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- By Phillip Brownlee
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79 Comments
( Loud Clapping ) Great just great your doing what the ultra rich want you to do fight amongst yourselves keep in small groups thats are easier to control so they can go on f**king all of us out of rights and money. Did you know right here in Do-Dah the state is requiring trades men to get an addtional 12 hours of education every 2 years to keep their licenses, going on the arguement that EMT’s do it B**LLS**T in commercial trades you need to know nothing its on the print you are told how to put it together, one of my former bosses told me just cause you can read a book and pass a test don’t make you a plumber, you the public like higher cost well this is going to raise the cost because some of the older guys aren’t going to do this .. this means fewer companies doing the work less competition which means it will cost you more … heres one of the funny things alsoinspectors are threatening licensed business with fines for not marking their vehicals. G*D DA*N these greedy a$$holes.
There is hardly a profession anymore that doesn’t need continuing education. 6 hours a year is a drop in the hat to what EMT’s and nurses and doctors have to have. With the changing technology, even in plumbing, it’s a good thing.
Even CNA’s have to have more hours per year than that and they make far less than plumbers.
Wasn’t crude oil about $59 yesterday? This morning it is under $56 and the price at the pump went up a dime….
Makes perfect sense to me… someone is lining their pockets.Oh.. that’s right… there’s a Holiday coming… let’s get an early start on the profits!
Anyone notice that lately Dillon’s and Kwik Shop jack their prices well before QT? It used to be the other way around!
Is hexing Dubya considered as making a threat?http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061117/ap_on_fe_st/bush_black_magic
AMERICA HELD HOSTAGE:
DAY 2127
Presidency held hostage:795 Days left.
Congress held hostage:50 Days left.
HAVE A NICE DAY.
I SEE THE MENTALLY CHALLENGED ARE UP AND AT IT EARLY TODAY.
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009246
Class StruggleAmerican workers have a chance to be heard.
BY JIM WEBBWednesday, November 15, 2006 12:01 a.m. EST
The most important–and unfortunately the least debated–issue in politics today is our society’s steady drift toward a class-based system, the likes of which we have not seen since the 19th century. America’s top tier has grown infinitely richer and more removed over the past 25 years. It is not unfair to say that they are literally living in a different country. Few among them send their children to public schools; fewer still send their loved ones to fight our wars. They own most of our stocks, making the stock market an unreliable indicator of the economic health of working people. The top 1% now takes in an astounding 16% of national income, up from 8% in 1980. The tax codes protect them, just as they protect corporate America, through a vast system of loopholes.
Incestuous corporate boards regularly approve compensation packages for chief executives and others that are out of logic’s range. As this newspaper has reported, the average CEO of a sizeable corporation makes more than $10 million a year, while the minimum wage for workers amounts to about $10,000 a year, and has not been raised in nearly a decade. When I graduated from college in the 1960s, the average CEO made 20 times what the average worker made. Today, that CEO makes 400 times as much.
In the age of globalization and outsourcing, and with a vast underground labor pool from illegal immigration, the average American worker is seeing a different life and a troubling future. Trickle-down economics didn’t happen. Despite the vaunted all-time highs of the stock market, wages and salaries are at all-time lows as a percentage of the national wealth. At the same time, medical costs have risen 73% in the last six years alone. Half of that increase comes from wage-earners’ pockets rather than from insurance, and 47 million Americans have no medical insurance at all.
“The next question for Pelosi is whether she will continue her catfight with her California colleague Jane Harman, in line to serve as Chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, but whom the incoming Speaker wants to sideline for Florida Representative Alcee Hastings, impeached and removed from office as a federal judge for taking bribes. Editors of the New Republic as well as the New York Times have taken Pelosi to task for preferring as disgraced former judge over a widely respected liberal Congresswoman for this important position. As Captain Ed puts it, she opposes Harman not because of her qualities of leadership but “strictly for personal reasons.”
Tammy Bruce thinks Pelosi’s behavior is “typical of what I witnessed within the Democrat Feminist establishment for so long”:
http://gaypatriot.net/2006/11/16/with-murthas-defeat-will-pelosi-continue-catfight-with-harman
“Steny Hoyer and Jane Harman have proven themselves capable party spokespeople, and have a record for independent thinking. Pelosi opposes them both strictly for personal reasons. She doesn’t like Harman, feeling that her fellow Californian hasn’t been partisan enough in her role on the Intel committee, and Hoyer ran against her for Minority Leader in 2001. For those personal reasons, Pelosi wants to turn to a corrupt ex-judge and a bumbling porker for party leadership positions, making a mockery of her promises of reform.
http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/008525.php
Pelosi and the radical left lost big time yesterday. They can’t believe that the majority of Democrats are not leftist.
Since Pelosi is the wealthist Congress member of the House and she is gearing towards trying to put her corrupt friends into leadership position, can’t we just call the Democrats the Culture of Corruption.
Even Obama is being investigated by the Criminal Division of the Justice Department.
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/061116/nyth100.html?.v=71
Lets not even get to Harry Ried.
A Culture of Greed and Corruption. You little guys (which they call you) are being used and you got dooped.
LOL! Live with it!
Hey Joe,Read the article from the Wall Street Journal I posted upthread.Why do you guys cater so much to the wealthy elites? What’s in it for you Joe?
Have any of you seen the documentary “Hacking Democracy”? I know it is slanted to be shocking and make money, but there are some damn scary issues revealed. Do your votes count? How easily is an election bought?
Even as a Bush supporter, I think that Kerry won the election. I can’t believe he conceded knowing what he knew.
How can we call ourselves a democracy when we live on lies?
Aw Joe just likes sayin’ yessir! and getting his picture on the wall for employee of the month.
Hey Heckler I’ll get to your link later. It was taking too long to get to and while I was waiting I was remembering that Tammy Bruce is a fake. She pretends to be a democrat oh so sad at where her party has gone. Truth is she is a dyed in the wool gun totin’ buisness lovin’ Reagan Republican. She found a niche in koolade radio as the indignant Democrat and that is as deep as she goes.
Heckler is reading GAY PATRIOT?Damn heck, are ya’ “comin’ out”?HA.
Tracy
“Damn heck, are ya’ “comin’ out”?”
Nope, just seeing how many HEADS I can make explode today.
It has long been said that democracy is very messy. We are seeing that with the Democratic Party today as it chooses leadership for the upcoming Congress. However, that mess is also democracy’s strength.
The ultimate in Slippery Slope events. “Male Restroom Etiquette”
PG – rated, be advised. Adult Content.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=IzO1mCAVyMw
One of the better ones I’ve seen, although sometimes irreverant and gawdy, pretty funny. :)
Actually, you should have advised “Juvenile Content” – but still a lot of fun!
;^)
I wonder why the msm isnt playing up the split amongst republicans in electing THEIR leadership?
I see trent lott only won by ONE vote.
But no division in the party there. No siree. All holding hands and singing kumbaya.
And I see how the repubs have been throwing over their own. Like kenny boy mehlman, denny boy hastert, etc.
But it is the democrats who are splitting up with infighting?
Heheheh. Tell me again how the lmnop media isnt biased….
Big eye roll here.
Hey JM! Thanks for that video. That was great.
US mercenaries captured; Austrian killed; in Iraq – apparently by rogue elements of US-trained Iraqi security forces:
“Control of the area where the kidnapping took place had been formally handed to the Iraqi government from British and Italian forces.
The body of the Austrian was taken to a morgue in the city of Basra, and the wounded American was taken there so he could be transferred to a British military hospital, the Basra officer told The AP on condition of anonymity out of concern for his own security.
The Austrian and American had been found about 20 miles north of Safwan, where the convoy hijacking took place.
In Vienna, Astrid Harz, a spokeswoman for the Austrian foreign ministry, confirmed that a 25-year-old Austrian man had been kidnapped when the Crescent Security Group convoy was hijacked in southern Iraq on Thursday. She could not confirm that he had been killed.
U.S. officials could not immediately be contacted about the report that the American had been wounded.
An Iraqi police officer said the convoy had been stopped at a checkpoint on Thursday by Iraqi men, some of them wearing police uniforms.
The Crescent Security Group company works mostly in Iraq, and its operations are based in Kuwait. Many of its managers and employees are American.
A U.S. Embassy official, who refused to be identified because he was not authorized to release the information, told The Associated Press that the convoy included 43 heavy trucks and six security vehicles.”
Meanwhile, the Iraqi government may be unravelling:
” Government crisis brewingAs violence in Iraq continued to spiral out of control, a crisis was brewing for Iraq’s Shiite-led government.
The influential Association of Muslim Scholars called on Sunni politicians to quit Iraq’s government and parliament, angered by the government’s decision to issue an arrest warrant for the association’s leader, Harith al-Dhari.
Abdul-Salam al-Kubaisi, a spokesman for the association, said the arrest warrant was political cover for “the acts of the government’s security agencies that kill dozens of Iraqis every day.”
Al-Kubaisi called for “political groups to withdraw from parliament and the government, which has proven that it is not a national government.”
Sunni Vice President Tariq al-Hashimi also condemned the arrest warrant saying “it is destructive to the national reconciliation plan.” In a statement, al-Hashimi urged the government to cancel the warrant immediately.
Al-Dhari, who is in Jordan, said the arrest warrant was illegal and “proof of the failure and the confusion of the Iraqi government.”
http://www.netscape.com/viewstory/2006/11/16/civilian-convoy-hijacked-in-southern-iraq/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.msnbc.msn.com%2Fid%2F15757065%2F
hmmm, I see the situation with the Iraqi government proceeding to the inevitable denouement. Just wonder how much longer this Greek tragedy will last, and how much more of our treasure will be expended to prop up that which was doomed to fail from the inception.
Boehner for House Minority Leader, 168-27, and Blount for Minority Whip, 137-57. I love that Joe Barton from Texas got one vote. That’s so Jr. high school to vote for yourself.
So, let’s see: the Republican faces of the Senate will be McConnell and Lott, and those of the House are Boehner and Blount. That makes one state from the Deep South, two border states, and one rust belt state.
The GOP appears to be branding itself as the party of the South. Fine by me.
CF, I see that as a reflection of reality based upon the results of the 2006 election.
nice post morg
In California, walled and gated communities are becoming the housing norm for the affluent. The represents the fear that accompanies hyper-acquisitive materialism.
Industrial capitalists in the late 19th and early 20th century successfully lobbied for the mass-importation of peasants to do menial, often backbreaking jobs, at low wages. These imported workers were severely disadvantaged. At first they were non-citizens who had no rights. Then, after they gained citizenship, it was “naturalized”, which is to say rescindable. So they were second-class citizens. Their children were forced to attend public schools that were designed to preclude social advancement to autonomous adulthood, but rather public education was deliberately designed to generate a domestic long-term production of low-cost, tractable industrial-economy labor.
World War II changed things. The capitalists realized that 12 million battle-hardened veterans were not going to accept the abuses their fathers endured. They had defeated the Nazis and Japs, and demanded—and got—a decent share of the spoils of war. The GI Bill’s college-education reward was not entirely altruistic, because it was designed in part to provide a “breathing space” for the American economy to restructure and become capable of providing jobs to servicemen, that were not immediately available in 1945-46. But the higher education of blue-collar-family men dramatically altered the economy per se, and to good effect.
The industries and able-bodied work forces of Europe and Japan were decimated. This, along with uncompetitive American access to cheap natural resources worldwide, enabled American industry to thrive, and for American industrial manual-skills workers to enter the middle class for the first time.
American workers have lost these post-war advantages.
I think that many of us realize that the so-called “War on Terror” and “Operation Enduring Freedom” are scams. If they were real, we’d have a draft, and send millions of soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines to the Middle East. The children of affluent citizens and politicians would be drafted. The Bush and Cheney daughters would be in military service right now. We would not only have driven Saddam out of power, we would impose the same governing structure (backed by overwhelming force) that we did in Germany and Japan, with staged construction of democratic institutions. Victorious returning servicemen and women would be given a decent share of the spoils of victory, as their grandfathers were.
If “Operation Enduring Freedom” were a real war, with legitimate causes, we would have enlisted the substantial participation of European nations, and even some Middle Eastern nations. How many people realize that aside from Britain, which contributed some 40,000 troops initially, most of the “coalition” nations sent 2000 troops or fewer, which is to say smaller numbers of troops than the Wichita recruiting office signed up between 2000 and 2003.If this were a real war, in which America was threatened by Weapons of Mass Destruction being developed in Iraq for use against America, Congress would have formally declared war. It would have formally declared war against Afghanistan, which harbored and trained al-Quaeda terrorists, and arguably Saudi Arabia, which supplied both terrorists, and money to train and equip them. We certainly would not have “cut and run” in Afghanistan, and let the Taliban retake control, as it is doing right now.
To people like Nathan who is putting himself in harm’s way, I sympathize. Members of my family fought in WWI and WWII. I never sought a draft deferment, even though I could have in Vietnam, as a college student. I have a volunteer serviceman son. But, some people need to wake up. A war concocted by draft-dodging armchair-warrior chicken hawks is not a real war. Neocon pro-invasion Paul Wolfowitz passed on the opportunity to fight in Vietnam. He went to grad school. Dick Cheney used a string of education deferments, and eventually a fatherhood deferment to keep himself out of harm’s way. Georgie Boy went for the National Guard at a time when NGers were not called up for Vietnam assignments. Donald Rumsfeld, a trained peacetime Navy pilot, was well qualified to fly in Nam, but declined the opportunity to put his taxpayer-funded skills to work.
Newly elected Democrat Senator Jim Webb of Virginia was a decorated Vietnam veteran. He has a son in the Marines. We might reasonably judge that those who manipulate things to keep themselves out of harm’s way, and their own children out of harm’s way, but use other people’s children to do the fighting, are by any reasonable definition unpatriots.
Joe Williams – I think you are overstating your case. A Republican blogger has requested the Bush administration DoJ investigate Obama. That doesn’t really mean much. I could file a petition to have you investigated; what would that mean?
I do not often find myself in agreement with Charles Krauthammer. However, much of what is contained the linked article seems to support thoughts I have posted, as well as those posted by others:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/11/can_the_iraqis_keep_their_repu.html
Y’all check this crap out:
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/10336501/detail.html
Now, question is… Is this a conservative thing… Liberal thing…. or just dumg as hell?
Sol, my answer is “None of the above”.
VT, you agree with the decision? That was supposed to be “dumb” not “dumg”
They seem to acknowledge that their smoke seeps into neighbors’ properties. That changes it from being a private matter to being an appropriate association concern.
I personally have absolutely no problem with people smoking as long as they keep their smoke away from me. However, their right to smoke ends where my right to breath begins.
Condos are a problem in that smells (whether smoking, cats, or boiling cabbage) migrate.
A question for our legal types. Should an accused have a right to an attorney? Apparently not any more …
Judge: Detainee can’t speak to attorneyAssociated PressWASHINGTON – A suspected terrorist who spent years in a secret CIA prison is not allowed to speak to a civilian attorney until an appeals court decides what rights military detainees have, a federal judge said Friday.
The Justice Department argues that under a new anti-terrorism law, detainees have no right to challenge their imprisonment in civilian courts. Human rights groups argue that’s unconstitutional.
Until the U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia settles the question, legal challenges brought by hundreds of detainees remain in limbo.
Terror suspect Majid Khan is among those whose cases are pending. Khan and 13 other prisoners designated as “terrorist leaders” were transfered from CIA custody to the military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, in September.
Attorneys who filed documents on his behalf said Khan needs access to a lawyer because he may have been tortured. The Justice Department objected, saying Khan could reveal details of the CIA program including interrogation techniques.
U.S. District Judge Reggie B. Walton ordered the government to report back on Khan’s mental and physical health but denied the request for an attorney. Khan is allowed to ask again if the appeals court decides detainees must have access to civilian courts.
http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/breaking_news/16038644.htm
“If “Operation Enduring Freedom” were a real war…”Posted by: heartlander | November 17, 2006 at 10:10 AM
I understand the sentiment of not being a ‘declared war’ or one involving global involvement of allies, but your choice of words may offend those actually participating in the event you are calling “Not a real war.”
As far as I know, everyone who is in the military today is a volunteer. Some volunteered even after the Iraq invasion.
So, I’m not sure where you get the idea “use other people’s children to do the fighting” comes from.
Boomers in my age category were the last people susceptible to the draft. The draft ended in 1973 and required registration ended a couple of years later. I believe Carter tried reinstate it later, although I could be mistaken about that.
I’m not sure I understand why you brand the current administration Chicken-hawks.
Take Clinton’s reign, the Bosnian War. Clinton never served in the military; the war in Serb/Bosnia area was about genocide and threatening to disrupt the region.Sound familiar? That war lasted between March 1992 and November 1995.
Is Clinton a chickenhawk as well?I mean he sat his time during the Vietnam war out in England.
I understand the objections to the current war, but to phrase the event as ‘not real’ only puts those serving in a cheap frame.
Are you going to tell those who died, were wounded or served they didn’t do anything in a real war, so their duty is somehow less.
From my time in the military, I grew tired of my generation being compared to WWII; you know the so-called greatest generation.
I had to listen to the “brown shoes” how my generation was somehow weaker, more incompetent and never fought in a real war.
Even my own family believed the myth of the ‘good ole wars.’ On Veterans day, it was up to me to take the old ‘vets’ to get the photos taken, take them to dinner and etc.
Guess who never was in the photos or acknowledge to never have even served. Even though I had served seven times the length in military as most of them had (20+years) I wasn’t in the ‘big one’ so that didn’t count. I was never in the real war.
It didn’t matter I saw people die, was shot at, received the same medals as they did… Because I was not in a ‘real war’ it didn’t count.
I’m not including myself as the loan ranger here, there are many of us who served after the World Wars who are often compared to the ‘greatest generation’ but our service is somehow cheaper, less important. If you are a Veteran from the 1960s on up, you know what I’m talking about. Those who aren’t won’t have a clue.
So, next time you talk about a real war, how about just saying you don’t think we should be there and leave it at that. Don’t cheapen the time of those that serve.
From the link you posted, the decision seems correct from a legal perspective. The smokers would have the burden to seal off their unit so as to not infringe upon their neighbors’ rights to quiet enjoyment of their property, which, IMHO, would include the right to be free of unwanted second-hand smoke. I felt that the analogy to loud music drawn in the piece was apt.
Generally, one may use his/her property in any lawful manner he/she sees fit, so long as by so doing, it does not infringe upon the rights of others to be free from the effects of such use. This is what so often is forgotten by those who complain about restrictions.
I am aware that the HOA can be criticized by its actions; however, the bylaws prohibited nuisances, and there was likely ample provision therein concerning notice, etc. on any changes. Remember, this is a townhouse development; not a development of free-standing single family dwellings. Further, it sounds as if the change to the bylaws, etc., were supported by the great majority of the other owners, making it democracy in action, if you will.
The smokers’ solution will be to sell their unit, and move somewhere else.
JM, Selective Service registration is still mandatory for males; it is to occur within 30 days of one’s 18th birthday. Failure to register makes one ineligible for federally funded financial aid, certain federally funded jobs programs, and certain other “benefits” I currently do not recall.
To add to your thoughts on “not a real war”; the old “brown shoe” types in my day were always dragging their lifer asses around, complaining about the young troops, etc.; the true career professionals didn’t waste their time on such trivial matters; they were concerned about making the services better. Additionally, the Korean War vets are treated as never being in a “real war” either, much as our Vietnam war troops.
I will always support the men and women in uniform; don’t count on me always supporting their civilian bosses.
“I will always support the men and women in uniform; don’t count on me always supporting their civilian bosses.”
here here…
I have wanted to make a bumper sticker saying,
“Support our troops, not our president”
The ongoing wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are very real.
The ‘War on Terror’ is not.
“I will always support the men and women in uniform; don’t count on me always supporting their civilian bosses.” Posted by: Vaughn Tolle | November 17, 2006 at 11:51 AM
I acknowledge your statement and you should have your opinion about the war.
I went on a tirade about growing weary of the ‘greatest generation’ mantra. Also, how those who didn’t serve in the ‘big one’s’ haven’t seen real war.
JM, guess I wasn’t clear in my cited post; I am in support of your position. Rage’s subsequent post pretty well sums up my thoughts.
Should a foreign captive suspected of terroristic activities be given the same rights as an American?
Iraq, VietNam, Bush still doesn’t get it.
“Bush Compares U.S. Wars in Vietnam, IraqHANOI, Vietnam (AP) – President Bush, on his first visit to acountry where America lost a two-decade-long fight againstcommunism, said Friday the Vietnam War’s lesson for today’sconfounding Iraq conflict is that freedom takes time to trumphatred.Embracing a former enemy that remains communist but is allowingcapitalism to surge, Bush opened a four-day stay here that wasfueling an already raging debate over his war policy. Democrats whowon control of Congress say last week’s elections validate theircall for U.S. troops to start coming home soon, while Bush argues -as he did again Friday – for patience with a mission he says can’tbe ended until Iraq can remain stable on its own.”
We now have good relations with a country that stood up to us and threw us out. They eventually recovered IN SPITE OF THE US and are now a trading partner.
” The president said there was much to be learned from thedivisive Vietnam War – the longest conflict in U.S. history – ashis administration contemplates new strategies for the increasinglydifficult war in Iraq, now in its fourth year. But his critics seeparallels with Vietnam – a determined insurgency and a death tollthat has drained public support – that spell danger for draggingout U.S. involvement in Iraq.“It’s just going to take a long period of time for the ideologythat is hopeful – and that is an ideology of freedom – to overcomean ideology of hate,” Bush said after having lunch at his lakesidehotel with Australian Prime Minister John Howard, whose country hasbeen one of America’s strongest allies in Iraq, Vietnam and otherconflicts.“We’ll succeed,” Bush added, “unless we quit.””
In many ways we eventually “won” precisely BECAUSE we lost. That allowed VietNam to build their own system.
http://my.netscape.com/corewidgets/news/story.psp?cat=51180&id=2006111713090001729971
“He pronounced it hopeful that the UnitedStates and Vietnam have reconciled differences after a war thatended 31 years ago when the Washington-backed regime in Saigonfell.”
Maybe if we allow the US-backed regime in Baghdad to fall we can eventually reconcile with Iraq.
Taking the bait, Sol, yes, if tried in a civilian court of the United States. Yes, if there was torture or other unlawful conduct, even if tried by military tribunal.
As I believe I posted a few weeks ago on another thread, I am grievously troubled by the provisions of the Military Commissions Act of 2006. Turning to the Kahn case to which I assume you refer, the objection of the government concerning testimony on the use of classified CIA interrogation techniques in asserting the torture claim is, IMHO, a real one, that is, if there is public airing of the techniques, then the same become known and can be trained against. I am of the opinion that this should be considered “a matter of law” to be determined by the trial judge after an in camera review of the proffered testimony and the techniques in question.
This is a tough one; a question of balance, to be sure. I happen to come down on the side of the defendant here insofar as access to the civil court to determine a habeas petition, notwithstanding the strip of habeas jurisdiction therefrom by the Congress (as it is entitled to do under the Constitution) in these matters. The issue is whether this may be done constitutionally in the habeas area, which I feel will eventually be answered by SCOTUS.
VT,That is a tough one. I have a hard time thinking about them having the same rights as a citizen. I have a hard time not supporting torture. I have a hard time with these when I think about the heinous things that “they” do, how they do them, and the “rights” they would have in their country of origin.
GMC, rm, and all other readers similarly situated:
Does this cool your enthusiasm for an appointment to SCOTUS? It sure does mine!
http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/11/17/court.cookies/index.html
“…if tried in a civilian court of the United States. Yes, if there was torture or other unlawful conduct, even if tried by military tribunal.”Posted by: Vaughn Tolle | November 17, 2006 at 01:20 PM
So in the case of the Civil War, when southern states seceded from the United States forming a Country of Illegality, Abraham Lincoln was wrong when he suspended habeas corpus?
How does the status of terrorist differ from those tried in WWII at Nuremburg? I believe there were civilians on trial then as well.
So, what would happen if we turned over the terrorist to the host country? I mean Taliban and Al Quaeda to the Afghans and the Iraqis. What would be the objection then?
JM, a partial answer to your several questions (as paraphrased below).
Was Lincoln correct in suspending habeas corpus during the Civil War in the Confederacy? No, according to Ex Parte Merryman, 17 F. Cas 144 (C.C.D. Md, 1861), circuit court headed by Chief Justice of the United States Roger Taney (decision ignored by Lincoln). Yes, Ex Parte Milligan, 71 U.S. 2 (1866), holding the suspension was lawful. I would offer that the discussion in the Constitution concerning suspension of “The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus…unless in time of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it[.]” is found in Article I, Section 9, Limitations on legislation, etc., dealing with the Legislative branch of government. One could argue therefrom that the Executive has no inherent power to so suspend, but it is up to the Legislative to enact a law suspending the right to the Writ during the times set forth. By the way, Milligan is the seminal case on use of military commissions to try civilians; IIRC, it holds on this question that civilians may be held, but not tried by military tribunals if the regular civil courts are open.I happen to be one that disagrees with Lincoln’s action, based upon his not seeking authority from the Legislative to do so.
How do terrorists differ from those tried at Nuremburg? First, terrorists generally are so-called non-state actors; the defendants at Nuremburg were part of a belligerent state. The deeds of the said defendants were thusly justiciable by a court under the provisions of international law. The Nuremburg trials were held pursuant to an agreement among the United Nations, as it then existed (IIRC), and pursuant to existing provisions of international law. The difference, then, comes down to “non-state actors” and “citizens of a belligerent state”. Not highly informative to either of us, but a critical matter, as I understand it, in questions arising under the Laws of War and International Law.
What is wrong with returning the detainees to their country of origin? I assume from the way you phrase your question, you mean for trial and punishment. Nothing, to the best of my knowledge, if the correct country of origin is able to be determined. Of course, the inherent danger in so doing is said host country determines its law was not violated, international law was not violated, etc., and the detainee is released to continue on his/her way; or, there is not a clear determination of the country of origin; or the country of origin really doesn’t have a judiciary, as we think of the term; or if such return is not requested under an existing extradition treaty, etc.
The above are just quick, off the top of my head responses.
Stay the lie …
‘You just keep moving, you shoot and go’
By ROBERT C. KOEHLER | Tribune Media Services | May 25, 2006
As we stare with sudden revulsion at the apparent cold-blooded murder of Iraqi civilians in Haditha — at least 15, maybe twice that number, killed by Marines avenging a buddy, including a 3-year-old girl, and men shoved into a closet, and a man kneeling in prayer — let us have the wit not to feign shock.
The massacre in this farming town on the Euphrates, about 150 miles northwest of Baghdad, may not be precisely part of Operation Iraqi Freedom’s official mission, but neither is it an aberration. Indeed, it is, as Iraq vet Charlie Anderson said to me, a “foreseeable consequence” of an occupation that from day one was clumsy, brutal and clueless. As it grinds into its fourth year, with thousands of GIs caught by stop-loss orders in a tour of duty without end, and with all claims of noble purpose long since abandoned by our government like burned-out tanks in the desert, the frustrations and hatreds generated by our presence continue to intensify.
What happened in Haditha six months ago — two days after Rep. John Murtha introduced his brave, lonely resolution to pull U.S. troops out of Iraq — shatters every argument of the stay-the-course crowd and throws the dithering cowardice of Congress into stark relief. The longer we force our exhausted troops to stay not the “course” but the lie, the more dangerous the occupation becomes, for the Iraqis, for us, for the world.
more …
http://www.netscape.com/viewstory/2006/11/17/stay-the-lie/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.starttherevolution.org%2Farchives%2F2006%2F200611%2FStayTheLie.htm&frame=true
“Stay the lie …”Posted by: hmmm … | November 17, 2006 at 03:06 PM
Thank you for dishonoring our soldiers.
Have you ever mentioned the thousands of kind acts that occurred when soldiers help civilians?
You think this is the first war that has happened in?
To use this as an advantage for political gain is beyond wretched.
I’ll just ignore anything you write from now on as it is unworthy for attention.
JM, the link posted by hmmm seemed to me not to dishonor soldiers, but to critique those who have placed them in that position.
Yes, this is not the first war this has happened in; nor will it be the last. What I feel needs to be learned is that those who do not screen troops; who cause them to stay too long in battle; who subject them to unimaginable stress, based, in part, on a bad decision to underman the force, are at as much fault as the individual soldiers themselves. Yes, the individual soldiers are responsible for their actions; but the responsibility should not, and must not, stop there. That, to me, is what the linked post was all about.
“…the link posted by hmmm seemed to me not to dishonor soldiers, but to critique those who have placed them in that position.” Posted by: Vaughn Tolle | November 17, 2006 at 04:17 PM
So using the bloodied corpses of Iraqi civilians is fair in the ‘game’ you call politics. That’s what it comes down to. If one can serve their own purpose to achieve gain in a political arena, then all is fair?
You forgot to mention the soldiers and marines who risk their lives rescueing civilians from harm’s way whether it be from gunfire, explosion or fire.
You are forgetting to mention the medics who tend to the wounded when insurgents set off their bombs of destruction. You forget the single soldier who shares his food with the Iraqi civilian because he wished to be kind in a time of strife.
Or the school rooms that were cleaned, rebuilt and painted. Or thousands of other kind things.
But, go ahead wave that bloody stump of vicious mockery as a standard for political gain.
Evidently, the words “Stay the lie,” offers no insight behind ‘hmmm’s’ motive for the posting.
As far as I know, no decision has been reached in this case. Or did you go to another law school where it says people are presumed guilty until innocent?
Our troops have been placed in a no-win situation by an incompetant civilian leadership. That situation leads to severe battle fatigue and also a tendancy to dehumanize the “enemy” such that “all ragheads look alike”
This has been confirmed to me by men who have “been there done that”; they consider our “crackhead-in-chief” to be the one doing the dishoner.
Seems to me that apartment must be pretty sadly made with no ventilation if it’s seeping into the neighbor’s apartments. I’ve lived in many apartments, and never ever did I have this kind of an issue.
JM, to my knowledge there has been no decision in this matter. I also believe in the presumption of innocence, as hard as it is sometimes to so believe. I also believe the reports that the Marines hid evidence of the matter, delayed any investigation, obstructed the proceedings to date; this gives me cause to wonder.
As to the other issues you raise: those are indeed meritorious, and should be mentioned. But, JM, have they improved security in Baghdad; have they caused the Iraqis to view the US as friends; have they reduced, overall, “insurgent attacks” on our forces in Iraq? I think not, based upon the blogs from Iraq I read; the reports on Iraqi public opinion polls; and the like.
I also recall reading in the article the author using the word “apparent” in describing what might have happened there.
Be that as it may, was this precise article used by anyone on this blog for political purpose? Was it used by anyone at all for those purposes? I am certainly unaware of its use therefor. I know that if I’m incorrect, you will let me know.
By the way; do you prefer “stay the course” since it has been shown that the course isn’t working?
Mom, I, too have lived in many apartments, etc., and have experienced the issue of smoke from next door wafting into our particular leased unit. It is highly probable there are issues with construction, etc.; but with family members sensitive to tobacco smoke, it is a problem when it occurs.
Of course, those who claimed that the terrorists would cheer a Democratic win were NOT playing politics. Especially since our misadventure in Iraq BENEFITS alQuada.
p-mom, VT – it depends a lot on whether it has open halls/stairs or closed ones. Open ones will be less likely to transmit smoke/odors.
“…to my knowledge there has been no decision in this matter.” Posted by: Vaughn Tolle | November 17, 2006 at 05:05 PM
Perhaps the Qisas (blood money) has not been satisfactory to the next of kin in this particular case. I mention this because in another case involving British serviceman, it was established that the next of kin and the witnesses for the grieved relatives would not testify until the sufficient amount of Qisas had been obtained.
By the way, in this village, the townspeople were already be ‘rolled’ by the insurgents of their paychecks. The reason as I understand it for the Marines to patrol that area was that the houses were in direct line of sight for a wireless device that are often used for roadside bombs (IED’s)
“…shatters every argument of the stay-the-course crowd…”
Excerpt from ( ) initial post on the matter shows intent of the post as well as an targetted population (crowd.)
Now that the pen has been dipped in the bloodied paint; continue to sign one’s collective names to the writ of defamation.
If the Marines and the Sailor are presumed to be innocent until proven guilty then the malice of promoting the propaganda of the incident can be the only motive. Since I assume that ( ) is not a terrorist, I must assume that the propaganda he is promoting for an advantage is for political gain.
Either way, by waving around statements not yet in evidence using a trial by press is not the way our country operates and is certainly not the way we should treat our military members under circumstances where we have no idea what the facts in evidence are.
I apologize for not being clear earlier in saying we are not fighting real wars. The men and women serving on the front lines are fighting real wars.
What I was talking about was that if our survival were threatened by Saddam and al-Quaeda, our leaders’ response would have been far different.
In WWII, not only did we draft millions of men, the entire economy was reconfigured to defeat the Axis. Automobile plants were converted to army truck production lines. Existing steel and aluminum production was commandeered, and enormously expanded. Major league baseball was shut down. West Point and the Naval Academy became college-football powerhouses because our best young athletes enrolled in them.
Gasoline was rationed, as were some foodstuffs like sugar. Americans were issued stamps that determined how much of these commodities they could buy. The production of civilian clothing was cut in half to manufacture military textile goods ranging from uniforms to parachutes. The shortages were so severe that black markets developed for ordinary consumer goods.
Civilian farms were issued government contracts to feed our armed forces, so townspeople grew Victory Gardens to feed their families. Millions of families defered having children until the war was over. Everybody bought war bonds.
This isn’t what we have today. We have a war which is designed to not “disrupt” the “American good life”. No one except those who serve are being called to make sacrifices. Rumsfeld, like McNamara, developed a “calibrated” model of war, comprised of limited manpower and high-tech shock-and-awe-provoking “smart” weapons.
“Mission Accomplished” was nothing like VE or VJ Day, when the leaders of the enemy forces formally surrendered, and they had the authority to ensure that their troops laid down their weapons. All that “Mission Accomplished” did was send tens of thousands of Saddam’s men to the hills to heal their wounds and plan guerilla actions.
With the number of posts I have read assuming all Muslims or Arabs or Iraqis are guilty of being terrorists I find it somewhat ironic to see someone concerned about assuming guilt. I remember some people saying we should nuke cities in Iran etc just because we think they might be up to no good.
I submit that it is that sort of thinking that makes things like Haditha happen.
BTW – were WMDs or Saddam’s supposed links to alQuada ever placed in evidence? Or just in the media with the NYTimes as head cheerleader along with FAUX and the radio talkers?
Philanthropy Expert: Conservatives Are More Generous
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/204/story_20419_1.html
Excerpts:
The child of academics, raised in a liberal household and educated in the liberal arts, Brooks has written a book that concludes religious conservatives donate far more money than secular liberals to all sorts of charitable activities, irrespective of income.
In the book, he cites extensive data analysis to demonstrate that values advocated by conservatives — from church attendance and two-parent families to the Protestant work ethic and a distaste for government-funded social services — make conservatives more generous than liberals.
…”For too long, liberals have been claiming they are the most virtuous members of American society. Although they usually give less to charity, they have nevertheless lambasted conservatives for their callousness in the face of social injustice.”
…Conversely, secular liberals who believe fervently in government entitlement programs give far less to charity. They want everyone’s tax dollars to support charitable causes and are reluctant to write checks to those causes, even when governments don’t provide them with enough money.
…Harvey Mansfield, professor of government at Harvard University and 2004 recipient of the National Humanities Medal, does not know Brooks personally but has read the book.
“His main finding is quite startling, that the people who talk the most about caring actually fork over the least,” he said. “But beyond this finding I thought his analysis was extremely good, especially for an economist. He thinks very well about the reason for this and reflects about politics and morals in a way most economists do their best to avoid.”….
Discuss:
Joe–
All the charity in the world didn’t help people like Social Security did and does.
Poverty among the elderly fell from 40 to less than 10 percent because of Social Security.
United Way and all the churches put together can’t even come close . . .
Never forget that conservatives hated Social Security then and they hate it now.
I’m not surprised at the results of that study. Some liberals, of course, are very generous. But taken as a group, liberals love to show their compassion by using the government to spend other people’s money.
If all you do is vote for politicians who spend tax money on government social programs, is that real compassion? Not in my book.
Thanks for showing the “compassion” of conservatives, outlandish.
Let Grandma starve like the good old days.
And btw liberals pay the same taxes as everybody else. How is that, “other people’s money”? It’s all of our money used for the betterment of all . . .
We have social security and I’m glad we do. Big deal. We all pay for it
So why now does this study show that secular liberals give far less that religious conservatives? Are liberals as a group selfish? Apparently so. Liberals as a group want to force others to fund their compassion, or actually fund their lack of compassion.
Arthur Brooks’ analysis, not yet published, needs to be examined. Mormons tithe. If they don’t, they are pressured by their church leaders to “pay up”. Do Mormons’ donations constitute free-will generosity? No. Coercion does not equal generosity.
Vaughn Tolle knows a lot about KU. KU is considered to be more liberal than KSU. So which university has a larger alumni-donation-based endowment? According to
http://www2.ku.edu/~oirp/profiles/FY2005/3-101_to_3-210.pdf
liberal KU’s endowment is 4 times as large as its more-conservative counterpart.
So who’s giving money here?
Liberal media mogul David Geffen gave UCLA some money two years ago. $200 million. Geffen, a New York native, and U Texas dropout got UCLA’s medical school renamed after himself. That probably doesn’t do anything for his own bottom line, such as generating more ticket sales for Dreamworks SKG movies.
Intel co-founder Gordon Moore has given $600 million to Caltech. The majority of Caltech students are on scholarship. Dr. Moore is nonpartisan.
Is Bill Gates a conservative or liberal–or nonpartisan? He’s poured more than a billion dollars into educating minority students.
There is also an issue of many IRS-classified nonprofit “foundations” actually being vehicles for profit-making. I personally know of doctors who had zero research experience who published “foundation”-funded fabricated “research reports” whose purpose was to fraudulently inflate biotech-company stock values by creating an illusion of marketable drug properties that didn’t actually exist. “Research” data were invented from thin air. Eventually, the data could not be replicated, but the government never prosecuted the fraud-artist doctors, nor did the IRS or SEC penalize the “charitable donors” for perpetrating a scam against public investors.
Heartlander: I suppose the study will be examined and the spin applied when it is published. But for the time being, pure speculation and individual exceptions really are not valid arguments to dispute a general study.
Was this broken down by how much they earned? Being one liberal who barely makes it, I often donate my time over money, because I simply can’t afford to part with all that much.
If I had more, you bet I’d give more.
Directly from the article Mom:
“The child of academics, raised in a liberal household and educated in the liberal arts, Brooks has written a book that concludes religious conservatives donate far more money than secular liberals to all sorts of charitable activities, irrespective of income.
Still, he says it forcefully, pointing out that liberals give less than conservatives in every way imaginable, including volunteer hours and donated blood.
Political mom,
Excellent point. When I gave uncompensated medical care to uninsured, poor Americans, I never got a tax deduction, and my work-product was never counted as a “charitable contribution”.
Was it a charitable contribution to America? I think it was. And you would too, if you received my medical care without an ability to pay for it. It just wasn’t characterizable in studies like Albert Brooks’ as charitable donations. Which is why his “research” is totally bogus.
Interesting Discussion lets pick the study apart and get to the meat of it.
http://www.policyreview.org/oct03/brooks.html
How do religious and secular people vary in their charitable behavior? To answer this, I turn to data collected expressly to explore patterns in American civic life. The Social Capital Community Benchmark Survey (sccbs) was undertaken in 2000 by researchers at universities throughout the United States and the Roper Center for Public Opinion Research. The data consist of nearly 30,000 observations drawn from 50 communities across the United States and ask individuals about their “civic behavior,” including their giving and volunteering during the year preceding the survey.
http://www.ksg.harvard.edu/saguaro/communitysurvey/
How connected are Americans to each other?
How many of your neighbors’ first names do you know?How often do you attend parades or festivals?Do you volunteer at your kids’ school? Or help out senior citizens?Do you trust your local police?Do you know who your U.S. senators are?Do you attend religious services? Or go to the theater?Do you sign petitions? Or attend neighborhood meetings?Do you think the people running your community care about you?Can you make a difference?How often do you visit with friends or family?
oooh now this is deep
Tomorrow, undefeated Ohio State and Michigan go head to head. Go Wolverines!
Hail to the Victors! Win one for Bo!
.morg, yes to all of the above for me.
morg, thank you for the clarifying post. Brooks’ work shows that religious conservatives give more than secular conservatives, and religious liberals give more than secular liberals. I would find no reason to disagree with the proposition that religious people tend to give more than non-religious people.
One of Brooks’ interesting comments is that the working poor give a larger share of their income than the middle class.
I would say that the working poor giving till it hurts does far more good (SPIRITUALLY) than wealthy folks giving what they will never miss.
Outlander–
Conservatives hated Social Security when it was created, they tried to kill it then, and they are still trying to kill it. And they still hate it.
If you don’t believe it, read this conservative web-page, The Future of Freedom Foundation:
“Consider the crown jewel of the socialistic welfare state – Social Security. Here’s a government program that is the absolute embodiment of the socialist dictum “From each according to his ability; to each according to his need.” By now, everyone should know that there is no Social Security fund and that there never has been one. Social Security is a straight transfer program. The IRS collects taxes from the young and productive, and the Social Security Administration administers the welfare to the elderly. The system is based on taking what belongs to one person and giving it to someone to whom it does not belong.
“Let’s not forget the roots of Social Security. It did not originate with Madison, Washington, or Jefferson. In fact, our American ancestors would have nothing to do with such a program. That’s why Americans lived without Social Security from 1787 to 1935.”
http://www.fff.org/freedom/0400a.asp
If you don’t oppose Social Security, outlander, consider the fact that you may not be a true conservative.
As for Brook’s book, it sounds like he’s starting with the conclusion first and then finding the evidence to support it.
As a regular contributor to The Wall Street Journal editorial page, his conservative credentials are in no doubt.
A lot of these books come out with a wild thesis backed up with meticulous “research” which then falls apart with just a little investigation.
For instance, see how Al Franken evicerated Ann Coulter’s last book by simply looking at the footnotes.
Okay, that’s too easy, I grant you.
But then there was the “More Guns, Less Crime” which could not be supported by independent research. And “The Bell Curve” which claimed a racial bias for intelligence, again quickly debunked by people without a political position to prove.
What was measured: what people actually DO or what they say they do? How was conservative and liberal defined? How was charity defined or volunteering time?
For instance, in the last election, I donated a lot of time and money for liberals because I believe these candidates will benefit our country. To me, that’s charity.
Is it charity to Brooks? Is church attendance “volunteering” for example?