“Current U.S. policy is not working,” the Iraq Study Group declared today. It’s key recommendations include direct talks with Iran and Syria; withdrawing nearly all combat units from Iraq by early 2008; and threatening to reduce economic and military support for Iraq’s government if it fails to meet specific benchmarks, the Washington Post reported.
Study group co-chairman James Baker said that Iraqis “have been liberated from the nightmare of a tyrannical order only to face the nightmare of brutal violence. . . . It is time to find a new way forward.”
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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107 Comments
I have just finished a quick “first read” of the report; makes many recommendations which (facially) seem to be reasonable to me, for the most part. The 2008 withdrawal of troops is, unlike set out above, conditioned on actual security conditions at the time.
Report points out what I consider an evident fact; there must be a resolution of the Arab-Israeli matter as a part of the overall “solution”.
Who would have guessed? The Baker-Hamilton Commission has “discovered” that the Bush War on Iraq has been a disaster. What a surprise.
Those of us on the left have said from the beginning that this war of choice would end up badly and it has, without question.
This is not a matter of will or opposition on the homefront. This is simply a matter of an incompetent president listening to advisors that only told him what he wanted to hear.
Now all of us are going to pay for it.
George Walker Bush – the Worst President Ever.
Until there is a Military/Police structure establised that thinks and operates at a National level rather than the clan/sect/tribe/ level, this place will never change.There doesn’t appear to be much hope in this regard, and I think it’s doomed.The hate dividend will affect all there.
I think we should follow the recommendations. We surely can’t make it much worse.
The Commission Report also states that the Bush War on Iraq will have a final price tag of at least one trillion dollars.
That would be, one trillion dollars borrowed from the Chinese.
This is madness; almost beyond comprehension. What could we have done with a trillion dollars at home to fight terrorism?
That money could have been spent to secure borders, provide for inspections of incoming cargo, hiring more Arabic speaking FBI and CIA agents, developing better and more capable human intelligence on the ground, etc, etc, etc and so on….
I hope that George is proud of himself – he has mortgaged our future for absolutely no gain and killed 3,000 of ours and 600,000 Iraqis in the process.
Is there any question now that GWB is the Worst President Ever?
MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!
If GW Bush was even interested in foreign policy and had the intelligence and skills required to implement this report’s recommendations, this would be a hopeful effort. He is not and does not.
The Iraq study group reasonably asserts that diplomacy is an important ingredient in our foreign policy efforts. But as Armitage once said the Bush administration’s idea of diplomacy is saying “Look fuckers, do it our way.” The Bush clown posse have no interest or ability to implement these recommendations.
Therefore, this was pretty much a wasted effort by Poppy’s friends.
Not necessarily Steven. The report from daddy’s friends might give Congressional Republicans cover to act against the cokehead-in-chief.
PMom: No shit, darlin’! What have wegot to lose ?
Maybe hmmmm…
I am listening to NPR’s coverage of the report and one critic says that the Baker-Hamilton report would have possible to implement last year. Things on the ground have progressed too far toward chaos to make these recommendations possible.
If he is right, that is pretty depressing. And you know, it is not like the report proposes anything “magical” — just your basic foreign policy 101. Something way over GW’s head. This report is the final repudiation of neocon foreign policy. We need the neocons out in order to have a chance in Iraq and we cannot wait two years for that to happen. IMHO only.
So how will George W. treat this report any different than he did the 9/11 commission report? He has already stated many times that he will not withdraw troops from Iraq until it is stabilized, as long as he is president.
We’ve got 2 more years to go with this guy. GWB has already proven that he is not about to admit he did anything wrong.
Pride goeth before the fall?
Richard Nixon defied members of his own party when they told him to come clean about Watergate. The result was that they turned against him and he knew that he would not only be impeached, he would be convicted. The movement was bipartisan. I suspect that if Bush stonewalls now he will face the same thing.
Who knows, maybe Bush will be the first prasident to be impeached AND convicted.
Haven’t seen much from the BushBots yet … Rush late getting his talking points out?
it was all about black gold (oil) and we all know that… he found 1001 reasons to invade IRAQ and they were all reasonable as could be with ALL countries in the world, but the driving force for invasion was oil in Iraq, so greediness of corporations always lead to bloody conflicts and president WB is just a marionet for the governing party…
Test text
Guys I am a die-hard republican..atleast some say that. and I hate with what’s going on with Bush..How can he get away with saying “.. this war started on my watch but it will end on yours ..”and that too with enough arrogance!! I think he should be allowed to be President for as long as this mess is not clean!!!Why should NEXT president -although REPUBLICAN- take up this mess?
If you are Republican, if you voted for Bush, then this is your war as much as his. So don’t try and disown it. Don’t pretend you’re suddenly smart now that you’ve figured out what the so-called hysterical BDS-suffering moonbat Bush-bashers knew all along if you’d only listened to them.
Think about it, 3,000 dead American soldiers who should still be walking and talking among us today.
Next time, listen to Al Gore. Al Gore was right.
AG – the idea of Bush being president for decades is not partucularly good. We need to get someone in there who will deal with his mess – and deport him and his minions to the Hague.
What a bunch of selfish americans you all are. before you go quoting scripture, let’s remember that it’s God who raises up kings and puts them down. Our heavenly Father put Bush in there for His purposes. I’m sure that if Saddam had been running America you would have been darn glad to be rid of him.
I can’t see Bush being equated with a king!Maybe a king-sized incompetent.
Beware the deception of language. The US ‘won’ the war in Iraq but you cannot ‘win’ an occupation. Similarly, you can win a bride but you can’t win a marriage.
We had an ill-advised victory followed by a foolish persistence in failure. Sooner or later you must admit that a situation is unhealthy and cannot be reconciled. Then you minimize your losses and get out.
With luck, the judge of history will dissolve the relationship leaving you with more than a single spoon and a hundred years of alimony!
Uhh, Perry.
Huh?
Every phase of this has had a subtitle:”Shock and Awe”"Mission Accomplished”"Stay the Course”"Not a Civil War”The American ending will likely be a picture of Marines evacuating a mob from the embassy roof in the exploding “green zone”.
Best analogy I’ve heard yet Perry.
The right has this thing for the word “victory”. Bad thing is? bush made the conditions of “victory” impossible. The “free, deomcratic, self sustaining, friend in the war on terror” Iraq he wanted is just not possible.
The first part of any responsible plan for Iraq is the removal of the top leadership. At the very least, Cheney should have the decency to step down. If not, he should be forced out by Bush. This will never happen, though, as this would constitute a political defeat for Bush, and that is the only thing that truly matters to him and his followers. So now thousands more will die, including our brave troops, so this piece of shit can save face. .
Just to be clear, though, I think Bush should not only be impeached as well, I believe he should stand trial for treason. Sending our troops into a war with no plan, completely undermanned, and with no understanding of the ramifications of the action, all for blatantly political purposes (”We’re the party of strong national defense!”), is far more than treasonous than what William Lindh did. Bush should face a firing squad for his criminal actions. And those that supported him (and the approximately eight people who still do) should be forced to watch, because after all it was these STUPID MOTHERFUCKERS who put this clown into office, and then RE-ELECTED HIM. Worthless, worthless, worthless pieces of dog shit.
hmmm… This is not a theocracy, it is a democracy. If you want a government led by “The Holy Scripture,” go live in Iran.
Listening to NPR, heard at least one Iraqi government official whine about the ISG report; geez, could it be that he is more interested in keeping a civil war (at least in Baghdad) going, and U.S. involvement, with concomitant funding, going rather than asserting any leadership?
“The American ending will likely be a picture of Marines evacuating a mob from the embassy roof in the exploding “green zone”.”
heheh lefty. I think I predicted the same about 9 months ago.
‘Cause ya know, I was against the war before I was against the war….
None of this should be any surpise to anyone. Just about anyone with a BRAIN predicted it.
Now the kookaide drinkers, that’s another story. They just bowed down to the bush god and took another big gulp. They create their own reality ya know.
Or was that bend over, not bow down? Nevermind. The outcome is the same….
I wonder how paulie, hankie, sollie, nathan et al feel about the report? The hard core republican warmongers sure are quiet here lately.
Maybe they’ll just salute the recomendations and say “yes sir, we were wrong, sir!”?
I guess the baker commission just didnt hear all the GOOD news in iraq?
Heheheheheh. Surely they had better sources than the damned liberal media?
And they STILL didnt see the good news in iraq?
lying is as lying does.
It’s bipartisan bush is a king sized f/u.
OMG, I am laughing so hard I can hardly type.
The rude pundit does it again.
Warning: Bad language, disgusting images, and a general speaking of the truth about the report.
heheheheheh
http://www.rudepundit.blogspot.com/
Maybe it’s the old bean-counter in me, but among the recommendations of the ISG is (at least) one which I embrace whole-heartedly: get the expenditures for Iraq, et al, back on the books. That is my translation of the rather dry verbiage which discusses the need to make Iraq expenditures a part of the normal budget process, rather than financing it through “emergency supplementals”. IOW, let the public know just how much this misadventure is really costing. Wanna bet that’s one that the Administration studiously avoids?
Another good reason to get them back on the books, so to speak, is due to the supplementals becoming “Christmas trees”, laden with all kinds of unrelated expenditures which do/would not survive the normal budgetary review.
For an “interesting” perspective on the ISG report, see:
http://www.redstate.com/
Warning: not for sensitive types.
Maybe the reason you haven’t heard from the right is because there is nothing new on this blog. I’m not able to come here everyday, but check in every once in awhile. As far as what I’ve read so far, this whole thread could have been written 4 months ago. BUSH BASH, BUSH BASH.
And yes, I did take one talking point from Rush today and that was that this is the “Iraqi Surrender Group.”
Just wondering, when the Dems get done “talking” to the Iraninans and Syrians. Will my jewish wife be flown at government expense to the island where Iran will want all the Jews to go to so they only have to use 1 nuke to take them all out, or will I have to pay for the ticket myself???
See, its those small details that get in the way. Don’t believe me, go ask Neville Chamberlain.
I’m not so sure we should be asking for iran and syria’s help here. I understand the surrender report to say that talking to them will help us figure out the “muslim way.” I see…
So if it is reported that a guard at Gitmo flushes a koran, that is worth several people dying. Or if a newspaper publishes a cartoons about mohammed, that is worth a few more people dying, and iran and syria will be the first ones to jump up and yell about how all muslims are being picked on. Why does this occur? Because islam is such a wonderful religion full of nothing but PEACE.
And yet, a sunni in Baghdad can blow up a shiite mosque and thats okay. Or a group of shiite muslims can pull a group of sunni muslims out of a mosque and pour kerosene on them and set them on fire. That also is okay.
Funny, I haven’t heard any great outcry from the muslim nations of iran and syria about this.
Gene Raston,
Not talking to Iran has worked so well up until this point, I don’t see why we don’t just continue.
Your admission of listening to Rush is, at least, honest. But it doesn’t help you case to mindlessly repeat his name-calling. “Iraqi surrender?” OK. I hereby deem you continuing war advocates the “Iraqi suicide squad.” Two can play at that game. At least the course of action I advocate doesn’t entail the destruction of the U.S. Army in order not to puncture poor W’s ego.
If the best you can do is to invoke Neville Chamberlain and your Jewish wife, I think you may as well concede defeat. The question of the U.S. leaving Iraq is not ‘if’–it’s ‘when.’ And that will be the best thing for all concerned–the image of your manliness notwithstanding.
America.Out.Now.
So, Gene, I’ll ask you what I have asked Fleet, what is your plan for “winning” in Iraq, how long will it take, and how do you define “victory?”
BTW – I am the “infamous Jew Boy” so don’t make this an anti-Semitic thing – it’s not.
This parsimony from the rudepundit:
“The bottom line of the report, though, seems to be that it’s time to pass the buck over to the Iraqis, after a few handy steps.”
Reminded me of this great Toles cartoon:
http://news.yahoo.com/comics/uclickcomics/20061205/cx_tt_uc/tt20061205
I will join with others Gene – what is YOUR plan? Same old same old? Has your boy’s deliberate invasion made things better?
Saddam was a thug – but he was OUR thug. Remember the pictures of him with Rummy? He was an enemy to Iran, Syria, alQuada, and Saudi Arabia. The hijackers came from Saudi Arabia/alQuada. So, was the logic to ingratiate ourselves to Saudi Arabia and alQuada by attacking their enemy? Have we now so appeased them that they will like us?
If you think that appeasing alQuada is the wy to go good for you. As for me, I do not support that.
The result of this deliberate screwup will be a Syria-Iraq-Iran alliance stretching from the Mediterrenean to Pakistan. This alliance will cast a wide shadow across the region. Congratulations Bush, you have succeeded where so many others have failed; you have united the Arabs and Persians – against us!
MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!
Our troops would make short work of the Iraq war if we had the mindset of our enemy and didn’t care if civilians got killed. Hell, they torture and kill civilians just for the fun of it. Then hide among them. Gotta love that Islam, religion of peace.
But we value life and they do not, so in waging the war, we are critically handicapped by our own morality. So we either have to change our own rules, or admit that we can’t rid Iraq of our enemy, who wear no uniforms and hide among the civilians. And then resolve to never go into another conflict half-assed.
” we can’t rid Iraq of our enemy, ”
That is because ‘our enemy’ is the people of Iraq. The only way to ‘rid Iraq of our enemy’ is genocide.
” we are critically handicapped by our own morality.”
Tell that to 600,000 dead Iraqis.
Which “Christian” alternative do you favor, outlander:
1) remain “critically handicapped by our own morality”or,2) not go “half-assed” and kill as many civilians/enemies as we can find?
Somebody bring the popcorn, can’t wait to hear this “answer”.
Ah Ben… dadgummit, you beat me to the nonsense “false dilemma”. How dare you!
So who when into Iraq half-assed?
The left, myself included, said before the fact that this would be the result. Even the most ill-informed political junkie could have done enough research to know that Shia and Sunni were enemies that would descend into civil war once the gloves were off.
Remember the old days? We would be greeted as liberators? We would be met on the streets of Baghdad with sweets and flowers? Freedom is on the march?
Mission accomplished?
All of this was foreseen. All of this could have been avoided. All of this is just a product of a fantasy of Geroge W Bush’ immagination. He wanted to be a “war president” and now he has his wish.
And we are going to pay for it.
George W Bush, along with Cheney, should be impeached, removed from office and turned over to the International court for trial for war crimes.
600,000 Iraqis.
3,000 Americans.
One trillion dollars.
The goodwill of the world.
Our moral standing as Americans.
All wasted by a two-bit wannabe cowboy from Crawford Texas.
“In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” George Orwell
The ‘left’ are revolutionaries.
Which “Christian” alternative do you favor, outlander:
1) remain “critically handicapped by our own morality”or,2) not go “half-assed” and kill as many civilians/enemies as we can find?
Somebody bring the popcorn, can’t wait to hear this “answer”.
Steven: Don’t ask moronic questions.
“Steven: Don’t ask moronic questions.”
Translation – Steven: Don’t ask questions I cannot answer.
Ben: Did American troops kill 600,000 Iraqi civilians?
Ben: Don’t provide moronic translations.
If you or even Steven would like to have a reasonable discussion, I’m all for it. But if you are going to ask stupid, set up questions with untruthful premises, I have better things to do boys.
The US unleashed forces that, in total, have killed about 660,000. Our actions have been estimated at about 100K.
Not counting those maimed.
So, outlander, how do YOU solve this short of massive blood-letting? Is Iraq better off today than before the invasion? Even the Republicans on the Baker comm say this has been a failure.
And, by the way, Bush knew or should have known this would happen. Even his daddy warned him.
Repost………. with an added name….
So, Gene and Outlander, I’ll ask you what I have asked Fleet, what is your plan for “winning” in Iraq, how long will it take, and how do you define “victory?”
Ben: I will always maintain that the intent was honorable and the action was justified. However, the task of keeping of the peace has become of such a nature that it is not possible to keep the Iraqis from killing each other. See my post above. I join just about everyone in wanting to get out of Iraq. But we have to get out only after the country is stabilized and able to defend itself and without letting the country slide further into anarchy. We owe the Iraqi innocents that.
So, I’m certainly open to the various ideas being tossed around, as if I have any say. How ’bout you???
Gene, Outlander, and fleettwood,
Taxpayers also paid for “war games” that showed that EVEN with 400,000 troops during post-invasion, it could turn into CHAOS. It has.
‘War simulation in 1999 pointed out Iraq invasion problems’http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/11/04/war.games.ap/
Like Kerry meant to say — if you don’t do your homework, you get us “stuck in Iraq”.
“the action was justified”
Explain, Outlander, how was the action justified?
Really – all terrorist claims have been disproven, all WMD claims were proven to be wrong, etc.
So how was the action justified?
Really.
outlander – ditto WSC’s question. How was the invasion justified? And how do you stabalize it now? Like they have said; the ball is in your court. the Baker Commission has issued its report; it is up to the cokehead-in-chief to act.
A ray of sunshine hitting your pitcher of koolade Outie?
Face it. The goal of an Iraq that is free and secure and an ally is just not gonna happen. It never was. I say bush did not know that. I say those who tell him what to do did know that.
Your concern for the Iraqi people is noted. Where was it I wonder during “shock and awe”?
It used to be that Iraq was stable and was an enemy to our enemies Iran, Syria and alQuada. Bush deliberately destroyed that. When Syria and Iran move to fill the vacuum left by Bush’s deliberate destruction there will be no one to blame but BushCo. As I have predicted (and predicted before Bush launched this) the Syria-Iraq-Iran alliance will dominate the region.
MISSION ACCOMPLSHED!
Oh, you mindless Bush-haters! You’re so smug with your…facts, and all! So what if reality is against Bush! You just don’t understand!
Hmmm. Just trying it on for size. And, sure enough, the words sounded as inane when I was saying them as they do when I hear them coming from others.
CF – you didn’t do it right. Take a big handful of whites first. I think Rush might be able to get some for you. Or maybe do a couple of lines …
For those that wanted this war, are ya happy now? Did the manly men in the Whitehouse open up a big enough can of whip ass? Did you get to do a couple a tours of combat. Killed enough innocent bystanders yet? Can we stop this bs already?
Ben Huie,
Or some viagra. A lot of viagra, in fact. Gotta surmount the Oxycontin.
Open Letter to y’all.
Really, folks, it’s time to stop pretending this was anything but a monumental con job from the start, and that it’s anything but monumental fuck-up. The ISG report gives you permission to start heading for the exits.
Seriously. Let it go. The first step to getting somewhere is, simply, to admit that you were had, and that Bush is the shitbag I and others have been saying he is all along.
Until you concede that, you’re going to remain invested in the notion that, with respect to the current Administration, we’re dealing with rational agents who are capable of acting from honest motives. We aren’t. They’ve lied about everything and they go on doing so. They don’t give a fuck about anyone but themselves. And they’ll stay in Iraq until Kindgom Come rather than admit they were wrong.
We can’t afford them any more. By ‘we’ I mean all of us on this blog: outlander, Heckler, fleettwood, KSGolfnut, Hank Price, Nathan, no less than CF, the Cap’n, J R, Stephen Davis, Ben Huie, or Vaughn Tolle. All of us. We’re all in this together.
No good can come from us staying one second longer in Iraq. None. The factions in Iraq are going to have to figure it out for themselves, and the longer we’re there, the longer it’s gonna take. If Iraq comes apart, it will do so regardless of whether we’re there or not.
It’s in a death spiral. We can get in its way or get out of the way. We can’t stop it. But it is possible that our troops on the ground might die trying.
Reading a comment from a right-winger like Gene Raston really puts into perspective how truly simple most wingnuts are. But back here in reality Gene, even your OWN DEFENSE SECRETARY SAYS WE ARE LOSING IN IRAQ. The headline today in the KC Star:
“Panel: Bush’s Iraq policies have failed”
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/16171544.htm
Bottom line: any perceived change of course will be taken as a defeat by Bush and the larger right. THESE PEOPLE PUT POLITICS AHEAD OF THE LIVES OF OUR SOLDIERS. So what do they do? Certainly not take the time to actually read a few articles about the Iraq Study Group’s conclusions, much less the actual report.
No, that would entail dealing with reality and the failure of their beloved leaders. Instead, they go to get their fix of extreme right narcotic in the forms of Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity. There they get what they came for: to be told that they were right all along, and still are right. Iraq is not so bad. Its just the media out to get Bush. And those spineless bastards of the Study Group. And the incoming Secretary of Defense. All of them clearly hate America and want us to lose there. This is demonstrated through their acknowledgment of events on the ground, ie what we’re doing is not working, ie reality.
Right-wingers detest reality because taking an honest look at it would require them to admit that the political ideology they so fervently believe in is an utter failure. The events of the last five years, when the right reached the zenith of their power, have proven this failure beyond any reasonable doubt. And yet there are still wingers like Gene, head buried in sand, unwilling and unable to see the truth right in front of them. What a damn shame.
Oh outlander,
I am so sorry that reality is so difficult for you to process. There may be some medications that will help you. But, then again, maybe not.
See you later.
“If you or even Steven would like to have a reasonable discussion, I’m all for it. But if you are going to ask stupid, set up questions with untruthful premises:”
Outed,These blatant lies are unbecoming for an alleged christian, such as yourself. You can do better. Show us.
“untruthful premises” – like WMDs?
As I said above:
“In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” George Orwell
All we are doing are revolutionary acts.
“Ben: Did American troops kill 600,000 Iraqi civilians?”Posted by: outlander | December 06, 2006 at 09:17 PM”
Outted,
These deaths occurred after our invasion of Iraq. Are we responsible? No, the republican pary of responsibility is NEVER responsible for ANYTHING.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/10/AR2006101001442.html
Really, if you think you are helping your cause, I would rethink that if I were you.
Steven – the Ministry of Truth says everything is going fine. And the Ministry of Peace is bringing peace and prosperity to Iraq.
Well, this is not a good day for America.
It took three and three quarters years for the President’s own people (Baker) to tell him what they should have told have told him before we went in.
“I would only deploy military troops if there were a clear EXIT STRATEGY . . . If we don’t keep sending American troops all around the world in ‘nation building’ exercises, we’re going to have trouble down the road. And I’m going to prevent that.”
Candidate Bush, Sept 2000
Cap’n,
Ouch. But thanks for the verification–as if any were needed–that W has lied to us every step of the way.
Our way of life = 2 hundred yearsTheir way of life = 6 thousands yearsIt is somewhat ignorant to think that you can impose your way of life on their way of life.Do you think so?
10 more Americans soldiers die today
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16075920/
And http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/19/AR2006061900699.html
“Vice President Cheney yesterday defended his much-criticized claim a year ago that the Iraq insurgency was in its ‘last throes’ and said he believes that Iraq ‘turned a corner’ last year when its people held elections creating a constitution and a government.
“Speaking at the National Press Club, Cheney predicted that 10 years from now people will look back at 2005 and say, ‘That’s when we began to get a handle on the long-term future of Iraq.’”
War is peace.Slavery is freedom.Ignorance is strength.
Steven: I don’t want to get in a pissing contest with you. But I’ll draw the line at personal attacks. You accuse me of lying. Let’s have an example. If you can’t show it, then you are a liar. And before you do, look up the definition of a lie since your reality seems to be a bit tenuous.
And since you are handing out advice and claim to be a professional, my friend, try to act like it.
The commission made it unequivocable for for the Bushies, “Stay the Course isn’t working”. Bush will take that to mean it’s time for a new slogan.
Hee hee hee hee
I love the smell of ass kickin’ in the morning.
Outie, just admit it. Get over it. If you dont, you risk sounding like Gene.
Christian is as christian does. I already had this battle with outie months ago regarding what part of “thou shalt not lie” he didnt understand.
How quickly they forget.
But please, continue putting off your admission of reality by asking for a definition of “lie”.
I think deliberatly posting untruths is a lie by ANY definition.
Bush’s war is a perfect example of the saying “all evil begins with a lie”.
Do you righties really want to continue to support killing brought on by a lie? Multiple lies? Blatent lies?
It’s ok to lie if it is the preznit? The pastor? A winger?
When is a lie not ok?
The spectacular failure of 9/11/01 was the Bush administration. Yes they dropped the ball big time.
Bush still seems to want to go his own way. Bring our soldiers home. We need to get them totally out of the mideast because that is what is driving the violence.
*The president lied to the world*James Baker III says Iraq will never be a shining beacon of democracy*We invaded a country that did not invade us and had no capability to do so
http://www.icasualties.org/oif/http://nationalpriorities.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=182http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=13538http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=7989http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=5529
(Condi Rice has a Chevron oil tanker with her name on it)
“The president lied to the world about Iraq”
Prove it.
And don’t say, “he told us there were weapons of mass destruction and there weren’t.”
It was dishonest Democrat strategy (that’s right, a lie) to start accusing the president of lying, knowing that a lie repeated often enough, becomes accepted as the truth. Of course they were fully complicit in the original decision to go to Iraq.
They made a political issue out of it and tagged the president with the decision they weren’t man enough to admit they had agreed with. Including accusing him of lying. Of course, in doing so, they were doing so themselves. Good politics. Lousy ethics.
Oh and kfg. Welcome back. I haven’t missed you at all.
“I already had this battle with outie months ago regarding what part of “thou shalt not lie” he didnt understand.”
Better do your “bone dig”. Your gonna come up empty and on the short end of the stick, as usual.
These Bushbots could have a videotape of George W. Bush laughing at how he got away with lying to the country about Iraq and these Bushbots would still not believe it.
Why? Because then they would have to admit they voted not once but twice for this man. What does that say about them as intelligent beings?
Does anyone have a link to the report?
Sol, I posted one yesterday, and at least one other “regular” posted one as well. Check yesterday’s open forum thread; I don’t recall where I posted mine.
Sol, see my 10:45 post of December 6, Baker Report thread.
Thx
outlander,
“It was dishonest Democrat strategy (that’s right, a lie) to start accusing the president of lying, knowing that a lie repeated often enough, becomes accepted as the truth.”
Oh. You mean like Cheney’s continuing insistence a) that Iraq possessed WMD’s, and b) that Iraq was complicit with al Qaeda in the 9/11 attacks? And the viral way those LIES were used to sway public opinion even after the WMD report was issued?
Nice try, outlander. But when it comes to fascistic big lies, you would do well to look at the guys who have had the megaphone for the last six years.
And, of course, what do you do but take up with the usual wingnut strategy of projecting, on to your opponenets, the very activities that you and your side have been up to.
The Bush Administration absolutely lied about the presence of WMD’s in Iraq, and absolutely lied about Iraqi complicity in 9/11. Absolutely.
outlander, if you want me to prove Bush lied, first tell me what your standard of proof is.
Would a recording of Bush saying something that is not true be proof enough? Or does proof require mind-reading ability to show that a) he meant what he said and didn’t misspeak and b) he knew at the time that what he said was not true.
tw: Let’s use the standard that you would think fair should you yourself be accused of lying.
Sigh. . .people, people, give it up. You don’t get it. You’re obviously too invested in the “reality-based community.”
“The aide said that guys like me were ”in what we call the reality-based community,” which he defined as people who ”believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.” I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. ”That’s not the way the world really works anymore,” he continued. ”We’re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you’re studying that reality — judiciously, as you will — we’ll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that’s how things will sort out. We’re history’s actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.’”
http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/04/10/con04443.html
Rage,
Would that we only had to “study what they do.” Turns out that we have to act as the grownups who clean up the messes left in the wake of their fantastical, juvenile fantasies.
outlander,
You’ve bought into a mass delusion. I hope you figure it out in timely fashion. But if you don’t, it’s your problem. Expect no accommodation on my part to your distorted, slanted image of reality. Events have proven me right. I don’t have to prove they’ve proven me right.
CF: That is all well and good to talk in generalities. That way you don’t get tied down. Do it myself at times.
But if you want to expand a little as to what you believe my “distorted, slanted image of reality” consists of, you might be surprised at what you don’t find.
Outlander,
Read my earlier post.
Lest we forget, I just realized that today is Pearl Harbor Day. My best to the World War II vets, my Dad included.
where are the WMDs? The evidence of a Saddam-alQuada link? (And I don’t mean the discredited Curveball)
outlander,
I apologize for crossing the line on personal attacks. I try not to do that, but I think I definitley failed on that last night.
In my defense, I was responding to this post of yours:”Our troops would make short work of the Iraq war if we had the mindset of our enemy and didn’t care if civilians got killed. Hell, they torture and kill civilians just for the fun of it. Then hide among them. Gotta love that Islam, religion of peace.
“But we value life and they do not, so in waging the war, we are critically handicapped by our own morality. So we either have to change our own rules, or admit that we can’t rid Iraq of our enemy, who wear no uniforms and hide among the civilians. And then resolve to never go into another conflict half-assed.”
Even taking your standards into account, it was unusually biased sweeping generalization about a very large portion of the earth’s population. As an added bonus, it gave what sounded like a characteristic Bush false dilemma. If I had asked you to provide an example of unclear thinking, I don’t think you could have come up with a better example.
When I resorted to the “lie” thing, it is mainly because I think you are much smarter than the example above would suggest. I have over-estimated people before and perhaps I was guilty of that again.
At any rate, I apologize. I will endeavor to do better.
And outlander,Tell your dad thanks from me, too.
Would this all have turned out the same if the Iraqis had been capable of “shock and awe-ing” us back? The answer to that would reveal a good deal of cowardice in our leadership. It is beyond arrogance to attack when the opposition can offer only offer feeble resistance.
outlander,
You want specifics? Have you read the Downing Street memo, and other similar docs?http://www.downingstreetmemo.com/
Outlander demands “proof” that Bush lied.
I once again issue my challenge to the right-wing. Show me ONE factual statement that Bush has made that has been proven CORRECT.
By factual, I mean a statement that can be proven true or false.
For instance, when Bush says that “we’ve turned the corner” in Iraq, that means nothing because it’s just a metaphor that is not provable.
But on the other hand, when Bush said, “the vast majority of my tax breaks go to those at the bottom of the economic ladder,” that’s provable. And it has been proven false–the bottom 60 percent get about 14 percent of his tax breaks. The top one percent get more than everybody else combined.
It’s not simply false . . . it’s a damned lie, and Bush knows it. Didn’t stop him from repeating it over and over again though.
The only thing I can think of that Bush said that is provably true is when he said to a tuxedo-clad audience at a $1,000 a plate fundraiser, “some call you the haves and the have mores, but I call you ‘my base.’”
That was true.
outlander,
I am against bigotry of all varieties. For that I won’t apologize. The above referenced post of yours seemed filled with bigotry. If I over-reacted to that post, the bigotry angle was why.
If we make our war on terror, a war on Islam, we had better be prepared to fight another 100 year war. I am not interested in my son having to live/die with that legacy.
capn – all those false statements do not prove that Bush “lied”. Maybe he is simply totally delusional.
Ben,I think your conclusion is the default position of all Bushbots. He believes his lies, therefore he doesn’t lie.
An exception to this position is that Bush did acknowledge that he lied to the press about retaining Rumsfeld when he was in the process of replacing him. Bush’s rationalization: he was chosing the moral highground, to not influence the 06 election. Was that dumb bastard so far removed from reality that he did not realize that Rumsfeld’s removal might have helped him? Apparently so…
Outlander
Do you not see the concern of your fellow Americans that you FINALLY wake up a see the truth?
bush HAS lied. Two examples would be when he asserted that there was no rendition to secret prisons…..before he admitted that there was. Then he tried to galvanize you, the rest of his base and poor folks like Nathan. You all had been defending Rummy at every turn. I’m STILL not sure just what the truth is in Rumsfelds sudden departure. But clearly bush is lieing somewhere or everywhere in that.
Outie you seem particularly bitter this thread. Somebody musta pissed in the koolade?ADMIT IT. bush’s “vision” for Iraq is not practical. Hell he aint listening to anyone else. Maybe if folks like you throw the koolade back at him he will finally get it.
Bush’s rationalization: he was chosing the moral highground, to not influence the 06 election.Was that dumb bastard so far removed from reality that he did not realize that Rumsfeld’s removal might have helped him? Apparently so…
Or in the alternative, he was just lying again. (which do you think?).
A. Bush is a liarB. Bush is dumbC. Bush is a dumb liarD. Bush is delusional and none of the above apply
So what’s the options adopt an advisor role, send GI’s into police and military force to train (and be killed by their trainees in the process) or the Vietnamization, I mean Iraqization of the war? No good options there either. Sometimes it’s just so much smarter not wading into quicksand than trying to figure how to get out of it!
The Iraq war is of course religions faultand once we do away with religion, America won’t ever find it necessary to invade sovereign states for their natural resources!
Eureka!