The nation has seen three fatal school shootings in a week, two of them by obviously disturbed adult males. Monday’s tragedy in a one-room Amish school in Pennsylvania was the worst and most bizarre — an execution-style slaying that has left five girls and the gunman dead and others badly injured. In response, the Bush administration will hold a summit on school violence, and parents and educators across the nation are wondering what more can be done to prevent such horrifying crimes. It’s a tough issue. Must we better fortify and police schools? Re-examine gun laws? Do more to find help for mentally ill men and bullied boys? Or simply realize that in a free society, our best efforts sometimes are going to fail to keep horrible things from happening to innocents, even children?
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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81 Comments
Why can’t sick bastards like this guy just kill themselves? Why do they always have to take innocent life first?
I don’t know how you can prevent it, without turning our schools into fortresses. Maybe encourage those with those kind of thoughts to get help, or if not, to be man enough to just kill themselves.
I agree out. I don’t know what to do … except cry.
Ben, I agree with you and outlander; I, too, know not what to do. Outlander: you have identified the major problem; if we try to prevent it from ever occurring, even turning schools into fortresses won’t be sufficient. I understand that there are many cases of “suicide by cop” in this sorry old world, anectdotally, of course; perhaps in the Colorado and Pennsylvania situations, that is what the two individuals had in mind, but at the last moment, they found the nerve to take themselves out after killing innocent people. Tragic, tragic situations.
I don’t like the idea of turning our schools into fortresses, but we’ve got to face reality and do whatever it takes to do to keep our kids safe. Prevention, such as implementing programs to deal with bullying, is always a good idea, but ultimately we cannot allow our schools to become a place to turn kids into targets. If it means fairly stringent security measures need to be implemented, then so be it. We can’t protect anyone 100% of the time, but when a problem area has been identified, we must address it.
What I said on the open thread. And I hope that place in hell is the worst place in hell.
Home school. Not because home can ever be totally safe from invaders, but I’m talking about the victims of “school education” who become psychopaths. Where do you think Carl Roberts IV was educated? Oh the media doesn’t say. It couldn’t have been he was home schooled.
Just like CBS 60 Minutes didn’t say where Ryan McPherson, the inventor of sick “Bumfight” “skits’ [sic in his own words], received his education. Nor the teenagers who beat to death a homeless man, who say they watched “Bumfights” over and over again.
Home-schooled? Not.
How can we be sure? Because if any of these sociopaths had been home-schooled, the media would have loudly reported it. As tellingly, home-schooling parents wouldn’t have let their sons glue themselves to the boob tube and watch “Bumfights”.
So the media is telling us, for those who have eyes to see, and ears to hear, that education-factory schooling doesn’t work, because children aren’t “raw materials”.
I have a very strong suspicion that BTK was, despite being a “church leader”, public-school educated. Prove me wrong.
The Roberts killing will do one thing, I can guarantee. It will move Pennsylvania Amish people to say, “Sorry, you wanted our children to attend regular school, and we cooperated, but we’re not going to let them be killed. We’re going back to home education.”
The questions we need to ask ourselves is this- do we want to do something that will make us feel better or do we want to do what works? Are we willing to do what works, even if some of us are uncomfortable with that option?
Should we begin looking at mental health and sex abuse earlier? Maybe doing more to get people who have thoughts of doing something like this help without the stigma? Would this have been prevented if he felt safe to go to someone with how he felt? I don’t think sexual abuse happens more, I think that sexual abuse isn’t as shoved under the rug as it used to be. What do we do? As long as people are afraid to come forward if they have those feelings, the more the self hatred rages within themselves- till it blows with something like this. And we become a society more closed off and overprotective.
Homeschooling is your answer? Yeah, that’s great. PSST, some homeschools are wonderful because their parents are wonderful. Other homeschools are havens for child abuse and religious separatists which will only spur more nuts like this guy.
Heck, maybe you know.With the concealed carry law, would teachers with a permit be allowed to conceal and carry at school?That would be a possible solution.I believe that a couple of teachers who would act as the “air marshall” would be good.I’m all for putting them through some intensive training and informing the public that this is the case.
Is this an American phenomenon? Do repressive societies create sociopaths at the same rate that our free society currently does?
mom, I don’t think that more counseling is the answer here.I’m sure there are plenty of opportunities for guys like this to get help if they want it.I don’t believe the law would have done much about an alleged, unreported abuse 20 yrs ago.You’re kind of suggesting that he did not seek help out of fear?Somebody who shoots kids and then himself is plainly sick, and plainly unafraid.
he didn’t feel safe?so he blows his brains out?mom. I don’t get it.Arm the teachers.You can’t spot and cure every potential murderer.
From a quick look at cnn.com, apparently this guy abused two younger relatives some 20 years ago; as I recall, he told his wife in one of his notes that he had been dreaming of committing other abuses for 2 years; he apparently had a plan, a check list, etc., together with being well armed. Another Dennis Rader? I don’t know, but for some strange reason, I don’t think if the teacher in this case had been armed (highly doubtful the Amish would have gone along), (s)he could have done much agains someone so determined, and no, I don’t think it would have deterred him.
Tracy, I understand your opinion, but treatment DOES help and many don’t seek it even when they know they should for fear- fear of being reported, fear of their families finding out, fear of losing their jobs..
Which do you do if you think you’re on the verge of losing it…do you tell someone and get help, or do you keep quiet and hope the feelings go away? If you tell someone, and you get medication, you automatically get higher life insurance premiums.
If you think you might hurt yourself or someone, even though you don’t want to, the therapist/doctor/nurse is required to report it, which means you COULD lose your job, your kids, your home….everything you’ve worked your whole life for.
So if you’re in that position, what do you do? We’ve got to make people less afraid to come forward.
Tracy
No, the concealed carry law does not allow teachers to carry on school grounds. I’ll have to read up to make sure, but I believe CCW holders can only carry on school grounds if they pull into the parking lot to pickup/dropoff kids. No more.
I do believe that Kansas law allows for, and I wouldnt take this as gospel without researching it, a school superintendant can give permission to people to carry in his school. It’s probably never done but I think the law is on the books.
heckler, what is it that you think will make us safer?
I’m interested to know.
mom, I understand your viewpoint, and it’s a respectable opinion.I’m sure many would push some sort of legislation towards your view.I just don’t believe it’s realistic, practical or effective.This guy was WAY too sick to make good choices (like getting help), and fear was not a rational motivation. In fact, I’m not sure that he ever did anything 20 yrs ago. He may have fantisized that he did. I do understand what you’re saying about the stigma.Rational people will not seek help because they feel that it would destroy their lives. And I’m sure it would. Your point is valid, and makes my point even stronger!
Heck, I read the part where it’s illegal in, or around state owned facilities.I’m sure you are correct.How would we go about suggesting my idea?Letter to the editor?
Tracy:
No, this isn’t just an American phenomenon. Your suggestion has been adopted. And it apparently works.
http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel200409022215.asp
And yes, a CCH holder may carry in a school, under Federal law, legally (I was informed of same by another writer, who referred the relevant statute – I’m not instantly up on the details of Federal law!). However, the Kansas CCH statute just passed makes schools free fire zones . . . er, I mean, gun-free zones. Can’t carry there. You’re permitted to be a victim, but not defend yourself.I suspect this may raise a howl, and I’m surprised Tracy raised the idea first, but: It may be time to seriously consider such a suggestion as permitting teachers/administrators, properly trained, of course, to carry. It can’t be worse than standing by and having defenseless children be executed. The suggestion only seems radical when one doesn’t consider the alternatives.
BTW- just completed my CCH course. 100%, thank you very much!
Here is why I come to my conclusions Tracy. Remember last year or the year before that when Brooke Shields came out about her postpartum depression? When she felt terrified to be around her baby because she had these visions of hurting her?
I was Brooke 16 years ago. I didn’t know it at the time, but I was in serious depression and having panic attacks, and I had almost the exact same feelings. I remember standing there with my 1 month old daughter in the living room just so afraid I was going to throw her out the window, or just let go and drop her on the floor.
I was terrified to be around her alone, I had no help, but I did have a grandmother who I’d have come over once in awhile. What was the difference between me actually DOING those things, and someone else who really does? And we all know it really does happen. The line seemed so close to me. And I was scared more of telling anyone I was having those feelings for the reasons I stated above.
Those feelings did pass, eventually, but oh how I would have loved to have been able to feel safe talking to someone about it. 16 years ago, that safety wasn’t there.Luckily, today, women in that situation CAN go seek some help because we’ve found that we can help the women who feel that way- that they’re not crazy, they’re not evil.
I’m afraid its not the same with sex offenders. We’re wayyyy behind times scientifically on what helps sex offenders.
mom
I am a strong advocate for arming our teachers and administrators- the one’s who are willing to take that responsibility. It works in Israel against terrorism.(which by the way is also something we need to consider in our country unfortunately).
I don’t have time to get into it right now, I have to go, but you might peruse the following article.
http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel200409022215.asp
There is value in addressing mental health issues in our society but you can’t fix someone unless you know they are broken. Apparently this guys wife(the Amish school assasin/suicide) had no clue he had a problem. Not all school shooters are mentally ill in the classic sense.
But if you are going to address security you need to address all different types of potential threats.
Be back later.
GMC
Where’d you take your class? Did they do a good job?
GMC, AND HECK.Yes it’s me the bed wetting whiney assed liberal. HA.I’m not that damned liberal.I’ll do all I can to promote this.mom, thanks for sharing that.Yes you have a point.I was a pretty hopleless alcoholic for many years, and there’s times that I’m glad I wasn’t around hanguns. A good friend of mine shot himself in the head during an episode of maudlin drunk blackout.He shot himself with a gun I taught him how to use, it was only a .380 and he didn’t get the job done.GMC & HECK,I’m with ya’ on this one.In a small town like mine, you know who the teachers are, and who would be responsible. Let’s keep touting this idea.
Heck:
In Towanda, Saturday. I know that they’ll have another one. Erik King taught it. Check the AG’s list of approved trainers, and you’ll get his e-mail address. the cost was very reasonable. The local instruction was fine, but I’m not particularly impressed by the AG’s required curriculum. If you understand handguns and shoot regularly, you’ll find the class easy. Qualifying is not difficult.
We (I say we because I assisted in the legal aspects in the class, for some consideration) pointed out that qualifying the minimum legal qualifications is not enough; it is important to practice, regularly, with the weapon. To consider the possible ramifications of carrying, and shooting, and the possible scenarios, in advance.
It’s a little like riding a motorcycle: ride always aware of the possible hazards, and looking for a place to put the bike, safely, should a hazard arise. Same thing here; consider the options, and practice, BEFORE you get in the situation; you won’t have time in the moment.
Teachers are certainly capable of same. It’s time to consider this option.
My Father taught hunter’s safety classes for many years, and mentored many young hunters.
Hey, you guys are supposed to say:Hey Trace you ain’t no whiney assed lib, you’re just outspoken!!(not happening, I know)
I used to pour over every issue of guns & ammo, gung ho, and every other gun mag. Not typical lib.I’ve also seen these new “soft” bullets in use, perfect for this type of defense as they minimize collateral damage.
How exactly would they secure the item? I’m afraid it could be lifted off of them pretty easily in a hallway and make it accessible to the kids. I just see this as being one of those false security things that has the potential to backfire badly. And no, I don’t ALWAYS trust teachers to do right. I’ve just seen too many bad apples. Maybe the principal could be packin?
Of course, we’ve already got police in the schools, and they carry guns too. An officer for every school is a great idea.
I don’t like limiting accessibility to kids BY THE PARENTS. We already have side doors and back doors locked. Better security would be the answer, however I”m not hip on not having access to my child at all times. There are far more incidences of abuse by teachers than school shootings.
Bullying is an issue, we have way too many who just blow it off when a kid has trouble in school, double that when they have trouble at home too.
Who knows- I just don’t want to see us creating a bigger problem, when the answer could be far more simple-prevention.
Tracy:
We also ought to teach basic self defense to all students. Teachers should be trained, even now, to NEVER permit themselves or their students to be restrained by an potential assailant – when it’s clear there is a threat, move and attack, NOW. It’s much tougher to hit a moving target; and you give yourself and your students a fighting chance at survival. The alternative, it appears, is quiet execution.
All our middle schoolers ought to be taught basic marksmanship and the four rules of safe gun handling, as well. But that’s another subject . . . .
I’m pretty sure that MORE GUNS is not the answer to random gun violence.
Some problems can’t be solved by shooting at them.
And this from a guy who bought a new Remington 11-87 just two weeks ago.
Capn:
I’ll say this just once: It’s not “gun violence,” it’s people violence. The gun did nothing. The person did.
We have the same goal: keeping our kids and schools safer. But let’s define the problem correctly.
And enjoy the autoloader. Just leave me some quail!
Technically, you are correct, GMC.
But how much “people violence” could he do with a butcher knife or a hammer?
The gun did “nothing?”
I think it multiplied the death toll by 2 or 3 at the least . . .
Capn:
Then at least as to the Amish incident, you haven’t been paying attention. Had he used a knife, he could well have killed them all before officers intervened, as officers only came in the window when they heard a shot.
It’s the weapon, not the wielder. It has always been so. I don’t know how to prevent these nuts from coming in schools; more security is only a partial solution. The best security in the world will not stop the determined attacker. The best I can do is attempt to mitigate the damage. If you have another solution besides permitting school personnel to defend themselves and their charges, I’m all ears.
There has to be a radical change in weapons sold to the general public.
The bullets. Only rubber should be sold for handguns.
For rifles, hunters would get ammo for those. Single shot rifles, shot gun shells would stay the same.
Military style weapons won’t be sold.
America doesn’t need so many gun choices. Or more gun carriers that say they can be “responsible”.
More guns in schools for teachers, administrators, that’s not the answer. Not with weapons that can kill. It takes more training and time than school administrators and teachers have, to be qualified that way. Their overwhelming goal is to educate children, not to be armed and afraid of them.
All the thoughts being armed against the government is paranonia.
Fools arm themselves with thousands of rounds, more than 20 guns, with ideas some anarchy is going to happen they are armed for it.
Criminals will use guns to kill and cause mayhem. But aggressive tactics changing the bullets they shoot with could save more lives.
It would be radical changing weapons in America, but since they can be built, they can be altered, its only a mindset to block change of laws.
I wonder what kind of chemistry or physical attributes are occurring in a psychopathic person?Maybe with genetics we can isolate the causes and eradicate the problem thru physical check ups.Maybe one of these days we can install an attribute meter to warn others when a person is potential to committing a crime.Hell what am I talking about?Sorry, I am just dreaming, been watching too much sci-fi.
GMC
I HAVE a middle school age son. I do not want him anywhere near a gun in school or otherwise. If you want to teach your kids to play with guns go ahead. Leave the rest of us out of it.
Arming teachers or school administrators is also a bad idea. It would present kids with school as some sort of detention facility. My kids middle school is already too close to that.
Terrible things like this happen now and again. It is important to put them in perspective as unfortunate but very rare. It does not make sense to over react and change the way we live becuase of them.
I think we as a society tolerate violence way too much. In my childhood, we could go outside to play, ride our bikes around town without fear. The kids today can’t do the same thing.
Another factor is we have television 24/7 now with hundreds of channels. When that happened, I think television resorted to fill the hours and channels with whatever crap someone wants to show.
Unfortunately, violence and porn seems to be the trash everyone loves. That is human nature?
Look at our news shows in the last several years. Usually they have 2 people sitting and “debating” a topic. Before you know it, one or both are shouting down the ohther one and will resort to name calling. Rush Limbaugh made millions shouting and making fun of the Clintons (Bill, Hillary and their child Chelsea).
Is this really what we want our children to grow up with?
We have children who have grown up with this violence as their daily diet. Is it any wonder the kids nowadays don’t see life the way we do?
I blame these mega churches who lost their focus about 20 years ago.
Now these Neo-Cons are trying to politicize every issue in this country.
These churches need to get back to preaching and taking care of their flocks. Instead, they are too busy erecting gold crosses and monuments to themselves in the name of God?
People,
I could easily kill a half dozen people in minute with one of my samurai swords. I could, if so motivated create an explosive device using a can of lysol, ball bearings and some other ingredients that could kill a bunch of people in short order. A psycho could also run down a bunch of kids with a car or suv after school let out.
These incidents are horrible but guncontrol isn’t he answer. Concealed carry and stand your ground legislation should be the law of the land.
Viva La Revolucion Blanco!!
Come on people. I know Mikey wasnt lying about EVERYTHING in Bowlling for Columbine! I mean come on. Take your basic criminal justice class and you will see that the good ole US of A has so much more gun violence than any other “civilized” country. Seriously now. What is wrong with this picture when a city as big as Toronto Canada that has well over a million people in it has fewer gun fatalities than our little city here? Wake up America. It IS about the guns.. IT IS about the guns! quit being so da*mn blindly patriotic. Yes this is a good country but come on.. why cant we feel safe sending out kids to school .. something so basic. Do we really have to move to another “civilized” country to be able to obtain that peace?????
JR
Unfortunate and rare unless it’s your kids school.
We pride ourselves on being a Christian nation but I believe we are a hypocrit nation. We say one thing and we do an entirely different thing.
We try to police everyone else in the world but we are the ones with the daily violence. Our children are being subjected to violence and perverted adults and we all sit around and wonder why?
The current Mark Foley situation is a prime example. There are Republicans who are actually defending Foley by their silence. It is no wonder our country is facing disasters. Where is the moral compass? And I dont’ mean the Neo-Cons compass – they are too busy overtaking the rest of the world by gunfire.
Ian.. how many minority mass murderers do you recall? most are .. you got it.. MrWhiteAmerican himself. Getting off topic here. How many of the school shooters were minority? Since they began many years ago. How many? Go do a search and come back and let us know when you have facts rather than your backwoods racial slurring and stereotyping. Such responsible gun owners, how do their brats get a hold of their guns then? and Im thinking the guy that did this to this “law abiding responsible white” community in PA yesterday was far from being a minority. Sorry adolf… move along
That’s it, what we need are MORE guns. If more guns made our country safer, then the USA should be the safest country in the entire world. Instead we have the highest murder rate of any industrialized nation.Let’s see…a culture obsessed with violence, self-entitlement, narcissism, diminishing moral values, sexual exploitation, and self-gratification..gee, can’t imagine why we should have any problems!
Shut up, Ian, you’re so boring.
Here are some quick thoughts for Rhonda:
1. Stop teaching compliance when being victimized. Flt 93 gave themselves a fighting chance.2. Just as you can’t make your home burglar proof, you can’t make any public building terror proof.3.Stop making national news stories out of every incident involving guns and schools. It is not a coincidence that there are 3 incidents this week.4.Arming teachers won’t help. If you don’t have the capacity to kill, having the tools is useless.5.Address the hypocrisy of truancy laws. Only the government could force someone into a school and then not take responsibility for their safety.
Folks:
I figured it would be a *%&#storm when I wrote the above. But Tracy can smell the coffee here. So many others of you refuse to deal with the world we live in. In a perfect world, there’d be no guns in school, or anywhere else.
But it’s not a perfect world.
And crying about it will not make it so. SHOULD America have so many guns? Maybe not. But they’re here. They are a part of our history, our cultural traditions, and our constitutional foundations. They’re a reflection of human nature, and yes, the nature of governments. Wishing otherwise will not make it so.
So . . . lets start with the realistic, with what can be done. We know what can’t be done. Banning guns, in any sense, will not work. That’s a given. Banning guns from some places will not work. Banning some types of ammo will not work. There’s too much out there. If we could abolish all firearms tomorrow, within a month, they’d be back.
I read lots of crying, lots of blaming above. However, in all the gnashing of teeth above, I heard no constructive alternatives. I’ll say again, as I wrote to Capn. above: If you have another solution besides permitting school personnel to defend themselves and their charges, I’m all ears. Will it end all shootings? No, the determined nut can hurt you, and me, if he wants to, and no amount of security can change that. Will it save lives? Probably. But doing what we’re doing isn’t working, either. And what’s that definition of insanity again? do we really want to continue to just wring our hands and do the same thing?
So lets operate in the realm of realistic. Rubber bullets? Please. Banning certain types of weapons? I know gun shops that PRAY for talk of gun banning – it drives their sales up. The now-defunct assault weapons ban sold more “assault weapons” than any sales pitch ever. Mrage – a little paranoia is a healthy thing. Remember historically, governments are the biggest killers of all. And JR – I sincerely hope that you are teaching your son about gun safety, for his sake. He is entering a society where the guns are out there, and he will at some point come into contact with one. Ignorance is dangerous to him, to you, and others.
But I digress.
So, lets hear it. Any constructive, realistic solutions? Again, I’m all ears. Give me a realistic alternative.
ProudMan:
I tend to agree with you, especially #1. We have to stop teaching compliance – it gets people killed.
But don’t you see the contradiction between your #1 and #4? Isn’t there a difference between the use of a weapon to victimize and to defend? Why teach active defense, and then bar the tool to give that teacher a fighting chance?
” Or simply realize that in a free society, our best efforts sometimes are going to fail to keep horrible things from happening to innocents, even children?”
Rhonda, what is so bad about hurting innocents? Seems to me like you cannot gush enough about what Tiller does to them? Is it the use of a gun rather than a needle that bothers you most?
GMC,
Its easy to imagine if gun control really happened, gun stores immediately will be shut down. It won’t be announced. Its easily possible.
It should be voluntary to alter guns in society so their less harmful. Less reachable at a distance. If self protection is the only use for guns to carry, its short distance protection. Rubber bullets are perfect for that use.
Too many victims with ammo thats deadly. Reachable victims, deadly at a distance. Law enforcement should only have that ability.
The right to bear arms, doesn’t say what arms should be right to bear. That is for the government to control if they wanted to.
In reality, shutting and locking doors to any building is necessary. No matter if its Amish land or anywhere with little crime. Limiting access only to those people who have legitimate reasons to be on the property. More guns in schools is not an answer.
Something radical must be done because gun crimes are too much in our society.
People with guns will have to be paranoid and hold onto what they have or turn guns in and be a responsible person in our society if the laws are changed.
If government only wants you to have a six shooter for self protection and rubber bullets, that’s it, accept it. You want that government license to carry. Carry what they desire should happen.
Guns to hunt won’t be altered. Only rifles and shotguns. Military style weapons aren’t necessary to hunt animals or people. Guns to hunt can be reduced in style. Less choices for guns to hunt with.
The government could control gun sales and types of weapons sold. Just take business licenses away until gun stores follow the rules.
So gun control is coming tell your paranoid friends and gun store buddies. Society is tired of so many gun deaths in comparison to larger groups of people in other countries.
I have no solution for the head cases that suddenly explode after years of suppressed psychotic anxities.
This being from a conservative, don’t anyone faint from shock. Gun laws need to be change and technology should be utilized to do it.
My proposal is design all firearms where they have have to be electronically registered with your telephone number. You cannot remove the firearm from it’s authorized storage area, unless you make a call to the registry service that monitors firearms.
Further, would put in devices at certain secret locations in highways, stores, public locations, schools, courthouses, etc that would disable any firearms outfitted with the electronic devices.
Would make it a huge fine to disable/modify the device (100,000 dollars would be appropriate) and a 10 year federal firearms felony charge.
Would give people 10 years to comply before it was mandantory.
Would suggest/require that makers of transportation and conveyances, cars, trucks, planes, buses, etc. be required to have devices installed in them that disable all firearms with these devices. Further, would suggest/require that the enabling of a firearm during a transporation phase would have to be done at a certified station (police, game warden,etc.) before the firearm could be used.
Would require that new ammunition be made when purchased is tied to the electronic signature of the new weapons. If the electronic signature doesn’t match, the weapon won’t fire. A record of each bullet fired would be recorded with time, location and owners/users data. GPS technology integrated with the electronic device.
Would suggest that older firearms not outfitted with an electronic device be fitted with one and comply with the same standards as above.
Yes, I have weapons and don’t have a problem with any of the above. If someone has something to hide, there is bound to be some objections. No amendment violations here, just common sense.
JM,
I have no idea how that technology would work even though you described it. Too many different agencies involved with your technology thoughts. To damper weapons in a zone or area, in a building electronically? What if the power is out? That could happen in 2050 lets say. Things should be different by then. I’ll be 84.
My rubber bullet proposal and less types of weapons sold is more doable today.
Charge all who use deadly ammo, to even protect themselves, with a crime.
Laws of the land changes to rubber bullets, limited type of weaponry. All the wanna be rambo’s and citizen protectors have to make a decesion on ammo to use.
Deadly ammo can be outlawed by the government. Limited style of guns allowed. No one is harmed their ability to buy a weapon. Less deadly weapons on the street.
Never will disarm criminals but they could run out of ammo or risk making their own. Those are criminal actions when they are caught using a gun in society for crimes.
All those with hundreds of rounds of deadly ammo, that can be used in target practice or when America breaks down into their fantasy anarchy ideas. Using deadly ammo on the street can be outlawed.
No one is going door to door taking weapons away. Laws changed on ammo used in society would lead to less deaths by guns. Gun deaths by rubber bullets could happen, if a person is shot in the wrong place on their body. Person could be blundged to death by a rubber bullet gun handle. Crimes will still occur.
Less deadly ammo laws is very possible.
Why do you ask do scumbags like this do these terrible things?
Because American culture is the “Culture of Death.”
The late John Paul II was right.
Whaddaya know?
You can’t fight fire with fire on this issue. We need to step back and take this whole sick sad culture back to formula.
The only reason this guy did this is because he COULD. Educators are known as a liberal, peace-loving, anti-gun bunch. That’s why the “arm the teachers” proposal would never work. They balk at ex-military becoming teachers, and strive to keep military recruiters out of their schools. They are afraid of guns, and think the guns themselves are evil. They think that by cooperating with the madman, they will be OK. I can hear the voices saying, “go ahead and let him tie us up, then he won’t hurt us!”The world has had guns for hundreds of years, and before that, daggers, spears, and rocks. Today’s world has more drugs, sex, fanaticism, and yet we think that in today’s “enlighted” world, we don’t need guns? The handgun was made to kill or disable people who are threatening you. By design, it’s a defensive weapon. It only works as an offensive weapon when the other person is defenseless. If this evil bastard even thought their might be ONE gun in the hands of somebody willing to use it, he probably wouldn’t have gone there.
Marty,
You have issues, nothing helpful about the tragedy. Its GUN PRO individuals like you and criminals, a process has to begin taking the deadly firepower out of your hands in the streets.
That’s what today’s enlighted world can learn to do. That’s what government should do.
No one will take the gun you love and the use of it, but the deadly ammo can be altered to protect more citizens.
Still with a rubber bullet gun, more shouldn’t be in schools, armed administrators or teachers. Ex-military teacher trained, whatever.
Who do they have to be armed against, the kids or strangers coming into school? Should it be a holster? Would gun in a desk drawer be too far away in a sudden emergency, gun crazy person walks into the classroom? You can’t train for every scenerio having a gun.
I don’t remember asking if any of my grade school teachers were ex-military liked it mattered.
Again, lock a door so gun holding people can’t enter a building or room easily, quietly.
It’s up to society limiting the force of firepower in the streets. It’s the government’s job to enforce peace.
Mrage,There are two extremes here: One in which we militarize our schools, and another in which we demilitarize everyone. I believe both to be wrong.
Will,
I don’t want more guns at schools that’s the first thing. Secondly, too many Americans want to be armed for whatever reason. Take the Constitution too far on militia thoughts.
We can’t disarm, there is no political will to make citizens behave that way. Government can’t everywhere protecting all citizens, at any time crime happens.
I understand being armed, I can’t stand the use of weapons going off in society. Victims are dying by sorry criminals. I want more lives saved in those terrible moments. Criminals have a gun in their hand, but its less deadly ammo.
Unless they load it with deadly ammo, they are the worst of criminals defined and sentenced when caught.
More gun protectors in the streets, or on school campus, some groups can’t afford the manpower hours.
Why its happening in today’s society, morals are shot in a lot of people. Bad parenting makes criminal kids? Seems the blame, something tragic happened to a criminal’s childhood, they act out as adults.
GMC70,
#4 is more than a little stereotyping. Most teachers/educators I know don’t have it in them to handle lethal tools. Notice I didn’t say “don’t give it to them”. What I did say was it wouldn’t help.
GMC70:”So, lets hear it. Any constructive, realistic solutions? Again, I’m all ears. Give me a realistic alternative.”
That was a great post, man.I agree with so much of what you said.Yes, the sheer qty of guns, and especially handguns in this country is absolutely lending to many ACCIDENTAL shootings. Pre-meditated doesn’t apply, they are not crimes of opportunity or accidents.That being said, we know that almost every kid in this country is going to be near guns at some point in their childhood, even if it’s a field trip to the local police station.That being said, IMHO, we have a DUTY to teach our children about guns and safe handling of guns.HOW MANY KIDS OUT THERE COULD TELL THE DIFFERENCE between a safe unloaded gun, and a gun that is SET TO GO OFF????And without looking down the barrel and blowing their own head off???And in conclusion, I think it’s just common sense. Even if you never, ever plan on owning guns or hunting, PLEASE, PLEASE, have your kids attend a hunter’s safety course.We teach our kids how to swim, how to drive safely, stranger safety, just say no to sex and drugs, BUT WE SEND THEM OUT INTO this gun saturated world WITHOUT the knowledge to load, unload, fire, or even CHECK the safety of any gun they might encounter????NOT WISE.
I agree with GMC when he says it’s the violator not the weapon. Why not hold the violator responsible for his actions? Even better, why not address what causes people to turn criminal in the first place? Single parent families, teenagers that are parents, Poor parenting, kids being raised by their grandmother or aunt because their mother and/or father are in prison… I could on and on and on…People like the shooter in PA are more often than not made criminal not born criminal. If our country held parents to a higher standard, maybe we could prevent kids from turning criminal in the first place.
Tracy
Kudos, for logic and common sense.
Tracy is over reacting to an isolated incident.
Folks like Heckler and GMC exploit such hysteria.
Ask yourself just what is behind GMC’s desire to get my kid learning about guns. I say it is to attempt to perpetuate the gun culture in this country. I’ve no interest in my kid being taught to embrace or even accept that culture.
I do not begrudge others the right to their pop gun of choice so long as that right is exercised with standards a little more reasonable than we currently have. But my son and I are not interested in hunting. Shooting at paper targets is expensive and not terribly interesting. So that really eliminates any reason we would have to play about with guns.
We DO have 2 shotguns. They and the ammo for them are locked safely away. To do otherwise in a house where a child lives is inviting tragedy.
JR
I don’t know how old your kid is but you should at some point teach him how to tell if a gun is loaded and how to safely unload it. While your at it teach him how to use a fire extinguisher and how to safely knock a window out to escape your house/apartment.
If teaching a kid about safe sex won’t promote sexual activity teaching them about gun safety won’t promote shooting activity.
We try lot’s of things to keep our schools safe, some work, most don’t. GMC, Tracy, and I are still waiting for some solid ideas beyond arming teachers. Do you have any to offer JR?
I remember a story from Columbine, can’t remember who told it, a teacher, student, or fireman.
High schoolers can be kind of standoffish towards public servants like cops and firemen, some wouldnt give a cop the time of day. That changed for one terrible day. Cops and firemen were literally peeling kids off of themselves that day.
I think gun banners are the same way about guns, they hate them and/or fear them, doing their best to do away with them. Until the SHTF. Be it a home invasion or civil unrest, they all beg the man with the gun to come to their rescue, some even beg the neighbor who has guns to sell them one.
Guns in schools BAAAD!!!…until…
If we act as sheep and teach our children to act as sheep, then they know no better than to die as sheep.
We have a society that has done about everything possible to remove God, so our children grow up thinking there is no higher moral law. We have a culture of death where we can’t even stop late term abortions. And we have the media and popular culture in the form of movies, books, and magazines that glorifies violence, death, and pornography, making it all look acceptable and normal.
God help us!
AMERICA HELD HOSTAGE:DAY 2082….
JR, I’m not over-reacting.We have the same goals in mind,safety of our kids.My suggestion about your shotgun would be: as soon as those kids are old enough to get into things they shouldn’t (perhaps they find the key?), take a jug of water, or even better, a watermelon, and show them exactly what that gun will do if they mess with it.Kids are so pumped full of army movies, cop shows, and violent “heroes”, that I do not believe they have a realistic concept of what a shotgun does, especially at close range!!How many movies have we seen somebody walk up and shoot a lock off of something at close range.Even a fairly average adult may not realize that doing this could very well kill them and leave the lock in place.I’m ALL FOR EDUCATION.Knowledge never killed anybody.If we teach them how to use a condom, we ought to teach them how to safely handle and unload a gun.Not to further a ‘gun culture’, but to help prevent tradgedy.
JR:
“Ask yourself just what is behind GMC’s desire to get my kid learning about guns.”
What is behind that “desire?” How ’bout this, JR: So your child will not kill himself or you out of sheer ignorance. The realities of this society are being ignored by yourself, by Mrage, by JM and others who want to put their head into the sand, or rely on some magic technological fix, some magic bullet (pun intended) to make it all OK.
Ain’t gonna happen. We live in a gun culture. Period. Has been so for 300+ years. Nothing you or I can do will change that, nor am I convinced it should change. The very LAST thing I (or you, given your political bent) should want is a society where government has a monopoly on firearms. You think you fear tyranny now?
“Tracy is over reacting to an isolated incident.”
That’s three “isolated incidents,” JR. In one week. If I heard a news report accurately, over 200 students were killed in schools by these “isolated incidents” in the last decade or so. Tracy’s not over-reacting, she’s saying what I think all of us are saying: ENOUGH! Lets do something about it, now, in the real world. And she’s offered one proposal to think about.
I have yet to hear any viable suggestions as to school safety/security upgrades other than permitting qualified, trained teachers/administrators, who wish to do so, be armed. That means carried, concealed, on their person. Not in a desk drawer, or in a purse in a closet, but on their person – it’s basic gun security. Will every teacher carry? No, and none should be required to. Should students or others outside schools know who’s carrying? Absolutely not.
Will this prevent all tragedies? Not at all; I have no illusions that the world will suddenly be hunky-dory. But I suspect it will save lives.
Give me a realistic, right-now, real world alternative. I’m still listening.
GMC
You prove my point. You are using this incident to perpetuate the gun culture. Not only that; you are telling me that I am irresponsible not to embrace that culture. In a previous post, you advocated mandatory gun exposure and use in middle schools. You want to attempt to force this nations long and unfortunate love affair with guns on my kid against my will.
Heckler you are doing it too. You would have society regard a gun as just another everyday object like say a fire extinguisher.
Let’s talk Columbine shall we? It was the easy availability and cavalier attitude as to guns that made that incident possible. In GMC’s world, the perpetrators would simply have had more training and perhaps been better shots.
I have nowhere advocated that the government should have a monopoly on firearms. I simply would like guns to be less readily available.
Any security measure I might suggest would have been just as useless in this particualar incident as the teacher having a gun would have been. The intruder was a person known to the folks in the school. Sadly there really is no way this guy could have been stopped.
What has changed is that coverage creates hysteria. I also think the numbers of mass killings are increasing. However, i’ve read that our school are actually safer than in the past. That is because the nation as a whole is becoming less violent. Remember, the Coca Cola corporation kills more people every week than all the school shooters and terrorists have in the history of the nation. We should be afraid of our real enemies, and viligant to prevent tragedies like those which have happened recently.
JR:
“…you are telling me that I am irresponsible not to embrace that culture.”
I’m telling you that you are irresponsible to send your kids out into this culture without the basic knowledge that may save their lives, or others. Ignorance gets people killed. Whether you embrace the “gun culture” is up to you and they, ultimately. You, and especially they, need not stay ignorant. You (and your kids) need not live with your head buried in the sand.
That said; would an armed & trained teacher/administrator have made a difference in these incidents? I don’t know. Could it have been worse? I doubt it. Certainly, there is no absolute defense for the determined nut; the best we can do is hope to intercept and stop him. Tracy and I have offered one option to attempt to do that.
You’ve offered . . . . what, exactly? Nothing, that I can tell.
I have to ask, and I’ll probably regret this, but:
“Remember, the Coca Cola corporation kills more people every week than all the school shooters and terrorists have in the history of the nation.”
Citation, evidence? Be specific.
I think GMC is correct when he says there is no absolute protection from the determined nut. A determoned and highly motivated individual that wants a gun and/or ammo controlled or not can ALWAYS get one though legal or illegal means. That is part of what makes them criminal.I am not crazy about arming teachers or school administrators either. Just because a person is armed with a gun doesn’t mean they can or will use it in a deadly force situation. Teachers or administrators do not deal with these deadly force situations on a regular basis and to trust them to make a decision to shoot or not shoot is akin to asking a dentist to remove your gall bladder. Can the dentist remove your gall bladder? Yeah proabably in a pinch, but would you want him to?How about controlled access to schools? Anybody that requires access to a school for whatever reason would be required to carry and display an ID/sensor card such as the type required at a lot of gov’t offices. Only those with such an ID/card could gain access.
Well GMC
I have not addressed school security because I don’t think that is what you are really about here.
Like I said, any ideas I or anyone could think of would not likely have altered this case.
That said, I had in mind an idea similar to what Nick posted. Aircraft plants have perimeter turnstyles activated by employee badges. School gates and doors could easily have something similar to that. Think in terms of modern hotel key cards. But that would not stop someone with trusted access to the school as this sick man had.
JR
“I have not addressed school security because I don’t think that is what you are really about here.”
You’re now psychic too? Just what else has this thread been about? I’ve not questioned your motives, I’ll thank you to not question mine. I’m about as transparant as I can be.
I’ve been in those schools, thankfully never in a truly violent situation, and I understand them. And while such limiting access as noted above would help, it would create other problems. One thing we DON’T want to do is put up more barriers between our schools and their communities. And lets be blunt: Access is ALREADY limited in similar ways. I’m not opposed to increasing such security; I just have real doubts as to whether it would work, as it’s just more of the same. Remember that the intruder incident, like those seen recently, is the exception. Most shooting incidents were from students, who were where they were supposed to be.
I don’t come to the proposal Tracy and I have made lightly; it is one I am not entirely comfortable with. Certainly it carries with it other issues and concerns. But it strikes me that we can either do nothing or more of the same, and continue to watch kids die (400 in the last decade, according to today’s Eagle), or we can try something different to intercept and stop these kinds of unpredictable assailants.
You’ve opted for more of the same, apparantly. I pray our kids do not continue to pay the price for that.
GMC, I am in agreement, but….before we go to far here,a little background.I’m a 46 yr old male, white (unlike Ian-HA), married, grandfather of two.My father took me hunting, fishing, whitewater canoeing, camping, hiking, and generally taught me how to get along with guns, nature, and other people.So, for your mental picture of where I come from, I want you to see an experienced gun handler, not some city gal with protection in my purse.Now back to the point.No, arming ANY teacher is not the best thing, but unless your school can afford law enforcement professionals full time, I haven’t heard any better options.Beyond that, I don’t believe that GMC or I either one are gun nuts, survivalists or generally whacko.At least GMC is not, I can’t speak for myself on that one–HA.Even if we rule out ANY weapons in school EVER, our point still stands, that young adults and older children should be taught about gun safety.I do not promote or condone a culture of weapons and violence, rather a culture of knowledge and choices. I personally do not think that this education should be mandatory, but I STRONGLY recommend some education.I can’t speak for other gun safety educators, but Dad was an extrordanary sporstman and teacher who never even gave off a whif of gun nut. He taught respect for something this powerful and dangerous.JR, I do respect your views on this, and they are not without other supporters nationwide.You should have a right to decide what your kids are taught and/or exposed to. I have no respect for the gun lobby, but all respect for our kids and adults who should know how to safely handle a gun, wether they own one or not.
Tracy:
It appears we have a great deal in common; and probably agree on much more than we disagree. I’d like to see every kid come out of middle school with a firm understanding of the four rules of gun safety. But then, I have a fairly long list of what kids ought to come out of school with, much of which isn’t happening . . .
In the meantime, I hope that policy-makers, at least somewhere, will at least consider the option we’ve outlined. I can tell you that we are not alone in just Wichita thinking about this. If it works, great. If not, we’ve lost what, exactly? The alternative appears to be more carnage.
BTW – 46, no grandkids yet (thankfully). When those g-kids come, all will be taught gun safety, along with other common sense basics.
JR,Teaching kids about gun safety is not the same as teaching them to embrace the “gun culture” WHATEVER that is! Heckler is right, we teach our kids about contraception and staying safe when it comes to sex. (Since sex in this day and age can be just as lethal as a loaded gun.) Does that mean that since we teach our kids about safe sex that we’re inadvertently teaching them to embrace “free love”? I must respectfully disagree with you JR.
Of course in this more rural community, there are many more hunters and a big demand for safety classes. Dad only owned one handgun, a P-38 from WWII, and only shot it once that I know of.Probably worth something, had the German eagle insignia on the side.I always imagined it as an officers pistol, but don’t know thi history. Walthers 9mm, I believe. The only time we shot anything for fun, it was clay pigeons. I have fond memories of cousins having skeet shoots at our family reunions, girls included.Just to emphasize the point, there’s a HUGE difference in a sportsman and a gun nut.
Off topic, but I want to support my statement that the Coca Cola Corporation is a greater threat to the nation than all the terrorists and school shooters combined.
I support it by inferences; for example, in Mexico, the number on killer is diabetes. Mexico is also the number one per capita consumer of soft drinks.
Also, recent European studies concluded that soft drink consumption is the number one cause of obesity and in fact, if soft drinks were taken out of the diet, there would be no increase in obesity beyond traditional levels.
Go to the convenience store: Check out the guts of the people with the 72 ounce cups. The bigger the cup, the bigger the behemoth.
As for citations: Plug obesity, and soft and drink into your search engine. Or try diabetes, soft and drink.
DK:
So let me see -I produce a product that people like, but too much is bad. Individuals, of their own free will, with their own hard-earned money, eat or drink too much of my product.
And it’s MY fault??? Just how, exactly, does that work?
Coke didn’t kill them. They killed themselves.
“Europeon studies?” You’ll have to do better than that. You made the assertion. Liars, damn liars, and statisticians. “Studies” show little except what the financier of the study wanted to “prove.”
How ’bout this: the problem isn’t so much diet as it is lifestyle. To use an analogy, if one wishes to eat like a farmer (bacon and eggs, ham, sausage gravy, potatoes, etc.) regularly, one needs to work like a farmer, or there will be a problem. But one cannot eat like a farmer and work in an office with little physical exertion and expect to be lithe and trim.
Our problems with obesity in this country, aside from the silly definition of obesity itself, is not caused by diet, it’s the lack of physical labor in large parts of the population.
Wanna fix obesity? Get rid of much of the last century’s labor-saving inventions, and obesity will largely disappear. Partly because we will work harder, partly because the food supply we enjoy today would no longer exist. Fair trade, I’d say.