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Open thread
- By Phillip Brownlee
- Posted Nov. 13, 2006 at 1:05 a.m.
- Filed under Open thread
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94 Comments
Our privileges can be no greater than our obligations. The protection of our rights can endure no longer than the performance of our responsibilities.
John F. Kennedy (U.S. president, 1917-1963)
Bob Corkins may be out, and perhaps this is best for Kansas. I really don’t know. But charter public schools represent a really good idea. I attended the highest-rated public school in the country, the University of California. It was a charter school, a chartered corporation that was managed by a board of regents, not the legislature. It was, and is, managed independently from the former normal-school regional (within a state) public universities.
People who don’t want to see an expansion of charter schools can muster no argument against them except that such schools operate independently of conventional control mechanisms, which means they threaten a loss of power for those who manage districts and traditional district-run schools. These schools were designed to serve an industrial, primarily manual-labor-employing economy. This isn’t the 21st century economy, unless one is talking about the Third World.
Kansas is, by rational analyses a quasi-Third World state, as it has always been a colonial satellite whose productive output has been directed by outsiders, which cannot create its own self-directed economy, but the problem is, the driving rule of this type of economy is profitability based upon cheap human labor. Which devalues human beings. That’s what our educational system is geared to producing. But as-competent industrial labor is available at lower cost in Asia. So the industrial-economy production migrates there.
AMERICA HELD HOSTAGE:
DAY 2125
Presidency held hostage:799 Days left.
Congress held hostage:54 Days left
Not sure of the validity of this story that has been bouncing around the internet, but true or not, it is thought provoking…
This text is from a county emergency manager out in the western part of North Dakota state after a snow storm last winter.
WEATHER BULLETIN
Up here in the Northern Plains we just recovered from a Historic event— may I even say a “Weather Event” of “Biblical Proportions” — with a historic blizzard of up to 44″ inches of snow and winds to 90 MPH that broke trees in half, knocked down utility poles, stranded hundreds of motorists in lethal snow banks, closed ALL roads, isolated scores of communities and cut power to 10’s of thousands.
FYI:
George Bush did not come.
FEMA did nothing.
No one howled for the government.
No one blamed the government.
No one even uttered an expletive on TV.
Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton did not visit.
Our Mayor’s did not blame Bush or anyone else.
Our Governor did not blame Bush or anyone else either
CNN, ABC, CBS, FOX, or NBC did not visit – or report on this category 5 snow storm nobody demanded $2,000 debit cards.
No one asked for a FEMA Trailer House.
No one looted
Nobody – I mean Nobody demanded the government do something.
Nobody expected the government to do anything either.
No Larry King, No Bill O’Rielly, No Oprah, No Chris Mathews and No Geraldo Rivera.
No Shaun Penn, No Barbara Striesand, No Hollywood types to be found.
Nope, we just melted the snow for water.
Sent out caravans of SUV’s to pluck people out of snow engulfed cars.
The truck drivers pulled people out of snow banks and didn’t ask for a penny.
Local restaurants made food, and the police and fire departments delivered it to the snow bound families..
Families took in the stranded people – total strangers.
We Fired up wood stoves, broke out coal oil lanterns or Coleman lanterns.
We put on an extra layers of clothes because up here it is “Work or Die”.
We did not wait for some affirmative action government to get us out of a mess created by being immobilized by a welfare program that trades votes for ’sittin at home’ checks.
Even though a Category “5″ blizzard of this scale has never fallen this early, we know it can happen and how to deal with it ourselves.
“In my many travels, I have noticed that once one gets north of about 48 degrees North Latitude, 90% of the world’s social problems evaporate.”
It does seem that way, at least to me.
I hope this gets passed on..
Maybe. SOME people will get the message .. The world does Not owe you a living
raptor, what is your point? Other than quoting some idiot who obviously has NO concept as to the total devastation caused by Katrina, that is.
heartlander – I have mixed feelings abut charter schools. For one thing are we diverting resources from other public schools to the charters and thereby relegating others to 2nd-rate status? Also, there seem to have been some dubious entities getting into this business.
That said, we definitely need to be thinking outside the box in dealing with education.
By the way – which campus of UC? Berkeley? (The MANGY Golden Bears) ;^)
Pharmacology of marijuana …
http://www.netscape.com/viewstory/2006/11/12/what-is-the-lethal-dose-of-marijuana/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.druglibrary.org%2Fschaffer%2Flibrary%2Fmj_overdose.htm&frame=true
According to which US Government authority you want to believe, the lethal dose of marijuana is either about one-third your body weight, or about 1,500 pounds, consumed all at once.
4. Nearly all medicines have toxic, potentially lethaleffects. But marijuana is not such a substance. There is no record inthe extensive medical literature describing a proven, documentedcannabis-induced fatality.5. This is a remarkable statement. First, the record onmarijuana encompasses 5,000 years of human experience. Second, marijuanais now used daily by enormous numbers of people throughout the world.Estimates suggest that from twenty million to fifty million Americansroutinely, albeit illegally, smoke marijuana without the benefit ofdirect medical supervision. Yet, despite this long history of use andthe extraordinarily high numbers of social smokers, there are simply nocredible medical reports to suggest that consuming marijuana has caused asingle death.
6. By contrast aspirin, a commonly used, over-the-countermedicine, causes hundreds of deaths each year.
Lame comparison raptor.
A little snowstorm does not begin to compare with a hurricane.
44 inches of snow, 90 mph winds, power out to thousands is not a “little snowstorm”. Having experienced firsthand both killer blizzards and devastating hurricanes, I know both can kill, destroy and bring life to a standstill.
The comparison is more about self reliance instead of expecting governmental handout.
“Kansas is, by rational analyses a quasi-Third World state, as it has always been a colonial satellite whose productive output has been directed by outsiders…”Posted by: heartlander | November 13, 2006 at 02:12 AM
Someone misses California eh? Want to move back there?
I guess all those Kansas third world wheat farmers and cattle producers will have to struggle along.
If you measure success with money as your goal your statements are somewhat accurate.
raptor,
And precisely which major metropolitan area of 1.3 million was hit by the blizzard?
Oh, and CF was correct about the House Majority leader: it’s going to be John Murtha of Pennsylvania.
All you Bush worshippers are going to have to get over it.
Raptor berates us for not being “uber mensch” super men unable to do things without the benefit of the nanny state.What would life be like without the nanny state? First lets take away public education, then public health, the court system. Interstate roads, consumer protections, social safety nets and social security.
Our consumer driven economy would not exist in it’s current form without these things. Take away social security that would probably move multi-generational families under one roof from there follow the money. Fewer homes more self sufficient living more like early 1900’s.
The comparison is more about self reliance instead of expecting governmental handout.Posted by: raptor | November 13, 2006 at 08:44 AM
I know what you meant raptor and there is something to be said about self-starters in the midwest U.S. as compared to New Orleans.
However, in the reality of things the scope of Katrina was much larger in damage and devastation. Snow melts and goes away. I doubt that many houses were flattened or washed out to sea in the blizzard.
The problem was with the tidal surge and that is what devastated most of that part of the U.S>
Is there a higher proportion of the New Orleans population just sitting around waiting around for a handout? Yes, I believe there is.
This is what happens in an urban/city environment. People don’t have the tools, background and or social support to get themselves back on their feet.
A large portion of New Orleans lived together separately. They haven’t developed the concept of neighbors helping neighbors or community involvement. Not all can be lumped into this category, but there is a large enough figure where there exists a static group of people unwilling or unable to help themselves.
Murtha is against gun control and strongly against abortion, so the Dems could do a lot worse for majority leader.
Outlander,
Glad our choice meets with your approval. I feel a little hurt that y’all didn’t feel the need to pander to me before making Tom Delay Majority Leader, but, as they say, it’s a new day in America.
Murtha has some “pork issues” that I’m not entirely comfortable with. But he had the courage to stand up and call bullshit on the Bush “Administration” on Iraq, thus incurring a right wing campaign of character assassination that filtered down, as I recall, to our own Hank Price, who said that Murtha had gone “soft” in his old age.
Last week JM said that electing Murtha would send (I memory serves) “exactly the wrong message.” Well, JM, to the victor go the spoils. And frankly, if it’s bipartisanship that you’re worried about, I’d say that opening shot was fired when the President resubmitted John Bolton as his nomineee for U.N. Ambassador.
**********************************
Oh, and did anybody see the Newsweek cover?!? Oh. My. God. The Bush family Oedipal drama is now playing on the cover of Newsweek, with Poppy’s men riding in to bail out Junior.
Here’s Steve Gilliard’s take:
“This is fucking pathetic. For the last time in his sad, failed life, W needs daddy to bail his ass out. And we know how that ends, with a wave, a goodbye and president Hagel sometime at the end of next year.
Cheney is going to be shoved aside. Cheney is a man who needs to be listened to, and he knows Poppy Bush will only listen for so long before blowing him off. W can protest as he likes, but he fucked up, daddy had to come onboard and present the exit path. What people forget is that when you have daddy save the day, W is soon gone from the picture.
How pathetic is it that a 60 year old man needs his daddy to save his ass. It would be funny if we hadn’t killed all those Iraqis in the process, and crippled 20k, and killed 2800 Americans.
When I said Bush had been a failure his entire life, people would argue the point. A blood-dimmed tide later, I think the point has been made. A sad little coward, who hid in his bible and his bottle, has, for the final time in his public life, had to be rescued by his father.
You think Bush has seemed off-kilter in public, you wait. He has suffered the ultimate humiliation, despite winning the presidency twice, he is a sad little loser, king of the cheetos-stained cowards, who fear a Muslim from every corner. His manhood has been disposedof like a used condom.
So, which one of his mommies will comfort him, after daddy has emasculated him one final time? Condi, Karen? My bet is Condi. Laura will be the whipping girl for this, and suffer his rage. When she realizes she could be rich for life, tabloid fodder will become frontpage news, and Laura Bush will leave her cowardly husband behind.”
http://www.stevegilliard.blogspot.com
CF,
Who cares what people on other blogs think?
What’s wrong with getting advice from a former President?
Just about every President has sought advice help. Some looked to Jimmy Carter, some Gerald Ford and yes even old ‘Tricky Dick’ was asked about advice dealing with China.
I think some Democrats need to get past the gloat along with the thrash a republican-a-day syndrome and get on with some productive thinking.
Congress as far as I know does the business of the people and not one particular party.
Posted by: CF | November 13, 2006 at 09:16 AM “Last week JM said that electing Murtha would send (I memory serves) “exactly the wrong message.” Well, JM, to the victor go the spoils.”
I don’t recall ever writing such a thing. Perhaps some troll slipped something in and I didn’t notice.
I’m sure when January rolls around , the Democratically controlled Congress will do its best to manage our Nation’s affairs.
I’m not one to throw a hissy fit whining fest forever about what one political party has done or not done.
There is not a good reason to dwell on negatives when there is so much to do.
The election is over, there are competent legislatures sitting in Washington D.C., let’s move on and a little less of the “nyah nyah” blame game.
Dear JM,
If you think the democrats will do anything the next two years other than to shore up their base to maintain power you’re nuts.
Their only eal plan is to trash a republican a day.
Hank
hmmm…
Let me put it this way, I like your inquisitive spirit, but there’s no reason for put-downs here, unless perchance you spent your formative years on The Farm, or else in one of those LA dens of debauchery. ;-)
Of course some charters are indeed dubious, including three for-profit schools that operated in Wichita for a time. Of note, the district’s superintendent (past, not current) instigated that little foible. The fact that the schools’ inventive creator’s only prior education-innovation experience was introducing TV commercials to classes should have been a red flag.
Mass compulsory public education originated as an idea that was experimentally tested and then promulgated worldwide, as a foundational resource for an industrial economy. As our economy is undergoing dramatic changes, we need schools to track–really anticipate–these changes.
We need to experiment. We need to realize that it is unlikely that any specific universal, large-scale-coherent scheme will work, but rather, diverse ideas and educational models should be tested in various states and communities.
One of my children, currently working at NASA Langley, forwarded an NY Times article about a failed demand by the Seattle Sonics’ owners for local taxpayers to pay for a new arena, under threat of relocation. Seattlites decided they didn’t need a mediocre basketball team subsidized by the public to feel good about themselves anymore. Seattle isn’t the same city it was when the Sonics came to town thirtysomething years ago.
The new team owners in OKC may move the team there. They’ve already got a nice, modern arena, and the Katrina-displaced New Orleans Hornets were well-received last year.
Wichita is going to get an arena.
I bring this up in because Seattle has been dramatically evolving from a heavy-industry city, into a 21st-century postindustrial, knowledge-based economy.
It’s not that a lot of people don’t like sports there, it’s that most Seattlites don’t think public investment in a very expensive new professional sports/mass entertainment facility is a wise use of limited funds. (Moreover, Seattlites’ historic penchant for engaging in participatory, rather than spectator sports, has mushroomed. Why watch some guys run around and throw a ball into a basket, when you can go biking, hiking, running, skiing, sailing, fishing and hunting?)
Meanwhile, the University of Washington is being extremely heavily invested in, and is rising to the top ranks in research and tertiary education.
Seattlites are trying to figure out how to redesign K-12 education for the new economy. That’s a tough nut to crack. But they’ll devise some practicable solutions.
For example, they understand that for their 21st century economy, tertiary education will be necessary for a far larger percentage of their young populace than was the case a generation ago. They also understand that too much money and human-teaching resources are being inefficiently expended in post-high-school remediation.
They recognize that there is a severe disconnect between K-12 and tertiary education, because the K-12 system was designed for an industrial economy in which the great majority of students could get jobs out of high school that enabled them to be members of the middle class. Seattle’s leaders understand that K-12 has to be fundamentally reengineered into a college-preparatory system for most students, because Seattle’s middle-class jobs of the future will require a college education, and increasingly, graduate degrees as well.
This, BTW does not imply that charter schools will be quintessentially key for Seattle’s K-12 transformation, but the transformation will require new thinking that the old system’s governors are incapable of exercising. They once did a great job, but the mission is now very different, and for anyone who has done something, and done it well for 30 years, it is very, very difficult to admit that what he or she knows is becoming obsolete and irrelevent, it is especially difficult to develop a fresh perspective, and for that matter, who wants to work that hard to redesign a system after they’ve spent so many years earning seniority benefits in the old system.
CF – great analysis. I think little boy Bush is definitely showing signs of breakdown.
JM – normally I would agree with you about taking advice but in this case Jr. Has rejected such advice so strenuously for so long that we are in a real mess. In order for him to now accept this help he has hd to become totally defeated.
Sorry, morg…I wasn’t berating anyone. It was an observation about differences in self reliance and expectations.
JM’s analysis was concise, to the point and very accurate. Yes, there are massive differences in geography, population densities, nature of disaster, etc. But the differences I was trying to highlight were the human responses. The humane aspect of people helping others rather than depending on the government.
I wasn’t berating anyone, morg. I wasn’t blaming anyone, and I wasn’t claiming anything about severity of storm or enormity of tragedy. Just a simple observation about how people in different parts of the country react. Some help each other while some wait on the government.
No need to attack…no need to get all riled up. No need to get all bent out of shape.
I just had to zap ya heart … yes, one of those LA dens of iniquity! You would refer to us as “Baby Brother”
Hank,
I would expect nothing less of the Democrats than to increase their power base. I would be disappointed if they didn’t at least try.
I do agree with the premise that to continue trashing one party over another serves no purpose other than to be divisive.
While simple trashing of the Republicans would not be useful serious inquiry into how we got into this mess is needed. We cannot look to the liars who got us into this to lead us out.
Iraq, the deficits, Afghanistan spinning out of control – all are more important to the nation than a blowjob.
JM,
Sorry if I misquoted you. I’ll do a bone dig; it was either you or SM who wrote it last week.
As for the other points, where have you been the last six years?
Would that this Administration had taken advice from former Administrations! ANY former Administration! They made an emphatic point of not doing so, and Shrub has notoriously–and famously–said that he doesn’t listen to his father for advice. This is from Bob Woodward:
“Did Mr. Bush ask his father for any advice? “I asked the president about this. And President Bush said, ‘Well, no,’ and then he got defensive about it,” says Woodward. “Then he said something that really struck me. He said of his father, ‘He is the wrong father to appeal to for advice. The wrong father to go to, to appeal to in terms of strength.’ And then he said, ‘There’s a higher Father that I appeal to.’”
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/15/60minutes/main612067.shtml
For W to now be turning to Poppy is the most stunning of stunning political and personal reversals. That’s why I included the piece from Steve Gilliard. I think he identifies the issues that are at stake, and he sees where this is headed.
I’m always amused by how Republicans try to evade accountability by claiming that now that things are different (i.e. they’re out of power), that the ‘blame game’ needs to stop. Please. We’ve had six years of ZERO Congressional oversight and ZERO accountability. The Federal Government has been the Black Box; nobody has been allowed to know what has been done, what laws have been broken, how much money has been wasted. Democracy entails accountability. It’s called being an “adult.”
Hank Price,
Haw haw haw! “If you think the democrats will do anything the next two years other than to shore up their base to maintain power you’re nuts. Their only eal plan is to trash a republican a day.”
HAW HAW HAW! Sounds mysteriously like the last twelve years of Republican leadership. Project much, Hank?
heartlander,
As a native Seattleite, there are a couple of things to add.
First, Seattle city schools are indeed wretched, but I (and the majority of Seattleites) are quite unpersuaded that charter schools are much of a response. That said, I’m all for shaking up educational bureaucracies.
Second, Seattle has voted for more than its share of stupid-assed stadium projects in the past. The fact that they’ve told the Sonics to take a hike has everything to do with Safeco Field, where the Mariners play. The stadium was voted down in the city. But the legislature picked up the project, dusted it off, and rammed it down the throats of Seattle voters who have to pay for something they rejected.
Wichita and Sedgwick County would do well to consider how they’re going to manage the fallout when this civic turd of an arena goes way over-budget and ends up under-utilized.
Posted by: heartlander | November 13, 2006 at 09:47 AM “Seattle’s leaders understand that K-12 has to be fundamentally reengineered into a college-preparatory system for most students, because Seattle’s middle-class jobs of the future will require a college education, and increasingly, graduate degrees as well.”
I had to get the flour sifter to sort out what you were trying to say.
I don’t disagree with a re-alignment of college prep atmosphere, just as long as it doesn’t use the European model. In the European Model (especially Germany) many are felt that doomed to a caste system of education leading to a sharp division of classes. With that said, the Germany society is better equiped to cope with that type of educational system than the U.S. is.
Um, Raptor, how many people died…how many had 44 inches of snow INSIDE their homes?
Dear rapter,
You don’t have to compare Katrina to the snow storm to make your point, You don’t even have to go as far away as Florida to compare the democrat approach to the republican appraoch. Just look at the response of the state gov. and people in Mississippi as compared to the response of the state gov. and people in Louisianna.
Hank
Posted by: CF | November 13, 2006 at 10:02 AM”As for the other points, where have you been the last six years?”
I dunno, working, playing with grandchildren and tending to terminally ill relatives. Sometimes real life gets in the way of being politically involved or outspoken.
JM,
In which case, you should be more careful about making factual assertions about recent history.
I think Raptor brings up a good point. (ok I know – time to check and see if I’m running a fever)In big metropolis cities there is no feeling of community as family. Most people don’t know their neighbors and wouldn’t help them if they did.Most rural areas there is a feeling of community as family. People are willing to help each other even if they don’t know them personally.When I lived in Kansas City I knew maybe 3 people on my block (other than kids I went to school with). When I lived in Wichita I knew 4 maybe. Now that I live in a small town I know at least half of the population. I bet KFG knows at least 85% of the people that live within 20 miles of her.When a blizzard hits or a tornado hits the community rolls up the proverbial shirtsleeves and helps each other even welcoming complete strangers into their houses because they have shelter and food and are willing to share.Granted Katrina was a huge natural disaster that left millions homeless and devastated but I think that if there was a community as family feeling that people would be more inclined to stay and rebuild rather than leave never to return again.
“In which case, you should be more careful about making factual assertions about recent history. “Posted by: CF | November 13, 2006 at 10:12 AM
Hmmm…I wasn’t dead, just busy. What factual assertions do you wish me to address?
Looks like “Raptor” was shoveling more than snow. From http://www.snopes.com:
On 4 October 2005, portions of Montana, the Dakotas, and Wyoming were hit by an early snowstorm that knocked out power, closed roads, and dumped up to 2 feet of snow. Some schools were closed by the storm, and thousands of power outages were reported. The National Guard was called out in North Dakota to aid the Highway Patrol in rescuing stranded motorists, of which there were hundreds.
In Dickinson, snowplows led emergency vehicles that were used to deliver fuel to a nursing home and to the Police Department to run generators during a power outage.
Sam Walker, a meteorologist with the National Weather Service in Bismarck, North Dakota, said of the storm: “It is, on our records, probably one of the earliest ones, as far as our recorded history goes, in 126, 130 years.” But that wasn’t the only surprising thing about the storm — only days before, 90 degree temperatures had been recorded in the state (e.g., 92 degrees in Bismarck on 1 October 2005).
The e-mail makes the claim of the snowbound Dakotans “No one howled for the government.” Yet in a 31 October 2005 letter to President Bush, Governor John Hoeven of North Dakota did indeed “request that you declare a major disaster for the State of North Dakota as a result of a severe winter storm/snowfall, accompanied by record-breaking snowfall, rain and high winds, that occurred on October 4-6, 2005.” Said request for official disaster status was spurred by an interest in obtaining FEMA assistance (e.g. “Additionally, eleven counties meet the criteria established by the Federal Emergency Management Agency [FEMA] ‘for near record snowfall’ and should be eligible for assistance with FEMA’s snow policy [9523.1]“).
Midwesterners hit by this storm appear to have overcome their short-lived catastrophe without federal assistance (although as of 31 October 2005, North Dakota is seeking to recoup its storm-related expenditures from the government — see the Letter to the President above). However, in comparing response to that weather-related disaster to what overwhelmed New Orleans, it needs be pointed out that the bulk of the digging out from under the snowfall and rescuing stranded motorists from snow-entombed cars fell to the state’s police and emergency service workers and the National Guard, not (as the e-mail would have it) to rugged individual citizens who hadn’t been “immobilized by a welfare program that trades votes for ’sittin at home’ checks.” The nature and severity of the two disasters were different — the one could be coped with locally, but the other could not.
You can shovel snow. You can’t shovel flood water.
. . . and when you’re stuck on your roof for days, breathing in the invigorating fumes of toxic sludge, that’s about as self-reliant as you can be. You either die, or you don’t.
Which is ultimately both the moral basis and practical reality of raptor’s social-darwinist wet dream.
JM,
The one that characterized this Administration’s asking for help as something the Administration did routinely. For other Administrations, this has been routine; not for Bush II.
http://www.boston.com/news/local/connecticut/articles/2006/11/12/lieberman_refuses_to_close_door_on_switching_parties/
The most powerful person in the U.S. Senate? Maybe. Dems sure don’t want to make him mad at them.
JM, doing the business of the people would mean proceeding with the investigations ASAP.After a 7 million vote “mandate”,I would say not only is it proper,it’s historically the function of congress. It’s normal, customary,and the right thing to do.
Do ya’ still wanna’ quit the gloating and get on with it?
If that was his intention, he should have said so before the elections. It would be a big mistake to move to the Republican party.
I do think it’s time to stop gloating and get down to business. We wouldn’t want to act like those we have fought against for the last decade.
“Do ya’ still wanna’ quit the gloating and get on with it?”Posted by: TRACY | November 13, 2006 at 10:54 AM
I don’t think the “7 million mandate” as you put it wants Congress that is subpoena happy wasting millions of dollars in investigations that will only result in a few “gotchas.”
If the Congress thinks there is some sort of grand conspiracy to deceive the people of the U.S., then by all means go for it.
I doubt though the motivation for such a thing exists, it’s more about about who can hit the pinata.
In the spring floods that inundated large parts of North Dakota 4-6 years ago, federal relief was sought, and supplied. The argument that northerners are more self-reliant than southerners doesn’t hold water. (Okay, no catcalls, please.)
BTW, while disaster relief != social welfare, since the former has been gratuitously used to bash the latter, this might be of relevance:
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa006&articleID=000AF3D5-6DC9-152E-A9F183414B7F0000&ref=rss
“I don’t think the “7 million mandate” as you put it wants Congress that is subpoena happy wasting millions of dollars in investigations that will only result in a few “gotchas.”"
Like Ken Starr?
The blizzard was a “batten down the hatches and ride it out” situation; Katrina was absolute destruction. Add to that the fact that emergency services were also destroyed and that many first responders were out of the country and you really have a mess.
JM, the issue should not be “gotchas” (ala Ken Starr), but ongoing conduct by the administration. Impeachment (other than the kind we saw in 1998) will not be possible.
The Dems can start modestly, by repealing or at least amending some of the more fascist laws of recent years.
But I fully expect to spend the next 2 years yelling at them (sigh).
Good one, hmmm
“Sorry, morg…I wasn’t berating anyone. It was an observation about differences in self reliance and expectations”
Raptor you should proud of your post. Most of us come here for a little spirited debate and you provided that on a otherwise dull Monday morning.
Oh great! hmmm, did you send outlander’s link?
My fears about Lieberman are already looking possible. . .
Posted by: Rage | November 13, 2006 at 11:41 AM “JM, the issue should not be “gotchas” (ala Ken Starr), but ongoing conduct by the administration. Impeachment (other than the kind we saw in 1998) will not be possible.”
I hope not, that was just awful. Some might be surprised but I was understanding of Clinton’s dilemma on infidelity. I even wrote him a letter stating I would pray for him and not pass judgment on this single action. I told him to keep his head up and hang in there. I don’t know if he ever saw the letter, but I strongly disagreed with the impeachment process. I thought it was pathetic.
On New Orleans, and for that matter Florida, and other seaside areas of the Southeast, it may be necessary to retreat to higher ground. If we can devise ways of fending off storm forces so that the costs of repairs don’t exorbitantly burden OTHER Americans , fine. If we can’t, then people who live in the most vulnerable parts of hurricane paths need to move. If it means moving New Orleans’ people to Shreveport, or it means Floridians VISITING the seashore, rather than living on it, these are practical solutions. Or, if they want to absorb the risks and rebuilding costs themselves, that’s fine too.
“Oh great! hmmm, did you send outlander’s link?”"send”? Uhm, no, I meant “see” outlander’s link.
Sorry, folks, you know me, I don’t take much time to proofread. . .
JM,
I apologize for the misattribution. It was fleettwood who said the following regarding John Murtha:
“cf is exactly wrong with the Murtha choice. If I wanted to hurt the democrats (and I do) I would pick Murtha for you.I don’t care much for the “extreme” tag, but I would give it to him.”
Posted by: fleettwood | November 10, 2006 at 10:53 AM
And I salute your views on the Clinton impeachment. Very sensible.
MonkeyHawk,
Thank you for finding raptor’s emailed story at Snopes — they’re a good resource.
‘Snow Comparison’http://www.snopes.com/katrina/soapbox/dakota.asp
JM
I wasn’t fond of the impeachment process either. However, I must point out, as it is routinely ignored, that Clinton was NOT impeached for “getting a blowjob.” There is much misinformation out there, some of it purposeful, on this subject.
Clinton was impeached for perjury. A federal offense, and a felony, I believe (though I’m no expert on this aspect of federal law, and no, I’m not gonna look it up right now).
He lied on a deposition in a civil matter. That’s perjury. As a legal matter, that is a proper ground for impeachment. Whether it ought to be the basis of impeachment is entirely another matter; the effort was politically driven, and was not driven by any real or even perceived abuse of office. Thus, I think it was misguided and should not have been done. But they didn’t ask me.
But I want to set the record straight. Clinton was not impeached for the sex. He was impeached (but not convicted) for the federal criminal offense of perjury.
Hehehe
No Julie, you are wrong.
I know 100% of the people who live in a 20 mile radius around me.
Heheheh. And they know ME too….
There certainly might be an argument for “visit the beach, don’t live there.” Or “abandon New Orleans, move to Shreveport.” But the free market (real estate) and serious economies (the need for a Mississippi River seaport) might trump what would have to be governmental intrusion into private enterprise. Somehow I suspect that other consequences of such a “don’t make *other* Americans pay” policy might come up to bite people like “heartlander” in the butt.
You live in Tornado Alley?! Get the hell outta there! There’s a chance for an earthquake? Abandon San Francisco, Los Angeles and all points in between! There might be a volcano? Make Hawaii off-limits to everybody!
Here’s why I’m a Liberal and here’s why it’s sometimes not easy to be a Liberal:
There are virtually no issues facing us which do not have connections and implications to ideological logic. Is *your* land *your* land to do with what you want? Sure, I’ll buy that. But as soon as you drop raw sewage into “your” chunk of river, the people downstream who get their drinking water from *their* chunk of river just might have a valid issue.
If you want to ride a motorcycle without a helmet, is it any of my business? Not unless you want me to keep ambulances and EMTs and trauma centers on-call 24/7 to peel your sorry carcass off the highway and keep you alive and rehabilitate you and/or provide you with disability payments for the rest of your life if you run afoul of a pick-up truck.
Do you want my tax money to contribute to a government-sponsored Nativity Scene on the courthouse square? Fine, but will you agree to fund a statue of Buddha next to it? Is it okay if we force 3rd Graders to say, “One nation, under Allah..” two days a week when we force them to recite the flag salute? Maybe, just maybe, it’s a better idea to drop the flag salute altogether and get on with arithmetic class, ya think?
There was a (conservative) Texas governor a few years ago who argued: “If English was good enough for Jesus Christ, it’s good enough for the school childern of Texas!” That governor was a fool, of course, but still just a little more aware than the (conservative)legislator whose argument against the metric system was, “Jesus had *12* not *10* deciples!”
One reason I’m a Liberal goes back to the observation of John Stuart Mill: “Not all conservatives are stupid, but all stupid people are conservative.
cosmos – good SNOPSEing …
MonkeyHawk – the problem with your analysis is that the beach-dwellers get government subsidized insurance. I don’t; my tornado insurance is free-market.
Galveston never really became what it was prior to its big ‘cane – major activity moved inland to Houston.
GMC, your post just saved me some time in pointing out the very same thing.
As I posted sometime ago, it is my firm belief that all impeachments are political; I think the record will show, with the possible exception of Andrew Johnson, that there has been at least one action, cognizable as a crime by statute, underlying the impeachment of a federal official (no, I’m not going to look up every impeachment of federal judges, etc.); and, given the language of the Constitution itself, I believe it to be the intent of the FF that there needed to be some “high crime or misdemeanor” underlying impeachment, to ensure the inherently political nature of the action be restrained.
heartlander,In addition to not rebuilding hurricane damaged areas, we should consider the impact of a rising sea level.
There are other factors re climate change.Earlier snow melt, droughts, and higher temps have increased # and duration of forest fires — more homes destroyed. Stop building in forests?
And what would a long term drought do to Kansas’ farms, and economy?Disturbing news,’Kenya’s herdsmen are facing extinction as global warming destroys their lands ‘ http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1945770,00.html“They are dubbed the ‘climate canaries’ – the people destined to become the first victims of world climate change.” (MORE)
hmmm,
MonkeyHawk found the Snopes column debunking raptor’s email, and posted it at 10:19 AM — I only posted the link, in case anyone wanted it.
Cosmos,
Kenya’s problem with drought is shift from a hunter-gatherer society to more of an agricultureal society.
They have depleted their forests, reduced their savana lands by over grazing, dammed up water supplies and generally been terrible custodians of their own land.
My doubts to the global warming effect on Kenya is because outsiders and some Kenyas have totally blown-up a delicately balanced eco-system.
A lot of Kansas before it came agriculturally bound, was treeless . Pioneers introduced different species of plants, trees and crops. The addition of the trees have been of benefit to Kansas.
In Kenya, they are killing off their trees and you can see the results.
These kinds of stories are appearing closer and closer together
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/HK14Aa01.html
PREPARING FOR A NEW COLD WAR, Part 1A war the West can’t winBy W Joseph Stroupe
We are not concerned here with the implausible scenario of a Soviet-style collapse of the American superpower, perhaps induced at the hands of the rising East. Nor is it about the destruction of the US. Rather than thinking in such unrealistic black-and-white terms, the reader should consider whether the current US global position of dominance is at risk, not the existence of the US as a superpower.
Too many persons have become captive to thinking merely in
terms of of black and white – the US destroys Russia and/or China, or conversely, they destroy the US. Or, the US economy collapses in ruins or else it upholds its global dominance, with no consideration given to any eventuality somewhere between those two ends.
The US need not be destroyed or suffer a collapse as did the Soviet Union in order to lose its top global position. It could well come about with a sufficient and permanent loss of US global political, economic and military leverage (the ability on the ground on an ongoing basis to successfully seduce and/or otherwise compel the world’s players either to align with or else refrain from opposing US interests and goals), as the reader will see in the analysis that follows.
In regard to Hawaii, the only vulnerable area is on the south coast of the Big Island. The last eruption that decimated private land there, about 15 years ago, suddenly made land there VERY CHEAP TO BUY. Some people have said, “I’ll go for that. The cost-risk equation appeals to me. Others have said, “Not for me.” People will make decisions that they perceive to be in their own personal interests. If we remove insurance and federal bailouts, people will make different decisions than occur if they feel that somebody else will pay for their property damage, and they will win either if there is no act of God calamity, or if there is. That’s a socialistic notion. In Washington State, a lot of people–even whole communities–are thinking about relocating up-mountain. In Southern California, increasing numbers of people are saying to the ultrarich denizens of places like mudslide-prone Malibu, “You can build all the beachfront mansions you want, but don’t rely on us inlander property-insurance pool payers to bail you out anymore.”
“A lot of Kansas before it came agriculturally bound, was treeless.”
True, JM, and something I wasn’t aware of for a long time. I just assumed that trees naturally grew up along the river. Not so.
There’s a “book” in the Clearwater library that’s the diary of a woman who settled there for a short time back in the late 1870’s or early ’80’s. (Abbey Bright’s Diary) While visiting her brother, she lived in a dugout about half a mile west of the Ninnescah River on land that my uncle’s family later owned. (There are still buffalo wallows out in the pasture. My uncle remembered seeing an Indian/NA out there when he was a small boy. He was born in 1900.)
She wrote in her diary that a group of men took wagons down to Wellington (or might’ve been Winfield) to get trees to plant along the river, and she wondered what it would look like. At that time, she could see the river itself clearly from her dugout…with no trees to hide the view.
It really blew my mind. Having visited and then lived in the area most of my life, there were always lots of trees along the river. Cottonwoods, mostly. I know that seeds flow along with the river and assumed that’s how the trees got there. I’m sure that’s how they multiplied, once a few were planted, but thinking of that river with NO trees is still something I have a hard time wrapping my mind around.
I think the eastern part of the state was different though. Farming there is different, too.
From about Pratt on west, if you see a tree, assume it was planted.
Just to reiterate, the right-wing puke sending anthrax hoaxes through the mail is a frequent poster at The Free Republic.
(AP) LOS ANGELES A man was arrested and accused of mailing threatening letters laced with white powder to Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi, David Letterman and other high-profile figures, the FBI announced Sunday.
FBI agents took Chad Conrad Castagana, 39, into custody Saturday on charges of conveying false information and sending threats via the U.S. mail, the bureau said in a statement.
http://wcbstv.com/topstories/local_story_316214902.html
Looks like along with Tim McVey and Terry Nicholes, we’ve got another REPUBLICAN terrorist.
So, why don’t they send him to Gitmo?
Also makes you wonder why they can catch this guy but not the person (persons) who sent the real anthrax to liberal targets, killing some half dozen people . . .
Capn – DNA testing indicated that the anthrax used came from a US military source.
A bit more on Mr. Rove’s miscalculations:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15675318/site/newsweek/
A long, but very well written, piece on the need for Congress to exercise its oversight role, and the recent failure to do so:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/11/when_congress_checks_out_1.html
http://www.belleville.com/mld/belleville/news/state/16003425.htm
Republican report blames abortion for illegal immigrationDAVID A. LIEBAssociated PressJEFFERSON CITY, Mo. – A divisive new report from a Republican-led Missouri House committee claims abortion is partly to blame for illegal immigration by causing a shortage of American workers.
The report from the Special Committee on Immigration Reform also claims “liberal social welfare policies” have created a disincentive for Americans to work and an enticement for foreigners to cross the border illegally.
All 10 Republican committee members signed the report, but all six Democrats refused to do so. Democrats called the abortion assertion ridiculous and embarrassing.
“There’s a lot of editorial comment there that I couldn’t really stomach,” Rep. Trent Skaggs, D-Kansas City, said Monday. “To be honest, I think it’s a little delusional.”
The statements about abortion, welfare policies and a recommendation to abolish incomes taxes in favor of sales taxes all were inserted into the immigration report by the committee chairman, Rep. Ed Emery, R-Lamar.
Emery, who equates abortion to murder, defended the assertions in an interview
Well, $200,000 in fines for immigration law violations seems like a lot, but I wonder how much the company in question still saved by its illegal alien hiring:
http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/16003902.htm
JM,
Kenya’s deforestation and other unwise practices only magnify the impacts of climate change. They’ve made themselves less able to cope with longer and more severe droughts caused by CC.
The votes are finally counted!
Some of the local legislators that came down and told our County board to disallow a referendum on a Casino, got throw out of office.
Sciortino got tossed from his seat too.
To Jwink who thinks it was because of the downtown arena vote, your mistaken. People in Sciortino’s district will be closer to the downtown arena.
County isn’t going let Park City take annex the dog track either. Dee denied.
I’m for a process that takes the Library they don’t want anymore, Hyatt, the city shouldn’t own and remodeling the interior of Century II to a casino group.
It’s up to Sebelius to make proper casino licenses available.
With everything else needed fixing dowtown, I think a casino would be a plus.
So, Clinton was impeached for lying about an offense that wasn’t worth impeaching (hummer.) That’s almost as asstastic as the Scooter Libby thing about being indicted for perjury when he didn’t out Valerie Plame. Gheyness. All around. At least if Bush is impeached, it will amount to something worthwhile.
** Flash ***: At about 6 PM this Monday evening, I attended the certification of votes including the provisional votes at the historic Sedgwick County Courthouse.
Bill Gale, county election commissioner, announced to the glum faced county commissioners, that Gwen Weisheimer did indeed beat Ben “My vision is to spend your money” Sciortino. In fact, the vote spread widened after the provisional votes were counted.
Kelly Parks of Valley Center is still the winner of the district 4 county commissioner contest.
Whoa, JWink.
Now that was an upset!
I figured the provisional ballots would swing our way.
The Republicans are too well organized to need provisional ballots . . .
How about if we scrap the arena and use the money to build a casino run by the city.
Dude, talk about a revenue stream!
Nice scoop JWink. Thanks for the info!
RD:
Why Abbey Bright’s the smokin funky shiznit, I don’t rightly know. My great grandfather lived in a dugout about 500 yards from where I’m sitting, about a mile north of the Ninnescah, built a house here in 1870, and so on and so forth. His brother is the main street’s namesake, William Ross.
No busloads of school kids come out to my house to look at a small hill of dirt and watch some dude pretend to be Thomas Macredie, all dressed in period clothes. It may be the high level of poison ivy down there. Or maybe someone self-aggrandizing their family history. Mine speaks for itself, and me and mine get their nod in the Centennial Book, also on file at aforementioned library.
Just my 2 cents on a Clearwater tradition that is as lame as it is long.
Postal,
I think it’s a big thing to people because it’s a written account. I never knew about Abbey until my kids were in grade school and I tagged along on the field trip out to the dugout spot. It was interesting, especially because my family, too, lived in a dugout for a while. The first of them arrived from Germany in 1885. Yes, I think there’s even a mention of them in the Centennial Book. (I don’t have my copy handy.) I know for sure there are photos. I especially remember one of my grandmother and great-grandmother. My mother was born south of town.
There’s an even better book about the histories of the families. It has a paper cover, and the geneology is all screwed up, but it’s well worth the read for the stories that were included. None that I remember from Abbey, either. ;)
Also, it was the teacher, who now owns the land, who started the trips out to Abbey’s dugout. And she hasn’t lived there all that long. Nobody my age knew all that much when we were in school.
I mis-spoke. It was my GREAT uncle’s family (husband of my great aunt) who owned the land. I spent a lot of Christmases and Thanksgivings in the big white house on the curves as a kid, long before I ever moved to Clearwater. I never heard a word about Abbey’s diary until my kids were in school.
Postal, just for the record: Valarie Plame was a noc or non-offical cover agent. Also, novak’s column didn’t just “out” her, it destroyed an entire intelligence operation by blowing the cover company that she and other CIA agents were using. And her assignment at the time? WMD’s in Iran. btw, I’m looking forward to scooter’s trial which starts in Feb., I think.
More info about Valarie Plame by a former CIA agent, Larry Johnson.http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/7/13/04720/9340
The charges against Scooter will be dropped before the end of the year.
We now know that the adminstration had nothing to do with Valerie Plame’s “outing”.
Larry Johnson hasn’t woprked for the CIA in over 20 years. He knows nothing of Valerie’s status.
Hank
Well YOU are running pretty poor in the predictions lately hank.
Did you predict Rumsfeld Hank? Hell did anyone?
I got one for YOU.
Cheney bugs out in a few months for whatever reason.
The replacement at VP is Allen or maybe Steele.
Cheney stays. Constitutional and all.
The main reason is why would any one, especially any one that desires to have a future in politics like Allen or Steele, attach themselves to the president?
Hank
That’s bullshit, hank. We now know who ALL of the leaker’s were including Scooter Libby and Karl Rove. Yes, the White house was involved and I for one, will never let you forget it. People you voted for were involved in outing a non-offical cover CIA agent. Say it and remember it. You voted for these scumbags.
JR – Cheney resigns “for health reasons and to be with family” and Hastert takes his place.
Biotech Combany in India Supplying Jatrobha Curcas Feeds and Tissue culture Saplings of Orchids and Other Cut Flower Varietiess.
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