Gary Kleypas, the first of the 11 men to be sent to Kansas’ death row under the state’s 12-year-old revived death penalty, recently was cleared by the Kansas Supreme Court for another sentencing hearing, meaning execution remains a possibility. Meanwhile, capital punishment continues to slide out of favor with some judges and, to a much lesser extent, the American public; the 53 executions in the nation this year were the fewest in a decade. A federal judge ruled Friday that California’s method of lethal injection risks being cruel and unusual punishment. Last month, a federal judge declared Missouri’s means of lethal injection to be unconstitutional. And Florida Gov. Jeb Bush suspended all executions Friday after it took 34 minutes and two doses to execute a prisoner earlier in the week.
Could Sen Sam Brownback, R-Kan., who has lost his enthusiasm for capital punishment except in the worst cases, be right in step with the American people on this issue?
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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74 Comments
There is no good reason for the death penalty. It’s wrong when we have no true way to know guilt or innocence, and it’s more expensive than housing them for life.
I realize there is the emotions of the ones who are victims’ families, but seriously, I think a long slow death in a cage is far worse than the easy way out.
I would have to agree with Political_mom.
I still remember reading an article written by a reporter after she had seen her first execution. She described it as being an tense mood, but the condemned man simply seem to go to sleep. Never to wake again, there was no outcry, no pain except when the put the needles in. He just went to sleep and it was over after about an hour. These words stuck in my head : I am sure his death was far more humane then the death he had inflicted on his victim. It seem almost merciful and kind that he was not long having to spend his life locked up. Which as to a punishment, this seem almost pointless. Perhaps it is not as much punishment as a statement. That we as a society feel there are just some crimes that should not be tolerated, that the person should pay the Altamont price for having committed such crimes. There was no sense of revenge, no real sense that the condemned suffered for his crime. Just that such a person had lost his place in society.
I understand what you are say Pmom, I seen cases where I truly believe the defendant to be not guilty.Firmly I believe Ivory Haslip to have been not guilty and he died in prison for a crime he did not commit.If we had the death penalty back then he would have been a prime candidate and would have been wrongfully put to death. But as it was a man did died for his crime, lost his freedom for a crime he did not commit. Is that any less a injustice?
Gary Kleypas, 49, pushed his way inside the home of Pittsburg State University student Carrie Williams on March 30, 1996, then raped her, tied her to a chair and stabbed her to death. A Wyandotte County jury sentenced him to death on Aug. 5, 1997, but the sentence was later overturned. He awaits re-sentencing.
I know the Williams family.Without giving more details, let me just say that we need to go ahead and get this guy dead.This was his second murder, and he was on parole when he murdered again.Kill him.
I have to agree. Two close friends of my family were murdered, leaving their children orphaned and their families and friends heartbroken. The murderer received two life sentences, but has been out of prison twice, only to commit more crimes and return to jail. Now we have to go before the parole board EVERY year in order to try and keep him in jail. He never gave his victims a chance, he could have just taken the money and spared their lives, but he didn’t want to leave any witnesses to his crime. He’s had a second and a third chance at freedom, but gave it away. If he was put to death, maybe there could be some closure for the families, but we have to live the nightmare over and over again in order to get any kind of justice.When someone willingly and maliciously takes an innocent life, they should have to give up their own, it’s only fair.
They can’t possibly do Kleypas, the Carrs and the rest of them soon enough, and I don’t give a rat’s ass how they do it. Just “get ‘er done!” They’re a waste of time, money and oxygen.
I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand I would happily provide the rope and tree for the Kleypas and Carr sorts. However, having seen too many cases of wrongful conviction I am made nervous about it. If we could just be certain …
Rhonda,No, Brownback is not “right in step with the American people on this issue?”
As you yourself noted, the American people are not the ones uncomfortable about the death penalty. It is the media, judges and some politicians. A large majority of American people are perfectly comfortable putting scum like Kleypas and the Carrs to death.
As for innocent men being put to death, despite years of attempts by college students, law students, activists and the media, not one case of an innocent person being executed has ever been found. There have been people let go due to technicalities, even some freed due to DNA results, but no innocent man has been put to death.
Our system works too slowly in my opinion. Does anyone doubt that Kleypas is guilty? What about the Carrs? Why are they still alive?
The death penalty isn’t much of a deterrent if it takes years to implement. Let’s get on with it already.
Kansas now has life without parole. Families no longer will have to worry about a person being released or go through the process of testifying at a parole hearing.
Eye for Eye: ” even some freed due to DNA results, but no innocent man has been put to death.” We don’t know that. Once execution has taken place the issue is obviously rendered moot. The fact that a number of people on death row have been found with DNA to have been innocent is what makes me nervous. The cases where death has already been carried out have not been given the same level of scrutiny as those still on the “row”
I too have mixed feelings on the death sentence. Maybe we should take a closer look at our legal system.
DA’s prosecute for their careers in most cases. Looking for a judgeship or the like. All they really want is a conviction.
On the other hand, the defense lawyers. IMHO some of the lowest forms of life.
The problem being that wrong people are convicted, wrong people are set free. This, I believe, is the most important issue.
I, like Ben, am nervous given the results of post-conviction DNA testing resulting in the freeing of wrongfully convicted individuals. Like Ben, I wish there was “certainty”; however, so long as we, as humans, are involved, there exists the potential for error. Eye for Eye; I am not as sure as you that no “innocent man” has been executed. However, the delays currently in the system have allowed those wrongfully convicted to be cleared.
I am certain the death penalty works as a deterrent in one situation, that is where the truly guilty person is executed; he or she cannot then be released in the future to “do it again”. Otherwise, I feel there is no deterrent effect, regardless of the delay or lack thereof in carrying out the sentence.
For myself only: if on a murder jury, where the death penalty is a possible sentence, my standard of “reasonable doubt” for conviction of the crime carrying the death penalty would be there must be physical evidence, properly gathered and preserved, placing the accused at the scene (DNA, for sure); in the absence of such, I would not be able to find the person guilty of the charged crime, although a LIO would not be out of the question.
Ben,That’s simply not true. There have been numerous cases of people already put to death where DNA testing was done to “prove their innocence” only to go on and prove their guilt.
Either you believe our system of justice works and is the best one available or you don’t. The fact that people have been freed on death row just gives me more comfort that those not freed are guilty.
If DNA can be used in a case, it obviously should be used. But the real world is not CSI. We have a justice system that routinely errs on the side of guilty people. I’m OK with that, but when we catch someone, convince 12 jurors they’re guilty, survive numerous appeals, survive the scrutiny of activist groups, survive the scrutiny of the Governor, I think it’s fair to put the bad guy to death.
Since the death penalty was reinstated in 1976, there have 123 men and women released from Death Row after evidence has proven them innocent.
One man was within 13 hours of execution before he received a stay. Later he was proven innocent. Another man had an IQ of 51 and was not able to support his own defense.
Several men were proven to be innocent after many years, as many as eighteen, on Death Row.
Also, there is credible evidence that at least two innocent men have been put to death. Investigators are now working to prove that they were innocent.
Given the numbers, it is highly likely that innocent people will die.
Further, life without parole is less expensive for the tax payer than the death penalty.
I am not soft on crime by any means, but the system is broken. I would rather see the Carr brothers and Kleypas spend the rest of their lives in prison than to risk seeing one innocent man executed.
Until the system is fixed, all executions should be stayed.
There are certainly people that deserve to die for their crimes and we all know who they are. I have every sympathy for the victims and their families, don’t get me wrong, but the judicial system needs to be throughly examined before we more forward.
WSC, knowing the details in Kleypas case, there is NO DOUBT he did this.AND he tortured this poor girl.This is one SICK man, no chance of rehab.I say we tie him to a chair and sell tickets to people who want to help kill him.We can get him dead and pay his bill at the same time.Plenty of bloggers here are now used to the phrase “I’ll be you huckleberry”.Line up hucksters.
I’m wary of new posters who seem to already know this forum. What is your ususal nic “eye”?
“Either you believe our system of justice works and is the best one available or you don’t.”
The best one available? It’s the ONLY one available. And no I do not believe it works.
Someone once said our system of justice was designed that a thousand gulity men go free before one innocent is wrongly punished. Until we meet that standard, the death penalty is just a travesty waiting to happen. It should be suspended.
“WSC, knowing the details in Kleypas case, there is NO DOUBT he did this.”
Most likely there IS no doubt that Kleypas is guilty and certainly deserves to die, however, all of the 123 men that were released from Death Row were also convicted by a jury of their peers.
The point is that mistakes can be made, they are made and the system needs some serious work.
BTW – I have no idea what “I’ll be you huckleberry” means.
The frustrating thing for me is that on the one hand I want to string up someone like Kleypas (no painless injection) but at the same time am nagged by doubts in too many cases. That is what makes what should be an easy issue into a difficult one.
Ben, I totally agree!!! I think that the convicted should face an equally torturous death as his/her victims faced. Sad part is, with our legal system, and I guess with ANY legal system, how can you be sure you have the right person?
As a prosecutor, I’ll take issue with a couple of statement made above. Most prosecutors are NOT career prosecutors “looking for a judgeship.” On the contrary, most prosecutors cut their teeth on prosecution and then move on to defense or civil work, where there is real money to be made. And the defense bar are not “low forms of life.” Their role is vital; the State is, and should be, required to prove up its allegations in the crucible of adversary testing. It is a necessary part of the system.
That said:
While there are cases that scream for CP (Carrs, for example), I’m not a fan of the death penalty, for several reasons. 1) There is no evidence that it has any deterrent effect, aside from the obvious specific deterrence. 2) Given the length and number of appeals, it is more expensive than life imprisonment. 3) Because the justice system, as good as it is (and it’s the world’s best, even with its faults) is made up of fallible humans, there is the certainty at some point of executing the innocent. It has happened, I have little doubt. It will happen again, sooner or later, not through malice but simple human error. We are not perfect.
It is not unconstitutional, however, and if we are to have a death penalty, I’d strongly support a time limit on appeals – 24 months – with appeals on CP cases moving to the head of appellate dockets to move them along.
And execution? .45 to the head. Quick, simple, reliable.
[Q] I’ll be your Huckleberry?What exactly does that mean?
[A] What it means is easy enough. To be one’s huckleberry—usually as the phrase I’m your huckleberry—is to be just the right person for a given job, or a willing executor of some commission. Where it comes from needs a bit more explaining.
First a bit of botanical history. When European settlers arrived in the New World, they found several plants that provided small, dark-coloured sweet berries. They reminded them of the English bilberry and similar fruits and they gave them one of the dialect terms they knew for them, hurtleberry, whose origin is unknown (though some say it has something to do with hurt, from the bruised colour of the berries; a related British dialect form is whortleberry). Very early on—at the latest 1670—this was corrupted to huckleberry.
As huckleberries are small, dark and rather insignificant, in the early part of the nineteenth century the word became a synonym for something humble or minor, or a tiny amount. An example from 1832: “He was within a huckleberry of being smothered to death”. Later on it came to mean somebody inconsequential. Mark Twain borrowed some aspects of these ideas to name his famous character, Huckleberry Finn. His idea, as he told an interviewer in 1895, was to establish that he was a boy “of lower extraction or degree” than Tom Sawyer.
Also around the 1830s, we see the same idea of something small being elaborated and bombasted in the way so typical of the period to make the comparison a huckleberry to a persimmon, the persimmon being so much larger that it immediately establishes the image of something tiny against something substantial. There’s also a huckleberry over one’s persimmon, something just a little bit beyond one’s reach or abilities; an example is in David Crockett: His Life and Adventures by John S C Abbott, of 1874: “This was a hard business on me, for I could just barely write my own name. But to do this, and write the warrants too, was at least a huckleberry over my persimmon”.
Quite how I’m your huckleberry came out of all that with the sense of the man for the job isn’t obvious. It seems that the word came to be given as a mark of affection or comradeship to one’s partner or sidekick. There is often an identification of oneself as a willing helper or assistant about it, as here in True to Himself, by Edward Stratemeyer, dated 1900: “ ‘I will pay you for whatever you do for me.’ ‘Then I’m your huckleberry. Who are you and what do you want to know?’ ”. Despite the obvious associations, it doesn’t seem to derive directly from Mark Twain’s books.
Short question, long answer!
The possibility of a wrongfully convicted person being executed is horrific. Once again, I recommend John Grisham’s new and only historic work, The Innocent Man, to everyone. Having said that, Kleypas and the Carr brothers guilt is so beyond the possibility that it couldn’t be measured in light years. Taking a stand as pro- or anti- death penalty is counterproductive to both points of view. Each and every case must rise or fall on its own merits, or the lack thereof. These cases are beyond refute.
I agree, why should someone sit on death row for years and years? One appeal, then carry out the sentence within 30 days, just like how ‘ole Saddam’s going to get it. The only reason it’s so expensive is because the lawyers can milk the system for all it’s worth with the appeal process.
This is a good website for information concerning the death penalty.
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/
Before all of the reich-wingers start a flame campaign, I am not against CP, but I do feel strongly that the system needs to be fixed before any more executions take place.
BTW – I was wrong when I mentioned that two possibly innocent men have been executed.
It was seven.
“I agree, why should someone sit on death row for years and years? One appeal, then carry out the sentence within 30 days”
How about 21 years?
James Richardson Florida
Conviction: 1968, Acquitted:1989Richardson was convicted and sentenced to death for the poisoning of one of his children. The prosecution argued that Richardson committed the crime to obtain insurance money, despite the fact that no such policy existed. The primary witnesses against Richardson were two jail-house snitches whom Richardson was said to have confessed to. Post-conviction investigation found that the neighbor who was caring for Richardson’s children had a prior homicide conviction, and the defense provided affidavits from people to whom he had confessed.
(Richardson v. State, 546 So.2d 1037 (1989).
If the Death Penalty had not been ruled unconsitutional in 1972, this man would have been executed.
One appeal – 30 days?
Twenty-one years on Death Row or in prision for a crime that he did not commit.
WSC, I’m shickled tit-less anytime we can prove someone innocent.
However, I’m with my friends GMC and rm64 on this one.rm:Guilty beyond anyone’s doubt.GMC:One shot-one kill.Nuff said.
“Guilty beyond anyone’s doubt.”
Agreed, Tracy. I couldn’t agree more, however, there is no system in place to guarantee guilt.
The appeal process takes years and lawyers have to fight like hell to get a retrial based on new evidence of innocence. Even innocence is not enough to always get a new trial…
Once a defendant has been found guilty at trial, the presumption of innocence is shed and replaced with a presumption of guilt. The appeals process is not directly concerned with whether the jury made a mistake in its verdict, but rather focuses on the procedures which were followed in the trial leading up to that verdict. Most states have stringent time limits on presenting the court with new evidence of one’s innocence. For example, under Virginia’s “21-day rule,” the defendant must present new evidence of his innocence within 21 days of his conviction in order for it to be considered by the courts on appeal. Likewise, federal courts reviewing a state capital case review only constitutional violations and not new factual evidence pointing to innocence…..
Death Penalty Information Center
Perhaps we need to rethink the judicial process in some manner that would allow a more unbiased review. The numbers just add up too quickly to prevent an innocent person from being executed.
I don’t have all the answers but I sure have a hell of a lot of questions.
As for the guy it took 34 minutes to put down…I don’t really give a damn if it took 34 days, as long as the “clinical terminators” got paid for their overtime.
I love the BTW — please spend sometime doing some real research about the 7 “innocents” who have been executed (one of whom had DNA prove he was guilty but he is still listed) and the 120+ who have been indicated as exonerated — read the disclaimer first — then comment intelligently ….—–
“I love the BTW — please spend sometime doing some real research about the 7 “innocents” who have been executed (one of whom had DNA prove he was guilty but he is still listed) and the 120+ who have been indicated as exonerated — read the disclaimer first — then comment intelligently …”
First – Which one had DNA “prove” him guilty?
Second – The Disclaimer…
For Inclusion on DPIC’s Innocence List:Defendants must have been convicted, sentenced to death and subsequently either – their conviction was overturned ANDthey were acquited at re-trial orall charges were droppedthey were given an absolute pardon by the governor based on new evidence of innocence.
What part of that “disclaimer” do you have a problem with….
You want intelligent commentary? Do you really think that no innocent person has been put to death since 1976? Do you really think that no innocent person has been convicted and then later released?
Yes, I have a lot of questions – like are you so blood thirsty that you are willing to see innocent people die just to preserve the Death Penalty.
As long as we are using BTW’s –the was a man named Smith (no kidding) in TX who was executed a number of years ago who went to his death proclaiming that he was innocent — only problem is that he was caught at the scene of the murder and the whole thing was on video tape..
There are still folks who believed his statement. oh well !!!
So Bill, let’s hear your intelligent commentary – not some folklore about a false claim of innocence.
Cooper –
Do some research and as for blood thirsty –try informing a few next of kins that their family members are dead and see how that feels — — then comment.
I have no doubt whatsoever that there are scumbags in this world who deserve to be taken out into the street and shot like the mad dogs they are. Charlie Manson, Ted Bundy, the guy who dreamed up “Cop Rock”… Those people should be held responsible!
But I have deep and sincere doubts about the judicial system’s way of meting out criminal penalties. The same kinds of people who, for example, returned the multi-million dollar hot coffee verdict against McDonald’s (justified, in my opinion, once you know the facts of the case) were on the juries a few years back in Illinois who condemned the 8 men who were later proven by DNA evidence to be innocent of the crimes that put them on Death Row. The judicial system is inherently flawed because it depends on inherently-flawed human beings. And there’s no way to rectify an unjust execution. That’s the rub.
Whether an unjust conviction is due to bad lawyers, bad juries, bad evidence, over-zealous prosecutors, incompetent judges, bad luck… it seems to me that a system that aspires to justice should have in its intrinsic structure the capability to right wrongs. And there’s no way to un-do an execution.
And it’s altogether too easy to put people on death row and kill them.
If there is to be a death penalty — and I see no constitutional provision in the United States to prevent it — I think the death warrant should be signed by the governor (or President) in the presence of the condemned, and only after a face-to-face meeting. I think, instead of simply signing a piece of paper, the Chief Executive of the state or nation should be required to pull the switch him/herself. And if — as it could verywell have happened in Illinois where fully half the prisoners on Death Row were conclusively proven innocent — a person is put to death unjustly, the governor and the trial judge and the jury members responsible should be summarily executed for murder.
As a practical matter, though, I suspect most Death Penalty politicians lack the cajones to sign a death warrant if their own lives were on the line.
It’s Clark – BTW – and I was referring to the 123 individuals that were proven innocent after conviction.
So, from your comment, I can assume that you would have been okay with having those innocent people executed?
I have never had to tell a family their loved ones died from a violent crime. I’m sure that is horrible. And I’m fortunate to have never had to be told any of my loved ones died that way.
But I have had loved ones die, and they’re no less dead than one murdered.
I don’t get how one can feel better by the death of another. I guess it’s all in perspective. Personally I’d feel better knowing they lived out their last days gasping for air or writhing in pain. Face it, the only thing that is positive about the death penalty is that it may or may not make the families of the victims feel better because of the fear factor. But we’ve all gotta die someday folks.
FYI, the death sentence of “hung by the neck“, was amended to add the words “until dead” when a condemned man survived being hung three times. After the third time a judge ordered the man released as he had been hung by the neck. So the sentence had been carried out and as such his sentence had been served. So afterwards, each death sentence became “hung by the neck until dead”.
Hi PMom: I, for one, will feel a hell of a lot better when they do Kleypas and the Carrs — as far as the gasping for air and writhing in pain? That works for me, unless you can think of something worse, and then I’ll endorse that. I was thinking the Japanese “Death of a Thousand Cuts’ myself, but if gasping and writhing is the best we can do, that’s fine.
thanks tracy, I got the saying from I believe it was the movie “Tombstone” when ever someone was looking for a gunfight. Dr. Holliday (Val Klemer) would say “I’ll be your Huckleberry”. I thought it was cool.
So you support natural death then rm?
Val Kilmer…mmmmm yummy.
Loved that movie by the way.
Sorry, darlin’, I don’t really understand the question. Please rephrase, and I’ll try to answer it.
I too have mixed feelings about CP. I have a friend whose wife was murdered in a horrific way and her killer has never been caught. If they ever catch the person who did it he/she would deserve to die. However I would want him to get the same kind of defense that OJ got before I could feel it was fair. BTK is another example of someone not fit to breathe but there are too many people who don’t get fair representation for me to ever feel comfortable about the death penalty. And no I don’t think we have a good system. My limited experience with the legal system has been pretty negative. I don’t trust any part of the system. It is politically driven and often biased.
With the different technologies available today there isn’t much reasonable doubt in what are capital murder cases.I will give you some bias in petty crimes, theft and what not. But I think violent crime is very much right on in catching the right person.
I also believe sex crimes should be punishable by death, period. I would hope this would put drop into those.
You can get away with anything if you have enough money and a slick lawyer. That’s the lesson of OJ and his ilk.The whole system needs to be totally cleaned up and revamped so that it’s more fair and efficient. Criminals should be treated the same, whether they have money or not, and victims should have more rights and justice.
I think the idea of having professional juries with a firm understanding of the law and due process is good. Too many mistakes are made by juries made up of everyday people who’ve never been in a courtroom until they serve on a jury, especially when most of them don’t want to be there.
Too many lawyers, Mary.
Kill em all.
I see that the reich-wing has come out for the night.
Our prisons are overcrowded. Repeat offenders are common to hardcore criminals. The practical way of going about this is by either killing them or sending them to Siberia. Either way is fine by me actually.
Bottom line in 2006, the death penalty is legal. People are sentenced to death.The sentences should be carried out, and within some reasonable amount of time, not countless appeals.Or as CX suggested, thoughI’ve always preferred an island somewhere (e.g. Australia).
Mary
“I think the idea of having professional juries with a firm understanding of the law and due process is good.”
Just who would these “professional jurors” be? And should juries decide procedural issues, such as search issues, now decided by judges?
I think you misunderstand the role of juries. Judges decide matters of LAW; jurors decide the facts and apply those facts to the law.
Have you ever served, Mary? I have, twice (previous career). I have argued dozens of cases to juries, and I have yet to meet a juror who wasn’t glad they had served and came away with a greater appreciation for the system. IMHO, all in all, most of the time juries do a magnificent job.
And Mary, the greatest myth in the system is that “you can get away with anything if you have. . . a slick lawyer.” OJ was an abberation; most of the time, lawyers don’t make much difference, though we like to think we do. Cases are usually decided on the facts – if my facts are good, I win, if they’re not, I lose. Lawyers can do little to change those facts.
ALL muderers, pimps, child molestors, child pornographers and rapists should be put to death. They should be executed within six months of conviction and ONE appeal!
Viva La Raza Blanco!!
It’s incredible that convicted murderers can languish on death row for years and years on appeal, yet unborn babies get sent to Tiller the Baby Killer’s mill every day to be murdered with no such rights accorded to criminals.
The problem with our liberal criminal justice system is that the criminal has more rights than the victims and their families. It’s time to roll back the left-wing policies that was not passed by Congress or state legislatures, but by old men in black robes who have long since passed away. May you rot in hell, Earl Warren!
There is a reason lawyers and judges are opposed to the death penalty while the rest of society’s opinion lags behind. It is that they see how the system does not work. There are huge inequities in our criminal justice system. They play out at every level. But they are most poignant where the state is taking a life.
It necessarily sounds like elitism because it is: Most of those who support the death penalty operate based on huge assumptions primarily premised on ignorance.
A hundred years from now, Americans will find it bizarre that we allowed the state to take life is such a slipshod and discriminatory manner.
You know, for the people that spend 30+ years on death row waiting to be executed, perhaps we should strike a deal with the grim reaper to make sure he doesn’t take them before we can prove “beyond anyone’s doubt” that a terrible crime was committed. It wouldn’t be fair to them.
It makes me think…who are we being fair to? Was murderer ABC being fair to his victim(s) when he ended thier life? did he/she care how long it took? did he/she care if they killed the victim(s) in a humane and reasonable way?
No.
Once a violent crime is committed on the scale of murder, the murderer should be put to death. If he/she infact is innocent after the execution, then i am fully sure that God, Allah, Budda, or any supreme being they follow will pardon thier soul.
We are human, and it’s the best we can do.
Mary, your comment on professional juries brought to mind a discussion had in some first year law school class on the evolution of the jury system. Initially, English juries were made up of those in the area with great knowledge of the factual basis of the case, not as now in the US where we will seek those with no knowledge. I will freely admit this is not an example of a professional jury, but looking at it from my early 21st Century seat, there are cases in certain complex legal areas (e.g., antitrust) where it seems to me that empaneling a jury with great expertise in the subject matter makes more sense than 12 members of the public, who may have heard of the Sherman Act in U.S. History in high school.
With that said, I’ve served on one jury (as posted before); have not tried any cases to a jury (as GMC, for example); but my conversations with those who have served on a jury, together with personal experience, convince me that by and large, those so serving do their very best to determine the facts and apply the law as given them in the instructions read by the judge.
Justin, I wonder if you would be so quick to advocate death if you were falsely convicted of murder.
Would you be okay with letting God sort it out if you were to be executed?
Or would you be screaming for a lawyer?
If somehow I would fail to be caught in any of the safefalls of our justice system, and am unable to prove or even provide a reasonable doubt to a jury as to my innocence, Then I would accept my fate.
If I would be in that fraction of a percent that has a chance to actually be innocent, then for the greater good I would go home to my God.
I wrote an essay a long time ago…it’s lost in a box of floppy disks somewhere… that advocated that every cell on every Death Row contain a cyanide capsule.
Maybe I’m too much of a fatalist. I figure we’re all gonna die someday; there seems to be a lot worse punishments than merely expediting the inevitable.
I never quite understood the “Law & Order” trope that makes getting a life sentence is somehow preferable to the needle. If you believe in eternal afterlife judgement and punishment, a few years doing Life Without Parole isn’t really buying you all that much time, relatively speaking.
And the whole, “The State thinks killing is so horrible we’re gonna kill you” mindset seems counter-intuitive.
I can’t imagine myself ever murdering someone, but now that I’ve thought about it, I’d rather get it over with and take my chances on reincarnation or something instead of rotting away in jail.
I never quite understood the reaction to the Nazi war criminals who “escaped the hangman’s noose” by biting down on a cyanide capsule before they were executed. It implies that their executioners were after something more than justice; the executioners *wanted* to kill the prisoner.
Charlie Manson certainly deserves to be taken out into the street and shot like the mad dog he is. But I don’t feel a whit less safe that he’s locked up in a cell until he dies. Dennis Rader might get forty years of three hots and a cot, for all I care, but I feel the world’s about the same with him alive and in the pokey in El Dorado as it would be if the State strung him up from a lamp post on Douglas.
But if Dennis or Charlie or the Carrs had a cyanide capsule in their cells, and one day decided to get it over with, just how would justice not be served? On earth and/or in heaven or hell?
The only possible answer has been reflected in some of the posts above. People seem to advocate Capital Punishment simply out of vengence. Their rage makes them want to kill in retaliation. And that doesn’t seem to be all that differnt from the motives of those they want to execute.
I’m not American, so as regards the original question asked in the article, I wouldn’t count as one of the people the Governor might be in step with.
I am also opposed to the death penalty in its very principle, so for me matters of guilt or innocence matter less than the simple wrongness of the “punishment.”
However, on the point of innocence, Eye for an Eye: I have on my office wall a story from the Washington post (it’s at least a year old but if you want I will get the exact date for you). In the article a man had confessed to a killing for which another man was executed in Texas 20 years earlier. That’s just one very clear example of an innocent having been put to death.
Furthermore – innocence projects have limited resources. Once someone has been executed, it’s difficult to justify the expense for looking posthumously whether he was guilty or not – and certainly the state has no interest at that point – it’s just bad publicity for them (either: State Spends Money to Prove it was Right, or State Killed an Inncent Man – either way it’s bad press for them).
In a few other parts of the world the problem of the death penalty is much worse, e.g., in China, however the US is still one of the leading executioning countries in the world. Given the high rate of executions there will be a corresponding rate of innocents being killed.
Another person on here wrote of a story written about witnessing an execution by lethal injection. I’m not sure that person is aware of the contention – the contention is that those people executed by injection are not asleep – they are paralysed by one of the drugs and feel their organs shutting down in an excrusciating way, but as they are paralysed they are unable to express the pain. This is not a dreamed-up defence – there is evidence for this from former use of some of the drugs in surgery to veterinary prohibition on the use of the drugs. Lethal Injection was not designed by a medical professional – it was scribbled on the back of a napkin by a state senator looking for a better way.
There is always room for reforming the penal system. The death penalty is not the only option – it just makes things worse.
I see no difference between someone wanting to kill a killer, than when the original killing happened by the killer. It’s the same urge but that doesn’t mean we have to do it.
A last point on DNA. DNA is a great way to link a person and a piece of biological material, e.g., a hair and a suspect), but the DNA confirmation is only good at connecting those two things. DNA says nothing about how the hair got there or even if the hair was in the place it was claimed to have been found in the first place. It needn’t be planted, it could have ended-up on the site from a shared sweater e.g. – my point is that it’s not the be all and end all of evidence. It’s just one very good tool for investigators and lawyers.
Bill,”Do some research and as for blood thirsty –try informing a few next of kins that their family members are dead and see how that feels — — then comment.”What about having to tell the family of an executed man that it was all a mistake? Do you want to be the guy who has to tell them?I might feel better about executing people if prosecutors and police who planted or withheld evidence, or coerced or bought testimony, and witnesses who lied under oath in capital cases could be charged with capital murder or attempted murder. Also, if cases were not automatically closed after execution we might stand a better chance of getting it right the first time, and not need endless appeals. Until that happens though, eliminating capital punishment is the only sure way to avoid executing innocent people.
Aubrey, the way lethal injection works is that they give the convicted person a drug that makes them unconscious, just like in surgery, then they inject a fatal dose of potassium to stop their heart. They feel no pain and aren’t aware of anything when they die.
Why would you not think money buys you freedom? We have had examples of it over and over again. I watched my friend whose wife was murdered endure 2 years of law enforcement trying to implecate him in her murder even though he was over an hour away from home when it occured. I have to wonder what would have happened if they had spent as much energy on finding the real killer. We have a two-tiered system and there is one level for those with money and another for those who have not. It’s just like our health care system.
Hi, Mary,Hope you are not working too hard. Don’t forget the Dixie Chicks!!!
Hey Bren! I was SO upset to hear that they were breaking up after the Grammys!! I think we saw the last concert.Damn, I hate it when the bad guys win!
Mary, Say it isn’t so!! Where did you hear that. I will be so sad.
It was on NPR last week. I guess they couldn’t take the pressure of the death threats and threats to hurt their families anymore. Makes you proud to be an American, huh? I guess in our country, one can only exercise freedom of speech when they’re saying what everyone wants to hear.
This is indeed sad.
Shows ya what happens when you have corporate controlled media run amok.
Shows you what happens when you open your mouth and fail to consider the consequences of choosing to use unpopular and inflamatory speech.
Don’t be Anti American.
Like they say, the pen is mightier than the sword. Scary how people can be destroyed at the whim of the media.
“unpopular and inflamatory speech.”
Actually, about seventy-two percent of the American public is against the War on Iraq………
Not very “unpopular.”
Abestos, so what is Anti-American about expressing your opinion? What is Anti-American about being against the war?What is Anti-American about knowing that Bush is the worst president we’ve ever had?If you think people’s lives should be threatened for their beliefs, then why don’t you go live in Iran or Iraq?
Save those concert ticket stubs Mary.
They’ll be worth a lot someday.
As relics of this sad and scary time.
I wonder how much I could get for ASBESTOS on ebay in a couple years?
$0.24