It’s a little disconcerting that arena officials still haven’t started looking for a major headliner for the downtown arena grand opening scheduled for early 2009. Big acts like the Stones or the Boss often have to be secured years in advance. The same goes for scheduling marquee basketball games.
Sedgwick County Commissioner Dave Unruh allowed in a recent meeting with The Eagle editorial board that maybe an opening act should have been booked by now. But he said that the county first wanted to decide on management for the facility — a decision is expected in mid-December — before beginning the search for an opening act.
Let’s hope somebody is making a list and some preliminary calls soon. It would be nice to have an opening act bigger than REO Speedwagon.
Posted by Randy Scholfield
Registered?
Commenting on WE Blog now requires you to be a Kansas.com member. Use the links above to register, if you haven't already, or to log in.Contact us
Follow us
Daily Archives
-
Recent Comments
- CapnAmerica on Too many exemptions
- Phantom on Open thread 11/23
- Blaidd_Drwg69 on Too many exemptions
- Heckler on Open thread 11/23
- Phantom on Open thread 11/23
- Phantom on Open thread 11/23
- CapnAmerica on Open thread 11/23
- Phantom on Open thread 11/23
- CapnAmerica on Open thread 11/23
- CapnAmerica on Open thread 11/23
85 Comments
And when exactly will the Arena be named to offset some of the sure-to-be cost overruns?
Bring back some washed-up 70’s band–The Bee Gees maybe.
That’s about our speed . . .
I bet we manage to get the again reunited Van Halen, or Mike Love/Brian Wilson reunited Beach Boys, or a reunited Fleetwook Mac, or a …..whatever, we’ll screw it up and never get Bruce. In the end, my money is on an Elvis revue.
The opening act is very simple.GOODING
This local band will be a star by 2009. If we want to bank on a really cool lasting event….book GOODING now.I do not know GOODING. I just know that they are worthy.
Gooding has been trying to be a star for 15 years now.
Gooding will not be on a level with the Stones, or a similar band on the superstar level between now and then.
Perhaps he could be the opening act on a 4-act bill, but then there are other bands around Wichita who would be far more worthy for the gig than Gooding.
Name idea for the Albino Pachyderm: The “not ready for prime time” Arena.
I’m pretty new to the area. How many people voted for the arena of those eligible to vote for it? Why don’t the county commissioners and their opposing candidates list their contributors on their web pages? Who has the deepest pockets and who is filling them? I would think that the Beagle would list the donors and amounts when they make their endosements.
Jeez. If only our population, generally speaking, were not 900 years old and had something better to do than constantly complain that the city isn’t doing exactly what they want (which typically sounds like what worked 900 years ago, nevermind this is the 21st century), Wichita would be a fantastic place to live.
This city is like a 120 square mile nursery of folks who bitch and moan about one thing or another and can’t even justify their complaints beyond some vague recollection of how life was like back in the good old 1950s.
Wake up guys. Cities all over the country are building downtown arenas with public money. This idiotic argument that private money would build it if it was a good idea has no widespread precedence or even basis in fact. It is your own sad utopian dream, conjured up whilst staring out the window of your nursing home.
The city installs a few concrete drains under the WaterWalk and one guy even claims that it is proof that his outlandish theory that the arena would flood downtown and millions must be spent on an entire new sewer system.
How can any rational, intelligent and professional person survive on these blogs? Or even survive in Wichita? The answer is one can’t. The attitudes of our general population here leaves few options for a person under the age of 30 who does not belong to the NASCAR crowd.
We have 3 years until the arena opens. 3 YEARS. But still folks complain that ground hasn’t been broken (a sign that it will never be built). Folks complain that naming rights haven’t been sold (a sign no one is interested). The dumb newspaper complains that no big names have been announced for an opening act (a sign that no one will play in it?).
The complaining is sickening. Get a life people. There are many more things that are worthy of complaining about–hunger in Africa, war, melting polar ice caps, Paris Hilton’s popularity. If you refuse to recognize the success of other arenas, at least give the one you’re paying for a chance to prove itself.
And stop complaining.
‘07 – aren’t you leaving Wichita so we who stay here get to pay the operating subsidies?
Are we going to have the spectacle of those nay-sayers being fed to the lions as an opening act? Or since it’s a “sports” arena, why not have sport acts to open it?
PS: I’d like to see the Bee Gees. Too bad, one third of it has decided to join Andy.
WAIT A MINUTE !!!!
ARE THE BLACK PEOPLE OF WICHITA INCLUDED IN THIS, THE WAY YOU ALL ARE TALKING DON’T SOUND LIKE TO ME THAT ANY CONCERTS FOR US ARE GOING TO BE SCHEDULED. DO WE GET TO HAVE OUR RAPPERS, R&B GROUPS COME TO TOWN SINCE WE ARE CONTRIBUTING SOME OF OUR HARD EARNED TAX DOLLARS??????????????
Oh Look, it’s a college student that is directing his own life by what he read in a textbook and what an overated professor told him.
Hey Brainchild, enlighten me on how the population of sedgwick county is going to correct the Hunger in Africa, The War on Terror, Ice Caps and over rated Celebs and Politicians. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but that is life. Move to Washington, become an intern, get fondled by a congressman and then move back to Wichita when your testosterone level has subsided and the “commen sense factor” has kicked in.
Back to the subject of this blog; As much desire and right local tax payers have in selecting the “opening act”, this will never become reality. They are going to choose who they choose. In the end, all the commisioners that drove this project will be sitting at the house and it really won’t matter to them whether it was a success or a failure. Eventually, they will realize how much a casino would benefit the economy and in-directly fund the arena. We just happen to have the “Cart in front of the horse” right now.
Capn, I happen to like the BeeGees. *grin*
Jim G, I’ve seen the Beach Boys in concert 4 times. I’d love to make it 5.
Ken, no one voted FOR or AGAINST the arena. We voted on how we would pay for it. The City and County Commissions never asked if we wanted one.
‘07, 900 years old? I’d like to be around when you reach the half-century mark to see if you do a little reminiscing. I’d lay odds you will. Human nature, kid.
F. Anderson, some R&B would be nice. I don’t judge music on the what “color” or race the musicians are.
F. Anderson has it figured out–
we all pay so the Koch’s can get cheap skyboxes for bush-league hockey.
Welfare for the rich.
How about a combination hockey/soccer game. Both of them have worked so well before … combining them might actually make them interesting !
ROLLERBALL!!!!!
Guaranteed – these shows will sell out:1) Arena of Mercy anti-abortion rally.2) Gatekeepers rally3) Fred Phelps & Terry Fox combine their churches and offer free gay-immunization shots to the first 15,000 to show up.4) Double Bill: Wayne Newton and Tom Jones5) Twiggy and Earth Kitt
with twiggy we should have tiny tim
Uh, Ben, that would be a sell out; IIRC, “Tiny Tim” died a while back.
Vaughn … shhhhhhhh ! The crowds won’t even notice he’s dead, and the price is probably really reasonable. Only Elvis has made death a “good career move” !!
Shocker’96, ‘01: yes, I plan to move to Denver sometime after I finish my masters, where I won’t be surrounded by 300,000+ rednecks who jump to conclusions, have narrow world views, and have no factual basis for their opinions. I’m sure I will enjoy the refreshing change of open-minded professionals who take risks, try new things, have pride in what their city has to offer and never settle for second best.
Belcher, maybe I will change my name to “Falcon’00, Shocker’07″ to reflect that I am not a pimplefaced college boy. I’ve spent a few years out in the real world since I earned my bachelors, and it was not a textbook or a professor but instead a terrible personal experience that showed me the keys to success in life are hard work, an open mind, hope for a better future, and never ever rushing to judgment. Yes, stuff happens and that is life. But your attitude and drive to overcome adversity directly determines your success. Please enlighten ME as to how incessantly complaining about our arena, which we have already voted on and approved, will change anything. Seems like a bunch of sour grapes from a bunch of whiney spoiled brats to me. Stop complaining and keep an open mind. It won’t hurt you, take it from a guy who used to think like a caver.
RD, I already reminisce. I remember the Wichita of the 1980s and early 1990s. A wasteland of culture, activity, and investment and about as pretty as my left butt cheek. We were Great Bend on steriods. This city has come a long way since those times. The only thing holding it back from true greatness is a lack of willingness of its people to dream and think big and demand first class facilities. I will not live in a city that values only mediocrity.
I’m not so sure Wichita even values mediocrity Shocker. I too am impressed with how Wichita has grown since I was here in the late 70’s — too bad it hasn’t matured. Still many of the same problems — airport, Wranglers (Pilots back then I think), mediocre media, generally narrow minded thinkers, (note that most of the condo developers downtown are not from here), blinded by their conservative agenda, and history. But I came back because it’s still small, not too badly polluted, and it’s pretty quiet out in the country where I live. I only have to go into the city to enjoy an occassional play and see my shrink to evaluate why I moved back. (that was a joke – albeit bad)
“I will not live in a city that values only mediocrity.”
Nah, you’ll just work for a company that does.
I see ‘07 and the rest of the CSMWFA crowd continue their claim that those of us who question the value of the Arena are somehow anti-progress. WRONG! We just don’t think this Arena is the way to do it.
What difference does it make who they book? Few of us will be able to afford the tickets.
Thing is Jed – they need an opener that will fill the seats. With the community so split on the issue and the fact that it was voted down numerous times before passing narrowly they need something that will indicate it will be successful.
Ben,So, how much are they prepared to lose for a sold-out opener? What a way to get started losing money that we taxpayers will have to forever foot.
Good question. They need to get something that will fill the house at a high enough ticket price to bring in revenues. The Stones concert did quite weel from what I have seen. I know I enjoyed it.
I think they will be under a lot of scrutiny and they know it. They know the voters turned this thing down many times prior to the vote that nerrowly passed. Also that there are those who claim that the one that passed was based on some misrepresentations (such as it would include parking). I know that there have been a number of calls for a ‘confirming’ vote – and those calls have been rebuffed.
I hope this thing works – after all I live here and pay taxes. Unlike ‘07 I will be here and will be paying taxes when this thing starts operating. However, I have very serious doubts that it will.
Of course, they will find a way to blame us if it doesn’t work.
Why is a future opening act question being asked TODAY?
One year before the opening date is better. It could be 6 months before. If I haven’t seen Bruce Springsteen yet, I’m not trying hard enough is obvious. He’s meaningless to me.
The problem, music is changing faster than our Arena process. Who will still be playing in future years.
New people play music all the time, who knows what the hot songs will be, by what artist.
Diddy could bring a group. If Jay-Z is a big executive, him too.Kanye West. All three, why not! Those ego’s won’t get along?
Some people can’t fill a 15,000 seat arena. Theyhave to introduce themselves in small venues to a lot of cities, on their own. A video just doesn’t cut it.
50 Cent, that guy doesn’t impress me. Its a generation thing!
I was interested in the Black Eyed Peas but everytime they had a concert, a review said they didn’t present it good enough on the big stage. Some groups are just made for video’s.
That’s whats lost in bands today. They think one album, they can fill an arena or stadium.
Some guys in t-shirts and jeans, just rappers, the presentation isn’t for everyone. It’s too weak presenting the music. I prefer if multiple singers on stage, some have instruments in their hands.
He rapped nonsense but Hammer put on a show!
Can Janet Jackson still draw? Mariah Carey is touring around the world.
Prince!
The Gap Band still around?
I don’t want to hear any voices say the downtown arena isn’t for black people.
If I could get Stanley Clarke here to play his AT THE MOVIES album, live that would be a awesome experience. Stanley is best bass player in the world.
I like Heatwave and The Spinners. Temptations back in the day. Some group to play these songs would be a fantastic concert:
Groove Line (Heatwave)Boogie Nights (Heatwave)
It’s a ShameO0h-ChildThe Rubberband ManCould It Be I’m falling in LoveI’ll Be AroundWorking My Way Back To You BabeThe Games People PlayThen Came You
(All by The Spinners )
Music that has a huge band! Horns!
Anything by Motown, the Temptations. Anybody with a good voice can sing, how does the band sound and play.
The presentation of music matters.
The Stones presented well no matter if the group isn’t a favorite to some people.
Our Arena is “small” and whoever will play there considers the facility that way.
I hope in the mean time, Cessna Stadium is more used for concerts.We need more concerts where 30,000 people can show up.
aren’t we forgetting our VERY OWN JOE WALSH! Maybe he can get The Eagles for us! ‘nuf said. that’s guaranteed FULL HOUSE!
The Eagles with Eric Clapton should play in Cessna! Soon! Like next spring or summer!
Some bands won’t last until our Arena is open. They can join up or someone in the city, a group of promoters brings them to Wichita together.
Prince and Madonna!
We have to catch up with some bands fast before they croak and retire, stop touring.
Concerts should be outside experiences unless the weather is a problem.
It doesn’t matter what the opening act is. Get who ever you want. They will be playing to a half empty venue.
Did everybody see the DISASTROUS plan for the parking for this boondoggle? It was published in the paper this weekend. S spaces here, 13 there, 20 some somewhere else, scattered over a VAST area. Unbelievable! I was born and raised here. If folks can’t park within 2 blocks or less they aint gonna bother.
Sigh…….what if we build an arena, and no one comes?
Shocker’07: Pardon me, but I thought you pro-arena cheerleaders had pedalled your way out of town to Denver or somewhere west.
I continue to be amazed at your cavalier attitude of spending $250,000,000.47 (1/4 BILLION DOLLARS) of the taxpayers hard earned money for what is essentially a larger ice hockey arena.
As we all know, the election was basically sold to the public by gross exagerations by the county commissioners. Current county commissioners, Winters, Shortino, Unruh, Norton and Birtnet should be ashamed of themselves.
The election, the last in a series, was basically a tie of about 82,000 to 81,000. I now estimate that probably a 150,000 citizens would vote against the arena if given the opportunity.
I guarantee you it will be many years before Sedgwick County voters are again tricked into voting for a tax increase for anything regardless of good purposes.
And remember, NO tenant has agreed to sign a deal to use the arena. I suspect the owners of indoor football, hockey, soccer if any, will build their own arena to fit the size of their audiences because that is how they make their money and profits — not playing in a government owned monolith with no parking and the rumble of passing trains blocking any possible audio.
Shocker 07, somewhere in your litany of complaints is a denial of the City of Wichita spending millions of dollars “off-budget” for an enormous 5 foot by 8 foot reinforced concrete box culvert to carry storm water from the arena for several miles to the Arkansas River. I believe you based your opinion on an experiment with a tin pan and three rocks. Sorry, your “proof” just didn’t fly.
Wichita has a multitude of expensive needs that should take priority over building a WHITE ELEPHANT, ALBATROSS OF A DOWNTOWN ARENA, needs such as:
** Exploration Place,
** Hyatt Hotel,
** Old Cowtown,
** Water Walk development,
** More jails,
** Airplane Tech Facility,
** Lawrence-Dumont Stadium,
** Declining Wichita water supply,
** Indian Center,
** Century II and Exposition Ctr.,
** Railroad overpasses,
** Arts Center and parking lots in Old Town.Shocker 07, I will never forget driving up to Topeka on my own dime on a fridgidly cold winter morning and being passed by the Pro-Arena Greyhound Bus loaded with food and drink with stopovers along the way for sumptious breakfasts and dinners — all at taxpayer expense of course.
I guess when pro-arena people can dig into the taxpayers pockets for the partying of the few, they are not going to let go easily.
Interesting list, Wink. It seems like Wichita is only interested (or capable?) of supporting one thing at a level the city can be proud of: WSU sports.
Odd thing is, I don’t ever remember you complaining about Turgeon’s 1/1000th of a BILLION dollar annual salary. Or the 1/50th of a BILLION dollar cost to renovate Koch Arena. And aren’t those both unmitigated failures???
Sheesh, anything worth doing is going to cost. And the fact that modern arenas cost $200+ million shouldn’t surprise anyone who knows anything about the business.
But I think the real question Wichita needs to answer is, What kind of city do we want to be? Do we want to be comparable to and compete with other cities in the region? Omaha, Des Moines, Little Rock, and OKC? Or are we content with the status quo (or going backwards)?
TR: Since when did the measure of competition become who has the largest arena? Or even have an arena at all? Many studies show arenas have a negative effect on downtowns.
Besides my objection isn’t to having an arena — I was one of the first to suggest an arena be built near Lawrence-Dumont Stadium BY A PRIVATE DEVELOPER. I certainly never anticipated that government would grab this project and give it top priority over all other needs we have here in Wichita.
I have recalled before on this blog sitting in a depression era coffee shop in about 1948 having a bowl of chili with my father at Waterman and Main. From there, the busy downtown Wichita looked like New York City.
I think downtown Wichita could be renewed in such a way to again make it people friendly and a draw to out of town visitors.
But building a giant monstrosity of a rediculous WHITE ELEPHANT downtown arena is exactly opposite of the way to do this. The arena is already chasing major and minor tenants out of downtown, never to return.
Sorry, but that’s a fact.
JWink,
Notice how the County didn’t ask you or others to pay for the Training Center.
Your lucky they asked voters to approve the facility. More are paying for it! Even Topekans who dared shop in Wichita. They could live in Denver and again spent money in the county assisting us to pay for it.
Your using a Democratic process where the winners WON as a negative.
County living individuals having a hard time with the downtown location instead of where the Coliseum is.
To have a great hotel we need a facility where events are held close by. All the things you listed needing improvement downtown will benefit with the Arena close by.
Parking gets in there as a negative argument but no one yet is walking from a distant parking lot to the arena because it hasn’t been finalized yet!
The VIP’s parking close aren’t being served by valet with a champagne glass and box of chocolates offered on a red felt pillow..yet.
Have faith, downtown is a open canvas no matter what obstructs today. This is not a joke investment, core of this city project.
It does need energy of the Arena designers to speak with passion, where the county officials keep offering the politically chosen words.
Until the designers have it all drawn out, I guess they aren’t promoting yet and that’s okay to me.
That part of downtown offered no chance of redevelopment until the Arena was chosen to be placed there.
Everyone who focuses on things needing fixing around Wichita is a positive. This city can’t stay the same as it exists today.
We need County living citizens to imagine more days and evenings spent downtown for entertainment.
JR–If your not in the Arena by choice, enough will be!
I don’t count on seeing Thunder or Arena football. High school tournaments there, sure! Concerts, sure! Shows of some other kind, sure!
Hope they offer champagne and chocolates on a pillow while I’m taking a seat in the cheapest section! At least on opening night!
Hey Wink,
Did u see Fridays paper (i believe) there was an article about the 3 arena districts and all of these massive plans they have?
Included in the “redevelopment plans” are things like narrowing Douglass from Century II to Washington to 3 lanes (2 lanes and a turn lane). Also decreasing lots of parking to install strip malls. Also, reverting all one way streets to two way streets.
Come on! give me a break. can we talk about way too much money and a waste of time.
Merge,
U keep talking about the democratic process. I agree, normally i would tell people to shut up, they lost. But in the case of the arena, we were flat out lied to.
During the last throws of the arena campaign, i did the numbers and presented them to the arena group. I showed where their numbers lacked and how their numbers came up short. No one there had an answer. I reported it to the eagle and news stations. Eagle did an article, stuck it in the back of B section. The news stations didnt even review it.
I say we as tax payers were lied to. So, i say we should get the right to revote.
Do i think that downtown needs to be worked on, yes, do i think it can be revitalized, yes, but i think we should be told the truth.
If we would have known it was going to cost more, if we would have known that VIP’s were going to get all of these nice things, if we knew that there was no plans for roads, drainage and parking, if we would have known that an entire half of the arena would be “box seats”, than i bet like Wink, that the city would widely reject the plan, just like they did many times before.
Tony,
I promote improvements for Wichita and didn’t even read those 3 arena district redevelopment ideas.
Until we build and replace core facilities, there is no reason to imagine the rest today.
I’m not a mall promoter or interested how many shops will be nearby. I’m not going to live downtown so those condo’s don’t impress me. I’m glad old warehouses are becoming housing. When a Dillons opens downtown or Wal-Mart with a grocery, that’s the stamp of approval living downtown for families. I’m surprised at some of those condo prices! Yikes! Space per sq. ft is getting up there for living purposes.
Tony,
We weren’t lied to! The county hasn’t overspent money!
No one has exact figures to build something because construction costs rise. Materials costs, gas and oil for the machines always running. Labor increases.
It has to be built, at least structurally formed, then we can discuss needs for parking garages and parking lots. The facility as its growing will gain corporate partners.
That money will offset what the County is spending. Adding to funds they use.
It’s affordable to this community and voters were correct.
As an outsider to your community these days, I don’t understand how the city and WSU couldn’t have worked together on the Koch arena to make it useful for other programs like concerts and ice events.
“It’s affordable to this community and voters were correct. ”
Than why are we spending almost twice as much per seat than OKC, Little Rock or Omaha spent on thiers?
Also, why are building an arena rather than a convention center, which we do need!
Mr Kia, there is no reason, the city/county just wants their own facility downtown.
KIA,
Koch only seats just over 10,000, people are saying the downtown arena is too small as planned.
Koch can’t be used enough for “city and county” sponsored events, conflicting with WSU sports.
Koch doesn’t have multiple flooring and configuration possibilities.
Tony,
We will get a updated interior of Century II when a casino group buys the Hyatt and Library. It will be a convention/casino show center.
I still say the downtown arena will offer convention space on certain weeks if need be.
Why does anything now cost more than it did years ago. Costs go up! We waited too long when arena’s in neighboring states sprouted up. Is our financing the same? Did other communties have corporate investors at the ready.
Communities in Oklahoma, Nebraska, Kansas City have big sports fans already attending events in groups. Business knows their market in those cities. Business eagerly joined in partnerships with their arenas.
Here is the unknown, the whining don’t participate. Wichita lacks gathering together reasons. They make reasons not to go. Business marketing can’t grasp yet what to promote.
What is business here as a group marketing wants the downtown arena to succeed.
mrage – you don’t want a re-vote because “the people have spoken”? Well, they “spoke” numerouis time voting NO and we kept having re-votes. Why not have one more and see how it turns out. I know why – it would go down! AGAIN!
KIA is correct – we should have followed the recommendations at the time (and they WERE made, this is NOT 20/20 hindsight) and gotten WSU together with the City and County. This should have been done BEFORE Koch was done “Koch only seats just over 10,000, people are saying the downtown arena is too small as planned.
Koch can’t be used enough for “city and county” sponsored events, conflicting with WSU sports.
Koch doesn’t have multiple flooring and configuration possibilities.”
Back when we were recommending a joint project we raised all these issues; hoping to see a good multi-use facility that would serve both WSU and the community at large.
“We will get a updated interior of Century II when a casino group buys the Hyatt and Library. It will be a convention/casino show center.
I still say the downtown arena will offer convention space on certain weeks if need be.”
What inside information to you have about a casino group buying the Hyatt and Library? When will this happen? Or should that have been “IF”?
Yes, they might be able to try to hold a convention on the floor of the sports facility – problem is it is not being built in a manner that will facilitate that.
“If your not in the Arena by choice, enough will be!” We shall see. My bet is NO.
mrage – you don’t want a re-vote because “the people have spoken”? Well, they “spoke” numerouis time voting NO and we kept having re-votes. Why not have one more and see how it turns out. I know why – it would go down! AGAIN!
KIA is correct – we should have followed the recommendations at the time (and they WERE made, this is NOT 20/20 hindsight) and gotten WSU together with the City and County. This should have been done BEFORE Koch was done “Koch only seats just over 10,000, people are saying the downtown arena is too small as planned.
Koch can’t be used enough for “city and county” sponsored events, conflicting with WSU sports.
Koch doesn’t have multiple flooring and configuration possibilities.”
Back when we were recommending a joint project we raised all these issues; hoping to see a good multi-use facility that would serve both WSU and the community at large.
“We will get a updated interior of Century II when a casino group buys the Hyatt and Library. It will be a convention/casino show center.
I still say the downtown arena will offer convention space on certain weeks if need be.”
What inside information to you have about a casino group buying the Hyatt and Library? When will this happen? Or should that have been “IF”?
Yes, they might be able to try to hold a convention on the floor of the sports facility – problem is it is not being built in a manner that will facilitate that.
“If your not in the Arena by choice, enough will be!” We shall see. My bet is NO.
Winky, I am once again amazed at your level of ignorance and the sheer magnitude of your assumptions.
First of all, I was on that bus that passed you on the turnpike. We stopped at the Matfield Green McDonalds and purchased breakfast AT OUR OWN EXPENSE. Lunch was also at our own expense. The bus was paid for from funds from the arena campaign, which if you will remember were collective donations from the PRIVATE sector. Sorry, Winky, no taxpayer money went into this trip as you claim. You are once again WRONG.
And now your storm water story becomes even more ludicrous. You’re like the old man who tries to convince the kid that he used to walk to school uphill both ways in a blinding blizzard every day. You can only stretch the truth until a point when it becomes ridiculous:*The cost of any infrastructure improvements is included in the arena budget, not “off budget” as you claim. Check the arena budget on the vote yea website, it’s still active as of last month. That is, if you’d like to change your MO and actually work with facts.*Since when is the arena “several miles” from the river???? Looks like 7-8 blocks to me (16 blocks is a mile). Oh, and the concrete culverts you speak of have only been installed under the WaterWalk. Hmmm…*Additional sewer capacity will not be needed for storm water, as you claim. I cannot say the same for waste water, but that was never your point to begin with, was it?
So let’s review your track record, Jerry. You were WRONG about the bus trip. You were WRONG about the distance between the river and the arena. You have been WRONG about the storm water system on several points. And that’s just in one post!! Now you see why I never trust anything you say. I will begin to believe the things you post when you start backing up your claims with facts. Until then, you’re just offering assumptions and opinion.
And need I remind you that you once even admitted you never liked arenas, even before the campaign? And because of that you never did any research before, during or after the campaign and the vote? And therefore, YOU VOTED ON THE ARENA WITHOUT ANY KNOWLEDGE OF THE ISSUE? And you continue to beat the drums about something you know absolutely nothing about?
You talk about me and a lack of credibility. Try looking in the mirror for that.
Winky, I am once again amazed at your level of ignorance and the sheer magnitude of your assumptions.
First of all, I was on that bus that passed you on the turnpike. We stopped at the Matfield Green McDonalds and purchased breakfast AT OUR OWN EXPENSE. Lunch was also at our own expense. The bus was paid for from funds from the arena campaign, which if you will remember were collective donations from the PRIVATE sector. Sorry, Winky, no taxpayer money went into this trip as you claim. You are once again WRONG.
And now your storm water story becomes even more ludicrous. You’re like the old man who tries to convince the kid that he used to walk to school uphill both ways in a blinding blizzard every day. You can only stretch the truth until a point when it becomes ridiculous:*The cost of any infrastructure improvements is included in the arena budget, not “off budget” as you claim. Check the arena budget on the vote yea website, it’s still active as of last month. That is, if you’d like to change your MO and actually work with facts.*Since when is the arena “several miles” from the river???? Looks like 7-8 blocks to me (16 blocks is a mile). Oh, and the concrete culverts you speak of have only been installed under the WaterWalk. Hmmm…*Additional sewer capacity will not be needed for storm water, as you claim. I cannot say the same for waste water, but that was never your point to begin with, was it?
So let’s review your track record, Jerry. You were WRONG about the bus trip. You were WRONG about the distance between the river and the arena. You have been WRONG about the storm water system on several points. And that’s just in one post!! Now you see why I never trust anything you say. I will begin to believe the things you post when you start backing up your claims with facts. Until then, you’re just offering assumptions and opinion.
And need I remind you that you once even admitted you never liked arenas, even before the campaign? And because of that you never did any research before, during or after the campaign and the vote? And therefore, YOU VOTED ON THE ARENA WITHOUT ANY KNOWLEDGE OF THE ISSUE? And you continue to beat the drums about something you know absolutely nothing about?
You talk about me and a lack of credibility. Try looking in the mirror for that.
Ben,
>hoping to see a good multi-use facility that would serve both WSU and the community at large.
I was hoping that fact, the minute realizing WSU needs a new stadium to bring back the football program, a certain kind of multi-use facility that would serve both WSU and the community at large. I had the idea before city and county got together on the downtown arena!
I understood we needed to replace half of what the Coliseum could do, the multi-use part would be county sponsored dirt shows, plus WSU on a grass field. Any kind of hardcourt as well.
There does need to be a larger facility creating synergy between WSU and more of the community at large. We can build it!
Because where Koch is, it can’t serve Wichita or the County at large and scheduling betweeen WSU events would be tough.
Some colleges have rules against “professional” teams on campus. The Thunder wouldn’t be able to play there. So forget having a floor with ice capabilities.
>What inside information to you have about a casino group buying the Hyatt and Library? When will this happen? Or should that have been “IF”?
I only have downtown casino evidence at this non page website!http://www.ruffinco.com/wichita_greyhound_park.htm
Phil Ruffin is no longer promoting slots at Greyhound Park!
Next legislators session, why won’t gambling come up again? This time Ruffin could be leading the charge for the right process so Topeka can offer 5 full casino licenses across the state.
Someone else publicly mentioned sale of the Library, Hyatt, and interior of Century II, who that was I can’t remember. The Library group whispered about wanting another larger building elsewhere and now planning it publicly.
That was a couple of years ago.
Casino has to be a $200 Million dollar destination facility says Topeka. Those three buildings together downtown is good buy as property. Probably worth $30 Million combined.
I believe its a lock, Sedgwick County gets a full casino, downtown. Sooner than later says the gambling groups!
With downtown improved, the arena adds seats and events to see. If 8,000 half fill the facility, that’s a large group downtown on a constant basis.
People are fighting the arena parking concerns, they won’t be a concern when the planning is finally done.
I would walk from a Casino to the Library building, to the arena on nice day or evening. C’mon WaterWalk..that effort means a lot.
Multi-use facility, WSU-Wichita, west side of I-135 generally near 9th-21st St area.
WaterWalk? What’s that? The Gander Mountain store?
I understand where the multi-use facility will go, to benefit the Community coming in masses closer to WSU more times a year.
They will be in the stadium more than just for WSU football games. It’s County facility II, but built with investors money. That effort begins after the downtown arena is finished.
Believe in WaterWalk, after the underground dirt situation is fixed. They wasted time and need to hurry!
Belive in waterWalk … gee, isn’t there going to be some kind of big groundbreaking in August?
OOPS! I’s almost November now ….
Believe in LD then! We have to fix Lawrence-Dumont too. Any fixing of downtown that has to be part of it.
That should be a grand looking baseball field. Chairback seats for every fan.
A casino/hotel view in the outfield. The Hyatt, doubtful it keeps that name, will be more shiny, seem more pumped up!
Great vision mrage … but will investors join in?
Have you presented your ideas to the Minnisota investors?
Investors are believers, they find a way to pay for these things. It starts with effort before any dollars are raised and spent. The will to do it, no matter the obstructions and doubts.
Bankers talk with me about the multi use stadium already. I ask questions, they return the call.
State answered my questions about Star Bonds to clear land.
Stadium designers said its doable, regionally!
Our politicans in the County and City are too busy right now.
It’s the City’s responsibility to fix Lawrence Dumont, no matter what next minor league baseball plays there. It reflects Wichita ,not just that team.
What band is going to open Lawrence-Dumont?
This is our path to improve Wichita, the problems identified, let’s fix them. It’s not instant change on the ground, but minds are improved, imagining what this city can truly offer citizens and future visitors.
If they voted for Jesse Ventura as gov in the past would be my first question to them! I would be wary!
I don’t know who potential investors would want to partner. The financials are just figures now without detail. A process has to happen with with governments before offering investors the oppurtunity.
It’s an offer to partner with gov’s and the state. We are going to build a “destination” multi-use stadium!
I’m confused Mrage (I know, big surprise). Are you talking about replacing LD with a football/baseball stadium? Would this be where LD is now or somewhere else downtown?
Falcon,
LD is staying a baseball stadium, right where it is. Needs serious updating. I’m not sad to see the Wranglers leave town.
I’m working right now on a football/event stadium downtown, 8 lane running track for high school sports. Turf field. Publicly can’t say where it will be yet! It will be useful when River Festivals happen.
A multi-use stadium for the return of WSU football, discussions start after the downtown arena is finished with politico’s in a few years. Publicly can’t say where it will be yet, either! Proximity to WSU matters.
Wichita could use some uber-kultur, so why not have the Three Tenors as the headline act? The last thing we need are simian rappers uglying up the place and attracing scum and wiggers to the venue, yuck!
Viva La Revolucion Blanco!!
Shocker’07, downtown arena cheerleader and new Denver resident: Once again I am amazed at your ability to twist and shout about your favorite subject, the proposed $250,000,000.50 DOWNTOWN WHITE ELEPHANT ARENA. Doesn’t it cause you to lose sleep knowing that 150,000 Wichita and Sedgwick County citizens FLAT OUT NOW DON’T WANT THE ARENA?
As far as I know, you are the last of the pro-arena supporters who is not on the arena payroll either directly or indirectly — and I’m not sure about you!
You would have to think like a bank robber to not have qualms about your arena position. Especially when there are so many priorities that need fixin’ here in River City. You sound like the Music Man getting ready to abscond with the kids’ band uniform money.
Speaking of that Grayhound Bus on which you pro-arena people were partying at 6 AM on that frigidly cold winter morning as you passed me on the turnpike near Matfield Green. Since you guys wouldn’t offer me a ride up, I hitched a ride to Topeka. I understand your trip was paid by the $300,000 arena campaign funds which I was told were in turn donated by several Wichita non-profit groups such as Downtown Incorporated and the Wichita Chamber which in turn receive all or much of their funds from taxes.
SO ONCE AGAIN YOU WERE WRONG!
By the way, a mile in urban areas is usually eight (8!) blocks. That’s why the main east-west streets in Wichita are Central (4/5th), 13th, 21st, 29th, 37th, 45th and 53rd.
SO ONCE AGAIN YOU ARE WRONG!
And, yes the tremendously expensive giant 5 foot X 8 foot reinforced concrete box culvert is currently being installed through the Water Walk project ON ITS WAY THROUGH DOWNTOWN WICHITA BUSINESS DISTRICT ALL THE WAY TO THE ARENA SITE — SOME TWO MILES ACCORDING TO MY PEDOMETER. I presume it will extend to Old Town as a freebie to drain that business area.
In fact, I suggest it be named the “Ben Shortino Outfall Storm Sewer Culvert Line.”
SO SHOCKER 07, WRONG AGAIN!
The reason I don’t like sports arenas is that unless they are owned by a college, university or have a major professional sports team contracted for by a long-term lease — they are destined to be a failure and a long-term drain on the taxpayers. Sure, arenas provide an “industry” for a few sports enthusiasts but at the expense of taxpayers-at-large who don’t give a d— about it.
Now a convention center is a horse of a different color and might be of some benefit. But an arena is not a convention center and the Wichita downtown arena would certainly not double effectively as a convention center.
SO, SHOCKER 07, YOU ARE DEAD WRONG AGAIN.
People amaze me who say “Let’s use my brains and your hard work and money” to do various things. These kind of projects usually fail because of lack of incentive to produce a viable project. That’s why so many local government projects that I have aleady enumerated are failures.
When I first arrived in Wichita, I went around to most of the tax-financed museums and similar operations. I found a common excuse — “I don’t want to do anything here because we might have to clean up the mess.” Would Bill Warren take this attitude at his theaters?
SO, SHOCKER 07, YOU MISSED THE TARGET AND CAME UP SHORT AGAIN.
By the way, have you managed to find a job in Denver yet? Did your college friend start his history job in Topeka? I suspect when you begin working, you will develop a whole new conservative perspective on business matters.
JWink,
According to you, they should shut down the Coliseum and stop working on the downtown arena?
Stop the downtown arena because you don’t like the location and fix the Coliseum, that majority of Wichitans location don’t like.
You want less spent on a arena, spartan? Or just as much if again, it was in the Coliseum location.
County shouldn’t have an arena of any kind?
Your arguing isn’t just about the cost, which everyone is sharing. More than your phantom 150,000 people are assisting to pay for the arena in a variety of ways. People are buying big ticket tax items, regardless of the tax increase.
This wasn’t a tax to fix other things in the community. No, we don’t want to add more years to it, adding projects either.
When will this arguing be over? You can complain about parking issues or events attracted to the arena, but there is no stopping this process.
Why want the idea of a new convention center and not believe a casino group has ideas about remodeling inside of Century II? Won’t conventions continue to happen there?
If you want a project, design on paper and place somewhere, a certain kind of convention center, adding a bowling alley with it. Screaming out loud isn’t helping the city recognize the need.
Get Park City gov to buy the Coliseum and turn that location into a convention center\bowling alley. That won’t be donated land by the County at all! No way! Scream at Dee and whoever else follows her in the office. If she wants to grab that land for property tax reasons do it openly!
Park City gets the increased tax from expanded property but they get debt of facilities standing on those grounds too. Greyhound Park, the Coliseum structures.
I bet Phil Ruffin moves or closes the dog track if he gets a full casino license. If he keeps Greyhound Park, already mentioned wanting to stay as county property. He doesn’t trust Park City to raise property taxes quickly.
Remember there no hotel out there and its not decided, a good place for an above quality hotel. Not a motel, a real hotel! Your northern cities to Reno County maybe can’t support a good hotel in that location! No matter what Wild West World is doing.
Convention centers next to a hotel is the right way to do it, right?
The downtown arena is affordable to this community and its a good idea to place it downtown. It will help the other upgrades necessary, downtown. The County seat is downtown Wichita. The heart of Sedgwick County has to beat stronger with improved facilities.
Des Moines hired a private company(Global Spectrum) to manage their new $200 million Events Center. The center includes a 17,000 seat arena and convention facilities.
So what, you say? This is actually a big deal. Their contract says that Global will share in revenues, and ABSORB ANY OPERATING LOSSES for 10 years on the arena.
The first year of operations for the arena were nearly $3 million in the black.
If Wichita can swing a deal like that, will everyone quit complaining already?
That would definitely help. I would certainly like to see a capitalist put his money on the table.
Ben, Sedgwick County is currently working to secure a private management company like Global Spectrum to run our arena. Who knows if the the deal will be exactly like the one for Wells Fargo, but we would be wise to withold judgment and exercise patience until we know the specifics behind any deal. Without a doubt, you are one of the most intelligent of the anti-arena crowd. I appreciate the fact you leave the door open for the arena to succeed. Maybe you could just be more patient and let this very complex and time-consuming process run its course? After all, we are only two years into a 5 year process to just open the doors of the arena.
Jerry, now I know you aren’t serious and you’re just playing with me. You had me going for a little while, I’ll admit it. First of all, I’m still in Wichita–I won’t leave until I finish my program next year. Keith is still in Wichita as well–he’ll be leaving for Topeka in December.
I don’t lose any sleep because you cannot prove that 150,000 people are now against the arena. This is entirely conjecture and you know that. No one that I know has changed their mind about the arena since the day they cast their ballot.
You make me laugh. There were 800 vote yea volunteers and you claim that 799 of them are now on Sedgwick County’s payroll? What a rediculous claim, it doesn’t even make sense. Did you not take your meds this morning, Jerry?
Wichita streets are organized so that 8 blocks equal a mile NORTH/SOUTH and 16 blocks equal a mile EAST/WEST. Hence 13th, 21st, 29th, etc north and south and 119th, 135th, 151st, etc east and west. The arena is EAST of the river. Do the math. About half a mile. Again, you were incorrect.
I will concede the storm water drain to you if you can prove: a) this is an off-budget arena item, b)the drain will be extended to the arena site. But I won’t hold my breath due to your track record of obtaining facts or proof.
I don’t receive any benefit from a convention. Why is a convention center a “horse of another color”? If any sports arena is a drain, please justify our friend from Des Moines who pointed out that Wells Fargo generates a surplus? And it’s well understood you are a huge Wranglers/baseball supporter. Please justify your support of sports stadiums but not sports arenas.
I fail to see how your rambling about Bill Warren or whatever has anything to do with our discussion. Please enlighten me.
Jerry, I have worked before–in the real world with a real job. I have on the most part already formulated my perspective on business matters from six years of real-world business and management experience. Conservatism does not result from experience in business–it is a result of living in the midwest. We are conservatives by nature. That isn’t a bad thing, but one must temper this with an open mind and the willingness to take risks and try new things. Success in business is not the result of conservatism alone, it is a culmination of many factors including risk management, leadership, luck, hard work, persistence and education.
Some of those factors have been lost by a city that prides itself on an “entreprenuerial spirit.”
The storm drains are being implanted all the way eastward to the Arena site. The work has been delayed or it would have been past Market bu now. If it were only Communist WaterWalk why would they have had to dig under Main?
Patience. I get told that all the time. A capitalist groundbreaking at waterWalk by August – OOPS! “Be patient, it will happen” Naming the Arena. “Be patient, it will happen”
I agree with jerry that a re-vote would defeat it. I know many people who voted yes but who would now vote no. The whole thing is seeming more and more half-baked every day. The fact that they have not dealt realistically with transportation tells me they have not thought it out. The turn lanes they claimed they did not know they would need. I know for a fact that they were fully informed of their need long before the vote – they pooh-poohed it. Just like Bush with the warnings about Iraq.
Excuse my cynicism ‘07; I have been dealing with these City and County officials far too long to have any faith in them. From flooding on the Cowskin that surprised them after they had been repeatedly warned to the Ice Rink to the Cowtown troubles to the Arena traffic surprises. And now the surprise about contaminated soil – they have known about that for years!
Fundamentally I believe that a successful arena could have been put together. Unfortunately I also believe these guys have FUBARed this thing.
mrage, this is a serious question:
What type of mind-altering drugs are you taking while you post?
One thing I haven’t really seen addressed, whether here or by our illustrious City and County “leaders” is how the somewhat geographically inconvenient location of the work release center will be handled. Once upon a time, the residents were safely inside before the typical start time for an evening event at the arena; but, as I understand it, there are folks coming and going at all hours, as they are no longer limited to first shift employment.
Given that there are a few folks residing there who might be tempted to “back slide” by selling a few drugs, trying to steal a purse, etc., and with folks walking to arena events from the wonderfully available parking, I wonder how long it will be before the inevitable happens? IIRC, the estimated cost of relocation of this facility was in excess of $6 million, money the State doesn’t plan to spend. (Remember, folks, this is the Kansas DOC Work Release facility, not Sedgwick County’s.) It would be instructive to hear how the cost of providing extra security or whatever other steps deemed needed to ensure the safety of the patrons of the arena is planned to be handled.
Shocker 07, I don’t have time to reply to your uninformed comments but will later today or tomorrow. Again you are wrong on most of your thoughts, probably due to lack of experience in the working world. But you will get there eventually.
But repeat after me, a mile is a mile is a mile, regardless of how many blocks are in it.
I don’t have all the statistics because the hired guns who are spending millions of taxpayers dollars aren’t cooperative in sharing the information with me.
You “insiders” probably can get the information but then you spin and dance with it.
My point about Bill Warren is that his theaters must produce enough income to cover the loan payments and expenses of staff, heating, airconditioning, operations, advertising, films, etc — things that you pro-arena people are blithly charging off to the Sedgwick County taxpayers.
I suggest you read FOUNTAINHEAD by Ayn Rand sometime soon now that you are nearing the end of your school years. Are you going to be a HOWARD ROARK or ELLSWORTH TOOHEY? Wichita already has to many TOOHEYS.
Jerry, in Wichita, there are eight blocks to a mile north/south and 16 blocks to a mile east/west. A city block in Wichita is not square, it is rectangular in shape–taller than it is wide. Look it up. It’s as easy as looking at a map. Please explain how major arterials laid out in one mile intervals are separated by 16 blocks east and west and 8 blocks north and south. This is probably the dumbest thing we could argue about but it is so easy to verify I have to keep you honest on this one.
Your Bill Warren analogy is factual to the extent movie theaters and arenas are similar. But considering movie theaters are built to generate profits and arenas are not, you can’t compare the two. I have been trying to tell you for two years that privately financed arenas are incredibly rare due to the fact they are not profit centers. I know of only two privately financed arenas in the entire US. Virtually EVERY OTHER ARENA BUILT IS FINANCED BY TAX MONEY. The fact that arenas do not make money is no reason why we should not have one. Should we not have Riverside Park because it doesn’t make money? OR HOW ABOUT YOUR BELOVED LAWRENCE DUMONT STADIUM!! God I’m glad the Wranglers left, Winky, they were such a drain on taxpayer money. Now maybe we can bulldoze LD and entice a developer to build a glittering international bowling center or a state-of-the-art Bingo Emporium!!! Studies have shown that stadiums and the bush league baseball teams that play in them do nothing to contribute to a city’s quality of life and actually detract from the economy.
Now you know I’m just playing with you, but I turn the tables to make a point. You can’t be in love with one minor league franchise and facility and be rabidly against another when the only difference is a roof. Both LD and the arena serve the same function, do not exist to generate profits, and were financed by public funds.
Wink writes:”My point about Bill Warren is that his theaters must produce enough income to cover the loan payments and expenses of staff, heating, airconditioning, operations, advertising, films, etc — things that you pro-arena people are blithly charging off to the Sedgwick County taxpayers.”
Wink: See the above posts about Global Spectrum. They’re a private company, based out of Philadelphia, that manages arena and convention facilities around the country. They have contracts with other facilities that say they will cover operating losses, or take a percentage of profits in the event of a gain.
There are other companies besides Global that do essentially the same thing. I’d say everyone should encourage city and county leaders to pursue private management and include language in their contracts that will shield taxpayers from losses for at least several years.
Ben, some random citizen telling them they need turn lanes does not constitute “fully informed.” Fully informed means a professional traffic engineer or a commissioned study recommending that the action be taken.
Did you know OKC’s arena was not named the Ford Center until just a few months before it opened? They had years to name it as well. Des Moines also spent a lot of time searching for sponsorship until Wells Fargo stepped to the plate. We must realize around here that the uber-quick naming of the Sprint Center is the exception to the rule.
I’ll agree Ben that delays are frustrating and on the most part unacceptable. But we also must accept reality in that stuff happens. The delays with the WaterWalk were generally out of the hands of the developers–from city mishandling of the star bond/TIF financing to the arena site debate to street and utility construction delays. You cannot ask someone to be a miracle worker.
‘07 – (a) we also had outside traffic engineers tell them that. We were right, they were wrong. Perhaps the COUNTY should have had some competant engineers look at it – they didn’t.
As for WaterWalk – I am faulting all involved. In much less time I have seen Waterfront develop.
I could add that a licensed geologist warned them about the contaminated dirt. That is manageable but it is inexcusable for them to claim ignorance.
I am a bit more than just some ‘random person’; especially when I have been proved right.
I am not asking anyone to be a miracle worker – just to show basic competance.
‘07 – on another thread you complain about what you call JWink’s “terrorism” against your arena. I would submit that both he and I are powerless to damage that arena; the promoters of it are doing a fine job of that themselves. The more “surprises” we have the less credibility they have. It is past time for this bunch of “not ready for prime time” players to show that they can manage these projects successfully.
An analogy: I am a proponant of nuclear power. Many pro-nuke people complained about jane Fonda and her silly movie years ago. I submit that Three Mile Island and Chernobyl (and mammoth cost over-runs) did more to damage the nuclear power industry than Fonda ever could. Similar thing here – all this confusion and false starts in WaterWalk and Arena do more to undermine it than JWink, Peterjohn, me, or anyone else possibly could.
Ben, I agree with the basis of your argument. Incompetence is a much more potent enemy than criticism. But there are quite a few things with the arena project that are being blown out of proportion. People seem to expect perfection–maybe that isn’t a Wichita thing, but when a bump in the road comes along, we sure turn that molehill into a mountain. And some things that aren’t even problems–like the naming rights–are twisted to the point they become problems. The fact is, our arena’s lack of a name at this point in its development is not unusual at all and is certainly no indication of incompetence or mishandling.
Bear in mind the arena project is the largest single public investment project EVER undertaken by local government. Please allow these guys a learning curve and allow for small mistakes and mishaps. That doesn’t mean we can’t be frustrasted or annoyed, but they do deserve to be cut some slack. Complex projects like this are bound to have glitches–that’s reality.
The Waterfront by the way, is a MUCH less complex development than the WaterWalk. The Waterfront was once a field, for God’s sakes. Put up some buildings, install a fountain and there’s the Waterfront. I have nothing against the Waterfront, but comparing the two is like comparing a paper airplane to the Space Shuttle.
The simple truth is our cynical media and populace create an environment that makes projects like these much more difficult to manage. How would you like your boss constantly looking over your shoulder at work everyday, pointing out every single mistake you make, ridiculing you and calling you incompetent because you made a few mistakes on a job you’ve never performed before??
Actually, the fact that Waterfront was a field could in many ways make it more difficult. Utilities have to be gotten to the site. At WaterWalk all of that was already in place. As for environmental issues at WaterWalk that is what Brownsfields is all about. We know how to deal with that; it is NOT difficult. (Assuming, of course, the City got decent competant advice).
When I am doing a job I have never done before I seek out advice. These guys did not. If they had we would not now be seeing all these “surprises”.
I think I have every right to demand competance from my employees. I am not seeing that here.
An old friend in Chicago once told me I was right: “cynicism is a learned response”. I am learning it from observing our “leaders” (sic)
Shocker 07: Good name because I’m continuously shocked by your crass attitude of charging the taxpayers $250,000,000.35 for your personal interest in the DOWNTOWN ICE HOCKEY WHITE ELEPHANT ALBATROSS ARENA.
Of course, I’m also shocked at your continued characterization of the Sedgwick County taxpayers as “300,000 rednecks…..” Also that you anticipate a “refreshing change” when you soon move to Denver. Shocker 07, these are the same people from whom you and the arena hired guns and county commissioners plan to take the$250,000,000.34 to “assist citizens with their recreational needs.”
I do enjoy attending Wrangler’s baseball games at Lawrence-Dumont Stadium on warm summer evenings. I usually buy 40 or 50 tickets to these games each summer.
And I would support developing soccer in Wichita because it is played by high school teams and is said to be the World’s most popular sport.
I predict that no long-term viable leases will be signed for the arena because that would take away the incentives for a private sports team to make money playing in their own facility. I predict that locally owned sports teams will eventually build their own sports arena in the Park City area.
So the SUPER-EXPENSIVE proposed downtown arena is being built for NO PURPOSE!!
Shocker O7, I suggest you demonstrate your “tin pan and three rocks” system of designing storm water drainage structures to the American Society of Civil Engineers. I’m sure they would receive a lot of mirth at your stammering expense!
I recall some eight years ago when I worked as a salesman for Feist after arriving here in Wichita from K.C. I called on several thousand companies, many located in downtown Wichita. Now, as I walk around downtown, I recall with great sadness at the high rate of vacancies now in downtown buildings. Most are empty above the first floor. Yes, I know some of this space is being turned into loft-apartments but the jury is still out on this effort.
ANYWAY, THE BOTTOM-LINE HERE IS THE COUNTY COMMISSIONERS NEED TO LET THE VOTERS VOTE AGAIN TO FIND OUT THE CURRENT ATTITUDE OF THE VOTERS. I PREDICT 90% OF OUR CITIZENS WOULD VOTE AGAINST THE ARENA THIS GO-AROUND.
WHY IS THIS SO SCARY TO YOU PRO-ARENA BOYS?
Shocker 07: By the way, I heard your pro-arena supporters stopped for a taxpayer financed sumptious feast when you prepared to leave Topeka on that Greyhound Bus that frigid cold night. I had a cold hamburger at my own expense at one of those McDonald’s along the turnpike. I should have detoured over to Cottonwood Falls for a better meal that evening.
Speaking of your vaunted 800 arena volunteers, I was told that within the first 20 minutes of knocking on doors, so many doors were slammed in their faces, they retired to the River’s Edge bar for a few beers and to decide what to do next.
JWink!
>I predict that locally owned sports teams will eventually build their own sports arena in the Park City area.
What?
Who? Name the sport!
Where in Park City will that happen?
No one is afraid of a revote, because its not going to happen.
Ben,
I haven’t seen an open field yet that was difficult to build a development. Downtown is a vastly different location with existing buildings to destroy, utilities ancient underground. One way streets. In a field no street exists that has a traffic pattern.
This is bordering on whining without basis. Shocker is correct, the County has maintained the Coliseum all these years, not the mavericks of sports arena construction heads at all.
I don’t want the County talking about arena concerns anymore, where is HOK’s mouthpiece. It’s their duty to build the arena first before any management company deals with future events in the arena.
The complaint about a future opening band is stupid today.
County heads are administrators and no one has failed their arena jobs yet.
No construction is ever perfect in planning. Flexibility as projects flow on, has to be there. Costs aren’t finite, they adjust. The unknown is real.
The passion to succeed through all complaining and obstruction is real too. I believe many in the County and City, HOK builders and construction partners, have the same goal on the downtown arena project. It will be nice and accessible.
Enough people will attend events.
Mrage: Most of the pro-arena people who are busy spending the hard-earned taxes of Sedgwick County citizens, HOK, hired guns, present county commissioners, will be long gone with sacks full of tax money by the time the arena opens. The Arena is a really bad deal for all citizens and taxpayers. It will destroy any chance to do something interesting with downtown Wichita. For the life of me, I don’t understand why the EAGLE continues to support it — will the White Elephant arena buy a subscription?
JWink, I have a crass attitude because of the win-at-all-costs attitude of arena opponents as first demonstrated by the KTN. Peterjohn resorted first to rediculous claims, like superimposing the layout of the Coliseum (including parking lots) on downtown to show how much land would be taken up by the arena. When that didn’t work he resorted to outright lies. Such tactics continue to this day as demonstrated by your rediculous claims, like the arena is two miles from the river.
Speaking or rediculous claims, you “predict” a private arena will be built in Park City??? Excuse me for dismissing your prediction in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
Here’s how much you don’t know about arenas and the local sports situation:
*The Thunder provided resources to the Vote Yea campaign. They have been staunch supporters of the effort, and Thunder players even helped us wave “Vote Yea” signs along Kellogg. They have no plans or intentions of building their own arena.
*Arenas typically do not make money. Even “modest” ones. You say no one will sign a lease in the DT arena because it “would take away the incentives for a private sports team to make money playing in their own facility.” WHAT INCENTIVE?? ARENAS DON’T MAKE MONEY!! Why didn’t your precious Wranglers build their own stadium, either here or in Springdale? (Clue, for stadium profitability, see arena.)
*”Locally owned” sports teams? What locally owned sports teams? The Thunder is owned by a group out of Chicago. The Aviators were owned by that crook from Topeka.
Jerry, you make it sound like 8 years ago downtown was bustling. Newsflash: it wasn’t. Those buildings were vacant eight years ago.
Again, you “predict” 90% of voters would vote against the arena. You seem to predict everything, yet you cannot simply point to any facts that back up your predictions. I haven’t seen a fact in your posts since the Nixon Administration, JWink. Why is that?
I stand by what you call my “three rocks and a pan” analogy. It was the only way I could explain to you such a complex notion as a building does not create more rain.
By the way, I’m still waiting for the proof that the culverts will be extended to the arena site AND that this expense is not covered under the arena budget.
And I’m still waiting for the explanation on how it’s two miles from the river to the arena.
Don’t worry, I’ll remind you incessantly about these so you won’t forget.
Ben, in no way would building a development in a former field in suburban Kansas be more difficult than a development in the heart of major metropolitan area’s downtown. Sure, no utilities in the field, but then one has a clean slate with which to start.
WaterWalk developers had to deal with acquisition of previously subdivided land; demolition of existing properties, some of which were erroneously labeled as “historic”; as Mrage says ancient utilities which must be removed, relocated or replaced; innovative financing techniques such as TIF or Star bonds; the increased risk due to locating in a redeveloping downtown as opposed to upscale suburbs; environmental damage as we have seen; and worst of all negative publicity and unduly harsh public opinion.
Sorry, Waterfront developers had it easy. Any developer could build something like it, and they do it all the time (Bradley Fair, New Market, Corporate Hills, Brittany Center, etc). WaterWalk is more unique, especially to Wichita.
You’re absolutely correct, you have every right to demand competence from your employees. But it’s not realistic to demand perfection from them. My point was that nitpicking, nagging, and micromanagement actually causes employee performance and productivity to decrease (no, this was not in one of my textbooks. This is experience from the real world). How can you blame WaterWalk developers for the delay during the arena site selection? Or losing Bass Pro because the city bungled the financing?
“Cynicism is a learned response”…by those who refuse to acknowledge the imperfection of the world or the humanity of those in it.
‘07 – Brownsfields development issues have been well worked out across the country. It has become very popular with developers since they get assistence from EPA etc in dealing with the issues they find in downtown areas.
As for the problems the WW developers had waiting for the Arena site selection; THESE PEOPLE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE WORKING TOGETHER!
And I am not “nit-picking” in my criticism; it is far more basic than that. The City/County people have simply failed to demonstrate basic competance in their handling of these projects.
I am not looking for perfection, simply basic competance.
Shocker’07, Are you and Mrage college buddies? You both seem to support the arena but separate on other issues. Of course, I hope to win you both over to see the folly in spending $250,000,000.99 of the taxpayers hard-earned money for the proposed WHITE ELEPHANT ALBATROSS DOWNTOWN ARENA.
What’s its purpose? No long-term viable leases have been signed and probably none will be. Frankly, a sports team could bankrupt out to cancel a long-term lease. Plus any ice hockey organization with a real following will want to develop its own location to anchor a multi-sports park with softball and baseball diamonds, soccer (the world’s most popular sport), etc.
I’m sorry but a single sport arena is dead meat in today’s sports world.
I have too many projects to stop and make a study of ice hockey arenas around the country. I suspect the financing is different with most and rarely paid 100% by the poor taxpayers as is being done in Wichita — too the everlasting shame of the current county commissioners, city councilmen and legislators. No wonder, Kansas has the questionable reputation of having more government employees per 1,000 than any other state in U.S.
For example, I’m told Des Moines pays for its arena from gambling casino income. I don’t know, I haven’t been there.
Regarding your mystic “tin pan and three rocks” system to prove a storm sewer is not needed for the arena. I suppose you deny that the huge 5 foot by 8 foot reinforced concrete storm water tunnel — with the huge words, “arena,” painted on each segment — is merely a figment of our imagination. Or perhaps it will provide a walking pathway from the arena to the downtown Hyatt including a short swim from the outfall. Since you apparently have an “in” with the arena “hired guns,” could you obtain a set of construction plans and the estimated cost and the source of the dollars for this storm sewer. Remember it wouldn’t have been needed if the arena site was on the Arkansas River.
Remember a mile is a mile is a mile. Historically, in Wichita, east-west streets were numbered eight to a mile and north-south streets were named streets such as Seneca, Main Street, Broadway, etc. Streets crossing the Arkansas River and, indeed, crossing from one plat to another didn’t always match up. I suppose sometime in more recent years, perhaps in the 1940’s, some street names were adjusted and a 16 “blocks” to a mile was adopted going east and west out away from the center of Wichita.
In my professional experience, I once renumbered some houses and streets — to solve a problem with feuding neighbors with the same street numbers.
Regarding downtown Wichita, I was a salesman in mid-1990’s covering downtown Wichita. Although downtown was already declining then — it was still much better than now, in 2006. Some examples I can remember … the Bidding Building still had tenants on most of its floors. Remember the always smiling barber on the ground floor — the glass windows now covered with grafetti. The Bank IV building still had a fully operating bank and many tenants with the busy cafeteria and Senator Dole’s office on the lower floor. The “Feist building” on 100 block of south Main was full with perhaps 10 large/small tenants — a busy building near the downtown library. I’m trying to remember if Macy’s was still operating in 1995-6? I recall participating in a “walking tour” of historical downtown buildings, a film of which is in the downtown library. Incidentally I own a 8 mm film of downtown Wichita’s Christmas windows taken in about1958 — that must have been the peak of downtown Wichita. WIBA might show it at a December luncheon.
The reason I don’t like the downtown Wichita arena is that it will sop up money from the Wichita economy long after it is finished. There will be tremendous operating expenses to keep the building operating even when empty which will be 95% of the time.
A new larger “convention center” built near the Arkansas River to draw family-oriented conventions, perhaps the midwestern convention of Christian Churches, national bowling conventions which last a month, etc. would have been a lot better.
Got to go. Shocker 07, let me know what other issues you and your pro-arena supporters want to discuss.
And hold your ears at the arena everytime a train passes by.
“Plus any ice hockey organization with a real following will want to develop its own location to anchor a multi-sports park with softball and baseball diamonds, soccer (the world’s most popular sport), etc.” If this is such a great idea, JWink, why hasn’t this been done anywhere else? No CHL or AHL team in the country owns its arena. That’s a loud testament to the fact your point of view is incorrect. You also seem to be ignoring the fact that arenas don’t make money–which really confuses me because that should be one of your strongest arguments against our arena. A “profitable arena” is an oxymoron, like “jumbo shrimp”, “freezer burn” or “military intelligence.”
How is a single sport arena “dead meat”? Please refer to facts that show arenas hosting only one sports team are “dead meat.” Besides, as it stands now, 3 YEARS before the arena opens, it appears to be a single sport arena. However, there is still plenty of time to court an AFL, MISL, or NBADL team.
You “suspect the financing is different with most and rarely paid 100% by the poor taxpayers as is being done in Wichita.” Well, your suspicions are incorrect. Our arena, like most others, will have a large percentage of its operating costs offset by the sale of naming rights, with construction costs being covered by tax money. You sure like assuming things, don’t you. If you are too busy to research arenas that is fine and completely understandable, but please refrain from championing a cause (and voting!!) against something you don’t really understand. That’s classic irresponsibility!
Yes, I noticed the culverts you referred to. I also am well aware of the age of the infrastructure downtown. I also am well aware of the fact these culverts have been placed under the WaterWalk. There are many possible explanations for these culverts: replacing of current infrastructure due to age or condition, rerouting of storm water due to the concentration of flow from the arena site, an already planned change to the current infrastructure unrelated to the arena for which the catalyst was the arena itself, etc. What is not wise is to assume that these culverts were installed to keep the arena from “flooding downtown” and that they are off-budget expenses. On the contrary, the arena budget allows for several million dollars of infrastructure improvements. I am still waiting for you to provide proof that these culverts will be extended all the way to the arena site AND that it is an off budget expense. Don’t worry, I’ll remind you again.
JWink, I am well aware that a mile is a mile. That’s not the issue here. We are in disagreement over whether a block is a block. If you will just examine a map of Wichita, you will notice that a block is twice as “tall” as it is “wide.” This is true especially in older areas of town. Yes, n-s streets are named, but they still have block numbers as evidenced by the green street signs. On a drive west sometime notice the pattern: Seneca starts the 1100 block, Meridian the 2500 block, West 4000, Hoover 5600, Ridge 7200, Tyler 8800, Maize 10400, 119th 10200, 135th 13600. Similarly, drive east and you will see Hydraulic 1600, Hillside 3200, Oliver 4800, Woodlawn 6400, Rock 8000, Webb 9600, Greenwich 11200, 127th 12800. Seneca is irregularly numbered due to the river. You need not to have lived here 900 years to know this, you just need to be observant. Check a map Winky. In Wichita, one mile is 8 blocks n-s and 16 blocks e-w. The arena is still 1/2 mile from the river. This fact is also easily evidenced by just checking a map, we don’t need to have this insane debate over block length. Check a map, Winky.
No, Macy’s was long gone by 1995-96. I don’t think it had even been renovated into the state office building by then, either. The Alice Hotel was still standing–barely. Old Town was still in its infancy, so it still resembled a tattered old warehouse district instead of the vibrant office and entertainment area it is today. Winos still frequented Naftzger park. The Hyatt was not yet under construction. The old Holiday Inn had not yet been renovated into apartments and sat empty and neglected. The Douglas beautification project had not been started. Yeah, sounds like a great place Winky, you’re right. I wish we could go back to those days when no one lived downtown, it was devoid of art and activity, and there were bums everywhere–even though it actually had an office occupancy rate similar to today.
“The reason I don’t like the downtown Wichita arena is that it will sop up money from the Wichita economy long after it is finished. There will be tremendous operating expenses…” Winky, please read previous posts regarding a private management company that could run our arena. Also, please review my statements regarding naming rights, which typically go to offset operating expenses.
You know, if you actually paid attention and didn’t let your blind assumptions control your opinions, you might have something worthy to post.