If you want to cut down on crime, you put away the crooks, right?
Wrong, according to this story in the Washington Post, which notes that in three states where prison populations swelled by about 170 percent over a decade, crime also increased, by as much as 14 percent. New York City, on the other hand, has seen a 70 percent drop in homicides — all while reducing its prison population by about one-third. A similar trend has emerged in San Diego and in Canada.
Even the experts aren’t sure why more prisons can mean more crime, although there are a number of possibilities: locking up drug offenders instead of treating them, the tendency of prisons to be crime incubators, and the social restrictions on released felons that appear to encourage recidivism.
We’ll always need prison cells, but the numbers suggest we may not need as many as we thought.
Posted by Dave Knadler
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30 Comments
So you are suggesting that we not lock up drug offenders? Let’s see how you feel when one of them take someone or something from you.
How about reducing crime by getting rid of archaic laws that punish people for victimless crimes? Here’s some crimes that can get someone facing a judge: breastfeeding, smoking pot, walking drunk, fishing with a fishing license but not with a trout license, taking old beer bottles in your car to be recycled, carrying bean snappers, reading Supreme Court decisions in public, buying beer on a Sunday, selling porn next to a church.
Yes, all these activities are illegal but do they do any harm? Nope. Some politicians just love to pass pointless laws. Of course when it comes to bribing these politicians it’s perfectly legal, they just write laws calling it lobbying. I say we let some of the harmless criminals out of jail and use that extra space to house corrupt politicians who won’t let us carry bean snappers.
What the hell is a bean snapper anyway?
“Let’s see how you feel when one of them take someone or something from you.”
I believe that’s called “theft.”
But the utility (let alone the morality) of pre-emptive law enforcement (never mind the validity of the argument that drug user = thief) has always been questionable.
I know a lot of drug users, but I don’t know any thieves. However, Congress if full of thieves who don’t use drugs.
Doug,Was it Twain who said that “The only clear criminal class in America is Congress?”
Doug,Was it Twain who said that “The only clear criminal class in America is Congress?”
Hard time is a one-size-fits-all solution to crime; meaning, of course that it doesn’t fit anything well. Lawbreaking should be punished, but we need to re-examine alternatives to prison time for all but violent criminals.Crime victims shouldn’t have to foot the bill, in the form of taxes, to keep offenders locked up. Further, simply locking them away only puts off the problem until they get out, and then it returns-with interest! Rehabilitation needs to be explored to find effective methods. Until then, we are the ones paying for their crimes!
Any news about the other 47 states? I’m not sure if data in 3 out of 50 states means anything at all.
Seems to me that criminals don’t do much time if they have the money for a good lawyer. The justice system in our country is a joke. It’s not fair to the poor and the rich can get away with almost anything.I don’t agree that drug use is a victimless crime, just ask anyone who was raised by a parent who was a drug addict or alcoholic. That can leave scars that last a lifetime.
Mary,Do you believe drug addiction or alcoholism is a health care or moral issue?
.morg asks the perennial queston – health care or moral issue?
The answer to which, unfortunately, depends upon the wealth and resources of the sufferer/criminal.
Someone will correct me if I’m wrong, but I think a ‘bean snapper’ is slang for a modified sling shot. But I recall them as being called beany snappers. Some were quite powerful and could inflict serious injury.
Maybe this is the result of the system locking up 3 strikes and your out law awhile back? I am not one to propose we don’t lock up prisoners but I fail to see why locking up a petty thief when it was his 3rd time is doing any good for society while we are releasing the murderers, rapists and child molesters early on parole?
The entire justice system is out of whack and it needs fixing but not by politicians! Politicians just vote for anything that their constituents think they want or want their lobbyists who are in the business of building prisons or maintaining prisons want.
I’ll ask another question,
Prevention or punishment? If a mental health issue leads to drug or alcohol addiction, which then leads to a criminal activity what should society do?
Finally, someone is willing to look at the damge done by jailing drug/alcohol users. These people are going to get out and then what? We as a society have consistently jailed more and more people for pot/alcohol in the last 10 years. What did they learn in jail? Hate, crime, lowered self confidence and all the emotional baggage added by the crimes committed in jail will take there toll on society as these people resurface when they are 50, 60, and 70. Yes, I think drug/alcohol is health care issue-medical and social. Deal with it before it overwhelms our SRS, homeless shelters, charity resources. 3 strikes your out. what a bunch of hookey. We will pay for this one in a big way.
I think the article is dead on the money. Often we as a society feel the harsher punishment is usually better, but I really don’t think it is.
It’s nearly impossible to tell who is going to reoffend and who won’t. And we can’t just give everyone a slap on the wrist. Hard time should be reserved for hard crimes- and we should also do what we can to reduce recidivism.
I have a neighbor who I grew up with, our parents used to do everything together. He went down for attempted 1st degree murder. The person he tried to kill was a friend of mine too. And it truly was one of the most heinous plots to kill someone for no reason I’ve ever known.
After serving 10 years needless to say none of us were happy to find that he moved in next door to me. His first time out he was still in prison mode, he made death threats, was drinking regularly, got into more trouble and was sent back for about a year.
He got out again, and was still not doing well. Was sent back.During this time I was so afraid of him I would NOT let my kids outside to play or anything while he was around. I was scared of some shoot out or something.
This time, he’s actually doing well. I can observe him pretty closely since he does live right next door. He’s working, people who would have NEVER spoke to him a few years ago are coming around. You can tell a difference just by how he’s acting. It’s like he’s finally grown up. He’s even making amends, offering to do things for people just because. I’m feeling safe enough to let our kids play together, and to even go over and hang out with the rest of the neighbors while he’s around.
Am I saying I trust him completely? No, that’s going to take a long time. But do I think that he should be punished for life for this thing he did when he was young? No. Not as long as he’s willing and able to acclimate back into society and do the right things. Boy it was iffy there for awhile if that was going to happen.
Not everyone on this board can say they have a convicted attempted murder living so closely to them. I can, and I can MOSTLY say I’m ok with that now. The worst thing I could do for this man is to continue to ostricize him and push him back further. He knows he has to earn his trust, it’s not something that will happen overnight. And he’s doing it.
I’m all for providing treatment for drug/alcohol addicts and not prison for the first-time offenders. But what if the same person is continually doing the same behavior? What do we do then?
On the mental illness issue, I feel that this person does not belong in prison no matter what because he/she was not in control of their behavior. They need treatment to help them attain a level of dignity that the person can sustain. If that’s not possible, then give long-term treatment. Of course, all of these treatment programs will cost money and therein lies the rub. Politicians don’t want to look like they are soft on crime and will vote for the ‘lock them up and throw away the key’ each and everytime.
But if we are truly a Christian nation (as the Christian Conservatives spout) then we need to at least try to provide humane treatment when we can.
Long-term mental health care.
Great
But we closed Winfield, etc., gave everybody a bottle of pills and said go take care of yourself. You’ll recognize who they are: The homeless folks you see sleeping in doorways. The bottles of pills run out eventually. It is a tough situation, but the fact is, there are people who can’t take care of themselves and we as citizens, whether we want to or not, have to take care of them. What we’re doing now doesn’t work.
Drug use is a behavioral problem with health issues.
As a society we regulate behavioral problems with jail/prison sentences.
With all the news about terrorists using drug profits to boost their income, I’m surprised more hasn’t been done.
Drug use is not merely a behavioral problem.
Often, drug use is a SYMPTOM of a bigger underlying mental health issue.
“Drug use is not merely a behavioral problem.”Posted by: political_mom | November 27, 2006 at 12:28 PM
Pmom,
“Drug use is a behavioral problem with health issues.”
Learn to read and understand that the term “health” also includes mental health as it does physical health.
Applying a few lines from an old Paul Simon song, “.. incidents and accidents”
Just how many “vicious” killers do we have in Kansas anyhow?
Seriously. The prison population in Kansas with a sentence for murder if you look at the stats at kscourts.org, it’s about 5% or less.
If you review those cases, you will find that the drive-by crowd is one sector that does not get life sentences. Cash talks. Then you have those crimes of passion. Your uncle Dan finds his wife Tricia in bed with his best friend Rick. Dan has had 2 beers already and he is steamin’ mad. Fight, hit, boom, his best friend is dead. Life sentence immediately.
Next door, Dan’s neighbor David is driving a nice little Lexus SUV, and works a good aircraft job, and then one day, the driveway is full of feds. Wow. A meth lab in the basement. He loses some possessions and gets about 5 – 10 years, but he has inadvertantly caused numerous deaths. You can’t trace it to him, there’s no weapon.
So, what is fair? Keep the ‘quote unquote’ murderer in prison for a huge amount of time, when chances are he will not feel the urge to kill again and will probably feel so bad he’ll become a tax-paying citizen and if married again, pay better attention his wife, while society will make him pay again and again for his mistake.
David, on the other hand, uses carefully deposited drug funds to get out of prison for ‘good time’, resumes life with his wife or new woman, and changes his business methods and location and continues to pump uncontrollable amounts of meth to our kids and their moms.. as over 50% of all meth users are female..
So, are we being real or watching too much TV? We might have one BTK in Kansas, but we have literally thousands of ghost killers/drug manufacturers, peddlers and pushers who go in and out of the system so fast they are not hardly rehabilitatible.
Even though it’s hard when a murder occurs, and is sad, and you want to hate the person that did it, I guarantee you that the majority of that minority percentage of “lifers” in Kansas, would do anything to get the 10 years and prove to be a remorseful and proper citizen.
You know what the HIGHEST percentage of convicts in our systems is?
Not murderers.
Not even drug related crimes.
Pedophiles. Sex Offenders.
Kansas, and Sedgwick County specifically, has one of the TOP TEN percentages of sex offenders in the entire US!!!!!! And revolve through the system like a merry go round. Hurting over and over again, and then it DOES lead to murder often.
I would rather have a reformed 1 time murderer next door to me, than a 10 time revolving pervert.
And I pay my taxes to voice my opinion. The system we are supporting is broken and does not work. It’s wasting time and lives.
There are also other unspoken victims, as well. What about the wives and children of the offender? You can’t stereo-type. They are WSU engineering students. They are aircraft professionals. They are boy scouts. There is no pre-disposition for a criminal act.
Any Friday night you add beer to the average American and they can easily commit any number of offenses.
Let’s stop the band-aid, and lets open the wound, and then we can become a model. What is the goal? Help humanity, or eliminate it?
This may be surprising to some here, but – I agree. Hard time is not always the answer. Treatment for drug abuse, in most cases, is better for the addict – and ultimately for all of us – than prison.
I’d hestitate to reach any serious conclusions based upon the rather limited “data” indicated in the post, however.
It would be helpful if there are data from more jurisdictions that support the premise that reduction in prison populations are related to decreases in a decrease in himicides, or alternatively, increases in prison population are accompanied by an increase in total crime rate. Stated another way, which is the cause and which is the effect, as demonstrated by data from more than 5 states and Canada?
Can’t “type” today.
To amplify a bit, was the reduction in the prison population the effect of a decrease in e.g., homicide rates, or was the decrease in homicide rates the result of the reduction in prison population.
Additionally, can any such variable be isolated from the data, or are there other factors involved, e.g., a better economy, which also relate to the decrease in crime/prison population?
I think we should take a step back and redefine what we consider a REAL threat to our children when it comes to sexual criminals. Those who are a threat, lets make it so they never ever get out. It makes me very sad to see so many kids on the sex offender registry.
OMG I just saw on the news that a mother who knew her husband was sexually abusing her children will get NO prison time. This is SO freaking wrong.She should be held JUST as accountable.
Bean snapper -You put beans in your mouth and you blow them out through a little tube. They can cause great harm to a child’s eye.
I think drug and alcohol abuse is a moral issue, a health issue, and cultural issue, a genetic issue, and a societal issue. I think all prisons should be turned into big drug treatment centers that emulate the environment of a boot camp. Just locking people up without any focus on treatment is a waste of time and money. Behavioral modification combined with intense therapy is the most effective way to help a person turn their life around. We’re missing out on a huge opportunity by not providing this for every inmate who will be re-entering society at some point.
Wiseman, so a bean snapper is essentially a straw you can shoot beans through, like spitwads? Thank goodness Wichita passed a law to prevent the spread of this potentially hazardous WMD.
I don’t suppose any lawmakers have tried to remove this silly law, or any of the other unnecessary laws on the books. Frankly, I’m sick of having to shoot my shotgun in the air to get by a certain intersection in town.