Washington Post reporter Thomas Ricks’ piece exposes the serious U.S. failures to train Iraqi security forces and confirms the worst fears of many Americans.
We’re not succeeding at this, either.
Remember, training Iraqis to stand up has been the centerpiece of U.S. strategy for getting out of Iraq, and is likely to figure large in the Baker study group recommendations.
The Army’s own exit interviews with officers found widespread criticism of the training efforts as under-resourced, undermanned and underplanned. As Ricks reports, “Many said they felt poorly supported by the Army while in Iraq, with intermittent shipments of supplies and interpreters who often did not seem to understand English.”
Sound familiar? Further evidence of the administration’s almost criminal incompetence and poor planning.
Posted by Randy Scholfield
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142 Comments
And will the wingers believe this?
NO.
“We can’t cut and run. If you question the administration, you’re helping the terrists. 9/11. 9/11! Freedom’s on the march! All of this violence and chaos being reported is just a sign of the dominance of the evil liberal media. They hate America. If you point out the incompetence of the administration, you want the terrorists to win! Liberals hate America!”
See, it’s easy to be a wingnut. Just deny reality, tune your brain to a fantasy wavelength, and you’ll be spouting insane – and widely held – right-wing talking points/beliefs in no time. The most important aspect is the ignoring of reality. And when reality is reported, deny, evade, and switch the focus. Thus one can be an exemplary hardcore right-winger.
Please quit believing everything the media has to say. That includes the left and right side of the media. The Washington Post is a huge liberal anti-bush, anti-american newspaper. I am from Wichita, but live in Virginia right now. I have spent two tours in Iraq with the US Army. We have more soldiers die in peace time due to drunk driving and stupidity than they are dying in Iraq. The Iraqi security forces are being trained to standard and are getting better. How do I know, I talked to a few soldiers from the units that are training them. So instead of reading something and being like every other Democrat out there at following everything like a bunch of sheep. Do some research, look up a lot of different sources, balance the evidence for and against, and then make up your mind. Please do not read one newspaper and make your determination. God Bless America!!!
How are they getting better when they stand by and do little to nothing to counter or prevent insurgnt attacks? It should not take over 3 years to train a security force or Army. Members of their leadership have bilked or stolen the aid we have given them. We are spending nearly 2 billion dollars a week and have gotten little success for our efforts. We are selling arms to our enemies and have now been forced, by the incredible stupidity of this administration, to negotiate with Syria and Iran to resolve the problems with the insurgency. Most of Iraqi’s don’t want us there and believe our presence has been the major contribution to the continued instability and violence. We no longer have an honorable reason or objective in our presence their …..
Mr. Wohlever,Your brief essay calls for facts but your rhetoric stated no facts. Sir, presenting conversations with rank-and-file soldeirs does not amount to fact of total progress, it only presents opinion.As a former soldier I can attest to my experience which was to be a duty bound go-forward troop. I certainly felt I was doing a good job but my credibility was weak with regards to overall progress.I suggest you listen to Gen Barry McCaffery (ret.). He is not a partisan manipulator. He has predicted each phase of this Iraqi campaign. Unfortunately, his predictions come true.ThanksJim
Ken,
Perhaps you can keep your argument focused on one topic at a time instead of utilizing the classic liberal debate tactic of thorwing as many accusations in one statement as you can?
It shouldn’t take 3 years to train an entire army?
Yeah right. It takes up to a year to train one person in our military and we have it down to a very nice system.
Now you think it is going to be easy to train an entire army from scratch in the middle of a war under not so wonderful circumstances?
I am amazed at the progress we have made so far.
Nathan,With all due respect, you have never shown any ability to be anything other than a partisan hack who professes victory and godliness when reality says otherwise. You Sir, are just a lingering pain in the ass.
Dayum Jim G that one is gonna leave a mark!
LOL. Never saw Nathan defined quite that way.
What we are doing in Iraq is not only ineffective and useless. It is actually gonna be harmful in the long term.
The best comparison to what we are doing to Iraq to American terms?
Imagine LA incorporating the crips, bloods, and other gang members into the police, local government, and national guard.
The various Iraqi factions have infiltrated all levels of the government, police and military. We have given them arms and authority. As soon as we “stand down”, every thug and zealot will revert to personal allegiances. It’ll be coup after bloody coup.
It might have worked had we removed the trainees from country for training. But it is too late for that now.
I think bush and company never had a plan for this to end. Too much money is being made. I doubt that will continue to be allowed by the American people for very much longer.
Iraq’s ultimate destiny is a period of very bloody chaos followed by the ascension of one or more strongmen to power.
Nathan: By that, of course, Jim G. means that you effectively counter his liberal ideas.
Rgarding Randy’s less than intelligent comment on poor planning by the admininstration, how do you plan for the changing face of war? You adapt the best you can. Do you know that it could have been done any better given the circumstances? You don’t, of course. Classic stand outside the fire and throw stones garbage.
Nathan, what progress have you seen? Sems as though even the conservatives are getting disenchanted with the way the war is going.Matthew, more soldiers are getting killed by drunk driving and stupidity than in Iraq? What reliable source gave you that information?Those who say that it’s no big deal that soldiers are dying because more Americans die from heart diseaase or car accidents each year are wrong. It’s ALWAYS a big deal when we risk killing our youth by sending them off to war.
I’ve come to the conclusion that people like Nathan throw the term “liberal” about because they think “Nigga” would be politically incorrect — well Nathan types like you are the Niggas of this administration —
I have always been an independent that can intelligently weigh the facts presented and make informed choices and decisions based on them — not the mindless pap provided by either party …
Uh, no outlander.
Containment was working quite nicely with Iraq.
“How do you plan for the changing face of war?”
Uh….by being more judicious in starting the war in the FIRST place?
Hey don’t listen to folks like me. Had this blog been around before we invaded Iraq my opinion would have been the same and I would have accurately predicted what Iraq has become.
The problem for you bushbots is that the good American folks who DID support bush’s crusade are getting wise. You kooks are the only ones left supporting this disaster.
Send your kids to fight it not mine.
Jim G
Stop giving nathan types any credibility bu starting with “… with all due espect..” he / they do not deserve it …………
With all due respect, Ken, just because Nathan doesn’t agree with you doesn’t mean he doesn’t deserve respect. He’s in Iraq, so at least he’s not a hypocrite. He’s putting his money where his mouth is, that alone gives him some credibility.
Mary,Amen! And thank you. Nathan is completely correct, plus he deserves not “some credibility”…he deserves absolute credibility.
Look at it this way.
In 3 years we have completely destroyed an entire nations army, effectively neutralized the governoning bodies of the former Iraq Regime, made massive improvements in infrasturucture, provided training for hundreds of thousands of Iraq Security forces and police, have continued to adapt and overcome the constantly changing IDF attack tactics… and on and on.
All that and more in 3 years.
I am not saying it is perfect. I am not saying it couldn’t be better. I am not even saying I am happy with the way things are now. I am not blind to what is happening here.
However, I am not on the complete flip side saying everything is doomed, we suck, everything sucks, Bush sucks, blah blah blah.
I am saying that all you seem to be able to do is see the bad because that is all you get to hear in a news sound bite on CNN.
Everyday we are all here working towards a better Iraq, we are not just sitting around getting blown up like some of you seem to think.
but but but…
Nathan, to most of these people, CNN IS life. That’s all they know.
Nathan does get the credibility that he is there.
But to be fair, he is not in a position to be objective.His portion is obedience. I am not saying I would have it otherwise.
golfnuts is just a country club prick.
Thank you JR for your perfect wrapup of golfnut.
Nathan,
“… made massive improvements in infrasturucture,”
Really?
‘Bechtel ends Iraq rebuilding after a rough 3 years’http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/11/01/BECHTEL.TMP“Bechtel Corp. went to Iraq three years ago to help rebuild a nation torn by war. Since then, 52 of its people have been killed and much of its work sabotaged as Iraq dissolved into insurgency and sectarian violence.”—
Also, rebuilding infrastructure that we destroyed with our bombs isn’t really making “improvements”. It’s repairing our destruction.
Ooops, some more “problems”,
‘Iraq insurgency now financially self-sustaining’http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N25372560.htm
Iraqies hijack the radio station, and state they don’t want new infrastructure, they want security. Ingrates! But on the flip side, what good is a road or school if you can’t go to it without risk of death? Maybe Nathan needs to get off base more (not recommended).
Jim G,
You sir are a legend in your own mind.
As a former soldier you should know to give more respect to those on active duty and in harm’s way.
I agree with J R’s idea that containment was a better idea than invasion and so-called nation building.
If you compare nation-building post WWII, you will notice that there were Military Commanders utilized that were very effective in maintaining order and reorganizing hostile countries.
The problem with today’s nation building is that politicians are calling the shots from outside of the fish bowl instead of letting military commanders have total control.
It should have been Military Control first, then let Iraq go to a Democratic government next after and only after the military had tight control.
Of course, that would probably not be possible due to size of the small force in place in Iraq.
If it were me, I would have divided Iraq under military Governorships 3 or 4 areas and disallowed any travel between the areas without clearance.
With that said, Democracy must be wanted by the people of the country and on their own terms. To force Democracy just doesn’t work.
His presence in Iraq does not give him the credibility you think he deserves — JR makes the point quite well…..
I have as much respect for his opinion as he shows for others here —
Hypocrite? I did 2 tours in Viet Nam, and 20 years of dedicated service to the country. Since my retirement I’ve done volunteer work for the VA, USO, Disabled Veterans and a small host of other non military related organizations — I think my credibility has got to be at least better than yours ………..
On that note — I am retiring from blogging here —- it’s the same people, saying the same things over and over, left, right and in the middle — and not making a damn bit of difference.
Y’all get what you work for — a backward, conservative state that will continue to be the butt of late night talk show jokes and rallying cries for the talking heads like O’Reilly, Beck and Olberman —
If we know it takes up to a year to train one soldier then why was this not taken into account when planning this Iraq War?
I have to doubt that the US has to train an Iraqi to fight – these people have been fighting for years – they KNOW how to shoot guns and kill. What they don’t know is how to dress up in their new uniforms and march in lockstep. Maybe the US trainers need to start fighting like the insurgents and then maybe the Iraqi soldiers will actually be winning some of their battles.
but I have to wonder, if Halliburton is in charge of training the trainers for Iraqis – then perhaps that is why there is so much trouble with the trainer program? Profits accumulate while Halliburton is dragging their feet?
JM,
How do you establish long-term “Military Control” when the “enemy” doesn’t wear uniforms?
Where would we get 400,000 troops for “post-war administration”?
‘War simulation in 1999 pointed out Iraq invasion problems’http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/11/04/war.games.ap/” A series of secret U.S. war games in 1999 showed that an invasion and post-war administration of Iraq would require 400,000 troops, nearly three times the number there now.
And even then, the games showed the country still had a chance of dissolving into chaos.”—-
Like Kerry (almost) said — if you don’t do your homework, you get us “stuck in Iraq”.
Ken please don’t leave. My father is a vietnam vet and he feels exactly as you do.
Matter of fact MOST vets I know feel like you do.
My question to you, how did you feel WHILE you were serving? Did it feel like you were doing the right thing while you were there? Was it a survival thing? I think when many of these Iraq veterans look back, they’re going to feel differently. I truly believe that maybe right now all they’re trying to do is survive.
One thing that I’ve learned from the WW2 vets that I’ve gotten to know, is that it NEVER leaves you.
I think some of these Iraq soldiers think that once it’s done, it’ll be done. They aren’t allowed to have feelings about it right now or they wouldn’t be able to do their jobs.
I can never ever put myself in their shoes and I won’t pretend to, all I can do is say what I’ve felt from the ones I’ve had the opportunity to listen to.
So maybe we should just LET the ones fighting feel that they’re doing the right thing- and the rest of us can try to stop the war. Because I’d really hate to have them thinking their sacrifice is wrong while they are sacrificing.
They are Americans and whether right or wrong, they have no choice in the matter.
This whole Iraq War was poorly planned and poorly executed. On that I think we can all agree. But that’s what is to be expected when one party was in total control of the government.
With this past election, I think the majority of Americans have woke up to the fact that we need a bipartisan government that is focused on what to do to get us out of Iraq. And if the whiny Republicans on this blog will let the new Democrat leadership at least take office before sniping at them – maybe, just maybe, something will get done.
And if we don’t get back to working together – then God help us all.
The question is why? What have we gained by invading Iraq?
We knocked off a tinpot dictator that had no WMD, had no connection to 9/11 and was such a paper tiger that he couldn’t even control all of his own country?
Rumsfeld said that we would be in and out in six months. Cheney said that the insurgency was in it’s last throes. Bush said that we had to fight them over there.
Now Rumsfeld is gone, Cheney is in Saudia Arabia, of all places, trying to get the Saudis to help calm Iraq and Bush can’t even meet with the Iraqi Prime Minister in the Green Zone because of security concerns.
What a mess, and that is not something that can be blamed on the “liberal” media.
By every measure, Iraq is doing worse now than it was pre-invasion.
After billions of dollars and 2,900 American lives, Halliburton has yet to build the first new hospial in Iraq.
As in all wars, the blame rests squarely with the Commander in Chief – not with the media that reports the facts.
That’s why I hate to respond to Nathan. Frankly, I think he’d be better served to quit thinking about. When I was in Nam, we rarely spoke to one another about the overall scheme. Once you’re there, doesn’t really matter how or why you got there.
Nathan was a bit more objective than I expected while I was posting my last.
I too dislike posting in a way that discourages Nathan.
But just as he is doing his job as a soldier, we are doing our jobs as responsible citizens.
I just heard some expert or other. He was saying that the Iraqi troops are absent from their units for 7-10 days a month. It seems Iraq has no banking system, these “troops” leave to take their paychecks to their families. That is no way to run a military. What other things do those guys do when they are usupervised?
Heard on the same program another possible solution. The quieter provinces of Iraq COULD send their troops into the more troubled areas.
“How do I know, I talked to a few soldiers from the units that are training them.”
That’s one type of evidence, Matt. It’s called “anecdotal evidence” (I heard this, I heard that.)
Better evidence would be if we saw the Iraqi army reducing the terrorist attacks.
That, we don’t see. In fact, we see the number and severity of the attacks increasing.
We’ve now spent more time in Iraq than we spent fighting WWII in Europe.
I suspect that the reason that the Iraqi army is not getting trained is that the Bush (TM) administration doesn’t really want an Iraqi army, any more than they want a functioning Iraqi government.
Bush (TM) needs chaos so he can continue to justify control. Control was always the goal.
Also, there’s no easy way to funnel billons of taxpayer dollars to crony contractors and big donors by training their military.
So it doesn’t get done.
Big surprise.
Nathan took a lot of ribbing from us libs for being a state side Marine all gung ho for the Iraq expedition.
Now that he’s actually in the SANDBOX–which is something I wouldn’t wish on anybody–he’s proving that he’s willing to sacrifice for what he believes in.
You have to have a lot of respect for that kind of service.
I realize that when the Christian Peacemaker Team member Tom Fox went to Iraq and was taken hostage and killed, a lot of right-wingers (see Cal Thomas’s article soon after) disrespected him.
I hope we never stoop so low as that just because we disagree with someone’s positions.
Servicemen like Nathan are putting it all on the line for us. They always and without fail deserve our respect.
In the past several days I have seen reports of violence in which the ARI stayed out because “it is too dangerous.” Well, isn’t that what they are supposed to be dealing with? Isn’t that why we trained and equipped them?
The plain fact is that the ARI has the same ethnic/religious devisions as Iraq overall. Given the number of kidnappings etc that have been carried out by uniformed Iraqi soldiers and police I wonder if we aren’t arming the insurgents themselves.
The regime of Maliki is a joke. He cannot even govern his own military; much less the country. And if he “crushes” the insurgents etc as many here are calling for doesn’t he end up doing exactly what we just condemned saddam of doing?
Bring them all home, now, right now, not tomorrow, not the next day, but right f’ing now.
There is not a single Iraqi that is worth one more American life. Iraq is total chaos. The situation is not repairable. We have unleashed the beast and it would be best for our Best and Brightest to pull back and deal with the consequences.
The Iraqi Civil War will proceed with us or without us. The only difference is that our men and women will die if we stay.
That miserable AWOL coward Bush has left our men and women in harm’s way to satisfy his stated desire to be a war president.
No more – not one more American should die for this lost cause. The left predicted that this would be the result. Civil war was inevitable to anyone that bothered to take a minute to research the subject. All of this could have been avoided – except Bush had a messianic complex that he was going to be a great war hero.
Just as was the case in Vietnam, it is time to pull out before we ask another American to die.
To Hell with Iraq – the cause was lost before it started – now is the time to cut our loses and save our men and women in the Armed Forces.
We owe them that much.
Tell me where, in the Constitution of the United States, does it say that the blood and treasure of the American citizenry is to be used to intervene in the affairs of a foreign nation?
Saddam was a brutal and toothless dictator – his removal from office was not worth the life of a single American.
The American Armed Forces should only be used for the immediate protection of the American people.
We are not the world’s policeman. We have enough issues to deal with on our own soil. Our men and women and our treasure should be used only for our benefit, not some two bit sandbox in the Middle East.
We were attacked on 9/11 and it was absolutely right for us to attack al Qaeda’s homeland, Afghanistan. We should have finished the job and ensured our safety. Instead we allowed Bush and Cheney to con us into believing that Iraq was some how part of the War on Terror(ists.)
Not only should Bush and Cheney be impeached and removed from office, but they should be turned over to the International Court for trial for war crimes.
God help us if we continue to buy the bill of goods that Bush is selling.
America needs to reclaim her greatness – at home, where it belongs.
JM,”" How do you establish long-term “Military Control” when the “enemy” doesn’t wear uniforms?
“Where would we get 400,000 troops for “post-war administration”?”"
Posted by: cosmos | November 26, 2006 at 12:14 PM=================I dunno, you could start by reading the sentence that followed I wrote in the post:
“Of course, that would probably not be possible due to size of the small force in place in Iraq.”
Reading is fun, especially when you don’t skip sentences.
So, JM, how do you “win” in Iraq and how do you define “victory.”
The Iraqi’s have shown that they are much more interested in civil war than they are in any sort of democracy, so what do you do now?
Maliki is most likely formenting as much violence as he is preventing, so basically the “hope” for democracy has been lost, so what do you do now?
Five more years? Ten more years? Vietnam redeaux?
“With that said, Democracy must be wanted by the people of the country and on their own terms. To force Democracy just doesn’t work.”
Posted by: JM | November 26, 2006 at 11:32 AM
So, JM, do we pull out now, since it is obvious that the Iraqi’s have no interest in democracy – or do we “adapt and win” or “stay the course” or whatever new slogan Bush comes up with?
My thought – to hell with Iraq, pull out tomorrow and deal with the consquences from a safe distance.
The big failure in Bush’s adventure has been the total refusal to face the aftermath. Bushco seemed to believe that their boy Chalabi would become their new Saddam. They were told that would not work but they refused to listen. They were also warned NOT to completely destroy the power structure but rather to try to use it to our advantage. Again, they refused to listen to advice. Now we are stuck in a quagmire. I think that of a Saddam-style strongman were to take over and pacify the country, no matter how bloody, we would call it a victory. In other words, a return to the ’status quo ante’ would be considered good. And at what cost …
In fact, what has happened is that Iran and Syria have been strengthened significantly at our expense. AlQuada has been strenghthened as we have given them wonderful recruiting tools. And America has been weakened, particularly in the Middle East.
A saying to live by -Raise expectations will always bring about disappointments.
Ken, I never meant to imply that you’re a hypocrite, I have no reason to say that. I’m just saying that I don’t think Nathan is one because he’s doing what he believes in.Nathan, many think that disabling the Iraqi army was one of the biggest mistakes we made. Not only did it throw a lot of men out of work and left them with no income, it fueled the insurgency as a result of the resentment. They could have been won over and retrained, which would have left us in a better position because it would have demonstrated to the Iraqis that we were sincere in working with them.
Mary,”They could have been won over”???
How? With love and tenderness??
How about “Expectations are nothing but premeditated resentments”?
Maybe with opportuntiy to be a part of the transition and future in Iraq.Put yourself in their shoes, what would you have done in their situation?
Golfer – most of the Iraqi trops were ordinary Privates. I don’t think anyone here was advocating keeping the generals.
Face it; BushDaBum has totally FUBARed it.
Hey Mary-If you could have thrown in a few more would haves in your post we should have reason to think that maybe you could have something other than a I think we should have done something different than what we have already done already.
still waiting…
“Maybe with opportuntiy to be a part of the transition and future in Iraq.”
How?
Huie,I don’t think Bush FUBARed it. How would you have done it differently?
Leaving it alone in the first place jumps to mind.
I think most of us agree that things should have been done differently in Iraq. Giving the army a chance to keep their jobs and serve with us would have been more effective than setting a bunch of armed unemployed men loose to join the insurgency. How well has NOT engaging them worked?
We could have doubled, even tripled their pay to work with us, money is a powerful persuader.
Fleetwood….what?
Bottom line, folks. How the hell are you going to train illiterates? It ain’t gonna’ happen. These people are dumber than the rocks they are hiding behind. (Albeit, I have to admit that somehow we trained John Kerry, or did he just get a commission because he had a degree ?) It isn’t going to work. The people in the Iraqi army are not rocket scientists. The smart ones all live here, or dead …. and they’re not going back. WE have the best trained, best educated military in the world. THEY don’t, and no amount of training is going to change that. If civil war is inevitable, and history backs up that it is, so be it. What is important that one more American does not die in some “pissing in the wind” contest.
golfer – do you really believe this has been a success? Is Iraq better off today than under Saddam?
Yes, your boy has definitely screwed it up. BIG TIME.
6046 – these guys ain’t dumb; if they were their resistence would not be as successful as it has been. Literacy in Iraq is actually rather high. The problem is that they will not fight FOR THE USA.
MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!
I think you underestimate the Iraqs, the same way Bush&Co did. I have to hand it to them when it comes to persistance and self sacrifice.
Huie, try watching something other than CNN
And maybe you need to watch something other than Fox, Golf.
Mary,I don’t get all my information from ANY news media. I spent a good part of the weekend with a Lt. Col. who just returned from Iraq…
What does he think about it all?
Ben — You just made my point. The smart ones are gone. The dumb ones are there. If they’re not fighting for us or with us, why the hell are we there ?? Get out now.
rm6046, I think it’s too late. We’re stuck there and the outcome isn’t going to be anything close to what we wanted. Leaving now will just insure there is a bloodbath after we’re gone. How fair is that to the Iraqis? We turned their whole country upside down, then we just abandon them?Talk about chickens**t!I agree this war was a huge mistake, but now we need to at least try to repair the damage we caused.
Who the hell cares what the Iraqi’s think at this point – we need to get the f’ out. No (ten thousand) Iraqi(s) are/is worth one more American life.
Not one – no more – not again.
Get the hell out and let the Iraqi’s proceed with their civil war.
This is our country and we would like to have it back again.
“repair the damage we caused”
Mary, I don’t know if you really know what Iraq was like before we inflicted this damage. People were routinely tortured. Castrated. Raped.
About 90% of the country is happy we’ve liberated them. Maybe 99%. But they’re still afraid that somehow Saddam will come back – OR that someone equally evil will take his place. They’re scared to stand up and fight for what they believe.
Mary — With all due respect, why do we OWE them anything ? They hate us — we’re infidels, because we don’t worship the same way they do, — and, they want to kill us all. We don’t OWE them anything. We have people right here, American citizens, who have fallen, for whatever reasons, on hard times — many of them veterans who have risked their lives for us — if we OWE anybody, we OWE them … and the VA and Social Security is screwing them every single day. If you need a cause, pick that one up !!
It would be nice to save SOMETHING out of all this mess.
The kurds in the north suffered most under Saddam.
It was Bush the 1st that left them to Saddams mercies. That after he promised them help and safety!
The no fly zones put an end to that and the kurds have been largely independent and self sufficient since long before the invasion. Maybe we can save them at least.
I just think it’s pretty unfair and awfully arrogant of us to devastate their country and then run away.Golf, I don’t think that “90, maybe 99%” of the Iraqis are glad we “liberated” them, and I don’t think they are better off now than they were before we invaded. I would imagine that they are still routinely tortured, castrated, and raped, by their own and unfortunately now by some of OUR soldiers as well.I think they mostly want what we want, to live and work in peace and raise their families without fear of getting blown apart if they venture out of their homes.We are so arrogant as Americans, to think we have the right to tell others how to live and manipulate their governments accordingly to our whim.In the long run, we’re the ones who will pay the price for our arrogance.
rm6046, wouldn’t you hate someone who devastated your country and your way of life, or do you think they should be grateful for what we’ve done to them?
Goofytesticles, you sound So totally ridiculous right now. “I spent a weekend with a lt col.” Yeah I have friends who fought/are fighting in Iraq too, and they all say different things!
The one thing NONE of them have said is that 90% of Iraqis want them there. NOT ONE.
90-99% are happy that we are there? Really? ALL of the stats say otherwise- and I DARE you to show a stat that backs your statement up. If it were really true that we had the support of 90-99%, I promise we wouldn’t be in the position we are right now.
I’ll give you that. The Kurds have suffered greatly, and we “sold them out”. And we shouldn’t make promises we don’t intend to keep. But, will we ever be successful solving the world’s problems before we have solved our own at home ?? Who the hell do we think we are ?? But, the question is, what do we do TODAY, because what happened 15 years ago is yesterdays’ headlines. I could be the greatest professional football coach in the history world if I could do it on Monday morning. Or, to quote Don Merideth, “If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, it would be Christmas everyday !!!”
golfer – I rarely watch CNN. You need to quit watching only FAUX.
hehe.
I always get a good laugh when PeeMom tells me what I “need”. And it’s no different with you, Huie.
Mary — Have you realized that you avoided my question completely … and not very skillfully, at that ???
“About 90% of the country is happy we’ve liberated them. Maybe 99%”
Then why arewe and our 200,000 or so ARI having so much trouble handling a few thousand “dead-enders” who are in their “last throes”?
Sorry, goofnuts, it don’t wash.
well, goof, if you didn’t try to tell me what I need I wouldn’t have mentioned it. The difference is, mine is based on truth. Your is based in fantasy.
It’s very typical of liberals to focus on meaningless (and severely biased) polls.
As I said, these Iraqis are scared. They’re intimidated. It’s not like one can pick up a phone and call 1000 people to get a decent survey. And when they’re questioned in person, they give the answer least likely to get their town blown up.
But, you simpletons just keep right on believing what you see on AC2020 or whatever CNN is showing tonight.
BTHuie@wichita.edu,
Do you teach? If so, I certainly hope you instruct your students to be more observant than their instructor.
Not any place on this thread or any other have I told you what you “need” to do.
We could start by engaging the relgious leaders over there, they have a lot of influence in a society based on religion, and try twisting the arms of the Sunni and Sheite leaders to come to some sort of compromise. Maybe even breaking them up into their own territories, like the Kurds. There are no easy or quick solutions to this, but trying to pound them over the head until they submit isn’t going to work, either.
I love it whar goofynuts calls someone a simpleton when he believes everything he sees on FAUX or hears from dopehead Rush. Well, based on his comments I still propose we bring our troops home. After all, since things are going so wonderfully the ARI can take over with the support of 99% of the country. They will quickly dispatch the ‘dead-enders’ in their ‘last throes.’
By the way goof – I didn’t get those terms from CNN or whatever, I got them directly from Rumsfeld.
Golfer: How much time have YOU spent in Iraq ?
“Huie, try watching something other than CNN
Posted by: KSGolfnut | November 26, 2006 at 06:54 PM ”
How about you “TRY” to be less of a moron?
Anonnymous goofball – I simply extrapolated a bit from “try watching something other than CNN” as indicating that you thought I needed to.
Anonnymous goofball – I simply extrapolated a bit from “try watching something other than CNN” as indicating that you thought I needed to.
“About 90% of the country is happy we’ve liberated them.”
Oh, bullshit! I have no idea where that number came from, but if 90% are happy, then they have a hell of a way of showing it.
The bottom line is: Bush has started a civil war in a foreign country and now the SOB expects our young women and men to pay for it.
The Iraqi’s don’t want us there. The American people don’t want us there. Most of the world doesn’t want us there.
So why the hell are we there?
Thanks, Mary — you still missed the question ????????
I think that Rush, O’Reilly, Hannity et.al. should orbanize batallions of true believers to go over there and put their lives on the linr for their wonderful adventure. I’m sure goofynuts would be first in line!
I think that Rush, O’Reilly, Hannity et.al. should orbanize batallions of true believers to go over there and put their lives on the linr for their wonderful adventure. I’m sure goofynuts would be first in line!
I think goofball is bucking to be the new Paul.
This is good. I need a new verbal punching bag.
Hey goofball look around. rm is no lib. HE gets what is going on.
It is very easy for you goofball to paint a rosy picture that you have absolutely NO stake in.
Thanks, J.R. I’ve been accused of a lot of things, but “the new Paul” sure ain’t one of them. And “lib” ? That’s incredible ! I’m truly LMAO !!
Why not quit with the insults and try discussing solutions for a change.Golfnut, WHAT would YOU do with Iraq?rm6046, Do you mean what do I think we owe the Iraqis? I think we owe it to them not to abandon them when we started the whole mess in the first place. Does that answer your question, or am I not understanding you?
And I’m still waiting for Mary to answer the question. I know that you didn’t accuse me of being the “new Paul”, I’m just astounded that anybody whould even think of that, Also, I’ve been out-of-town for a few days.she ever surfaced ? He hasn’t answered any of my questions either !
Thanks Mary. The question is “What do we OWE our own?” Perhaps, I didn’t make it clear enough for you. I’m sorry for that. Now, do you understand the question ?
rm6046…What’s the question?
Whoops. Has *”he ever surfaced” ? Typing is not one of my strong points !!!
Ball is in your court, Mary !
I think the fact that we deliberately destroyed their country places us in a position of ‘owing’ the Iraqi people something. Thing is, I don’t know how we fix the mess Bush deliberately caused. What IS clear is that the present course of action ain’t working. So, we definitely need to change course.
Partition will be a horrible mess. However, it just might turn out to be less horrible than the alternatives. The costs of relocating millions of Iraqis to theor ‘zones’ will be astronomical; that is but one of the legacies of Bush’s crackhead idiocy. The fact that Iran and Syria will basically end up running “Shiistan” and “Sunnistan” is another legacy of Bush. However, Syarian and Iranian domination there is less bad than an alQuada-dominated failed state which is what Bush is creating now. These two countries are at least somewhat pragmatic; that cannot be said for alQuada.
Kurdistan is likely to be crushed – again – this time by NATO member Turkey which has made it clear that it will not tolerate an independent Kurdish state on its borders.
As for Maliki – I doubt he will last the winter.
We do not owe Iraq a GD thing! Yeah, Bush made one hell of a mess, but Americans do not owe them a thing.
The situation in Iraq can only be solved by the Iraqi’s. We can only make it worse.
Let the Iraqi’s sort out the mess – get our men and women out of there.
Then send Bush and Cheney to the International Court for war crime trials.
Amen.
rm I was pointing out goofballnuts as the new Paul not you. I just mentioned you to point out that this is not a liberal/conservative thing anymore.
WS – a question. If I come over and burn down your house do I owe you anything?
Ben — You’re probably right … unfortunately. But, then again, friend, “Shit happens”. I’m sorry … but I’m a lot sorrier about what is happening to our own. I can’t, and you can’t change what has happened and is happening. LOng before 1991, Muslims hated us, still do, always will. Bring our shildren home ! What happens, happens. It’s not our fault, and it’s not our responsibility. Save our kids — that’s important !!
Well, Ben, how much longer should we stay in Iraq?
Until one more American dies? Ten. A thousand. Ten thousand?
In Vietnam, we stayed until 58,000 died.
How much longer should we stay?
What do we owe our own? As in our vets? As in our soldiers?I think we owe it to them not to send them into harm’s way unless it’s the last resort and all other interventions have failed.I think we owe it to them to be honest about why they’re being sent into some god forsaken country to risk their lives.I think we owe it to them to take care of them to our fullest extent while they’re engaged in war. I think we owe it to them to take care of them when they return home also.I think we owe it to them to see that their benefits are never cut back in order to save the government money.Lastly, I think we should honor them and show our gratitude for the incredible sacrifice they made for our country.Does that answer your question?
Mary — Absolutly. Thank YOU ! I rest my case.
“It’s not our fault, and it’s not our responsibility.”
It IS our fault. WE decided to invade and destroy Iraq. They didn’t attack us. And not all Muslims hate us. In fact, pre-Iraq most did not hate us. WE changed that. DELIBERATELY.
That does not mean I think we should stay – FAR FROM IT. However, I don’t think we can totally absolve ourselves for the blame for what our country deliberately did.
In another part of the Middle East we should be helping remove the cluster bombs and mines we have left littering south Lebanon. Perhaps that might help our image as a country that hates all Muslims. Bush claims we support the democracy in Lebanon; why doesn’t he show it.
In Palestine we should be working to help prop up the fledgling democracy in Palestine. We should drop our opposition to peace-keepers and fact-finding in the Occupied Territories. We should actively support the “road map”.
All of the Middle East is interconnected. Bush liked to say the road to Jeruselum goes through Baghdad. He is wrong. However, I do think the road to baghdad goes through Jeruselum.
Mary – agree 100%. I would add that we might place troops (largely airmen) in harms way when we can leverage them with other troops. As an example, a few warthogs, troop transports, and choppers would enable African Union troops to take care of the Janjaweed rather quickly.
Ben — Get a grip, buddy. The Palestinians want to eradicate Israel. They have said so. The Lebonese population allowed Hezbollah to come in and take over. The Iraqi’s begged us to come take out Sadamm. Should we be involved with any of these ? I think not. And I am Jewish. I also think we, as Jews, can fight our own battles, if it comes to that. They showed that in the Six-Day War. It’s not our problem — never should have been — and never will be. Save our kids ! That’s all I’m saying.
The Iraqis “begged” us to take out Sadamm? Where did you hear that one?The fact is Sadamm’s infastructure was starting to crumble and he was losing his grip on reality. He was expending most of his energy struggling against his enemies inside his own country. There were no terrorists training camps or WMD’s. It was only a matter of time before he would have been overthrown by his own.
6046 – some Palestinians want to eradicate Israel; the majority do not. They want the two-state solution espoused by Rabin. Problem is, they see no hope for ever having freedom and liberty. So, the extremists gat the upper hand.
In Lebanon, there was no such thing as Hizbollah before Israel invaded and occupied. In effect, Israel created Hizbollah as the resistence to that occupation. Continuing to hold hundreds of Lebanese hostages after the armistice and refusing to provide maps of mine fields to international de-mining teams served to strengthen Hizbollah. Constant violations of Lebanese territorial integrity also helped Hizbollah at the expense of the pro-US Siniora government.
Other than repeating the Book of Joshua (extermination) how do you deal with millions of disenfranchised residents of “Greater Israel”? If not their own state how about democratizing Israel?
JM,
“Reading is fun, especially when you don’t skip sentences.”
I DID read your entire 11:32 AM post.
1) Your point/complaint about the too “small force” makes my troop size question 100% valid.
2) You also posted: “If it were me, I would have divided Iraq under military Governorships 3 or 4 areas and disallowed any travel between the areas without clearance.”
Do you want to claim that your “if it were me” strategy is possible with the current “small force”?Or was my question valid?
You also ignored my question re not wearing uniforms. Dodge and evade…
To Nathan and the Vets,Military Service is and will always be respected. Nam Vets may argue that point..but I certainly believe that Nam Vets are respected today. They lost in the court of public opinion due to a few bad seeds and some ill-minded Americans exploiting mistakes are reality. But, over time I feel the respect has come to them. It was a damn shame that it was ever blighted.HOWEVER – In the case of Iraq. Our troops are following orders. This is what troops do. As Americans back here on our own soil we first and foremost have a responsibility to keep our eyes on our servicemens lives. There is no doubt that President Bush made an awful and seemingly dishonest mistake. A mistake that will stain his legacy and rightfully so. We citizens have the responsibility to scream from the hilltops for one unified purpose – bring our servicemen and women home. I do not feel our troops are working for a unified purpose. I believe they are fulfilling a political purpose solely for Bush, Cheney, and Rice. The President and his fruit loops should be ashamed for ever labeling calls for withdrawal as a ‘cut & run’ plan. To acknowledge failure and to pull back our troops would be the most honorable thing GWB could ever do with his smarmy privileged frat boy life. He is not an honorable man. He is a liar.I will go out on a limb – I submit that all the Nam vets who participate in this blog would not have ever felt a lingering dissapointment had Nixon stopped the war and brought everyone home.There is no shame, no shame whatsoever in ending a mistake, in reversing a bad road, in pulling back and calling it a day.The shame is that politics and the need for a legacy would corrupt the mind of the POTUS where he actually believes only a handful of advisors, advisors who are civilians none the less, and ignores the outrage of the Generals.It seems to me that our troops are now dying because they are out patroling for insurgents. The insurgents are killing Iraqis…and are not focused on our troops. We get killed because we are chasing these assholes down. That is police work. That is not fighting a war.Look at the savage civil war that is occuring from a nation that was supposed to greet us with smiles and welcome us as liberators.Imagine, if New York, Chicago, were to have similar carnage due to fighting between the Italians and the Irish…how long do you think we would let that crap last on our own turf?These Shi’ites and Sunni’s are followers of religious leaders…and they are killing for religious-historical reasons…they are a sick lot and we have no business preaching democracy in a mental hospital.If we’re willing to let genocide and slaughter occur every minute in Darfur…then shit, let the nutso Iraqi’s go at it too. If they are truly the holy land then we are messing around with God’s will.Save our troops – Bush won’t – so we will.Nathan, please come home safely, you are a hero and your opinion is clouded by your youth and your training. Your Commander in Chief is not good for you.Jim
Impassioned and well said Jim G
Sunnis, Shittes, Camel Humpers, Dune Coons, etc., who the hell cares ???? Hezbolah, Arafatist lingerers, Blacks in the United States posing as Arabs … who the hell cares ??? A single one (or 10,000 of them ) doesn’t equal one American or Isreali life. Racist ? Yep ! Our dog ain’t in this fight — let them find out that “72 virgins does mot equal 72 pissed off Virginians”. Learn the language, Achmed !!! Good night !
KS Goof Nut is a perfect example of how Republicans want to “fight” this “war.”
They do anything it takes short of allowing Iraqi autonomy, paying for it, or fighting it themselves.
If it were so simple, but unfortunately, we’ve made our bed, now we’ll have to lay in it.The effects and consequences of our invasion won’t stop just because we choose to pull out. Islamic extremist’s ideology is based on honor and revenge. This won’t be over in our lifetime.
If this training program was effective and working, one could presume that the degree of violence wuld start abating.
Instead, it increases with frequent reports that the giulty parties are in militay/police uniform.
Until these people develop a national identity and stop thinking in terms of “I’m Achmed, a sunni/shite, a member of the dumbass tribe” ,and are able to differentiate between Church and State, Iraq will stay about where it is now, with another Saddam replacement in charge!
MISSION ACCOMPLISHED ??
rm’s racist comments sound a lot like….IAN.
hmm.
Why is it that whenever a troop says he is against the war everyone jumps on it as if it were 100 dollar bills falling from the sky.
Yet when someone like me tries to tell you what I see I am just young, my judgement is clouded, I can’t really be speaking the truth because I am not allowed to…etc?
Nathan because you say things are improving, and we absolutely and statistically don’t see that happening. We over here do NOT see the progress, and now, the right wingers in the media are also reporting that as well. I know you know this is now the LONGEST war we have ever been in. How long is long enough to do the job? And I have no confidence in our President to lead us in the right direction. Which to me is the BIGGEST problem right now.
Honestly I’m still totally on the fence on what to do with Iraq. One side says Pull out and leave- that we can’t be doing any good there and only making it worse.
The other part of me knows what will happen to those who supported us when we do leave. And the hardliners are more than likely to take over the whole country. I feel we owe it to them to fix it. At the same time, their idea of a fix might not be our idea of a fix.
Which leads me back to why the hell we got into there in the first place. This is exactly what happened when we interfered in Iran and Vietnam.
We also forget, there is another war, the MOST important one, the legitimate war over in Afghanistan. Where we actually seem to be doing the right things.
NO, sir, I do NOT want you to feel defeated right now- I wish you weren’t even on here to read this. You shouldn’t HAVE to be fighting with other Americans.
And if you feel there is shame in coming home, you’re wrong. This is not your fault. You guys are our heros. I hope that you realize we really do mean that.
What do the Iraqi people want Nathan? Find out what that is, and give it to them. If they want to split into 3 parts, by god do it.
Many of you seem to think that we are losing this war because we have a casualty rate around 1,500. As far as war goes that is nothing. End of sentence! None of us have signed up thinking that we are not going to end up going to Iraq some day. Everyone that is currently in the military signed up or reenlisted after the Iraq war. I am not saying that all is going well in Iraq, but I think the problem is the week minded people of America. We have no problem starting wars, but we do not have the guts to kill or get casualties. We are too afraid to send in more troops because we are afraid of casualties. We are afraid of ripping the guts out of our enemies because we are “civilized.” We are suppose to be winning the hearts and minds of the people, but how can we win the hearts and minds of the people when our troops are all jacked up in armor and seperated from the people by walls? People say the Iraqis don’t want us there because they are fighting us. Iraqis are fighting us but the vast majority of the people we are fighting are foreign jihadists. They keep on coming because they do not fear our might. And why should they fear our might? We don’t use it. We are too afraid of offending someone. The week minded civilians see 5 years and 1,500 dead and they start yelling that we are in a quagmire! It is despicable! Do you know what is the quickest way out of Iraq? The quickest way out of Iraq is to become more vicious with our enemies and interact more with the civilians. We need to become more aproachable to the people. Sure, in the short term our casualties will go up, but in the long run we will be saving lives. If we do not change our tactics we will lose to the tactic of death by a thousand cuts (unfortunatly partisanship and cowards will probably make us lose by the 10th cut.)Some of you other idiots think that another reason why we should get out of Iraq is because we need to support our troops. If you are a believer in this train of thought then you are a fool! Let me reiterate for all of you imbeciles! Everyone in the military at this moment signed up or reenlisted after the Iraq War. Don’t insult us by telling us that we can not decide for ourselves if we want to fight in this war or not. If you don’t agree with me it doesn’t really matter because I am attending a Service Academy. A Service Academy makes officers. For all of you anti Iraq War people that just happen to be profesionals in all things military, officers are the ones that lead their men into combat and make plans. If you do not like the way I plan on leading my men you can go cry me a river. It isn’t going to change anything but it might make you feel better. Another thing you could do is get your commision so that you can become my boss some day, but the fact is ya’ll are probably more content to sit in your comfortable chairs and mock the efforts of the brave warriors that are fighting. If you agree with how I plan on running things then you can pray that I get to the fight to lead those brave men beforthe cowards make us leave Iraq a defeated nation. If war is Hell then I plan on being the Devil!( I do not think that the people that want out of Iraq are anti-American; however, I do think they are cowardly idiots!)
Sounds like a Santiago rant to me.!?!?!
Gallopinto-Your post presupposes there is a rational reason for going into conflict in the first place- in this case there isn’t. Period.
gallop?
Just an observation here. YOU seem a little too eager for a fight. I KNOW there are people who join the military because they want to fight. Are you one of those?
Hey we don’t have to have the whole country at war in order for you to go fight. You can get yourself over there on your own if you wish.
You are also in error about the troops in this fight. They are disproportionally National guard troops who did NOT get what they bargained for.
War has costs other than the lives of the soldiers who fight them.
THIS one is going to end up costing more than a trillion dollars. MOST of us realize there are better uses for those funds.
Well, Pinto, it has been 44 months (not five years) and 2,900 deaths (not 1,500) but don’t let the facts get in the way of a good rant.
I doubt it. Parts of it make sense.
Didn’t the same thing happen to the U.S. in Viet Nam? Weren’t our politicians too afraid of the public outcry to really do what it would take to win that war as well?
Another lesson not learned.
JR,
Was there some part of the contract which the National Guard has which shows they did not get what they bargained for?
I am just curious as to what inofrmation you have. I know the contract they sign and there is nothing in it about not having to go to war.
The National Guard is part of the Dept of the Army. They go to the same schools and training.
They were trained to do a job, whether it is at war or in peace time.
JR- Nathan’s right.What’s different is the degree to which the Guard is Federalized , i.e. activated by the Federal Government, rather than being activated at the State level. That hasn’t been done in Kansas since the VN war.
“Iraqis are fighting us but the vast majority of the people we are fighting are foreign jihadists. They keep on coming because they do not fear our might.”
This is wrong on so many levels, one wonders where to begin. Foreign jihadists could not begin to account for locals cheering and jeering every time one of our helicopters goes down or a truck explodes.
As for not “fearing our might,” people who fly jets into building or turn themselves into human bombs don’t seem to fear much of anything.
Lastly, 1500 deaths is not many for a war, but it’s a lot for a stupid invasion and occupation, which is what this is.
Just because it’s not as bad as the Battle of the Bulge doesn’t mean it’s not still bad, particularly when this “war” was entirely unnecessary and serves no purpose.
A bit dated, to be sure, but the article linked below contained a citation to a study estimating that of the insurgents in Iraq, the number thereof was between 4% to 10%.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0923/dailyUpdate.html
Perhaps gallopinto has newer data to share?
Capn, VT – didn’t you know that in BushLand 4-10% is a “vast majority”?
gster- I don’t really care if there was a rational reason for going into this conflict. The fact remains that we are in a conflict, and if we lose the consequences will be very grave. Period!
JR- Yes, there are people who join the US military simply to fight. That is not my reason for joining the military, and anyone who joins the the US military simply to fight are going to be severly dissapointed. Anyone that joins the service simply to fight would be better off joining the French Foreign Legion. And why do you make it sound like a bad thing to join the military simply to fight!? Do you want pacifists fighting the war? You don’t sound like you have figured out how to work that thing upstairs called a brain.I joined the military for my country. I plan on getting into a fighting job for my honor.I would feel dishonorable if I knew that I was able to fight but I let other people fight for me because of my cowardice! I am not a college Republican!I guess you were not able to grasp why I hate cowardice and partisanship in civilians. No matter how well and fierce we fight in Iraq it will all be in vain if our leaders and tax payers lose the guts to win. I am not in error when it comes to the National guard. Let me repeat my self. Everyone that is in the military (the National Guard is part of the military)signed up or reenlisted after it became aparent that we were going to Iraq. Before I got accepted to this service academy i had enlisted in the Army. The places that the National Guardsmen sign are on the same paper as what the regular Army people sign to enlist. They were warned as much as the regular Army guys were as to what their job description was. I am well aware of the cost in civilian lives that war has. War is bad, but when it goes down we need to get down and win. They don’t say war is Hell because it is so nice. You say that you know better ways of spending our money than the trillions we are wasting? Wait a second! Doesn’t your kind say that this war is all about Oil and getting money? Maybe you guys should make up ya’lls minds. Are we killing for economic reasons or are we evil idiots wasting money? Can’t have it both ways hippie bro!
WSClark – A closer look shows me that you are right it has been 3.666666 years in Iraq instead of the 5 that I stated. When I sayed 1,500 dead I was estimating. If you want me to get precise the actuall numbers as of November 10 is 1,139 dead. You find a lot of amasing things on this thing we call the internet.
CapnAmerica- You say that might won’t work against people that are willing to blow themselves up. That is a good point. To them this is a religious war. Do you know what we should do? We should take the religion out of war. Lets look at what Pershing did. At the begining of the 1900s we were fighting extremist muslims in the philipines. Pershing drenched some bullets in pigs blood, shot 18 of those men, buried their bodies with pigs blood and body parts, and then he let one of them go tell everyone what the Americans did. Do you know what happened? Since they couldn’t be concidered martyrs anymore they quit fighting us, and we didn’t have a problem with them for about 100 years.
Nathan- do you know why they call people like us ignorant fools that don’t know what we are talking about? Because we don’t conform to their Fox, CNN, MSNBC propoganda.
Were do I get my info from? Some of the people her at the Academy actually served in Iraq. I would elaborate more but sadly I am out of time.
gllopinto – the kind of terrorism you advocate has been shown to backfire. And the number of US dead is closer to 3000, not the false 1139 you claim.
You are correct that there will be horrible consequences for Bush’s insane invasion. That is why we need to find a new direction to salvage the situation.
However,I submit that trying to use terrorism to control th population will fail. By the way, we just condemned a man to hang for that sort of thing.
Will victims of the terrorism that you advocate then want to fight FOR us?
We’ve lost around 3,000 US soldiers. To some that may seem like a small sacrifice for a war, but you need to also consider that almost 23,000 of our soldiers have been wounded, and it’s estimated that more than 100,000 Iraqis have died, approx 54,000 of them innocent civilans, the same number of American soldiers that died in Vietnam. If you’ve ever been to the Vietnam memorial, you realize what a huge loss of life that is. For what? So we could have more control over the Middle East? It amazes me how little life means to some people, to them it’s just no big deal, just the price of doing the government’s business. Talk about losing your soul.
gallop
“I really don’t care if there was a rational reason for going into this conflict.”
WOW you are gonna make one hell of an officer!
“if we lose, the consequences are going to be very grave.”
Define winning and losing. bush doesn’t seem able to.
“And why do you make it sound like a bad thing to join the military simply to fight!? Do you want pacifists fighting the war?”
Is sure as heck don’t want berserker zealots out for blood representing my nation to the worlds citizens!
“You don’t sound like you have figured out how to work that thing upstairs called a brain.”
Neither do you. You are a reactionary. You are about to prove that you are not very bright.
“I plan on getting into a fighting job for my honor”
Fighting for a cause is noble and even honorable. WHEN YOU HAVE TO. You are going LOOKING for it? Fighting is your chosen field for winning honor?
You’re new. I’ll give you a chance to answer when you have more time.
a few second thoughts on reflection.
Gallop?
I don’t mean to be unkind.
Well not yet anyway.
This is a rough forum. I wouldn’t be fair if I wasn’t hard on you.
You are in an academy? Which one?
If it is one of the military academies, you are young and chosen for your SCHOLARSHIP. You didn’t win that honor by fighting. You won it by thinking and working and negotiating.
Pinto? Santiago? Hmmmmmmmmmm, perhaps?
If Pinto is in one of OUR service academies, I would think that his writing, spelling and diction would be more in line with the few that are selected for the Academy. I would also think that his debate points would be more academic and less emotional and insulting than Pinto’s.
Those that I have known that have attended a US Service Academy have been thoughtful, well spoken individuals, not ranting partisans claiming that their civilian counterparts were cowards and imbeciles.
To obtain a commission to one of the academies, a candidate must be at or near the top of his High School class, demonstrate exceptional leadership skills and meet rigorous physical requirements.
A willingness to fight is not one of the requirements.
Not to question anyone’s truthfulness, but this story sounds a little toooooooooo convenient.
Not to be crass, but Pinto’s e-mail address is similar to Santiago’s. Also, Santiago claims to have been a military officer, circa the First Gulf War.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm……..
“Lets look at what Pershing did. At the begining of the 1900s we were fighting extremist muslims in the philipines. Pershing drenched some bullets in pigs blood, shot 18 of those men, buried their bodies with pigs blood and body parts, and then he let one of them go tell everyone what the Americans did.”
Hmmm . . . I heard this same story except it Moshe Dayan burying the terrorists in a pig’s skin.
Didn’t work then either from the looks of it.
Ben Huie- If we had 10,000 dead in Iraq I still would not think it would be time to get out. Here at the Academy they teach us that our priorities should be ship, shipmate, self. In non naval lingo this means your mission, your people, yourself. Many well meaning officers are trying to apply the lessons of Vietnam, and they take this to mean that their priorities should be shipmates, self, and then the ship. They are kind hearted, but they have not thought it through. Our leaders (President Bush, Senators, etc) have given us a mission to accomplish. If we don’t accomplish the mission everyone that has died will have died in vain. If we leave after destroying a country the few thousand dead will be a tragedy. If we are victorious 20,000 deaths will be a testament to the greatness of our country. It is not my job to rebel against the leaders when I disagree with a war. My job is to win it. If a hard core left winger becomes president and sends me to fight for the UN I don’t think it would be right for me to screw up his plans. I believe it would be my duty to accomplish my mission and then attack what I may believe to be a wrong war. Don not call this war Bush’s invasion. If you look up quotes from many of the leaders that are opposing him now you will see that they had no problem with the invasion of Iraq until after we went in. The best time to attack the legitimacy of a war is before it occurs. Bush does not have some mythological monarchal power to start wars. I also never said that I believe that we should get rough with civilians. I said that we should not hold back on our enemies. These people are not some tired Marxists in some jungles who want to see their families. These are religious fanatics who believe that to die would be a promotion. We need to put the fear of death back into them. Doing what Pershing did is not terrorism. As a side note, Abu Ghraib is NOT an example of what I am talking about. The things done in Abu Ghraib were done to terrorists as well as civilians in for questioning. What I advocate is getting more involved with the civilians, and more vicious and less “politically correct” with our enemies.
Mary Caruso- I have been to the Vietnam Wall, and I agree with you. What did they die for? They fought for the same pieces of land several different times because our leaders were trying to appease everyone. Do you know how many times we have recaptured Fallujah. It has been more than once because our leaders don’t want to offend anyone by sending in anymore troops. We had a presence in Vietnam for 20 years, so the casualty rate would not have been bad, as far as war goes, if we had won. We lost making the casualty rate a sad and embracing tragedy. I feel no sorrow for our dead enemies. They chose to oppose us, so we killed them. It is an undeniable fact that the Iraqi government supported terrorists; therefore, we were given the right to kill them to protect our people and our allies (Kuwait, Israel, etc.).
JR- You don’t need to worry about being unkind. I find free speech an exciting thing especially when it is being used by people with opposing opinions. Wining is defined by putting in place a government strong enough to support itself and help us in the war against terrorism. My academy is the Naval Academy. To tell you the truth grades were not the deciding factor in my getting into the Naval Academy. I had a 3.5, I was in the top 30%, I had an SAT of 1100, and an ACT of 24. Good, I guess, for a civilian school, but not good enough for the Academies. They sent me to the Naval Academy Prep School. I did get my congressional nomination, though. Do you know how I was able to get a nomination with my low grades? One of the retired officers who was part of the board interviewing the candidates was a retired Marine General who graduated from Annapolis, and he had fought in Iwo Jima. I told him I was going to be a combat officer. I told him I was going to be one of those Colonels that you hear about that are on the front lines. I wasn’t going to hide behind my high rank and stay in the safe areas. He told me that he felt safe knowing that there were warriors out there ready to protect this country. I was chosen because of my fighting spirit. I am not the only one here that thinks the way I do. I don’t know were you get the idea that academy students are smart pacifists. They are unashamed in letting us know that they are making us into fighters.
WS Clark- My strong wording is done on purpose. I am trying to become a Patton like orator. I plan on being a professional, modern day, military strategist, but I plan on doing it in a Patton sort of way. I may not be as great in my speech as Patton yet, but I am working on it. I don’t know who you have been talking to, but these days they like to make it very apparent to all academy wannabes that we are in a time of war. They make it a point to let you know that you are going to be in the military after school. Like I said, I don’t get why ya’ll think that they train the enlisted to be fighters, but they keep the future leaders of those fighters in a little bubble. I have been trying to find this Santiago character. Were can I find some of his writings? I want to decide for myself if he is as crazy as ya’ll claim he is. In closing I would like to leave ya’ll with part of a quote from the great General Patton:”We’ll win this war, but we’ll win it only by fighting and by showing the Germans that we’ve got more guts than they have; or ever will have. We’re not going to just shoot the sons-of-bitches, we’re going to rip out their living Goddamned guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. We’re going to murder those lousy Hun c*** s*****s by the bushel f*****g basket. War is a bloody, killing business.”
CapnAmerica
Wow, I just looked Moshe Dayan up and he seems to be quite an interesting fellow from the little I read about him. Fact remains, Pershing did what he did. I don’t know what the repercussions were for this Moshe Dayan charecter, but it did wonders for Pershing. I will look more into this Moshe Dayan charecter to see if he had any inspirational qualities.
Ok…..Truly I have no idea if this character is for real. I’ll err on the side of trusting him.
gallop? You’ve been watching too many movies.
You would also seem to be training for the wrong branch of service.
“gallopinto” and your love for Patton would seem to lead you more toward an army or marine career. The navy doesn’t offer many “into the breach” opportunities like you seem to want. John Kerry had one. It won him no lasting glory.
And no I do NOT want the leaders of the military trained to be pascifists. I want them to THINK.
Patton as a “great orator”? He had no such desire.
Read about Rommel. Here I’ll share a story about him.
Erwin Rommel was once asked by his young son to draw a picture of war based on his experiences in World War1. He drew a picture of a ruined landscape and broken horses.
Marines are part of the department of the Navy. Marine Corp officers come from the Naval Academy. I guess we have pretty much killed this horse.
gallopinto, there is nothing glorius about war or invading and destroying a country that was no threat to us.
pinto – I would add tht terrorism as you advocate invariably increases the resolve of those you would terrorize. It might seem successful for a time but after they go underground they will return to do the same unto you.
By the way, I think the Patton thing was SNOPED and found to be false.
Moshe dayan was a member of the terrorist Stern Gang that carried out the bombing of the King David hotel targeting British peace-keepers.
By the way pinto – my SAT score was over 1477.
Mary- I find serving my country the most honorable thing I could ever do despite what people like you and Kerry would say. I am reminded every day by the monotony that I go through that it is not glamorous; however, I do believe do constructive things to advance what I believe to be good is the epitome of glory. If Iraq was not a threat then why did they shoot at our planes on almost a daily basis after Desert Storm?
Ben Huie- I am impressed, academically speaking by your SAT scores, but I do not see why you believe it to be relevant to a discussion on politics. I have known people with 900s who agree with you, and I have known people with SAT scores above 1500 that agree with me.
If SNOPED means that the quote was never said, taken out of context, or proves that Patton was not a good officer then it is very obvious to me that the knowledge of history was not needed for you to obtain your score of 1477.
History has proven my battle strategies to work. You are thinking that I want to fight like the Crusaders and not like Pershing. The Crusaders poored pigs blood on the dead bodies of the innocent as well as their enemies. Pershing won the hearts and minds of the people, and poored pigs blood over the bodies of his enemies. If you knew your history you would see that Pershing’s tactics were a complete success.When the people are on your side they have no one to hide them. These vile pieces of human waste have been a problem for way too long and it is time to put the fear of death back into them. If they are unclean thay can’t be martyrs. If they can’t be martyrs then their is no point of getting killed by the Americans. My tactics have been proven to work by people like Chesty Puller, the Babe Ruth of the Marine Corps officer, while fighting the Haitians; Alexander the Great, the man who conquered the known world; and Che Guevara when he ruthlessly killed his enemies and won the hearts and minds of the campesinos. Compasion is good for the innocent, but no one ever won a war by being kind to the enemy. I would imagine that the fact that the object killing people would make you realise that war is not to be fought kindly!