Rep. Charlie Rangel (in photo), D-N.Y., a Korean War veteran, has been calling for a renewed draft for several years, and while bringing back the draft doesn’t stand a snowball’s chance politically, it deserves serious debate.
Most Americans haven’t been directly affected by this war. And I think that’s dangerous and disgraceful. When nothing in our daily lives changes because of a national war, something’s wrong.
No raised taxes. For many of us, there’s no chance of our kids being sent to serve.
In short, no shared sacrifice.
Why not launch a foreign adventure? Why not give the president a blank check? Why not “stay the course”? Doesn’t affect me.
An all-volunteer force helps shield Congress and the president from public debate and the consequences of waging war.
Only in the face of massive incompetence and failure have Americans finally begun to say, “Enough.”
Bring back the draft. There’s no doubt we’d have fewer wars if politicians had to send their kids. And when we did go to war, it’s more likely we’d be united and committed as a nation to win. And in the case of a disastrous war like Vietnam or Iraq, it’s more likely we’d get out sooner.
Posted by Randy Scholfield
Registered?
Commenting on WE Blog now requires you to be a Kansas.com member. Use the links above to register, if you haven't already, or to log in.Contact us
Follow us
Daily Archives
-
Recent Comments
- BlueJay on Open thread 11/22
- Regular on Open thread 11/22
- Regular on Open thread 11/22
- Rage on Open thread 11/22
- cosmos_originally on Open thread 11/22
- Chas on Open thread 11/22
- BlueJay on Open thread 11/22
- Boxlock20 on Open thread 11/22
- satatom on Open thread 11/22
- JimJohnson on Open thread 11/22
122 Comments
“There’s no doubt we’d have fewer wars if politicians had to send their kids. And when we did go to war, it’s more likely we’d be united and committed as a nation to win. And in the case of a disastrous war like Vietnam or Iraq, it’s more likely we’d get out sooner.”
Any evidence – historical or otherwise – to back up that statement?
This is simply posturing and demogogery, pure and simple.
This is merely part of the ‘new direction’ the libs have promised. Take the finest, most efficient, smartest all volunteer fighting force the world has ever known and water it down with a bunch of unqualified, disgruntled high-school drop-outs that don’t want to be in the military, let alone fight.
For no other reason than to score political points.
Hank
Don’t worry, Hank.
You conservatives will never allow the draft to come back.
Last time, you damn near lost control of the country for awhile.
The economic draft is all you need. As long as we have poor people, and we will with your continued policies, we’ll have plenty of new recruits.
I wonder how many GI’s in Iraq just wanted a college education? A sizeable number, I’d guess . . .
I don’t think a military draft is necessarily a good thing, partially for the reasons Hank states.I do think some form of National Federal service obligation could really make a difference, not only to the country, but also for the individuals.
Hank writes: a draft will “water the military down with a bunch of unqualified, disgruntled high-school drop-outs that don’t want to be in the military, let alone fight.”
Uh, you mean like the guys who served with you in the Navy, the guys who went to Vietnam?
Way to support the troops, Kerry . . . I mean Hank.
The rich and well connect were always able to avoid service, even when we had the draft.
This is just vile posturing by a vile leftist, Rangel. The government has no business compelling anyone to serve the state in any capacity.
Viva la Raza Blanco!!
GMC right on.
Hank, blow it out your duffle bag. I, apparently in your eyes, a sainted RA, served with draftees and they were just fine. My only complaint about them is they only served two years. Wasn’t fun to see them go home before me. But WTF, that’s the way it was.
That’s what’s wrong with me- I got too watered down in Nam!!Shazam!!Now I see the light!
“Uh, you mean like the guys who served with you in the Navy, the guys who went to Vietnam?”
Yep!
Hank
It was said in the first sentence that this draft idea does not have a snowballs chance, but it deserves a serious debate. Huh?It deserves nothing except to be thrown out.Only the libs would complain that taxes haven’t been raised.
GMC
There can be no debate that public dissatisfaction helped to end the Vietnam war.The fact that EVERYONE probably at least knew someone involved in that disaster surely has something to do with that.
Yeah look at how Hank loves the troops.
Not all would be heroes are chomping at the bit to go to war Hank.
Sergeant York for instance?
So I WOULD be in favor of a military draft for the very reasons Charles Rangel is. Thing is? I got a 12 year old son. Given our current situation I would not support a draft. I don’t want my kid caught in it.
Bring on the draft, and they should draft women also.
Ian:
I’ve said again and again what I think of your racist nonsense. I’ll join Jew Boy here; put up or shut up. Can your “thinking” (if you wanna call it that) stand the light of day and critical examination here?
I don’t think so. I don’t think the posters here – on either side of the aisle – will have any difficult taking you apart.
Think you’ve got an argument that will stand the light of day? Let’s see it.
You may not have a choice Hank
http://www.dailypress.com/news/local/dp-75835sy0nov12,0,63052.story?coll=dp-news-local-final
As Army recruit quality falls, lawmaker vows oversightNovember 12, 2006Greater oversight of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and more open discussions of rising recruiting and retention challenges are two likely outcomes after Democrats take control of Congress in January.
Rep. Ike Skelton, D-Mo., will chair the House Armed Services Committee. (Virginia’s John Warner will be replaced as chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee by Michigan Democrat Carl Levin.) Skelton said wartime declines in recruit quality would be studied, as would worrying trends in retention. Skelton is particularly concerned about an exodus of Army senior captains and junior majors with 10 or more years.
“They’re bailing out,” he said in a conference call with reporters Wednesday, just a day after Democrats became the majority party for the 110th Congress. The loss of midgrade officers “affects the future leadership of the Army, and hopefully, we can take a good look at that.”
I have to agree with Hank. The military has evolved into a highly trained group of specialized professionals. With 6 weeks or whatever you would be diluting that with barely-trained amatuers.
“So I WOULD be in favor of a military draft for the very reasons Charles Rangel is. Thing is? I got a 12 year old son. Given our current situation I would not support a draft. I don’t want my kid caught in it.”
Priorties JR. Seems you would allow politics to trump your son’s right to choose if he would serve in the military.
Maybe I’m mistaken, why do you think Rangel supports the draft?
Hank
I’m with ya’ Jew.Ian, what is it that makes you superior to ANYBODY?Huh, peanut?
I served in submarines. Even during the draft service in submarines was voluntary.
There were, however, many men on submarines because they decided to choose their manner and time of service rather than letting the lottery decide.
But if speaking my opinion about the general quality of the recruits being lower during a draft makes me a “troop hater”, so be it. However, it goes much deeper than troops being less educated and disgruntled. Have any of you noticed there are no reports of ‘fragging’ in the volunteer army?
Hank
I’ll ask again.Has anybody ever met this Ian character?Come out, come out, whoever you are!
It’s funny to watch Hank Price’s crocodile fears about how the draft threatens to dilute our nation’s purity of soldierly essence. It’s already happened as a result of the Iraq war.
http://www.slate.com/id/2133908/
This article from Fred Kaplan has the hard numbers regarding Category IV recruits–those who score in the lowest third of the aptitude test. The percentage of these soldiers has increased from 2% of recruits in the mid-1980’s, to fully 12% of current recruits.
So if the claim is that the draft will result in the degrading of human capital in the Armed Forces, this already has accomplished under an all-volunteer Army stuck in an unwinnable and impossible war in Iraq.
If you want to argue against the draft, Hank Price, you’re going to need a different and better argument.
As for ‘fragging,’ got you covered. It is happening.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8257256/
The Generals are the ones who say that drafted men are not as motivated and they are not as qualified as the volunteers. It’s a no brainer.
Hank Price,
And Barry McCafferty is of the opinion that our all-volunteer Army is on the verge of breaking.
“McCaffrey predicted that the Army, particularly the National Guard, is on the verge of breaking because the effort is vastly underresourced and cannot be sustained for long.
“’You’ve got a foreign policy, a national security policy in Washington and they’re not resourced to carry it out,’ said McCaffrey, who called for an increase of 80,000 soldiers and 25,000 Marines in each service. ‘The country is not at war. The United States armed forces and the CIA are at war. So we are asking our military to sustain a level of effort that we have not resourced,’ he told Army Times.”
http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-2363642.php
So, Hank Price, is letting our all-volunteer Army break in the field preferrable to reinstating a draft?
And your personal experience in the military backs that up mr.fleetwood
Did you run away again, Santiago? Where are you? Does the prospect of having to defend your vile, racist attitudes scare you? Are you the vile coward that we all know you to be?
I will be here, Santiago. I will call you out every single time you post your racist nonsense. I will stand up to you no matter where or how you try to hide.
I will be here, Santiago. When you start your computer, I will be there. When you look in the mirror, I will be right behind you. When you cross the street, I will be waiting on the other side. When you open your newspaper, my face will be on the front page.
You are a coward, Santiago. You can’t face up to the people that value right, honesty and compassion.
You are a coward, Santiago, but you can’t hide behind Google and your other meaningless posts. You can’t hide, Santiago, because I will always be there to call you out.
I will beat you every time, Santiago, because I have right on my side. I will beat you every time, Santiago, because I believe in the human race, the decency of mankind and the basic goodness of all.
You can never get away from me, Santiago, because I am everywhere. I am all good and decent human beings.
You can never escape from me, Santiago, because I will pursue you like the varmit that you are and I will always challenge you to back up your hatred.
And I will always win, because love conquers hate at every turn.
I love my fellow man, Santiago, and my life has no room for hatred, even for those as despicable as you.
You will never escape, Santiago, until you repent and give up your racist attitudes.
You are a coward, Santiago, but there is hope for your future – give up your racist attitudes that are borne of fear. If you choose, you can embrace a world without hatred.
Until then I will be around the next corner waiting for you – the heritage of my family ditates that I stand up to you and your ilk.
And I will be there.
And you cannot escape.
And I’ll be around the other corner.
This purity of the warrior ethic espoused by so many lifers, despite the branch, is crap, and dagerous crap. When the crunch comes, draftees are just as good as volunteers.
dagerous=dangerous
dagerous=dangerous
YOU ARE A LOSER.My black son-in law is a real man, not a coward like you.HAHA.What about it loser.Answer the question.How are you superior to him?He could kick you ass mentally physically and any other way ya’ got.Loser.
Send me your address coward.You’re a daisy if ya’ do.
Funny Ian knows all about me.What about you peanut?
I ALREADY SENT YOU AN EMAIL.YOU DEGENERATE SCUM.REPLY YOU COWARD.
You can’t even spell.Must be racially degenerated.come on boy, tell us who ya’ are!
TOP HOUSE DEMOCRATS WILL NOT ALLOW BILL TO RE-INSTATE DRAFT
http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=politicsNews&storyid=2006-11-20T175623Z_01_N20280714_RTRUKOC_0_US-DRAFT.xml&src=rss&rpc=22
Even these lefties know it’s stupid idea. Are you listening Scholfield?
I think it makes perfect sense. Sure if the war affects you personally, you might have a different take on it.
If there is a real need for war, you’ll see em lining up signing up….just like after 9/11.
One of the problems with the all volunteer force is they can’t unvolunteer, without usually severe consequences, if they are dissatisified with the decisions that are made for them. In the volunteer coporate world people can quit if they don’t like what is happening in their work place. So it really isn’t truly real volunteering — closer to indentured servitude —
There should be some sort of universal service / draft, if draftees don’t want to be bullet catchers or tossers, they can do KP, wash trucks, change bed pans etc ….. and we wouldn’t have to pay Halliburton outrageous money to do it ….. Doesn’t Israel have a form of draft with the IDF? … and from what I understand there are no exceptions — what about it Jewboy? I worked for a wealthy jewish philanthropist with a daughter in Israel and even she ended up in the IDF — of course with the family connections she worked in PR, but she was a gun totin, rootin tootin soldier and she loved it ………..
Where’s all the patriotic drum beating when we mention a draft.So it’s a good thing to keep them there with one hand tied?
Tracy
For most it seems the patriotism runs out when they are asked to do their part —
The Bush administration had a golden opportunity to defeat the Taliban decisively and create a model democracy in Afghanistan. That opportunity was squandered with the decision to invade Iraq.
Whether or not one supports a draft, I think we can all support the press’s asking pro-war politicians who have children between the ages of 18 and 30, “Do you have children serving in the military to defend America’s freedom?” “Why not?”
House Armed Services Committee Chair Duncan Hunter fought in Vietnam. His son is in Iraq. He’s not practicing a double standard.
Bush should be forced to answer this question.
Ian won’t give his address, but he’ll meet me somewhere!
Oh, after th 13th of dec.He’s too busy being a half breed punk till then.Anybody else wanna be with me when we meet?
If anybody else wants to meet Ian, he’s making arrangements.FEEL FREE to drop him a line and get your name on the list.
“So, Hank Price, is letting our all-volunteer Army break in the field preferrable to reinstating a draft?”
Rangle is going to chair the Ways and Means committee. How does drafting the unqualified and the unwilling solve the underfunding problem?
Also, if you take the time to read your link about fragging you’ll find that it supports my contention tht fraging isn’t the problem with a volunteer force that it was with the troops in Viet Nam.
Hank
Holy cow…
All this bantering between Tracy and Ian….
Reminds me of a saying: when fighting with a pig, you have to get down in the mud. You’re both gonna get dirty. The problem is – the pig enjoys it.
I’m not sure who is and isn’t the pig in this soirée, but they both seem to be enjoying the mud.
Send your draft card to Randy Scholfield and win one year’s free rental of a Kenwood stereo and a test drive of a BRAND NEW PONTIAC!
This message brought to you by your good friends at Rent A Center, who have signed copies of Randy’s book available for lease.
Does Randy have a book … ?
Republicans demanded the surplus be returned to them, now that there is a deficit, they whine that they may have to pay their fair share!I think about their 3rd or 4th Iraq tour, motivation will be on the waning side for the all volunteer military.
The Draft does not work anymore.The political system has destroyed values of family unity, beliefs of government by the people and for the people.They have allowed and sold out the foundation of what America is thru their trade deals, out sourcing and allowing large masses of foreign nationals to come into our country.All this recent past and present form of government has been in representation for the corporations and the wealthy.They have done so much corruption that I have lost all my faith and trust in them and now they have more than just enemies outside the borders they also have enemies within borders, their own people.
I was a lifer in the ‘drafted’ military and the times during those times was an odd experience. In basic training, there were guys with Master’s Degrees and guys who had not completed high school.
The draft did fit the ‘brown shoe’ idea of the military because it was load up the troops and send them somewhere type of mentality.There was plenty of ‘cannon fodder’ to spread around.
I could make a long-winded post, but personally I would be against the draft for a lot of reasons.
In a time of extreme peril, I’m sure America could call up enough to fill the services. However, the next ‘big one’ may not give anyone time enough to do anything.
I disagree wiseman – I think JM is correct. If we believed in what we are fighting for you will have planty of recruits. But invading and occupying a country that doesn’t want us there? WHY? Whether VietNam or Iraq it is the responsibility of our “leadership” (sic) to convince the population that it is worthwhile.
I see your point Hmmm…but the magic words is a big “IF” and “believed”.They are having trouble getting volunteers, without forcing, that alone should tell you that the Draft would not work.
True. I think that was the whole point of the original editorial.
It might help if everyone would take a look at the 2003 Draft Bill, presented at that time by Rangel. It’s been sitting there for almost 4 years. Nobody wants to touch it. Gee, I can’t imagine why.
In it, I think you’ll see that it doesn’t allow many deferments, and, for Todd’s sake, it does include women serving in some capacity. It’s really more a Government Service than a draft, pretty much covering everyone.
Go to http://www.senate.gov and click on the Legislation & Records icon and type either “s 89″ or “hr 163″ in search by number box.
I have been censored by WE Blog, even though there were no physical threats, no profanity and nothing that was contrary to WE Blog policy.
Most of my recent posts to Santiago have been deleted.
No threats – but still censored.
J B – I suspect it is your “art work” that bothers them. Of course, that is what the rest of us like!
Thanks, hmmmmm, but I usually only post my “artwork” once per session.
No they deleted replies about “pigs” and “cowards.”
They must find cowardly pigs to be offensive.
But they still leave Santiago’s posts so I guess I am wrong there!
So, Jew Boy, you only like censorship when it serves to benefit you, huh? How typical of your ilk.
BTW: The green monkey left you a coconut.
V.L.R.B!!
We will never have World Wars again. That’s what nukes have stopped.
We can drop the heaviest convential bombs ever created, with no challenge to our Air Force.
But wars aren’t won from the air alone. It’s boots on the ground, keeping towns after battles. Closed borders sealed from “insurgent” soldiers and materials from coming in.
We will repeat Vietnam and Iraq because our President makes enemies of friends in the world.
American forces alone will never be capable of taking over another country.
If want to change the world, with 500,000 soldiers in a zone, its not going to be for oil or natural resources land grabbing.
We have to plan for wars where human rights are being challenged. We have to stop the wanna be Hitlers and Saddam’s based soley on saving people.
Sanctions againsts tyrants only harms the citizens in those countries more than the crazy leaderships.
North Korean people! African people. Middle Eastern people. Central American people. Mexico’s people unable to save themselves from bad governments and drug lords.
Wars to save people will happen. Only politics will bad mouth those campaigns.
Repubs don’t start wars to save people, its only for resources.
Dem’s so liberal they start wars just because, like in the Balkans. Republicans didn’t support war in the Balkans no matter seeing the concentration camp scenes coming out of there. It was all a sham Billy’s misdirection because of Monica and other investigations.
The world needs future wars to save people.
A future military draft to put more boots on the ground has to happen, if American forces want to stablize a war zone. Democracy needs peace in the streets.
The future draft will be CHENEY FREE DEFERMENTS. No excuses, being married, in college. A better cross section of people who economically didn’t have to join the armed forces. Are they more college educated, possibly.
Take the teenagers out of it. No battlefields for any soldier under 20 years old.
No overuse the national guard full of 40 and 50 year olds.
War in Iraq is not balanced properly. Forces needed in Afganistan. Watching North Korea.
There is no border coverage in Iraq and Afgahinstan. Insurgents and materials easily enter the zones.
We’ll never win in that kind of war plan, without friends.
Never again can we do “choice” wars and not have world help.
“So, Jew Boy, you only like censorship when it serves to benefit you, huh? How typical of your ilk.
BTW: The green monkey left you a coconut.”
No, Santiago, I am not in favor of censorship. One of the posts that was deleted actually defended your “right” to make a fool of yourself.
But I stand by my original statement – tell me why, in your own words, why you think you are superior to me and my family.
As I said, you are a coward.
You called me out, now bring it on.
Hmmmm, What, you are Randy’s alter ego and you do not know about his book?Shocking!Betcha did not know about his auto dealing relatives that underwrite our beloved Eagle either?Darn, betcha even believe in unbiased media and the tooth fairy. You are golden, alterrandy.
People need to stop being sucked into Ian bashing. It’s a total waste of time and energy. He could be a David Duke acolyte, or an agent of the Jewish Defense League.
Frankly, I don’t think he should be censored. I do think his posts should be removed from regular threads, and transferred to a weekly “Ian says” thread. Then he can speak and others can read and respond, if they choose. This is a thread about the draft, and Ian and his respondents have said nothing about this.
If we were fighting a real war, and by that I mean a war that threatened America, we’d have a draft, because the volunteer scheme hasn’t produced enough men and women to stop Islamic terrorism, WMD proliferation or to establish a democratic foothold in the Middle East. If we were truly waging a crusade pitting Western Civilization againt Islamofascists, we Americans would be called to sacrifice our comfortable lives, and Europe would join us, because Europe is Western Civilization too.
Consider, Muslims don’t see a wonderful world as we do. But do we see a wonderful world as they do? Can people understand, it isn’t Americans’ responsibility to stamp other people in America’s image. Do Americans want to be stamped in Islam’s image? Get out of their oilfieds, and let them figure out their own lives.
I agree that having a draft would make the powers that be much more selective in what conflicts they choose to get involved in, I’ve said this all along. If we had a draft, we would never have invaded Iraq. Too many people are not willing to sacrifice themselves or their loved ones for such a “cause”. It only makes sense. Those who make the decision to go to war should have to sacrifice the same as the people they represent. This time no deferments, either.
But my responses were censored, even though there were no threats, but Santiago gets a free ride.
In the name of “free speech” he is allowed the most vile of insults, but when I call him out, I am censored.
Evil such as Santiago has to be addressed. Good people cannot just sit by and allow his racist philosophies to go unchecked.
These are not just the rantings of a hard right-wing maniac – they are the origins of hate crimes.
You are either part of the problem or part of the solution.
Hatred, as espoused by Santiago, is the problem.
Standing up to him is the solution.
OK, I will compromise. Let’s draft Ian and Jew Boy. And Randy will drive them to the induction center, sedated in the back seat of a BRAND NEW CAR from Scholfield Auto Plaza.
Well, waitaminute, I am 54 years old, so I just might be beyond the age of consent. Santiago, on the other hand, claims to be a Gulf War veteran “officer,” so he should be over there in Iraq.
I do have a son, however, who will be going military this next year. Unlike so many of the far right, he wants to serve his country even though he is decidedly anti-Bush.
Unlike Santiago, he has cajones.
I wish waitaminute would get drafted so we’d be spared his incessant whining.
I agree with JB. Posting a picture of “the finger” is insulting and perhaps obscene.
It is not hate speech.
The racist rants that Ian posts ARE hate speech, no question.
When terrorists say things like this about Americans in their mosques or madrasses, we rightly condemn them for it.
But when Ian says it about non-whites and Jews, Eagle editors don’t have a bit of problem with it.
Ian isn’t the only one to blame here.
I wonder what kind of legal exposure The Eagle is open to should a hate crime result from these posts.
You’ll recall that the leader of White Aryan Resistance was successfully sued and reduced to penury after his hate speech led to the attack by Skin Heads of an Ethiopian man in Washington state.
For the record, I have exchanged a number of e-mails with Santiago, where I have offered to meet him publicly to “debate” my supposed “inferiority.”
Each time, I assured Mr. Santiago that any meeting would be non-violent and that the debate would be strictly verbal. On one occasion, Mr. Santiago did imply that because he was younger and larger than me, it would not be a fair “debate.”
Each time, Mr. Santiago took the coward’s way out.
Mr. Santiago stated that we should take our “debate” private, but when offered that option, he wimped out. He told me that I should stop posting because my “talmudic hysterics.” were clogging up the blogs. Unfortuantely, Mr. Santiago failed to see how his racist rants we doing a great disservice to right thinking people everywhere.
The offer remains for Mr. Santiago: stop insulting me and my family or put up!
And for those of you that view our own going debate with amusement – just remember you might be the next group that has to endure the irrational hatred of people like Mr. Santiago.
Will you continue to be silent just because I am of partial Jewish heritage?
Wow, capngalahad yoy are an insane little stalinist, aren’t you? I recall that YOU once demanded the power to ban and censor on this blog and then you stomped off when you didn’t get that power. You were calling yourself loveboat or trueblue at that time.
Just for your information, hatespeech laws and hatcrimes laws are patently unconstitutional.
Viva La Raza Blanco!!
But hate speech and hate crime purveyors are just wimpy little cowards, Santiago.
Why won’t you debate, Santiago, publicly OR privately?
Do you still think that you are superior to me and my family?
That is what you said in your private e-mail, but I want to hear it on this forum.
And if you think that you are superior, pray tell why it is that you, of all people, have a superiority complex.
God help us if Santiago is ACTUALLY superior to anyone!
As I have stated many times before, Santiago, I will not allow you to insult me and my family – so bring it on!
Let the record show from this moment on, I will not respond to anything Ian posts directed at me.
He is literally beneath my contempt, and I will not dignify his posts to me with a response.
And JewBoy is exactly right. As Elie Wiesel writes, “the question is not why that one man Hitler could be so evil but that so many had not the courage to be good.”
Thank you . . . carry on.
http://www.splcenter.org/index.jsp
Also, folks, the link above is to Morris Dees’s Southern Poverty Law Center, the most effective private organization that I know for fighting people like Ian.
They have successfully busted and bankrupted a number of racist leaders engaging in domestic terrorism against people of color.
I haven’t donated to them for awhile, and thanks to Ian, it looks like it’s time to write another check.
A relevant article from their website:
Racist skinhead movement growing, more dangerous
Oct. 19, 2006 — In just four years, the number of racist skinhead crews in the United States has more than tripled, threatening a renewed era of street violence, according to the Fall 2006 issue of the Center’s Intelligence Report.
The article, Motley Crews, tells how the skinhead scene “has entered a free-for-all phase, with new and unaffiliated local, state and regional crews proliferating rapidly. More and more of these newcomers subscribe to the ultra-violent ethos and disorganized crime profiteering of a chaotic band of Midwest-based gangster skins known as Vinlanders.”
The number of skinhead crews has grown from 18 in 2002 to at least 59 today. This resurgence raises the potential for bloodshed to a level not seen since racist skinheads unleashed a wave of criminal violence in the late 1980s.
“In the last couple of years, we have seen a significant increase not only in the number of active skinhead groups, but also in the level of violence they are producing,” said Mark Potok, editor of the Intelligence Report and director of the Center’s Intelligence Project. “The movement was once dominated by a single powerful organization, the Hammerskin Nation, that tended to keep the lid on violence. Now, we’re seeing a large number of smaller organizations vying for power and prominence, and that raises the potential for even more criminal activity.”
More at http://www.splcenter.org/news/item.jsp?aid=219—–
For those of you out there that might be alone on Thanksgiving – I am making a sincere invitation – my home, however modest, is open for Thanksgiving.
Even you, Santiago.
Do not sit at home alone for the Holiday.
If you face this Holiday alone, send me a private e-mail and I will give you my address. My home, my family and my love of my fellow man is open. You are welcome, without reservation.
I do not have much, but I am a $^(*&^%$# great cook and the turkey and the fixin’s will be on the table.
Don’t be home alone – my home is open. I will welcome you with open arms!
All the best to all of you – Santiago included!
Viva America!
BTW – If you have not done the click-click and figured it out for yourself……. WSClark and Jew Boy are one and the same.
The “Jew Boy” nic was strictly for the benefit of Mr. Santiago.
“Jew Boy” use to be an insult back in the fifties and sixties. Now, I challenge anyone to claim that they are superior to me because of my Jewish ancestry.
I stand by my statements – Mr. Santiago is a coward, but he is still welcome to my home for Thanksgiving, if he is home alone for the Holiday.
Viva la Turkey!
Viva la Pumkin Pie!
Viva America!
All this rhetoric from Jew Boy and Ian is getting old. Put on some boxing gloves and get it settled.
Stop junking up the blog.
I made the offer – non violently – but Santiago took the coward’s way out.
Do you think that I am “junking up” the blog when I stand up for myself and minorities everywhere?
If that means that I am junking up the blog, then I will continue to do so. I will not be silent in the face of bigotry just because it offends your sensibilities.
Bigotry has to be faced down or it will continue to grow unabated.
I am here – Santiago continues to run away like the coward that he is. If more of us would stand up to his racism his attitudes would be defeated. There is nothing about his thought process that can be excused under the guise of freedom of speech. Freedom of speech requires that you be willing to be able to deal with the consequences.
Stop excusing Santiago because it offends you that someone would stand up to him. By excusing him you are just enabling his racist rants.
“Stop junking up the blog” – I am of Jewish, Native American and African-American heritage – do you REALLY expect me to stand by and put up with Santiago’s crap?
There is no way that I will ever stand down.
notwothaminute – I am nobody’d alter ego. I have met Scholfield but I don’t stand for him in any way. You apparently are so blinded by your irrational hatred of him (for whatever reasons) that you see a conspiricy behind every tree. You are obviously a paranoid schizophenic.
And no, I am not familiar with his book. What is it about? What is its title?
WSC – I’ll join you with viva la turkey, but hold the cranberry sauce.
“There is no way that I will ever stand down.” Posted by: WSClark | November 20, 2006 at 08:38 PM
You know why the rants don’t bother me? It’s because I scan the blog page first and find what I’m interested in reading.
If I see phrases that set off my mental alarm, I ignore it. Won’t even waste another second on it.
So, stop junking up the blog and stay on issue.
Stand up! Stand up, all of you! Don’t sit by in idle amusement at Santiago’s racist rants! If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem!
For God’s sake, don’t lie down and let a two-bit racist define what all of you are about. Yes, he has a right to his opinion just as I have a right to defend myself and my family.
Santiago is not funny – he is not a commedian – he is a vile racist!
Don’t you see – if you sit by and allow him his racist point of view, you are just like the German populous that stood idly by while the Jews were exterminated?
Challenge him! Stand up to him! Call him out and expose him for the racist that he is!
This is our country – don’t let him get away with it. Don’t stand by because he just hates Jews or blacks or Hispanics. Stop him in his tracks and stand up for your future.
You could be next on his hit parade.
I know that some of you, like Tracy, stand with me. Stand up and be on the right side.
The future of our country is in your hands!
“So, stop junking up the blog and stay on issue.”
I stand by my position. You can enable Santiago all you want, but I will ALWAYS stand up for myself and my family.
If that offends you, so be it.
I will never back down.
To add to my previous post to JM – it is MY heritage that Santiago is insulting. It is MY children that Santiago is insulting. It is MY grandchildren that Santiago is insulting. It is MY country that Santiago is insulting.
If it bothers you that I stand up for myself and my family, then that is YOUR problem….
.. because if you want me to stop, then you will have to kill me…..
…..because nothing short of death will stop me from standing up for myself and my family.
And you can bet on that………
WSC…If the future of America is in Tracy’s hands we are truly screwed!
hmmmm….I do not hate Randy. Just find him to be a really really big hypocrite. Habitually so. His book can be located by searching “Rent A Center” and “great American literature” or something like that. You know, that great storefront advancing the best in consumerism and buying lots of full page ads to support ed boards when the money pouring in from auto dealers gets short..Viva La Veritas!
And let’s just all give WSC/JB some room here. What’s to say we will not end up 40-ish, crabby, overwrought, and then find out we too are Jewish. Just back up and give him some air, he will be ok.
Rangels Idea is beyond stupid and he should be old enough to remember how the draft ends up working. The very people he said this idea is to protect and give a level playing field will always be the one that get caught up in a draft!
WSClark, your offer to host anyone that will be alone on the hollidays is truly selfless. I can not speak for the rest of mankind, but the very thought give hope to a dying species.
In a country that has more then any other. No one should be alone nor hungry anytime of the year. All it take is for us to reach out and give a little hand to those that have less. Be that food or friends, many are alone even in a crowd, some by life while others are by choice.
The life part we can do something about. The choice part is up to them to change.
“And let’s just all give WSC/JB some room here. What’s to say we will not end up 40-ish, crabby, overwrought, and then find out we too are Jewish. Just back up and give him some air, he will be ok.”
He will be okay? First of all, I am “fifty-ish.”
Secondly, you apparently don’t see that you could be next on the list.
Let me ask you, what sort of man would I be if I did NOT stand up for myself and my family?
Would you like to try to call one of my nieces a nigger?
Would you like to try to call my son a kike?
Would you like to try to call my granddaughter a redskin?
If you would, you would have to deal with me and my son and my friends and my family.
And you would lose.
As I said to Santiago – bring it on!
notworthasecond – I guess his book can’t be too important to you since you don’t know the title or topic. I just find your obsession with him to be rather amusing.
….because nothing short of death will stop me from standing up for myself and my family.And you can bet on that………Posted by: WSClark | November 20, 2006 at 09:26 PM
…or getting banned from posting by junking it up.
waitaminute
You are such a Johnny one note. If you have issues with Randy why not write to him instead of bugging everybody else?
JM
If you had choked on Ian’s bile for well over a year as some of us have, you might welcome a breath of fresh air to finally blow the bluster away and find out just what Ian is.
WS? Didn’t figure you for “Jew boy”. I won’t say who I THOUGHT it was, but trust me this is a complment.
I THOUGHT “JB” was one of our best spoken long term posters who FINALLY had enough of Ian.
Ian? I have defended your right to post here. I will contine to do so. I have stood up for you when you were treated unfairly.
But WS has done something none of us ever thought to do.
He has asked you why you are what you are. He has asked for your words and not some hate screed from someone else.
Ian I say that’s fair.
I know I speak for many when I say that you are an oddity. The intelligent bigot.
At the very first meetup back in March, me and some of the other posters discussed you Ian. I won’t name names, but suffice it to say I am not the only one who at least at that time considered you to be some sort of parody. Honestly I still don’t know.
It it IS an “act”? It really is rather old. If it isn’t? I’d like to know where your sort of line of thinking begins.
WS has called you out Ian. I will be waiting for you to respond to him.
“…or getting banned from posting by junking it up.”
Are you going to request that I be banned? Go ahead.
Did I hit a little too close to home, JM?
Think about it…..
If you are a Christian, you are already in the minority.
If you are white, you are already in the minority.
If if are American, you are already in the minority.
Do you want to ban me, JM? Are you afraid of what I have to say or do you just secretly agree with Santiago?
Go ahead, JM, get me banned – my voice will not be silenced.
Because I am right.
And you are wrong.
I will not back off. Sanitago called me out and I am here – are you on his side?
If so, why do you think that anyone is superior to me and my family by virtue of their birth?
Answer the question and don’t take the coward’s way out like Santiago.
Stand up for what you believe in, however horrendous it may be.
If you had choked on Ian’s bile for well over a year as some of us have, you might welcome a breath of fresh air to finally blow the bluster away and find out just what Ian is.” Posted by: J R | November 20, 2006 at 10:19 PM”
There is a time and place for such things. On the WE blog they call it the OPEN THREAD.
Junking up the blog thread called “Draft could mean fewer wars” with insults about feeling offended by someone’s remarks is beyond childish and unfair to people who want to discuss the issue.
It’s easy to put up with people like Ian, just ignore him. I think I may have read two posting of his rants max. When I saw what he was, I just fly right on by totally ignoring him.
Posting personal vendettas under any topic not only disrupts the purpose of having open discussion, but it says that intolerance regardless of right or wrong cuts both ways.
It reminds of one of those cop shows where two sides are screaming and hurling insults at one another and the cops are trying to get both sides to settle down. Neither side cares to listen to the other, just as along as they can scream, throw fits and huff and puff.
Stop junking up the blog with personal vendettas.
“Stop junking up the blog with personal vendettas. ”
It’s not personal, JM, in case you have not taken the time to see the truth – it’s about right and wrong.
You have taken me to task to “junking up the blog.”
It’s not a personal vendetta – it’s about who we are and why we are the people that we are.
You apparently do not have a problem with my open invitation to anyone and all for Thanksgiving.
But you are offended by my challenge to Santiago concerning his racist attitudes.
Can’t you see the connection?
Go ahead, JM, get me banned.
Get me banned……
But you still will be a loser.
I see you are still posting, junking it up.
Guess what, you are now added to my ignore list when I scan the blog for reading matter.
Since you can’t behave and honor the request of your fellow bloggers, then I guess you’ll have to be ignored.
Oh and it easy, I can just click the power switch off on my monitor and not even view the WE Blog.
I can scan the blog and when I use my reader and editor to have it blank out any post I don’t want to read. Click…click no more post, web page editing is easy. Yeah, you can do it even if it isn’t your web page, you just can’t publish it (legally.)
(click)
I will be perfectly content to move on, read a few stories in the Eagle and other papers and ponder the signficance of what it is really all about.
Oh yeah, and the topic of this particular blog was about the draft. I think it got lost somewhere.
Click me out, just like you “click out” Jews, blacks, Hispanics and homosexuals.
Go ahead and “click us out” we’ll still be here and you will still be a loser.
I am not going to “behave” at your request, just as I will not “go away” at Santiago’s request.
I will not “go away” no matter what you say.
“I see you are still posting, junking it up.”
That is my right, especially when someone insults my heritage as Santiago did. Do you have a problem with my defending myself and my family?
I do not give a good (insert) what you think – I will always stand up for my family.
Do you think that I should be a good little boy and just take it?
You are an enabler, JM; you choose to remain silent to Santiago’s racist rants.
That make you equally guilty…
And no, I won’t go away so try to get me banned.
BTW – JM, did my open offer for Thanksgiving offend you as much as my defense of my family?
God forbid that opening my home to those that are alone for the Holiday would offend your delicate sensibilities.
God forbid someone should be open to ALL sorts of lowlife folks.
Christ! I even invited Santiago!
Oh, yeah, you are invited too, just watch out for my 6′3″ 275# KIKE son – he’s kinda grouchy in the late afternoon.
Happy Holidays – good luck getting me banned!
Jeez, and I thought I was nuts!
heh heh, pathetic.
Have a wonderful Thanksgiving and your son will have someone to ‘look up to’ if we ever meet. I’m a rather large fellow myself. heh
I’m having Thanksgiving dinner with my relatvies. After dinner I will be playing with the Grandchildren and talking with other relatives.
With your contemptous behavior towards anyone that tries to tell you to calm down I’m pretty sure you’d probably spit in any food I got at your house.
Thanks for the invite, but no thanks.
Yes, I’m actually a couple inches taller than your son and slightly heavier. heh Not that it matters (rolls eyes)
“anyone that tries to tell you to calm down”
Don’t even try to tell me to “calm down” JM. Don’t even think about it – my family is more improtant to me than life it’s self.
I will defend them against all that would insult them and their heritage. I could care less if you are 5′6″ or 7′6″ – you would have to worry about me, not my son – I would get to you first.
And no, I would not spit in your food, JM. My offer is open to one and all that has to spend this Holiday alone. Don’t try to minimize my generousity with your insults – my offer stands – out of the goodness of my heart – despite your evil comments.
I am sure that offends you, but what else could I expect from you.
And “waitaminute” – who said that you are NOT nuts?
Did my offer offend you, too?
Someone has ceased to exist in my mind.
(click)
sigh……..
Guys?
Nobody gets “banned” okay? Nobody ever has gotten “banned”. The format as it is doesn’t accomodate it.
JM?
You’re bitching that WS is “junking up the thread”. Uh….your last several posts are directed at complaining about WS! Who made you the referee?
WS
Your Thanksgiving offer is very kind. I will NOT be alone at Thanksgiving, but if you get any takers, or even if you don’t, I might stop by. I always like putting a face with a name.
That said? I GET your frustration with Ian. Just don’t make it a crusade on multiple threads huh? This thread is dead anyway (speaker Peolosi will not advocate for a draft) so keep it here or on the open. Don’t let Ian define you here in your pursuit of him.
God, I am so happy that I cease to exist in JM’s mind – I would hate to think that he would have dreams about me.
Yuk!
Ian does not define me in any way, but I will not back down when confronted by racism – it is our responsiblity to address injustice whenever it shows it’s ugly face.
And yes, you are welcome, JR, to come to my home – I will always welcome those on the right side of justice!
Hell, I will always welcome those on the wrong side of justice, like Santiago and JM – I just might be able to kill them with kindness!
I don’t spit while I am cooking!
Viva la Turkey!
Viva the USA!
JR, bud, I thought about intervening in this fracas, but I wasn’t sure what to say.
You said it for me.
Yeah, indeedy, hehe, we do have JR (to quote one of our other regulars). We don’t always agree, but you shined on this thread, my friend.
WS/JB: Feel free to keep challenging Ian to respond, but don’t let him dominate the threads–that’s what he wants. I can tell you that he answers only the questions that he wants to answer, unless you force the issue.
And you might ask him why he’s still using jew-mail! ;-)P.S. What the hell I’m talking about:http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2006/04/lockemup_limbau.html#comment-16762750
I find it utterly hilarious that one of the most anti-war Democrats wishes to impose a draft. What did I tell ya folks?
Same shit, different stink!
Happy Thanksgiving Week, everybody!
WSC, thanks for the open invite, but I can’t afford the plane tickets. But I’ll be there in spirit.
Mary, I still have to thank you for all those wonderful Thanksgiving feasts I’d been invited to in the past. Maybe in the future I should reciprocate. If you, or your family members, ever decide to watch the Midnight Sun, drop me a line!
As for the topic, shouldn’t the draft include option for National Service, and not just military type, but also along the line of Peace Corps or VISTA? Thus, it doesn’t necessarily mean a pro-war stance. Either way, it’ll give a chance for young people to mix across socio-economic lines and discover what makes them a nation?
We already have a “back-door draft” in stop-loss, extended tours of duty, and call ups of the IRR.http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/28/sunday/main620263.shtmlThe article was written in 2004, and things have only gotten worse. We have troops going on their 3rd and 4th tours of duty in Iraq. We are asking the troops and their families to make sacrifices so that we can get tax cuts for the top 10%. Where has the government ever asked for sacrifices from the American people as a whole? Well, other than “shutup or be branded as a traitor”.
Before we have a draft, why don’t we start requiring women to register under the Selective Service Act?
What good would it do to have a draft? To increase the size of our military? We can’t even buy body armor and other equipment for the small military that we have now.
ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hank says no fragging goes on these days?
I wonder if Pat Tillman’s family would agree?
Of course, (serious tone here) the DOD official version of his death blames “bad eyesight” (of three of the four men accused of shooting Tillman).
No fragging in this army. No siree.
Move along here. Nothing to see…
Oh, and JM whining about bigots clogging up the thread? heheheh
Pot meet kettle. JM is one theocratic homophobic sob. But he’s not a bigot. uh uh no.
“This is simply posturing and demogogery, pure and simple. ”
Well GMC, you are the expert on “demogogery and posturing” so we probably should defer to your opinion on those matters….
I have a son that is a junior at KU. I served two years RA in RVN!I volunteered for the Army in 1966 and while I wouldn’t trade the experience of VietNam, I wouldn’t want my son fighting in Iraq! Why? Because the very ones who want to fight this war are the ones who hide from serving or have not served in the military. Yet, they scream the loudest about supporting the troops,(which I do!) fighting the war on terror and fighting for freedom. It’s the loud mouths that holler they are all for America! “I am an American!”, they say. Yet, when the chips are on the table they fold like a cheap suit. Case in point! Some “Hawkish” college students were asked how many support the war. Almost all stood up. When asked if they would go serve in Iraq? The whole side sat down. Shows where their priorities are. “Let others fight in Iraq.”, is the feeling I get from the very ones who hawk this insane war! War is HELL! Sadly,many Americans are finding that out!
KFG,Let me get this straight?In your demented little mind, everyone who holds a traditional view of marriage is a homophobe?Correct?
An article, written in 1980, by now Senator-elect Webb on why a draft is needed. Please note the followup piece by his collaborator in 1980.
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/198004/webb-draft
Why yes Will. I have yet to hear of one valid reason why gay marriage would hurt the precious institution of marriage, except from the religious (IT”S A SIN) and anti-gay standpoint.
When you can tell me how Sue marrying Trish will hurt YOUR marriage, then you can tell me that you’re not a homophobe.
As long the conservative right has any say in how the President manages our foreign policy, we will need the draft. At the present time there are not enough troops to go around and the only way to acquire them is through a fair draft. This will give those so-called patriots a chance to show their true colors. I may be wrong but waving the flag, putting a bumper sticker on your car or shaking the hand of somebody in uniform does not constitute support. I have been told on many occasions especially on hate radio that we are in a world war. In war people make sacrifices for the war effort. When the United States was attacked by Japan, remember the World Trade Center attack was compared to this, Americans made sacrifices. They did not complain that their taxes were to high but instead they bought war bonds to support the war effort. They rationed just about everything including; fuel, food, and rubber products. But more importantly they enlisted in the Armed Forces. They did their part. A lot of these people made the ultimate sacrifice to defend our way of life. With this so-called world war, the only sacrifices that modern Americans are willing to make are those that do not affect them personally. They don’t want anything rationed especially gas. They wouldn’t be able to drive their SUV. Military service is out of the question for them and their children because they deserve better. So where is the support?
Thank you, Roo Haa. We miss you.Send some pics of your little one, OK?
Point One – I am not so sure that hetro marriage should not be banned. We hetrosexuals have screwed up marriage for years now, why not let the gay/lesbian folks have a go at it.
They can’t do any worse – hell, I am zero for two and a half.
Point Two – Seriously, Gray Fox is absolutely right – America has not been asked to sacrifice. America has not been asked to do her part. We have allowed our Armed Forces to carry the load – yes they are volunteers, but they did not volunteer to get their asses blown off in an unwinnable war.
Imagine – raise taxes by fifty percent, ration gasoline, ration basic food stuffs like sugar, flour, etc, draft ALL young men, put most young women and older males to work in defense industries, lock down the country and put us all on a war footing.
Imagine – if that all were to happen, the War on Iraq would be over tomorrow.
Will, I guess I’m not too surprized that you don’t understand why an anti-war democrat would be in favor of the draft.It’s only when war becomes too painful and too much of a sacrifice for everyone that we will do everything to avoid it.
On marriage – leave it strictly to the churches to do as they see fit. The state should not be in the marriage business – neither gay nor straight.
For legal/civil matters the state should recognize unions that carry rights and responsibilities. This union should be available to any two consenting adults who wish to enter it. In fact, I am not sure that couldn’t be expanded to allow for the traditions of the Fundamentalist Mormons who have plural marriages in their church.
As long as those marriages aren’t to children Ben.
Actually a draft would not put Congressmen’s or Administration’s offspring in harms way. The military is like any other organization, and those with wealth, fame, or an important family connection would be in some protected environment far away from the action. Unless of course they were patriots like Tillman, and actually wanted to fight.
Should have added, but the prospect of a draft would scare the hell out of the bumper sticker war supporters.
p-mom – you will notice I specifically indicated consenting adults.
The fundie mormons like to get the child virgin brides, ye go too far!
Mary,I’m not surprised that you are completely oblivious to the fact that there never has been in the history of U.S. history, a “fair draft!” Neither do you have the sense to question the PURPOSE of a draft in the near future. What would a larger military accomplish? More invasions of sovereign states? More quagmires like Iraq? Or have the neocons convinced you that an imminent invasion by 4,000 douchebags hiding in caves is going to take place on American soil?
You totally miss my point, Will. Maybe you need to go back and review my post. Just because there has never been a “fair” draft, doesn’t mean that it can never be fair. If everyone in this country had to risk the same sacrifice whenever we decided to overthrow some country’s government, I’ll bet our foreign policy would go through a pretty dramatic overhaul.It’s only when ALL OF US feel the pain of the decisions made by our elected leaders (including them) that we’ll only go to war as a last resort.How many Congressmen do you know that have a kid in Iraq?