Now that the infamous Phelps family of Topeka is starring in a movie, can a reality TV show be far behind?
According to a story in the Topeka Capital-Journal, members of the Westboro Baptist Church had a festive time screening the documentary “Fall From Grace,” which examines the church’s virulent crusade against all things gay. It was made by KU film student Ryan Jones.
About 30 church members, arrayed in their trademark GodHatesFags.com T-shirts, alternately cheered, sang and hurled invective at the screen — not unlike a “Rocky Horror” audience, except for the costumes.
Church spokeswoman Shirley Phelps-Roper later gave the film what amounted to two thumbs-up: “Anytime we get the word out there that we are a doomed country, it’s a good thing.”
(UPDATE: KU filmmaker Ryan Jones called to make the point that his film is an unbiased look at the controversy engendered by the Phelps family, and is in no way intended as a sympathetic portrayal of their actions.)
Posted by Dave Knadler
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138 Comments
Actually the Phelps have been in a couple Michael Moore shows (one involving a pink bus full of gays), the other was a documentary about Phelps called Hatemonger.
Doug,
Here’s the link to the aforementioned confrontation of Fred Phelps by Michael Moore, from “The Awful Truth.”
http://youtube.com/watch?v=mPoSPVnn8i4
If you like the Fall From Grace movie – you will love the Hatemongers.com movie and stay tuned – the BBC is going to come out with their own documentary in the spring – good stuff – america is DOOMED and we are the happy, fortunate and blessed servants of the Living God that get to tell you that!
Love you! (See Leviticus 19:17,18 for GOD’S standard of love – the only one that counts! :)
Is that REALLY you cuckoo bananas whackalady?
Oh DO stick around. There are plenty of folks who would LOVE the chance to chew your rather ample ass.
You and your family and your church are a contemptible disease.
I”ve noticed that whenever I either hear the Phelps spew firsthand, or encounter a news story, I feel dirty, and of course ashamed and embarassed.
And then there is the lingering odor of brimstone!
Shirley, if that’s you, you people need to go to the dictionary and look up “love” and “hate.” I think you’re a bit mixed up.
John 8:7b “When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “If any of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”
Hey everybody?
If you click the email, you find that we in fact ARE in the presence of a despicable member of the Phelps clan! Let’s give her a nice warm WEblog welcome! I’ll start.
Shirley? There is a growing perception that Fred Phelps is a self hating closet homosexual. Can you shed any light on this?
Shirley: SEE YOU NEXT TUESDAY!
If you get my thrust….
Leviticus: the last bastion of a scoundrel.
Do you ever eat shellfish, Shirley? Or milk with meat?
These so-called-Christians are what give the rest of us a bad name. I just moved to KS about 6 months ago but I’ve been dealing with them for years – they came to my hometown “protesting.” They are despicable and disgusting. Because of people like them, I’m afraid to tell many people that I’m a Christian! They need to actually read that Bible that they like to spew “quotes” from.
Nobody should be afraid to say they’re Christians based on the Phelps’ clan. Unless you’re one like the Terry Fox group.
I’m curious, what’s next Tuesday Erik?
I think the Phelps’ are all suffering from brain wasting from Syphilis.
They might try following the “Christ” in “Christian.”
The Phelps clan is becoming more hated than the hate they spread for gays.
What goes around, comes around.
Karma, baby.
Fred Phelps is pathetic. We all know it. “Heck,” even he and his brainwashed minions know it.
It’s not about God for them, it’s about attention.
Just ignore them. When they don’t get the attention they want they either move on or do something even more stupid than usual and look even worse.
With all that is going on in the world, these people are the least of our worries!
This movie should be required viewing for Crusader X. He might get a good look in the mirror….
People in Kansas claim they hate Fred Phelps but 67% of the people voted with Fred banning gay marriage for a second time. They go to churches which preach the same message of extermination of homosexuals as Fred does. One radio station in Wichita gives two preachers a radio show where they air the same views as Fred. Millions of Christians in America read and believe in the same Bible as Fred does.
Fred Phelps simply repeats the same lines uttered in the Bible. Is he hated for his bigotry or for his honest belief that the Bible is true?
Don’t forget and REALLY UGLY too!
I agree Doug, just because the evangelicals don’t carry picket signs to funerals, the anti-gay message is the exact same.
Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Fox, all preach basically the same thing that Phelps does.
Shirley hon?
I’m curious.
I was given to understand that folks of your persuasion generally advocated the subjugation of the wife to her husband.
Given that, why the quasi feminist hyphenation of your name? Isn’t that a bit hypocritical? Is it just that you want it CLEAR that you are a blood relative of the pariah that is Fred Phelps? Is it that you wear the pants in the family? I mean I can’t imagine much of a man who would share a room with you let alone a bed. Ewwww. Mr. Roper is of course free to address me. Or is he?
Now you and yours are pretty good at picking on people at their weakest moment….when they are grieving a lost loved one. But I say that makes you short on courage to say the least. I say there are folks on this forum who can send you running back under your rock. There are lawyers here who can make you look like the worst shyster. There are religious people here who can take you chapter and verse for the hatemonger that you are. And finally there are folks here with just as much and more nerve than you who can make you look as distant as possible from anything approaching a respectable human being.
So come on back Shirley. Vent, rant, preach and bleat. Let’s see what you’ve got.
“They go to churches which preach the same message of extermination of homosexuals as Fred does.”
Oh please Doug… when will you stop?? If there is a church that preaches extermination of homosexuals it isn’t following the teachings of Christ. But truly, I don’t know of one.. please enlighten us with a link to their web site!! I would like to send them a message of rebuke.
The Bible says homosexuals should be killed and there is no shortage of churches in Kansas that say the Bible in 100% true and should be followed to the letter.
Here’s on for you, Spirit One Christian Center:
http://www.spiritonecc.org/subpages/aboutus.html
This is taken from their website:
“We Believe:
The Bible is the only infallible and authoritative Word of God. (2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21)”
They say it right there, the Bible is infallible, is the authority and it’s the same Bible which says gays should be executed. Are they lying or is the Bible lying?
I was with them on the point that all sinners should be stoned until I realized that they were talking about throwing rocks.
Doug..
The Bible did not lie.. but the Old Testament law was fulfilled by Jesus Christ. The OT also said that an adultress should be stoned, but when confronted with one “caught in the act”? How did Jesus handle the situation? He said “I do not condemn you, now go and sin no more”. (my paraphrased version).
I wasn’t aware Jesus killed all the homosexuals. If that was the case then why was there a need to ban gay marriage?
He didn’t… and there really was no need… gay marriage should be a church issue, not a legal issue.
If the law was to kill homosexuals and Jesus fulfilled that law then all the homosexuals would have been killed. Of course that was 2,000 years ago so he might have missed a few since then since his donkey jousting efforts could only do so much.
Frankly, you made such an absurd statement, even for your standards. Makes me wonder why you mentioned it at all.
Your logic is what is absurd Doug. ok.. maybe I didn’t explain it in simple enough terms.
Jesus forgave the homosexuals, adultresses, liars, the greedy, the lazy, those that hated… all sinners.
If you weren’t so anti-Christian, maybe you could understand that all Christians do not believe or act the same. All do not hate.. all are not Republicans.. all do not listen to Rush… some do.. unfortunately, they are the ones that make the news.
Oh my mistake, I thought you said he fulfilled the law which said all homosexuals should be executed. Fulfilling a law would be the execution of the law, hence the execution of the homosexuals. Pardon me for taking what you say as what you meant.
As for gays being forgiven, they have nothing to be forgiven for. It’s like Kramer forgiving African-Americans for having darker skin.
Rush is a pretty kickass band so I don’t know why I’d be upset if people listen to them. Crank up Tom Sawyer for all I care.
How many of you have friends who are alcoholics, do drugs, or have had an extra-marital relationship? Chances are that you may think they’re a great person and a great friend but you don’t agree with their “extra-curricular” activities, right? Well, it’s the same thing with me and gays/lesbians (and no, I’m not trying to say what they have is a disease or psychotic problem, it’s just an analogy people). As a Christian who fully believes in the Bible, I may not agree with someone’s lifestyle but that doesn’t mean that I hate them. There’s a saying: love the sinner, not the sin. I have many friends who are gay and we get along just fine. They know how I feel about their lifestyle but they also know that I think they are a great person. I don’t hound them to change their ways and they don’t ask me to change my ways. Granted, I wish they would change their ways because I do believe they won’t go to heaven and I pray for them often but in no way do I ever spew hatred towards them or treat them differently.
Doug…
Have you EVER lied about being gay? or for any other reason?
Then you need forgiven.
I should add that by “you” I mean those that think all Christians are gay-hating, hypocritical, backwood idiots…
It really depends on if the intent of the lie was to cause harm. If a lie is said to protect someone from harm then it would be acceptable. There was a time many years ago during the holiday break that some people came to the dorm asking if any women lived there. Certainly women lived in the same dorm but the man wasn’t going to divulge that information so he lied to them and said no.
He should be forgiven for lying to protect his fellow dorm mates? I don’t think so, however you see this as some crime.
Being a homosexual doesn’t cause anyone any harm. Just because it makes you feel uncomfortable to know that homosexuals exist doesn’t mean the homosexual has anything to feel guilty about and seek your forgiveness.
“…doesn’t mean the homosexual has anything to feel guilty about and seek your forgiveness.”
I believe that she mean’s His (God’s) forgiveness not her own.
Preachers and religious zealots tend to have a god complex. When they say they are speaking for a god they are simply reflecting their own views. She meant I needed to apologize to her. Besides, it’s quite pointless to ask an Atheist to apologize to her fictional god.
Doug you don’t have to ask my forgiveness or any other persons. The forgiveness they said you need is from God. The death of Jesus Christ on the cross allowed all to ask for forgiveness and be assured of eternal life with Christ Jesus. I don’t think homosexuals are bad people anymore than people including myself who commit other sins. We all have the same opportunity for forgiveness and if anyone chooses to reject that it is a personal choice. The Phelps go against everything I have ever been taught in church. Read the book of John in the New Testament and you will see the love God had for all people including gays. He didn’t leave anyone out. This is probably to much information for a blog but don’t sell committed Christians short because of a kook fringe that is practicing hate and calling it Christianity.
Um… KansasSam, I’m sorry. I think I said “she” when referring to you earlier, but I just realized that your email says samuel so chances are you’re a guy. Sorry. Will you please forgive me:)
The only person telling me I need forgiveness for nothing I’ve done is you. There is no god here except for the one you think you are.
Your Bible says all gays should be slaughtered for their “abomination.” It’s pretty simple to understand. You claim to believe in this Bible but you reject that part. You pick and choose what you want to believe then declare that to be the word of your god. In reality it’s your word and you want everyone to follow your teachings.
If Phelps is such a “kook fringe” then why was it for thousands of years perfectly acceptable to execute someone for being gay? Phelps is just trying to keep the long standing belief of fundamentalist Christianity alive. If he is such a kook then why do so many people still profess that he is right by saying the Bible is 100% accurate? Why does your Jesus say that all the laws of Moses shall not change?
If you reject this part of the Bible then why not reject all of it? Or do you just want people to follow your own personal version of Christianity where you are the god and prophet and everyone should seek your forgiveness? Phelps is just following what he reads, you are following what you want to read.
Doug,The idea is that Jesus replaced the law of the old testement with the era of grace. Look into the book of Acts, it explains this, and this in more detail than I could here. This is why Christians, although the religion was an ofshoot of Judism, obviously, don’t follow the old testement kosher rules.
Has this always been followed? No, the church through history has often fallen victim of evil men who used it for their own purposes. (SP?)
I thought I was a pretty learned bible person but I am missing the part about ‘killing all gays’. Where is that? I am always looking to educate myself. By the way because you don’t believe in my God doesn’t mean he doesn’t exist. It just means that is your right to not believe. The law of Moses that was referred to in the New Testament was the 10 Commandments or at least that is what I was taught in Sunday School many years ago. The laws of the rituals such as circumcision were no longer necessary for salvation.
It’s in Leviticus. Perhaps you should read some of the Phelps’ signs, they often reference the passage.
I don’t believe in your god because your god, like all the other gods, don’t exist. BTW, there are more than just 10 commandments, there are about 613.
JB, your Jesus god said the laws of Moses will not change or pass. Does that make your Jesus a liar? Or does it mean your immutable Jehovah just created a bunch of laws that really weren’t necessary, like the one that said if someone comes along preaching that his (god’s) laws should be changed that that person should be executed?
Frankly I don’t think you Christians read the Bible you have so much interest in. I suggest all of you take off your Bible blinders and actually try reading it for once.
Doug, Christian reconstructionists believe that the 613 laws that they identify as being the laws of Moses are still in effect. I believe that the death of Jesus Christ fullfilled these laws or his death would have been for nothing. No one can be good enough to obey all these laws and so by the Grace of God and the death of Jesus we are forgiven. Sorry you don’t believe in my God but that still doesn’t make me hate you or wish you harm.
Hey, I don’t follow the laws but I’m not a hypocrite who worships the Bible and believes that whatever I pick and choose should be followed. I don’t see how Christians can criticize anyone for not following their religion when their religion differs from person to person each picking and choosing what their true religion is.
99% of the world doesn’t believe in your god.
Doug, I beg you not to read small quotes of Jesus out of context with what was going on in the situation.
In the big biblical words, the old testement is known as the dispensation of the law, and the time of Jesus and after is known as the dispensation of grace, if I’m not mistaken.
Jesus gave us the example for action by helping those in society who where cast out and hated- tax collectors, samarian, adulturers, ect.
Die of ass-cancer, Shirl.
“If you get my thrust….”
Hmmmmm, sounds sexual to me.
Doug I really don’t know the percentage of people in world who are Christians but I do know that the Saint James Version of the bible is the most sold book is all of recorded history. I hope that you don’t think that I am critizing you or any other gay for your lifestyle. I’m just saying I am a Christian and I believe that under grace I have been saved. I set in judgement on no one because Christ taught us ‘to not judge lest you be also judged’.
So, why did Jesus have to die for our sins if it was God that made the law that He died for and Jesus was God in Trinity?
In other words, why the Hell (?) would God make a law that Her own Son would have to die for?
Isn’t that like some sort of divine child abuse?
Wow JB, so Jesus was the first one on the planet to hate taxes. Well heck, I guess that makes the guy a saint.
“So, why did Jesus have to die for our sins if it was God that made the law that He died for and Jesus was God in Trinity?”
To prove how much he loved us, he made the ultimate sacrifice.
ksgrm, the entire point of religion is to judge others. How else can you use religion to make others feel guilty and demand that they ask fictional gods for forgiveness? Even on this one thread Christians can’t agree about their own religion, so which one of your versions should I follow? Should I follow the one that says I shouldn’t judge others, should I follow the one that says I should?
AFN,
You say you hate the sin, but love the sinner. You have gay friends and accept them. How far does your friendship go? Do you support gay marriage or civil unions?
I guess that God was a compassionate God who realized the fraility of human kind. He knew our weaknesses after Eve ate that apple and over 700 years before Jesus was born in the book Isaiah God prophisied that a Savior would be born and would be crucified for the salvation of mankind. You know my belief in Christ might be as you say a belief in something non-existent – but if I get to the end and it is indeed the end I have lost nothing. I lived a good life, loving my neighbors and doing good for those in need. But if on the other hand as I believe and Jesus is indeed my Lord and Savior what an eternity. THis is getting a little heavy for a Phelps blog and I still feel that they have missed the boat completely. See you at another blog.
“The idea is that Jesus replaced the law of the old testement with the era of grace.”
The Old Testament is the history of the Jews. Christianity only came about AFTER the birth of Christ, hence the name.
If Jesus replaced the laws of the OT with the era of grace, why are people like Phelps, Fox, and the rest referring to what has been replaced?
This is where the problem of “pick and choose” comes in. If following the NT is true Christianity (i.e. following the teachings of Christ), why is there a need to go back to passages in the OT that contradict Jesus’ teachings? And why only choose some things (gays, for one), but not others, such as stoning women and babies, not wearing blended fabrics, forbidden food, etc.?
If Jesus already died for my sins on the cross (sins not yet committed?), why am I required to ask for forgiveness? Isn’t this redundant?
Hedging your sins?
I agree ksgrm, but I am going to answer this one last question I guess… I’ll tell you the truth, I’m a little torn on the issue of gay marriages and civil unions. I’m leaning towards what kansassam said earlier, “gay marriage should be a church issue, not a legal issue.” I wouldn’t want to keep anyone from their civil rights, that is not place to judge, on the other hand that would be supporting something that technically I believe is wrong. I’m sure you will take this as a sign of my weakness in and of my beliefs, but I just see this as an issue that I’m still searching out – my small human brain can not comprehend everything that God has planned for our world.
Grace is only grace if you accept it. As far as different interruptions of the bible that could be because we all are all human and as such have human fralities. Kinda like the IRS laws. There are thousands of books that have been published and they all disagree on some things in the way the law is written. One thing I know for certain is that by asking forgiveness for my sins and making every effort to go and sin no more I am covered under that grace. It doesn’t mean that I will sin no more because that is where the human part comes in.
“To prove how much he loved us, he made the ultimate sacrifice.”
BTW – to be correct, if you are referencing God, you should capitalize the “He.”
But anyway, the story of a Messiah that “died” for our sins and was resurrected after three days is an ancient Greek myth, commonly told during that period. If Paul/Saul was going to use mythology to further his spread of “Christianity” he could have used something a little more original.
The Gnostic Gospels (Nag Hammandi) make no mention of Jesus’ resurrection. The value of the Nag Hammandi scrolls (approximately 300 – 500 CE)is that they have not been repeatedly translated over centuries and are the closest thing to the actual text without having been distorted by political/religious bias.
Secular Roman writings from the time indicate that, in fact, a Jewish rebel by the name of Jesus (Joshua) was crucified at the time of Christ. There is no mention of resurrection until “Christian” writings from 70 – 100 CE, which would be roughly 40 – 70 years after Jesus’ death.
Jesus’ most certainly had important philosophies to share, particularly “love thy neighbor as yourself,” however, it is questionable that even Jesus claimed divinity.
AFN I really meant to go away but your reply caught me. I think that several of the issues currently in the political arena have no place there. Gay marriage and abortion are just two of those. I can only present my beliefs to others. I can’t expect them to accept them just because I think I am right. I do think we are to take the message of Christ to as many people as we can and then we are step away and let Christ work. No one can be saved because of me but they can be saved by the message of Christ.
Hmm, I bet the trolling identity thief is one of the Phelp’s clan.
Is there an Ian who is a member?
“Any man who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultary.”
And how do the fundamentalists deal with all the adulters in their midst.
Benign toleration.
Picking and choosing which sins are consigned to hellfire and damnation which get the blind eye.
Let’s see, homosexuality is a lifestyle practiced by a small relatively powerless minority and divorce is a sin that some half of the congration (tithing members all) have engaged in.
Which one is going to be the safest target to stoke our self-righteous egos with?
Hmmm . . .
No answer Shirl?
That’s what I thought.
You’re a gutless turd.
Cap once again you have missed the point. It isn’t for me or any other Christian to judge the actions of others. It is the responsibility of the minister to present the facts from the bible. It is my responsibility to confirm that word with my understanding of the bible and then my responsibility to apply that message to my life. If in my social life I think their are injustices that I can square with my biblical beliefs I will pray for that person or people. I have never demonstrated on a street corner/think those that do can do as they feel led. Not sure why you are so bitter but hope the optimism of the season catches you. By the way I still remember that you are a wrestling fan and you can’t be all bad.
Ksgrm– hehe, good one! Terry Fox and the gay bashers aren’t “judging the actions of others?”
Okay, sure . . . you betcha . . .
BTW, I’m not bitter. I’m highly AMUSED at Christians who break their arms patting themselves on the back so they can feel superior to others.
That’s what made the “Left Behind” series so popular too. The Rapture Right got to imagine that they were so pure they get bodily transported to heaven while all “those people” had to stay and endure God’s wrath . . .
Hey, that’s Christian of them!
If you want bitter, read Mark Twain’s “To the Person Sitting in Darkness” in which he rakes missionaries in China over the coals . . .
Or “The War Prayer” is also a Twain classic.
See Cap I can only be responsible for ME. Terry Fox is responsible for himself. I don’t want to read bitter books and I didn’t write ‘Left Behind’ series. I believe we are formed by the things we read so maybe you should read something uplifting. Read ‘The Diary of Ann Frank’ to see what kind of people most Christians are. Many are selfless, non-judgemental and ready to help whoever needs it.
ksgrm-Give it up.In case you haven’t noticed, this blog is full of Christian haters. I’m not a Christian or a Christian hater, but it’s amazing how much hate is here for them.
Grm, Terry Fox spends his days not only preaching hate, but goes to the Capitol and makes threats to people who don’t vote his way.
He advocates running people out of town and out of business, he beats up his own congregation if they dont’ fall in lockstep.
You are right grm, there are MANY and I’d even say the MAJORITY of Christians who just want to live their lives as they see fit without interfering with others.
What I’d really like to see is more Christians reeling in their own nuts instead of the non-christians having to do it.
I disagree strongly with KSSAM’s view on gay marriage/civil union. Marriage is a legal issue, not a religious one. Religion has a part, but not for all, therefore it isn’t religious.
A pastor, priest, or any clergyman (even me, if I pay the money for a certificate of ordainment) can marry a couple. Yet if I decide to marry, I MUST purchase a marriage license from the county or state in which I’ll be married. Can’t be legal without that, now can it?
Not everyone is married by a religious official. Some prefer to have the ceremony performed by a Judge.
It’s a legal issue. Period.
Then it shouldn’t be banned for same sex marriage then RD. It’s either a religious issue or a state issue. Make them seperate.
RD..I think you misunderstood what I said. I have discussed this numerous times with Farmgrrl.
marriage is a churchy word, and the church has the right to decide who it marries and who it doesn’t.
civil unions are not a church issue and are not governed by church doctrine.
therefore, the church marriage and civil unions are two totally separate events for two totally separate entities.
no.. I don’t believe the church should condone gay marriage, but they also should remember that it only applies to the body of believers, not the non-believers.
kansassam,
Not all churches ban gay marriage, so it’s not all black and white.
p_mom, you’re right. It shouldn’t be banned for gay marriage. What we’ve done with a legal institution is to allow the churches and people of some faiths to determine the law.
In this country, the union of marriage is for financial (tax) reasons only. It’s really the most basic reason why it’s a two-person thing. Can you imagine the tax headaches with polygamy? If a man could deduct for multiple wives, they’d all be running out to get them! (There’s a grin in there somewhere.)
I’m not up on old English law. I’ll have to do some research on it before I misspeak, but it makes sense to have marriage (which is, in effect, a civil union) the legality, and a church service that can be performed by a clergyman as an addition for those who prefer it.
Then again, isn’t that what we really have now?
I agree with ksgrm. We are to decipher for ourselves if what we hear is true. That is the only way we will know if we are just listening to one person get up and spew his own beliefs (Phelps) or if it is Biblical. I know many people don’t like Terry here. But, like him or hate him, he doesn’t tell you that he hopes God is going to kill you or that God is happy because your loved one died while giving their life for our country. I know that many think that Terry and Phelps should be in the same catagory because they don’t accept gay marriage. Phelps doesn’t agree with Terry on Terry’s viewpoints. Phelps has come down to Wichita to protest outside of Terry’s church (former church) with his followers yelling at members of the church and holding up signs that can’t even go on the T.V. What I object to most is acctually two things. That they teach their kids to hate anyone who is different and that they stand on the same American flag that someone died to protect. Then they have the nerve to go and protest at someone’s funeral who was brave enough to pay the ultimate price and that was to give their lives for the rest of us so we could live free.As far as gay marriage, I like others, have gay friends. I don’t agree with the marriage though. I understand why many feel that it should be a church issue and not a state issue. However, it is my understanding (I could be wrong) that if it were to pass as a law, then a church could not refuse to marry a gay couple on the reason that they are gay because then the church could be sued for discrimination. So, the church is protecting it’s beliefs not trying to push it onto others. They have to abide by the same laws as everyone else, they just don’t pay taxes, but then neither does the Red Cross. Just remember, not everyone who voted against the gay marriage issue went to church. Some of them just didn’t agree with it.
From Wikipedia. Weak, but it’s the best I could do on short notice.
“Marriage was strictly a civil institution until about the mid 5th century AD.[citation needed] Around that time Augustine and others theosophised about marriage and the Christian Church started taking an interest in co-opting it.[citation needed] Christians began to have their marriages conducted by ministers in Christian gatherings. Having always regarded it in practical terms as a relationship between a man and a woman, it was in the 12th century that the Roman Catholic Church, as well as other orthodoxies, formally defined marriage as a sacrament. (In Catholicism the Sacrament of Matrimony is between three people: God, the man and the woman).[citation needed] The Protestant Reformation reformulated marriage as a life-long covenant; Protestant leaders like Martin Luther and Calvin denied that marriage was a sacrament.”
Delete the word marriage from the legal lexicon. Replace it with a less-charged term like union. Then allow unions for both gay and straight and leave church matters to the churches.
Allow ministers to fill out the paperwork for unions as they do now for the civil part of marriage. Allow them the freedom to do it or not do it for couples depending on their conscience. (For example, I doubt that a Priest would do one for a Jewish couple).
Render unto Caeser that which is caeser’s and unto God that which is God’s
RDThat is interesting. I had never heard that before. I wonder who the first couple was.
“then a church could not refuse to marry a gay couple on the reason that they are gay because then the church could be sued for discrimination.”
Not likely. The law gives tham (quite appropriately) a great deal of leeway. You don’t see any female Priests in the Catholic church for example. They are alowed to “discriminate” since it is central to their religious doctrine. This is as it should be.
Uh, isn’t marriage actually in the bible? Or the idea of marriage?
The bible makes a distinction between fornication and adultery, so I would think that it has history long before Christ.
I think religion should stick to their rules, and government should stick to theirs.
I think you are right p-m. That is the reason for my proposal.
I think what did happen is that marriage was secularized for various civil reasons.
If anyone has time, you should try and read “Addicted to Hate.” It was written as a series of articles to the Topeka Capitol-Journal, and based off interviews the two Phelps sons who left the cult. It was never published becuase of fear of retribution, but the author put it online and if you Google search it, you can find it.
It really gives interesting insight into the nutjobs at this “church”. It talks about Fred Phelps’ addiction to painkillers, public abuse of his 10 month old son, forcing his children to run 10 mile marathons without feeding them, how he forced his children to sell stale candy and steal from cash registers, and then would sue anyone who looked at him wrong. It is really very interesting to see exactly how easy it was for these poor kids were brainwashed.
But then again, when someone is inbred they don’t have enough brain cells to think for themselves anyway…
Ben,
I agree. It’s the only sane, fair, and reasonable way to do it for a secular nation. And the U.S. IS a secular nation.
P_Mom,
I can’t swear to this, but the word used in the original language of the Bible meant “companion.”
suzanne,
I’ve read it. It’s long, but well worth the time to read. It’s also sickening. Makes one wonder what caused Fred to be that way. I hear that if he dies before his sister does, she’ll tell.
I think this thread exemplifies all that is wrong with internet communication.
That is all.
What is more disgusting, defenders of Phelps or defends of men sticking their dicks up another man’s a-hole. Well at least the fudge packers don’t desecrate US soldier’s funerals.
Both groups could learn one simple lesson, keep your fricking twisted opinions to yourselves. The rest of us don’t care. AIDS and troop bashing what a choice.
For all you anti-gay people out there, the question still remains. What about gays harms you? Do they threaten your manhood (if you’re male)?
And if we really get down and dirty about this, I’d lay odds that most men have practiced anal sex with a woman, at least once. Same act, different sex. So what?
Take a poll among men, and you’ll find that most are “turned on” by watching or thinking about two women together. Yet the idea of homosexuality of MEN sets some off into tirades.
Face it. There will always be homosexuals, whether by choice (not hardly) or by nature. By being “out,” there’s a better chance that they won’t be mistaking one of you for something you’re not. Isn’t THAT refreshing?
The world and even this country are big enough for all kinds. Nobody is asking you to participate in something you find abhorrant. Let others live the lives they choose, just as you live your life as you choose.
They say it right there, the Bible is infallible, is the authority and it’s the same Bible which says gays should be executed. Are they lying or is the Bible lying?
Posted by: Doug | December 01, 2006 at 11:25 AM
Care to give that scripture reference for that?
All of the references to homosexuality in the bible place it along with all other sin. Nothing more (meaning worse) nothing less.
All I know is that this kind of hatred that the Phelps crew practices isn’t going to bring anyone to Christ. So it’s useless.
Funny, but I don’t think Jesus had hate in mind at any time.
Mr. Kia, pointing out verses in the Bible is considered anti-Christian on this forum. It’s either because the Christians don’t want to be exposed to their own religion or they hate the fact an Atheist is more well versed in their scripture than they are.
The commonly referenced verse in Lev. 20:13. It lists a bunch of other sexual practices hinting at the issue of the Hebrews being quite a perverse lot.
No more perverse than probably every society since.I just wanted to point out that the bible never singles out homosexuals or homosexuality as a sin any worse than others, which you did for me. The punishment for all sin is death (death = eternal seperation from God.). Faith in Christ is what fills in the gap for all who will accept it. But you know the belief system.
If “the wages of sin is death”, then they should really consider forming a union.
Doug,
Where do you pull that crap from?
I am more than willing to discuss scripture anytime. I know there are other Christians here who would do the same as well.
I highly doubt you are more well versed in the scripture than the Christians I know here.
Nathan, if you’ve noticed the remarks on the forum I’ve been labeled anti-Christian for merely pointing out what the scripture says and for what Christians believe. As for being less versed than the other Christians it makes me wonder why they consistently ask me for Bible passages which they are unaware of, yet they contend to believe in.
Mr. Kia, my ex-girlfriend recently went out with a Christian. We had a good laugh about how perverse he was. She’s going to stick with dating non-Christians in the future. It’s like wherever you go there’s another Ted Haggard waiting to be revealed. Anyway, it isn’t I who is treating homosexuality as the gravest of “sins” it is your fellow Christians. There isn’t a national movement to ban lobster eating or the wearing of clothing made of multiple fabrics. Nope, it’s more centered around banning gay marriage. It’s odd since even in the New Testament marriage is despised but preferred in order to contain the “sin” of sex. If homosexual sex was so bad then Christians would advocate gay marriage. Of course that would mean Christians wouldn’t be picking and choosing what divine scripture they want to follow.
Christians don’t adhere to the ritualistic laws of Moses because of the revelation given to Peter, that all foods are clean and therefore, there is no distinction between “clean” and “unclean” foods. This is pretty basic stuff. I’m surprised none of you informed Doug about that little fact.
So, does this mean it’s now okay to boil a kid in it’s mother’s milk?
The Bible says god’s laws are eternal and Jesus said they shall not be changed. Obedience to god’s laws are a matter of faith. Just because you don’t have any and don’t want to follow them doesn’t mean I’m wrong for taking the bible at it’s word.
Scripture is not the totality of spiritual enlightenment. Through the ages, Tradition of the Church has been handed down, i.e. the Magisterium of the one Church. It is the Protestants who broke from the tradition and formulated their own theological principles (Luther, Calvin, etc.) one such principle being that all spiritual guidance is to come from the Bible alone and not the teaching of the Church. Now, I am not saying that the Bible is not inerrant, but it is certainly not the only means by which we govern our lives. Where will you find abortion or contraception in the Bible? No where. How does one debate modern day issues with a compilation of thousand year old documents? You can’t. Protestants and Evangelical Christians are unaware of their theological developments. No where is this issue more discernible than their acceptance of abortion at first, and later with the adoption of Catholic social teachings changed their position over time.
WSClark,
It depends if you are a Hassidic Jew or not. I am not a Hassidic Jew, I do not follow the Jewish theological principles (which denies the entire Christian Tradition).
Duh.
Doug,Apparently you seem to think that the revelation of Peter which took place after the First Covenant chronologically is NOT a part of Scripture. What you seem to forget is that theology changes with time.
Furthermore, it explicitly states somewhere in the New Testament that all who sin deserve death. It is not a question of which sins are greater than others, but the fact that one is with sin that is the catalyst for eternal punishment. So the liar, the murderer, the thief, the heterosexual adulterer will all find themselves in hell with the practicing homosexual. God is just and impartial, a perfect being can not be unjust or play favorites. These Phelps imbeciles make a big show about homosexuals going to hell. What they should be looking into is their own sinfulness. Just because you can quote Biblical passages does not guarantee your entrance to heaven.
“Duh.”
Nice try, Will. Stupid, but, still a nice try.
So, since the Ten Commandments are part of Mosaic Law, are we now alos excused from the Ten Commandments?
Also, secular legislation is not out of the Church’s sphere of influence. After all, Christians should be concerned with where they will spend eternity rather than preoccupy themselves with telling other sinners how to live their lives.
WSClark,It depends on who “we” are. If one is a Jew, one does not believe in an afterlife. The purpose of the Commandments along with the hundreds of other laws prescribed by the tribe of Levi was for the purpose of moral rectitude. You also fail to understand that in ancient Hebrew society, there is no dichotomy between SECULAR and RELIGIOUS laws. So the Ten Commandments along with all the rest was the law of the land in ancient Israel. People like you who criticize 20th century Christians who do not adhere to each and every law prescribed from the Levites are unaware of Christianity’s oldest schism: The split between Jesus’ Crew and Judaism. Why many Evangelicals do not understand this is surprising.
The church I attend just finished a series on the 10 commandments. Here is a very brief recap:
The first 5 pertain to our own relationship with God. The next 4 pertain to our relation to our fellow man. The 10th is a matter of your heart.
Jesus summed this up simply when asked which command was greatest.”Love God with all your heart and all your mind and Love your neighbor as yourself.”If you can do this you keep His commandments. But no one can do this 100% of the time.
Finally, those who say that Jesus was some strict legal eagle. It is important to remember that he healed on the Sabbath, allowed his disciples to pick grain on the Sabbath, and was criticized for not fasting by the disciples of John the Baptist. What Jesus meant about all the laws being fulfilled is certainly the “spirit of the law, not the letter.”
So, if Jews do not believe in an afterlife, what are Olam Ha-Ba and Gehinnom?
The answer is that they are the Jewish words for Heaven and Hell.
“The dust will return to the ground as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.” (Ecclesiastes 12:17)
WSClark,Are we living the 10Commandments as we speak? In that case we would be breaking the first commandment since we allow other religions in our land. If we REALLY were going to follow the Decalogue as a society, we would have to deport or kill anyone who is does not worship JHWH. Furthermore, Christians are not living up to the Decalogue in the eyes of Hassidic Jews because Christians claim Jesus to be God.
WSClark,You are referring to Sheol. Or “place of the dead.” In Jewish theology, there is no reward or punishment in the afterlife. Heaven is only a place where GOD resides along with the company of his angels. Humans don’t go there when they die. Sheol is the same word in Aramaic used to designate burial grounds, cemetaries. The logic is the same. Sheol is just a place where the dead rest.
“And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.” 2 Kings 2:1
Yes, notice how Elijah was taken up to heaven, he did not DIE and his spirit go up there.
Go back to Ecc 12:17….
But in the meantime, if Jesus freed Christians from Mosaic Law by fulfilling the Law and only the Ten Commandments are the remaining Laws to be followed, logically, hasn’t Jesus also lifted the prohibition on homosexuality? (Lev 18:22)
Go back to Ecc 12:17
WSClark,Go back to Genesis, to the creation of man. You will see that God formed Adam from dust and “breathed life into him.” Of course Ecclesiastes 12:17 says the spirit will return to God, because the spirit is nothing but the “breath of God.” It does not say that the spirit will be punished for sins it committed while animating the body.
WSClark,
No. Look at the writings of Paul. He condemns homosexuality. Since it’s part of Scripture, then it’s part of the Tradition and hence part of the religion. However, with the advent of Vatican II, the official teaching states that those with a homosexual disposition are not at fault, but those who practice homosexual acts are guilty.
It is important to remember that there are only 3 states of sexual purity:
1)Celibacy2)Marriage
Sexual acts that take place outside of marriage (be it heterosexual or homosexual) are forbidden and thus considered sinful.
1)adultery2)fornication3)beastiality4)masturbation
Even thinking about sexual acts are sinful.
e.g.
damn typos.
Oh yeah, let’s not forget child molestation.
just sowe cover all bases here.
phew!
Anything else ya need to know?
“homosexual disposition are not at fault, but those who practice homosexual acts are guilty.”
Damn nice of them: you can think about the key lime pie, you just can’t eat it.
I have read the so-called Apostle Saul/Paul – he also said that women should remain silent in church. I would have to say that this Turkish Jew is somewhat intolerant of most everybody – gays, women, etc.
I would have to say that St. Paul is full of crap. If I believe that women should shut up in church, then I might be able to believe other admonishments, but since that I believe that women and men are equal, then I also have to reject his admonishments against homosexuals.
BTW – I am hetro, but I support the rights of gays, just as I support the rights of women even though I am a man.
What people tend to forget is their is no such things as sins that are worse than others when it comes to God. You see, the depraved priest who molests children (you know who you are) is just as guilty of sin as the little 5 year old for telling a “white lie.” Folks also forget that the popular football player who screws his cheerleader girlfriend can just as likely find himself in hell as the next practicing homosexual who has 50 sex partners. God does not play favorites, He can’t. He would be unjust and imperfect if he did. That’s Perfect Justice.No, I’m not making this stuff up, this is a part of the Christian religion and has been since the very beginning of it’s inception. No one gets pardoned because they were a “good person.” Hell, we all think we are good people. It’s our pride that makes us think so.
HAHA! Doug you are my fuckin hero! Reason is so clear in the face of ignorace.
Someone up there said that homosexuality is never hinted at being worse than any other sin in the Bible. That is not true. One of the stories (about Lot I think) says that he was staying at a friends house and men came up to the house and hollared for Lot. They told Lot’s host that they wanted his guest so they could “know” him. [Yes in the Biblical sense.] The host said Nay, nay. And he offered up his virgin daughters instead.This means the Bible condones sex outside of marriage and rape before homosexuality.
You Christians don’t have a clue what you are talking about. You should read this recent morality piece I did on my blog:
http://anaveragegotcher.blogspot.com/2006/12/moralty-argument-against-existence-of.html
Long live Doug!
WSClark,Have I made you mad? Mad enough to throw me to the lions? I suspect it was this most unpopular message of repentance that pissed off the pagan Romans. It is what it is, and I like those that died due to the unpopularity of their message can not change or take out any of it. It is my honest opinion that the Old Testament God was a jerk. (Forgive me Father…) But it all leads up to the Redemption of sins through Jesus Christ. That’s what the Bible is theologically speaking, all about. It’s all about Salvation History of the Jewish people. (Those who were in the Jesus Crew anyway.) and the goyim, the rest of us.
So of these, which one goes to Heaven:
GWB who impregnated Robin Lowman and had her have an abortion in 1970.
Charles Manson, if he were to repent his sins and accept Christ.
The Dali Lama – Buddhist spiritual leader.
Rabbi Marc Gellman, leading Jewish theologian, author and leading expert on Jewish life.
A read of Christian teaching would indicate that Charles Manson would be the one to reach Heaven.
“Have I made you mad?”
No, I am neither a practicing Jew or a Christian, nor am I homosexual. I have studied Christianity rather extensively, having been raised in a hardcore Lutheran home. I took leave of Christianity twenty years ago, in part due to the intolerance of some Christian groups.
I believe in God, but I do not believe in the Divinity of Jesus.
And I don’t believe in religion.
Yes, yes, Soddom and Gomorrah and the plight of Lot (the only good man in town!) I have heard many different takes on this from many prominent theologians. Some argue that it was because they wanted to commit homosexual acts that God destroyed them. Some say that it was their poor manners that led God to destroy them. Whatever the reason was, it surely wasn’t spelled out for us in Genesis. The writer does not say particularly what God destroyed them for. (Hence all the controversy.) What it does say is that the people living in Sodom were so intrinsically evil that God Himself saw to it to put an end to them. It says that he’s been putting up with their crap for a long, long time and the big G had enough one morning and wiped the cities of the Plain out in one fell swoop. If you read the text, you’ll see that in addition to trying to RAPE Lot’s guest (the angel of the Lord) they had piled on a multitude of other sins (that the writer does not mention.) In my opinion, when a mob in a town forms outside your door demanding that they F your houseguest in the A. Well, I think it’s safe to say that they were more than just “pretty bad.” I say they were rapists on top of whatever else they were, and they got a taste of some Almighty whoop ass.
WSClark,Come on! They asked Jesus the same thing trying to trap him. Is this deja vu all over again?:)
His basic reply was that if your righteousness does not surpass that of the Pharisees, then you won’t be finding yourself there.
Crusader you’re not worth my time. Try reading some REAL books.
WSClark,Ah, for a minute there I thought I was chatting with my old Sunday school teacher!:)
Andrew,Sorry to hear that, what REAL books do you suggest?:)
“Come on! They asked Jesus the same thing trying to trap him. Is this deja vu all over again?”
Good reply, as Jesus did not distinquish between the sin of the adulterer and those that would stone her. That much is true, however, the Christian Right has turned that equation on it’s head.
And that is my problem with Christianity – selective sin and selective morality.
How many Christians commit the sin (pre-marital sex, for example) with the intention of “repenting” the sin at a later point?
Hence the Charles Manson suggestion – would he go to Heaven if he repented and accepted Christ on his deathbed?
Given that, to follow is what I have gained from Jesus and how I (intend) to live my life – not always so successful, but I try:
On the last day, Jesus will say to those on His right hand, “Come, enter the Kingdom. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was sick and you visited me.” Then Jesus will turn to those on His left hand and say, “Depart from me because I was hungry and you did not feed me, I was thirsty and you did not give me to drink, I was sick and you did not visit me.” These will ask Him, “When did we see You hungry, or thirsty or sick and did not come to Your help?” And Jesus will answer them, “Whatever you neglected to do unto one of these least of these, you neglected to do unto Me!”
All these posters who quote the Bible are not getting the point. I am not anit-Christian but I am anti-hate spewing Christians.
If you want to believe your Bible is infallible – then so be it. But the key point here is ‘it is YOUR Bible’. Not everyone sees the Bible in the same context as you Christians.
So just because you quote verses from your Bible, does not make it so. After all, the Bible has been translated how many times? Don’t you think it is possible that some of those translations have been worded wrong?
Andrew, Christian or not, you can gain an enormous amount of knowledge and wisdom by reading the words of Jesus – as noted above.
The rose still blooms in a thicket of thorns.
It’s funny isn’t it? People will argue, kill each other, and die like sheep over literature. How is that for being “critically acclaimed?”
:)
WSClark,Insincere repentance is not true repentance. You can fool everybody in your church community into believing you’re a good person, but you can’t fool the big G. That omniscience thing really sucks for us in my opinion. For many Christians, their religion is something in which they just go through the motions. Yes, even Catholics are not immune to this galvanizing effect. As for the so called “Christian Right” I believe you are ultimately criticizing the Christianreligion based on the shortcomings of its adherents. You want imperfect people to be perfect 24 hours a day 7 days a week. I guess this is what we all want, especially those of us in positions of authority (priests, ministers, etc) my take on it is, we can’t do anything about being imperfect. I’ll be the first to admit that Christianity had more than its share of complete f*ck-ups, but is that something new? Hell, if you read Acts of the Apostles you see Ananias and Saphira. Now, am I upset that we have child-molesters, murderers, and rapists and liars in our camp? Definitely. Am I going to allow the faults of others determine my spiritual growth? Absolutely not. It is in my best interests that I am a Christian. At least as a Christian, I have hope.
Well Sunny, Andrew, Will – the debate of morality and religion has been going on for about five thousands years now, and nothing we say today will solve the issue. We should note, however, that there is no place in morality or religion for hatred.
There is much that is useful and highly beneficial to all of us in the Qua’an, the Bible, the teaching of the Buddha and in the Torah.
Sometimes, you just have to fight through the thorns to get to the rose.
Sunny,There has never been documents more highly scrutinized linguistically than the books contained in the Bible. I am fully confident, that those who translated the original Septuagint with the prophetic books did so with the utmost competence and expertise in Aramaic, as well as those who translated the New Testament from the original Greek.
WSClark,hahaha! You mean morality IN religion. I think that is what you are driving at. But alas, I have the everyday toil of work and study to go back to, so with this I bid youadieu.
Maybe so, Crusdader, but if you were not there in person to watch the translation – then you are only taking someone’s word for the correct translation. Isn’t that correct?
If the Bible was translated so accurately, then how come 10 different people can read the same verse and come out with 10 different versions of what they just read?
This is why religions of the world continue to fight and kill one another to retain their power? All for their versions of God’s Word?
No wonder the world is such a messed up place.
The Bible certainly wasn’t translated accurately. Given that the Bible was written by hand by copyists they often added or deleted passages. Looking at some old copies with the oldest Greek copy in existence scholars found about 1500 different versions of New Testament scripture. *from the book Misquoting Jesus
There have been some that claim all sins are equal. That isn’t true either. The Bible says that blaspheming Casper, or the holy spirit is not forgivable. So you can murder and rape more than the holy men in the OT and still get to heaven. However, if you stub your toe and say the wrong thing, you will burn in the volcano known as hell for eternity. Where exactly is that volcano all the fictional souls are thrown into anyway? No matter, I’ll never get an answer.
You know, you’ve gotta wonder what horrors those kids endured then and what horrors are still going on in that compound. Even wonder if there isn’t a dead kid or two, considering how severe the beatings were. Wonder what happened to Fred himself to turn him into such a hateful monster.
I believe Mrs Phelps is part of the problem, but she’s a victim too. It is sad that any children are allowed to be around him. And it is sad that his children still bring their children into his midst.
I think from here on out, we should be very vocal about Phelps’ child abusing past- maybe we should picket against him when he comes to picket, CHILD BEATERS AND THEIR PROTECTORS SHOULD BE IMPRISONED.
Has anyone ever asked Phelps how his family became God’s only chosen ones? Out of the whole earth, how do THEY feel THEY are the only ones to receive his glory?
I do not know how any of them can claim to be so close to God, when their lives are so destructive and dysfunctional. Talk about your mental illness.