The topic of shoring up the Mexican border with a $7 billion fence has gotten a lot of political mileage this election season. But the reality few want to talk about is the dollar value we save from this labor force.
Ask the orchard owners in Northern California who saw millions of pounds of fruit go to waste because they couldn’t get enough workers to pick it on time. The understatement of the election year comes from a manager of a large California tomato grower: “Americans don’t raise their children to be farm workers.”
The growers’ work force historically has been made up of seasonal migrant workers who cross over the border during harvest, and then return to Mexico. Since Sept. 11, the migrant workers have had problems getting back in the United States, or they stayed here but moved on to find year-round work to pay for permanent housing.
Any idea where the roofers replacing your hail-damaged roof were working last year?
The next time you go to the store and flinch at paying $1.59 for a pound of apples, you need to think: How much more are you willing to pay for those apples when you have to pay the equivalent of your own wages and benefits for someone to pick them?
Posted by Angie Holladay
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31 Comments
If the apple growers in California cannot find enough workers to pick their fruit, then why not form a new government program.
We can take all the petty criminals out of prisons and make them go to work at industries where the illegal immigrants usually work. That will take the burden off the prisons and leave more space for the violent offenders.
While working off their sentences, these petty criminals will be paid wages that the growers would be paying illegal immigrants. These prisoners would then be to pay for their own rehab treatment if there are drug or alcohol issues.
It would be much like a boot camp for petty criminals.
Oh Angie,
I am so deeply disapointed in you.
You are an intern right? You are an intern for a desk job. Most likely, you have never really worked for a living.
Angie? I’ll pick apples. Let me qualify that. I’ll pick apples if I can earn a wage that does not force me to live in a two room apartment with 27 other people picking apples.
What? the price of apples will go up? Well then those orchard owners can take the hit in THEIR bottom line to keep the price competetive! That or I can choose to quit eating apples.
Americans cannot compete with what is foreign defacto slave labor. I have to really wonder at folks like you Angie who would have us try.
LOLOk, this is the MOST fun I have had yet on this Blog!
HEY LIBERAL UNION MEMBERS, YOUR HERO RAJ GOYLE SUPPORTS ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION, OPPOSES DEPORTATION OF ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS, AND OPPOSES THE “REAL ID ACT” THAT MAKES IDENTITY THEFT, BY ILLEGAL ALIENS AND BY TERRORISTS, MORE DIFFICULT!
http://www.americanprogress.org/kf/deporting_the_undocumented.pdf
http://www.wm.edu/news/?id=5424
http://www.movingideas.org/chat/Immigration/Immigration.php
http://www.watchingjustice.org/events/event.php?docId=77
(fair disclosure here, we are facing a labor shortage in this country, due in large measure to the graying baby boomers, smaller families, etc. I think we need immigrants, I just want to control the process. However, Raj Goyle is hiding his immigration views from the Machinists Union, isn’t he???)
Hey Rosell,
You would defend Bush for hours if he were to pull his trousers down on Pennsylvania Ave and take a dump. Let’s hear you defend BUSH’s immigration policies.
Oops, do I hear the strain, dysregulation, and explosion of a robic mind. I guess I do. Too bad.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/05/16/immigration/index.html
I’m looking forward to this, you hypocrit.
“robic” – should be “robotic”. But then again Paul’s mind is on the abbreviated side, so it may be that my id was speaking truth when I typed.
Why would anyone worry about jobs they consider below them when the can make more money on the welfare system?
Bull bull. My grandfather’s dairy farm always hired AMERICAN farm hands, and they did more than just pick fruit, they shoveled manure, calved, and all that nasty stuff. The difference was that he PAID them.
A labor shortage, not. Have you tried looking for a job lately?
And I’m not talking in Wichita neither.
There is no labor shortage, any job that can be offshored will leave. If the administration wants to control immigration fine the employers. Also there is no limit on visas for farm workers you just have to provide decent housing and healthcare.
Yet another incredibly weak justification for illegal immigration. Who picked the goddamn apples before the criminals crossed the border? Who laid the shingles? That’s right, Americans did, before these criminals showed up and drove the wages down for everybody.
This is the same argument that they used to promote slavery. We managed to survive without slaves because it was wrong. Illegals are a treat to this country. We don’t know who or what they are. They don’t come to melt into the society here they have proved that. Imigrants must swear allegiance to this nation to become citizens and these fly a different flag. Employers who are hiring illegal aliens should be hurt by the deportation of these alien they are breaking the law. They should be in jail. I could make a lot of money by selling drugs. It isn’t justification to let me do it. The cost of food will increase I suppose but the cost of providing the services that the employers obviate will also disappear.
Let’s see, I build a huge Apple Orchard far away from any population center, I pay $3.50/hour and provide no other benefits like toliets near the work area. I also don’t have to pay taxes on employee wages because I sort of doing all this under the table.
Yeah, I pretty much think that’s a tailor method set up for failure.
You know, there’s one big flaw in all of these arguments. In Mexican mountain villages (served by highways) washington apples are cheaper than they are in U.S. supermarkets. So are plums from Chili. And in general, the apples and plums are fresher.
Good thing for me that I raise & pick my own apples, peaches, nectarines, plums, cherries, strawberries, blackberries & pears! Having my own orchard means I don’t have to rely on cheap ’slave labor’ or worry about the ever-increasing price for tasteless half-ripe fruit at the grocery store.
Now if only more people would attempt to raise even a small portion of their own food…
Oh, and another comment: Watched “The Mexican-American War” on the history channel last night. Do you realize that almost all the territory we took in that war is now populated by Mexican-Americans? Ha, ha. And, further more, since Mexican-Americans have Indian blood —- ha ha. You make the conclusion.
Here’s mine. Population dynamics trump borders.
politicalmomYou need to catch up on your “homework” and study this issue some more.Currently, just in Kansas, we have roughly 1200 people turning age 65 every month.In about 5 years that number will probably be close to 2000. (65 years ago we were still in WW2)In 10 years that number will probably be well over 3000, maybe higher, turning 65 every month.Some people will die, some people will move, but the numbers are going up, even if my targets arent on the money.We will NOT have that many people turning 18, out of high school, or 22-23, out of college in those years.We are facing a HUGE labor shortage.Boomers might work longer. Especially professionals, who tend to ignore age and tend to enjoy their careers.However, we do need educated high school grads and college grads.The illegal immigrants can’t replace the Machinists or the nurses or the fireman and policeman who will be retiring in record numbers very soon.Look up these topics:
The Birth Dearth.”The Great Boom Ahead” Harry Dent.”The Roaring 2000’s” Harry Dent.
We are facing a huge labor shortage, but we can’t meet that need with uneducated illegal aliens.We should control immigration and require education and some indication that those comming here have the ability to contribute to society.Now, the interesting point, again, is that Democrat Raj Goyle, is a staff attorney for the ACLU, which fights deportations in Court and lobbies against tighter immigration laws.
You Democrats go on and on about what you see as Republican “failures” on immigration, even though a fence IS being built on the border. (Environmentalists, backed by the ACLU, blocked one fence South of San Diego until Congress ordered the Courts to stay out of it, stripping them of jurisdiction.)
—Yet, when Republican like Representative Bonnie Huy oppose drivers licenses for illegals or in state tuition for illegals, you Democrats would prefer Goyle?Wake up!Immigration is not my top issue, not by a long shot, but immigration is a top issue to many of you on the left.Goyle is your enemy on the immigration issue!
So if there is a labor shortage in the next 10 years, Bush and his cronies will solve that problem by outsourcing all the jobs so his corporate buddies can make that extra million.
Problem solved.
So, we’re now saying those 30 million dead babies + their offspring , may have been useful…? Am I following this?
But according to the Republicans line about why we need illegal immigrants, those 30 million dead babies and their offspring “would not take those jobs”.
Paul Roshill, paid AIPAC employee, is all hot and bothered about Raj Goyle.
What’s that all about?
It means he’s kicking ass in the 87th.
Sucks to be Republican, doesn’t it Paul?
I love the “framing” of this question:
“How much more are you willing to pay for those apples when you have to pay the equivalent of your own wages and benefits for someone to pick them?”
This implies that the cost of food is directly related to cost of growing and harvesting it.
It DOESN’T.
The cost of a 3.27 box of cereal is 18 worth of grain.
The farmer could double or triple his profits and the consumer wouldn’t even notice it.
The costs are all in processing, advertising, transportation, storage, and retailing–and so are the PROFITS.
Farm prices are kept artificially low by monopsony (oligarchy of BUYERS) which becomes a monopoly (oligarchy of sellers) to the retailers.
It’s those people who set the prices and make the money.
Illegals have nothing to do with anything . . .
And JR is right.
You can always find workers to do a job for a decent wage.
I thought that’s what the “free market” was all about.
Funny, you only hear about the “free market” when it’s free to make big business huge profits. When it’s free to allow unions to go on strike, then it’s not “free” anymore . . .
I can’t believe I agree with Paul on this (I kind of feel dirty about it)!Those of you against immigrant labor, put your money where your mouth is.I would challenge any of you that think they could run a profitable apple business with wages paid to the laborers that would qualify them as “good jobs” to post on here a projected business plan.
Do a little research into the margin growers make on something like apples. Then research the cost of salary and benefits for a worker with a “good job.” It should take simple math to figure up how many apples must be sold to cover the costs for one worker (yes, salaries and benefits are a cost of production). Next, find the apple yield per acre and find how many acres would be needed to cover the salaries. Then see how many workers it would take to work that many acres.
You will find that it would be impossible to make a profit. Don’t believe me? Prove me wrong.
Brian–
You’re right as far as it goes.
Apple producers are forced by their BUYERS to keep the prices low by using migrant (read: illegal) labor.
But how much of the cost of 1.57 bag of apples goes to the orchard?
I don’t know. But if it’s anything like wheat and corn and chickens and pork–and there’s no reason it shouldn’t be–the money is going to Archer-Daniels-Midland or Tyco Foods.
It’s not going to the producer.
The FARMER is pushed to the wall to keep costs down. But not from the consumer. It’s from the middle men.
Liberals should be aghast at the lack of Diversity in illegal immigration. How can liberals sleep at night knowing the illegal aliens invading America are not a diverse group? Doesn’t anyone else feel diminished and ashamed that Americas illegal aliens are not a diverse group. Please, what about our needs for more illegal immigration so our illegal immigrants will be a diverse group.
Apple pickers and roofers now. These are smart people. The next generation will be newspaper opinion editors, school teachers, police officers, business owners. What’s that saying, “the only thing constant is change”!
I worked with Mexican farmworkers for five summers. Basically, they came up during the growing season, most were housed in simple, but clean labor camps, and took a lot of money home (in today’s dollars often over $50,000 cash was saved) where they built nice homes, and lived well in their home country, because goods were much cheaper there than here. Green cards weren’t forged. Growers had to pay minimum wage, i.e. $10 per hour in today’s dollars, but with most harvesting being piecework, $20-30 per hour was the norm, in today’s dollars, because the Mexicans figured out efficiency strategies and used them well.
The problem is, the migrant Mexico-to-America-back-to-Mexico scheme that required 100,000 seasonal laborers was ruined by people who wanted year-round cheap labor, including garment shop owners, building contractors, restarauters, hotel operators, meat packers, building operators and working professional women seeking housekeeper/in-home childcare providers.
If people want the illegal immigrants to go home, the solution is to fine employers who want cheap year-round labor at levels that make illegal hiring cost-ineffective.
“Americans don’t raise their children to be farm workers.”
That’s because big business hires illegal immigrants whom they exploit by paying ridiculously low wages driving down the salaries of the American farm worker which like lumberjacking and meat packing used to be a well-paying job. You can’t sacrifice the American worker for the sake of big business assholes saving a few bucks (making a bigger profit). Ah, but the American worker isn’t super rich so the government doesn’t give a shit about them now do they? They’re better put to use as cannon fodder for the next Bumbling Fucking Moron President’s War anyway! When the time comes when the urban cosmo Yuppies are replaced with super-computers which are cost effective (can be mass-produced) Then those Cessna engineers and computer programmers can kiss their 60,000 dollar salaries goodbye. Until then, it’s the poor Americans who get the short end of the stick.
So you better get used to Pancho guys, him and tens of millions of his cousins are coming to set up camp, and they’re here to stay.
Heartlander,In what fantasy world did you grow up in? $20-30 hr. was the norm for migrant laborers? You are so full of it!
Paying field workers $15 per hour would raise the cost of a head of lettuce ten cents. Currently the field workers cut of the cost of a head of lettuce is approx six cents. The “we can’t afford it” argument is just another attempt by liberals at propaganda on this issue.Facts are hard things for liberals to deal with.
Lies, lies and more lies; the truth is that deprortation will work and will be cost effective!”A recent study questions whether deporting illegal immigrants would be worth the cost. Deporting the Undocumented: A Cost Assessment, [PDF] was published by the Center for American Progress, a liberal think-tank. It’s touted as the first-ever estimate of costs associated with apprehending, detaining, prosecuting, and removing immigrants who have entered the United States illegally or overstayed their visas.The cost of mass deportation according to CAP: $206 billion over five years ($41.2 billion per year). This study assumes that about 10 million illegals would be subject to deportation and 2 million would leave voluntarily if a mass deportation program was announced.But $206 billion is an absurdly large figure. The largest chunk of it is apprehension costs ($141 billion). In arriving at this figure, researchers blithely assumed that the historical, abysmally low, deportee apprehension rates would continue under a mass deportation regime:‚”We extrapolate from the available evidence to provide an estimate of the per-apprehension cost. In 1999, 240 agents apprehended 2,849 unauthorized workers, and, as noted above, 90 agents apprehended 445 unauthorized workers in 2003. Assuming a typical annual cost of $175,714 per agent, and after summing the number of apprehensions (3,294) and agents (330), the average apprehension cost comes to $17,603. Assuming a 20% voluntary departure rate, the total costs for apprehending 8,000,000 undocumented immigrants would be $141 billion over five years.”Ten deportees per agent per year is the apprehension rate the researchers used in estimating the cost of apprehending 8 million illegals. Ten per year! You can find more illegals in front of Wal-Mart in a single afternoon.But even if $206 billion was a reasonable cost estimate, mass deportation would be well worth it. Just consider the economic burden illegal aliens impose on the rest of us:Federal Deficit: The average illegal alien household receives $2,736 more Federal services than it pays in taxes. (See Table 1.) Since there are at least 3.8 million such households, the total drain on the federal budget is about $10.3 billion. [Steven A. Camarota, "The High Cost of Cheap Labor: Illegal Immigration and the Federal Budget," CIS, August 2004]These are conservative estimates. CIS assumes, for example, an illegal immigrant population of 8.7 million (the official Census Bureau figure) versus 10 million assumed in the deportation study. VDARE.COM’s D.A. King, later supported by other researchers [PDF] puts the illegal alien population as high as 20 million.State and local deficits: The comprehensive immigration study sponsored by the National Research Council [The New Americans: Economic, Demographic, and Fiscal Effects of Immigration, 1997] examined the fiscal impact of immigrants in California. While it did not explicitly compare illegal and legal immigrants, the NRC research staff found that the average immigrant household generated $3,823 more state and local spending than it paid in state and local taxes. (See Table 2.) Using California as a proxy for the national average, I estimate that illegal aliens increase state and local deficits by about $15 billion annually.American worker displacement effects: There are roughly 7 million illegal immigrants working in the U.S. ‚Äì about 3.5 percent of the labor force. Each 1 percent rise in U.S. labor force due to immigration reduces native-born wages by about 0.35 percent, according to George Borjas. [PDF] It follows, then, that illegal immigrant workers reduce wages of U.S.-born workers by approximately 1.2 percent (3.5X0.35).If politicians don’t care, they should. Assuming native-born federal, state, and local tax payments fall by the same percent, native workers cough up $26 billion less taxes due to unfair competition from illegal alien workers.Total fiscal benefits of deportation are thus estimated at $51 billion per year—$25 billion in deficit reduction and $26 billion in foregone displacement losses.At this rate, mass deportation would pay for itself in about four years.Plus, of course, we’d get America back.”http://www.vdare.com/rubenstein/060126_nd.htmV.L.R.B!!!