Democrats in Congress are firm about wanting a timetable to withdraw troops from Iraq. The question is how to close the distance between their position and the view from the ground that Gen. John Abizaid, the top U.S. commander in the Middle East, expressed Wednesday to the Senate Armed Services Committee: that a timetable would be too inflexible for forces and would actually increase violence. “It seems to me that the prudent course ahead is to keep the troop levels about where they are,” Abizaid said, even suggesting that some levels may need to rise to facilitate training of Iraqi military units.
Meanwhile, columnist Cal Thomas outlined a scary redeployment scenario on Wednesday’s Opinion pages in which there is “just enough time for American troops to leave before al-Qaida murders the elected leadership and takes over Iraq.” If the United States takes this path, he predicts, what comes next is that “al-Qaida announces that weapons of mass destruction have been placed in key American and European cities” and demands the United States stop protecting Israel. “After capitulating on the installment plan, who will have the political or moral capital (or military capacity) to stop Armageddon?” he asks.
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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126 Comments
Cal you ignorant slut.That’s a movie script,not an editorial.
It appears Cal got his multiple-city terror briefing from 24’s scriptwriters, or perhaps directly from former CTU agent Jack Bauer.
As a Fox News regular, Cal doesn’t exactly have a lot of credibility. This is the network that forced a one of its Florida reporters to falsify an investigative report, for which she sued, and Fox told the court that under the First Amendment, the station and network were under no legal requirement to make “news” shows factual, and the court agreed.
huffintonpost.com received and published a memo written by Senior Vice President John Moody that outlined tactics to spin the Nov. 7 election results.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2006/11/14/fox-news-internal-memo-_n_34128.html
Gen. Abizaid’s comments are not entirely authoritative either, for the blatantly obvious reason that the administration forced out the generals who disagreed with the Rumsfeld Doctrine. The ones who went along with it were promoted to fill the vacant chairs.
At yesterday’s Senate Armed Services Committee meeting, Abizaid rejected John McCain’s call for more troops to be sent to Iraq, he rejected Carl Levin’s proposal for a phased drawdown. In essence, he called for a continuance of “Stay the Course”.
I think the questioned that needs to both be asked and answered is: Why is Al-Quida in Iraq in the first place? They were not there under Saddam’s rule, but they are now. Could it have anything to do with our invasion of Iraq and the instability it subsequently brought?
While no one here seems to give any credence to Cal’s opinion, there is a ring of truth to it. It would be difficult to back away from the fact terrorism is not going to stop because we either stay or leave Iraq. The question, again, seems to me to be how far are we willing to go to keep terrorism from our front door again?
Obviously staying the course in Iraq is going to do little to stabilize the country. To do so makes us, in a way, no better than Sadaam: innocent people are, and will continue, dying. We’ve slipped the dogs of war and they’re turning around and looking at us. How do we handle that?
Bashing bush is not the answer. It’s already happened, so what do we do, as a nation, to correct the mess, or is it even possible. While Iraq may think it’s in the twenty-first century, it’s still mired in a BC philoshpy; as is, apparently, the whole middle east.
So maybe instead of pointing fingers, we should be comming up with workable solutions. There are some very bright minds here. Use them.
Then Al-Quida comes to the U.S., murders our govt. leaders, and takes over the White House and the United States!
And then tornados start blowing cows all over the place. And aliens blow up the White House.
The sky is falling!The sky is falling!
“On Tuesday night, in an ironic turnaround, Iraq brought regime change to the U.S.”—Amy Poehler
Where is the 350,000-man ARI in all this? According to the rosy picture being painted by Bush et.al. the dead-enders are in their last throes. Can’t the ARI finish them off?
Sigh……
OK Somebody get Rhonda’s fainting couch!
Cal Thomas has always been a kook. Have ya noticed since he shaved the moustache that he has gone stark raving bonkers?
J M Walker asks a thoughtful question. How do we address this?
Well, terrorism is just a word for REALLY ticked off, or desperate, or zealous people.
Seems to me ya can’t scare or beat such people into civilized behavior.
SO you do your best to address their anger, or desperation, or zeal. Failing that ya just stay away from them and keep them away from you.
Of course, there isn’t any money in that.
I don’t get it- the CIA, DIA and DOD intelligence agencies all say that things are getting more violent and civil war looms near, and this General wants to continue along this failing course of action?Did I miss something? Didn’t Mark Twain say something like a fool is someone that continues doing the same action and expecting a different outcome?
Well, terrorism is just a word for REALLY ticked off, or desperate, or zealous people.
“Seems to me ya can’t scare or beat such people into civilized behavior.
SO you do your best to address their anger, or desperation, or zeal. Failing that ya just stay away from them and keep them away from you.”
Kumbaya, jr.I suspect that the terrorists would agree.
Yup gster.
The “poster”? that followed you proves that.
Cal Thomas is about as fucking stupid as it’s possible to be. Or as fucking dishonest. I can’t quite decide which.
Al Qaeda taking over Iraq? Yeah, fucking right, Cal. I can just see Sistani and Al Sadr taking orders from some foreign-born insurgent–preferrably a Saudi. Ignorant, drum-beating American conservatives should have to answer to editors before putting such stupid shit into the public discourse as a way of whipping up the base.
Speaking of the base, the runner up for fucking stupidity, this morning, goes to Freetwood for using the term “the terrorists” as a mass noun.
Good post, cf. You are an excellent representative of your party.
You people do have a way with words.
You people have a way with Treason.
Freetwood,
And you, too, represent your “party” excellently. You appear to comment on my style, while having nothing of substance to say about the substance. Bravo!
This blog has nothing in common with the Korean blogs. It’s all civil around here.Here is some substance for you:fuck fuck fuckshit shit shit
fleetwood,
If you really think, as your post suggests, that there is a single unified group known as “The Terrorists,” who can be intelligently described and understood using such a term, then defend this claim.
The issue of profanity is, frankly, quite beside the point. Defend your ideas if you can.
CF
They stripped the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
And then threaten us with their mythical propagandic “terrorism” crap.
Their “end-days” stops a rope.
The are not “single” or “unified”, but terrorists they are.I am sure they can defend themselves without your help.
Anybody remember the Monty Python bit where the guy goes into an office where “arguments” is stenciled on the door, and asks, “is this where I go for an argument”?Of course, the guy behind the desk, being an expert at arguing, replies “NO”.And the argument is on.Anybody remember that bit, huh?Yeah, that bit is cool.I like that bit.
Is this the thread for arguments?
The word was used to describe the Palestinians who were fighting to keep their homes, farms, families and land.
It is a misnomer.
So many Iraq experts here. Most so sure nothing bad will happen if we just leave Iraq that will affect us over here. After all, there is an ocean between us and those terroris… er uh angry radical Islamic men.
That might have been true 30 years ago but it ain’t now. No matter how much we close our eyes and wish it away. It is what it is and we have to deal with it.
I ‘m gonna wait on what the Iraq Study Group (or whatever it’s called) comes up with. And as sticky as this wicket is, the bigger threats are North Korea and Iran and their terroris… er eh angry radical Islamic men who hate America connections. What a happy thought.
fleetwood,
And that statement by you, calling Ed and me “defenders” of terrorists, crosses the line by defaming my character.
Good thing for you that I’m a big enough boy not to call in the editors–or an attorney, for that matter.
Wingnuts like you, freepwood, simply do not get it.
Treason is a serious matter.
To outlander’s list I would add Syria, and Saudi Arabia, home to the Wahabis. Indonesia might make my list, too, in the future. I have temporarily removed Lybia from my list, subject to review.
CF
Two more Zionists just jumped in. Take away their precious “terrorism” and the bastards come out of the woodwork.
cf-Go ahead, big talker. Bring it. I dare you to call editors or lawyers or your mommy.libs = defenders of terrori.. er .. religion of peace
Guerilla is a more representative word for the folks killing our troops. Just not as fun to say. And it is how we defeated the British many moons ago.
The study group has posted its findings to both Bush and the congress. Stay the course seems to be the word.
I am a conservative and support Bush as the president, but the stay the course thing isn’t working.
I understand the reservations about a time line, but if we don’t force the limp dick gov’t in place there to put their big boy panties on, we’ll be there forever w/o change.
alQuada might have a chance to take over in the Sunni area. They have done a good job on entering the vacuum Bush created for them.
MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!
World Wars I & II were prosecuted by military professionals with appropriate training, education and experience in the art of warfare in theater. We won. Korea and Viet Nam were prosecuted by politicians, many of whom were never even recruits, let alone “buck private grunts” from 8,000 miles away. We lost. If the war in Iraq and Afghanistan was a horse race, where would you put your money. It’s a no-brainer to me.
Colin Powell, Tommy Franks, & John Abizad are professionals. Dubya, Hillary, & Levin couldn’t organize an outing to Sonic.
Yeah, JR, it’s pretty obvious that Cal’s gone off his medications … again!
Fleetwood you’re getting nervous. Calm down or the next thing you’ll be calling us out to the parking lot. You lost the argument, just live with it and your Zionists buddies.
terrorism is just another myth.
The Arabs are not angry because of their religion, they’re angry about being murdered and having the homes bulldozed.
HAHAHA
I finally get to say it…
Ed you ignorant SLUT !!!
The Muslims have been killing over there religion for hundreds of years.
***THEIR religion***
Terrorism is far from a myth. Was 9/11 a phantom operation. Never really happened?
These guys hate us for who we are and what we believe in.
The question that was not openly posed by our leaders in government and media to Usama Bin Ladin, to be heard by the American people, and for Bin Ladin’s response to be heard by the American people, with both question and response DIGESTED by the American people was:
WHAT ARE YOU AND THOSE WHO FOLLOW YOU TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH IN THIS ATTACK?
Secondly, we needed to ask, and listen to the answer to this question:
WHAT DO YOU THOSE WHO FOLLOW YOU WANT THE UNITED STATES TO DO?
If he said, “We wish to destroy the United States, because we of Islam hate freedom,” then that would be a call for war.
If he said, “We want you out of our oilfields, and for you to let us be sovereign in our own lands. You and Great Britain set up corrupt dictatorships. Get out, and let us deal with our corrupt rulers on our own,”then that might not have necessitated war.
We are dealing with problems created by patronistic colonial ideologies. Most of the modern map of the Middle East, including Israel, was created by the British, and then America was brought in as a partner. Maybe the Brits offered Americans a co-ownership share in an Age of Colonialism horse whose teeth warranted examination.
Thanks, CF.
I read Cal Thomas’s despicable rant in yesterday’s Eagle.
He lost me at “the terrorists are happy that the Democrats won.”
Not only is that an “unknown fact,” for he has no idea what makes “the terrorists” happy, but he apparently missed the video in which Bin Laden expressed his wish that Bush get re-elected in 2004 because his invasion of Iraq makes killing Americans so much easier.
As for me, I don’t let “terrorists” decide who I should vote for. I and the majority of Americans vote based on which candidate we think is better for the country.
Cal Thomas should just get used to the idea that a resounding majority last Tuesday told conservatives to kiss their collective ass.
Also, The Eagle really has a responsibility not to print total bullshit. Granted, 90 percent of what he says IS bullshit and the other 10 percent is horseshit.
But calling the American majority “terrorist lovers” because they voted Democratic is a new low even for him.
C’mon, Eagle! Sometimes editors are supposed to . . . you know . . . EDIT, as in choosing not to run something because it is so scurrilous.
rm6046
But Tommy Franks and Colin Powell are no longer here, are they?
Cheney and Bush could organize a trip to Sonic, but they’d order Whoppers.
Zing ! SolDevVB nailed your ass with that one, Ed !!! But, for what it’s worth, I’m mad as hell about Americans (military and civilians) being murdered and our buildings being bombed … and the Arab/Muslims are doing it ! What would you have me do, Ed? Be pissed off at the Isreali/Jews ? Or maybe the Hispanic/Catholics ?
“Was 9/11 a phantom operation. Never really happened?”
Yes, it happened. Thanks to our friends in Saudi Arabia and the regime we helped install in Kabul. Iraq had nothing to do with it.
BTW, I’d like to hear from the reich-wingers who The Eagle prints from the other side.
I mean we get Cal Thomas twice a week and on the other side we get . . . uh . . . who . . . David Broder?
Not even close.
You people would freak out if you had to read a real leftist–somebody like Alexander Cockburn for instance.
The poor Eagle would be SNOWED under with angry letters from your ilk, but meanwhile you view with complete equinimaty having Cal Thomas shoved down people’s throats twice a week.
fleettttttttttttttttttttttttttwood,
(Sigh) You go on really not getting it. And by “it” I mean what is and isn’t acceptable discourse.
Insulting people is free speech. Defaming them is prohibited by law. I insulted you. You defamed me and Ed. Duh.
And I point this out as a service to you, fleettwood, not as an implicit or explict threat. I don’t need anybody’s help–any lawyer, editor, or self-appointed thought policemen–to kick your rhetorical ass all over this blog.
Here’s Wikipedia on the issue of ’slander and libel’. Study hard, fleettwood.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slander_and_libel
Terrorism or Guerilla Warefare, had quite the impact on the ‘04 Spain elections.
“What would you have me do, Ed? Be pissed off at the Isreali/Jews ? Or maybe the Hispanic/Catholics ?”
No, I would expect you to be pissed off at the perpetrators – SAUDI! Not Indonesia. Not Albania. Not Kosovo. Not Iraq.
Heart: You’re right. They were just examples for illustration purposes only. Both of the lists could be expanded ad nauseum, past and present. Sorry if that was not clearly implicit.
Heartlander: I know sometimes you will say things to illicit a response. But really.
I don’t think Americans cared to interview Bin Laden about why he killed 3,000 Americans. And can you imagine if we asked and liberal appeasers found out about what he said? Teh reaction would be; “He is right, we are so bad. Just give him what he wants, just don’t hurt us again!”, with their tail between their legs.
And terrorism has prevailed.
Good point, Devo.
And since the Spaniards pulled out of Iraq?
No more attacks . . .
Funny how that works. People do things for REASONS, even terrorists.
Wow, who knew?
We can’t get mad at Saudi until we get off their oil tit.
Venezuelan oil will be an issue. We are trying to hook up with Russian oil. Until we get off the oil tit all together or find a massive supply outside the OPEC cartel, Saudi will be our buddies.
Al Qaeda is everywhere. They have no country. Afghanistan was partly right. We wiped out a lot of training camps.
Maybe instead of ousting governments, that should be our goal. If you harbor Guerillas then we will “visit” your country. Wipe out as many Guerilla assets as we can and dee dee.
cf-I will say it again. You and your kind want to blame America for 9/11 and you are willing to coddle the terrorists because, after all, it is America’s fault.Slander? Libel? Below me.
On this we largely agree sol. I would make one “fine-tune”: we will covertly ‘visit’ with as little damage as possible if you covertly cooperate with us. I suspect that there are situations where the ‘host country’ will be happy to see us take out a camp.
fleettwood – you might notice that it is the Bush bunch who continue to coddle the Saudis.
Zionists are crazy….Pure Funny-farm…
Cap’n
We weren’t in Iraq when 9/11 happened. The Islamic radicals will continue to target Westerners forever. In Iraq, out of Iraq, we are satan to them.
I don’t have the research, but I don’t remember, besides the election, Spain EVER having a problem with radical Islam.
Covert ops in foreign countries. Are you sure the Libs will buy off on this?
How bout we fine tune it one more notch. Those folks we find at the camps are ours to keep. ?
“So maybe instead of pointing fingers, we should be comming up with workable solutions. There are some very bright minds here. Use them.”
From the responses in this thread, My above statement has proven to be (mostly) incorrect.
The last time I looked, the Saudis were Arab/Muslims … just like Iraqis, Iranians, and the Syrians . They all hate us. They all want to kill us. The main reason the Saudis are “on the radar” more prominently is they’ve got the money. The countries who have let Al Queda and the Taliban operate with their Saudi mercenaries are no better than the terrorists. If you’re there and you’re innocent, and you don’t want to be a victim of “collateral damage”, get the hell out of the line of fire or the areas being bombed. Or get the hell out of the whole god damned middle East, just like multitudes of Jews did in Germany while it was possible, and many, many did, even when it was considered impossible. News flash, Abdul … if you’re there and you aren’t part of the underground fighting the goat fuckers, just like we are, you are part of the problem and part of the target.
http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/2003/10/29/medical_system_is_leading_cause_of_death_and_injury_in_us.htm
New York, New York – New information has been presented showing the degree to which Americans have been subjected to injury and death by medical errors. The results of seven years of research reviewing thousands of studies conducted by the NIA now show that medical errors are the number one cause of death and injury in the United States.
According to the NIA’s report, over 784,000 people die annually due to medical mistakes. Comparatively, the 2001 annual death rate for heart disease was 699,697 and the annual death rate for cancer was 553,251.
Oh look here doctors kill way more people than terrorists. Should we round up all the doctors and put them in club gitmo?
rm60-46, you are clueless. No they don’t “all want to kill us”, but there are small groups of fanatics who do. 15 of the 19 hijackers on 9/11 were saudis, so why didn’t we invade Saudi Arabia after we screwed up the Afghanistan situation?
Is a prerequisite of being a “conservative” getting a lobotomy? Because it seems to be judging from the folks that post conservative views here.
WOODY, GODDAMNIT.What the hell do ya’ mean blame america and coddle terrorists.You sound like BillO, who is plainly off his wealthy rocker.I’ve never blamed america, and I don’t know any terrorists to coddle.
rm6046 – Iranians are not Arabs. They are Persians. And Arabs are no more homogeneous that Europeans – there is a huge difference between Poland and England just as there is a huge difference between Iraq and Saudi Arabia. Iraq was secular; Saudi the home of the militant Wahabi sect.
Having spent way more time in hospitals in the last couple years than I have cared to, Morg, you just may be onto something there ! :)
hmmmm…is right.That’s kinda like calling a Chinese national a Japanese.Not good. Might get ya’ punched or sumpin’.
Meanwhile, more MISSION ACCOMPLISHED in Bush’s Iraq:
“Iraq sectarian strife imperils entire regionAnalysts say civil war is a reality, but real worry is that chaos will spread
BAGHDAD, Iraq – While American commanders have suggested that civil war is possible in Iraq, many leaders, experts and ordinary people in Baghdad and around the Middle East say it is already underway, and that the real worry ahead is that the conflict will destroy the flimsy Iraqi state and draw in surrounding countries.
Whether the U.S. military departs Iraq sooner or later, the United States will be hard-pressed to leave behind a country that does not threaten U.S. interests and regional peace, according to U.S. and Arab analysts and political observers.
“We’re not talking about just a full-scale civil war. This would be a failed-state situation with fighting among various groups,” growing into regional conflict, Joost Hiltermann, Middle East project director for the International Crisis Group, said by telephone from Amman, Jordan.
“The war will be over Iraq, over its dead body,” Hiltermann said.
“All indications point to a current state of civil war and the disintegration of the Iraqi state,” Nawaf Obaid, an adjunct fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies and an adviser to the Saudi government, said last week at a conference in Washington on U.S.-Arab relations.
Anxiety over any division of IraqAs Iraq’s neighbors grapple with the various ideas put forward for solving the country’s problems, they uniformly shudder at one proposal: dividing Iraq into separate regions for Sunnis, Shiites and Kurds, and then speeding the withdrawal of U.S. forces.
“To envision that you can divide Iraq into three parts is to envision ethnic cleansing on a massive scale, sectarian killing on a massive scale,” Prince Turki al-Faisal, the Saudi ambassador to the United States, said Oct. 30 at a conference in Washington. “Since America came into Iraq uninvited, it should not leave Iraq uninvited.”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15721405/
BushDaBum has really created a mess! Deliberately and with malice aforethought.
tracy-”We are dealing with problems created by patronistic colonial ideologies. Most of the modern map of the Middle East, including Israel, was created by the British, and then America was brought in as a partner. Maybe the Brits offered Americans a co-ownership share in an Age of Colonialism horse whose teeth warranted examination.”
Posted by: heartlander | November 16, 2006 at 10:06 AM
Would you call the above “Blame America?”I would.
*We can all likely agree that a 10 year civil war in Iraq is not going to be a good thing for that country and its neighbors.
*We can also likely agree that the U.S. government or military is not having a useful impact in Iraq. Yes, we are keeping the lid from blowing off of the place, but I mean useful in the sense that we working toward turning the country over to the Iraqis.
*We can also agree, most likely, that the U.S. and the rest of the world has an economic interest (read “oil”) in not seeing a wider sectarian war in the middle east.
*I would further think that most reasonable people would conclude that it is impossible to kill every last terrorist or potential terrorist.
It has been rumored that the Baker/Hamilton Iraq group are going to recommend that we enlist the aid of Syria, Iran, and maybe Saudi Arabia in helping stablize Iraq. It would seem to me that those folks would have a direct and immediate interest in supplying this help. Condi Rice (likely with the input of GWBush) has already voiced a reluctance to use these neighbors’ help. While the plan might conlict with Bush/Rice/neocon ideological purity, I don’t see how there can be much choice in the matter.
Any other thoughts on this?
hmmmm
Weren’t you just bashing the Saudis and now you’re posting their quotes?
hmmmmmmm: If it looks like a duck, and it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck ……. what can I say? Historically, you have a point. But making those distinctions is like saying, “He’s not an American, he’s a Kansan or a Georgian or a Nevadan.” It’s a meaningless distraction to the issue at hand. And Dave, I don’t know why we didn’t invade Saudi Arabia … wouldn’t have gotten any arguments from me. It certainly isn’t the oil, because post-invasion, we would have controlled the oil. As far as I’m concerned, if we’re going to go after them, go after all of them and let God sort them out. And, this may sound naive, but I happen to believe that if we had just launched three of the largest non-nuclear weapons we have on three major population centers in Iraq, Iran, Saudi, Sudan, North Korea, wherever, mix or match, … and then said, “Who wants to be next?” “OK, nobody? That’s fine. Now, fellows, there’s a new sheriff in town, and we’re going to do things our way!” NO loss of American life, some bad press to fade (so what?), and according to the liberal pollsters, 95% of the world hates us already, so BFD ! The U.N. raises hell, and we go in an say, “Hey, maybe we were a little hasty, and we won’t do it anymore, but we’re staying in charge!” And that would be the end of it. The old USSR is no longer a power, and China is as sick of this bullshit interferring with the world economy, which interferes with their economy … they’d bluster for image, and be glad it was over.
Rm,That sounds like fun, but then we would be wide open for a similar attack. Both Iran and Korea are becoming nuclear powers (and no one is really doing anything about it). What would keep them from doing their first live run on DC or NY?
SolDevVB,
Spain had a big problem with Islam. Moors held Spain’s most valuable southern lands. Funny thing, the Muslims were very tolerant of Judaism and Christianity. But the power-lusting Catholic Church could not abide this successful experiment in multiculturalism. It both drove the Moors out, and then persecuted Jews who would not convert to Catholicism.
Most people in most lands are tolerant, if allowed to be. Polls taken among Israelis and Palestinians have persistently shown that most Israeli citizens favor granting Palestinians full citizenship, while most Palestinians believe they can live with Jews in peace. The first native Israel-born prime minister, Itzaak Rabin, who rose through the military ranks to three-star-general rank, and fought Arabs, realized in his greying years that peace and Israeli-Palestinian coexistence was achievable. He was assassinated–by a radical-right Israeli.
I had an Israeli college roommate, and a graduate-student Israeli friend before, during and after the 1973 war. They were rational, smart people. They wanted solutions based on understanding, not barbaric impulses.
George Bush just visited Vietnam. Vietnam is still a Communist nation. But what do most Vietnamese want? They want a country that’s more like America. Think about what could have happened, if America had responded positively to WWII Allied Forces supporter Ho Chi Minh’s request for aid in overthrowing the French oppressors. We saved France from the Nazis. France was indebted to us. We could have interceded and told the French to leave. But we didn’t. Instead we tried to assume their colonialist role. And we failed. Even so, the Vietnamese people don’t hold it against us that we almost ruined their country. That’s an astounding fact, perhaps even a miracle, whose lesson we need to digest.
We have several million Mexicans living here illegally. But guess what? They were INVITED here. With what? JOBS.
America is a very funny place. Our capitalist-minded forefathers didn’t mind “porous borders” when that meant INVADING OTHER PEOPLE’S LANDS. Too greed-lusting capitalists, borders are a mere abstraction subject to fluid alteration. If it means invading three New World continents to take other people’s territory, plus Old World Asia, if it means bringing in slaves from Africa, and low-wage peasants from Europe, and now Mexico, if it means offshoring jobs to low-labor cost Latin American and Asian nations, if it means sucking fossil-fuels from these nations, there’s nothing wrong with these exploits.
Of course, it does require putting little non-capitalist people through the maws of death machines. Little people who don’t have dreams of becoming millionaires, much less billionaires. People who “merely” have dreams of raising families, of having adequate food and shelter, some time for recreation, and friends and love. Maybe a better life for their children than they got themselves.
FEAR !!! Since the end of WWII, we’ve been a whole lot of mouth and damned little do ! After our triple launch scenerio, the rest of these bastards, almost all of whose economies are at least 95% dependent upon us, would step back and say, “These guys are serious as a heart attack ! We’d better get in line.” And your point about Iran and North Korea is perfect… we’ve just identified Targets No. 1 & 2 !!
So, rm, just because they are non-white we should feel free to exterminate anyone and everyone. After all, “they all look alike” – ain’t that right!
” If it looks like a duck, and it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck ……. ”
Yes, rm, you advocate state-sponsored terrorism.
rm6046 the ruskies used iron fist tactics in Afganistan how did that work for them?
That’s a compound question, so it’s impossible to answer simply. Par 1, “Pretty much, though color has nothing to do with it.” Part 2, “I absolutely advocate this country’s right to strike pre-emptively to protect and save American lives.”
We probably all look pretty much alike to them, too ! Live with it.
rm,
I wish we could do those things. People piss me off too. The freakin North Koreans want money from us and will get it. I’d rather pay them off with a detonating MOAB, but it just isn’t feasible.
Back off it brother. These guys are going to eat you alive.
Interesting read this morning folks – sounds like a few have gotten into the caffeine a little too hard.
A couple of points:
Looking at our selves and determining whether our actions have caused adverse reactions is not “blaming America first.” It is intelligent. NO ONE on the left is excusing terrorists, but looking at our policies is both prudent and necessary. To try to sum up the motives of the terrorists as “they hate us for our freedoms” is ridiculous.
Furthermore, there are many brands of terrorists, all with different motivations. Regardless, the war on terrorists cannot be won militarily – it has to be won politically. Wiping 1.3 billion people off the face of the Earth is just not a viable strategy.
Iraq has descended into a civil war that is likely to last for ten years or more. America’s presence only exacerbates the violence. The Iraqis, by choice, have not stood up and will not, since both sides, Shia and Sunni, have a vested interest in the outcome. If you have been paying attention, the US is losing a 100 or so soldiers a month. The Iraqis are killing thousands of Iraqis per month. We have started a civil war that is impossible for us to contain militarily.
Before some of you go ballistic, claiming that I am defaming our armed forces, keep in mind that these folks have 1,400 years of pent up hatred for one another. There is nothing that we can do to stop it now. It is up to the Iraqis for find a solution.
The War on Terror(ists) was in Afghanistan, where al Qaeda had their headquarters. It would be a much better use of resources for us to concentrate on Afghanistan, where the Taliban has made a comeback, than to waste lives and treasure in Iraq.
“We weren’t in Iraq when 9/11 happened. The Islamic radicals will continue to target Westerners forever. In Iraq, out of Iraq, we are satan to them.”
See, this is what makes Devo, randomnumber, and HotWood so dangerous.
Anybody who wants to study the motivation of terrorists immediately gets labelled “America hater.”
Your premise is FALSE, Devo. Al Qaeda actually loved us when we were helping them kick the Soviets out of Afghanistan.
They didn’t hate us until 1992.
America and Americans were never targetted by the group known as Al Qaeda before the first World Trade Center attack in 1993.
Why is that, Devo? According to you, “Islamofacists” have always considered us as “Satan.”
It’s a lot easier to just go with that line than actually thinking.
However the truth is simply this–the United States stationed troops in the land of the “two holies” (Mecca and Medina) and KEPT THEM THERE during and after the first Gulf War.
The Saudis and the US promised the radical Islamic leaders that the troops would not stay after the war’s conclusion. They strongly opposed American troops on Saudi soil, but were willing to tolerate it as long as it could be justified.
When it couldn’t, they went ballistic.
Cause to effect.
Such a simple concept, and so hard for the conservative mind to grasp.
This isn’t the second coming, it’s not the end times, no Armageddon.
It’s just stupid hegemony and its logical consequence.
Morg: Your point about the Russians and Afghanistan is well made. However,simulaneous with all of that, the wheels were coming off the Soviet Union and their economy was in shambles. They were up to their ass in alligators, and priorities constantly being rearranged … we call it “management by brushfire”. So, you could be right, but we’ll never know because there were too many other factors affecting any singular outcome there.
They have always hated us! Isn’t that a moon god sun god thing that Pat pass the plate Robertson preaches
“the wheels were coming off the Soviet Union”
The wheels came off of the Soviet Union in large part because of the ten year occupation of Afghanistan and the al Qaeda/Taliban resistance. The Soviets spend untold lives and treasure on a losing cause. They got themselves into an unwinnable situation and lost the state ass, so to speak.
Sound familiar? We are 44 months into a losing cause in Iraq. How much more are we willing to lose?
I gotta disagree with you rm we have a lot of problems here.This isn’t 1950 were a net debtor nation, we have hollowed out our industrial base.Were a service economy.Our military is being ground down in Iraq and we don’t have enough troops with an all volunteer military.
In addition to our troops being in Saudi Arabia, bin Laden viewed the U.S. as the “distant enemy” because of our support for the Saudi royal family and Israel. A motive that bin Laden has never directly acknowledged (that I am aware of, anyway) is that in the business of terrorism your actions need to generate media coverage. The death of 3,000 innocent Somalis does not get as much coverage as the death of 3,000 innocent Americans.
Terrorism is effective in changing democratic government’s behavior is another reason as to why it is used.
A somewhat unrelated question, has anybody heard anything from bin Laden since the story in September ‘06 that he supposedly died of in late August ‘06? I half-way expected he would put out another video during the ‘06 election season.
Radical Islamics have been burning our flag and calling us satan for decades. I don’t remember that post specifying Al Qaeda but radical Islamists.
Who called you an American hater? I didn’t.
Be it Al Qaeda or the Taliban or whichever guerilla group raises its head, they have been dubbed terrorists and have sworn their hatred of Americans.
So in your many studies, have you not seen this? That the Western influence is seen as evil to the Islamics?
“Western influence” is not seen as evil as Islamists. Hiwever, CUFI/PNAC are.
Good grief Cal, can’t you be a good conservative and limit the public indulgence of your paranoid tendencies to the ol’ flouride-in-the-water-supply chestnut?
These guys are the guys that got us into Iraq in the first place.
Hilarious, the idea of madrassas financed by Wahabi-sect Islamists springing up — unnoticed (!) — all over the US. Yeah, right, and be sure to watch out for the monkeys flying out of your butt, Cal.
Cal is a cadaver – he wouldn’t notice if a monkey flew out of his butt.
BTW – who does Cal’s hair – Shinnola?
Is Cal saying that Al Qaida knows where Saddam’s non-existent WMD’s are?
“The hate for the West swells like a fire fed by the wind.”http://www.hvk.org/articles/1102/118.html
http://www.voteswagon.com/2006/03/07/islam-why-do-muslims-hate-the-west/
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/main1893879.shtml
Poll shows Muslims in Britain are the most anti-western in Europehttp://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,1804078,00.html
Muslim extremist perpetrated evil against innocent victims in the name of Allah.http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=21364
To the infidels of the West: Constitution for the new Islamic Republic of EU and USA is under construction. We will fight the infidel to death.http://ussneverdock.blogspot.com/2005/02/islam-waging-war-against-world.html
When you have a pimple on your nose, you don’t “cure” it by having your face removed.
Radical Islam is only a very small part of the Islamic world. Yes, like a pimple, it’s disgusting and unsightly, but the solution is not to destroy everything around it.
Americans, and our government, need to reach out to moderate Muslims. The current course is NOT working and more of the same is not going to make it any better.
Our current issue in the Middle East is largely due to the fact that we have angered the moderate Muslim populations with unconditional support for Israel, as witnessed by our veto of the unprovoked Israeli attack on civilian Palestinians.
The only “cure” for the Middle East is a self-supporting Palestinian homeland.
You don’t treat a pimple with a chainsaw.
“veto of the unprovoked Israeli attack on civilian Palestinians.”
That should have been “our veto of the UN resolulution condemming the unprovoked Israeli attack on civilian Palestinians.”
I tyipe bouter thwn I thyk…..
“Final push in Iraq”; 20,000 more troops; additional resources; a four point plan.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1948748,00.html
SolDevVB,
“Poll shows Muslims in Britain are the most anti-western in Europe”
So what’s your solution? Do you want to drop multiple “detonating MOAB’s” on Britain?
WSC – you could also have included the ‘emergency’ shipment of cluster bombs to be dumped over large swaths of former US ally Lebanon. Civilains continue to die because of the millions of bomblets we sent there with the express purpose to kill them.
Tony Blair …
“Mr Blair said: “The biggest single factor in getting moderate Muslim countries to support a new Iraq would be if there was progress on Israel and Palestine, as part of the strategy for the Middle East as a whole.” He said “the way to stop the radicalisation of moderate Muslim opinion is to have a positive strategy of resolving that issue” and this would also be the way to deal with Iran since it would take away their ability to exploit Muslim opinion.”
He is absolutely correct. Too bad BushDaBum doesn’t see it.
hmmm, as they would say in the House of Commons: “Here, here (or is that “Hear, hear”?).
It’s interesting how much “Favorable Opinions of the U.S.” have dropped since 2000.http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=252
Well, someone threw the green wood on that fire…
I just saw that Mr. Murtha himself has been “redeployed”.
Got voted out of the Majority leader position.
oops…
democracy in action …
maybe Armed Services Committee?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061116/ap_on_go_co/congress_leaders“Murtha will chair the powerful defense subcommittee with responsibility for the war in Iraq and the Pentagon budget.”
Wonder if that was the plan after all?
Not a bad result at all. A strong war veteran who has fought for his country in defense. A hell of a lot better than what we have had all these years!
Remember during Bush 41’s presidency when Americans were talking about “the peace dividend”?
The Soviet Union had fallen, so we no longer had to spend 5-7 percent of GDP on the military, right?
Then the godsend of Islamic terrorism springs up and PRAISE ALLAH! we need that new artillery system after all, and that means all the old military contractors and a lot of new ones get to belly up to the corporate welfare trough.
All the terrorist attacks America has suffered in the past–the kidnapping of embassy personnel in Teheran, the marine barracks in Lebanon, the Khobar Towers, 9-11–have all been a direct result of the United States imposing itself militarly in the region.
In Iraq for instance, we help overthrow the duly elected Prime Minister and installed the Shah. That fiasco gave us the CIA coined term: “blowback.”
Islamic fundamentalists don’t hate us for our freedom, our life-style or our technology.
They hate us for our policies regarding their countries.
BTW, Bin Laden fully succeeded in getting American troops out of Arabia. Bush pulled them out some six months following 9-11, heigh ho . . .
Iraq should be Iran.
I think Bush made that error too . . .
Back in Iraq; we helped the British install a “monarch” that led to the rise of Baathism and Saddam.
Hey guys ! Sorry, had to work for a while! Please back off on WSC and SolDevVB, I’m the bomb dropper! And no, hmmmmmmmm, I wouldn’t drop a bomb on London. But I am not going to apologize for their (or Germany’s) open immigration system since WWII. It’s their resulant problem, and they have to solve it, just like we have to solve ours. And before you ask, I’m not on anybody else’s time but mine … so let’s not go there.
Britain is suffering the legacy of their empire. Many residents of their colonies carried British passports; particularly if they had cooperated in the colonial governments.
True, friend.
Is this what victory looks like?
2,200 more Marines deploying to western Iraq
BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) — As many as 2,200 more Marines are being deployed to Iraq’s volatile Anbar province, U.S. Central Command officials told CNN Thursday.
Also Thursday, the Iraqi Interior Ministry issued an arrest warrant for Hareth al-Dhari, who heads the influential Sunni Association of Muslim Scholars, a group of top Sunni religious leaders, an Iraq military official said.
The warrant accuses al-Dhari of violating Iraq’s anti-terrorism law by inciting sectarian violence and killings, Brig. Gen. Abdul Karim Khalaf told CNN. Al-Dhari has been a fervent critic of Nuri al-Maliki’s Shiite-dominated government.
Meanwhile, insurgents gunned down nine people at a bakery in eastern Baghdad, among 15 people killed in attacks across the city Thursday, police said.
An aide to the minister of higher education said Thursday some of the dozens of men kidnapped Tuesday from a government research institute in Baghdad may have been tortured.
At least 70 of the hostages — some of whom were visitors to the facility — were still missing, the aide said.
Hostages who were released reported the torture, although the Interior Ministry said it had not received reports.
Three soldiers with Task Force Lightning were killed Wednesday in Iraq’s Diyala province, the U.S. military said Thursday. Two were killed by a roadside bomb, and the other was shot to death. All three were assigned to the Army’s 1st Cavalry Division.
The military also announced a U.S. soldier was shot and killed Tuesday in Baghdad. The soldier was a member of the Multinational Corps Iraq.
The deaths brought the number of U.S. troops killed in the war to 2,856. Seven U.S. civilian military contractors also have died.
Alarmed by the mass kidnapping at the research center, an Iraqi Cabinet member said Wednesday he might resign.
“I have to protect my people,” Higher Education Minister Abed Dhiyab al-Ajili told CNN.
In the kidnapping, dozens of gunmen in Iraqi National Police uniforms entered the Ministry of Higher Education and Scientific Research and Scholarships and Cultural Relations Directorate building in central Baghdad.
http://www.netscape.com/viewstory/2006/11/16/attacks-kill-13-in-iraq-4-us-troops-die/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F2006%2FWORLD%2Fmeast%2F11%2F16%2Firaq.main%2Findex.html%3Feref%3Drss_topstories
Hmmmmm: That sucks, no question. But am I wrong here? I don’t care about news flashes or night-time news or anything that any of us can find on the internet. When we are discussing issues here … I want to know what “real” people are thinking, how you/they feel…all of us can get get “canned” news (from God knows how many sources). I want to know what YOU and all of the other people here think and feel. If I didn’t, I’d just watch Katie Couric and float along without a fucking clue! And I’m not running or considering EVER running for anything. I’m just a curious old man, who is not afraid of letting anyone know who I am, if they’re interestested.
How I feel – Bush the crackhead has deliberately and with malice aforethought invaded a country and gotten us stuck in a quagmire. On the right I hear calls for wholesale genocide to achieve a “victory” that I know will lead to more terrorism by the survivors. I see civil war unleashed by our idiot-in-chief costing hundreds of thousands of lives. I see a Shiite area dominated by Iran. I see a Kurdistan at war with Turkey. And I see an alQuada failed state in Anbar etc.
I don’t know what it will take to extricate us from this mess that the crackhead created. I can only hope that we can enlist Iraq’s neighbors to fix what we deliberately broke.
I also hope that we will find some way to NOT have Lebanon and the Palestinians as our enemies. Perhaps if we were not enemies to them it would help. We should help enforce the cease-fire in Lebanon that we (via our proxy state) violate daily. We should support the legitimate rights of the Palestinians to independence and freedon which we now oppose. We should support peace-keepers in Palestine which we now oppose. We should support our “roadmap” which we now oppose.
There is no easy or graceful way out of Iraq. It is a quagmire and it is not going to take “more of the same” to get us out. A polite “excuse me and an exit, stage left” is not a viable option.
It’s kind of like a fart in church. In this case, Bush has let one rip that caused the minister to faint and the choir director to toss his cookies.
Regardless, Bush has made one stinking mess and now we have to deal with it.
Clearing the air is not going to be easy, but we better start now.
Tracy, Just one small question? You wrote in response to one of my post last week that you went to a Christian College. My grandchildren are just now making college decisions and if your language is any indication of the education you received I want to be sure and mark your college off their lists.
Thanks
Sorry ’bout the delay … had to run a quick errand.
1. Bush is not a crackhead. Let’s try to agree that he is not “The brightest candle in the chandelier of life”. Fair enough ?2. Civil war in Iraq is enevitable. It’s been going on for 5000 years. Whether or not we had been there is of no difference. We should have NEVER BEEN THERE ! It is one of those “What the fuck were they thinking?” deals.3. The Kurds desire nothing more than just to be left alone…by the Iraqis, by the Turks, by the Iranians, by the United States.4. The only way I know to exdricate ourselves from this mess is get the hell out. Send our young men and women home, and let the devil take the hindmost, as they say. Or, as we said in the South where I spent most of my adult life, “My dog ain’t in this fight!”5. I am Jewish. I am a lawyer. Two strikes already! One of my closest friends was born and raised in Lebanon, and we are heartbroken with what is going on there. The terorrists have taken over their country. The people of Lebanon are not our enemies…they are victims.6. The Palestinians are victims, also. MOST ISREALIS, and all intelligent Jews I know, support their legitimate rights to live there. We support a comingled government to support the rights of all. We do not support and will not support an independent seperatist nation on either side. It would be a blueprint for disaster. Going back to the South, “that just ain’t gonna’ fly!” The “roadmap”, as I understand it, doesn’t either.
Thank you for your open honesty.
ksgrm: Trust me on this one. Tracy uses those words for effect; simply to illustrate how absurd some of these profane ranters and ravers are. Someone, maybe Oscar Wilde, but I’m not sure, said, “Profanity is the effort of a feeble mind trying to make a point”. I’m damned sure guilty as charged. Aren’t we all from time to time?
bin Laden and Al Zawahiri are falling in the ranking of most influencial Islamic extremists. This article suggests some ways to improve their campaign to retake the top spot.
http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2006/11/no-one-puts-bin-laden-in-the-corner.php
Well put, rm6046.
I think what is forgotten is the fact this world is made up of more than americans: it is a dna gene pool of descendents from one source.
If an Iraqui family member is killed by whomever, what is that family going to think of the killer? I would bet they would be referred to as terrorists. And by definition, they are right.
The ubsurdity that terrorism can be wiped out by killing terrorists is pure nonsense. When killing “the enemy” in a combat situation, Innocent civilians will also be killed. Who killed them? Do you really think it matters to the family of the slain? The taliban did it; Sadaam did it; Al Quida did it; and the families of the innocent dead in Iraq think we did it. Does that make us any different because we are Americans? Not to them it doesn’t, and from that seed, more will learn to hate us and hence, more terrorists.
When Bush and co make moronic statements like “A vote for Democrats is a vote for terrorism”, what do you think terrorist organizations are going to think when Democrats get elected? Talk about playing into the hands of terrorists. For that statement alone, Bush should be impeached. It was made for the sole purpose of dividing a nation. Politics be damned. Tell me that does something for the “war” effort!
I’ll tell you what, there hasn’t been much of a change in Washington: the old players of both parties are still there and still owned. Me, I’ll tell you what: the only thing I believe in anymore is the blues. It ain’t never going to lie to you.
JM: Thanks. And no, nothing has changed. And that’s the saddestpart of all of it.
They hates our Freedoms! Game, Set, Four! Bush Jr.
Thoughtful post J M Walker
You asked early on for thoughtful posts. I tried. A few others tried too.
The new gotcha line among the stay the course crowd is “Do you want us to win in Iraq?”
They weild it like a dagger. It basically invites the person asked into a rhetorical trap. You answer yes and you are then expected to ask no further questions, fall in line and “stay the course”. Any other answer and you are against the troops, the country, hot dogs, mom and apple pie.
The right answer to that question?
“Tell me what winning in Iraq looks like.”
Another little trick the blind following the blind use?
“Well what would you do? What’s your answer?”
J M Walker invited thoughtful posts to answer that one. I gave one answer. Tried to anyway. There are other good answers here too.
But thing is? History has already told us the painful answer.
No occupying force has ever defeated an armed and determined insurgency. The exmaples roll back from the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan through the French and American revolutions and into the furthest reaches of history.
Iraq will have to be what the people who live in the boundaries of that made up nation decide for themselves it will be. Getting there is going to be bloody. We can do our best to mitigate the bloodshed. We can guarantee Iraq against foreign aggressors.
So to all of you who dare to answer “What does victory look like?” honestly? You tell ME how we get there.
Then tell bush. He could use the help just now.
Steve: If you would kindly put a simple declarative or interrogative sentence together for us, I’m sure that I and several others would be happy to respond.
J.R. — Whatever you are trying to say is incomprehensible … save those thoughts until tomorrow. Right now you couldn’t spell “cat”, if I spotted you the “C” and the “T”. Have another one, and hit the sack. Good nighr.
Yes well rm
I’m sorry for your difficulty with comprehension. That would be your problem not mine.
rm:
1. I’m not sure about that. He is showing symptoms consistent with effects of past coke use.
2. It didn’t have to be inevitable. We deliberately destroyed the structures that were holding thongs together.
3. Turkey does not want an independent Kurdistan; also the Kurds want similar independence for their brothers across the borders in Turkey, Syria and Iran.
4. Agreed. But we will then have to face the consequences of our deliberate destruction there. That will include incredible carnage and the establishment of an alQuada-leaning failed state. Also increased influence by Iran and Syria.
5. Israel actively opposed the introduction of peace-keepers into Lebanon. Then, in retaliation for a MILITARY operation by Hizbollah Israel deliberately attacked civilian infrastructure. The millions of cluster bombs deliberately left in south Lebanon is an example. Also, Israel had long been holding hundreds of Lebanese citizens hostage.
6. The Israeli government opposes a commingled single state as that would entail allowing all Palestinians to vote. “Israelis” would then become a minority. Israeli settlers covet the land and the water resources; the Settlers control the government.
By the way, one of my lawyer clients is Jewish; he has been known to bring his Menorah to our annual Christmas party. (I told him if I burn myself on a candle I’ll sue! ;^))