Some Wichitans are pouncing on news that the cost estimate of the downtown arena has risen from $184.5 million to $201 million — as it turns out, the amount of revenue now expected to be raised from the 30-month arena sales tax.
Cynics will see that as too convenient. But the higher price tag of the arena wasn’t that hard to predict — many public projects around the nation have seen cost overruns because of rising material costs and other factors.
Politically, though, the Sedgwick County Commission will take it on the chin, especially in light of earlier commitments to bring the project in on time and within budget.
“I’m still very, very confident we’re going to be able to build this within the budget we put out,” Commission Chairman Ben Sciortino told The Eagle back in April, referring to the $184.5 million figure.
It might be safer and more realistic for county leaders to pledge that they’ll stay within the revenues brought in by the 30-month tax, whatever that amount raises.
By law, the tax will come to an end Dec. 31, 2007.
If the final cost goes beyond those revenues — and that’s not hard to imagine — commissioners should have to go back to the public and make their case for more funds.
Posted by Randy Scholfield
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63 Comments
Well, of course the estimated cost of the arena is going up. It will continue to rise as long as taxpayers allow it to.Isn’t one of the corollaries of Murphy’s Law that any project will expand to the level of available resources?
Well, the obvious solution is to hire a bunch of overpaid consultants to study the problem….at taxpayer’s expense, of course.
I’m surprised that Jwink isn’t all over the place having a fit.Might as well get used to it. We’re going to have an arena whether we want/need one or not. I doubt if this is the last increase we’ll see. I wish I could quote a job and then go back and raise the cost after the fact.Only in government…
What am I missing here? The majority of taxpayers voted to build an arena without knowing what a 184.5 million dollar building (without a parking garage) would look like, who would build it and believed it would be completed by a certain date. Did I miss anything? How can any of you, that voted for the arena, complain now when the price tag has gone up.
Why was this decision necessary at this time, and while two lame-duck commissioners are still in office? This kind of long-term, tax obligating decision should have been deferred until the two new commissioners are on board.
Rising material costs? Materials costs went up by 10 percent? They need to take that boatload of cow dung down the river.
OK, $16.5 million for the Sciortino Arena, $40 million more for the renovation of the Capitol building. and nothing-zero-nada-zip has even been done yet? Justme’s right. We need to hire another cadre of “experts” to review the cureent “experts” and so on, ad nauseum. Then, in 2012, or so, when we finally getting around to firing Kolb, he can form the “Kolb Group”, and review all of the former “experts”. Where are the Keystone Kops, now that we really need them to rein in these jokers?
JM,Get a quote for anything that has copper in it, wire for instance. An industrial quote from an electrical contractor is only good for a couple of weeks because of the volitility of copper. Sheetrock and steel are 2 other comodities that have gone through the roof in the past year. And let’s not even go into concrete.That said, the people who estimated the job in the first place should have taken that into account or at least made the attempt.
Yeah! What rm6046 said. The Capital Renovations is just as expensive as the arena, still not done, and went up another $40 million, yet no peep.
Ok! We have to get this straight! The Arena itself will not cost $200 million. Lot of that cost goes into land acquition and demolition, over $30 million of it will actually go to the Kansas Colisuem. $20 million in operation and reserve funds and etc. That’s a huge factor in it.
The cost went up primarily is because the project is months behind schedule, and time is money on large projects like this. For each month delay, will cost between $1 million to $5 million.
They were suppose to begin demolistion in January, but that’s been delayed because of land owners sueing the County to get more money from their property forcing the matter to go to court (months of delay), plus the Historic Preservation Board voted to keep building from being demolished (another delay), the Design Review board keeps on going back to the drawing board to get addition design features (such as a brick fascade to look like Old Town), additional cost and delay, they also took a month off to study the feasibility of having the arena on the River (a public campaign push by a former County Commissioner).
Ok! Granted! Most if not all government projects exceed preliminary cost and time completion projections, because you’re talking about government here. But the County went ahead with the additional cost of $16 million, because they know they will collect it under the time frame of the arena tax.
If they are going to collect the money anyways, they are going to spend it. That’s what government does.
But we will have a better arena for it also!
Go Downtown Arena.
I’m telling you people, once it’s complete, we will be very proud of it as a community.
Spyder,”JM, Get a quote for anything that has copper in it, wire for instance. An industrial quote from an electrical contractor is only good for a couple of weeks because of the volitility of copper. Sheetrock and steel are 2 other comodities…”Posted by: Spyder | December 16, 2006 at 09:05 AM
That may be all well and true, but at what percent of the total budget do these items affect a project? I mean, how much cost of a project like this is copper wire or sheetrock? What about steel?
Have all of these materials risen in cost at the same rate?
What is there specifically about concrete that caused it to rise in price?
Before I paid a nickle more, I would want to know the answer to all of these questions and it better be a very specific reason. You know, not the usual answer of transportation costs or “our Malaysian metallurgy contractor has had strikes and lost production time.”
Sometime the contractor math on increased costs gets a bit fuzzy. They might say transporation costs have gone up because of fuel costs, so we’re raising our final bid up by 10 percent. When in reality, the cost of transporation only affected their overhead by 1.5 percent. So they are poking an extra 8.5 percent into their bid for what reason?
Joe — I appreciate the vote of confidence, and I agree with much of what you said, but I guess I’m missing one thing. How will we “have a better arena for it”? The $16.5 million are not for additional amenities or parking or anything like that, is it? As I understand it, that’s just $201.5 million for exactly the same thing that was supposed to cost $184 million? Am I confused?
JM — It’s all in the latest college accounting text called “Basic Administrative Cost Accounting” by Brown, Root and Kellogg.
Unfortunately you better get used to it.The Tulsa plan (3rd link down) sounds like a good one. Scale back ammentities, bells and whistles and what not to bring it in at budget.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04103/299740.stm
http://www.fieldofschemes.com/news/archives/2006/11/how_is_newark_l.html
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4182/is_20060501/ai_n16214483
http://www.boston.com/news/specials/bechtel/part_1/
JM, I’m no expert on the arena, but I deal with construction costs all the time. I would assume that wire, concrete, steel and sheetrock are all major components of the project. I’ve had copper products increase as much as 25%. Same with steel and sheetrock. And like it or not, transportation costs have a serious impact. But the biggest influence is what you Conservatives like to call the “global economy”. When you buy concrete, you’re no longer just dealing with local business. Places like China and India and The Emerates have a major effect on the price you pay. Supply and demand.”So they are poking an extra 8.5 percent into their bid for what reason?”"They” can’t get away with that. “They” don’t do that if they want to remain competitive or stay in business. People in my business don’t depend on contractors as their sole source of information. I know what steel, copper, sheetrock, and concrete cost. I also know what my contractor’s profit margin and the cost of labor is. Try slipping an extra “8.5%” in on me and I’ll find another contractor. Again, supply and demand.How much could material costs affect the total? 15-20% isn’t unheard of. Especially for a project of this magnitude and timeline.
Higher cost for building materials have gone up because China is buying up everything that is being produced to build up their country. They have one goal in mind and that is to become a stronger, industrially superior country than the USofA. You ask where the cost of steel and copper will affect the bottom line - every inch of electrical line that is piped into that building will be copper wire or a component of it. Copper prices have gone through the roof. That is why you see the copper ground wires cut from the Westar poles. Scrap copper is selling for 2/3rds more that it was 3 years ago. If you don’t believe this ask any electrical contractor how many times they have been robbed and the only thing taken was wire that could be sold as scrap copper. Even PVC prices have escalated. Add to that the increased price for concrete and I am surprised that the price hasn’t gone up even more. With a project of this magnitude we can expect a 25% cost overrun when the change orders are completed. The fun has just begun.
rm6046,
According to an article (12/13), the 9% cost increase is due to increases in furniture for “premium suites”, technology, sighs, curtain equipment and general inflation. Acquiring properties along Waterman that were not originally planned for also bumped up the cost. Hope that answers your question.
How about this? Henceforth, a contract proviso that allows an certain percentage increase, (based on the cost/plus basis), conditioned that every piece of material that goes into every tax-funded building is manufactured in America. Not a Sam Walton scam deal — the real deal. If a contractor is caught using foriegn materials, huge fines ensue. All the money stays in our economy. I could stomach an increase a little easier knowing that.
Delores: Thanks for trying, but no, it doesn’t. Furniture? Gawd! In Cowboy Stadium the “skyboxes” were originally sold with concrete walls, floors, ceilings, and plumbing stub-outs. The first owner decorated and furnished it anyway they wanted. Subsequent owners redecorated, refurnished, etc. Every venue I know about that has “premium suites”, or whatever they want to call them, sell them, like condos. What are they going to do with these — rent them out, like hotel rooms, by the night? The more I learn the more this is looking like real fucking train wreck.
“How about this? Henceforth, a contract proviso that allows an certain percentage increase, (based on the cost/plus basis), conditioned that every piece of material that goes into every tax-funded building is manufactured in America.”Posted by rm6046 12/16/06 10:09am
rm, you wouldn’t like the effect that would have on the bottom line. Most of the copper used in this country isn’t mined here. A huge percentage of the steel used in this country is milled in Japan. And requiring US content would make a project timeline a nightmare.We all like the idea of “American Made”, but we don’t support that with our check book. Witness American made cars. And in a lot of cases, foriegn made products are higher quality. Sad, but true.
Prediction–it’ll be a quarter BILLION by the time all the lawsuits are paid off.
Easy.
Spyder: Sadly, I know. But, just now and then, an old man can still dream.
But, hey, thanks for understanding.
Come on Capn, isn’t that prediction kind of a slam dunk? If we really want to find fault, let’s take a look at some of the tactics they used to sell the arena. Like blackmail. The only reason I voted for the arena was because of the threat to raise property taxes for 20-25 years to pay for renovations to the Coliseum.Lawsuits? Sad sign of our times.
rm, I go back a ways myself (old guy here, too). When I got into this business, I was stunned at what construction costs. You eventually just get numb to it.Thanks for a reasonable discussion.
Good morning everyone: The White Elephant, albatross, unneeded, unwanted Downtown Arena SANTA CLAUS has already arrived for many affiliated arena insiders. The politicos, the preliminary designers, out of town consultants, real estate negotiators, eager beaver TV talking heads and Clark Kent newspaper reporters, have already received their salaries and bonuses for several years now since this monster originally arose from the swamp of government spending.
NOW ITS TIME TO STOP THIS GRAVY TRAIN IN ITS TRACKS AND TAKE ANOTHER LONG HARD LOOK.
LET’S PUT THE $250,000,000.35 on the green velvet table and PRIORITIZE the spending of this humongous pile of money. Its time to stop pouring good money after bad.
Do the taxpayers want one giant concrete white elephant arena which will cost additional unbudgeted millions in operational costs: electricity, natural gas, replacement of broken glass from Kansas hail storms, cleaning, management and operations staff even for an empty building, scads of water for the ice hockey slabs plus refrigeration equipment therefor, booze and skittles for the VIP sky boxes some of which will be given free to County and City executives “because they own it” as at Lawrence-Dumont Stadium, etc., etc.
OR DO SEDGWICK COUNTY AND WICHITA TAXPAYERS WANT TO PRIORITIZE THE $250,000,000.43 FOR SUCH THINGS AS:
1) Pay for jail expansion and Spirit employee training center on a “pay as you go” basis thus cutting the cost in half. Move the Spirit employee training center to the downtown River Walk site where it belongs to centralize that metro-wide training function.
2) Build an expanded convention center somewhere in vicinity of Century II for CONVENTIONS rather than for ghostly non-existent professional ice hockey and basketball teams.
3) Complete a theoretically good idea — the River Walk project without the threat of a parking glop from occasional arena crowds.
4) Build a new arena at a much smaller cost ADJACENT TO THE PRESENT KANSAS COLISEUM. When completed, remove the Kansas Coliseum building leaving intact the 5,000 previously FREE unobstructed and relatively secure parking spaces.
5) Actually finish the railroad overpasses even if some portions of the flawed construction has to be removed and re-built. Look into moving the freight train railroad tracks around Wichita somehow.
5 1/2) Remove the Black Bear Bosin statue from Wichita politics. He’s not running for mayor this year anyway. Do I hear a sigh of relief from Mayor Mayans?
6) Establish a “Future Wichita Water Commission” to figure out how Wichita will actually have a clean/safe drinking water supply in five years.
7) Build a new water reservoir on the west side of Wichita on the south branch of the Ninnescah River and also the Chikaskia River west of the Harper County landfill site.
Build a new homeless center somewhere, where all social services agencies can congregate their services to solve problems in addition to warehousing people.
9) Add a soccer field to the baseball grounds at Lawrence-Dumont Stadium, if possible, to make it work year round.
10) Build a glittering international bowling center in Wichita by the Arkansas River to attract bowlers from all over the world. Bowling is fast becoming one of the premier active sports for people over 30 world-wide. Bowling is the only sport that will put Wichita on the world map.
11) Decision on Wichita Cowtown. This is one of Wichita’s premier developmental locations and should be used for something productive.
12) Dredge the Arkansas River and dam it up somewhere downstream to produce a lake vista adjacent to downtown Wichita.
14) Expand the current ICE SPORTS building to install an additional 800 seats on the north side of its north ice sheet so more great locally produced ice shows can be held there.
15) Reorganize City and County governments to make them more responsive to the people. Fire the city and county prima donna managers.
16) Move the Wichita Mayor to the top floor of City Hall and the City Manager to the first floor where he belongs.
Lets be positive … Wichita can be great without the 1/4 billion dollar White Elephant downtown arena.
Are there some Wichita and Sedgwick County business leaders and budding politicians who will stand up and be counted??
JWink: You were doing pretty good there (with a tweak here and there), until you got to your closing question.
Answer: Nope!
LOL JWink…
That was a good list, not sure about what u meant by the Black Bear Statue though, (i must have missed something).
What i find amazing is how our arena is going to cost 201 million when the Alltel Arena cost 144 Million in ‘99. After inflation it comes to approx 165 Million, after a bit of tweaking for cost of building materials increasing anywhere between 10 and 25%, that takes us to about 180 mil.
Oh, did i mention the Alltel Arena in Little Rock is 18,000 SEATS! Oh, did i mention that it was funded entirely by Alltel, City, State and Other organizations money, no tax increase?
Oh, another difference, NO HANDOUT TO THE RICH, SKY BOXES!
OK City Ford center, built for 89 million in ‘99… Has sky boxes, entirely finished and paid for by COX COMMUNICATIONS. Financed by 1% sales tax simulary to ours, difference, supported by a majority of the people, PLUS they went lied to.
Someone else’s comment earlier stands out and i agree:”According to an article (12/13), the 9% cost increase is due to increases in furniture for “premium suites”, technology, sighs, curtain equipment and general inflation. Acquiring properties along Waterman that were not originally planned for also bumped up the cost.”
I PROVED to Wolverton et al in the last days before the vote they were lying to us about the costs, i posted my numbers to the news stations and nothing was done.
“Prediction–it’ll be a quarter BILLION by the time all the lawsuits are paid off.
Easy.
Posted by: Canamerica | December 16, 2006 at 11:25 AM ”
Hell, by the time you bring in the polition that will have to be cleaned up, the unneeded, and downright idiotic “downtown neighborhood improvements” and the rest of the frills that they are calling for, the entire project will be a Billion Bucks… 250 Mil for the arena, 250 for redoing all of the streets in downtown, another 250 in consultant fees and a 250 mill budget that will disappear into the pockets of the Gob’s.
WE have been lied to since day 1. Its time to kick the entire commission to the curb (except for maybe Tim) and start from scratch.
I really wish I could find a copy of the original http://www.voteyea.com website… Of course they shut that down right after the election. If anyone has any of the original literature I would like to compare it again…
The arena will be paid off in no time, just like the toll roads have been paid off in no time.
What’s that you say? You still have to pay a toll to get on the expressway? Exactly.
If a tax is going to expire and contractors and politicians will lose a source of revenue the best thing for them is to increase to cost while there is still time. The arena was nothing more than corporate welfare so Mayans could pay back his campaign donors at our expense.
“The arena was nothing more than corporate welfare so Mayans could pay back his campaign donors at our expense.”
WHAT! How does Mayans have anything to do with the Arena? Mayans wasnt even in office when this whole thing started!
The Arena is a County Project. More like Ben Sciortino et al and their “Friends”
Doug, when you can talk intelligably, please feel free to come back… Until then, crawl into a hole and stay there.
Joe Williams! We were told that the entire cost - land, demolition, road improvements,PARKING, reserve fund, and everything else, would be 184.5 million. Now we see that, even after stripping out parking and reserve fund we are looking at 200 million. This is called bait-and-switch.
jwink - I disagee with you on further damming the river. I think there are better ways to utilyze it. However, we ain’t far apart on that.
With all these changes this thing should be put back to the people. After all, we kept bringing it back every time we voted it down; lets see if the people still want it.
You CFSMWs love to claim this is such a wonderful thing and that a majority of County residents want it. Well, now that we have learned more about this thing, lets just find out.
Hey Ben, Guys,
I found the original PDF file from the “Arena Committee”. It states 184 Mill for parking, Arena, Pavilions @ existing KC.
Listed in the original proposal was a list of other arenas built in the country by cities of similar size.
Only two other arenas were completed for more than 200 Mill, Both of those had a multi thousand stall parking garages built as part of the project. They were both more than 18k seats.
Each
Interesting Tony. Can you post the pdf some way? It would be good to compare the lies to the emerging reality. I wonder how the CFSMWs like Joe Williams will try to debut that?
Tony - anything there about ending the tax if the $184 million is reached early?
About 15-20 years or so ago, there was a plan to dredge out the river, etc. Some radical environmentalist group (I don’t remember which one, now) got up in arms and raised holy hell because it was going to kill 4,000 CARP, of all things! It got so bad that the whole plan was scrapped and just went away. Anybody else remember that?
The Nation Association For Prevention of Cruel and Unusual Punishment of Carp, or somesuch wacko sect, I don’t know.
rm - there would be other concerns about dredging the river. Carp are at the bottom of the list.
I would go with the advice of some biologists before taking such action.
Yes, Ben, I agree completely. My point was simply recalling what happened back then. The carp are at the bottom of any list I might have, too. But it was at the top of theirs.
I have been involved with Ark River issues for years and don’t remember carp as ever being a priority. There are a number of species there, some endangered. I do think we should keep that in mind as we look at the river.
Hey Tony, try not to insult others intelligence when you don’t know what you are talking about. Mayans took office in 2003, the arena vote passed in 2004.
As best I as I can nail it down, it was after ‘87, but before ‘91. The rest of it is really vague. Seems like they gave presentations at the Riverside CPO, and Civitan, et al. Those are the only two I remember. I just remember thinking how ridiculous it was.
Doug - as I recall the Arena thing was long since in motion when Mayans ran. Unfortunately, he has signed on with the GOBN since he took office, even though he was elected as an outsider who would hopefully clean up the mess there.
I’m not sure of the exact dates (recurring CRS), Ben, but I think you’re right. Kinda’ changing the subject, but not really, Mayans has been a real dissappointment. He was touted to be a “breath of fresh air”, etc., and, as you say, putting it succinctly, all bullshit. HE was in the GOBN’s pocket all along.
One of the problems with dredging the river is that thousands of tons of pollutants from aircraft and other industries got dumped in the river over a period of decades; such things as zinc chromate, etc. Dredging would likely stir them up and pollute the water all over again!
rm - so true. I supported Carlos back then but … not again.
I’d like to see that young guy (can’t remember the name) run again.
Jed - there are a number of pollution problems with dredging; that is just one of them. Also, with the amount of sediment naturally carried by a prairie stream damming is not always a very good idea.
Ben: I’ve got a great business idea for you, Vaughn and me. We’ll open a “Rememberer Service” for geezers like us. We hire young people to man the phone lines, and people can call in a register stuff they want to have remembered for a small fee. Then, when they try to recall it, they can just speed dial a number, give their password, and they’ll tell us what we are trying to remember. WE probably won’t make any money, but we’d get our service free!!
According to the breakdown in the paper the other day, one item in the increase was management and planning…which went from an estimated $72,500 to over $1.2 million. A twenty fold increase?
Smells bad….
Raptor: The whole thing REEKS !!
$1.2 million … I wonder whose pocket THAT goes to …
Damned good question….
According to someone involved in yesterday’s police rally, Kolb is the highest paid city official in the state…. anybody know if that is true?
10% of the people who actually voted for it are still dazed enough to admit it. The rest of them have come to their senses and realized they were hoodwinked, lied to, etc.
Somebody please help me understand this and correct me if I am wrong.If you go to the http://www.kslegistature.org and look up the bill SB58 for the year 2005, it is a pdf file, eight pages long.It is the bill that was signed into law that allows the counties to increase retail sale taxes for their projects.Look on page 2, paragraph (C), the bill does not say anything about what the final cost would be on the Arena, only the 1 percent increase for thirty months.If look down to page 5, paragraph (k), it said something of that the county can amend the tax rate to a fix rate of 2 percent.If I understood it correctly the county is allow to make an amendment to increase taxes another 1 percent for the Arena?
rm - the Business Journal did a poll a while back on the Arena. A fairly large % who had voted yes said they would vote no. Virtually none the otner way around.
That’s not surprising, at all, Ben.
Wiseman — I don’t know. But I’m sure if there is another way to screw the people, Kolb will be working on it, as soon as he gets through screwing the WPD.
I am told that a lot of the infrastructure cost for the Arena (drainage etc) has been shifted to the City budget along with the WaterWalk costs.
To quote, “According to an article (12/13), the 9% cost increase is due to increases in furniture for “premium suites”, technology, sighs, curtain equipment and general inflation. Acquiring properties along Waterman that were not originally planned for also bumped up the cost.”
Who in the world did they hire to buy this stuff, Dennis Kozlowski?
Tony: My reference to artist, Black Bear Bosin’s “Keeper of the Plains” statue was written in haste and inserted in my partial list of alternative improvements that could be made with the quarter billion dollars proposed for the downtown arena.
The whole “Keeper of the Plains” project seems very strange. I can’t find anyone in city/county government who will take credit for it. It’s just another big tax money boondoggle with no real historic purpose.
As I recall from the EAGLE, the Keeper of the Plains statue is being raised some 40 feet to “improve its visibility.” Its pedestal is FAKE limestone boulders, none of which exist naturally at the surface anywhere near downtown Wichita. Amazingly, the Native American statue is being framed by steel pylons evocative of San Francisco’s Golden Gate Bridge to suspend a simple concrete pedestrian bridge. What kind of imagery does this project?
Then, I believe, “eternal” natural gas flares will burn in the vicinity.
Does anyone recall the cost of this monstrosity? I believe the figure of $28,000,000.45 was mentioned. (The real Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco only cost $35,000,000 to construct!)
Back in the late 1990’s, I attended a public comment meeting at Century II chaired by a consultant from Georgia or Alabama, one Al Nucifera (sp?). I recall he proposed this “improvement” at the confluence of the two Arkansas Rivers.
The public in attendance, including some who appeared to be native Americans, vociferously objected to his plan with loud cries of “we don’t want that,” and “this doesn’t make sense!”
A Wichita Native American who was affiliated with the Indian Center and who knew artist, Black Bear Bosin, showed me how Bosin had carefully pinpointed the elevation of the Keeper of the Plains statue so it was perfectly framed through the large glass exterior windows of the Indian Center’s ceremonial meeting room. Of course, Blackbear Bosin’s desire for this perfect alignment for “as long as the sun shall shine” was unceremoniously destroyed by the current “riverbank improvement” project.
As I mentioned in a letter-to-the-editor a year or so ago, “rings of fire” have bad connotations for Native Americans who know their history. Back in the late 1700’s or early 1800’s, white Euro-Americans killed a little family of Shawnee Indians camped on the banks of the Ohio River.
Later, leaders of that bunch, Col. Crawford and his son-in-law, a doctor as I recall, were captured. After much deliberation by tribal elders, the chief told Col. Crawford of his terrible fate. Crawford begged Simon Girty, a white friend of the Shawnees, to shoot him but Girty refused. The following 12 hours in the “ring of fire” are related by Col. Crawford’s son-in-law, who was allowed to escape, in many history books. The location is marked in Ohio/Kentucky.
The next generation of these same Shawnee Indians moved to Kansas in about 1830 to establish their Methodist, Baptist and Quaker missions in Wyandotte, Johnson and Douglas counties where they assimilated peacefully with their neighbors considering this included the Civil War years. In 1870, these Shawnees moved once again from Kansas to northeast Oklahoma (Miami, Vinita, Bluejacket and Big Cabin, etc.)
As a world class historian of Shawnee Indian history, I can relate this story. Any Shawnee’s out there?—–
JW - not Shawnee but part Cherokee. I found the phrase “as long as the sun shall shine” reminiscent of “as long as the grass shall grow and the rivers run” - we were promised that after we signed treaties with Euro-Americans our remaining lands would be ours.
It would have made much more sense to ‘downsize’ the surroundings of the Keeper rather than trying to remove the Keeper from the earth. Low footbridges across the River would make infinitely more sense than these crazy suspension bridges.
Ben Huie: You are correct … I couldn’t remember the right words, “as long as the grass shall grow and the rivers run.” Interesting that our ever flowing Kansas rivers are now endangered!
As you probably know, the so-called Loyal Shawnees, the group that came to northeast Kansas in the 1840’s along with Tecumseh’s brother, became Cherokees when they moved south, down around Miami/Vinita, Oklahoma, in about 1870.
Finally about five years ago, the Cherokee/Loyal Shawnees received permission by the Federal Government to again become the independent Shawnee Indian Tribe. Some Shawnee-Cherokees who were eligible, didn’t change back to Shawnee because of the benefits of remaining Cherokee. I am acquainted with the chiefs of both the Shawnee and Cherokee tribes unless recently changed. Incidentally, the Cherokee Indian tribe is the largest in the U.S.
JWick - there are two recognized bands of the Cherokee - eastern and western. These are the two groups who had been incarcerated in concentration camps in North carolina and Oklahoma. What is less well known is that there is a third group of Cherokee - those who went renegade into east Tennessee. On my mother’s side I am descended from that third group. Our last ‘official’ interaction with the US BIA was back in the 1930s or so when they sent an Indian agent into east Tennessee. He disappeared without a trace.
Perhaps a third and final vote on a downtown arena is appropriate and should be held during one of next years municipal elections (primay in February with the general election in April 2007) with the stipulation that monies collected to date via the 1% sales tax be used to reduce property taxes. The first vote for a downtown arena in 1992 was voted down. The second vote in 2004 was passed by a narrow margin. The first two votes set a presidence for a third vote. Perhaps our County Commissioners, with the two new commission members to be sworn in next month, should let the people decide if this $16 million increase is something they would approve or reject. Since the 2004 arena vote was sold to the people as a sales tax versus a property tax increase, the prospect of a property tax decrease might play well with the voters.
As I recall the proponents of the arena spent approximately $600,000 selling the arena to the voters versus approximately $20,000 by the proponents.
The unfortunate thing about using a sales tax to finance the arena project is that it places people who have no interest in attending arena events or who are too poor to afford tickets to the events in a position requiring them to pay for the arena every time they make a purchase for themselves or their families. They are essentially subsidizing entertainment for other people, particularly those who can afford the price of arena tickets. As I recall, the precincts with the heaviest concentration of yes votes were from people living in the more affluent neighborhoods located in east Wichita and Sedgwick County.
Perhaps the downtown arena should still be built by the private sector, and not with public money. In this manner, those people who pay to attend arena events will pay their fair share of the cost of the arena facility itself, and the taxpaying public will be left out of paying for potential losses if the project fails, and they will not be subsidizing the entertainment venue for other people.
Perhaps a third and final vote on a downtown arena is appropriate and should be held during one of next years municipal elections (primay in February with the general election in April 2007) with the stipulation that monies collected to date via the 1% sales tax be used to reduce property taxes. The first vote for a downtown arena in 1992 was voted down. The second vote in 2004 was passed by a narrow margin. The first two votes set a presidence for a third vote. Perhaps our County Commissioners, with the two new commission members to be sworn in next month, should let the people decide if this $16 million increase is something they would approve or reject. Since the 2004 arena vote was sold to the people as a sales tax versus a property tax increase, the prospect of a property tax decrease might play well with the voters.
As I recall the proponents of the arena spent approximately $600,000 selling the arena to the voters versus approximately $20,000 by the proponents.
The unfortunate thing about using a sales tax to finance the arena project is that it places people who have no interest in attending arena events or who are too poor to afford tickets to the events in a position requiring them to pay for the arena every time they make a purchase for themselves or their families. They are essentially subsidizing entertainment for other people, particularly those who can afford the price of arena tickets. As I recall, the precincts with the heaviest concentration of yes votes were from people living in the more affluent neighborhoods located in east Wichita and Sedgwick County.
Perhaps the downtown arena should still be built by the private sector, and not with public money. In this manner, those people who pay to attend arena events will pay their fair share of the cost of the arena facility itself, and the taxpaying public will be left out of paying for potential losses if the project fails, and they will not be subsidizing the entertainment venue for other people.
John - you are absolutely correct. Not only has the cost gone up but what we are getting has gone down. The 184 million was advertised to include parking and a significant reserve fund to cover operating losses. Utilities at the site were to be included. Now parking has been deleted, reserve fund mostly eliminated, and utilities paid for by the City. Yes, now that we know what the project has morphed into, let us have a vote on the “new version”.
weather it’s a dedication ceramony or any form of entertainment, all the seats won’t be filled.
Oh but there needs to be alcohol, (sky boxes) just can’t do anything without it. Have you recognized how fast the media jumps in when someone steals an “events” alcohol?(reflection ridge golf).Wichita, IMHO, has a “Keep Up With The Jones’s” attitude that is killing this blue collar worker. The city would be much cleaner, safer and sell itself towards growth only when the money is appropriated acordingly.
The increase should have gone to law enforcement.
Why do the people of Wichita keep buying into these balony scams the city and county government keep throwing at us. Nothing is working here because of our leadership and their blinded, misguided thinking. Lets see, the exploration place is now loosing along with cow town, the coliseum, the poorly designed and overbuilt walkway across the river, and nothing ever gets done about the flooding problems, or the traffic problems in west Wichita. What about those colums of lights at central & McClean, now that was a total waste. I know, lets get the public to pay for a new Arena!! That way it will take the spotlight away from our poor handeling of city (taxpayer) funds, plus we as councelmen and women can make a name for us. Come on!! What a bunch of looser we have running this county and city. I will bet anything to anyone that the arena will have a 250 millon price on it when completed, and the tax will never go away, thell find some other need for it. The new arena will not pull in the numbers the city wants and they will threaten us all with another tax increase. That seems to be the only thing this government knows how to do!!I for one am sick of this government wasting our money. If your going to build the arena do it right! How many time has all the council been to the coliseum of Koch arena? I have hundreds of time so I do concider myself an expert on what patrons want in a new arena, I just wish the government body would just please for once, listen to the people who know and have been to places like that many times!! PLEASE!! I was against it but now it’s to late. I suggest if your spending 250 millon on it it, it should be 18-20 thousands seats. 15 thousand? Where did they pull that rediculous number from. The arena will fail due to lack of 1)parking, the old town parking will not handle that much and not many people will walk even 3 blocks in downtown Wichita in the winter. No mater what the head cheeses think, they are so wrong!and 2) they will make the arena so cramped with no leg room or butt room it will be like Koch arena where you acually have to sit sideways in areas. People are not 120 lbs and 5′2″. If we are going to build it it should be moved over 2 blocks and some parking made and user friendly like tripple the ladies restrooms and make the concessions easy to get thru. 5 minutes is all I wait for any food or drink. I came to see the performance, not stand in line.