can not afford anything
Pam what are you trying to say? I must have missed your message. The economy is better that it has been in years. The rate (4.7%)of unemployment is so low that it is considered full employment by economists. What this means is that everyone that wants to is working. I guess I should wait to celebrate that one though because if the minimum wage rate goes up $2 an hour the unemployment numbers will rise like a helium ballon. You learn that in economics 101 also. Business will lay off those least productive workers in order to pay this inflated rate. There go the jobs for seniors and young workers.
not going to respond to the RW talking points memos
but if you are interested..google
abortion rates under Clinton and Bush.
they are lower under clinton.
that means not as many…
reasons???
Chris, I’ve given to many things and I have never ever filed it on a tax return.
But I have no doubt that republicons make sure they get that tax deduction to the penny.
I’m sick of the ‘give birth at any cost, treating women like incubators’ crowd. I’ll bet the tragedy of that girl in Hutch who dumped her baby escapes you. And I’ll bet you think she needs punished.
Notice what Phill Kline did NOT press charges for? He didn’t press charges for not reporting suspected abuse of children. Just the fact that he didn’t like the reason- which is still perfectly legal for a mental health exception!
Two words for Bush fan(atics) – Robin Lowman.
perhaps you haven’t been paying attention grm. Those jobs, all low wage jobs. MORE working poor, more poverty, more desperation.
Less sex education, more drug abuse. The only people this economy is great for are the rich and Chinese.
I was appalled when I heard just now on national news that those 15 cases that were prosecuted for abortions after 6 months were for women??? 10 to 22. Who is looking out for these children? Yes Kansas is once again in the national news. This time not for our state board of educations decision to have an alternative to evolution presented to our school children but because we are one of only 2 states (California is the other) in the nation who have doctors who preform late term abortions.
If the Religious Righties (who are mostly pro-life) actually were taking care of others in our country, then we would not have any homeless people and all the states would have each and every child needing a loving home, would be able to place them.
As I see it, at Tiller’s clinic, the best way to reduce abortions is that the protesters line up and take each woman entering the clinic and offer to take their baby and raise it. When you do that, then maybe abortions will not be needed.
This never was a debate about Clinton or Gore and how much money they donated to charity.
And grm, you think it’s a good idea that a 10 year old has a baby? Regardless of Tiller’s invovlement, that 10 year old would have still been pregnant anyway.
I can’t even imagine.
What national news was that on?
So, lets go after the 10 yr old’s doctor that first diagnosed her as pregnant. Why not go after her parents at that time? Why just pick to go after Tiller? There are many avenues to catch these child rapists – not just Tiller.
I saw the PDF on Witchita’s front page. Lot of young’uns given abortions. Ten year old, fifteen year old.
Kline says a woman’s mental health is a technicality? Only a reich-wing fundy would argue that women don’t have brains therefore it can’t be used as a health reason. Maybe the women he hangs around with.
Thankfully two women with brains, Sebelius and Foulston, stood up to this fascist and threw his little jihad out of court.
Of course it’d be faux news!
Yeah these people act as if Tiller actually impregnated these girls when all he did is help them.
I’m just so sick of Tiller being demonized. The man could give up and go do something far more easy, go on to get rich. But he knows the stories of these women, and knows how important his service is to them.
Doug have you updated your page yet?
I’d love to see what you’ve written about it.
Lucee maybe the righties should just handle the homeless problem the way the lefties handle the unborn problem. Just line them up and shoot them. Problems gone!! By the way I am not blaming the 10 year old pregnant girl on Tiller but what are we doing as a society to stop this. By offering them an easy out at an abortion clinic we let the real culprit go and the 10 year old with her problem will be swept under the same rug she was in when her problem was discovered.
Political Mom, I just got back from work so the entire events have gone rather quickly. I did get a call early in the morning for some advice of some PI stuff but didn’t know what it was connected to, apparently this was the matter. However the situation has resolved itself. The only issue now is if Phill Kline’s license to practice law can be revoked for abuse of power. Any attorney who uses his position to file unnecessary or harassing lawsuits can be disbarred. Given Kline’s history of unethical behavior and this latest action it is in the realm of possibility. Morrison won’t do it because he’ll be accused of playing politics. However a judge can take action if he finds it necessary.
Then again since Kline won’t win a re-election as DA perhaps nobody will pay it any mind.
ksgrm, I hope to GOD that girl is getting some help for whatever reason, a 10 year old should never be pregnant in the first place. But it tells me that the girl was either already being investigated or Tiller reported it, because there were no charges filed against him for not reporting it.
I’m just so sick of these kids being in families where their lives suck so bad, and nobody does anything about it.
if we are lucky, pervert phill will just go away
JM WAIT!
Take germie with ya!
Junior what do you fear from someone having a position differing from yours. Are you so sure you are always right or do you doubt that you are ever right.
Pmom my impression was that this information came from that batch of records that were finally submitted.
If I am wrong I will be glad to admit it. We have to do something to remove these children from these environments.
Oh spare me germie.
JM is a grown man older than me. Supposedly he is a veteran. And he wants to get all pissy because his is a kook minority opinion on a blog? Hey that aint about me being right or wrong. That’s about him. Good riddance.
And no it would not hurt my feelings a bit if you joined him. About time Kansas was taken back from the fringe right.
JR most people who know me would consider me a moderate. How would your friends rate you? Just wondering.
I am not a lefty, I am a RADICAL.
Whoops, GRM wasn’t talking to me!
Sorry, my bad.
You do not strike ME as a moderate.
The opinion of the blog or my friends would be that I am ultra liberal. This is the only sensible position. It brings balance. I am a reformed conservative. The conservatives have invalidated conservatism for all but the rich or righteous few. And there are not many who fit that niche. Most people just don’t know it. Were it not so, I too would be more moderate.
JM,”Ever hear of the woman who was rushed through the ‘late term abortion’ in Tiller’s clinic with no more explanation than “sign here, sit here and pay us this much.”"
I’ve heard about a lot of mythical women who went to Tiller. When I’ve tried to check out those stories that had enough detail to check on, they all turned out to be patently fictional. The anti’s propaganda machine has been working so much overtime that it’s gotten sloppy!I do know that when I took my daughter to Tiller after her rape, he was nothing but kind and patient, and went through all the alternatives with her before agreeing to do her abortion.
Women and girls who have abortions are all gonna burn in hell! Especially those women who have abortions who believe that Jesus Christ is their Lord and Saviour!!!
That goes double for gays,lesbians, transgenders, all types of queers and hippies!
Statement issued late today by Attorney General’s Office
Yesterday, December 21, 2006, at 4:37 pm, the Office of Attorney General filed criminal charges against Dr. George Tiller of Wichita , Kansas . Mr. Tiller’s attorneys first made the charges public when they held a news conference in Wichita at 11:15 am today, Friday, December 22, 2006.At 1:00 pm I was notified by the District Attorney of the 18th Judicial District that she had filed a motion and sought and obtained a hearing without notification of this office to dismiss the charges. That motion was granted. To my knowledge there was not any attempt to notify myself or this office of this motion nor its consideration by the District Attorney or the Court.
Immediately, this Office initiated efforts to contact the judge to move for reconsideration. I responded to the District Attorney within 15 minutes asking for copies of her filings. They were forwarded to me within the next hour. Our efforts to contact judges to file our motion for reconsideration were unsuccessful and we were unable to file the motion in person on Friday afternoon due to the inability to locate a judge.As a basis for her motion the District Attorney cited Kansas statues that require the Attorney General to file certain actions when directed to do so by the Governor or either branch of the Kansas legislature. KSA 75-702 and 704. The District Attorney then argues that the Attorney General does not have inherent power to file charges other than those articulated in those statutes. This argument is flawed. As Attorney General I have initiated hundreds of filings without the permission of the legislature or the Governor and consistent with my common law and statutory authority of the office. The statutes provided by the District Attorney are simply requirements to file in certain instances; not prohibitions.Based on her flawed legal reasoning the District Attorney argued, without our participation, that this Office could not file charges without her consent.KSA 22-3103 provides that if inquisition evidence and testimony “discloses probable cause to believe that a crime has been committed…the attorney general…may file such testimony, together with his complaint or information…against the person or persons … and a warrant shall there upon be issued for the arrest of such person … as in other criminal cases.”This authority is consistent with the broad constitutional, statutory and common law authority of the Office of Attorney General.Similarly, K.S.A. 22?3201, a statute of basic criminal procedure, provides that “prosecutions in the district court shall be upon complaint, indictment or information” (K.S.A. 22-3201(a)) and that such information may “be signed by the county attorney, the attorney general or any legally appointed assistant or deputy of either.” K.S.A. 22-3201(b).K.S.A. 22-2202(17) defines “Prosecuting attorney” to mean “any attorney who is authorized by law to appear for and on behalf of the state of Kansas in a criminal case, and includes the attorney general, an assistant attorney general, the county or district attorney, an assistant county or district attorney and any special prosecutor whose appearance is approved by the court.”“The attorney general is the chief law enforcement officer of the state. State ex rel. v. Rohleder, 208 Kan. 193, 194, 490 P.2d 374 (1971).As a courtesy to the District Attorney I initiated efforts yesterday early afternoon to meet with her to consult regarding this filing and prior to filing this case. I, Mr. Eric Rucker, my Chief Deputy and Mr. Steve Maxwell, Assistant Attorney General, signed into Ms. Foulston’s office yesterday afternoon at approximately 3:30 pm. I met with the District Attorney for approximately 1 hour and she acknowledged the jurisdiction of this office and indicated that she would not object to the filing. The case was filed at 4:37 pm.The charges brought are the result of a multi-year investigation involving the review of thousands of pages of documents, numerous sworn statements and testimony by witnesses and expert review of records and documents. The investigation was delayed for a little over two years by the Kansas Supreme Court and this office only received the relevant medical records from Mr. Tiller’s clinic on October 24, 2006.The District Attorney, without notification to this office nor the opportunity to be heard has approached a judge not familiar with the evidence and obtained a dismissal. We will seek an emergency reconsideration of this decision.The District Court judge overseeing this investigation has found probable cause to believe that crimes have been committed and that evidence of the crimes is found in the medical records. Now, a Sedgwick County District Court Judge found probable cause to believe that Dr. Tiller committed those crimes listed in the complaint. The District Attorney has sought to dismiss a case in which two courts have found probable cause to believe that crimes have been committed.This office, as long as I am Attorney General, will endeavor to abide by its oath to enforce the laws of the State of Kansas . When evidence of crimes is presented, we shall investigate and when such evidence rises to the legal standard to support criminal charges, we will prosecute.Dr. Tiller is presumed innocent by law and the allegations within the complaint are mere allegations. The complaint is now public due the news conference of Mr. Tiller’s attorneys and the following provides a summary of Kansas law and the complaint.Summary of Complaint/InformationA. The Law Protects Patients from Legal JeopardyKansas law does not place the women or children who seek abortion under any criminal or legal jeopardy. Kansas law specifically states that the patient cannot be guilty of any crime and that the law’s prohibitions only apply to the doctor who performs the abortion or who causes the abortion to be performed.B. The Identity of the Patients is ProtectedAttorney General Phill Kline does not desire the identity of the women who have had abortions and will file motions as this case proceeds to protect the identity of all patients requesting that their identity not be revealed in any fashion in any public documents or open court.C. Statement by the Attorney GeneralStatement by Attorney General Kline: “The complaint speaks for itself, the identity of the patients will not be sought or revealed by my Office. These are accusations and Mr. Tiller is presumed innocent unless proven guilty in a court of law. The investigation is ongoing.”D. The LawKansas law restricts post viability abortion unless two doctors find either: a) the mother’s life is in jeopardy if the abortion is not performed; or b) “a continuation of the pregnancy will cause a substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function of the pregnant woman.” KSA 65-6703(a)(2).The law requires this finding to be made by the physician performing the abortion and that the physician performing the abortion also have “a documented referral from another physician not legally affiliated with the physician performing or inducing the abortion” that also finds that “a continuation of the pregnancy will cause a substantial or irreversible impairment of a major bodily function.” KSA 65-6703(a).Kansas law requires that the medical facility in which the abortion is performed and the physician performing or inducing the abortion to report the reasons and basis for the determination that “a continuation of the pregnancy will cause a substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function of the women” to the Kansas Department of Health and Environment.Violating any of the provisions of this act is a Class A misdemeanor, punishable by up to one year in jail, a $2,500 fine or both. Although the late-term abortion statute states that “upon a second or subsequent offense†for violation of this statute that the person is guilty of a severity level 10, non-person felony;” Kansas Supreme Court case law has interpreted such provisions to require a previous conviction before a person can be charged with a felony. (KSA 65-6703(g); State v. Bandy, 25 Kan. App. 2nd 1096 (1998) rev. denied (1999)). The penalty for a Class 10 non-person felony is presumptive probation.Kansas law also provides that performing a criminal late-term abortion may be a basis to revoke a person’s license to practice medicine. KSA 65-2836. Furthermore, KSA 65-2837(b)(5) defines unprofessional conduct for a medical professional as including assisting, performing or inducing a criminal abortion.E. The ComplaintThe complaint is comprised of 30 counts of alleged violations of Kansas abortion laws, KSA 65-6703.F. Summary of Allegations in the Public Records Found in theComplaint/InformationThe patients range in age from 10-22 years of age. The gestational ages of the fetuses range from 25 weeks to 31 weeks.In every instance the life of the mother was not in jeopardy.In every instance a mental health diagnosis was provided by the referring physician and the defendant as the justification for the late term abortion except in one case where no diagnosis was provided.In nine cases the pregnant woman or child was diagnosed as having “Major Depressive Disorder, Single Episode.”In four cases the pregnant woman or child was diagnosed as having “Acute Stress Disorder.”In two cases, two different diagnoses were reached. In one of these cases one diagnosis was “Acute Stress Disorder” and the other was “Anxiety Disorder.” In the other case the two differing diagnoses were “Anxiety Disorder” and “Adjustment Disorder.”In three cases, it is alleged that the clinic reported to KDHE that the fetus was not viable when the defendant’s medical records indicate that the fetus was viable.In all cases, it is alleged that the defendant failed to report the basis or reasons for the late term abortion pursuant to Kansas law.G. Statute of LimitationsThe subpoenas for the records were originally issued in September 2004. The Kansas Supreme Court first accepted jurisdiction in this case on October of 2004. At the time the Court accepted jurisdiction it effectively stayed this investigation pending its decision. The Court did not render a decision until February of 2006. The documents were provided to investigators in the Office of Attorney General on October 24, 2006, effectively providing a two year delay in the investigation.Kansas law originally provided a two-year statute of limitations for prosecuting criminal late-term abortions. This means that a criminal complaint charging such a crime would have to be filed within two years of the act or the state would be prohibited from prosecuting the crime.The Kansas legislature and Governor, however, extended the statute of limitations for such crimes to 5 years effective on July 1, 2005. This means that the new five year statute of limitations applies to all alleged criminal activity where the previous two-year time limit had not run at the time the new law became effective. In other words, the statute had already expired for all activity on or prior to June 30, 2003 prior to the effective date of the new law and, therefore, the previous two year statute of limitations applied and those actions are now barred. For any activity, however, where the old statute of limitations had not run (activity on or after July 1, 2003) the new five-year statute of limitations applies and those actions can be initiated anytime prior to July 1, 2008.By the time the investigators for the Attorney General’s office obtained the files on October 24, 2006, twenty-eight of the files subpoenaed by the Court in September 2004 relating to this defendant had expired under the statute of limitations on any alleged criminal activity.The Complaint contains allegations and Dr. Tiller is presumed innocent by law.
Although many want to turn this into a broad-based debate on abortion the fact is that this is a legal case. A judge has ruled that Kline over-stepped his authority in attempting to usurp the local DA. He apparently did not follow legal proceedures as required. That is a failing on his part as an attorney.
I have seen a lot of accusations above about Tiller; supposedly “saw a national news show” etc. But, very little in the way of substantiation of those accusations.
Kline will soon be a DA in JoCo. If I am correct, that will place him in the job that has authority to prosecute such matters in that County. Since his other big target is there I am sure he will successfully prosecute them. With that successful prosecution under his belt he will be in a much stronger position to go after Tiller.
Or NOT …
If your daughter was raped, Jed, then why did she become pregnant? Wouldn’t you have helped her with preventaive measures?Tiller went though all the alternatives with her? I doubt it. I knew a nurse who worked with Tiller, the last thing he’s interested in alternatives. I think you spin a lot of propaganda for the pro abortion side.
I think Phil Kline is on a witch hunt, but Tiller is no one that I have any respect for, in fact I think he’s more nuts than Kline.
“If your daughter was raped, Jed, then why did she become pregnant?”
It takes a fair amount of nerve to ask that question, MC.
Really.
Do you deny that women can get pregnant from rape?
Really.
Tiller is the biggest fucking joke ever. He ran coupons in the paper for discounts on abortion procedures if a woman had it done by a certain date, he has said brilliant things like “I’ve never had a fetus talk to me”, he’s called malformed babies “monsters”, he celebrates Roe vs Wade by doing as many free abortions as he can do in one day. He’s made a fool of himself by pretending that he tries to adopt children out in order to boost his image. Anyone who can destroy innocent human life for a living and sleep well at night is as sick as it gets.
At what age should a child be able to obtain an abortion w/o the parent’s consent?
Bless you Mary. A female voice of reason
WsClark, of course I think women can get pregnant from rape, but Jed claims to have such great communication with his kids. Why didn’t his daughter tell him if she was raped? Maybe an abortion could have been avoided. What I really think is that Jed creates stories to make a point.Tiller is not the kind, understanding doctor who encourages women to think before they have an abortion. What a joke!
If you don’t believe that, MC, then why would you make such a statement?
Victims of rape do not always come forward immediately. In fact, many rapes go unreported because of fear, shame and a lack of faith in the authorities.
Personally, I would never challenge a man’s claim that his daughter had been raped.
Perhaps you have more faith in your ability to pass judgment than I do.
ksgrm – you obviously missed my point. The pregnant 10-yr old girl had to have been diagnosed as being pregnant by someone. I doubt it very much if the 10yr old diagnosed herself. This is when the pregnancy should have been reported. Why is it always Tiller’s fault?
I don’t know Tiller and I don’t like abortions – but if the abortion opponents really want to stop abortions – then get at the root of the problem. Get the number of unwanted pregnancies down and stop all this useless protesting and driving that stupid abortion truck around town. Your side is not making any friends. In fact, this little stunt by Phill Kline today, just makes your side look stupid.
I agree with you lucee, the tactics used by groups like OR just backfire. If we want tosee abortions go away, then we have to deal with the underlying causes. As long as there are unwanted pregnancies, there will be abortions.I think most of us can at least agree that abortion is a sad thing and possibly the hardest decision a woman can make in her life. Tiller once said that he wanted it to be “a first class experience” What a stupid, insensitive, moron.
Like I stated before, I don’t know Tiller and I have no use for his clinic. With that said, there is still a matter that abortion is legal in Kansas and what Tiller does is legal. I want to see abortions as being rare. I would love to see every baby wanted and loved by their parents. But let’s face it, in today’s society that is just not going to happen.
Has any survey ever been done as the statistics of the abortions done at Tiller’s clinic? Is there any study anywhere as to what the common reason given for wanting abortions? Has there been anyone that has had the courage to go in and really find out what the truth is and what the rumors are?
Unwanted pregnancies.Except in extreme cases (rape/incest and birth control failure) – everyone knows what causes it. Be responsible and take responsibility for your actions (which of course the first of the extreme isn’t anyone’s “fault”).If it is simple unwanted pregnancy abortion is the most selfish of acts possible.There’s another life inside you as well as millions of lives wanting a baby that can’t have one.Unwanted, someone wants it. You pro-choice people so compassionate? How about showing some for the unborn and those unable to conceive.
But the people who are unable to conceive will usually use fertility clinics. But then when these people let the fertility clinics dispose of the unused cells in the garbage, how is that any different than abortion? If life is sacred, then why is disposal in the garbage okay?
Good point, Mr Kia. I once heard that there is no such thing as an unwanted child, only misplaced ones.
MC, where do you get these “quotes” from Dr. Tiller?
Who said it was ok lucee? There will never be accurate reports from abortions. What woman could bare the agony of telling the truth… “I was iresponsible and just killed a life to fix it.” How many abotions of choice ‘pro-choicers’ do you think will tell the truth? How many will say ‘I just don’t want to be responsible for my actions’?
The cold fact is that the majority of abortions are done to reject responsibility
Where did everyone go? A little truth in the disgusting act of burning an unborn child to DEATH make a few of you queassy enough to not respond? Think about the kids that were liqified.
whoops. typo central there
From Tiller himself, that’s why he’s rarely interviewed, he has a tendancy to say really stupid things.Everything I quoted Iread in the Eagle.
Health care records are studied all the time for whatever reasons such as trends of certain diseases, surgeries performed, etc. Surely there is paperwork that is completed when going intoTiller’s clinic. Every health care provider has to prove that written records are being kept. There are certain regulations that must be followed for the HIPPA rules of health care records.
Sol – you make it sound like every single woman that gets an abortion is about their selfish need to get one. How do you know that to be true? Have you witnessed each and every one of Tiller’s patients?
If not, then you cannot say for sure what is going on.
What’s wrong with Tiller giving away free abortions or discounts? Many businesses do that. Antis whine that Tiller is in it for the money but he started his business because he saw how poorly women were treated elsewhere and the high prices that were charged. He provided them a nice environment (which the antis try to disrupt) and cut the price well more than half. So he provided free abortions to poor women, free health care is a great idea. If he, as the antis claimed, were in it just for the money he wouldn’t have done that.
The antis lie about him so much, just like how Bill O’Reilly had a fake guest on his show whining about Tiller. Kline’s actions today were an example of how antis are willing to break the law for their jihad. Now I’m just hoping the Double Jeopardy law applies so Tiller can’t be charged with any more so-called crimes.
And that’s it isn’t it?
Always with you Republicans it goes back to blaming the victim. Personal responsibility!! you cry.
You bang it like a drum on EVERY issue.
See? That let’s YOU evade any responsibility to act as members of a truly pro life society.
Sol, Looking at a dead baby, bright red from being burned with saline, is not what the pro choice sides wants to look at. It’s so much easier to say it’s not human and can’t feel pain.
Abortion is what it is, JR. No matter how it’s justified, that doesn’t change what it is.
Now you’re the one who’s lying about Tiller, Doug.
This clinches it: with Judge Clark’s dismissal of these “charges” against Dr. Tiller, Phillllllll Kline has sunk to Fred Phelps status as an impotent, hateful, laughingstock.
Man. Those GOP nutjob precinct committepersons in Johnson County better step aside. The blowback from their selection of Kline could turn the DA’s position over to any dead skunk that chooses to run against him.
Phillll Kline: the seemingly permanent black eye on the state of Kansas.
MC, I Googled and searched the WE site and could not come up with a single quote from Dr. Tiller.
How about a link to prove your point?
Unlike you Mary I know Tiller, I’ve spent time with him and talked with him and am friends with members of his staff. You, on the other hand, hear propaganda and hearsay from people who don’t like him and want him shut down. I believe my accounts are more plausible and reliable, while yours are from known liars and felons.
KELLY, FORMER DR. TILLER PATIENT: Well, it was a five-day process. And when I first went in, they have counseling that they offered. It’s a group counseling with other women that are going through the same thing. And during the five days, they insert expandable whatever into the cervix to slowly dilate you through the five-day process.
And about the third or fourth day Dr. Tiller came in and injected into the amniotic sack a saline solution, which suffocated and burned my baby to death. And on the last day they put you in a room with other women — there’s, like, maybe six to 10 beds in a big room. And every woman is lying there. And they kind of go down the line and whatever’s ready, you know, they decide that you’re dilated enough and they put you in wheelchair and wheel you out to another room.
And in this other room there’s basically a toilet, and they told me to sit on the toilet, lean on the nurse, and push, push my baby into a toilet. And after that they wheel you into another room, to remove all the, you know, afterbirth.
And really, that’s the only two times I ever saw the doctor was when he injected the saline solution and when he finished the process by removing the afterbirth. And this is all very graphic, and I think that that’s very important that people know that that’s going on in our country.
O’REILLY: Sure. Absolutely. And I applaud your courage. Now, did the doctor say anything to you?
KELLY: No. I mean — you know, what I remember today is that no one ever said anything to me about what was going to happen during that five-day process or what was going to happen when I left that clinic or 10 years down the road what was going to happen.
O’REILLY: All right. But Tiller himself, when he injected the fetus with the killing agent and then when he took the afterbirth, he never said anything to you at all?
KELLY: “This will all be over soon.”
O’REILLY: “This will all be over soon.” What happened to the body?
KELLY: I have no idea. I left my baby dead in the toilet.
O’REILLY: All right. Then when you got out from after the process was over, you went where?
KELLY: After he had finished the process that day?
O’REILLY: Right.
KELLY: To a hotel room and then back home.
O’REILLY: So you just left the clinic right after you discharged the baby, the dead baby, and you put your coat on and went out to a hotel.
KELLY: Yes.
O’REILLY: How do you feel about that, the whole thing?
KELLY: I’m disgusted. I’m disgusted that women are told that they have a choice, yet no one tells us what that choice is or what that choice is going to do to us or to the baby, for that matter. I mean, very few people, I think, know that this is what happens. It’s not just an easy solution. It just — it’s not an answer to any problem. It just creates other problems.
O’REILLY: What happened to you after the abortion?
KELLY: Many things. I mean, I was traumatized, so I had lots of symptoms of posttraumatic stress disorder. I had very low self-esteem. I was promiscuous, I used drugs, I had eating disorders. Lots of horrible things.
And when I think that, you know, what would the worst-case scenario be, that I have my child? That would have been better than having gone through all of the affects of the depression, suicidal thoughts, all of that that happened afterwards.
O’REILLY: Now Kelly, don’t beat yourself up. You were 13 years old, you were 14 when the abortion happened, you know. You know better now. You’re courageous. You came on. You told the nation what’s happening in Kansas. Very few people will do that. And you know, we appreciate your courage very much. Thank you.
No links, MC?
I think that you just might be throwing the trash out the back door.
First you accuse JED of lying about his daughter and now you’re making up quotes for Dr. Tiller.
You really do your side of the debate a great disservice.
Why should anyone believe anything you say?
FW, O’Rielly also said that he would never trust the Bush Administration if they did not find WMD.
So much for “Fair and Balanced.”
A Billo transcript has as much credibility as David Duke at a Holocaust Denial Convention.
Based upon that finding, at 4:37 yesterday afternoon, the judge issued a summons for Dr. Tiller to appear in the Sedgwick County district court to answer those charges on Wednesday, December 27, at 10:30 a.m.
Prior to filing the charges, I (KLINE)consulted an discussed the case with the Sedgwick County district attorney (FOLSON.) I arranged for a meeting yesterday afternoon. Myself (KLINE,) Mr. Maxwell and Mr. Rucker
… signed into her (FOLSON) office, which will be reflected on her office log at approximately 3:30 in the afternoon.
We met in her (FOLSON)office, her chief deputy in the criminal division was present for part of the conversation. His name is Kevin O’Connor. During that conversation, I informed the district attorney of the charges we were considering filing. I (KLINE) discussed them with her (FOLSON). She (FOLSON) questioned whether I would have jurisdiction as Johnson County district attorney to pursue those charges once I (KLINE) left this office. I (KLINE)told her (FOLSON)I would not. But she (FOLSON) did not question the authority of the office of the Attorney General in filing the charges.
And she (FOLSON) specifically stated in response to my query that she would not object to the filing of those charges.
And she (FOLSON) specifically stated in response to my query that she would not object to the filing of those charges.
And she (FOLSON) specifically stated in response to my query that she would not object to the filing of those charges.
And she (FOLSON) specifically stated in response to my query that she would not object to the filing of those charges.
And she (FOLSON) specifically stated in response to my query that she (FOLSON) would not object to the filing of those charges.
she (FOLSON) would not object to the filing of those charges.
she (FOLSON) would not object to the filing of those charges.
she (FOLSON) would not object to the filing of those charges.
she (FOLSON) would not object to the filing of those charges.
she (FOLSON) would not object to the filing of those charges.
Subsequently, without notice to this office either by the judge who considered the motion, who was not the judge who reviewed the evidence to file the charges, nor notice to this office by the district attorney of Sedgwick County, she (FOLSON) filed a motion for dismissal based on flawed facts and flawed legal reasoning. I (KLINE) was not notified that this was being filed or considered until after an order had already been issued, dismissing the case.
OREILLY transcript from a video which cannot be posted here.
O’Reilly has the same level of credibility as OJ Simpson.
OJ will find the “real” killers any day now.
O’Reilly will be “fair and balanced” the day after that.
“I once heard that there is no such thing as an unwanted child, only misplaced ones.”
Who would’ve done that?
OREILLY is the one who blocked OJ SIMPSON’S new book from being published and shown on Fox owned channel, your channel 4 (Cox Cable.)
He put his own career on the line to stop that travesty.
You Kansans are sure ignorant. Just type anything that comes out of your wheat-filled skulls.
Kelly Dickerson, the alleged patient works for an anti-abortion organization. She also doesn’t happen to be a former patient of Tiller’s put was parroting the claims of a former patient of Tiller’s who lied about her experiences at the clinic.
http://www.maggotpunks.com/mp.html for the video and the story behind the story.
O’Reilly is on Fox to Christ sakes!
It was his own network that promoted that crap and it was only after the rest of the world threw a fit that Billo “stopped” the programing.
Bill O’Reilly talks out his butt more than an eighty year old man on a beer, cabbage and baked beans diet.
BTW – I am from Kentucky.
FatWrinkles,
You ACTUALLY believe that O’reilly is a credible and accurate source? Oh well, whatever…http://mediamatters.org/issues_topics/people/billoreilly
What kind of a crook do you have to be to dismiss 30 criminal charges against one of your pals?
Foulston has sold out the law to her own political agenda, and she knew which judge to pick when she went judge shopping.
Neither Foulston nor this judge have any credibility.
Welcome to Wichita, come rape our children.
So we call everyone but Tiller a liar – call Kline a liar – and just move on as if the charges were untrue. I think we all know they were true. A democrat DA dismissed the charges in a very heavy handed way and abortion is once again protected.
Lucee no records were coming out of Tillers clinic that is why Kline went after them. They claimed privelage. The HIPAA laws have nothing to do with information that doesn’t contain personal information or personal markers by which the patient might be identified. Tiller stalled as long as he could then spent over $250,000 from his PAC to get Morrison elected because he (Morrison) would look more favorably at his clinic. Morrison won’t go after him. Can’t kill your cash cow you know.
Just business as usual in Kansas. Some days I’m not to proud to call this state my home.
No JR I won’t leave because that would just leave the inmates in charge.
The Website ownersmaggotpunks.com is soon to be indicted with charges of filing “plagerized” stories to news agencies. They would alter the plagerized story to fit their political agenda and leftist views.
Federal prosecutors say the first action will be to shut down the Website and confiscate all electronic equipment. It is reported that one person associated with maggots.com is under investigation for distribution and selling of illegal narcotics.
Can’t even post a nickname?
Nola requested that the charges be dropped because Klline did not follow legal procedure – read the facts.
Judge Clark is one of the most respected judges in Kansas – the facts dictated that he dismiss the charges.
And Klline is an idiot.
And so are you.
50 million aborted Americans. That’s a LOT more than 6 million Jews, baby! 50 million aborted Americans. That’s 50 million potential taxpayers. A pity Americans are euthanizing themselves while constantly allowing millions upon millions of illegal immigrants into America. The fate of the American people is sealed. They will go the way of the dinosaur, and foreigners will completely replace them because 1) Foreigners from third-world countries do not practice birth control.2) Foreigners from third-world countries are prolific breeders having as many as 4 to 6 offspring on average.3) An ever dwindling, aging American population.4) An American population which practices birth control.5) An American population which holds the “nuclear family” to be ideal (Americans have but 1-2 offspring on average)6. An American population that practices abortion. (50 million aborted Americans… and counting.)
Study the natural world folks, the species which breeds more ultimately wins out over a competing species which breeds less. This is an incontrovertible fact of the natural world.
How about a link, FW?
Or do you use the same “quote machine” as MC?
So Fatwrinkles do you have any evidence for the claim that I’m a drug trafficker? That show your credibility out the window. And which articles are plagerized?
The antis are so desperate they’ll just lie and lie and lie. If they’ll lie about me then it’s no surprise they’ll lie about Tiller.
No link unless you have a subscription and are logged in as a subscriber to the AP Underwriters ASSOC.
No link – how convenient.
Fatty has proven himself a liar so he’ll just make excuses.
I got a new take on this to share. YOU know, since each and every one of us who has posted this issue more than a few times is basically retreading old posts?
Let’s imagine. ( I know that’s a stretch for the right but try.)
You have a party. One guest attends. Maybe he made you have the party. Maybe he came into your house and threw the party. Or maybe this was someone you thought you would really love to have a party with. Or maybe it was your first party or your fiftieth and you just love fun.
After whatever version of the above, you discover that there was another guest to the event.Now you don’t know this person. In any case, this person is now in your house eating your food and sleeping with you in your bed. And they will not leave.
You appeal to authorities to intervene. They tell you that you had the party. It’s your problem.
The guest has not only altered your lifestyle. This guest is now altering your body. Aside from this, the “guest” does nothing. It merely consumes whatever resources you have. And it’s demands and effects on you are growing.
Now you know just a little bit about “guests” like this. You’ve been told that they and their demands on you tend to linger for at least many years.
You cannot imagine supporting this guest for such a long time. You have no resources for such a task!
SOME tell you that this guest is a blessing. You should welcome it and all that entails. Hey they will even help you! But from what you’ve heard? Their help tends to fade away right around the time the guest grows most needy. Where will they be when the guest is sick? Will they take care of the guest for you? You’ve heard that they will not. And you’ve lived all your life in a society that brings you to believe that is true. I mean aside from a few charities and the demeaning treatment you get when you ask society for help? Well you and your guest are mostly on your own.
Some tell you that if you only keep the guest until its most needy time? Why SURELY there will be someone willing to take care of it.
But where are those kind and welcoming folks now? Can you count on them?
There are others you have heard of. They will relieve you of the guest. It is perfectly legal and natural for you to do so given your situation. The “kind” folks call such folk evil. But again? You note that the “kind” folks have a pretty poor track record caring for unwanted guests. And if you even THINK of talking or visiting with someone who would help you. Why they turn on you.
What are you gonna do?
Read all that. Think it through.
If you are STILL “pro life”? Can I come stay at your place for the next 18 years or so?
Because unless and until you say I can? You’ve no business telling a desperate young woman in this society how to act.
JR,That last one was truly disgusting. Reducing a child to a parasite is something I thought would be beneath even a dyed in the wool Leftist like yourself. Apparently I was wrong, you really are a cold calculating baby killer after all.
Will, you accuse JR of killing babies. Do you have any evidence for this or is it another lie from the anti-abortion crowd?
By the way JR, think for a second: (I know that’s hard for leftists to do)
PREGNANCY is not a DISEASE.ABORTION is not a CURE.
YOU ARE A MORON.
Thank you and good day.
JR this could all have been avoided if you had locked the front door and not let in the person who brought you this guest. This is the dumbest analogy I have seen lately.
Goodnight
Jeez, JM, Mary, Fat and now Will – the “Baby Killers” are on a roll.
Whoops! Add GRM to the list.
Doug,Anyone who is pro-abortion is a baby killer and is responsible for the deaths of 50 million American babies, not counting the millions of aborted Europeans. I find it utterly ridiculous that it’s the highly industrialized nations who find it socially acceptable for killing babies. Especially since people in these societies think themselves to be more intelligent than people in developing and third-world countries. I stand by my comment.
You sir, are an evil person.
Will I am gonna guess that your problem with abortion is what mine once was.
Other people were getting sex. And I wasn’t. And I wanted those people who were getting it to PAY!
Single 23 year old guy quibbling abortion on a Friday night? Call me a liar.
Of course, I’ve grown up alot since I was young and sex deprived. I’m a single dad now. And I know now that parenthood is not a punishment but an AWESOME responsibiity that this society does not much support.
You might learn from my example?
Well Will, if I’m guilty of killing 50 million people then you should call the police and have me arrested. I don’t know where or when I dragged people in to get an abortion but I’m sure you’ll have something to present to the police. I’ll be at the hockey game tomorrow so they can arrest me there if that’s convenient for you.
You know, Tom Delay supported the businesses in Guam that would force their sweat shop employees to get abortions when pregnant. The bosses figured a pregnancy would hurt productivity so they dragged them out and got them an abortion. So what do the good “pro-life” Christians do? They say how good a Christian Delay is and ol’ Tiahrt preaches about such a good moral Christian he is.
Tom Delay is the only one who stood up and showed he’s pro-abortion yet he gets endorsed by pro-life groups. I’m in favor of universal health care and I’m a mass murderer. Go figure, the antis just lie and deceive about everything.
Other people were getting sex. And I wasn’t. And I wanted those people who were getting it to PAY!
Single 23 year old guy quibbling abortion on a Friday night? Call me a liar.
Ok, so you’re a liar.Feel better now? The sexual act has nothing to do with the abortion debate. Absolutely nothing. I would be just as opposed to an abortion performed on a woman who had in vitro fertilization as any baby conceived by conventional sex.
Women who are pregnant and alone or with an unsure partner can contact:
Care-net
http://www.care-net.org/
Over 1000 agencies nationwide helping women with a variety of services from pregnancy tests, ultrasounds and post-abortion counseling.
And germie weighed in with the usual “personal responsibility” crap.
I think I already addressed that. Let’s do that again.
If a house is on fire? Do you help put out the fire and shelter the victims? Do you do all you can to save everyone?
OR
Do you start and end with. “Hey! I didn’t set the fire! Not MY problem!”?
Abortion is a failure of a society to be TRULY pro life.
Doug,YOU SUPPORT A MEDICAL PROCEDURE WHICH TERMINATES HUMAN LIFE.
Is that at all basic enough for you to understand!? Is there any way I can simplify this concept for you?
Well sure I support doctor assisted suicide. I didn’t think that was the subject. However the assisted suicide is at the request of the patient and it’s not like it’s done to just anybody. If a person goes to a doctor and requests a medical procedure it’s between the patient and his doctor. I don’t see how supporting the rights of the individual makes me a murderer, but then again your are delusional.
Oops, “you’re” not “your”
Studies have shown that pregnant women who see their babies via ultrasound are potentially less likely to have an abortion performed on them. More power to the med-techs.
Doug,Your attempts at side-stepping the fact that abortion terminates human life is telling of your cowardice.
I have yet to see one “pro-life” group speak out against the Bush administrations plans to weaken standards that would allow more mercury and lead emissions which contribute the fetal damage. However I have heard how much of a great Christian and pro-lifer Bush is. Of course they said that when Bush started his crusade that led to the deaths of over 650,000 Iraqis where depleted uranium was used that would increase the number of birth defects.
When antis call themselves pro-life you know they are probably lying.
WHY ARE WE EVEN DISCUSSING KLINE FOR ANY REASON. LIKE THE ICONIC CONNIE MORRIS, KLINE WAS VOTED OUT OF OFFICE BY PEOPLE WHO WERE TIRED OF LISTENING TO A BOZO ATTEMPT TO BRING RELIGION INTO POLITICS. AND LIKE CONNIE MORRIS, HE SHOULD BE RETIRED TO SOME POLITICAL GRAVEYARD WHERE CAST OUT NEO-CONS CAN SIT AROUND TOGETHER AND TELL EACH OTHER HOW RIGHTIOUS THEY ARE. AND AGAIN LIKE CONNIE MORRIS, I FOR ONE AM GETTING TIRED OF SEEING HIS SELF-GRANDIOSE PORTRAIT EVERY TIME I VISIT THE BLOG.
Will, it’s a developing life but a cell does not make a human. Skin cells from my nose can be cloned to make a human but do you shed tears when I blow my nose as it makes me a murderer?
FWIW: A chronology of all the Bill O’Reilly “Shame of America” info is on this page (including videos):
http://www.kansasmeadowlark.com/2006/ShameOfKansas/index.htm
Tee Hee!
jbirdks (AKA JR)Mar 25 2004, 01:45 PMHello. I’m new to this message board. And to be quite honest, I’m new to this …issue as well. A sheltered life in a small town in NW Kansas has kept me from hearing of this … I guess.
What kind of a crook do you have to be to dismiss 30 criminal charges against one of your pals?
Foulston has sold out the law to her own political agenda, and she knew which judge to pick when she went judge shopping.
Neither Foulston nor this judge have any credibility.
Welcome to Wichita, come rape our children.
Indegestion MUST be a blessing?
Because it got me back here at this late hour and let me find FatWrinkles posting….
“Tee Hee!jbirdks (AKA JR)Mar 25 2004, 01:45 PMHello. I’m new to this message board. And to be quite honest, I’m new to this …issue as well. A sheltered life in a small town in NW Kansas has kept me from hearing of this … I guess”
Well “Fat” ? that busts you as a liar.
I do not and have never lived in a NW Kansas town.I did not post to any board in March 2004.I must have stirred your anti choice sentiment up to prompt you to such lies?
Is your emai live? Mine is. Howsabout we take this personal?
You are big on the truly Prolife society.How do you define that JR?Is it the government basically raises our kids?
Wow the religious right nuts are sure out in force tonight. It amazes me that they put so much more emphasis on the life of that ‘parasite’..and it IS Will…look up the definition. Some women THINK of it as an invader to their bodies. Do you not understand that? And if they think of the baby that way, how do you think they’ll care for it? You act like that baby is so important and what is going on with the mothers life is irrelevant. BS! Jesus Christ you people need to live in the real damn world for awhile.
Don’t give me the crap that there are millions waiting to adopt. That’s crap. The only people willing to fork over that kind of money for an adoption nowadays are the ones who will be heading for invitro.
Mary, I know many people who have either been to Tiller or his clinic, and none of the things you are saying are true. He is very compassionate about the women he cares for.
And you were just downright wrong to say that about the guy who took his daughter for an abortion. I loved and trusted my parents, and I didn’t tell them about my sexual abuse at 8 until I was 16 years old. And I wasn’t protecting any family members or anything, the guy never saw me again. I just DIDN”T want to deal with it at all.
Doug, which of these guys do you think is Newman?
From what Meadowlark posted, the term used by law is PARTIAL BIRTH ABORTION. Tiller didn’t do Partial Birth abortions. So I think right there the technicality in the law makes Tiller correct. And the law very clearly says a mental health exception is acceptable.
Nola Foulston thinks she is the greatest attorney ever since she put BTK in prison. Yet Tiller the Baby Killer has murdered thousands of innocent babies and he is allowed to protect child rapists and continue his murdering. It’s abundantly clear Foulston is in bed with Tiller, and I’m sure that her office donated thousands upon thousands to Morri$on so that he can coddle Tiller the Baby Killer.
Tiller the Baby Killer is a sick, sick “human”. This is a man who allows mothers to hold the dead babies they just allowed Tiller the Baby Killer to murder, and baptizes them HIMSELF! This animal is a modern-day Josef Mengle, and his clinic is the modern-day version of the extermination camps. Yet $ebeliu$, Morri$on, and Foul$ton all will go to any length to protect him.
politicalmom is once again spreading her gospel of radical left-wing drivel. What, pulling a baby out of the mother’s vagina legs first and then sucking its brains out is not partial-birth abortion? Next, you’re going to tell me that the wind doesn’t blow that much in Kansas.
And what “mental health” exceptions are Tiller the Baby Killer using? What, if a mother one day is having a bad day and decides she wants to murder her baby, that qualifies, even though she had not been considering abortion up until that one day? Tiller never requires any such “mental health” reason to kill a baby.
I’m guessing politicalmom has pictures of Nancy Pelosi and $ebeliu$ plastered all over her walls, and every day prays to the gods of abortion on demand.
“Reproductive rights” is simply code word for “abortion on demand”. What ever happened to preventing rape and other sexually-based crimes? The feminiazi movement is about one thing and one thing only–abortion on demand. They couldn’t care less if women make less than men for comparable jobs or any other issues that actually make a difference in women’s lives.
politicalmom sounds like she works for Tiller the Baby Killer’s clinic. “Tiller” and “compassionate” belong in the same sentence about as much as “trans fat” and “healthy”.
You are obviously misinformed or just totally full of shit.
I’m guessing the last one.
They don’t hardly do any partial birth abortions anymore. They inject digoxin, a medication directly into the heart, which stops the heart immediately. No scissors to the head. That is not called a partial birth abortion.
We feminists DO address the other issues like rape and domestic violence and pay equity. Perhaps you’ve missed our benefits for these things, our trips to the capital to discuss those things with our representatives. We fought all last year to get the morning after pills passed, to get real sex ed back into the classrooms. Guess who fought that? THE ANTIS, because I guess they want abortions because then what would they bitch about.
But hey, you won’t tell that even if you knew it to be true.
I don’t work for Tiller, I work for women’s rights. Tiller is a part of that.
And you, David, are a whackjob.
DOUG you must email me ASAP! I have some info you might like.
Well “Fat” ? that busts you as a liar.
I do not and have never lived in a NW Kansas town.I did not post to any board in March 2004.I must have stirred your anti choice sentiment up to prompt you to such lies?Is your emai live? Mine is. Howsabout we take this personal?”Posted by: J R | December 23, 2006 at 01:37 AM
TEE HEEsame email address as you is posting about BTK from a small N W Kansas town then.
TEE HEE
Or is it you?
TEE HEE
Phill (the second L is for “liar”) Kline is about as nutso as they come.
The timing of his filing charges against Dr. Tiller was designed to catch the Sedgwick County (Wichita) District Attorney’s office on the day before Christmas break. The AG’s multi-page response (Kline’s fall back position) was released minutes after the judge dismissed charges.
It’s all preposterous political posturing on Kline’s part. And even though the terminology as been marginalized, Kline’s grandstanding seems like the “last throes” of radical evangelical Republicans. Kline’s quick, though thoroughly legalistic response to the judge’s dismissal, indicates they knew it was a fool’s errand.
The right-wing Republican committee-people’s selection of Kline to replace the very District Attorney who unseated Kline as Kansas’ Attorney General are so hell-bent (heaven-bent?) to attack reproductive rights they’ll resort to anything.
Here’s a little guerilla action to deal with Operation Rescue. Call them — at their expensive (to them) toll-free number — and let them know you oppose their tactics.
Wichita Operation RescueToll Free: 800-705-1175
Based upon that finding, at 4:37 yesterday afternoon, the judge issued a summons for Dr. Tiller to appear in the Sedgwick County district court to answer those charges on Wednesday, December 27, at 10:30 a.m.
Prior to filing the charges, I (KLINE)consulted an discussed the case with the Sedgwick County district attorney (FOLSON.) I arranged for a meeting yesterday afternoon. Myself (KLINE,) Mr. Maxwell and Mr. Rucker
… signed into her (FOLSON) office, which will be reflected on her office log at approximately 3:30 in the afternoon.
We met in her (FOLSON)office, her chief deputy in the criminal division was present for part of the conversation. His name is Kevin O’Connor. During that conversation, I informed the district attorney of the charges we were considering filing. I (KLINE) discussed them with her (FOLSON). She (FOLSON) questioned whether I would have jurisdiction as Johnson County district attorney to pursue those charges once I (KLINE) left this office. I (KLINE)told her (FOLSON)I would not. But she (FOLSON) did not question the authority of the office of the Attorney General in filing the charges.
And she (FOLSON) specifically stated in response to my query that she would not object to the filing of those charges.
And she (FOLSON) specifically stated in response to my query that she would not object to the filing of those charges.
And she (FOLSON) specifically stated in response to my query that she would not object to the filing of those charges.
And she (FOLSON) specifically stated in response to my query that she would not object to the filing of those charges.
And she (FOLSON) specifically stated in response to my query that she (FOLSON) would not object to the filing of those charges.
she (FOLSON) would not object to the filing of those charges.
she (FOLSON) would not object to the filing of those charges.
she (FOLSON) would not object to the filing of those charges.
she (FOLSON) would not object to the filing of those charges.
she (FOLSON) would not object to the filing of those charges.
Subsequently, without notice to this office either by the judge who considered the motion, who was not the judge who reviewed the evidence to file the charges, nor notice to this office by the district attorney of Sedgwick County, she (FOLSON) filed a motion for dismissal based on flawed facts and flawed legal reasoning. I (KLINE) was not notified that this was being filed or considered until after an order had already been issued, dismissing the case.
Since the NAZI FW is double posting, I will too.
Well FW, there is that bothersome 1st Amendment again: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. Sorry if Dr. Tiller demonstrates his right to “to petition the Government for a redress of grievances” by contributing to candidates who hold a more moderate view on a woman’s right to privacy.
It must really burn your ass every time you think about the fact that abortion is LEGAL and you really can’t do a damned thing about it except act like a terrorist.
Based upon that finding, at 4:37 yesterday afternoon, the judge issued a summons for Dr. Tiller to appear in the Sedgwick County district court to answer those charges on Wednesday, December 27, at 10:30 a.m.
Prior to filing the charges, I (KLINE)consulted an discussed the case with the Sedgwick County district attorney (FOLSON.) I arranged for a meeting yesterday afternoon. Myself (KLINE,) Mr. Maxwell and Mr. Rucker
… signed into her (FOLSON) office, which will be reflected on her office log at approximately 3:30 in the afternoon.
We met in her (FOLSON)office, her chief deputy in the criminal division was present for part of the conversation. His name is Kevin O’Connor. During that conversation, I informed the district attorney of the charges we were considering filing. I (KLINE) discussed them with her (FOLSON). She (FOLSON) questioned whether I would have jurisdiction as Johnson County district attorney to pursue those charges once I (KLINE) left this office. I (KLINE)told her (FOLSON)I would not. But she (FOLSON) did not question the authority of the office of the Attorney General in filing the charges.
And she (FOLSON) specifically stated in response to my query that she would not object to the filing of those charges.
And she (FOLSON) specifically stated in response to my query that she would not object to the filing of those charges.
And she (FOLSON) specifically stated in response to my query that she would not object to the filing of those charges.
And she (FOLSON) specifically stated in response to my query that she would not object to the filing of those charges.
And she (FOLSON) specifically stated in response to my query that she (FOLSON) would not object to the filing of those charges.
she (FOLSON) would not object to the filing of those charges.
she (FOLSON) would not object to the filing of those charges.
she (FOLSON) would not object to the filing of those charges.
she (FOLSON) would not object to the filing of those charges.
she (FOLSON) would not object to the filing of those charges.
Subsequently, without notice to this office either by the judge who considered the motion, who was not the judge who reviewed the evidence to file the charges, nor notice to this office by the district attorney of Sedgwick County, she (FOLSON) filed a motion for dismissal based on flawed facts and flawed legal reasoning. I (KLINE) was not notified that this was being filed or considered until after an order had already been issued, dismissing the case.
I went to bed early last night WSClark. The quotes I put out were from various articles in the Eagle and on TV interviews I personally witnessed over the last 30 yrs or so. I have no links, just what I remember reading and seeing for myself. I owned the property next door to Tiller in the 80’s and my mom lived across the street from his clinic for over 20 yrs. I had a friend who was a nurse who worked there. I was there the day he got shot and the day his clinic got bombed. My experience with Tiller goes back from observations of him over many years, and knowing many people he’s been involved with, including some those who have recieved his services. He’s not some saint who recues women, he’s a man with no conscience who makes a lot of money killing innocents for a living. You can spin what he does anyway you want, but the bottom line, is he’s a very sick man who enjoys what he does.
Tiller makes Dr. Mengele look good by comparison!
Viva La Revolucion Blanco!!
The bottom line is that abortion isn’t going to go away no matter what Kline or OR tries to do. The only answer is to support prevention of unwanted pregnanies. This something I think we all agree on, it doesn’t matter what any of us think about Tiller, as long as there are unwanted pregnancies, there will always be someone like him to end them.
…and as all you Christians celebate the birth of Christ, be grateful that abortion wasn’t available in those days, Mary was unmarried with an unplanned pregnancy, right?
Well fatwrinkles you are lying again.
I and only I own the account and email address I use. But hey? You kooks will say anything won’t you?
If ever there was a case for abortion it’s you.
By Bob Unruh© 2006 WorldNetDaily.com
Lee Thompson and Dan Monnat, two lawyers representing abortionist George Tiller, as a news conference about criminal counts against Tiller (Operation Rescue photo)
The Kansas attorney general has filed a motion seeking a review of the abrupt dismissal of a case he’s spent several years assembling and that accused late-term abortion specialist George Tiller of 30 criminal violations of the state’s abortion restrictions.
It took the district attorney for Sedgwick County, Nola Foulston, only hours yesterday to move that the case be dismissed because she did not approve of the prosecution, and a judge agreed.
Within nine minutes of being notified of that action, Kline told WND, he was trying to reach the Wichita judge to submit his motion for a reconsideration, but he was told the judge already had left the courthouse for the Christmas holiday.
The motion, then, will be waiting on Tuesday when court reopens, said Kline, who clearly was distressed by the dismissal after he had consulted with the local DA, and had had a local judge review and approve the case before it was filed.
(Story continues below)
“I consulted with her prior (to the filing) and she stated she would not object, and I filed the charges,” Kline said.
Foulston could not be reached for a comment late yesterday.
The case accused Tiller of 30 criminal counts of providing abortions to females ranging from 10-22 years of age, whose unborn babies were ages 25-31 weeks. It is against Kansas law to do an abortion on a baby older than 22 weeks unless special medical conditions exist, and the charges explained that those conditions weren’t there.
Two lawyers representing Tiller, Lee Thompson and Dan Monnat, held a news conference to confirm the charges, describing them as “technical” violations of Kansas reporting laws. Thompson would not confirm the number of counts, answering only that the case involved a “number of misdemeanors involving a number of patients.”
The lawyers also said a summons had been issued to Tiller by a copy being placed in Tiller’s door overnight. They said there was no evidence of crimes and promised to hold Kline “personally responsible” for the prosecution.
A short time later, what Kline’s office would only describe as a “threat” reached Kline, and, “what we can say is that security has been heightened,” a spokesman in his office said.
Kline told WND he consulted with Foulston before the filing, but afterwards, this is what she submitted to the court.
“This District Attorney has not invited or requested, consented or acquiesced, or failed to object to the filing of the Complaint. The District Attorney does in fact object to any such filing by the Attorney General as he lacks the legal authority to file such complaint in this jurisdiction,” Foulston wrote.
Kline said he even has an e-mail from Foulston acknowledging their discussion about the case.”
Kline also had had a judge in Wichita review the case, as required, before it was filed. But Foulston’s motion went to a different judge, Paul Clark, and he, without any review that Kline knew of, decided to dismiss it, Kline said.
He also debunked Foulston’s claim that the attorney general can only file cases at the direction of the Legislature, governor or after permission from a local district attorney.
Kansas state law allows that, “If the testimony at an inquisition discloses probable cause to believe a crime has been committed, the attorney general may file such testimony together with his complaint against the person or persons alleged to have committed the crime,” he said.
The counts cite a number of abortions, such as the July 22, 2003, abortion on a 14-year-old child, patient “072203LM,” where Tiller “wrongfully relied on a diagnosis of Anxiety Disorder … or Adjustment Disorder with mixed anxiety and depressed mood to determine that a continuation of the pregnancy will cause a substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function of the pregnant woman when such diagnoses do not establish that a continuation of the pregnancy will cause a substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function of the pregnant woman, in violation of [Kansas law.]” the complaint said.
Before the dismissal was announced, Tiller had been scheduled to appear in Sedgwick County District Court Wednesday.
Officials with Operation Rescue were horrified to see the developments:
“Foulston has come under criticism by pro-life supporters for refusing to prosecute accusations against Tiller because of her personal friendship with him. It is alleged that she adopted her only son through Tiller, who has stated publicly that he has arranged adoptions in return for political favors,” a statement on the Operation Rescue website said.
“This is a classic example of why justice cannot be done in this state because so many officials have ties to George Tiller,” said OR President Troy Newman. “Money buys a lot of favors here. This miscarriage of justice must not be allowed to stand. ”
The case was dismissed “without prejudice,” which means that until the statute of limitations expires on the allegations, the counts, which cost more than two years of investigative work for Kline and his office, could be refiled.
Newman said pro-life groups had been working to see the counts filed for years. “We have repeatedly reported on our website and through press releases that we believed that Tiller was breaking the law, injuring women and killing innocent late-term babies that should have had the protection of the law.”
He also called on the state Board of Healing Arts “to suspend Tiller’s license and close his abortion clinic to insure that further crimes are not committed. We won’t rest until Tiller is convicted and behind bars and his abortion mill is permanently closed.”
Phil Kline
Kline said the females involved are not under investigation, will not be charged and, in fact, haven’t even been identified.
“The complaint speaks for itself, the identity of the patients will not be sought or revealed by my office. These are accusations and Mr. Tiller is presumed innocent unless proven guilty in a court of law. The investigation is ongoing,” Kline said in a prepared statement.
The Kline summary of the case, however, noted the law restricts post viability abortion “unless two doctors find either: a) the mother’s life is in jeopardy if the abortion is not performed; or b) ‘a continuation of the pregnancy will cause a substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function of the pregnant woman…’”
Those are the requirements that were not met, the complaint alleged.
“Violating any of the provisions of this act is a Class A misdemeanor, punishable by up to one year in jail, a $2,500 fine or both,” the summary said.
“Although the late-term abortion statute states that ‘upon a second or subsequent offense’ for violation of this statute that the person ‘is guilty of a severity level 10, non-person felony,’ Kansas Supreme Court case law has interpreted such provisions to require a previous conviction before (someone) can be charged with a felony,” the summary said.
Kline’s summary said in nine of the cases, the pregnant “woman or child” was diagnosed as having “Major Depressive Disorder, Single Episode,” and in four more cases the “pregnant woman or child” was diagnosed with “Acute Stress Disorder.”
“In three cases, it is alleged that the clinic reported to KDHE that the fetus was not viable when the defendant’s medical records indicate that the fetus was viable,” the summary continued.
There might have been other charges, too, but the statute of limitations had expired on some of the case being reviewed, Kline’s summary said.
The subpoenas for the records were issued in September 2004, but the documents were provided to Kline’s investigators only on Oct. 24, 2006, more than two years later.
“By the time the investigators for the Attorney General’s office obtained the files …. 28 of the files subpoenaed by the Court in September 2004 relating to this defendant had expired…,” the summary said.
Kline has been investigating whether Tiller and other abortionists were violating the state’s abortion laws nearly since he took office. But he will be replaced in three weeks by Democrat Paul Morrison, who during the November election campaign cited no need for investigating the abortionists.
Operation Rescue officials said Kline’s investigation of abortion clinics for “the concealment of child rape and illegal late-term abortions” was the key to Kline’s election defeat in a state with a governor and industry strongly supportive of abortion.
“Kansas has opted to continue the practice of looking the other way when innocent young girls are taken to abortion clinics by their rapists, who are looking to destroy the evidence of their crimes,” said Newman after the election. “It has also voted to ignore violations of Kansas law that bans post viability abortions.”
Kline also had raised the issue of state statistics from 2003, when there were 78 abortions on girls under the age of 15. In a state where the legal age of consent is 16, how could 78 girls become pregnant and obtain abortions without a single report of sexual assault, or rape, on a child, he wondered.
Kline earlier had confirmed, in an interview with Fox News’ Bill O’Reilly, that the medical records indicate late-term abortions that were done for reasons that Kansas law doesn’t allow.
But Morrison said during his campaign he would start a domestic violence unit, without any additional expense to the state. “Some of the money that’s been used on misplaced priorities could easily fund” the plans, he had told the Lawrence Journal-World.
He cited Kline’s investigation of the abortion businesses run by Tiller in Wichita and Planned Parenthood as an example of those “misplaced priorities.”
Morrison also got a huge boost in his campaign when a non-profit organization that the newspaper linked to Tiller mailed hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of mailings critical of Kline.
The mailings called Kline “Snoop Dog” and were mailed by Kansans for Consumer Privacy Protection, said the newspaper, which noted that group had the same office address as ProKanDo, a political action committee Tiller started and is funding to elect pro-abortion candidates.
A district court judge who ordered the records given to Kline had noted he couldn’t realistically be expected to investigate allegations of crime without access to the records that could prove it.
I don’t know a whole lot of the attacks that have happened to Dr. Tiller (shooting, bombing) but they are inexcusable.Also not knowing much about him I do think that the attacks on him are out of bounds.Obviously he is a believer with the left on abortion, otherwise he wouldn’t perform them.But I can’t imagine he enjoys this either. You’d really have to be subhuman which I doubt he could have become a Doctor if he was personally that screwed up.He’s a MD performing a service or procedure. In his mind he doesn’t consider it a moral issue so to him it’s like doing a nose job or something.The personal attacks on Tiller aren’t going to change anyone’s hearts or feelings towards the issue.
Dear Editors,
I’m requesting that any post reposted by someone more than once should be removed.
I smell fear! And I THINK just a hit of desperation.
Fundie phil got his butt spanked in the election. His time and power run out. His faith based end runs are thwarted.
And ALL the kooks come out of the woodwork.
It’s OVER kooks!
A woman is going to continue to have control over her body.
People are going to continue to have sex that is not available to you or that you do not approve of.
Happy new year!
You kooks will say anything won’t you?Posted by: J R | December 23, 2006 at 09:27 AM
People are going to continue to have sex that is not available to you or that you do not approve of.Posted by: J R | December 23, 2006 at 09:55 AM
Enough said.
Good point, KIA. What people don’t seem to understand is that if they stop Tiller and others who do perform this service UNDER THE LAW, women will still have abortions. If abortion is once again determined illegal, we’ll go back to women bleeding to death in back alleys and their own homes…and worse.
There always has been and always will be abortion. It’s a fact. Live with it and, please, please, turn your hard work to finding a way to stop the need for them.
If you’re against abortion, DON’T HAVE ONE, and don’t allow any member of your family to, either. Don’t use these ridiculous, untrue scare tactics to do it. Unconditional love and truthful education will go a long way.
As for those of you who are men, please stay out of the argument. You will never become pregnant, carry a being who lives off your body, or give birth. You don’t know what you’re talking about and never will. Personally, I’m grateful for that, considering the number of deadbeat dads who don’t give a *^$%$ about something they helped create.
I am not pro-abortion. I am pro-choice. And the law supports me.
“Kline also had raised the issue of state statistics from 2003, when there were 78 abortions on girls under the age of 15. In a state where the legal age of consent is 16, how could 78 girls become pregnant and obtain abortions without a single report of sexual assault, or rape, on a child, he wondered.”Posted by: Ted | December 23, 2006 at 09:40 AM
The terrorists of the left are blinded to this and post more of their terroristic blitherings!
TEE HEE
Boy. I haven’t been this creeped out since I found myself in a Starbucks sitting across from Cheryl Suellenger and Mark Gietzen. The ick factor on this thead is through the roof.
When Phillllll is safely esconced in Johnson County, I hope all of the pro-birth jihadists posting here today crawl back under their respective rocks.
fatwrinkles = JM
The must be making cockroach costumes using on assembly lines lately.
If you all weren’t so sad, you’d be comical. Quotes by Kline and Newman are useless to support your case.
Mary
you claim to know so much…go back and read about my experience at Tillers clinic.
you are DEAD WRONG and love to lie
you know NOTHING>>>>you are just a product of Rush oxy Limbaugh and Fox news. Do not know the truth so you just make it up
you people make me sick
that woman got paid LOTS OF MONEY to lie on Faux news Bill oreily
don’t believe her
when there were 78 abortions on girls under the age of 15. In a state where the legal age of consent is 16, how could 78 girls become pregnant and obtain abortions without a single report of sexual assault, or rape, on a child, he wondered.”Posted by: Ted | December 23, 2006 at 09:40 AM
you are all worried about underage girls becoming pregnant.
hows about you men keep your pants zipped up!!
I tell you what.. If someone messed with my little girl, I would cut their male memember off and they would NEVER have to worry about that again.
How about we propose all unmarried men get castrated….then there will be no unwanted pregnancies and no abortions.
The charges Kline filed yesterday against Tiller was obviously a poltiical stunt. Kline obviously knew that he did not follow the proper legal procedure to file these charges – thus he KNEW that the charges would be dropped.
I think Kline is naive but I do not count him as stupid. He knows how to get his name in front of millions of social conservatives – remember his appearance on Bill O’Reilly’s show?
I suspect this whole circus is to build his base of social conservatives into a more solid group so that he can venture into a broader political range. I think we will see Phill Kline looking to run for Senator perhaps, if Brownback really does retire.
of course he knew. That is why he had a response ready within minutes after the charges were dropped.
Kline as a senator…blahhhhhhhhh
Leave,
Common sense is all that’s needed to know the O’Reilly interview was a fake.
If O’Lielly has anything let him hire a lawyer and file legal action against Tiller in civil court.
Mary,”If your daughter was raped, Jed, then why did she become pregnant? Wouldn’t you have helped her with preventaive measures?”What preventative measures would you have suggested? It happened over 20yrs ago, and the “morning after” pill, if it existed then, hadn’t made it to Wichita. She wasn’t on the pill at the time because she was in no serious relationship, and had no intention of being in one in the near future, and stories about the pill and breast cancer were surfacing then.As far as communcating, she didn’t need to communicate much. Her busted up face, broken ribs and her being dumped out in the country stark naked in February spoke volumes!After she learned she was pregnant by her rapists, we talked about it considerably. Her final statement was “I am not, under any circumstances, bringing another one of them into this world!”I respected her decision, and helped her implement it.And just so you know, we also talked about her decision occasionally over the following years, and she had no regrets whatsoever about it.
Really, can we stop copying and pasting HUGE sections from websites into the blog? Pasting a link is easy to do if you need to make a reference point. It also allows those that want to read the info to determine if the source is credible.
Without source information, the paste is pretty much useless.
Give us a break.
“that woman got paid LOTS OF MONEY to lie on Faux news Bill oreily
don’t believe her “Posted by: Leave | December 23, 2006 at 11:15 AM
PROVE IT!
WHERE’S THE BEEF!
YOUR LIFE IS A LIE!!!
TEE HEE
Steinle, got a question for you.
Do you believe in mental health exceptions for women seeking abortions? Don’t you think that being pregnant may hurt an already unstable woman?
Do you think women who have been raped deserve an abortion? How do you feel about women in general? Women who have been abused by their lovers?
Where would they go if Tiller wasn’t in operation?
TEE HEE – and you prove her allegations. And you prove that Foulston said what you claim she said.
PROVE IT!
WHERE’S THE BEEF!
YOUR LIFE IS A LIE!!!
TEE HEE
http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/16302068.htm
ur newspaper! its says thier story!
then newspaper lie!
No FATSO, the paper simply printed Klines statement. The newspaper did not state that his words were true. There is a difference. It is not “their story”; it is Kline’s story. And we have no way of knowing whether it is true or not.
“Kline’s statementThis is what Kansas Attorney General Phill Kline said at his Friday afternoon news conference in Topeka:”
Burden of proof is now upon Kline.
Phil Kline and Sam Brownback will never be President of the United States and, hopefully, not embarass Kansas much longer either.”Ask Not What Kansas Can Do For You. Ask What You Can Do For Kansas”
“No FATSO, the paper simply printed Klines statement. The newspaper did not state that his words were true.” Posted by: Slim | December 23, 2006 at 04:11 PM
newspaper did not say the word was false!
burden of proof is on u and Folston!
the truth terrorist wreeks ur havoc!!!
I never said it was false either. I simply stated quite correctly that it has not been proen true. Right now it is only hearsay and therefore inadmissable in Court. If you or Mr. Kline have any evidence to support your allegations then present that evidence. Simply quoting yourself and noting that the eagle has reported that statement doesn’t mean anything.
it’s not true and not false!
not proven!
slim whitman yodeled his way out of existence!
slim whitman wont believe the court case because he wont be there!
all is lost!
we can not believe anything!
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
The TRUTH:
“The District Attorney has not invited or requested, consented or acquiesced, or failed to object to the filing of the Complaint. The District Attorney does in fact object to any such filing by the Attorney General as he lacks the legal authority to file such complaint in this jurisdiction.”
http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/local/16301033.htm
Proves your statement false fatso. Foulston never said what you and Kline claim she did. Directly from the same newspaper.
Lord Gawd! And you thought Vern Miller was an embarassment!
Summary of 30 Chargest against Tiller fromhttp://www.kansas.com/multimedia/kansas/pdfs/122206tillercharges.pdf
Count, Date, Woman[yrs], Fetus[wks], Charge: Reason1, 7/22/2003, 14, 26, Unlawful Late Term Abortion: Anxiety Disorder with mixed anxiety and depressed mood2, 7/22/2003, ?, 29, Failure to report justifications for Late Term Abortion3, 7/8/2003, 10, 28, Unlawful: Major Depressive Disorder, Single Episode4, 7/8/2003, ?, 28, Failure to report5, 7/15/2003, 15, 28, Unlawful: Major Depressive Disorder, Single Episode6, 7/15/2003, ?, 28, Failure to report7, 11/18/2003, 16, 29, Unlawful: Major Depressive Disorder, Single Episode8, 11/18/2003, ?, 29, Failure to report9, 7/30/2003, 19, 27, Unlawful: Major Depressive Disorder, Single Episode10, 7/30/2003, ?, 27, Failure to report11, 8/19/2003, 22, 31, Unlawful: Major Depressive Disorder, Single Episode12, 8/19/2003, ?, 31, Failure to report13, 8/5/2003, 15, 26, Unlawful: Major Depressive Disorder, Single Episode14, 8/5/2003, ?, 26, Failure to report15, 8/5/2003, 15, 28, Unlawful: Acute Stress Disorder16, 8/5/2003, ?, 28, Failure to report17, 8/12/2003, 15, 25, Unlawful: Major Depressive Disorder, Single Episode18, 8/12/2003, ?, 25, Failure to Report19, 8/19/2003, 15, 26, Unlawful: Acute Stress Disorder20, 8/19/2003, ?, 26, Failure to Report21, 11/4/2003, 15, 25, Unlawful: Major Depressive Disorder, Single Episode22, 11/4/2003, ?, 25, Failure to Report23, 8/26/2003, 14, 25, Unlawful: Acute Stress Disorder24, 8/26/2003, ?, 25, Failure to Report25, 9/9/2003, 15, 25, Unlawful: Major Depressive Disorder, Single Episode26, 9/9/2003, ?, 25, Failure to Report27, 11/4/2003, 18, 25, Unlawful: Acute Stress Disorder28, 11/4/2003, ?, 25, Failure to Report29, 11/4/2003, 13, 25, Unlawful: no established diagnosis30, 11/4/23003, ?, 25, Failure to Report
Two 31-week old unborn children. One 10 year old girl. All very tragic.
Pro-life folks may be considered “radical” but what about standards in “liberal” Europe?
The Red-State Freak ShowBy EU standards, Kansas is a hotbed of liberal extremismhttp://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NWNlZmVkOTBmMGY3Zjg4ZGRkYjY5OTQwMDM0NDBiMjA=
“But if Kansas were in Europe, it would be a rogue state, isolated from others by the weirdness of its social policies.”
Dear Leave my body alone,I do understand what a difficult decision you had to make and if you have read any of my posts I have no problems talking about my abortion either. I think a lot of folks want us to feel bad about what we did but I know no one else can ever know how bad it feels to be 16, pregnant, and have no body as I was. Except I had one friend and she helped me. I wish I could have had a father like Jed who stood by his daughter. My hat is off to you.
Everyone on both sides of this issue is so polarized that I know that will never be resolution. I keep wondering why so many of you ignore what Mary said. The only way to stop abortion is through education, prevention, not of sex but of conception, making children a priority. Doesn’t anyone want to discuss this?
Brenda – well said. And sadly, all too true.
I believe that if we attacked the root causes we would accomplish so much more. Contribute to Gerard House, Anthony Family shelter, Harbor House. I sunbit that would do more to reduce abortion that the terrorist who bombed Tiller’s clinic or the other terrorist who shot him have done.
Good God, Meadowlark, the National Review is so far right-wing as to be completely lacking in credibility.
Democratic Underground is more mainstream than that stuff. Dang, MoveOn.org is closer to the center than the National Review.
Why not just tell us what Rush Limbaugh thinks?
Ben,I too support Gerard House and have since my early days working at St Francis Hospital. I believe they are one of the best resources for pregnant teens and wish there were more places like it.
St. Francis – remember when they were in that little house just a couple blocks north of the hospital? They have a very nice place now – and you are right, we need more.
Something I would like to see is a better place for a girl to get her pregnancy test in the first place. Perhaps if she were in a warm accepting environment she could be ’steered’ toward better choices.
I don’t know what the answers are to this but I don’t think they will be found on the streets.
Without question Ben & Brenda.
Those who would take a shot at Tiller or bomb a clinic (such as Eric Rudolph) are no different than the Jihadists we are currently fighting in the middle east.But it’s important to note there are these lunatic fringe in all segments and sub-cultures of society – not just religious. (certain animal rights groups or supporters also an example).
I heard where Gerard House was closing their doors? Is this true?
Why Kansas? Why do we in Kansas, a conservative “red” state, have laws that allow a man like George Tiller to perform the very worst procedures on late term babies in our state?
Why does he draw people from all over the country seeking late term abortions? Are we so proud of our so-called “tolerance” that we have elected governors who will veto any bill that might change this embarrasing horror?
And when we in Kansas elect an AG who actually doesn’t turn a blind eye to the horror, we think he is the bad guy?
Well, the weirdly myopic media in Kansas, led by the Wichita Eagle and the Kansas City Star certainly influence a lot of people with the lies and distortions.
I think that we need to reexamine our values and see if the abortion on demand is consistent with them. If it is not, then lets do what needs to be done to change the law and quit buying into the the false arguments you read in this paper and others.
Outlander, the people voted and made it very clear in the last election that the values most of us support are not your own.
Kline lost by a landslide. And we all know why.
I know you think it sucks that women are able to make their own decisions about their bodies, but that’s the way it should be.
Leave, I have never listened to Rush or any of those other assholes. I can’t stomach their hatred or in tolerance.There is truth on both sides and there is a lot of spin and propaganda on both sides.What I said about Tiller is true, because I witnessed it myself, otherwise I would have taken it with a grain of salt like I do when I hear the all stories from BOTH sides.Jed, In all the discussions we have had about the abortion issue, this is the first time you brought up you daughter’s experience of being violently raped by several attackers.Your wife almost dies giving birth, and she would have been a candidate for a partial birth abortion. You have told many horrible tales about the activity of the prolifers around Tiller’s clinic, including sexually abusing children. I spent a lot of time in that neighborhood and never saw any of the activities that you describe.You volunteer at Tiller’s clinic as an escort, which tells me you must be a pretty big advocate of Tiller.It’s amusing that many on this blog will believe everything you say, because you’re prochoice, but I’m called insensitive and a liar, because I’m pro life and I think you tell a lot of tall tales.
I guess people only hear what they want to hear.
Even though we see abortion from a different perspective, PM. I agree with you. If abortion is outlawed, women will die terminating their pregnancies. I would never condone someone terminating their pregnancy, I have worked for years to help women find alternatives, but abortion should stay legal and people shouldn’t be forced to become parents when they don’t want to be.I just hope and pray that someday the procedure will be rare because we’ve managed to solve the problem of unwanted pregnancies.
Outie?
“I think that we need to reexamine our values and see if the abortion on demand is consistent with them. If it is not, then lets do what needs to be done to change the law….”
Oh ok.
And how does that work exactly? If we DID change the law as YOU would like? What is the means of enforcement? Is it societal obligation for moral and financial support for unplanned pregnancy?
Or do you just strap the woman in a gurney and force her to gestate, hand her the baby when it is born, and shoo her out the door?
That I can totally agree with you on Mary. But I have to fight to keep them legal, or we will see women dying.
I want it to stop feeling like a life sentence of poverty to have a baby. Remember when women could do on the job training to become nurses? That was well before my time, but I’d like to see something like that again. Considering the nursing shortage, I think it’d be a good fit. Paid training while you work for an employer.
And I do know many people who work closely with Tiller, and I have heard nothing credible that says he treats people with anything but respect.
Mary,I’m 62yrs old, and my life has not always been a safe suburban middle-class existence. I’m also in a profession that requires me to keep my eyes open. I’ve seen and experienced quite a bit, much of it up-close and very personal!Yes, my wife’s ex-father-in-law was a chiropractor who performed numerous illegal abortions.Yes, my wife came very close to death when my youngest son was born.Yes, my daughter was brutally raped, became pregnant as a result and had an abortion, and I have brought that up on this blog several times in the past, though maybe not with so much detail.Yes, my wife had a massive cerebral hemmorhage and lived for six years with severe brain damage.Yes, after her death, I spent 7 yrs taking care of a friend with chronic-progressive multiple sclerosis until her death.Yes, I escorted women into two clinics, past the howling mob of anti’s over a five-year span. I didn’t witness the sexual abuse of a child by one of the anti’s, but I did hear the child’s mother, also an anti, make that accusation. I did watch as they sent groups of children into the street to stop cars so they could shove tracts in the windows.I have actually met and talked with Dr. Tiller, which is more than you have done, and trusted him with my daughter, but my particular cause is not Tiller personally, but to make sure we don’t regress to the time of back-alley abortions again. I saw too much of those days!I still haven’t figured out where you are coming from. You claim to support keeping abortion legal, yet you lend aid and comfort to the anti’s, including some who have bombed clinics and killed people. You are either highly conflicted on the issue of abortion, or you are scamming us. Which is it?
You know what I’d really like to hear…I’d like to hear a story from one of the girls who have been helped by one of these anti-abortion organizations. How come I never ever have heard a story about how after the baby was born, and they needed milk, or something, or a place for their baby to go while they worked..how come I have never heard of a story like that?
PM,When I escorted, next door to the clinics were anti organization “clinics.” We watched as mothers with two or three youngsters went into these places, and after quite a long time, came out carrying no more than three cans of formula and a half-package of disposable diapers. Seems much of the promised aid came in the form of sermons, which are considerably cheaper than formula.
Gee imagine how much they could help those women if they didn’t spend so much money on commercials and sonogram equipment.
What I think we need more than anything else in this country is to return to a society that has the family intact. I am middle-aged and I remember my childhood. Everyone in my class had a stable family life. Most were married couples, some widowed but never single parents. We also had extended famkily around us.
Perhaps there would be less pregnancies if we got back to encouraging strong families – and not just for heterosexual couples. I mean families of all kinds. Our politicians need to have their feet kept to the fire to provide policies that will help citizens to become responsible and accountable for their actions.
We need to return to being able to work for a living wage, have affordable health care coverage, and not have to worry about the safety of our kids. When I was young, the thought of child molestation was never even in our minds. In today’s world there are way too many child rapists and child molesters. But little we did realize, child molesters were around in my childhood years but I never dreamt it was happening in the Catholic Church with the church leaders knowing about it and covering it up.
So lets go after the real causes of unwanted pregnancies and maybe we can reduce the number of abortions to the very minimal.
Jed, one of my friends had her kid after she was promised by the antis that they would help her financially. Of course none of that financial help ever arrived. As you know, and probably the antis know, they only want women to give birth. After that it doesn’t matter. Having women tied down to raising kids keeps them in their place so they won’t get all uppity demanding equal rights.
Suza,I agree with much of what you say, that strong families are a very needed thing, but to assume that they were the norm at some time in the past is a mistake.I grew up in the late ’40’s and ’50’s, and whle there are certainly differences today, the nuclear family of that era was often an illusion. Divorce was more difficult, and sometimes scandalous, but many of those seemingly Norman Rockwell families were rife with abuse, affairs, unwanted pregnancies and illegal abortions that nobody talked about.In middle and upper class cases, they were usually quietly taken care of by the family doctor doing a D&C to “regulate her feminine cycle.”Here in Wichita, there were four chiropractors whose practices consisted almost entirely of pre-Roe v. Wade abortions. My wife’s ex-father-in-law was one. In talking with him, I found he had been doing well over 1,500 abortions a year from 1949 to 1973, at between $10 and $25 apiece. The other three were presumably doing about the same. There were also a handful of nurses, and a couple outright butchers doing them part-time. Realize of course, that most of these were done before the pill became widely available.The real problems occurred when things went wrong. A woman would have her uterus perforated, start to bleed uncontrollably, and refuse to get help for fear of arrest. Many bled to death. Of course the cause of her death was often covered up out of shame, so there is no real way to know how many women died from botched abortions.Now, at least, it is usually performed by licensed physicians and regulated as any other medical procedure is, and when things do go wrong, which is much less often now, the ER is available.Abortion has been around for quite a long time. A clinic was recently excavated from Roman times in Caesaria, near Jerusalem. In fact, it was perfectly legal in this country during the first trimester until the Comstock Law of 1869. The 104 years it was illegal were an unmitigated disaster for women. If we return to that era, we simply return to disaster.
Doug,”Jed, one of my friends had her kid after she was promised by the antis that they would help her financially.”How did you let that happen? Friends don’t let friends get duped like that!
Well said, Jed, and I agree that all families were not ideal in the 50’s either. I was just commenting that we have somehow lost that family connection that was more prevalent 50 years ago than today.
And you are right, there were doctors that performed abortions back then, the only thing was it was on the hush-hush and they simply called it something else.
So do we really think people in today’s society are going to act any more responsible or accoutable than 50 years ago.
I still believe that abortion is wrong but that is my personal decision to make. I wouldn’t want some protester at Tiller’s clinic to presume that they know me or my situation to make that moral judgment.
As for Phill Kline, he has made this whole abortion debate about the ‘good Christians’ versus the ‘bad liberals’. It is not that black and white. Life is messy and there are alot of gray areas. Nobody knows another person’s trials and tribulations unless they have walked in that persons’s shoes.
This abortion debate will never resolved if we keep dividing into two camps with neither group willing to even discuss things without name calling and downright ugliness.
Sorry Jed, it all happened before I knew her.
I think that most people agree that abortion is not a good thing. I think people on both sides are conflicted about it. I cannot see any way to find a middle ground. I realize that if you believe as some people here do that it is murder there is no middle ground from that position. The only way to stop abotion is to tackle the underlying reasons it exists. Abortions legal of not will never stop. So even if you think it is murder you must get involved in these other areas.However no matter what any of you say I will never regret what I chose to do. I will never allow any one to make me feel evil. I think it is really easy to pontificate about this issue but come live in my world and you might feel differently. Experience is the best teacher.
Brenda,You are right, of course. Since the anti-abortion forces have made this a moral issue, no compromise is possible for them. Knowing that, choice leaders couldn’t accept a concession that has to be made in bad faith. It’s a mess!I suppose it all boils down to whether you trust a woman to make her own decisions or not. I do, so I see no reason for legal limitations; if you don’t, it’s up to the moralists to make it for them.
But the problem with the moralists is that they see every issue as black and white. They do not believe in the middle ground. Heck, Bill O’Reilly even wrote his last book on the premise there is no middle ground and there is no such thing as a moderate.
I disagree with the O’Reilly and the rest of the moralists. To govern, one has to be able to compromise. And I believe reduced number of abortions performed is at least a good start in resolving this issue.
You’re dead on Jed. It is about a woman’s decision for her life and her body over everything else.
And it’s not that we haven’t tried to make concessions on the issue, but when we have it’s been used to hurt us in the long run. Just like with fetal personhood laws that allow for the punishment of two murders in pregnant women. They sound really good at face value, till you dig deeper into why they’re being pushed the way that they are. When recommended doubling the sentences on all pregnant women, they’re usually shot down, which would include things like domestic abuse and such where the crime is not murder. But that’s not what the religious right’s agenda is, so they fight against that language for those bills.
PM,You are quite right about the fetal personhood laws.The fanatics only want one thing, to stop all abortions for any reason. I’ve heard some state that abortion to save the life of the mother is a fraud, since any real mother would gladly die for her child. Others have called for shooting clients of clinics, since shooting Doctors has proved ineffective.Is it any surprise that they would promote lies to further their cause?
Judge Clark is a gentleman and a fine judge. But he is assigned to civil and has been for several months. I know nothing about the substance or validity of the now dismissed charges, so what I say is not intended to suggest otherwise. But as an observer of the court system I would be very interested in knowing how Nola’s Motion to Dismiss was heard by Judge Clark. While there would be no way to prove it, I would hazard to guess Judge Clark is one of the very few judges in Sedgwick County who would have dismissed the charges based on what amounts to a jurisdictional pissing match between the DA and the outgoing AG.
Or, SP, he was one of the few judges in the Courthouse on the Friday before Christmas.
This whole debate is polarized. The point is, it is NOT our place to stand in judgement of someone, as so many of you are doing. No, I have not had an abortion. I am however, a single mother who had to make that decision two years ago. I may not agree with the concept of abortion, but neither do i think it is my place to say whether it is the right choice for someone else or not – and honestly, you DON’T think that a 10 year old having a child isn’t going to cause lasting mental damages? In an instance like that, I can see how an abortion would be the better choice for her… Seriously people, we polarize the issue so much, when the fact of the matter is that this is so much grandstanding on the part of Phill Kline… The fact that he was able to respond withing 15 MINUTES of Nola Foulston’s filing and the subsequent dismissal of his charges shows that he KNEW that this would happen and was therefore waiting for it. And further, the quotes that have been so “gracefully” (read: sarcasm) provided to us (three times) state that Kline met with Foulston AFTER the charges were dismissed at which point she said she would not contest them NOT before as so many of you are trying to claim – please at least check out the information before you try to snowball all of us – and Mary, I have seen those protests outside of Tiller’s clinic and I think they are just as abusive as Tiller’s actions – I for one would NEVER allow my young child (who should be in SCHOOL by the way) to carry around those posters that these people allow their children to carry – we claim that video games and songs and movies make our children violent, but what about the carnage we expose them to in the name of “good”???? The fact is that Kline did not initially pursue legal avenues to file the charges, and a judge ruled that so. We don’t get to decide whether or not he did that, a JUDGE does and a judge DID. Those are the facts that you need to be aware of. Now, the judge did rule in such a way that if Kline were to follow the PROPER avenues he could refile the charges, which it appears he did, however, whether or not these charges will stand up in court shall remain to be seen – but to say that Major Depressive Disorder is not grounds for mental hardship is ridiculous – as someone who has been treated for depression which was a result of my pregnancy and my son’s father’s disappearance, i can tell you that it very much has lasting repercussions…
Wendy, very thoughtful post. I don’t think anyone is claiming Major Depressive Disorder is never a basis for the exception to the ban on late term abortions. The question is whether there is evidence in Dr. Tiller’s file to justify the diagnosis, and I suppose also whether Dr. Tiller, a family practice physician, is qualified to make such a diagnosis.While it may seem common sense to say a 10 year old would suffer medical consequences from delivering a baby, I’m relatively certain the Supreme Court intended a slightly more concrete diagnosis when they created the exception to the ban of late term abortions.
^ Concrete diagnosis meaning one supported by the facts in the patient’s medical record and made by a provider with appropriate training to make the diagnosis.
John,Concrete diagnoses are hard enough to come by in any medical discipline, let alone psychiatry, as you might see in any court proceeding where mental heath is an issue. Sometimes, you just have to go with what you got!
I would think anyone who was considering abortion would be a good candidate for major depressive disorder in the first place, and considering that most would have already aborted by that time had they just not wanted the baby at all, the MAJOR was probably a correct diagnosis.
You guys have really no idea how depressing and traumatic pregnancy can be for some of us.
So are they going to call every one of those women into the court to testify as to HOW depressed they were? That’s just wrong. It’s wrong wrong wrong.
Jed, I’m not sure what you’re trying to get at with your post. Yes concrete diagnosis are difficult, but the standard is not “you have to go with what you’ve got” as you suggest. There are always standards to be applied, and upheld, with any rule be it legislative or court made law. Whether there is adequate evidence in the records to support the diagnosis and whether the provider making the diagnosis is qualified to do so are relevant questions to be asked either by law enforcement or the licensing agency. I don’t pretend to know the answer to either of those questions in Dr. Tiller’s case. But throwing my hands up and saying, well he’s a doctor he must know, is not the standard to be applied.
John,
My depression was diagnosed and treated by my family care physician – in fact, many counselors cannot even prescribe treatment for depression because they are not licensed doctors… Dr. Tiller is fully capable of diagnosing such a situation based on his medical license – under medical laws, it is within his realm to diagnose such things… I think what is at greater issue is whether or not an independent third party concurred with said diagnosis before the abortion was performed, as is required by state law – however, from reading Phill Kline’s charges filed against Tiller, that is not what it says is his basis – but rather calls in to question the diagnosis’ themselves, not who made them, and I believe according to the article, all but three (is that correct?) cases had concrete secondary supporting diagnosis – and the three that did not were cases where the survival of the fetus was in question – as any parent would know, anything can go unexpectedly wrong at any time with a pregnancy, even if there were no previous warning signs – my son was delivered 4 weeks early because in less than a week my blood pressure went from completely normal to off the charts – it was so high they wouldn’t even tell me what it was for fear of upsetting me further – and case in point all the stillbirths of infants who were perfectly healthy and alive up until the point that it was discovered that they no longer had a heartbeat or they were delivered and were no longer alive – such a situation is extremely difficult to determine even with medical records. It still simply reeks to me of a witchhunt on the part of Mr. Kline.
You know maybe this will be a good thing afterall. Maybe we do need to get these women up there to testify, to show these nuts that there is a legitimate reason for abortion, and show that Dr Tiller is doing a good job. Of course, that won’t be good enough for some, but at least for the majority, people will likely lay off on the issue and show how far the antis will go to try to hurt people.
P’s me off though, Kline said this would not be an investigation of the women, but it is. It’s an investigation on whether or not they needed this abortion. And it’ll involve their full medical records, and it’ll involve their sexual histories. Just like Kline planned all along. Because for Tiller to defend himself, those things are going to have to be brought up.
So much for Kline and his f’n medical privacy. This is what Tiller fought against all along with the medical records.
Wendy, being able to prescribe prescription and being qualified to diagnose any disease in the eyes of a court are not the same thing. Think of whether a cardiologist is qualified to diagnose pancreatic cancer or whether a oncologist is qualified to diagnose cardiovascular disease. Sure they are doctors and can write the prescription for the meds, but whether a court would “honor” their diagnosis is a different question. To suggest Dr. Tiller’s, or any other doctor’s, dianosis is above judicial review is dangerous and counterproductive. (Whether it is appropriate in the 11th hour of Kline’s term as AG is very fair and legitimate question however.)
Political Mom. None of the patients will be forced to come to Court to testify against their will. It is essentially a question of whether the records support the diagnosis. Of course, if they choose to appear voluntarily and testify that is an entirely different matter.
John,
If you read my whole post you would see that I stated that my FAMILY PRACTICE PHYSICIAN DIAGNOSED my depression – even a counselor recommends that you first speak with your family practice physician to determine if there may be depression severe enough to require medication, because it is either a psychiatrist or a physician that diagnosis’ the depression – I am not referring to anything other than that in regards to Tiller’s ability or suitability to diagnose things – but think about your cancer statement as well – oftentimes cancer is found by a family practicioner when you go in because you have, for example, a cough you can’t get rid of, or you are inexplicably tired all the time – they then REFER you to an oncologist for a second opinion and a back-up of their diagnosis – but they are the ones who initially diagnosed the cancer… apples to oranges in any case – the only relevant question here is whether or not Tiller is certified to diagnose depression, and as a family practice physician, yes he is.
and yeah, if a cardiologist opens you up, and sees cancer from the pancreas, they’re probably going to say it’s most likely pancreatic cancer, but that can’t be certain till they run the biopsies. In which case they will refer you to an oncologist like Wendy said. Yes, family practice physicians are well within their scope of practice to diagnose depression. They do it all the time. They may or may not refer you on to a specialist.
Wendy, your understanding of both medicine and law is very flawed. Your anecdotal evidence of your own treatment aside. In the eyes of the law merely having a medical degree and a board certification does not “certify” a doctor to diagnosis any disease ipsa dixit. The court (or jury) will look at the individual doctor’s education, training and experience, the medical record on which the diagnosis is made, and hear competing testimony from other expert witnesses to determine whether a doctor is qualified to make a diagnosis and whether the diagnosis was reasonable.If the Court were to simply say, as you suggest, Dr. Tiller is a family practice doctor therefore he is certified to diagnose all diseases and his diagnosis is above judicial review, the supreme court case establishing the exception would be illusory.
I am not saying that he can diagnose any disease – I am saying that as a Family Practice Physician, Dr. Tiller is within his scope to diagnose depression – now, whether or not he has the corraborating diagnosis from another doctor that is required under the law I do not know – but I do know that any family practice physician will tell you that they are able to diagnose depression, and that their diagnosis of depression will hold up over a counselor’s diagnosis because of their medical education and licensing, which differs greatly from that of a counselor… That is the point that I am trying to make… I never said he could diagnose ANYTHING, simply that he can diagnose depression, and in probably 8/10 cases, depression was diagnosed by a patients Family Practice Physician, and NOT a Psychiatrist – other mental defects of course would require a Psychiatric diagnosis, but since Depression is not considered solely a psychiatric disease, but rather a physical one (the failure of the brain to produce the proper amount of seratonin) then a physician can, and often times DOES, diagnose depression…
Wendy do you have a link for your claim that 80% of depression is diagnosed by fp’s. I would be interested in seeing that. I am certain many fp’s would prescribe anti-depressants as most are safe meds with few serious side effects. I suppose the relevant questions are: 1) whether most fp’s are comfortable enough making the diagnosis of Major Depressive Disorder to sign off on an otherwise illegal late term abortion; and 2) whether the court or jury in a criminal trial would find Dr. Tiller (who did not complete a family practice residency and whose only formal medical training after his 1 year internship was 1 year of flight surgeon training in the military) qualified to make the diagnosis based on the records before them.I would guess the answer to my question number 1 would be not many and I wouldn’t be able to guess an answer to number 2.
When are the journalists and the editors at the Eagle going to figure out that Dan Monit is an advocate for his client and is going to put the best possible spin on the case for his client. I’m sure the guy is a decent lawyer, but the Eagle treats his sound bites like some kind of inspired words of Lady Justice.
Ron Sylvester= blithering fool.
If he writes it assume it was hand feed to him by an attorney and he didn’t fact check it. The guy is either incredibly lazy or dense, either way he is an embarassment to an otherwise good newspaper. He is the only journalist who routinely presents as fact allegations of fact made in court pleadings. Maybe Ron should look up the word allegation sometime.
John,I don’t know about you, but I would much rather have my medical diagnoses made by a physician than a court. Considering that the law is generally 50 years or so behind scientific state of the art, especially where mental illness is concerned, and given the length of time a court proceeding takes, most women seeking a late term abortion would be up a creek. Of course, that’s where the anti-abortion people want them! Some women are going to die waiting for a court to make up it’s mind. That OK with you?Makes me think of the old Soviet Union, where abortions were perfectly legal, but there was an 11-month waiting list to get one.
Where do people get these ideas. The Courts are fifty years behind the state of art??? Are you serious. Courts and juries rely on the testimony of expert witnesses who in some circumstances define the state of the art. I understand you are advocating a position but the hyperbole is as transparent and flimsy as a roll of Saran wrap. Nevertheless, it isn’t even relevant, the question is not whether a woman has to seek Court approval to get a late term abortion. The question is whether the health care provider authorized by the state to make determinations about the medical necessity of the procedure exercised the authority in a responsible manner. If Dr. Tiller exercised his authority in a responsible manner then he should be exonerated. If on the other hand he arbitrarily and without sufficient basis diagnosed women as having a life threatening condition(or whatever the actual standard is)as pretext to qualify for an exception to have an otherwise illegal late term abortion, (and not coincidentally to collect his sizeable fee!!!) he should be held accountable to the state which granted him the authority.
Neither Dr. Tiller or Mr. Kline are above reproach.
Most of us, I assume, have no idea what it is like to experience an unwanted, unplanned, defective, life-threatening pregnancy.
You’d rather dismiss the real issues of reproductive rights to what can only be theoretical issues to you personally.
Perhaps you believe, as a matter of faith, that human life begins at the moment of conception. And that the two human lives (the one you claim to exist at the moment of fertilization and the woman in which it happens) at that moment have equal rights. In which case, an ectopic pregnancy, sure to kill both the fetus and the host is no grounds for terminating a pregnancy.
Perhaps you believe a pregnancy resulting from rape or incest is somehow “God’s will” and it’s the rape- or incest-victim’s own fault that she didn’t superglue her knees together.
Or that an anencephalic pregnancy (often not discovered until the 3rd trimester) in which there is not enough brain to sustain live birth, but can result in non-stop agony of the newborn (for its only brain function is pain) until its inevitable death hours or days or up to a week after birth… is preferable to a late-term abortion in lieu of human suffering.
Maybe a woman is a slut and sleeps with anyone with a penis and gets knocked up only beacuse she doesn’t give a damn about it. You seem to be one who thinks she might “learn her lesson” if she’s forced into motherhood and compelled to carry the pregnancy to full term.
“Don’t to the crime if you can’t do the time.” Is that it?
Here’s a clue, for all of you who can’t seem to be able to afford to buy one:
There are issues, medical and psychological issues, personal traumae, nuances, moral questions, theological theories, gender-specific considerations, a zillion permutations of “what if?” or “if only?” that enter into the abortion issue.
Do you really (be honest with us now) feel qualified to pass judgement on every woman who faces any and every question that might come up with regard to reproductive rights?
One of the basics of being an American is the belief that the individual has rights.
Pregnant women, regardless of the circumstance under which they became pregnant, have rights.
Every other element of law in the United States of America (albeit, perhaps, arbitrarily) measures rights from the time of birth. We don’t dish out drivers’ licenses 16 years after conception; even if the 16-year-old was born a premie. A “viable” pregnancy is measured in weeks instead of an analysis of a fetus’ actual chances of living outside the womb.
It’s all arbitrary. Just as arbitrary as the assumption that “life” begins at the moment of conception, or that “life” begins when a zygote implants into a uterus, or that “life” begins at birth, or that (as spelled out in many life insurance family policies) an *insured* life begins two weeks after birth.
If you’re against abortion, don’t have one.
If you’re *really, really* against abortion, persuade women to not have one. And provide them with alternatives that might dissuade them. Don’t simply advocate the alternatives; *provide* them.
I suspect I might have a personal opinion on this issue if only I were capable of experiencing pregnancy. Just like I might have a lot to contribute to bluebirds’ way of life if I could just fly.
But until I can flap my arms and flutter away, I tend to let bluebirds handle the whole problem of flying.
And unless I find myself pregnant, I think it’s the wise action to give women the right to choose.
John as someone who worked in the medical field for MANY years, I can say unequivocally that many many many depressive disorders are diagnosed by regular ole MD’s and DO’s. What are your credentials to say doctors don’t have that authority? Are you a medical lawyer? Or just someone who hopes Tiller gets convicted?
John,”Where do people get these ideas. The Courts are fifty years behind the state of art???”
Well, it seems the legal definition of mental illness hasn’t changed in well over half a century in this state, and many others. Are you assuming our understanding of it hasn’t changed either?Our prison system is chock full of mentally ill people who could be treated, and be productive citizens at considerably less cost than incarceration, but no, we still have to extract that pound of flesh!The court’s judgement on the mentally ill today depends more on whether the prosecution or the defense has the sexiest psychiatrist than the actual science.
PM: I am a “medical lawyer”. The question I raised is a very specific one: (which by the way I raised in the context of “I suppose”) whether the Court would consider Dr. Tiller qualified to make the diagnosis he included on his medical chrart as the justification for the late term abortion. That is a much different question than whether some other MD or DO with other education, training, and experience is qualified to diagnose some other patient in some other circumstance. The law does not judge in broad brush assumptions, rather it looks at the facts of each case uniquely.
Jed: I’m sorry you have such a bad veiw of our courts. I think you would find most lawyers, judges, and juries do try very hard to listen to the evidence and apply the law fairly. It may not have always been the case, but I honestly believe it is true today. There are times when cases becomes a battle of experts,but I’m not sure what you mean when you say “sexiest” expert. If you mean the expert with the best credentials, or most credible testimony you’re right. But do you have a suggestion for a better system.
The abortion issue in Roe V Wade doesn’t say that there is a right to abortion per say. It is the right to privacy. If you’ve had an abortion, for whatever reason, is that for someone else to be looking at? Who gets to look at medical records? Should we just make medical records into public record? Did you get the clap in college? Want your current wife to be able to look that up? Ever had counseling for depression? Want your employer using that against you if you ever step on thier toes? Have a history of cancer in your family? Want your insurance provider or mortgage handler to use it as a reason to deny you? Get chronic vaginal yeast infections? Hey! Won’t they get a laugh about that in the break room? Got a kid on zoloft? Does your neighbor have the right to know? I want my privacy. I’m sure Phill Kline does too. I’m sure Rush Limbaugh was glad that the ACLU defended him when prosecutors wanted his medical records just to find out if he was taking some pills. Privacy is a right that I’m sure you don’t want to give up. Is it worth giving Kline the glory he is so thirsty for to open up all of our records for scrutiny? Or maybe you want your new girlfriend to know about those nasty warts you had in high school?
John,I understand that as a lawyer, you have a great regard for Law. But as someone who has watched the legal system work for quite a number of years, I feel that while our system is as good as it gets, there are some areas in which it doesn’t do justice. Some cases are simply too technically complex and delicate to be trusted to the blunt ax of the law, for example the diagnosis of mental illness.Most people have a tough time understanding what a mentally ill person is going through. Several people on this blog have treated major depression as something a person can just snap out of, if she has enough will power, or a moral issue that she can overcome if she just finds Christ in her heart. Such a view is unrealistic to say the least, yet these same people may end up on a jury dealing with that issue. Schizophrenics are exponentially more difficult to comprehend, yet juries are asked to decide their diagnoses. They’ll believe the expert that tells them what they want to hear, and a prosecutor who wants to improve his conviction rate will encourage them to do just that! As a result, the law’s treatment of the mentally ill has been abysmal.In your practice, you must know a few good psychiatrists; ask them what they think about it!
Everyone’s Right’s Protected: You make valid points regarding privacy, but there has to be a balance between privacy and the rule of law. The Supreme Court made abortion legal under the penumbra of the right to privacy in the Constitution. Over time the SOCTUS crafted some specific limitations on the right to an abortion. One of those limitations is a ban on late term abortions except in certain circumstances involving the health of the mother or fetus. In creating this exception it granted the provider the right to make that determination without involvement of the court system in advance of the woman undergoing the procedure. As pointed out above, sometimes the nature of the danger is such that any delay in obtaining court approval could be determinital. But with the authority granted to the provider to make the determination comes responsibility. Responsibility not to make the determination arbitrarily or without sufficient basis. Essentially, the obligation to exercise their medical judgment in a reasonable manner. The Court’s have to have the right to from time to time review a particular provider’s records to see if they are meeting their end of the bargain, i.e. exercising their medical judgment in a reasonable manner. If the provider is then fine. If not, then the provider should be punished. Abortion providers are not above the law.It is unfortunate that Kline apparently chose to release certain records to O’Reilly. In doing so he betrayed the public’s trust in the AG’s office, and can be seen on this blog, in the court system as a whole. If it is substantiated that he authorized or failed to intervene to prevent the release of the records, as a lawyer I hope he is disbarred. But, that doesn’t alter the fact that there needs to be a balancing of interests that sometimes allows for the records to be obtained and reviewed with certain identifying information redacted.As for the rest of your rant about any other type of medical record I fail to see how it is relevant. Your records are protected by state and federal law, but there are exceptions which include when they are subpoenaed pursuant to law.
Whoa Jed, since when have I been supportive of someone who would bomb a clinic? I really resent the insinuation. I don’t feel conflicted about the abortion issue at all. Life isn’t black and white, but I think many of you see this issue that way.I have supported women who have unplanned and unwanted pregnacies by supporting alternatives to abortion. Yes, I’m prolife. That’s where my efforts go, but I don’t agree with those who would harass a woman or a clinic, it’s hurtful, counterproductive, and only drives people to the “other side”.But I believe that one person shouldn’t deny another person of their life, it’s that simple.It’s sad that so many of you refuse to see the other side of abortion, which is the fact that someone is denied their time on earth as a result of another’s “right to choose”.I just can’t get past that, and I will never condone or support a child being aborted.
I too understand that life is not black and white but many shades of gray. I have on several occasions talked women out of an abortion by showing them there are other alternatives and resources. I remember being appalled that one woman was forcing her daughter to have an abortion only because the father was black. I tried to help them see again that there were other alternatives.However, having experienced what it was like to be on the other side of the issue, I can never accept not having the choice and I would never claim that the fetus is not a living being. But as I’ve said before there are worse things than death and I am really afraid that my child had it been born would have suffered horribly and at the end of the day I don’t know that I could have lived with that. It is an extremely personal and emotionally charged issue for me. I will do everything in my power to preserve the right to make my own choice because I lived through not having that choice.
Mary,You might need to take a long look at some of the people you’ve chosen to ally yourself with.OK, you’re pro-life. I’ll accept that; it’s your choice to make. As long as you don’t demand that everyone else make your choice.
Jed, I really wish there was a way to take the emotion out of this issue so that we all could sit down and come to a compromise. I truly don’t know how but surely we could do that. I want abortion to remain legal with some restrictions that make sense. This whole issue prevents stem cell research as well as so many other things. What do you think?Is there anybody out there on the other side that would be willing to do such a thing?
Brenda,All I can say is that when Roe v. Wade came down, I was so happy that it put the back-alley abortionists out of business in the only way possible. I really don’t want to see their return.As far as compromise, the anti-abortion forces have already stated that there is no possible room for compromise, and that no abortion for any reason can be agreed to.My solution to the problem is to eliminate as much as possible the economic and social pressures that force women to make that decision. The anti’s, and conservatives in general have found that unacceptable.I too would love to put this issue behind us and get on with all the other problems that plague us, but not at the expense of returning to an era that cost so many women their lives.
People I’ve allied myself with, Jed? I’m not allied with any group or organization. I can think for myself. How would I force my choice on others? Abortion has been legal for a long time. All I can do is support alternatives. If you are so pro-choice, then why do you only promote abortion? I get the impression that many in your camp are honestly disappointed when a women chooses NOT to have an abortion. Are you one of those who cheers and claps when a woman pulls into Tillers parking lot? Or are you the one who peed on a nun who was kneeling by the clinic, quietly praying?Maybe you need to look at who you’ve aligned yourself with.
Mary
You too might benefit from a bit more scrutiny at who you have aligned yourself with.
Now I know that you are truly pro life. But if you are honest? You will admit that many, perhaps most “pro life” folk are attempting to use a baby as a punishment for a perceived moral lapse. Their concern for life ends when the baby takes its first breath. These folk are not to be found advocating for food, shelter, medical care or anyhing else for that new life and mother.
You might to call them on that.
J R,I know Mary does not need me to talk for her but if you knew her as I do you’d know that she has always been there to help others. She would do anything to help someone in need no matter what the issue is. She is also vey pragmatic. Although she and I don’t always agree we both know that this is probably a useless debate and I just wish we as a society would work at changing the underlying causes. That however would mean that we would have to value the people such as nurses, social workers, teachers, ect. who impact the lives of children and women in difficult circumstances. I have to say though that I am very pessimistic that I will ever see this happen in my lifetime. Making money is our God and if your profession doesn’t generate revenue you are not valuable.
Brenda,
I call Mary the only truly pro life poster we have. I am well aware of her commitment and efforts. I was only trying to remind her that there are ugly folks to be found on both sides of this unfortunate debate. I chastised her in no way other than to advise her to get more folks on her side of the issue to assume a more truly pro life stance.Im sorry if I was not clear. I am basically in complete agreement with you.
JR, as a matter of fact, I know many, many people who are prolife, who also care deeply about the needs of children and have dedicated their lives to work with those in need and support efforts to better people’s lives. In fact, I’d say that they outnumber those who think because they are “prochoice” they have no responsibility to provide for the needs of children, because they believe they should never have been born in the first place.I know people who work in the shelters, at the food banks, in free clinics that assist the poor, in treatment centers, and many charitable organizations like the Lord’s Diner, Dear Neighbor Ministries, and St Anthony’s Shelter who are prolife. I believe I’ve aligned myself with some pretty remarkable and giving people who aren’t afraid to put their money, their effort, and their time where their mouth is.This arguement you like to make that prolifers want people punished for having sex is ridiculous, obviously you don’t know a lot of prolife people. Most of us just believe that abortion is the denial of someone’s life, and that life should be considered sacred. It’s that simple.I’m not conflicted about it, I live in the real world. Outlawing abortion won’t stop it, and women will die if it becomes illegal(which it won’t be).I’ve said this before, I look at abortion the same way I look at war or capital punishment, sometimes it’s neccesary, but the loss of life is always tragic. It’s nothing to celebrate or feel good about.I will always support alternatives to abortion, that’s where my money and efforts lie.
I agree with Brenda, we need to put more effort into the underlying issues to our societal problems. Unwanted pregnancies, homelessness, drug and alcohol abuse, domestic violence, child abuse, etc. are all just symptoms of the deep dysfunction in our society. We need to focus on the causes, that’s the only way to reduce the symptoms. Bandaids to stop the bleeding does nothing to address the reasons why we’re bleeding in the first place.
Mary I tried to go to one of those Catholic places to help people, and I was turned down because I wasn’t a Christian…and he flat out told me so. I said I was willing to look past the religion thing in order to help, and he couldn’t.
And I’m not about to give my money to an organization that I know is purposefully deceiving women and using them. many of those places are NOT helpful. I know of one woman who used to be pro-life to the point of starting her own CHAPTER. She said the had something that happened that made her pro-choice, but also was just disgusted by these places who claimed to be ‘helping women’ when that is not what they did at all.
I will give to the Salvation Army, because I’ve actually seen them in action helping- and they are a Christian Organization. Until I see it, they don’t get my money.
i’ve heard plenty of so called prolifers say that they should have to accept the punishment for having sex. You can’t deny it because some have said it on here Mary. I don’t think you feel that way.
Mary
I have not been associated with the “pro life” movement for more than 15 years, so my take on its membership is not from personal experience.
Rather it is from posters here. Almost all posters here who cry pro life! are the same folks who bitch and complain about public assistance of any kind.
They may not like it. But the fact is that Hillary Clinton was correct. If we truly wish to be a pro life society we must embrace the concept that “it takes a village”.
Mary,I have never, and would never council a woman to have an abortion. That decision is hers and hers alone. She is the one who has to live with it. I trust her to make it, and I will do whatever I can to support her with whichever decision she makes.I believe in a person having access to as many choices as possible, and those choices available equally to all people.If I come across as pro-abortion, it’s because so many of you are doing everything you can to take that particular choice away from women. And your reasons are strictly religious and/or ideological; they take no account whatsoever of a woman’s particular situation.Your fellow anti’s don’t give a damn about what happens to the woman or her child once it’s born. Some have actually stated just that! Others pretend to while the woman is pregnant, only to drop her like a rock the minute she delivers. None offer any meaningful long-term aid.Set up an adequate system to care for mothers and children for as long as it takes, drop your opposition to abortion on medical grounds, and I will believe that you’re really pro-life. Until then, count on my opposition.
I once went with ProKanDo to lobby for a bill that would require coverage of contraception for women in all state insurance plans. What amounted to a dollar a day was pennies compared to what the insurance companies would have to pay to cover the cost of an abortion. It would have reduced the number of abortions performed in the state.
However the bill was stopped dead by a rabid “pro-lifer” because she was opposed to contraception despite the fact it would have led to less abortions. This woman is Susan Wagle and was endorsed by all “pro-life” groups.
That’s why pro-choicers are really pro-choice while the anti-abortionists are merely anti-choice. If there’s any means for a woman to control her reproductive choices it will be opposed by the antis.
Mary,PS. I haven’t clapped or cheered when patients arrived- I’ve had to be too busy keeping howling anti’s from crawling all over them. I’ve never seen any escort clap or cheer, except when some anti made a complete ass of himself, which happened with some frequency. And I haven’t peed on any nuns lately either. That sounds like the usual propaganda anti’s spread. I’ve certainly never heard of that from any credible source. Actually, the catholic protesters behaved pretty much unobjectionably- it was the fundies that were obnoxious and threatening, and who we kept our eyes on, although I don’t recollect anyone peeing on them either.
It was in the news, Jed, and it was reported in the Eagle. I was there for the summer of mercy, the prochoice folks are just as obnoxious as the prolifers, even more so.I don’t like either extreme, most of us are somewhere in the middle. It’s not black and white, and no one all right or all wrong.There is help available for women, and many people who are prolife give willingly of their time and resources. I know too many of them to say most people who are prolife don’t care about a baby after it’s born. That’s a mean, unfair, and untrue generalization. I’m sick of those who truly believe abortion is wrong being demonized by those who think the ideal solution for an unplanned pregnancy is to kill the baby.
woah woah wait a second, nobody said it was IDEAL to go have an abortion. Not a single one of us would encourage a woman to have an abortion. We fight for choice and to stop the neonazi types because we know the need for some women is there and that it is vital.
Sorry, I’ve heard otherwise. When my daughter got pregnant in college, she made the choice to give birth. They had a “grandma” shower for me, one of my friends who is VERY pro choice said to me, “You know, she can still have an abortion”. My daughter was 6 months pregnant! I really think she was disappointed that my daughter choose to have her baby.Another big pro choice friend told me that she thought abortion “was wonderful” because that way “there are no unwanted babies”. To me, that’s sick. If someone is unwanted or inconvenient, you just kill them? Isn’t that what Hitler did?
I have been in the pro-choice movement for a LONG time now and I have NEVER EVER had any of the women I have been in contact with who said they would recommend an abortion to anyone at all, for any reason. It is about CHOICE. Even our boss has said that she doesn’t feel she could ever make the choice for herself to have an abortion. I have said I’d never WANT to feel I had to make that decision. That’s why I’m fixed, because if I were ever to get pregnant again I feel it would truly be my only option.
No, there is no good outcome, but abortion is necessary to save the lives of women, even those who just are desperate not to be pregnant. We support the choice of women to decide what is best for them.
And I support the alternatives. I don’t want to see abortion outlawed, but I would like to see it more restricted. I hate abortion, but I don’t want to see women die because they’re desperate.
Well Mary,The more restrictions you impose, the more women will die.As far as the statements you say were made by pro-choice people, I’ve been active in the movement for 7 years and have never once heard anyone say such things. If I had, rest assured they would have been corrected, and none too gently. I don’t put up with crap from anyone, as some of you have already noticed!As far as someone peeing on a nun, I find that just a bit ludicrous; I certainly wouldn’t whip mine out that close to a nun. I’d just as soon keep it, thank you!That said, I wasn’t around for your so-called summer of mercy. I was busy taking care of a friend with M.S. at the time. Yes, I understand tempers ran high on both sides, but at least half of the reports I heard stunk of propaganda. I don’t abide that either!
Sorry Mary, Hitler was a Catholic who outlawed abortion. The Fatherland had to produce more children to be used as cannon fodder.
So, do you care to actually present these news stories where I and Jed were out there clapping and cheering every abortion? No, I didn’t think so. I do recall your friends shooting Dr. Tiller and blowing up his clinic. Somehow any violence you imagine happened is nothing compared to what you “pro-lifers” have committed.
I think what bothers me most is the rabid people on both side. It is when pro-choice people portray those on the other side as being stupid and objecting to contraception that we lose. It’s sad that some on both sides do things that impede reasonable decisions from being made. On the other hand to compare prochoice people to Hitler is not helpful either. It is those on the extreme edges that prevent reasonable decisions and restrictions to be set on the use of abortion.Mary, I think your daughter did what was right for her and on top of that she had you there to support her. Many women don’t have that. What would you have done if she had chosen to have an abortion? I actually think you would have told her how you felt about it but you would have been there for her because that’s just who you are.It still really is about choice.
All good sounding arguments about women’s choice. And valid.
But what is missing, and purposely ignored in the pro-choice equation, is the largest portion of the price of the woman’s choice… The violent death of a human being.
Out,As I said upthread, When you’ve provided an adequate system for taking care of women and children for as long as necessary, and drop your opposition to abortion on medical grounds, Oh, and drop all opposition to contraception, then I’ll believe that you really are pro-life. Until then, you’re just another bunch of religious fanatics trying to impose your views by any means at your disposal on the majority of people who simply do not agree with you!
Jed, so the solution to unwanted children is to kill them? It’s better to die than to live a life that’s not comfortable and easy? Are you glad to be alive? You’ve had a lot of heartache and hard times in your life, right? So would you rather your mother aborted you?
Doug, I never said that you and Jed were the ones clapping at the clinic that day, it was reported in the Eagle. Look it up, it should be in the Eagle archives.BTW, I think you’re a moron.
Jed, this isn’t a relgious issue for me, it’s a human rights issue. I’m not a Christian, not do I believe in an afterlife. This is it, I wouldn’t want ANYONE taking my only chance to exist away from me. How about you?
Gotta second that Out.
Jed’s sentiment I mean. Not yours.
The words we are dancing around here are “It takes a village.”
‘cuse the spelling errors, I’m tired.
I’m part of the village, JR. How ’bout you?
I keep saying this but it’s true. Until we as a society put our money where our mouth is and fund the programs that make a difference in the lives of women and children and pay the people who run these programs a living wage, we will never stop abortion or abuse. Poverty is the biigest contributor to these problems and it’s mostly women and children who live below the poverty level.
Brenda – you speak truth. And, I think that of persons of good will on both sides were to gettogether we just might be able to find a way to decrease the demand for abortion.
I’m part of the village too Mary.
Deal is? A LOT of “pro life” people don’t wanna be part of a village.
I’ll tell ya true. Looking around at where this society is going? There’s times I wonder if I should have brought my son into the world. I see little future for him and for most Americans; even most human beings. Not a pleasant future anyway.
Oh for God’s sake JR, lighten up!Your son will be just fine and you need to seriously quit being such a damned pessimist! This is all the life we will have, our chance to exist in time, it’s goes to quickly, ENJOY IT!!!!!
BTW, I know more pro life people in the village than those who think that the answer to unwanted children is to abort them before they are born.
Yeah lets all just gather round the fire and sing kumbaya.
I wanna live in Mary’s world.
Come on PM, it’s really nice here! But don’t hate me just because I enjoy life and think it’s worthwhile.
Wow, what a flood of pessimism about the future. Well I disagree! I think the future is going to be great. I want to see my kid grow up, be successful, and have an attitude of service to people. And I want to be there to teach him about God, to fill his brain with positive messages and a can-do attitude that will enable him to excel when everyone else just gives up.
So if you want to have a pity party, go ahead. Just don’t include me or mine.
Amen!!
I’m with you political mom.
I’ve seen Mary’s world. She aint hurting. From his posts my guess is outie is pretty comfortable too.
It’s quite a bit different in the real world.
Well moron Mary, you said pro-choicers were clapping and cheering. I’m pro-choice, I was at the event, therefore perhaps you are either piss poor in logic or can’t properly use the English language as intended. Just because you do something stupid doesn’t mean other people are moronic because of your actions.
JR: This is what I teach my son.
A person lives in the world they create. Your circumstance is a direct result of your thoughts. Positive begets positive and vice versa. You are in control. Change your thoughts and your attitudes and your world will change.
That statement is as true as anything I know. Don’t believe it? Then I challenge you to an experiment. Lose the cynical, negative attitude for one month and replace it with positive thoughts of hope and expectation. See what it does in your life.
I used to have a positive attitude. I remember those days.
Unfortunately after being smacked down time and time again, it’s just harder and harder to get back up again.
Some myths about life:
Love is all you need.
God never gives you more than you can bear.
Those who work hard will prosper.
I used to believe all three.
The thing about America is we will always be made up of a number of different ‘villages’ or sub-cultures. Otherwise it is socialism.My village happens to be made up of my church family. A handful of couples in the same stage of life, small children, mid-career, struggling with everyday things such as finances, health, just as anyone else does. Couples move, new one’s come, etc.
Try and take this village away from me in favor of some kind of Government mandated one with Government mandated speech, beliefs and can and can’t do’s and that is when you really will have a fight on your hands.
pmom..
you left something out…
God never gives you more than you can bear….. if you seek and trust Him in all things.
otherwise, you are on your own.
KIA,Are the current handful of couples in your particular village actively helping one another and anyone who passes through your village? Is your circle designed to include as many as possible, or to keep out the “undesirables,” be they people of differing race, economic status or belief?Before we revert to tribalism, we need to ask those questions, with the full realization that one function of tribes is to go to war with their neighbors. Do we really want that?
Sam,Try going to a cemetary some time, and realizing that under each of those cold stones is someone who got handed more than he could bear at least once!
Mary,”This is it, I wouldn’t want ANYONE taking my only chance to exist away from me. How about you?”While I am happy to be here, I also realize that there were billions of years before I was born when I didn’t exist. I don’t recall minding it all that much.
Jed..
That is part of the curse.. after the fall, God promised that we would ALL die once… it is our choice if we are to die twice.
That is one atatistic that is consistent isn’t it.. one out of every one person will die!
Sam,Yes, that is part of the Judaeo/Christian mythos, but it doesn’t affect the mechanism, that death is caused by being handed more than you can bear.