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Open thread
- By Phillip Brownlee
- Posted Nov. 11, 2006 at 1:05 a.m.
- Filed under Open thread
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116 Comments
I wonder how it feels to be a member of the political party who’s victory is cheared on by leaders of Al Quaeda?
“Democrats will look again at the legislation mandating 698 miles of fencing along the U.S.-Mexico border and might seek to scrap the plan altogether when they take control of Congress next year. ”
http://washingtontimes.com/national/20061110-112639-5879r.htm
Heckler, IT FEELS GREAT!How’s it feel to be a repug right now?Also I think that the fence will become a monumental joke. If we are to proceed with this fence, it will have to be part of a much larger plan involving high tech equipment and many more officers.A fence alone would just be ineffective.
AMERICA HELD HOSTAGE
DAY 2123
Presidency held hostage:801 Days left.
Congress held hostage:56 Days left.
HAVE A NICE DAY
Heckler–
That was a despicable comment and it typifies why Americans have turned away from your ilk.
“A vote for a democrat is a vote for Al Qaeda” is not politics, it’s war. You people don’t want to compete against Democrats, you want to annhilate us.
Remember, Grover Norquist who said he won’t be satisfied until Dems are content with permanent minority status. “Ask any farmer,” he said, “you’ve got all these big animals running around causing trouble and then they get fixed and they’re much happier and more managable.”
Well, the Dems weren’t content getting castrated by people like you, Heckler. We took 24 out of the 33 Senate seats at stake this year, winning 7 million more votes.
This is the first time in almost 100 years that both the House and the Senate flipped against the President’s party.
This mandate was twice as big as the one that Bush called a “mandate” when he won in 2004.
I don’t believe you or anybody else knows what makes Al Qaeda “happy,” but I know what makes the American people happy.
It’s telling G. W. Bush and his party to stick it.
Of course you’re right, Tracy.
Even the Great Wall of China didn’t work. The Mongols just bribed the guards to open the gates.
Come January, we finally get to see all the sh*t that Pat Roberts kept a lid on for six years.
It’s not gonna be pretty.
Sucks to be him.
I hope the Dems. will not go too far left, and pass the Bush immigration proposal, or they won’t be in power very long. We can not afford to grant citizenship to so many illegals who are such a fast growing minority without soon becoming the new minority ourselves. There would be broad ramifications for out children and grand children.
Good thought about living with what we voted for……………………..
While walking down the street one day a US senator is tragically hit by a truck and dies.
His soul arrives in heaven and is met by St. Peter at the entrance.
“Welcome to heaven,” says St. Peter. “Before you settle in, it seems there is a problem. We seldom see a high official around these parts, you see, so we’re not sure what to do with you.”
“No problem, just let me in,” says the man.
“Well, I’d like to, but I have orders from higher up. What we’ll do is have you spend one day in hell and one in heaven. Then you can choose where to spend eternity.”
“Really, I’ve made up my mind. I want to be in heaven,” says the senator.
“I’m sorry, but we have our rules.”
And with that, St. Peter escorts him to the elevator and he goes down, down, down to hell. The doors open and he finds himself in the middle of a green golf course. In the distance is a clubhouse and standing in front ofit are all his friends and other politicians who had worked with him.
Everyone is very happy and in evening dress. They run to greet him, shake his hand, and reminisce about the good times they had while getting rich.
They play a friendly game of golf and then dine on lobster, caviar and champagne.
Also present is the devil, who really is a very friendly guy who has a good time dancing and telling jokes. They are having such a good time that before he realizes it, it is time to go.
Everyone gives him a hearty farewell and waves while the elevator rises…
The elevator goes up, up, up and the door reopens on heaven where St. Peter is waiting for him.
“Now it’s time to visit heaven.”
So, 24 hours pass with the senator joining a group of contented souls moving from cloud to cloud, playing the harp and singing. They have a goodtime and, before he realizes it, the 24 hours have gone by and St. Peter returns.
“Well, then, you’ve spent a day in hell and another in heaven.
Now choose your eternity.”
The senator reflects for a minute, then he answers: “Well, I would never have said it before, I mean heaven has been delightful, but I think Iwould be better off in hell.”
So St. Peter escorts him to the elevator and he goes down, down, down to hell.
Now the doors of the elevator open and he’s in the middle of a barren land covered with waste and garbage.
He sees all his friends, dressed in rags, picking up the trash and putting it in black bags as more trash falls from above.
The devil comes over to him and puts his arm around his shoulder.
“I don’t understand,” stammers the senator. “Yesterday I was here and there was a golf course and clubhouse, and we ate lobster and caviar, drank champagne,and danced and had a great time. Now there’s just a wasteland full of garbage and my friends look miserable.
What happened?”
The devil looks at him, smiles and says, “Yesterday we werecampaigning……
Today you voted.”
Does this concern anyone but me? I have deep misgivings about rotation of NG troops back into Iraq (or any other war zone) so quickly. If more troops are needed, which this seems to me to say, then increase the number of active forces. Whether this consitutes a “hidden draft” I’ll leave to the readers.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/11/iraq.national.guard.ap/index.html
Glad I could get a little blood flowing this morning.
Have a great day.
Tracy
The fence a joke? They seem to like them in California, getting set to build more using state money, said to hell with the Feds.
heckler, intentionally or not, has just pointed out why the Congressional fence is a joke; California is providing funding; the Congress approved the fence, but did not provide funding for it.
Capn
Mandate? I laughing because you are so deluded.
A swing of 50,000 votes separated a Dem majority in both houses from a Rep majority in both houses. 50,000 votes out of how many tens of millions? Some mandate. But hey, go on with your bad self, happiness is a warm hallucination.
VT
You certainly may have a point about the money actually being spent the way they “said” it actually would be spent. But a Fence that actually gets built is hardly a joke….if it’s done correctly.
Heck, there ain’t no fence in the world good enough to keep out a man who is on a mission to feed and clothe his family.Wouldn’t YOU find a way through to do that? (legally or not)I hope so. I believe so.
Until conditions are such that the Mexican people are not desperate to feed themselves,very little will change.
Until the incentive to hire those escaping their miserable existence in Mexico, e.g., is removed, anything else will be doomed to failure.
No one has said it yet?
Well…..
It doesn’t feel right to say “Happy Veterans Day”
There is no shortage of folks for whom being a veteran carries little “happiness”.
But those who have served this nation in harms way voluntarily or otherwise should always ALWAYS feel pride for that service.
Today we remind them that we all are proud of them and for them.
Today we remember the dead and thank the living among those who have served in the armed forces of America.
Today let us again remember that we must always demand of our leaders the best judgement in the placement of those brave folks in harms way.
I have the priviledge of knowing a few of those folks personally. I do try and remember when a poster mentions having served. I hope I don’t miss anyone. If I do? Sing out. You’ve earned the respect of a grateful nation. Today is your day.
To Nathan,XXX,J M Walker,gster, Hank Price, Paul F Rosell, .morg , JM,
Thank you.
JR, I agree.And why do the damned bankers get the day off instead of our vets?
As a vet, I don’t want the day off; I want the people, by and through their elected representatives, to recognize and cement the benefits those who serve and have served, particularly those thrust in harm’s way, have earned. BTW, this year, Veterans’ Day being a Saturday, the bankers, by and large, would have the day off regardless. :D
A good point that I missed Vaughn. Thank you TOO for your service.
War or even the demands of peacetime service leave visible AND invisible scars. Let’s remember and support those who carry those scars not just on one day but every day.
Tracy
First of all, yes I would find a way to feed and clothe my family. And I don’t have a problem with Mexican citizens coming here to make a living or with those who wish to become citizens. But we have to have a more expeditious way of allowing those people to come here LEGALLY.
And it’s not just Mexicans and Central Americans coming here illegally to work. It’s terrorists from middle eastern nations. It’s also increasingly violent Mexican drug lords moving product and endangering L.E.O.’s and land owners on our side of the border.
And there is a damn good fence design out there modeled after something the Israeli’s use in places. Double fence, road in between, buried sensors, ditches on either side to prevent motor vehicles from crashing it. Properly built and patrolled would be very effective.
Mike Royoko, the late Chicago newspaper columnist, said that even if all you did was go through basic training, you were a vet. I agree because it is in basic that you realize, hey, I could get killed doing this shit, and once you realize that, you’ve changed, I don’t care what branch you’re in or whether it was war or peace (I was in the peacetime Army) because as they say, getting killed is an occupational hazard in the military. The balloon could go up at any time.
Gee, Joe, I think I already posted the heaven/hell joke, but with Bush as the main character. Same story, same punchline.
Oh, well.
A reminder…
http://mccluer.name/call%20to%20prayer00.html
Yes JM – Saudi Arabia hates what we stand for. Too bad the House of Bush is so closely allied with the House of Saud.
heckler,
“A swing of 50,000 votes separated a Dem majority…”
1) Ironically, Gore won by 543,816 votes in 2000. Bush ignored that, and acted like he had a mandate.
2) Who’s your source for that “50,000″ stat?
3) It’s statisically meaningless. If all the Congress races had been close, you could get 100% Dems (or R’s) with a 50K difference.
4) The change in who controls Congress is a “mandate”, as Capn pointed out. Voters were aware they could cause the change, they WANTED it, and they DID it.
Cosmos
Read it two days ago, don’t remember where, or who it was.
All they did was take the two closest Senate races, and some of the closest House races (I don’t remember how many, the minimal # it would take to swing control the other way.) and counted the total victory margin. There were numerous house races that were won by 1000 votes or less. Couple of the Senate races were by just a few thousand votes. The total added up to about 50,000.
Yes as a practical matter it’s rather meaningless, but it does illustrate that this wasnt some kind of earth shaking occurence, especially in light of all the scandal highlights and the lousy way the war in Iraq is going. Hell you guys should have picked up 50-60 seats easily.
Cosmos
Here’s the Senate part of the equation.
Web in Virginia won with a 7,231-vote margin – Half of it is 3,615. In Montana, Jon Tester won with a 2,847 margin – half of it is 1,423.
Spin away Heckler if it makes you feel any better.
Bottom line. The GOP lost.
Thanks for your sacrifices, vets.
****
Even if the victory margins were small, the fact that they were so broad-based (not even the South was completely untouched) does not bode well for the GOP.
That said, the Dems are positively famous for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. It’s up to us–the people–to ensure they get it right, and do right.
The work has just begun.
Heckler – all those margins are a Hell of a lot more than Bush won by in 2000 – in fact more American Citizens voted for Gore than for Bush. That didn’t stop Bush from claiming a mandate!
Rage
You want to keep that majority?
Don’t raise taxes.
Don’t try to take anyones guns.
Secure the border.
Follow those simple steps and you’ve got it.
But I have nearly absolute faith that the moonbats on the left will hose things up for you.
Ben
I know, I know, I’m just having a good time yanking everyones chain.
“Yes JM – Saudi Arabia hates what we stand for. Too bad the House of Bush is so closely allied with the House of Saud.” Posted by: Ben Huie | November 11, 2006 at 12:36 PM
Wow Ben…
Guess if the movie would have been on cornflakes you would have tied that to Bush as well.
No JM, I would not have. I don’t know of any strong connections between cornflakes and the Bush family. Also, cornflakes had nothing to do with 9/11.
heckler,
Thanks for the Nov 11 Wash Times link — I didn’t know that Homeland Security had an unacceptable level of vacancies in the senior ranks.Hopefully the Dems can fix that next year.
Oct 6, 2006′In Border Fence’s Path, Congressional Roadblocks’http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/05/AR2006100501935.html
‘What a Mandate! Popular Vote For Senate Was 55%-43% Democratic’http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rj-eskow/what-a-mandate-popular-_b_33882.html
cosmos
And popular vote for the Senate is meaningfull how?
There’s a reason we are a Republic, not a Democracy.
Cosmos
I’ve read the Post article on the fence. When it comes to illegal immigration there’s plenty of reason to be mad at members of Both parties.
” To Nathan,XXX,J M Walker,gster, Hank Price, Paul F Rosell, .morg , JM,
Thank you.”Posted by: J R | November 11, 2006 at 11:12 AM
Appreciate it J R.
You may not believe this, but you’re only the second person since I retired 17 years ago that has thanked me for my military service.
The other was a gate guard at Fort Riley, when they would check ID cards they would say, “Thank you for your service.” and wave you on to pass through the gate.
“Don’t raise taxes.”
Then tell this administration and the last how many republican presidents not to put the country in debt. Or do you not pay off your debts?
So taxes aren’t raised. What happens then? Your choice seems to be the selling of America, or your kids, grandkids, and great-grandkids will be paying it off. How many generations do YOU want to have to work at paying off the current ENOURMOUS, RECORD-BREAKING debt?
Maybe next time you won’t be so all fired up to invade and occupy a sovereign country with very little help from allies.
“Don’t try to take anyones guns.”
Nobody wants your damn guns.
“Secure the border.”
IIRC, it’s already on the Democrats’ list of things to do.
Did anyone ever think that if the law regarding illegal immigrants had been upheld and acted upon, this wouldn’t even be an issue. The Repubs are as guilty of this as the Dems.
Nine trillion dollars – that is the current national debt. Of that figure, approximately eight trillion of that figure was generated under Republican administrations.
I would like to know just how the hell they plan on paying the tab.
At the rate we are going, hell will be a mighty cold place before the debt is paid.
Quote of the Day:
“Why does the protagonist of Darkness at Noon, a loyal Bolshevik who has been arrested for treason to the Communist state, finally accept and embrace his own execution? His loyalty to the cause and to the Leader trumps all other considerations,, including the fact of his personal innocence. In your words, “Those who are possessed by evil, cannot resist to a larger and more brutal evil, and always finish praising that bigger evil.”And this also could be seen as describing the psychology of Western liberals who are willing to let themselves be destroyed by Islam and the Third-Worldization generally. They may be personally innocent from a leftist point of view, but the destructive evil to which they have given their minds and hearts demands their destruction, and, in the end, because of their loyalty to that evil, it is a price they are glad to pay.” Lawrence Auster
Viva La Revolucion Blanco!!
Someone tell me how they plan to pay for this deficit if they DON’T raise taxes? Will someone explain to me how that works?
It’s simple p-mom. They expect DEMOCRATS to pay their debts, then they will complain about taxes when they do.
Republicans = deadbeat debtors
RD
OK let me add- cut spending. Bush spent money like a drunken Democrat. You guys need to fix it. And raising taxes isnt the answer. You’ll just slow down the economy. Note that tax revenues are at an all time high I believe. That didn’t happen by raising taxes.
RD
I should add, I havent looked up what tax revenues are. I just remember that we set records for one day revenues at the end of some quarters for business taxes. I could be wrong overall. I need to study up on that.
Never wage a land war in Asia.
When will we ever learn?
Hillary goes conservative on immigration
By Charles HurtTHE WASHINGTON TIMES
http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20041213-124920-6151r.htm
Pelosi on Illegal Immigration:
Between now and Nov. 7, this page will be highlighting the national security consequences of electing Democratic majorities in Congress. In this editorial, we focus on illegal immigration.While the Senate Republicans are divided on immigration, that is not the case in the House: Republicans overwhelmingly favor an enforcement/national security-first approach, and House Democrats, whose leadership on immigration matters includes Rep. Nancy Pelosi of California (who would become Speaker of the House next year if Democrats gain a majority) and Rep. John Conyers of Michigan (who is in line to become chairman of the House Judiciary Committee) are strong advocates of expanding rights for illegal aliens.If it had not been for the fact that House Republicans, led by Judiciary Committee Chairman Jim Sensenbrenner, stood firm, Senate Democrats would have succeeded in blocking passage last year of the Real ID Act. That legislation placed particular emphasis on ensuring the integrity of state-issued drivers licenses to prevent a repeat of the September 11 terrorist attacks, in which illegals used fraudulently obtained licenses to board airplanes. The measure also included provisions requiring that a drivers license expire when an aliens’s visa expires and tightening an asylum system that had been abused by terrorists in the past. In a Feb. 9, 2005, speech, Mr. Conyers likened the law to an effort to expel Jews from the South during the Civil War.On Dec. 16, the House of Representatives, led by Mr. Sensenbrenner, passed immigration-reform legislation (H.R. 4437) which included provisions requiring employers to verify workers’ legal status using electronic means; requiring the federal government to take custody of illegals detained by local authorities and ending the policy of “catch and release”; and barring grants to federal, state or local government agencies which enact or maintain a sanctuary policy. Unlike the Senate immigration bill passed earlier this year, the House bill contains no amnesty or guest-worker programs. On both the Real ID legislation and H.R. 4437, the overwhelming majority of Republicans supported a tough stance against illegal immigration, while the overwhelming majority of Democrats joined Mrs. Pelosi and Mr. Conyers in opposition.Few politicians can match Mrs. Pelosi’s fervor on behalf of illegals. During an October 2003 visit to Mexico, she denounced federal raids on Wal-Mart stores which employed them as a form of “terror.” The following year, after a new Mobile Patrol Group under the auspices of the Border Patrol arrested 450 illegals in a series of raids in California, Mrs. Pelosi and fellow Democratic members of Congress protested and the patrol group was disbanded.If the Democrats win the House, Mrs. Pelosi will become one of the most powerful politicians in Washington when it comes to deciding immigration policy. If Nancy Pelosi commands a majority in the House, it would eliminate the one area of the federal government where critics of open-borders policies commanded a majority.http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20060914-090751-8386r.htm
“You guys need to fix it.”
Excuse me, but would you be saying that same thing to the republicans if the democrats hadn’t taken possession of congress?
I didn’t think so.
Washington TIMES???????????
I’ll leave it at that.
RD,You must be new here, cuz I rail against the Big-Business Republicans for their complacency on our borders and their veiled amnesty otherwise known as Bush Jr’s “Guest Worker Program.” But if you think I’m going to be less critical of Democrats who opt to do nothing about securing our borders, then you got another thing comin.
“You guys need to fix it.”
Typical deadbeat Republican. We messed it up, you have to fix it. Then we will complain about it all the timewhile you do.
Republican = deadbeat debtor
Saturday, November 19, 2005The GOP fights itself on Illegal Immigration
To the rapidly expanding list of throbbing internal problems in the Republican Party, one can add, and it should really be placed near the top of the list, the dilemma of illegal immigration. And today’s Op-Ed in the Washington Post by GOP strategist and former White House official Leslie Sanchez, in which she cynically and baselessly blames the loss of the GOP Virginia gubernatorial candidate Jerry Kilgore on his fervent opposition to illegal immigration, illustrates why the GOP has been so passive and fearful when it comes to dealing with this problem.
And yet few problems are more pressing. Over the past several years, illegal immigrants have poured into the United States by the millions. The wave of illegals entering the country is steadily increasing. The people living in the border states of California, Texas, Arizona and New Mexico know this flow has to be drastically slowed and then halted. The situation is so dire in that region that the Democratic Governors of Arizona and New Mexico were forced to declare States of Emergency as a result of the flow of illegals into their states and the resulting, massive problems which it brings.
The parade of evils caused by illegal immigration is widely known, and it gets worse every day. In short, illegal immigration wreaks havoc economically, socially, and culturally; makes a mockery of the rule of law; and is disgraceful just on basic fairness grounds alone. Few people dispute this, and yet nothing is done.
The rather extreme actions against illegal immigration taken by the Democratic governors in New Mexico and Arizona illustrate that point conclusively. The notion that our nation’s laws ought to be enforced and that law-breakers should not be rewarded are not controversial ideas among most voters. The politicians of either party who show fortitude and leadership on this issue will inspire affection among this substantial and non-ideological segment of the voting population. And, not incidentally, they will have acted to alleviate one of the country’s most serious and far-reaching problems. To do so, political candidates have to reject the self-defeating and cowardly advice of the Leslie Sanchez’s of the world and take a strong, principled stance on this issue.
http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2005/11/gop-fights-itself-on-illegal.html
Ben,
Are you saying that Democrats are INCAPABLE of alleviating the problem? Then why did you put them in office then?
Democrat synonymous with “useless.”
So..where do I sign up for benefits? As a married person, I am now a minority. That should qualify me for special treatment, yes? Preferential hiring? Housing assistance? Free food and other bennies?
Of course..I will also scream profiling if I am ever stopped..after all, I am a MINORITY!!!
The economic problems facing America are structural in nature and can’t be solved simply by raising or lowering tax rates.
V.L.R.B!!
To borrow from you guys:
Nancy Pelosi,
WORST… SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE… EVER.
:)
So, how much debt does the world have in general. There are very few countries in the world have the infracture we have for as long as we have had it. Our country is large enough geographically and in resources to be self-sustaining.
How many other countries can do this?
I have a cousin who can’t get insurance until he is 21 years old. His great-great-grandfather was a general in the civil war. His grandfather was a Marine who survived a plane-crash and got shot 9 times. His uncle was a Marine. My cousin can’t get insurance until he’s 21, and his family income is too high for him to be eligible. One of his friends is an illegal immigrant from Barbados. He has insurance. The government covers this illegal immigrant’s medical bills while my cousin who is an American citizen has to pay his hospital bills and medication from his own pocket.
Is this fair?This is one of many reasons why this country sucks.
Will,
Believe it or not, I’m one of the liberals/dems on the side of doing something about illegal immigration. I also understand that any action we take will be “wrong” and “racist” to some. I’ve already been called racist by people on “my side,” but if that’s what it takes, I’m not backing down.
It’s going to take a lot more than putting up a fence that isn’t even half the size of what’s needed, if indeed a fence will work. It’s going to mean harsh punishment for employers who use illegals. We’ll have to add to the number of immigration officers, meaning more money spent. It’s going to mean checking into some of those immigration officials who “lose” the legal money paid and papers filled out, not just once but several times.
If, in fact, it’s true that “nobody wants those jobs,” then provisions for temporary workers may be the answer. Maybe if the pay was better, people here WOULD take those jobs. To be honest, I’ve heard several amounts, ranging from pitiful to at and above minimum wage. Who to believe?
Will I pitch a fit if the price of fresh vegetables and fruit goes up? I doubt it. If I want it bad enough, I’ll pay the price, just as I do with everything else.
It may take compromise on both sides, but doing nothing is getting us farther and farther into not being able to do anything.
What I would rather have happen is for those illegals who cross the border to go back and change THEIR country. It could be done.
Bad-mouthing Pelosi and anyone else will not change anything. Encourage our representatives to move wisely but quickly on this issue. Or maybe we, the people, should have our voices heard by a vote on it.
And forgive me if I’m not making sense. A 2-week sinus headache makes it hard to think (and type) straight.
“Nancy Pelosi,
WORST… SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE… EVER.”
She isn’t even in the seat, and you’ve already given her a thumbs down. That’s sad.
Will, if you think your country “sucks”, then why don’t you leave? There are 199 other countries you could choose to live in that might better serve your needs.
One more thing, Will. It’s “…if you think (fill in the blank), you’ve got another THINK coming.”
Think about it. ;)
I think having a firey Italian Democratic WOMAN in the house will clean it up!!!
Nancy Pelosi ROCKS
You can’t have it both ways. You can’t be critical of one political party and be totally oblivious to the one you belong to at the same time! Since I first came on this blog I’ve heard every imaginable criticism of how DUMB Republicans are. Well now is the time that Democrats prove how much SMARTER they are than the Republicans!!! By electing a Democrat majority in Congress, the American people have entrusted YOU with the job of good governance! If YOU fuck up, I will make damn sure to let you know!You are not above criticism!!!
Will, if you think your country “sucks”, then why don’t you leave?
Mary,You know what? You sound a lot like those “Bushbots” you despise so much! How ironic to see that you’re becoming that which you hate!
Will – I never said that. I just expect you to at least wait until the Democrats are in power before you expect tham to have fixed everything your idiot broke. And remember, they will be trying to fix his messes while he is still president. Then when they try to figure out a way to pay for his debts you will scream in pain because they have to find the money to do so. Maybe they should just send Bush’s credit card bill to all you BushBots.
So, Will, why don’t you and your idiot BushDaBum just get the Hell out of the way and give the Democrats the power to fix your mess.
well, bush and co set the bar pretty low, so I don’t think it will be very hard to set the country back on the right path…
by the way, it was the repuke party that went through the budget surplus like it was moonshine.
I really don’t think we have much to prove, we just have to clean up the mess left by shrub and co
Ben,Your fabrications about me are amusing! Please post more of your shit, I need a good laugh!
I can see pointing out the things in our country that we need to work on, but you don’t live in a country that “sucks”, Will.Yes, we have major problems right now, but we still live in the best place on earth. It’s pretty obvious that you haven’t been beyond the borders much. It’s also apparent that you’re very young or else extremely immature.
Mary,Is that all you secular-progressives have to offer? Patronizing insults? You still have yet to address your deus ex machina party as to why they keep talking about not securing our borders!
The only exception is Hillary Clinton and that’s just ONE DEMOCRAT who actually has a reasonable stance on border security!
Will, I know you are, but what am I?Grow up asshole.
Mary,You grow up! Nancy Pelosi is a big girl, she can handle criticism about her ridiculous open borders policy!
First you resort to insults and now you resort to whining, then you tell ME to GROW UP? Ha!
Best joke i’ve heard all day!
My fabrications?! I guess in your delusional world the record deficits don’t exist. I guess in your land of “Limbaugh Whites” we are not stuck in a quagmire in Iraq. I guess in your fantasy land Bush has not presided over all this mess.
Go take another big handful of Oxy, you will feel much better.
Am I whining? About what? Were we discussing Nancy Pelosi?Are you drinking again tonight? Or do you just have a hard time staying on subject? You seem to be jumping all over the place with your childish comments.
Ben,I am indeed laughing my ass off with your vain attempts at painting me into some idiot Bush supporter!!! You are getting desperate Ben! All the while I expected you to be man enough to tell your Deus ex Machina Democrat party to straighten up on the borders, but you take the easy way out and try to avoid the issue by attempting to discredit me instead!
You are too predictable!
Mary,Oh wow! You’re really different from Ben! Ben tries to paint me as some kind of BushBot, you try to paint me as an alcoholic! I guess hiding the fact that Democrats support an open borders policy is more difficult than I expected! I can smell your desperation!
Will?
Are you about to go into full blown meltdown …..again?
Talk about sour grapes! Get over it, Will, WE won.
Oh great! JR is here! Now we can expect some big speech about blogging ettiquette!
:)
You’re so boring, Will….see ya later.
Mary,You just don’t get it do you?
I DONT CARE IF YOU “WON.”
You want me to give you a prize or something? Sheesh!
What I care about is that YOUR PARTY secures the borders!!!
Mary,If I’m so boring then why do you wanna “see me later?”
:)
“Deus ex Machina Democrat party”? I’m not even sure what that is. As for the border I fully expect those in charge to take action – unlike the past 6 years. Upon what do you base your claim that the Democrats wrote Bush’s open borders proposals?
I think we need to find a way to secure our borders. I’m not sure physically how to do that with the terrain involved etc. I was with some people last night who have spent time on the Arizona border and they tell me the terrain is incredible. At the same time I also think we need to have some sort of guest worker policies in place to facilitate LEGAL immigration. Also we should penalize those who hire illegals. In conjunction with that we need better ways to verify status.
A lot needs to be done. The Republicans have been in power. January the Dems will get a SHARE of power; however they still do not have the executive. The cokehead still has that. If I am not mistaken Dept Homeland Security, Border Patrol, etc are all in the Executive branch. It will take time for the investigations to get to the bottom of this mess the GOP has created.
Ben,THANK YOU for actually talking about the issues! And just a bit under a dozen posts too! Nancy Pelosi has been the most outspoken amnesty supporter for illegal aliens than possibly any other Democrat! I have posted info about it upthread if you care to look.
BTW,
Deus ex Machina
Latin: literally, “god from the machine.”
During ancient Greek tragedies, it was common for playwrights to lower a man from the ceiling by using a pulley system. This represented a god who after the major conflicts took place, would set everything right. It was the ancient Greeks’ version of a catalyst for a “happy ending.”
The reason I linked “deus ex machina” to the Democrats is because proponents of the Democrat party seem to think that Democrats will set everything right, just like the “deus ex machina” of the ancient playwrights. Now, I don’t feel that there is anything wrong with being optimistic about your political party, but believing that Democrats will “set everything right” in one fell swoop is naive.
Ben,
As for your question, how to physically secure the borders? We do and we dont. We should use multiple technologies to secure/monitor the border.
In heavily populated areas we build traditional walls with motion and inferred sensors at top. I also think we should build “demilitarized zones” in some of theses areas. Have two fences with NOTHING in between. Anything caught between would be shot at.
We also utilize those infrared beams to detect movement when someone crosses in the very rural areas. Places where the environment is so bad that most people rist life and limb to cross. When someone crosses, we “roll units” to the area and nab them. Also utilize stationary cameras tied into the same system to watch and track invaders.
I do think that anyone caught more than 3 times should be sent to Mexico’s government as international criminals and have them locked up in Mexican prisons. To quote a martin lawrence movie, “aint no one want to go to prison in Mexico.”
Will – maybe the Dems CAN set things right – IF the executive cooperates. But as long as BushDaBum is running that branch …
Remember, the border is but ONE of the problems the Republicans have created. There are also minor things like the monstrous debt and the quagmire war. These are ISSUES too; issues that I addressed way upthread.
good points Tony … gee, where have Bush and the Repukes been on this for the past six years?
Ben,I hear ya on that! I know THIS current Administration needs to get the boot, but I get skeptical when the Dems get people like Pelosi who are way too extreme on border security! Couldn’t they have found someone who is at least moderately interested in upholding our immigration laws? I would breathe easier if they did.
Will – Pelosi is only one vote. Yes, she will be a spokesperson but Speaker only has so much power – particularly when a Democrat. Unlike Republicans Democrats do not toe the line with great discipline. If she tries to push a radical agenda Part members will bolt; that is a different scenario than when Hastert had his “majority of the majority” policy.
As I think Will Rogers said “I don’t belong to an organized political party; I am a Democrat.”
U guys know whats funny. All of that technology is available commercially today. The inferred beams, are used a lot by car lots and other outdoor venues that want security. Check out the top of Rusty Eck Ford’s fences. Those little black boxes pointing down the fences. Yea, there u go. Cameras, hell, just look downtown, you will see just a few.
Close Ben..
I belong to no organized political party — I am a Democrat.–Will Rogers
Democrats have a plan to make the country safer? How come no one’s heard anything about it yet? I know! It must be a secret plan.
:)
…In the midst of all of this, the Democratic Party is preparing its shiny new 2008 position on Iraq and terror. Described in Goldberg’s New Yorker article, the political plan is centered around a new faction that calls itself the “National Security Democrats” (a term coined by that famous liberal, Richard Holbrooke) and is led by revolting hair-plug survivor Joe Biden. The position of the “National Security Democrats” is that the party should be “more open to the idea of military action, and even preemption” and that the Democrats should “try to distance themselves from the Party’s Post-Vietnam ambivalence about the projection of American power.” Additionally, the Democrats ought to reconsider their traditional stance as an opposition party and learn to embrace Republican heroes like Ronald Reagan.
“Everyone knew ‘Reagan is dangerous,’ remember?” Biden says. “He talked about freedom, and what do we do? We say it’s bad speech, dangerous speech.” Democrats, he says, “are making the same mistakes again.”
It would be easy to dismiss the Biden revival as a cheap stunt by a discredited party hack with all the national appeal of the streptococcus virus, except for one thing. Biden’s “national security” camp includes all four of the expected main contenders for the Democratic nomination—Biden himself, Hillary Clinton, Indiana senator Evan Bayh, and John Edwards. New Mexico governor Bill Richardson, another outside contender, is also a member of this camp. We are going to be hearing a lot about “National Security Democrats” in the next three years.
The Democratic party leadership’s persistent and bizarre campaign of self-condemnation and Republican bootlicking is one of those things that, on its face, makes very little logical sense. It makes cultural sense; we have come to expect that the cultural figures we call the Democrats will respond to electoral failure first by sniveling and finger-pointing, and then by puffing up their chests and telling their dates they know how to handle themselves in a bar fight. From the Republicans we expect just the opposite; beaten at the polls, they immediately start cozying up to snake-handlers and gun freaks and denouncing school lunches as socialism. It is impossible to imagine a Newt Gingrich responding, say, to LBJ’s Great Society by concocting its own expensive plan to feed the poor black man—but we fully expect that a Democrat who loses an election will suddenly start to reconsider his opposition to preemtpive invasion and Reaganomics.
We expect these things, so they strike us as logical when we see them happen. But they make no sense. A merely cynical opposition party would be emboldened by poll numbers showing majority opposition to the war to court those votes. And a moral one would seize upon news of the sort coming out of Britain to argue to not only to their own voters (who would unanimously support them in this aim), but to the country at large, that the invasion of Iraq was based upon a fallacy, illegal and impeachable.
But the Democratic leaders do neither. Instead, they tell 53 percent of the country that they are mistaken, and throw their chips in with the other 47 percent, who incidentally support the other party and are not likely to ever budge. They then go further and try to argue that fighting the war on terror requires abandoning health care, education and Social Security—an idea that, let’s face it, makes no fucking sense at all.
Franklin Roosevelt never argued anything like that, and he fought a global world war against two mighty industrial powers. But now 4000 retards in caves are going to close down the entire American school system. If that is the Democratic idea of looking “strong,” one hates to imagine what weakness would look like.
http://www.nypress.com/18/12/news&columns/taibbi.cfm
Trouble in paradise?
NATIONAL SECURITY DEMOCRATS.
Expect to hear from this faction in the next 3 years folks! I told you that Democrats AND Republicans are in reality, the same heaping pile of horse shit. They only difference is the smell!
:)
“Democrats have a plan to make the country safer? How come no one’s heard anything about it yet? I know! It must be a secret plan.”
Nothings gonna make you any safer we were spending 400 billion plus on defense and I could held up a sign that said don’t fly those planes in the building and had the same effect. Destabilizing the middle east isn’t working out to well.
Be honest if we really wanted a full blown war we would have a draft and a means to pay for it other than borrowing money from the Chinese.
PROGRESSIVE INTERNATIONALISM(???)A DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL SECURITY STRATEGYWe recognize, however, that Democrats must do more than criticize this administration’s increasingly incompetent handling of our nation’s security. That alone will do little to allay the doubts that too many Americans have about our party’s willingness or ability to pursue the tough defense and security policies today’s world demands. To re-establish our credibility on national security, Democrats must offer a positive vision that spells out how we would do a better job of keeping Americans safe and restoring America’s capacity to lead.
We begin by reaffirming the Democratic Party’s commitment to progressive internationalism — the belief that America can best defend itself by building a world safe for individual liberty and democracy. We therefore support the bold exercise of American power, not to dominate but to shape alliances and international institutions that share a common commitment to liberal values. The way to keep America safe and strong is not to impose our will on others or pursue a narrow, selfish nationalism that betrays our best values, but to lead the world toward political and economic freedom.
While some complain that the Bush administration has been too radical in recasting America’s national security strategy, we believe it has not been ambitious or imaginative enough. We need to do more, and do it smarter and better to protect our people and help shape a safer, freer world.
Progressive internationalism occupies the vital center between the neo-imperial right and the non-interventionist left, between a view that assumes that our might always makes us right and one that assumes that because America is strong it must be wrong.
Too many on the left seem incapable of taking America’s side in international disputes, reflexively oppose the use of force, and begrudge the resources required to keep our military strong. Viewing multilateralism as an end in itself, they lose sight of goals, such as fighting terrorism or ending gross human rights abuses, which sometimes require us to act — if need be outside a sometimes ineffectual United Nations. And too many adopt an anti-globalization posture that would not only erode our own prosperity but also consign billions of the world’s neediest people to grinding poverty. However troubling the Bush record, the pacifist and protectionist left offers no credible alternative.
Progressive internationalism stresses the responsibilities that come with our enormous power: to use force with restraint but not to hesitate to use it when necessary, to show what the Declaration of Independence called “a decent respect for the opinions of mankind,” to exercise leadership primarily through persuasion rather than coercion, to reduce human suffering where we can, and to create alliances and international institutions committed to upholding a decent world order. We must return to four core principles that have long defined the Democratic Party’s tradition of tough-minded internationalism:
http://www.ppionline.org/ppi_ci.cfm?contentid=252144&subsecid=900020&knlgAreaID=450004
‘IT’S TIME TO GET OVER IT’JOHN KERRY TELLS ANTIWAR MOVEMENT TO MOVE ON.
Researchers and investigative reporters are fascinated with the neoconservatives, that group of American empire peddlers who turned George W. Bush into a junkie war criminal. A similar group, the New Democrats, has been pushing its own dangerous brand of U.S. hegemony but with much less fanfare.
The leading mouthpiece for the New Democrats’ radical interventionist program could be our next president. John Kerry, the frontrunner in the quest for the Democratic Party presidential nomination, has been promoting a foreign policy perspective called “progressive internationalism.” It’s a concept concocted by establishment Democrats seeking to convince potential backers in the corporate and political world that, if installed in the White House, they would preserve U.S. power and influence around the world, but in a kinder, gentler fashion than the current administration.
In the domestic battle to captain the American empire, the neocons have in their corner the Project for a New American Century while the New Democrats have the Progressive Policy Institute. Come November, who will get your vote? Coke or Pepsi?
In fall 2000, PNAC released Rebuilding America’s Defenses: Strategy, Forces and Resources for a New Century. It’s a blueprint for “maintaining global U.S. preeminence, precluding the rise of a great power rival, and shaping the international security order in line with American principles and interests.”
In fall 2003, members of PPI joined with other tough-minded Democrats to unveil Progressive Internationalism: A Democratic National Security Strategy, a 19-page manifesto that calls for “the bold exercise of American power, not to dominate but to shape alliances and international institutions that share a common commitment to liberal values.”
The New Democrats don’t begrudge the Bush administration for invading Iraq. They take issue with the Bush administration’s strategy of refusing to invite key members of the international community to the invasion until it was too late. The neocons’ unilateralist approach, the New Democrats believe, will ultimately harm U.S. political and economic dominance around the world.
“We are confident that a new Democratic strategy, grounded in the party’s tradition of muscular internationalism, can keep Americans safer than the Republicans’ go-it-alone policy, which has alienated our natural allies and overstretched our resources,” the New Democrats say in their foreign policy manifesto. “We aim to rebuild the moral foundation of U.S. global leadership by harnessing America’s awesome power to universal values of liberal democracy. A new progressive internationalism can point the way.”
Proponents of “progressive internationalism” are a lock to control leadership positions at the State Department and key civilian posts at the Pentagon in a John Kerry administration. How do we know this? Because these New Democrats obviously ghostwrote Kerry’s campaign book, A Call to Service: My Vision for A Better America. Place the Progressive Internationalism manifesto and Kerry’s chapter on foreign policy side by side and you’ll immediately notice the similarities.
On page 40 of In A Call to Service, Kerry writes: “The time has come to renew that tradition and revive a bold vision of progressive internationalism.” What is this tradition to which Kerry refers? As he describes it, Democrats need to honor “the tough-minded strategy of international engagement and leadership forged by Wilson and Roosevelt in the two world wars and championed by Truman and Kennedy in the cold war.”
Now, turn to page 3 of the New Democrats’ manifesto. It reads:
“As Democrats, we are proud of our party’s tradition of tough-minded internationalism and strong record in defending America. Presidents Woodrow Wilson, Franklin D. Roosevelt and Harry Truman led the United States to victory in two world wars and designed the post-war international institutions that have been a cornerstone of global security and prosperity ever since. President Truman forged democratic alliances such as NATO that eventually triumphed in the Cold War. President Kennedy epitomized America’s commitment to “the survival and success of liberty.” Like the neocons, Kerry was not impressed by France’s stance against the U.S. invasion of Iraq. On page 51 of his book, he writes:
“I hope by the time you read this book that the UN has been usefully employed as a partner in the reconstruction of Iraq and that Jacque Chirac has ceased his foolish rebellion against the very idea of the Atlantic Alliance. America, which has always shown magnanimity in victory, should in turn meet repentant Europeans halfway, not ratchet up the badgering unilateralism that fed European fears in the first place.” There’s much to digest in this paragraph. Perhaps the most interesting nugget is Kerry’s statement that the United States should “meet repentant Europeans halfway.” Hmmm, John, could you elaborate on what sins the Europeans committed for which they must repent?
On page 50, Kerry details his beef with Old Europe:
“The Bush administration is by no means the only culprit in the breakdown in U.S.-UN relations over Iraq. France, Germany and Russia never supported or offered a feasible policy to verify that UN resolutions on Iraq were actually being carried out. … Our British, Spanish and Eastern European coalition allies are eager to rebuild European unity.” Throughout the foreign policy sections of the book, Kerry does his best to convince the reader that he would not run from his role as war criminal in chief if elected president.
Perhaps the most repulsive section of the book is where Kerry discusses the Vietnam War and the antiwar movement. On page 42, Kerry writes:
“I could never agree with those in the antiwar movement who dismissed our troops as war criminals or our country as the villain in the drama. That’s one reason, in fact, that I eventually parted ways with the VVAW [Vietnam Veterans Against the War] organizations and instead helped found the Vietnam Veterans of America.” If the United States was not a villain in the “drama” of the Vietnam war, then who is to blame for the million-plus Vietnamese who were killed during the 20-year period of naked U.S. aggression that ended in 1975? Surely, John, you don’t wish to blame certain communist dead-enders in Vietnam for the carnage?
On the next page, Kerry informs his reader that it’s time we stop questioning U.S. foreign policy intentions:
“As a veteran of both the Vietnam War and the Vietnam protest movement, I say to both conservative and liberal misinterpretations of that war that it’s time to get over it and recognize it as an exception, not as a ruling example, of the U.S. military engagements of the twentieth century. If those of us who carried the physical and emotional burdens of that conflict can regain perspective and move on, so can those whose involvement was vicarious or who knew nothing of the war other than ideology and legend.” This last passage is probably the most unsettling part of Kerry’s book and one that every advocate of the Anyone-But-Bush 2004 election strategy should read before heading to the polling station in November.
In this one passage, Kerry seeks to justify the millions of people slaughtered by the U.S. military and its surrogates during the twentieth century, suggests that concern about U.S. war crimes in Vietnam is no longer necessary, and dismisses the antiwar movement as the work of know-nothings.
Kerry and his comrades in the progressive internationalist movement are as gung-ho about U.S. military action as their counterparts in the White House. The only noteworthy difference between the two groups battling for power in Washington is that the neocons are willing to pursue their imperial ambitions in full view of the international community, while the progressive internationalists prefer to keep their imperial agenda hidden behind the cloak of multilateralism.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/HAN403A.html
SO WHAT DO YOU CHOOSE, DEMOCRATS?COKE OR PEPSI?
In your own words Will what would you like the USA to do?
NOW IS IT JUST ME, OR DO THE “NEW DEMOCRATS” HEADED BY JOHN KERRY SOUND STRIKINGLY SIMILAR TO THE NEOCONS?
SAME PILE O SHIT, DIFFERENT SMELL!
Jeez, I thought I was the beer drinking, pot smoking lunatic around here. With the convuluted logic displayed here, you would think that I was almost normal.
For starters, it is Bush that is the chief proponent of amnesty for illegal aliens. It wasn’t a Democratic idea – it wasn’t even an idea proposed by the Republican Congress – it was proposed and insisted upon by the lunatic-in-chief.
Secondly, the debt has to be paid sometime. The ceiling on the national debt went from five trillion to nine trillion since Bush took (stoled) office. That is not Monopoly money, boys and girls, it’s real tax dollars that our children and grandchildren will have to fork over.
Dealing with the border issue has some importance, but it certainly pales beside the other issues that face this country. We need to get out of Iraq before the effort completely destroys our military, our treasury and thousands of additional American and Iraqi lives. We need to get a handle on pork barrel spending and needless government programs. Spending has increased by over 9% per year for all six (endless) years of the Bush takeover. Spending under Clinton increased by less than 4% per year.
So much for fiscal conservatives.
A tax increase of epic proportions is inevitable. The math is very simple – no amount of economic growth will be able to overcome the massive spending spree that we have been on.
Keep in mind that the expenditures for the War on Iraq are “off-budget”, meaning that they are not part of the budget deficit calculations. Bush just requested another “off-budget” appropriation of $170 billion.
We can’t go on like this…….
Even a beer drinking, pot smoking loon like me can figure all that out.
What would I do? Well I’m not in charge .morg! So I could only give you a hypothetical answer. I would first and foremost, stop supplying weapons to the Israeli occupiers of Palestine. I would take every single soldier from Iraq and put them in Afghanistan (you know, so they can actually GET BIN LADEN!) The campaign in Afghanistan was wayy undermanned to begin with. It has been said that there are more police officers patrolling the borough of Manhattan than there are soldiers hunting for Bin Laden in Afghanistan! Outrageous? Definitely. I would stop alienating the moderate Muslims and make them feel at home in America, you know, so they won’t feel compelled to be radicalized and blow us up, and so that they would actually participate in the apprehension of jihaddists! (Common sense? Definitely.) I would get rid of the politically correct idiotic protocols of airport screeners and give them specific instructions to search travelers from “countries of interest” you know, what we really mean as people of Middle Eastern descent! (Duh!) I would file charges of war crimes to the Israeli military brass for war crimes concerning the illegal invasion of Lebanon. Oh, and in a perfect world, George W. Bush, Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney would all be in jail serving several life sentences for crimes against humanity.
That’s just a start!
The only difference between John Kerry’s New Democrats and the neocons on the Iraq war is that Kerry and the New Democrats wanted the European Union on board, while the neocons just wanted to “go it alone.” You see John Kerry and the New Democrats didn’t have any problems with INVADING IRAQ. They just wanted France and the rest of Europe on board to pay the bills!
Again, the difference between the New Democrats and the Neoconservatives are almost nonexistent! Have you even read Kerry’s book “A Call to Service: My Vision for a Better America?” Have you even read the New Democrats manifesto?
I think you will be plenty surprised!
Good morning, Will. I have to agree with you on the Israeli and Palestine issue and also focusing more on catching Bin Laden and putting him permanently out of business. Seems you do have some sense after all.Why are you so concerned about the Mexicans? They’ve been coming into this country for years, it’s nothing new. We have a much bigger crisis to deal with in Iraq right now. Personaly, I’m more worried about all our jobs getting shipped overseas to those who’ll work for 50 cents an hour. I think that does more damage to the American worker than a Mexican working in a fast food restaurant or cleaning someone’s house.
Don’t worry, Heckler… even though your fellow voterate came out as the minority in the critical elections, at least the party that is now in control of Congress is the one who actually believes in protecting the rights of the minority, even if they do not agree with their beliefs or practices. Dems seek your protection… the GOP seeks their destruction.
Postal
I guess I missed something. What are you talking about?
An extremely modest man was in the hospital for a series of tests, thelast of which had left his bodily systems extremely upset. Upon makingseveral false alarm trips to the bathroom, he decided the latest episodewas another and stayed put.†He suddenly filled his††bed with diarrhea and was embarrassed beyond hisability to remain rational. In a complete loss of composure he jumpedout of bed, gathered up the bed sheets, and threw them out the hospitalwindow.†A drunk was walking by the hospital when the sheets landed on him. Hestarted yelling, cursing, and swinging his arms violently trying to getthe unknown things off, and ended up with the soiled sheets in a tangledpile at his feet.†As the drunk stood there, unsteady on his feet, staring down at thesheets, a hospi tal security guard (barely containing his laughter) whohad watched the whole incident walked up and asked, “What the heck isgoing on here?”†The drunk, still staring down replied, “I think I just beat the shit outof a ghost.
One more time for those who might miss it elsewhere…
Priceless.
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/11/11/the-2006-election-a-comedic-roundup/
Part of me hates all this schmoozing bi-partisan crap. OUR side was not treated well these last several years. But we progressive folks are easier to work with than the neocons have been.
Still…
Part of me would like to see Nancy Pelosi take the gavel and then yield the floor to a bugler playing “Duguello”. That’d send bush a message if he were a REAL Texan.
What can i say. .
Will–
Start your own newspaper. My fingers are getting tired scrolling past your cut and paste of the encyclopedia Brittanica.
Cosmos–
Thanks for kicking Heckler’s ass. He’s entitled to his own conclusions–idiotic, in his case–but he’s not entitled to his own facts, especially when he provides no links.
But I guess that’s cause he can’t link to his butt.
According to Paul Krugman in the 10 November N Y Times commentary “Democrats took 24 or the 33 Senate seats at stake this year, winning seven million more votes than Republicans.”
But then when you’re a RepubliCON, seven million is really only a few thousand . . .
seven million is a drop in the bucket compared to China’s foreign reserves of a Trillion Dollars held in our currency. Bush will be kissing some China ass at the Asian summit.