Rush Limbaugh rightly apologized for accusing Michael J. Fox of “exaggerating the effects” of his Parkinson’s disease in the political ads he’s done for Missouri Democratic Senate candidate Claire McCaskill and others related to his advocacy of federal funding for stem-cell research. “Either he didn’t take his medication or he’s acting, one of the two,” Limbaugh said Monday of Fox’s visible symptoms of the disease. But the comment was “jaw-dropping,” as McCaskill said. “Only in politics would somebody find a way to criticize what Michael J. Fox has done.”
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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457 Comments
Michael J. Fox has admitted that he went off his meds to testify before congress. He obviously went off his meds (or was acting) when he taped the add.
Everything about his campaign adds is a lie. From mischaracterizing Talent’s position on stem-cell research to his phoney little “Parkingson’s Disease dance’. All a lie.
Hank
Hank you are just as despicable as Rush Limbuagh. Why am I not surprised?
“Everything about his capaign ads is a lie”. Got any proof of that? Or did you just retrieve it from Rush’s ass?
Is “jaw-dropping” the new quote of the week that polls well?Fox has said he stops taking meds (when it suits his purpose?)
Maybe Rush needs to stop taking HIS “meds”!
hotlick, as someone whos family member has parkinsons, I can say your an idiot. Not only is what you just said a total lie. But the medication in fact causes the extreme shaking. If he was actually off the meds you wouldn’t have understood him well. Learn about parkinsons before you speak. And just a note, Rush appoligized after learning how parkinsons works. Go back to eating your donuts and living on welfar.
Can you spell, D-E-S-P-E-R-A-T-I-O-N?
Good. I knew you could do it.
Rush didn’t “appoligized after learning how parkinsons works” – he apologized after he realized the firestorm he ignited would burn him too.
Your probably correct Ben Huie. I’m sure Rush didn’t say he was sorry because he really was. I just pointed that out because he admitted that it wasn’t true, yet people like hotlick still believe. lol They defend the Republicans even though the GOP mocks them behind their backs. It’s sad. I pitty them. It’s like the unpopular kids in Highschool looking in admiration at the popular kids. They would do whatever the popular kids told them to yet, they never fit in. lol
Holding Rush accountable for his lies would be a full-time job. Who would want to do such a miserable task?
Making fun of people on welfare is not very nice. Last I looked, it was your party who has the welfare folks, not mine.
It’s okay hotlick. I know you can’t help it. Underachievers don’t like looking at their lives. :)
Very good point Ben. Rush does not have much room to talk about meds.
Whether Michael Fox was on or off his meds is not really relevant. Either way, he was bringing his condition to the public and asking for help.There is no dishonesty in that at all.
I suppose if a paralyzed person made an ad using their wheelchair Rush, Hank and hotlick would have a problem with that too.
I wish Fox would hit back. So far he has had a lot of class regarding the sewer dwelling Rush Limbaugh.
Rush put his foot in his mouth deep this time. I hope he chokes to death on it.
Scientists are making great strides that will benefit all mankind — even those full of hate like Rush, Hank Price and hotlick.
Do you mean hate like:”idiots, Rush’s ass, eating donuts and living on welfare, underachievers,sewer dwelling, hope he chokes”? It’s you people. Don’t be hatin’
Hank Price,
Now that you’ve been corrected about the proper medical interpretation of Michael J. Fox’s symptoms, do you want to take back your ignorant, offensive remarks?
As for hotlick, I won’t bother. Completely useless. A skid-mark, even.
That’s okay hotlick, You tell yourself whatever you need to so you can feel better about yourself. :)
cf-That sounds like hatin’
asslick,
You must be new here; CF is all about the hatin’.
I love reading comments like these… it reminds me that there’s a reason our government is a useless conglomeration of morons:
It’s merely a reflection of the rest of our country.
90% of you, liberal and “conservative,” (though most of you seem to have forgotten what that word even means) Rush-haters and Rush-lovers, sound like you fell off the education train before it reached sophomore junction.
We as a people deserve the morons that we get in office, because we don’t have the pride, self-respect, or respect for our system of government to actually learn enough to make informed decisions on anything.
So keep bickering, imbeciles. And then when November comes along, walk into the voting booth without ever taking the time to actually try to understand someone with a different point of view. Just keep watching Fox or CNN or reading the National Review or the Nation, and keep telling yourself that you know what’s going on. Really. Do it. Just look at how well its worked for the last ten years or so.
Can’t anybody see past the end of their nose?
I can appreciate that.
laughing-I can’t see past my nose. My eyes are too fat. I haven’t seen my feet in years. When’s my guvment check coming?
Rush is a well known jackass, drug addled typical Rethuglican hypocrite, ala Mark Foley — a man who rails against his own foibles.
Rush should be in jail by now. But being a spokeman for fascists, election stealers and racists has its benefits.
Any body bothered to check Rush’s meds lately?As I recall it was HE who admitted to inappropriate drug use.
laughing,
When I hear someone calling for ‘civility,’ I wonder about the fantasyland inhabited by the caller.
America is a hegemonic, one-party state. The prevailing media sentiment reflects this hegemony, and Rush Limbaugh emblematizes it. Both ends of the political spectrum are not equally implicated. Not even close. So to impute responsibilty for America’s political dysfunction, Congressional paralysis, and Executive overreach to Democrats as well as Republicans is, frankly, either naive or dishonest.
These are asymmetrical times, laughing. If power were equally distributed, blame would be, too.
I don’t read “The Nation,” by the way.
I think everyone missed the point by getting sidetracked. I feel the add was poor taste. Fox has every right to feel the way he does but using a persons disablity to get elected is low. (This is not just limited to Dems.) I feel everyone needs to read the fine lines in the proposed bill. I have and it has too many loop holes. Its like saying the Lotto is for schools but in reality only a small percentage is. After you read what is proposed, you will understand why some are for or against it. I must say though Shame on Rush for the comment. I think it was poor wording
I don’t like hearing/reading about how you cannot criticise someone cause they are special. You can’t doubt the widows cause their widows. You can’t oppose the Dixie Chicks cause their famous. You cannot be critical of Fox because he is sick.
Once you step into politics and use/abuse what made you ’special’ you shouldn’t be surprised that you get criticised.
Rush tears apart the ACLU for being a Communist liberal organization but he uses them to defend his right not to disclose his medical records in a criminal charge against him for illegal purchase of large quantities of Oxycontin on which he is addicted.
He criticizes Michael J. Fox for acting or intentionally being off of his medication without even knowing the facts. The fact is, is that some of Mr. Fox’s medications causes those spasm reactions.
Is he going to accuse the late Christopher Reeves for pretending to be paralyzed in a wheelchair when he spoke in favor of stem cell research?
Mr. Reeves displayed his hardship just as Mr. Fox did.
Maybe Rush just needs to take a few Oxycontin and chill out.
The NeoCons are pretty defensive knowing that their reign is just about over and an absolute failure.
I am not sure I understand all of this. Mr. Fox has Parkinson – which is only controlled (albeit with some limits) by the use of medication. Medication that has multiple side effects – medication that would be reduced via success in stem cell research.
Why can’t Mr. Fox make an ad about stem cell research and say in that ad – here’s what life is like without medication. This is what I live with. If I am late taking my medication – these are the kinds of symptoms I have. My quality of life is based on 20 pills a day.
Even if his life is made better by the medication – who would want to take that much medication? Who can say that they would consider that a “happy existence”? Who can say that they would be able to deal with the side effects? Not to mention the psychological crap that comes along with having limitations etc., etc.,
Why doesn’t having the disease entitle Mr. Fox to make that ad? Who cares whether he was on or off the medication? In fact it’s a stupid arguement. Whether he’s on or off the meds – his life will never be the same – he will always suffer to some degree a host of symptoms. His life isn’t perfect whether he takes the meds or not. This condition will only get worse. That’s his reality and to know that there is a potential cure at our finger-tips and because of religious BS that the cure is decades away and will likely be found in another country – has got to be frustrating to say the least.
Mr. Bush used 9/11 to attack Iraq and some are upset that Mr. Fox stopped taking his meds to show the true symptoms of Parkinson? Am I understanding this correctly?
OIC you want feel good news. You don’t want to see Mr. Fox that way. His reality is just too much for you to bear. How dare he show us HIS reality and use it to help elect someone that just might care – how dare he.
I have to agree with CF’s first comment. Hank, you were wrong about Micheal J. Fox and need to admit it, otherwise you are just as bad as hotlick & co.
JR
Go read the text of the add and then go read what Rush said about it. Then go find Jim Talents position on the issues on the add. Then come back here and offer some informed commentary on it.
You apperently don’t know a damn thing and you making yourself sound like some kind of idiot.
If you knew the facts you’d know that the add is half a step away from being a flat out lie.
Go listen do the Sawyer/Fox interview from 99 when Fox explained why he goes off meds when he’s making an appearance before Congress.
Typical leftist campaign tactic- trott out a “victim” to spread your lies and then attack anyone who questions the validity of their claim as being “insensitive”.
Sometimes the fatual ignorance of people on this forum astounds me.
“rethuglican.”
Wow, good job. That’s almost as good as “dumbocrat,” which is better than “republicunt,” which is about as good as “whiny liberal commie weenie.”
Man, I take back my last comment. It’s a forum full of Rhodes Scholars here. And hotlick, that really was an incredibly witty, even side-splitting response you posted. I mean, really! When someone calls you out directly and you respond with nothing but sarcasm and refuse to address the actual charge, it really makes you look mature! And it really makes it seem as though you truly believe you’re right, because you were able to defend yourself so eloquently and answer all of the points I made!
You’ve all accepted that this is how government should work; two parties, bickering back and forth with no actual debate, only sniping, concessions, and sneaky deals to prevent any useful legislation from actually passing. But why not? It isn’t like our first president warned that exactly this would happen if we let political parties gain too much power. It isn’t like history shows that, without fail, democracies fall apart when parties within governments become to polarized.
Of course not. Carry on.
butlick, are you gonna be “the new Ian” here?Seems that way, and it’s dipicable and intolerable.I’ll bet you think Mother Terresa is a whore.
We could also do something constructive on this thread like debate how there have been ZERO breakthroughs on “embryonic stem cell research”(despite all the hype)and how many other great breakthroughs there have been from other types of stem cell research.
….but then that would take some thought. Sorry, go on with your mindless bashing in ignorance of the facts.
hotlick”Rush should be in jail by now. But being a spokeman for fascists, election stealers and racists has its benefits.”
Election stealers? Please get a life already. As quoted by Paris Hilton”That is so yesterday!” I mean really grow up and learn how the real dem party wins elections. That is by sticking to the issues that matter locally. What you don’t know how? Just refer to the Mayor Daly manual on winning elections(make sure all the dead people vote too).
This hits the nail square on the head!!!
A Somali arrives in Minneapolis as a new immigrant to the United States. He stops the first person he sees walking down the street and says, “Thank you Mr. American for letting me in this country, and giving me housing, food stamps, free medical care and free education!”But the passer-by says “You are mistaken, I am Mexican”.
The man goes on and encounters another passer-by. “Thank you for having such a beautiful country here in America!”The person says “I no American, I Korean.”The new arrival walks further, and the next person he sees he stops, shakes his hand and says “Thank you for the wonderful America!”That person puts up his hand and says “I am from Middle East, I am not an American!”He finally sees a nice lady and asks suspiciously, “Are you an American?”She says, “No, I am from Russia!”
So he is puzzled, and asks her, “Where are all the Americans?”The Russian lady looks at her watch, shrugs, and says…”Probably at work!”
Ok, Let’s get back to the real issue at hand.It’s election time! Woo Hoo
Just get out there and vote.
—–
It’s on the way Heck,these things you just don’t hurry.There will definately be life-saving cures coming from this (slow) research.Just to enjoy the hatred some more, CF, wou8ldn’t it just be delightful if all the assholes that have held up the research were denied these cures?hehehehe
Wow, CF… at first I thought I had come across someone even more cynical than I am. I thought you’d already simply given up on American Democracy altogether.
But if I’m reading your post correctly, you’re absolving Democrats of a great deal of responsibility for the current state of things. Why? Sure, they aren’t in power at the moment, but what have they done to help anything? When have they stood up for common sense?
And who said I was placing blame equally? I’m not placing it on either party or both parties. The parties don’t matter, the only important thing is that there are only two of them, and that they are more important to each other than the welfare of the country.
I’m placing the blame squarely on the shoulders of the American people.
DITTO! Rush is a big fat hypocritical drug addicted impotent idiot, and all of THAT is provable! hah!
Funny, wanna talk desperation? How ’bout stealing elections? Wanna talk desperation? How ’bout conducting a vigil around a brain dead woman in Florida when other people are pulled off plugs around the country with nary a peep? Wanna talk desperation? How ’bout conspiring the deaths of thousands of Americans for political gain? (the elephant in the room). Wanna talk desperation? How bout sitting on yer ass while an American city gets washed away then blaming it on others? Wanna talk desperation? How bout losing two wars to Afghanistan and an already emasculated Iraq? Wanna talk desperation? How bout then trying to make it a trifecta of failure by fucking with Iran? Wanna talk desperation? How bout allowing North Korea to nuke up while bragging about being a kick ass, no nonesence global enforcer? Wanna talk desperation? How about watching Russia now flex its muscles against both the EU and the US because both can’t do shit. Wanna talk desperation? How bout having to cover up buggerers in your party while bragging about being for family values? Wanna talk desperation? How about having rating in the shithole in the face of media channels that serve as propaganda mouthpieces, so much so that they fall off the channel to become White House spokesmen? Wanna talk desperation? How about having to pay journalists to peddle your pathetic policies?
And maybe not a Rhodes Scholar, but I did go to Yale and Columbia Law School. Wanna talk credentials? What are yours?
As far as Rethuglicans go, that’s the proper name for people who in other times would be called fascists. People who tear up Constitutions, feel themselves above the law, and fight wars without provocation.
So you want to talk about that blowhard scumbag Rush? Who cares about civility. He’s a jackass who appeals to the same. And there are so many he can get a quarter of a billion dollars spewing the idiocy that he just did. That says more about people like you than about people like me.
He hates people like me. We’re the Ivy League Elite who know a fraudulent, mindless jackass when we see one, and aren’t afraid to call him a moron.
Sorry.
Mr. Dog who is sly-I didn’t say Rush should be in jail. I didn’t say the election was stolen. You could be confused.I’m hungry.
Tracy
And who’s stopping it?
No one. Research is going on around all over the world. It’s not going to go any better than it is right if the U.S. government funds it.
I’d like to point out something someone posted here months ago, can’t remember who it was. Notice who is NOT doing any research on it. The big drug companies. Why? Because they recognise that there are some fundamental problems with using E.S.C. that may well be insurmountable. And they’ve got some of the best minds money can buy.
Rush is a “dreg of humanity”. Who says that? RUSH! He has repeatedly described drug addicts as gregs of humanity; since he IS a drug addict that means him!
I still want to know why he needed Viagra. To counteract the effects of Oxycontin? Shouldn’t need it anyway; he isn’t married. Since he is such a “family values” guy I’m sure he wouldn’t be fornicating!
laughing,
“When have the Democrats ever stood up for common sense?
The New Deal, Containment, GI Bill, Medicare, Social Security, progressive taxation, et al.
I agree that we, The People, have no else to blame but ourselves for the utter debasement and unworkability of our politics. And five days out of seven I’m ready to chuck the Democratic Party.
Beyond that, I don’t see many prospects for real, radical reform. The names change but the players stay the same. And the problem isn’t the Federal bureaucracy; it’s the permanent, rapacious, and corrosive erosion of democratic self-government by money.
weazl,
My hat of vitriol is off to you, sir. Great to see that Ivy League education put to most excellent, anti-establishment use.
Heckler – the big drug companies rarely do much fundamental research. That is always high-risk; that is why it is usually done in universities.
Ben Huie,
‘Rush Limbaugh’ and ‘fornicating’ in the same sentence. I feel so…dirty.
laughing, you are truely clueless in that you buy the media’s presentation of the democrats.
Weazl-
Impressive credentials.
The problem is that you seem to be more excited to share them than apply them.
I guess I’m talking to the wrong crowd here. I guess I’m just the naive, idealistic child. I guess I’m the moron.
Expecting people to want to actually change the status quo–instead of just changing the party that sits in the White House–is just too much. Our system is fine. Everything’s fine. All we have to do is get the Republicans out of office and everything will be fine again. Because they won’t have scandals, and they won’t cover up for each other out of party loyalty. And the country will heal itself, and there won’t be any more giant divisions between reds and blues.
It’ll be great. I’m so sorry for troubling you all. Go back to your bickering.
Whoa, CF asking me to take back comments?
Right! In your dreams!
When this over the hill Canadian child actor trotted out his disease in these ads he no longer was an advocate for a cure of Parkingsons. He was an advocate for the democratic party.
It’s not about his disease, it’s politics. When he lies, we can call him on it.
He misrepresents Talent’s position. He lies. He is a shill for the democrats.
That Steven is how I spell D-E-S-P-E-R-A-T-I-O-N!
Hank
PS JR, let’s do lunch, seriously.
hotlick, the person who says rush should be in jail is rush! He stated that all drug users should be penalized as bad as drug dealers. of course this is prior to his getting busted for oxycontin.
Hank, can you describe the effects of Parkinson’s disease? Have you ever actually known anyone with it?
Question for the Democrats:
What are the top 3 reasons you believe in and vote for the Democratic party?(I don’t want to hear why you don’t like republicans)
Cody-Here’s my guess what the reasons are:1) There are people who make more than I do. Let’s tax them.2) No War. If we would just talk with the terroists, all would be OK3)I hate BushSorry, I could only come up with two.
Top three reasons to vote Democrat:
1. Handouts2. Weak national defense3. Handouts
Didn’t Limbaugh stop taking drugs when it suited his purpose…that purpose being…not going to jail.
1) People are too stupid to negotiate their own wage. Viva la Unions2) People are too stupid to invest their own money in a voluntary Social Security account3) I hate BushDamn it!
Parkinson’s is a disease whether Fox takes his meds or not. It is a debilitating disease.The doctor who treats Fox came out and said that some of the meds actually contribute to the jerking movements.Simply put – stem cell research could potentially help scientists discover a cure for parkinsons and other diseases.GOP’ers – Rush is all yours.
hotlick my dick
1. Taxes2. Higher taxes3. Even higher taxes….especially for those evil rich bastards who earned it! How dare they make more money than me!
(and I hate Bush)
Rush Limbaugh will die young and I hope his enemies talk shit about his dead ass…on the same day he dies.
hotlick – where have you gone? licking your hot wounds?moron
JimG
Does MJF bear any responsibility for the content of the add, does he not have an obligation to make sure that the add is factually true? Because it’s not! He stepped into the political arena and spouted a lie, whether he knows it or not. He better be ready to take the heat. Unfortunately the debate has ignored the lies and just focused on the sensational.
Jim G: Today’s nice and kind representative of the Democratic Party. “Come, join the Democratic Party.”
Manni, you are the man! I think your comments should close out this forum, cause what you said really is the final word.
dave s,
You’re missing the point. It’s not about Parkinson’s disease. It’s about using Michael J. Fox to lie.
Tell me, exactly how finding a cure for Parkinson’s will be effected by Talent losing his senate seat.
Michael J Fox is using his ‘victim’ status to shill for the democratic party. Period. He is not a victim. He is a liar.
Hank
Hank,
I watched that military heros video you have on your nic link. That was excellent.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/24/AR2006102400956.html
High CEO pay is just another form of taxation thought you guys didn’t like that
By Kevin DrawbaughReutersTuesday, October 24, 2006; 6:28 PM
WASHINGTON (Reuters) – Democrats in the U.S. House of Representatives attacked rising corporate CEO pay on Tuesday as damaging to investor returns and workers’ wages — an issue that could play prominently in a Democrat-controlled House.
With elections two weeks away and polls showing the House within Democrats’ reach, Rep. Barney Frank issued a study saying an average CEO “makes more before lunch on his first day of work than a minimum-wage earner will make all year.”
The study also said the proportion of corporate earnings channeled into top executives’ pockets in pay has doubled from 1993-1995 to 2001-2003, cutting into shareholders’ returns.
“It is amazing to me that executive pay continues to increase at extraordinary levels,” said Frank, a Massachusetts Democrat expected to become chairman of the Financial Services Committee if his party makes the House gains that some expect.
Jim G., Shawn, Dave and other newbies–welcome.
As for butlick and his type,may they rot in hell.FYI, my Father has been parylzed with a spinal cord injury worse than Chris Reeves, for over 12 yrs.So yes, I’m passionate about this issue.20 pills a day would be nothing compared to what this poor man has gone through.And the real travesty is that these 12 yrs could have been used advancing this research, and possibly a healing before he dies.NOW IT IS TOO LATE. There is not enough time for him to ever walk again.Now, does anyone REALLY want to take me on with your ignorant bullshit?I mean really.Compassionate consevatism MY ASS.
Okay, Cody:I’ll take your challenge.But first, a little background.My great grandmother was the midwife who delivered Huck Boyd into this world. (Come on, you know it alls, if you’re REALLY a Kansas Republican, you know who I’m talking about).I handled his employee benefit plans.I was at his funeral.I am a REAL Kansan.So why am I a democrat?I’ll give you three quotes:1. James Carville: “Republicans wanna be somebody. Democrats want to help people”.2. Ron Brown: “The common thread of Democratic history, from Thomas Jefferson to Bill Clinton, has been an abiding faith in the judgment of hardworking American families, and a commitment to helping the excluded, the disenfranchised and the poor strengthen our nation by earning themselves a piece of the American Dream. We remember that this great land was sculpted by immigrants and slaves, their children and grandchildren.”3. My mother: “I’m a democrat because they fight for the little guy. You’re not better than anyone else, and nobody’s better than you.”
Geez Hank, a political ad that’s not truthful?? How can that be!!!
Which party doesn’t resort to this??
Mr Huie all those things you mentioned (in addition to his handling of the war) made FDR probably the greatest President our country has known. Those programs created the great middle class (that’s been eroding since Reagan came on the scene) and spelled the end of 70 years of free market fiscal crapola policy (the same kind we have now) that reduced the US to the equivalent of feudalism and ending in the Great Depression.
TRACY wins today’s award of:
“If you think like me, I like you. If you don’t, I hate you and want you to die.”
For me, I don’t agree with much of what the libs think. But I don’t wish them death.
“We could also do something constructive on this thread like debate how there have been ZERO breakthroughs on “embryonic stem cell research”(despite all the hype)and how many other great breakthroughs there have been from other types of stem cell research.”
Heckler,This is a refutation of the frequently told falsehood that many cures resulted from adult stem cell research. This refutation comes from a scientist doing work in this area.
http://www.stowers-institute.org/WhatsNew/pr2006/PR071406.asp
Holding Rush accountable for his lies would be a full-time job. Who would want to do such a miserable task?
I’m sure there’s a web site somewhere.
SM- You’d better watch out or Tracy will put a pox on your house!!
I know the hard way… he called me a geezer and my arches promptly fell!
Dear Tracy,
I cannot believe that someone with a father that has a spinal cord injury could listen to John Edwards promise that if Kerry ws elected president in 2004, “Christopher Reeves would wald again.”
How can you and your ilk stand by and let the democrats politicize the search for a cure for any disease? How does that help your father? How does allowing nitwits like MJF to lie and get away with it help your father? How does calling me and others names help your father?
You know nothing of the time and money that I and other Christian conservatives have spent working for various causes. You have no idea of the heart ache that has visted my life and everyone else’s life that has ever been alive and payed attention.
The difference is you use MJF’s disease and your father’s misfortune to make a political statement and to level personnal attacks against people that disagree with you.
Tell me, please tell, me how you can listen to John Edwards promise that a political victory for Lurch will make Christopher Reeves or any other person with a spinal cord injury walk again?
And while your at it please tell me how you can look into my heart and determine that I don’t care.
Talk about ignorant bullshit!
Hank
SM, HANK, ALL YOU asses do not have any idea of what living like that is, and could have been cured by now.Why should I give A DAMN what you think of me and my comments?If you are not in favor of this research, I honestly feel you could be sacrificed for the good OF ALL.You don’t know shit about the science, do you SM.You just hate libs, that’s all you know.How cold and uncaring can you be?YOU’RE NOT PARALYZED!!
Radical, left-wing, union-loving, tree-hugging, church-going yellow dog Demmycrat liberal.
Proud of it. Don’t care who doesn’t like it.
Why do republicans want to go back to these times and policies?
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/fsowhome.html
The images in the Farm Security Administration-Office of War Information Collection are among the most famous documentary photographs ever produced. Created by a group of U.S. government photographers, the images show Americans in every part of the nation. In the early years, the project emphasized rural life and the negative impact of the Great Depression, farm mechanization, and the Dust Bowl. In later years, the photographers turned their attention to the mobilization effort for World War II.
Steven,
Tell me, what has embryonic stem cell research given us?
Hank
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/10/051012084443.htm
a medical breaktrhough using embryonic stem cells. It took me six seconds to find one. (I timed myself)
Hank – that is why it is called basic research. There is always a long lead time.
Take a deep breath there Tracy. Or I may be forced to give you yet another award.
It’s the goddamn repugs who politicized this you twit.Pretty short memory huh hank?REMEBER THE “SNOWFLAKE BABIES’?What a goddamn joke, comparing a blastocyst to a living person.IT’S POLITICIZED BECAUSE OF THE REPUGS REFUSAL TO BUDGE on money for the project.They have billions to spend every week on WAR, but nothing to spend ON LIFE!!Now Hanky, if it was your boy laying in the bed, with you wipen his ass, you’d damn sure better be supporting SOME or ANYWAY to help fix him!!
That’s fucking dispicable to attack me and my father.I’m not backing down for his sake.
Since it’s obvious that the Repugnants don’t do research. Why would we expect them to research Parkinsons? With a father-in-law as well as 2 other close friends with the disease…the symptoms that MJF exhibited in the ad were what happens when you ARE ON your meds!…if Mr. Fox had not been taking his meds in all likelihood he would NOT been able to move, much less speak….Hank, Hank…..dude…the Dems are not desperate…LOL….we are wondering what our margins of victory in the Congress will be….hardly a desperate position. Look in the mirror…now THAT is how I spell desperation…. By the way Miss Hotlick, it was President Clinton, with bi-partisan help (anyone remember bipartisanship?) who reformed welfare and got millions of welfare recipients off the rolls. Geeeesh people do some research on your own and stop relying on the “big fat idiot”.
Remember blind faith in incompetent leadership is NOT patriotic!!
SM–IT AIN’T FUNNY.What is it you find so goddamn funny about a good man that can’t move a musle?
Now Hank, ain’t it gonna be goddamn funny if your boy comes back paralyzed and you railed against the research?How in the hell would you live with that?
Dear Tracy,
I don’t find your father’s condition funny at all. I just find all your name calling and hatred rather ridiculous. You will get no where with that. You will convince no one of your beliefs with that attitude.
Hank tell me more about ignorant bullshit. You have really got it on this issue.The political part is who controls the money and where they spend it,THAT’S HOW GOVT WORKS.You’re not gonna swift boat me on this, you are in the wrong, plainly.
Tell me Tracy, please, how would the election of Kerry cured your father?
How can you fall for such idiotic politicization of a condition?
And just because I don’t wear every misfortune that I have had or any one that I love has had on my sleave doesn’t give you the right to defame me or any one else.
Hank
The little snapping dogs hotlick and SM don’t surprise me here.
You can read in CF’s earlier post the surprise of this. I could not imagine any of the long time posters here sinking so low.
Heckler I am deeplay disappointed with you. I am even disappointed in Hank though I should have known better.
I didn’t think anyone could sink so low as to support Rush Limbaugh in this.
(By the way? Rhonda is wrong. Limbaugh has not in any way apologized. He is defending his actions.)
I begin to imagine there is nothing redeemably human in you at all. And yes I will say it again. Despicable.
Mr Price I’ve no desire to have lunch with you. If you feel the need to speak to me I will be at a future meet up.
Nice dialog (”nice” meaning at least you folks are in it, the actual content is a bit shall we say…terse) but the technology here sucks on my Firefox browser, my comments are being attributed to the person right behind me, which is why I thought Manni posted the deperation post. That should be Weasle also nice comments for TRacy which I think was really MrControversy. Here’s why I will always be a democrat and why I will always push my party to hold true to the values it demonstrated in the previous century.
1. Liberal ideas (FDR) have made life better for the masses and conservative ideas maintain status quo which before the US experiment was tried and then adopted all over the world meant no mobility for people of little means and rich people lording it over them. Conservatives, read your own icons (Burke, Hume Jefferson) this is how they thought and their ideas of how economy should run extend from that.
2. White people from the north Democrats came down to the south fought for and even died for the rights of blacks. It was the first time since the Rev. War that happened. Conservatives like to say it was because they didn’t agree with the ideas at the time, but the dems built bridges, made promises and made those promises stand. Civil rights was about trust not who had the better ideas. The people on the other side weren’t talking about ideas then they were standing off not committed to the war, civil rights only themselves and the almighty dollar. And now they’re in charge. Katrina tells us that nothing has changed.
3. They represent the lesser of two evils and presented with only that choice, I as a rational human being will work within that paradigm and keep pushing for movement in the correct direction
Hank you insult me with your comments.the election of Kerry and REASONABLE people like him who would have funded the research that finds the cure.PRETTY SIMPLE. NOT POLITICAL.Common sense. No money-no cure.Any other stew-pud questions?SM, if ya’ don’t like the name calling then just scroll over my comments. simple again. logic, common sense.
TRACY,
Get off of the sympathy trip already would you?
You have not addressed one of the points my father has made, you just keep saying he is attacking your father.
If I come back paralyzed the odds that this research would even contribte to a cure would be slim to none. There is no guaruntee that anything will come of it.
Sitting here and saying that not doing research is causing anything is about as bassackwards logically speaking as you can get.
So far, I have not even seen my father “rail” against the research at all. It is called doing an honest assesment instead of the emotionally unstable tirade you are giving.
THATS ENOUGH.
Why od research on bread mold? That stuff serves no purpose so who cares. Just keep the bread frozen and you won’t have any problems with bread mold!
Oh? Penicillin? hmmm …
I DID ANSWER.READ IT.
WHAT ABOUT YOUR SNOWFLAKE BABIES AND BRAIN-DEAD WHATS HER NAME THAT WE HAD TO HAVE A MIDNIGHT EMERGENCY CONGRESS SESSION ABOUT?AND YOUR SMUG DECLARATIONS THAT THIS IS NOT GOOD SCIENCE AND ALL POLITICS IS ALL WRONG.YOU WOULDN’T KNOW GOOD SCIENCE FROM BOMBS.
EMOTIONAL, YES ADMITTIDLY.
Good God.
Once again; many who log on here must do little other than shake their heads and wonder who these people are.
And CF, I hereby add you to the “scroll-by pile,” – i.e. the tin-foil pile, along with Ed and Ian. Why? BS like this:
“America is a hegemonic, one-party state. The prevailing media sentiment reflects this hegemony, and Rush Limbaugh emblematizes it. Both ends of the political spectrum are not equally implicated. Not even close. So to impute responsibilty for America’s political dysfunction, Congressional paralysis, and Executive overreach to Democrats as well as Republicans is, frankly, either naive or dishonest.”
There’s naivety or dishonesty there, alright. So which are you, naive or dishonest? I don’t expect an answer, and unless it’s made in civil tones, I’ll ignore it anyway.
Just keeping throwing the bombs, people. Some here have even expressed a desire (in previous topics) to make those bombs real rather than rhetorical. Unbelievable!!!!
And laughing; it’s not always like this (though sometimes it seems like it). Sometimes folks actually do think around here, not just go off half-cocked.
Some of us can even disagree without being disagreeable, without it being a personal attack. Sometimes.
Tracy
It will do absolutely no good. But I want to apologize for the folks taking swings at you here.
You repug twits did it again.ATTACK THE VICTEMS!!
If one is going insane, does one begin to write in ALL CAPS?
They can kiss my emotional stinky ass.
As usual, butlick has nothing to add.You a scientist butlick?
Did you people know the embryoic stem cell research is legal? Did you know that Bush signed a bill that allows the Federal funding of embryonic stem cell research using establish lines? Did you know that several places in Missouri are legally doing embryonic stem cell research? Did you know that Proposition 2 on the November ballot in Missouri has nothing to do with stem cell research? Did you know that Seantor Talent has never had a position to block or make stem cell research illegal? Did you know that despite all of the ‘promise’ of embryonic stem cell research all of the medical breakthroughs are being made with adult stem cell research?
Did you know that politicizing the funding for medical research is counterprductive?
Hank
Has Rush ever said anything that was intelligent? So why are we so shocked that he would put down Michael J. Fox?
The Conservative Christian Republicans made the Frankenstein monster that is named Rush and have lavished millions of dollars upon this fool’s head for doing their mean-spirited and hateful comments. That way, these so-called good Christians feel like they have not dirtied their hands.
If one is going insane, they believe that a ball of eight cells that we call a blastocyst is actually a consious human being,WE CAN THROW THEM AWAY, BUT DON’T DARE SAVE ANYBODY’S LIFE WITH THEM!
NOW THAT’S INSANE.(caps off)
Everthing begins from a step. If you don’t make the first step, or if the first step is small and then the second isn’t taken for years then you don’t get to the next. Science makes quantum leaps. It’s not sequential, so there really is value in throwing money behind the research cause it brings hope for those who need it and progress. It’s why stem cells are important.
The religous right at times to me seems a contradictions in terms. Jesus healed not killed, he advocated turning the other cheek, he wept for people he knew he could heal (true empathy), but a good deal of these values seem to be missing from the “Religious Right” they fight for the unborn children, but won’t fight for conditions in which they’re born. Once they’re here they’re on their own. Instead of advocating peace, they agitate for war especially to fulfill biblical prophecy. They (most not all) look for signs instead of doing the work of Christ (seeking and saving the lost and meeting the needs of the poor). From the bible I read, by all accounts I don’t think there should even be a religious right. A religious left like we had in the 60’s is more congruent with the scriptures.
talk to your boy Brownback and his snowflake babies about the counter productivity.
If you don’t agree and you think I’m full of shit, then read about it instead of wasting my time.
Good grief guys. You don’t know when to leave well enough alone. This is deeply personal to Tracy. He is entitled to rant.
Hank-
….did you know the Senator from Missouri is Tallant?? not Talent. Maybe Rush spells it that way?
I’m still trying to figure out what anti-abortion people are against stem cell research but yet these same life is sacred people see nothing wrong with fertility clinics disposing of unused fertilized eggs? Either you are pro-life or you’re not.
Hey Tracy-If you could only get bigger capital letters, maybe someone would buy in to what you have to say.
Crank
Did YOU know that bush’s ONE use of his veto pen was against stem cell research?
Millions suffer who might be helped. All because the pious right can’t control peoples mating habits. But they will try.
I have family with diseases too. But, you won’t hear me making a political issue out of it. But, I guess I’m entitled to. So if someday that suits my purpose, I may do just that.
Tracy,
You come here interjecting your father into the debate saying we are preventing him from being cured because we don’t vote for democrats and then you tout the victim card when we call you on it?
Get over yourself.
You wanted to drag your father into this, not us. You want to drag him into the discussion and use him as political cannon fodder don’t be surprised when he gits hit with a missle.
I think it is more dispicable that you are going to sit here and use your fathers sickness to back your political party than our calling you on it.
You want to get emotional? Go right ahead…
You are living in a fantasy world if you honestly think voting for a particular party is hurting your father and not curing him.
I had an erection that lasted longer than 4 hours. If I could combine that with the shaking palsy, I might have something.
Sorry, hotlick. Red states receive more in welfare payments than Blue states. Blue states, on the other hand, put more INTO welfare. Check it out.
Yeah, SM.If they won’t fund the science,maybe you’ll get some life insurance.
butlick, you haven’t made one point here.
outlander,
When Tracy starts shoving his dad’s misfortune down my throat to make a political point and tries to make me feel guilty then I have a right to rant too.
Nothing in my original comments concerning MJF and his ridiculous, misleading performance was a personnal attack on anyone. It was an opinion based on fact.
Why should I have to tolerate personal attacks in responce from the most ignorant amongst us?
How does allowing myself to be shouted down by a bunch of liberal nitwits advance the debate?
Hank
Nathan, why don’t you try that line of bullshit on my state representative, A REPUBLICAN, and damn fine man, WHO VOTED FOR FUNDING THE RESEARCH.And I supported him,eat crow again since you are way out of line.
I’ve noticed in the Conservative Republicans postings they are filled with very hateful remarks towards anyone with a disability. What happened to that compassionate conservatism?
JR,
“Millions” suffer?
That is almost the most speculative assuming load of crap I have heard.
Ronald Reagan’s own son has made public statements that people who oppose stem cell research make a mockery of the term, “pro-life.” This really is a nonpartisan issue, and if it isn’t it ought to be.
I have an uncle in end-stage Parkinson’s. My grandfather had Parkinson’s. My aunt, like Ronald Reagan, had Alzheimer’s, and I spent two years of my life caring for my father while he fought for his life – and ultimately lost his life – to a brain tumor. Since pro-life people care about the young, remember that brain tumors have surpassed leukemia as the leading cause of childhood cancer deaths.
All of these ailments show promise in stem cell research. Yet certain people in our government have prohibited the most fruitful kinds of lifesaving medical research and their excuses are really farfetched. If I were in Michael J. Fox’s position (and based on my family history that might well be my future) I wouldn’t care which party a candidate belonged to, so long as they supported the science that could save my life.
All I see is the typical hatred from the Libs. It is really something to see. I could give a shit one way or the other, just stay out of my pocket book. I’m not one of the anti-stem cell people. How about Soros funding all the things you want.
Hank darlin’,Most of us regulars know that Tracy’s hot button/soap box is stem cell research. It would be nice if we understand (and possibly empathize) that Tracy is very very passionate about this issue and not bait him in regards to this.
Tracy,
I think you are way out of line using your father to advance your political crap.
Sure Tracy, maybe you’ll get some life insurance too. Good luck with that.
Oh by the way, that would be Mr. Dwayne Umbarger (R) Thayer.Call and tell him what a nitwit he is for supporting this.Hank and Nathan–you got personal when you started.You’ve known from the get-go that this would push my buttons.Up till now, I’ve tried to be kind to you two.You have no sympathy.Now tell me about all your scientific knowledge, you keep saying that this research is going nowhere–back it up.
“Tell me, what has embryonic stem cell research given us?
“Hank”
Mr. Price: I am referring you to this letter to the online Journal Science which refutes the claims many make regarding the greater value of adult stem cell research.
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/rapidpdf/313/5786/439b.pdf?ijkey=R7itotoH.21cU&keytype=ref&siteid=sci
I think it is interesting that your party all but bans research on embryonic stem cell research and then criticizes the lack of results that have resulted. Pretty slick trick, dude. Sorry to tell you that many American voters are waking up to this logical trickery.
This is a link to the Stowers Institute:http://www.stowers-institute.org/default.asp
This basic research organization was founded by Jim and Virginia Stowers – both cancer survivors. Both Jim and Virginia donated 1/2 million dollars to the pro-position allowing embryonic stem cell research in California.
My latter point is that researchers are finding routes around the Bush anti-science agenda. And as recently reported on NPR more scientists are becoming politically active to help save their fields of endeavor.
“Did you know that Seantor Talent has never had a position to block or make stem cell research illegal?”
Did you know that Sen. Tallant NEVER had a position on stem cell research until it became politically expedient to do so and even then his “position” flip-flopped….we really aren’t sure what his position may be next week.
Look up the definitions of “liberal” and “conservative” why would anyone CHOOSE to be a conservative??
You are way out of line by supporting the repugs who won’t fund the science.I supported ONE that did.
Yours is the very first post here Mr. Price. You could not WAIT to get here and defend that sonofabitch Limbaugh. You wasted no time attacking a sick person.
And I am happy to call you on it.
I think we are learning something here. I think we are learning that SOME of the right are so set that they just cannot be reasoned with. Even trying is a waste of time. You just have to fight such people.
Nathan, go back to cleaning your guns and let scientists and doctors make policy suggestions about this research.
Julie,
Bait him? That is comparable to a shark tour boat being right on top of a feeding frenzy in progress and someone saying don’t chum the waters because we don’t want to get them riled up…
Tracy came here all riled up and anyone that dared disagree would be attacked as attacking his father.
Tracy came to this discussion with a stick wiating to wack the first one who disagreed with the “it’s my father” beat down.
aDenforsure – “Jesus healed not killed, he advocated turning the other cheek, he wept for people he knew he could heal (true empathy”
Not according to GOP shill Paul F Rosell. Check out his claims on the evangelist thread.
When stem cell research can be turned into a million dollar money making scheme to bilk the many sufferers of all kinds of diseases and make certain Republicans the only ones to be paid bounties for the many bodies they bring to the scheme, that is when the same Conservative Republicans will suddently justify stem cell research with their God. You know their God – the Almighty Dollar.
Tracy,
I came here to back up my father after I reviewed your posts. I didn’t come here to push your buttons, you were already on meltdown by the time I showed up.
Nathan
The person “way outta line” here is Rush Limbaugh. YOUR father was quick to defend him. CF offered him a chance to moderate his position or qualify his remarks. Hank refused. He must now live with his new image.
I must tell you it is not a positive image.
Would you care to lose your last shred of regard here as well?
“I think we are learning something here. I think we are learning that SOME of the right are so set that they just cannot be reasoned with. Even trying is a waste of time. You just have to fight such people.”
Naw, JR -They are just desperate. And, they have very good reasons to succumb to the grips of fear and dispair. They deserve our pity.
Is that not a Bushism that came from Nathan? I’m not the one attacking you; were already on meltdown when I came along. So, bottom line, it’s never the Bushie’s fault. What a crock!
From the link below, together with other reading/listening I’ve done, this is what I understand:
Mr. Fox did make an ad in support of the Democratic candidate for Senate, who supports embryonic stem cell research, opposed by Senator Talent. There is, however, a state issue in play here: a proposed Constitutional Amendment protecting legal embryonic stem cell research in Missouri. Opponents of this amendment claim it authorizes human cloning; proponents claim it expressly bans cloning. Apparently, there is great interest in the Constitutional Amendment, thought to be helpful to the Democratic candidate, in encouraging turnout.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/24/politics/main2121910.shtml
Steven Davis,
You were a great running back, but not such a great debater.
JR,
First of all, I couldn’t care less about what you think of me.
Second, you have always shown your disdain towards my father and I. I don’t care.
Third, My fathers comments about Rush and MJF were right on the money.
Tracy’s is in full meltdown. She just needs to calm down.
Lay off Tracy you conservative, me-first(me only!!), sociopaths! Why in every thread is it that folk of a conservative persuasion chide or belittle those who are or have suffered? For those of you who have some form of faith, would Christ rant like you do and jump on a man with a paralyzed father(HE can still see you even if we cannot)! For those of you who aren’t religious would you talk to anybody the way you are doing if you were in a room with them and they could see your (currently smirking) face.
It’s funny how what’s in a person’s heart comes out when they can’t be held accountable for it on the nameless, faceless web.
I’m for the research!! If the blastocysts are going to be thrown away anyway, then let’s use them to save the lives of those who are having pain.
I had also heard again and again that the adult stem cell progress was much ado about nothing, but let’s pursue all available means to bring life and quality of life to this world.
I am a pro-lifer, but I’ve come to realize that in our overpopluated world life comes and goes quickly. There are many who come to be born into hell and then quickly die. I think they should take priority (I’m talking about the ten thousand plus (mostly children) who die form starvation EVERY DAY.
But then why would I even talk about that here, that’s not really a conservative concern is it.
Let’s hope Hank and Nathan don’t believe in Kharma. I’d hate to be in their shoes when it comes around.
I want to address Heckler’s concerns; I hear them a lot and they are understandable.It’s true, embryonic stem cells have given us nothing in the way of curing diseases, but adult stem cells have. Let me try a half-assed explanation as to why it’s so difficult to culture embryonic stem cells without screwing up the cell programming and causing them to multiply indefinitely (like cancer).Adult stem cells are pluripotent. There are several kinds, and they have the ability to become certain kinds of cells. For example, stem cells harvested from bone marrow can turn into different types of blood cells. They are already partially “programmed”. So, while their ability to change into the desired cells is limited to the origin of the stem cells, they are more likely to mature without complications.Embryonic stem cells, on the other hand, have not been “programmed” at all. They are blank slates, able to turn into any type of cell imaginable. Since we culture them when they are at such an immature stage, there is more room for error when trying to turn them into the desired cells (to cure diseases). It’s ridiculously difficult to replicate the system nature has in place.
Now, if we have such a poor rate of success, why bother trying to research embryonic stem cells?
We shouldn’t do it because we’re trying to cure diseases. That will come much, much later. We need to research them because it’s the only way to fully understand the cell’s signaling mechanisms. Just think, you start out as a single cell that is “polarized”; when it splits one cell will be the front end and the other will be the back end. These two cells then send out signals while dividing to determine what the next cell will be, and so on. All the way up to a creation of a fully formed human being. We haven’t entirely figured out how this programming happens or how it works.
Embryonic stem cell research is a way to learn about this system. The more we know about it, the likely it is we can successfully force cells to become a certain type, which can help with curing diseases.
The reason why drug companies won’t invest in stem cell research is beacuse the research itself is in it’s baby stages, and isn’t likely to yield a $$profitable$$ outcome anytime soon. BUT it will give us knowledge of how this stuff works, paving the way to cures for Parkinson’s and other diseases. In this stage, the people who are interested in this stuff are university researchers, and they rely on government funds.
It’s not a magic bullet, I doubt that we’ll find cures from embryonic stem cells for a long, long, long time. But it’s still valuable and necessary.
Rush Limbaugh is a fat, over-rated, overpaid big bag of wind that gets his power from smarly Conservative Republicans that take delight in being nasty and mean. You are known by the company you keep.
In that case I will repeat it again and apply it to you Nathan. Despicable. I find you beneath comtempt. I can only hope you and Rush and your Dad have crossed a line you may well live to regret.
Let me help you out and save a LOT of suffering.
At the base of this ALL is your pious desire to tell other people how to live because YOU think you have a direct line to “God”.
Do you wonder why some want absolutely nothing to do with you God?
AHHH, ain’t all this grand.
I am more afraid of that clown who described himself as “an ivy league elite” than I am of republicans, democrats or terrorist
Besides, if we don’t fund cutting edge research, other countries will.Don’t we want to be the leaders in medical research?I mean, imagine if France had a breakthrough in stem cell research. Wouldn’t that put conservative panties in a wad, imagining that those stinky-cheese eating nancies are more advanced than us?:)
Oh yeah whtbewb?!?! I’ll get you at recess!!
HELLO TARA!!Maybe you can do this without being emotional.I wouldn’t be a good son if I weren’t emotional and passionate about this.
S&M, how big of ol’boy are ya’ anyway?
Tara, thank you for your explanation on stem cells. It assists a lay person like me in coming to an understanding of the issue.
By the way, aren’t the French a leader in certain areas of Biological research, particularly genetics?
A thoughtful post Tara.
Tracy I am sorry again for how you were treated here. Whatever part I may have had in that I apologize for.
hotlick,I can post here, too.Does that make me cool like you?
“..those stinky-cheese eating nancies”
Pheww!! Can you say that??I’m getting a word picture.
Boy, quite a day around the ol’ WeBlog.
GMC70,
Does one political party not control both elective branches of government, and represent a majority in the appointed branch? Yes or no? If ‘yes,’ that represents an ideological hegemony. If ‘no,’ then explain to me a) how Democratic-sponsored legislation has been passed in the last four years, and b) how the recent decisions of the Supreme Court represent a generally liberal view.
There is absolutely, positively, Republican political hegemony within the Federal government. For you to assert otherwise is, at best, factually mistaken, and at worst, factually dishonest. Period. And I’m quite interested to see how you finesse this.
Second point: the media have colluded in this hegemony. This will, of course, raise an enormous cloud of stink from the Wingnuts on this blog. But I don’t care what they say AT ALL. Every bit of conventional wisdom about the ‘way things are’ or what ‘reasonable people’ ought to do or believe about a) the national elections in 2000 and 2004, b) the pretext for attacking Iraq c) the Bush “Administration’s” supposed ‘war on terror’ and d) the efforts of the Bush Administration to overturn the separation of powers and the Constitutional protections of American citizens has been either suppressed, soft-pedalled, or unpursed in the national media. Is the media in the tank for the Right-wingers? Absolutely. Look at everything they’ve failed to report over the last six years, and then look me in the eye and try to tell me otherwise.
You don’t read my posts, GMC70? Who cares? Neither do I take seriously the posts of those who act as ‘good Germans’–who give aid and succor to the Right-Wing fascist takeover of the Federal government, in all its forms. You among them, GMC70. Which is too bad, because you don’t seem to be an unreasonable sort.
What, pray tell, do you make of the assertion by David Addington and others, that the President has ‘final authority’ over the interpretation of the Constitution? How does this not usurp the powers of the Judiciary? What do you make of the President’s policy that the ’signing statements’ overrule the spirit and letter of Congressionally-approved legislation? These questions, for me, are the acid test for whether Republicans care more about being Republicans than about being Americans.
How about you, GMC70? Do you support these claims by the Executive? And if you do, why should I not call you a fascist who cares more for the amassing of power by the Republican Party than he cares for the preservation of the Constitution and democratic self-government in the United States of America?
To watch you turn on those, such as I, who are raising the alarm about the erosion of our freedoms and democratic form of government–well, GMC70, when one lives in unreasonable, undemocratic, creepingly fascistic times, there are more important things than not offending people’s sensibilities. Nobody likes to hear the truth when it invalidates so much of what they had believed. And it’s just sad to see so many Right-wingers so dead set on denying it so that they don’t have to admit they were wrong.
Hank Price,
It really is beneath you to accuse Michael J. Fox of faking his symptoms. Or, at least, up until now, I would have thought it was beneath you.
Thank you Julie, you are a sweetheart.And yes I realize they went into this knowing what you pointed out.
“Tracy’s is in full meltdown. She just needs to calm down.”
As usual, butlick adds NOTHING and is STILL 100% wrong.Now that’s funny.
Mr C-No. No, it doesn’t
Hey Tracy (or shall I call you some silly little name?)
Just what are you asking?
Just so all the silly idiots who like to make up names for one’s nics, SM is my initials. I thought you would have figured that out.
Stacy-I’ve already told you. I don’t give a shit one way or the other about this issue. I am enjoying the sputum flying around.
Butlick, I’m plenty calm.AND, I know the science.From what I’ve read you have no facts or logic to bring.
Stacy-You are correct.
I didn’t ask you anything.It’s obvious you don’t know squat about stem cell research and the science behind it.
Butlick, I get it.You’re just here to try to irritate people with a clue, since you don’t have one.
JR,
You make me laugh. It is always nice to end the evening with a smile on one’s face.
P.S. That’s Buttlick with two “T’s”
“Steven Davis,
“You … [are] not such a great debater.”
Posted by: SM | October 25, 2006 at 02:49 PM
Since I consider you the universe’s reverse barometer, I thank very much for that high compliment.
Is this opposite day?SpongeBob rules!
Tracy,
You asked me this: “S&M, how big of ol’boy are ya’ anyway?”
So I asked you what you meant.
And don’t presume that you know what I know, you know?
Hank: It has always been my observation 100% of the time that you get nowhere arguing with someone emotionally invested in an issue. (I learned that from being married)
My suggestion was meant to suggest ignoring such a person and to make your point another way.
Obviously, it is pure politics with little to do with science or cure. Tara did a very good job explaining the current status of research, which shows how inane the Fox matter is. Did I read that the bill he is talking about is an anti-cloning measure? A bit disingenuous, Mr. Fox.
I’d like to walk right up to Fat Limbaugh and hit him in the face with a shovel.
That is what he deserves.
It is not QUITE as satsifying, but you CAN let Mr. Limbaugh know how you feel. His email address is rush@eibnet.com.
You can also boycott the sponsors of his show and let those sponsors know.
Not one person that went on the attack against MJF has brought anything close to facts or even truth here.Pitiful.Just pitiful.Defend the Terry Schiavo hero’s but say I’m slime for bringing up my loved one condition, and the fact that republicans have had the chance to help be part of the research for cures.All political? and I’m a low life for being right about this.Terry S. was all political, and the only cure for her condition was the ultimate cure.Hank wouldn’t let a dog suffer but he’d keep that poor woman alive to keep his bushbuddies in office.Shameful.
As for the top three reasons why CF is among the yellowest of Yellow-Dog Democrats, that’s easy:
-The Democratic Party is the party that believes in the common good;
-The Democratic Party is the party of social and economic progress for all Americans;
-The Democratic Party is the party that create a just, stable, and interdependent world.
Democrats make America better for everybody. The Republican message is based in selfishness and exclusion, and it depends on hatred and sowing division.
I believe in progress, inclusion, and decency as theological and political values. That’s why I’m a Democrat, and it’s also the reason I could never, ever, ever, vote Republican. Republican values despise social progress, depend on exclusion and divisiveness, and, as the Republican support of torture and encouraging of colossal greed makes clear, are the very opposite of Christian and American values.
S & M, that was a joke about the playground comment.
Gee, hotlick, I guess it sucks to be me.Gotta go finish my newspaper column and see if they got the DVDs of my TV show burned yet.
Outlander
I hope you are not condoning what Rush did. I thought you better than that.
A year after President Bush’s decision on stem cell research, scientists say they are being hindered by federal rules governing the use of embryonic stem cells because access to stem cell lines approved for research is limited. But the director of the National Institutes of Health said the agency is “diligently working” to make more cell lines available.
Mr. C-Who do you write your column for?What DVD’s are you burning?I’m sorry you think you suck, I don’t think so.
This “GOP shill Paul F Rosell” you make mention of. Has he studied his bible? Is he an evangelist or something. Even if he is, that doesn’t make him right. The leaders of faith will have a lot to answer for their complicitness in leading their respective flocks off a cliff.
You got the Religious Right voting on fringe issues concoted by a man who is irreligious (I can seel Karl Rove with a list in hand of Christian Virtues crossing off the ones that have no value to his political candidates) and ignoring the one thing no one can even deny that was true about Christ “that he helped the poor.” How can they be for it (I guess maybe doing it themselves), but support a political party hell-bent (in more ways than one) on never giving anthing to help the poor (hence the misinterpretation of the Biblical phrase “the Poor you will always have among you.” which I think they take to mean don’t feel put off if in making things good for yourself there are even more poor people when you’re done).
On the left you have the pedophile harborers. Instead of showing some backbone by putting those people out of the priesthood forever, they keep moving them around.
I don’t blame the Christians. They’re sheep without a sheperd!
This generation of Christians is suffering from a massive defitit of leadership.
Fox lied in his ad.Rush is right.End of story.
Tracy, please keep your S&M comments to yourself. It is clear that when you see the letters “SM” you think of S&M, but try keep that kind of thing to yourself.
Is it safe to come out of my foxhole??Did the all-clear sound??
Don’t think I said anything about it, JR. But of course it shouldn’t be blown out of proportion like it is. He said something. Apologized for it. End of story.
And you are not saying that Michael J . Fox should be immune from criticism when he makes a political statement, right?
JR, I don’t recall you attacking me for being silly and emotional.Democrats, and many reasonable republicans intend to fund this research.
The offending parties here use the usual tactics, start by blaming the victim, and then claim they were attacked when we step in to defend innocent victims of terrible circumstance.Remember how the indigent folks of NOLA were attacked by hacks like limpballs and billo?
Sorry guys, but MJF stated in his OWN book he did just that…off meds…for his testimony in congress. So where are we again…
Rush can be a dick but…if its been done before by their own admission why cant it be done again?
You liking or not liking Rush is a different forum.
And while the right is busy showing it’s true colors I owe Heckler an answer from way up thread.
Hekler this thread is about what Rush did in response to the Fox ad.
I personally heard Rush make his very first comments on this Monday. I can tell you that there was no hint of holding back or half heartedness. Rush out of the box said Fox was acting or off his meds. It was a vile and despicable thing to do. If Limbaugh had a problem with facts (why should this instance be any different?) in the ad he could have addressed it that way and not with this vile despicable attack.
Again that email address is rush@eibnet.com
Nice values, Republicans: defending those who would shield sexual predators and attacking the handicapped.
I don’t think it’s probably doing much to win over the independents. But hey, it’s a free country.
mrbill, read above.the medicine CAUSES the shakes.He was not acting.
Hank and Nathan.I’ll be thinking of you two while I sit with my dad tonight.Feed him, give him meds, wipe the poop that he can’t control, and make sure that the ventilator is working.I’ll be thinking of your cold, heartless remarks.And praying that you don’t have to do the same for your loved ones.
Once again, S & M.I’m non-compliant.
Fox is a victim.Rush attacked the victim.End of story.
Hey this is pretty much a Republican Post in a republican state right. Well after re-reading this post I think we just kicked your butts. We offered facts you joked around were mostly just offensive and had not a stitch of relevant fact to offer to the dialog.
Get used to it!
Just as you’ve shoved conservative, elitist philosphy down our throats for thirty years, I think in a couple of weeks we will begin shoveling all-inclusive, progressive, liberal policy down yours.
In our case it was poison, in yours it will be medicine.
Good night all!
Tracy,
When I’m wiping my ass tonight, I won’t be thinking of you.
one last thing, CF, really enjoyed your post but read what I said about the policies you criticized (I erroneously attributed to before I realized that the poster’s name/time appear below the post not above it.
Those were all done by FDR and they all contributed to a vibrant middle class that had only gotten bigger and better til Reagan took office. Now the country ammassed fabulous wealth since then but even in the boom years the toll has been taken on the middle class by conservative policies in business that have fueled consolidation, stiffled (gobbled up) competition and off-shoring of our manufacturing base.
So we disagree there, but on balance I’m glad a forward thinker such as yourself is on the left side which is of course the right side.
As you clearly said in your second post, the Democrats have been feeding at the money trough and selling out to big business too (When I realized the implication of the free trade agreements on our economy I could’ve cried cause it was done by the last Democrat anybody has had any real reason to admire).
They still represent the direction I want to go in and a viable one (as opposed to day the Green Party)
Wezie–great post.
Mr.C and CF, rocking as usual.
Cody–there’s really only ONE reason to vote for the democratic party: we’re the party that believes that were all in this together, that effective gov’t can help people, that working together is better than individuality run amok.
Hotlick–are you aware that Rush Limbaugh was once on WELFARE (yes, you read that right) on WELFARE for two years.
Boy, talk about a waste of tax dollars.
Also, I want to say Tracy, hope is on the way.
In a few weeks we should have a group of politicians who will help accelerate the basic stem cell research beyond it’s initial stages and move it to a place where it can help folk like your dad.
I cannot honestly say that i can even imagine what you’ve been going through, but you have my hope and my blessings and prayers.
At least Rush didn’t use the safety net as a hammock, like many in the lib party do.
“In a few weeks we should have a group of politicians who will help accelerate the basic stem cell research beyond it’s initial stages and move it to a place where it can help folk like your dad”Kumbaya,DopeforSure
Hotlick, at least when Limbaugh is being a belligerent buffoon, you can see his face (and of course tha’t really only because he get’s paid).
Nobody even knows who or what you are. I picture you as a kind of cute, kind-of-hot girl, a little Ann Coulterish I suppose.
As much fun as this is, I gotta go get me some twinkies.
Perfect!
There once was a man named FoxWho liked to give campaign talksHe got off his medsTo go after the fedsAnd the liberals all think that he rocks
The troll strikes again!Hey! I’m too hot and cute for twinkies.
Hey Tracy if you cant get embryonic stem cell research going maybe when our fellow democrats take control they will make mercy killing available to us. It’s just the rage ya know. Sad story, but at least we will have an option. Damn repukes keeping us from killing the weak and diseased. Who do they think they are telling us we have to live.
“Troll” is so 2005. Keep up with the blogger times. :)
Parkinsons drugs start wearing off, and those symptoms get worse before the next dose. They also build like an immunity to it as the disease progresses, the medications aren’t as effective as they once were. I hope Rush gets Parkinson’s disease so that he can let his food drool out of his mouth and when he raises the spoon of pureed meat to his face, his hand tremor smacks it right in his big nose.
Can’t say I’ve seen people with Parkinsons do a head roll like that, but I guess there are all kind of anomalies.
Most of the people that I knew and visited in resthomes had tremor-like symptoms or did some minor quivering. Some had some mental impairment with partial or sporadic memory loss.
I guess the stem cell argument was about using fetal stem cells versus adult stem cells? The way I understood it, is that Missouri (one of the states approving stem cell research) will not do the research on fetal stem cells because federal funds on that particular research will be denied if they do.
“Hi, I’m political mom. I really don’t like Rush so to make me feel better I hope Rush gets this terrible disease too!”
Nice. Real nice there. As the self-proclaimed referee of this blog, you just got a great big foul.
I hope the WE editors would publish the hateful remarks of the Prices to show the world what Kansas GOP stands for. And Nathan, converted any Iraqis yet?
As a note, I too have emotional interest in this. There may be a possibility that my own father would be yet another victim to this debilitating disease.
CF:
At least we’ve calmed down.
1) “Does one political party not control both elective branches of government, and represent a majority in the appointed branch? Yes or no?” At the federal level, yes. It’s called elections; they have consequences. If the polls are right, that may well change soon. Hardly “hegemony” – just the result of elections in a democracy. Personally, even as a conservative, I’m not particularly saddened at the Dems getting one house of gov’t. Certainly the elected Repub. leadership hasn’t earned re-election. And divided gov’t means that little gets done; generally, and that’s a good thing. Gov’t does less damage that way.
2) “the media have colluded in this hegemony.” Balony; and you asserting otherwise does not make it so. We’ve discussed this in other posts, other places, I’ll not rehash it here. The reality, of course, is we all see the world through our respective rose-colored glasses.
3) Whether the president asserts FINAL authority or not is irrelevent. He don’t have it. However, he does interpret the Constitution on a daily basis, and within the executive branch that interpretation is binding, absent controlling judicial decisions to the contrary. I do the same daily in my job. My decisions about he constitutionality of a particular act are binding in my cases, until a judge decides otherwise. So, too, must the president apply constitutional principles daily, subject ultimately to judicial review. I frankly think this argument is the proverbial mountain out of a molehill. It’s merely the interrelationship of the various independent and interlinked branches playing itself out, as it always has. And will again. The president has never stated, to my knowledge, that he’s not subject to judicial decision. The “imperial” presidency has come and gone, waxed and waned, throughout our history. FDR was probably the closest this country has ever had to a dictator, followed by Lincoln (some would argue the other way around). No, I’m not asserting that Bush is on a par with either. But as I noted earlier; I’m willing to let the constitutional institutions work this out, without manning the barricades. We may get to that point; we’re not remotely there yet, JR’s panic notwithstanding.
Why do so many feel like their “side”, and only their “side”, care about the country? I try not to impune the motives of those I disagree with, recognizing that reasonable people can disagree. Many here seem to have forgotten that. If you, CF, cannot understand that, perhaps it’s best we simply ignore each other. I certainly have no intention of continuing to respond to you, CF, if you continue to simply toss “fascist” labels at anything you disagree with; that’s not designed to foster debate, it’s designed to end it, i.e. Godwin’s law. I suppose I could respond with “communist” in return, but what would that accomplish? We’d both leave pissed off and know nothing of what the other thought.
I actually have the perfect answer for this. I held back posting to let some of our right wing posters show us just what they really are.
The answer of course is for Fox and those for stem cell research to fight back.They should make another ad that addresses the Rush and republican response to the first one. Only this time Fox should make it with NANCY REAGAN who also is in favor of stem cell research. Let ol fat mouth Rush twit Nathan and crank Price take their licks against the wife of the late Ronald Reagan!
JM I worked with elderly for many, many years, the symptoms are different for everyone. I had one lady whose leg would kick up near to her chin, thought she’d surely knock herself out one day. Minor tremors they are not.
S&M, I’ve never claimed to be any sort of referee. I’m just sick of republicans getting away with saying any sort of nasty crap they can while we Dems are expected to always be nice. So foul me if you want to, those who criticise others the most are usually not the ones who have to deal with it.
The fact of the matter is Rush Limburger is an opportunistic, money worshipping piece of scum. If he could make as much money doing liberal radio, he would. But he’s found the same bottom-feeding niche that the ann coulters, hannitys, et al, have found. And there are enough mindless robots to listen to them that they make a mint doing it.
GMC70,
Bush absolutely asserts “final authority” over the interpretation of the Constitution. This is, in fact, well-documented, and quite unprecedented. Here’s the story from the Boston Globe that I excerpted here a while back.
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2006/04/30/bush_challenges_hundreds_of_laws/?page=full
Here’s the money quote, from Golove, an NYU law professor who specializes in executive power:
“David Golove, a New York University law professor who specializes in executive-power issues, said Bush has cast a cloud over ”the whole idea that there is a rule of law,” because no one can be certain of which laws Bush thinks are valid and which he thinks he can ignore.
”Where you have a president who is willing to declare vast quantities of the legislation that is passed during his term unconstitutional, it implies that he also thinks a very significant amount of the other laws that were already on the books before he became president are also unconstitutional,” Golove said.
Defying Supreme Court
Bush has also challenged statutes in which Congress gave certain executive branch officials the power to act independently of the president. The Supreme Court has repeatedly endorsed the power of Congress to make such arrangements. For example, the court has upheld laws creating special prosecutors free of Justice Department oversight and insulating the board of the Federal Trade Commission from political interference.
Nonetheless, Bush has said in his signing statements that the Constitution lets him control any executive official, no matter what a statute passed by Congress might say.
In November 2002, for example, Congress, seeking to generate independent statistics about student performance, passed a law setting up an educational research institute to conduct studies and publish reports ”without the approval” of the Secretary of Education. Bush, however, decreed that the institute’s director would be ‘’subject to the supervision and direction of the secretary of education.”
Similarly, the Supreme Court has repeatedly upheld affirmative-action programs, as long as they do not include quotas. Most recently, in 2003, the court upheld a race-conscious university admissions program over the strong objections of Bush, who argued that such programs should be struck down as unconstitutional.
Yet despite the court’s rulings, Bush has taken exception at least nine times to provisions that seek to ensure that minorities are represented among recipients of government jobs, contracts, and grants. Each time, he singled out the provisions, declaring that he would construe them ”in a manner consistent with” the Constitution’s guarantee of ”equal protection” to all — which some legal scholars say amounts to an argument that the affirmative-action provisions represent reverse discrimination against whites.
Golove said that to the extent Bush is interpreting the Constitution in defiance of the Supreme Court’s precedents, he threatens to ”overturn the existing structures of constitutional law.”
A president who ignores the court, backed by a Congress that is unwilling to challenge him, Golove said, can make the Constitution simply ”disappear.”
********************************
Bottom line: when a President asserts the right to do an end-run around any judicial checks on Executive power, no meaningful system exists for holding a President to Constitutional account. And that’s where we are right now–an unprecedented Constitutional crisis that is going unreported.
This, for me, really is the most important issue facing America; I regard it as a greater immediate theat than anything else. That’s why I have, frankly, a hard time taking Republicans seriously, since their response is either to loudly insist that nothing is wrong, or to quietly look the other way since it’s their guy who will be in the driver’s seat.
This is meant in one spirit for Tracy, Roo, and political mom. It is meant in a different spirit for Hank, Nathan and Rush.
I ammend only slightly this original piece.
Dear Lord (God/Yahweh/Buddha/Bob/Nobody):We beseech You, O merciful One, to bring comfort to those who suffer today for whatever reason You, Nature, or the World Bank has deemed appropriate. We realize, O heavenly Father, that You cannot cure all the sick at once–that would surely empty out the hospitals the good nuns have established in Your name. And we accept that You, the Omniscient One, cannot eliminate all the evil in the world, for that would surely put Thee out of a job.Rather, dear Lord, we ask that You inflict every member of the House of Representatives with horrible, incurable cancers of the brain, penis, and hand (though not necessarily in that order). We ask, Our Loving Father, that every senator from the South be rendered addicted to drugs and find himself locked away for life. We beseech You to make the children of every senator in the Mountain Time Zone gay–really gay. Put the children of senators from the East in a wheelchair and the children of senators from the West in a public school. We implore, Most Merciful One, just as You turned Lot’s wife into a pillar of salt, that You turn the rich–all the rich–into paupers and homeless, wiping from their positions of power, and yea, may they walk through the valley and into the darkness of a welfare office. Condemn them to a life of flipping burgers and dodging bill collectors. Let them hear the wailing of the innocents as they sit in the middle seat of row 43 in coach and let them feel the gnashing of teeth that are abscessed and rotted like the 108 million who have no dental coverage.Heavenly Father, we pray that all white leaders (especially the alumni of Bob Jones University) who believe black people have it good these days be risen from their sleep tomorrow morning with their skin as black as a stretch limo so that they may enjoy the riches and reap the bountiful fruits of being black in America. We humbly request that Your anointed ones, the bishops of the Holy Roman Catholic Church, be smitten with ovaries and unplanned pregnancies and a pamphlet about the rhythm method.Finally, dear Lord, we call upon You to have Jack Welch swim the Hudson he has polluted, to force Hollywood’s executives to sit and watch their own movies over and over and over, to have Jesse Helms kissed on the lips by a man of his own gender, to make Chris Matthews go mute, to let the air–quickly–out of Bill O’Reilly, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Mark Levin, and and turn to ash all who are responsible for those who smoke in my office. Oh, yes, and unleash with a fury of a plague of locusts to nest in the toupee of the Senate Majority Leader from the great state of Tennessee.May You hear our prayers and grant them, O King of Kings, Who sits on high and watches over us as best You can, considering what screwups we are. Grant us some relief from our misery and suffering, as we know that the men You shall smite will be swift in their efforts to rid themselves of their misfortune, which in turn may rid us of ours.With this we pray, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy-Spirit-Who-Used-to-Be-a-Ghost, AmenThat’s from Michael Moore’s Stupid White Men.
LOL I love it.
Maybe Rush just got to the pharmacy first, ahead of Michael? No, I’m wrong, he fakes oxy scripts. My bad.
I used to kind of like Rush back in the nineties. He just seems mean anymore. And more than just a little hypocritical.
What’s wrong with MJF lending his support for a cause he believes in? Oh I forgot, he’s not a lobbyist. But its still a better cause than preventing harmless research. Or is there harm?
I used to be a Republican, but hypocrisy does not seem to be so prevalent in the Libertarian party, so I switched. I still reserve the right to vote for any candidate regardless of party in the general election. Imagine if NEITHER current party had a majority, and had to get members of a third group of centrist, elected representatives that cared about NO PET PROGRAMS, in order to get their way? I imagine that would cut down on the bad legislation.
I’m not sure if we can all agree yet that no legislation is better than bad legislation, but I’m confident our founding fathers would. It would be nice to find conservative candidates who don’t become corrupted from power and influence, and liberal candidates who aren’t fooled into thinking that a government bureaucracy could run anything better than a good private firm that must compete for its funding on its results, not its contacts.
Reasons I’m not REPUBLICAN:1) I’m not in 1% of wealthiest Americans, but I’d like to be2) Abhor hypocrisy, deceit, favoritism/racism/cronyism3) Regulation over Liberty (Gay-Marriage, Immigration)
Reasons I’m not DEMOCRAT:1) Welfare/Warfare go hand-in-hand2) Regulation over Liberty (Min Wage, SS, Medicare, Welfare)3) Support inefficient bureaucracy, socialistic policies
Why I’m a LIBERTARIAN:1) Smaller government2) Fewer taxes3) More freedom
Simpler principles for a complicated existence in a complicated world. It is government intervention into the economy that causes most of the problems we seem to be expecting it to remedy.
Why I lean Democratic over Republican? They have a bigger pool of productive experience to draw from, resulting in fewer acts of idiocy.
The 2-party system encourages you to choose the less-apparent of two evils. A 3-party system (or more) would require more participants to vote their conscience rather than their party. Unfortunately in most states, most third-party candidates have to get many, MANY times as many signatures just to get on the same ballot as those in the major parties. Why should a candidate with greater member numbers need fewer signatures?
My $.02, thanks. Sorry, I’m from PGH, PA, not Kansas. Go Steelers!
Rush apologized if he offended anyone, he also explained that he did not intend to offend anyone.Rush, himself, is legally deaf. Rush, himself, has a disability.Fox, himself, has admitted that he has gone off his meds, before, to make a political point when he spoke before Congress.There is absolutely no legal prohibition against embryonic stem cell research.There is a ballot issue in Missouri which actually has more to do with human clonning than stem cell research, and the left is lying about that ballot measure.There are, currently, about 72 different uses for adult stem cells and umbillical cord stem cells, which receive federal funding.There are zero, that is right “0″ proven medical used for embryonic stem cells.The only thing Congress and Bush have done is block the use of federal funds for embryonic stem cell research.Billions of dollars are spent by private companies and by various state governments on medical research every year. Embryonic stem cell research gets very little funding because it is not very promising.Drug companies care about results, and embryonic stem cell research is comming up goose eggs, it is a huge bust and waste of money.Michael Fox has lied.He has lied about the effectiveness of embryonic stem cells.He has lied about the ballot issue in Missouri.He has even supported Democrat candidates who also voted against embryonic stem cell research.Fox is a political hack who happens to have a horrible disease.I watched my grandfather die of Parkinsons.I watched George Parsons, a former Republican Party Chair and local businessman, and very good friend, die from Parkinsons.I would like Fox to get better, but I can disagree with Fox and point out that Fox is lying and that his commercial is in bad taste.So can Rush Limbaugh!
I thought a Libertarian was someone who changed their position every 20 minutes to adjust to the prevailing political wind. Joking of course…
JR,
Glad you don’t pray in our church; there would be pot roast a burning, diapers overflowing and sneeze/cough events would increase exponentially with each prayer minute passed.
“There are, currently, about 72 different uses for adult stem cells and umbillical cord stem cells, which receive federal funding.”
A blatant lie, posted by the liar, Paul F. Rosell. Shame on you for this ridiculous claim.
http://www.stowers-institute.org/WhatsNew/pr2006/PR071406.asp
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/rapidpdf/313/5786/439b.pdf?ijkey=R7itotoH.21cU&keytype=ref&siteid=sci
Paul you are just so bankrupt on credibility. Just very sad.
Here’s a chance to register your approval/disapproval of the corpulent, drug-addled, impotent, crybaby fascist from Missouri:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15411275/?GT1=8618
Guess that tells you how CF voted.
And, wow, a whopping 80% of respondents say Limbaugh went too far.
Republicans, you may want to rethink your counterattack on Michael J. Fox. The public ain’t buying it.
I’ve noticed a lot of people referring to politicians as ‘leadership’.
I think its important to remember that the President is a leader of the executive branch, not the country, as a King would be. Congressmen are even less ‘leadership’ no matter what title you give to any senior member or committee chair. They are REPRESENTATION. You know, like legal counsel. I only went to public school, but they taught us we elect these people to represent our interests in DC.
Are you being represented in DC, or is your ‘Leader’ representing DC to you? I guess it depends if you elected someone who works for you, or someone who works for the government.
Why I’m not a libertarian: I don’t want to live in a 3rd world country.
I have yet to see any nation built on the theories that libertarians hold (financially) that don’t have 1. extreme poverty, 2. extreme corruption in the few rich that benefit from the very poor. 3. Unbelieveable suffering and death rates.
Every single developed country in the world has social programs. That does not make them SOCIALIST nations. Think for a little while about all the things that are regulated. Wanna have surgery like Mexico? Wanna work in factories like they were at the turn of the century? Do you wanna drink water when it came out of a polluted river? Who do you think attempts compliance with the laws that protect us?
Well thank you, hotlick.You’ll find my column every week in the Prospector, and the DVDs were of last night’s show with the Libertarian and Reform candidates for governor. We reran parts of Monday’s debate, and let them answer the same questions.A good time was had by all.
Dang! Long read on this thread today. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a thread pick up so many posts during the first few hours as this one has, including the, um, Biblical ones. :)
The question that keeps coming to mind is, what difference does it make whether Michael J. Fox was on or off his meds? Either way, those meds are not going to cure him. He’ll get progressively worse, in spite of whatever medication he’s taking.
Or is it that if he purposely was off his meds for the ad(vertisement)–it’s AD, not ADD–and/or hearings, he might elicit some empathy and attention? Seems to me, that would be a normal, human thing to do. Let people see how bad the condition is. If he was on meds and there was nothing to see, I’m sure there are some who would ask what the big deal is. “Hey, he looks okay, to me. What’s he bitchin’ about?” I’m sure Rush would be the first one to rush to that kind of statement. ;)
As usual, Rush Limbaugh reverts to low blows and personal insults, both of which are his claim to fame. I often wonder if that isn’t why conservatives like him so much.
Jesus wept.
What Limbaugh said was awful.
I’m still betting that on November 7 the country will prove again that politics is local.
Hey Redneck HANK,You should probably learn to spell what it is that you are trying to understand, you moron.
And here is one from your ‘bible’ Judge not, lest you be ‘judged YOURSELF’Your friend Satan who awaits your visit down here.
Hey Hank baby….. your such a biacch…. you just want Rush all over you…. IDIOT (he could share his pills with you for some personal favors I bet)
Monster thread: 202 posts and counting. So the folks at the Eagle should analyze what’s the reason.
Everyone likes Marty McFly, and no one wants to see anybody picking on him. This little episode illustrates why trotting out victims is such effective politics. Cindy Sheehan, the 911 widows, Democrats have it down to a science. They can say virtually anything and if anyone criticizes them, it’s, “how could you say that!” And Limbaugh stepped right in it.
BTW CF, MSNBC polls are like Fox polls or CNN polls that anyone can respond to. Absolutely worthless.
Everyone likes Marty McFly, and no one wants to see anybody picking on him. This little episode illustrates why trotting out victims is such effective politics. Cindy Sheehan, the 911 widows, Democrats have it down to a science. They can say virtually anything and if anyone criticizes them, it’s, “how could you say that!” And Limbaugh stepped right in it.
BTW CF, MSNBC polls are like Fox polls or CNN polls that anyone can respond to. Absolutely worthless.
I see that California governor Arnold, a mega-sucessful Republican businessman, is taking calculated steps to distance himself from Bushco.
He’s championing anti-global-warming policies for California. The interesting thing about California is, it does things “different” like inventing personal computers, biotech, wind generation, satellite-transmitted TV, composite sports equipment, and high-tech agriculture, that make a lot of money, and eventually become adopted elsewhere. California has an inventive economy. Kansas could have one too, but too people here have a sheeple late-adopter mentality.
“Democrats have it down to a science”
BushDaBum has been doing that ever since 9-11.
GOP shill Paul – got any proof that Fox lied? Or shall I just say that you are lying?
Mexico has good doctors and affordable medical care.
Word around the campfire tonight is that Rove is apoplectic over this Limbaugh imbroglio. Rush undid a lot of the work the RNC has done to save these states. What should have been local in MO and NJ just went national…and people are pissed.
What chumps.
outlander,
Regarding the MSN instant/self-selecting poll:
Unscientific? Totally.Indicative? Arguably.Measure of the zeitgeist? Absolutely.
And that’s why I pointed folks to it. To mix a metaphor, I’d say Rush’s fat mouth just shot the GOP in the foot.
CF: I admit that I had to look up “zeitgeist”. But your mixed metaphor is pretty much on target.
I just don’t think Rush carries that much weight anymore (no pun intended).
outandoutliar chastises liberals for “trotting out victims.”
Yeah, right, because a woman who lost her son in Iraq isn’t a real victim of anything worthy of sympathy.
Real victims like the 9-11 widows, Cindy Sheehan, and Michael J. Fox are a lot easier to take than the faux-ones like Rush and Michael Savage and Ann Coulter, “how we’ve been victimized by affirmative action and the war on Christianity and the homosexual agenda and ‘political correctness.’”
Ah, yes, who’s a bigger victim than powerful white conservatives? No one if you listen to Rush.
Rush Limbaugh always did have a tin ear. He’s so used to hearing “mega-dittos, Rush!” that he forgot there’s still a vast country with thinking people in it–people who think Rush and his sychophants are bloody idiots . . .
StevenYou are the “liar” pall. Are your qualifications any better than the OB/GYN who wrote this?:
http://americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5977&search=Fox
“The plain fact is that embryonic stem cell research is proving to be a bust. There are currently 72 therapies showing human benefits using adult stem cells and zero using embryonic stem cells. Scientifically-minded readers can review this medical journal article on the status of adult stem cell research. Adult stem cell therapies are already being advertised and promoted while no such treatments are even remotely in prospect for embryonic stem cell research.”
Dr Steve, your response please?
AOS MEETING: Rapid Hearing Loss Observed With Overuse Of Vicodin
LOS ANGELES, CA — April 26, 1999 — Researchers report that significant hearing loss is associated with abuse of Vicodin™, which combines the drugs hydocodone and acetampinophen, according to the results of a study presented April 25 at the annual meeting of the American Otological Society, held on April 24-25, at the Marriott’s Desert Springs, Palm Desert, CA.The combination of hydrocodone and acetampinophen is used commonly to alleviate pain presents side effects similar to other habit forming medications and has the potential for inciting physiologic dependence and tolerance with repeated use.
Well
MJF did an ad for a Republican Arlene Specter in 04 I believe thanking him for his support of some advanced medical research –
I’m on laughings side — the same people here every day — in essence saying the same things and arguing at air — go out and do something to try to change what you believe needs changing — except you hot lick — you have to stay here so we know where you are at all times — you can be dangerous to us and yourself — doing it for your own good
Indeed. hotlick, you’re grounded.
Your source may be an OB-GYN, Paul-shill, but he didn’t come up with the bogus and unprovable “72 therapies” BS.
Here’s the original, from LIFENEWS. com (of course)–
“Mark Pickup, a disability rights activist in Canada, commented on the Lima study in a statement sent to LifeNews.com. He said he wants to see funding of stem cell research go to adult stem cells instead of embryonic because they provide the most hope for paralyzed people like him.
“Not one human therapy has come out of embryonic stem cell research while 72 therapies have come from non-embryonic research,” he said.
*****
And let’s see, Michael J. Fox took a lot of crap on this thread for being Canadian.
I guess Mark Pickup is equally worthy of ridicule, eh?
So typical for the wingnuts to beat up on someone who is severely disabled for putting himself on display in order to further the cause for stem cell research, only to turn around and manipulate with fear and lies in order to make their cause for invading, destroying, and killing only God knows how many people in a country that had nothing to do with 9/11.The hypocrisy makes me want to throw up.
Wow, only on this blog could such a NON-ISSUE garner so amny posts!
Viva La Revolucion Blanco!!
Rush wanted the sympathy of the public for an illness he brought on himself through lack of character, but is quick to condemn someone ravaged by a disease they had no part in acquiring. That’s your typical self righteous righties.
It is ironic that Rush himself has given the issue that will divide the indecent from the decent among one side of this deeply divided nation.
There is NO Democrat equivalent to this. You Republicans must sort this out among yourselves.
I have met Hank Price and shook his hand. I am so very disappointed but not terribly surprised by his stance here. He has left me with no respect for him at all. His one saving grace I would acknowledge is that he quit beating up on Tracy and either out of shame or some other reason abandoned the thread.
He and Nathan may yet prove more worthy than Paul Rosell who I openly here call an enemy of America and Americans.
Send your opinion of Rush to rush@eib.net. Let him know how hated he is. He will not care. The man has no wife no family and no principles. But it is your duty to let him know just how despicable he is.
Just more irrelevant chum for the leftist piranhas to engage in a feeding frenzy over.
I despise pudgy, but the guy ain’t running for office, peoples.
Viva La Raza Blanco!!!
“StevenYou are the “liar” pall. Are your qualifications any better than the OB/GYN who wrote this?:
http://americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5977&search=Fox ”
Good lord, are you really this dishonest Mr. Rosell?
1) In your reply to Steven, you overlook the fact that he quotes primary researchers. You quote an OBGYN who is obviously extremely partisan on the issue (the source you pulled from was hardly unbiased). Your characterization of the situation as Steven verses an OBGYN is clearly dishonest, since Steven is also referencing quotes from qualified individuals.
2) The “she’s a doctor so she knows better than YOU” is argument from authority. Steven’s sources are involved in the research. Mary is a political activist who is using her medical credentials as a tool for her activism on the issue.
3) The article Doctor Mary quotes was written by a fellow of the Family Research Council. Reading Steven’s source, this is the guy the other researchers were referring to as “irresponsible”.
Did you even bother to read Steven’s links, or did you just run and get your own?
Paul F. Rosell,
“Fox, himself, has admitted that he has gone off his meds, before, to make a political point when he spoke before Congress.”
Two snips explaining why, and what happens when he’s “off”.
‘Excerpt from Lucky Man’http://www.michaeljfox.org/news/article.php?id=5I had made a deliberate choice to appear before the subcommittee without medication. It seemed to me that this occasion demanded that my testimony about the effects of the disease, and the urgency we as a community were feeling, be seen as well as heard….Sure, the symptoms were severe??ooked as though an invisible bully were harassing me while I read my statement. My head jerked, skewing my reading glasses as if the back of my skull were being slapped. I was fighting to control the pages of my speech, my arms bouncing as if someone were trying to knock the paper out of my hands. …—-
Read the 1st part of article for more about Fox’s symptoms when he’s “off”, and “on” meds. The meds cause involuntary movements (dyskinesia).
In the ads, was Michael J. Fox “off”, or “acting”, as Rush, Hank, Nathan, Paul, and others claim?Or “on”, and trying to function normally, but having dyskinesia?
I’m glad we’re all talking about this. It’s an important issue. It’s also one where I don’t quite toe the party line.I think people who are pro-stem cell research need to sell their position, because it IS something that is in dire need of federal funding. As I said before, the amount of knowledge to be amassed from str is worth all of the hassle of fighting the religious right.In order to make it a bit more appealing, I think they tend to exaggerate the possibilities of cures for devastating diseases. I have no doubt that stem cell research will contribute to curing diseases; but that will be only one of many goals and one we won’t see for many, many years. So, ads like the one with MJF make people think “Hey! The republicans want Marty McFly to DIE! If I vote Democrat, we can cure him!” Definitely not even close. However, I respect him for being passionate about the issue, because chances are he knows he won’t directly benefit from funding of embryonic stem cell research, but wants it to move forward anyway. Anyone who thinks he’s acting seriously needs to grow a heart/brain.
And Paul, you slut, did you even read my first post? Just because there are no medical uses for embryonic stem cells RIGHT NOW doesn’t mean that the government shouldn’t fund it.
And I’ll have to search for a source, but if I remember correctly, we can harvest stem cells from 8-celled embryos WITHOUT KILLING THEM. That’s right, we can take those embryos that are going to be tossed in the trash can/frozen indefinitely and take a totipotent cell from them without being baby murderers! Scientists are quite happy with this compromise and could do a lot of good with it.
And yet, the religious right still opposes this. Why? Because in some vaguely imaginable scenario, a single cell from an embryo can turn into a baby. Say it with me, WHAT THE F—I think that this issue is so politicized that neither side wants to build a bridge and offer a compromise. Heaven forbid they piss off their base or look like flipfloppers/RINOs/DINOs instead of actually thinking about the common good!
We need government funds for this kind of research. we need to stop toeing party lines and start actually thinking of a solution that would make everyone happy, and allow science to move forward.
Parkinson Foundation Debunks Limbaugh’s False Smears of Michael J. FoxRush Limbaugh has repeatedly attacked actor Michael J. Fox for appearing in television campaign ads promoting stem cell research. Fox, who suffers from Parkinson’s disease, appears “visibly racked by tremors” in the ads.
“He is exaggerating the effects of the disease,” Limbaugh told listeners yesterday. “He’s moving all around and shaking and it’s purely an act. … This is really shameless of Michael J. Fox. Either he didn’t take his medication or he’s acting.”
According to the National Parkinson Foundation, Limbaugh has no idea what he’s talking about. The Washington Post reports:
[I]n an interview in Ladies Home Journal’s September edition, Fox said he was taking a medication that causes jerking, fidgeting and other abnormal involuntary movements, known as dyskinesia. Fox said he was taking another medication to lessen those side affects.
An official of the National Parkinson Foundation said movements like those exhibited by Fox are the result of taking medication to treat the disease, which would otherwise result in rigidity.
“When you see someone with those movements, it’s not because they have not taken medication but because they probably have taken medication for some time,” the official said. “If you don’t take the medication, then you freeze.”
Limbaugh continued the assault today, calling Fox’s video “an attack ad” that is “filled with disinformation about embryonic stem cell research.”
Those who oppose embryonic stem cell research can’t get past the “What’s in it for me?”
I mean, hey, since we haven’t found a way to program stem cells to cure cancer, we should just give up on them, right?
Makes me ill.
This should be a non-partisan no brainer, like global warming. WHY DO WE HAVE TO POLARIZE EVERYTHING?!
You people aren’t hollering about your tax dollars supporting federal funding for, say, surveying green algae of the Pacific, but you’re going apeshit over something that can actually BETTER SOCIETY. The government funds tons of research that has no effect on YOU. Without money, science comes to a halt.
Ok, I’m done ranting. This is all quite ridiculous.
Rhonda Holman,
“Rush Limbaugh rightly apologized for accusing Michael J. Fox of “exaggerating the effects” …”
Rhonda, please post your source(s) for that. It’s basic ‘Journalism 101′ — and the credibility of this WE Blog thread.
‘Media falsely reported Limbaugh “apologized” for attacking Michael J. Fox’ http://mediamatters.org/items/200610250014
Paul F. Rosell,
“Rush apologized if he offended anyone, he also explained that he did not intend to offend anyone.”
Paul:1 – Show us the link(s) proving he said that.2 – Is your HERO really that clueless?
I can’t pretend to have read all this (whew!), but I find sickening that anyone would Tracy for wanting research to go forward that at least MIGHT help people, particularly when it’s being blocked for totally inane reasons.**************************GMC, your MO is showing, it’s becoming tiresome and predictable. Fortunately, it’s also very off-topic.
. . .would “attack” Tracy.
Normally I leave my splashdash errors unedited, but that one had me scratching MY head.
Sorry folks, to leave ya’ hanging.I just have to abandon this thread.It’s just way too painful for me to deal with.Thanks to all of you kind people who have come to my defense on this subject.
Also I think you should know that Hank wrote a very nice apology.
Tara – “This should be a non-partisan no brainer, like global warming. WHY DO WE HAVE TO POLARIZE EVERYTHING?!”
Simple – the Republicans decided to polarize it with their attack on Fox.
And, Mr KIA “I just don’t think Rush carries that much weight anymore (no pun intended).” – Rush’s show is still one of the Meccas the GOP top brass goes to when they want to preach to their choir. The others are Hannity, O’Reilly, Boorst, Coulter, etc. Note where Cheney went to talk about possible 2008 candidates. Note where Dennis hastert went to try to explain Foley. Limbaugh is a prime example of what the leadership in the GOP now stands for.
Regarding the legality of embryonic stem cell research. It was admitted that it is legal provided it’s using only established lines. But sometime back I read that most of those lines are contaminated, thus the necessity for establishing new ones, which federal funds is currently out of bounds. Can anyone shed some lights on this?
You are correct RooHaa. Existing lines have been shown to be contaminated. That is the reason for the current controversy.
BTW – TRACY – hand in there. It must be Hell you are going through. And to have the Republicans put a guy on TV play-acting the tremors like Rush did is incredible. It truly shows what kind of “Christians” they are.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20061023.PARKINSONS23/TPStory/Front
Ben
Correct me if I’m wrong, but there is no ban on E.S.C. research, only on government funding of it.
Problem is heckler – with the common commingling of funds at research universities and other research centers that will pretty much eliminate a lot of avenues. “Blue-sky” research is commonly done in public institutions; not private industry.
JR (or anyone on the left)
The ad was factually false. I’ve tried to scan through 200+ posts and find no one on the left address the content of the add.
Any takers?(if I missed it please point it out)
Ben
If it’s simply a matter of accounting I don’t see a problem. Accounting practices can be changed.
Thank you, Heckler, for shedding some light on this. So the question is not, is E.M.S. legal, but should the federal goverment pay for it? My interest in this subject just went up. I’ll say again, let Soros et al pay for it.
oops, E.S.C
Heckler – have you ever been involved in University basic research? Instrumentation is used by everyone – including War Department research by the way. It is a bit more complicated than “simply a matter of accounting”
Ben
I’ve never read the law. Is the ban on funding the research or is the ban on funding University’s that are doing the research in any form? Or is this a distinction without a difference?
Heckler – it would be a ban on “funding” the research in any way. So, what happens when I need to run EXAFS or something on a sample. I use the equipment at Stanford Research Institute or Cornell to do that. That equipment is partially government funded and is used by all sorts of people for all sorts of things. I have used that equipment for industrial research; also for Defense Department research. Under the proposed law it could not be used for stem cell research.
What would happen if a private donor to a research university stipulated that certain activities could not be carried out? It would simply not be workable.
Again I ask; have you ever been involved in such basic research?
Tracy I want you to know you’ve got an allie here. I lived with my quadriplegic uncle for many years in my childhood so my mother, grandmother could care for him. He was not worse off as your father, he had limited use of his arms, but it took years before he could really do anything- he eventually learned to live on his own but still needed home health for all of his life. He died of gangrene and infections a few years ago.
My memories in childhood are big round hospital beds that turned him, held his spine in place with prongs in his head, changing catheter bags, specialized equipment all over the place, teaching him to eat, drink and do range of motion. My grandmother was already a hospice nurse and my mother worked, so they’d take turns.
Maybe we need to tell conservatives how much money they’d save in taxes if we could cure these things? Not only in insurance (most can’t work to afford insurance anyway), but state medical care alone would be astronomical. I’m sure the care for my uncle alone through his 25 years was in the tens of millions.
I am sure there is a definition in the debate rules for the question that Ben poses, but I don’t know what it is.
“Again I ask; have you ever been involved in such basic research?”
Isn’t it like asking, “Have you ever been pregnant; had parkinson’s; had AIDs;fought in war”, etc, etc.It’s a flawed question.
hotlick – my point was that if he has any experience in the area he is pontificating on. The research environment in such institutions is such that it is impossible to build the kind of “wall” around the research he is referring to. It is not a flawed question. However, pontificating on something in which one has zero experience is falwed.
Like pregnency, AIDs, Parkinson’s, etc?
No. More like someone who has never driven a car talking about how driving should be done.
The comments by Rush Limbaugh just shows what level of decency these so-called Conservative Republicans reside. And what angers me the most is that most of the so-called Conservatives tack on the label Christian in their beliefs.
God has nothing to do with degrading someone’s dignity, much less take delight in doing it. Thta is the biggest tragedy of all in this political arena of today.
“Did you even bother to read Steven’s links, or did you just run and get your own?”
Thank you KSagnostic. Your question would assume that Paul F. Rosell is even remotely interested in the truth. He is not. He’s an obscene lying sack of shit.
Let’s face it, everyone makes factual errors; I have. Paul on the other hand, insists upon spreading lies – he does so consistently and because of that, the inescapeable conclusion is that he is doing it on purpose.
“Lie” is a strong word. Paul’s actions require its use.
Ben
No I have not been involved in basic research, that’s why I’m asking you.
Care to take a shot at the question I addresed to JR at 8:42?
I agree, Ben. Nowadays, many biology research requires extensive use of supercomputers. If I’m not mistaken, WSU’s Hydra was partly funded using federal grant, thus rendering it unaccessible for embryonic stem cell research. Is this interpretation somewhat on-track?
I did not see the entire ad. I have seen nothing to indicate that any of it was false as you claim without substantiation. It would seem that if it WERE false then Rush would have gone after that rather than doing his “play-acting” at Parkinsons as he did. As for ” 200+ posts and find no one on the left address the content of the add” the thread topic was Rush’s play-acting. And THAT has been thoroughly discussed.
Quite frankly, GOP friend Rush made the decision to “play-act” rather than to make the ad’s content the question. That is why Rush’s behavior has been the topic here. If Rush had anything real to say he would have said it. He didn’t.
As for the research I have been involved in basic scientific research (not medical). Much of this was DoD sponsored including chemical ‘devices’ and defense from them. The “common” equipment I used was the same used by other researchers. That is why such legislation would be such a problem. What if Soros did what hotlick suggested – would that then mean that I would have been unable to do my DoD work in the facilities?
Research equipment is tremendously expensive – we have to share it. Otherwise duplication costs would be rediculous.
Roo Haa – BULLSEYE! And I want that supercomputer for non-biology research as well. Rather than each of us buying our own we buy a big bertha and all use it.
I direct readers interested in the source of the “72 proven cures” lie to the links I provided. It used to be the lie was “65 proven cures”, but with lie inflation, I see it is up to 72 now. Interesting…
Ben
He DID address the ad, actually he addressed the adds Fox did that ran in three different states. And he did it over 2 days. He did a detailed discussion of what was wrong with them.You just heard what was “reported” in various news outlets. And in typical fashion the Eagle Blog gods only addressed what they found to be outrageous, not the real meat of the issue
Rush is a smart guy. He knew that if he just addressed the ads the only people who would hear about it were the people in his audience. By saying something that he knew would get the MSM in a snit he guaranteed that the issue would get broader exposure, though he knew that much of it would be focused on his words about Fox, not the ads truthfullness.
I am going to agree with Tara’s points above – 1) the benefits of embryonic stem cell research is a long way off and 2) those potential benefits may be overstated.
However, we owe it to ourselves and the rest of the world to research this valuable area. We have the best scientific minds and the best resources in the world, despite Bush’s anti-science agenda.
heckler, if rush was so concerned, then why didn’t he address this when MJF did the ad in ‘04 for republican Sen. Specter? virtually the same add, just a different party.
Rage:
I don’t know that I have an MO. If you argue that I have an agenda, well sure, we all do.
And mine has often been to tone down the level of poisonous rhetoric on this blog. Note, NOT tone down the disagreement; disagreement is healthy.
But personal rhetoric like attacking with pejoratives or emotionally-charged labels (i.e. “fascist,” “socialist,” or worse, ad infinitum) to any idea we may disagree with doesn’t foster debate, it ends it. For some here, it’s designed to end it. It’s intellectually ignorant, short-sighted, and frankly beneath some very intelligent folks here. And no, it’s not enough to respond with “that’s the way it is, get used to it” or “we play hardball,” etc. It is that way because some CHOOSE to make it that way, on BOTH sides of the political aisle. It’s very frustrating, and confining, to see here, again and again, the same labels tossed back and forth between the same people.
When a topic is posted, I swear I could write how the thread will go. You’re right in that sense, it’s quite predictable. And sad.
heckler, if rush was so concerned, then why didn’t he address this when MJF did the ad in ‘04 for republican Sen. Specter? virtually the same add, just a different party.
My son does embryonic stem cell research. He received funding from The Stowers Institute last summer and is in the process of setting up his lab at Mass General Hospital. Meanwhile he continues his science at the Harvard lab where he was a post-doc fellow. Just the permissions and paperwork that must be in place for him to relocate his stem cell lines is mind boggling. And as already discussed the equipment (solely for his research) is being purchased and installed. Does this take away from the time he spends on his science? YES! All this “get your ducks in a row” in a state where the procedures are already in place and just need to be followed. In states like California where embryonic research with private funds has been approved by the state legislature they have to write the procedures before they follow them. They have models to follow (mainly from Mass and New York). The money spent to be sure they follow the federal laws, the time spent to comply all takes away from the time these talented scientists should be spending on their science and the good they will bring to all mankind.
heckler – then why did Rush make the decision to jump around play-acting like he did. I saw that with my eyes. Rush did that for the shock value he knew it would create. I didn’t see some guy doing a fake voice-over purporting to represent Rush; I saw Rush himself pretending to have palsy.
Post the supposed lies. Show why they are lies. That might make sense. But don’t complain when we attack Rush for what Rush did. Rush asked for it.
dave s
I havent seen those adds. They may well have been perfectly accurate. I don’t know.
Harvard? Well, I’ll try not to hold that against him!
;^)
(MIT myself)
Heckler,
You may be mis inforrmed or you may be lying.
I have heard almost every single word Limbaugh has said on this. This includes hearing live his initial attack.
He has done very little on the substance of the ad. Other commentators have explored it but not in detail beyond defending Rush.
I did not know until last night just the despicable lengths Rush went to. His “ditto cam” audience was treated to something I did not see.
While he was accusing Michael J Fox of acting, Limbaugh was waving his arms, whipping his head around and wildly whipping his body around in his chair. He almost fell out of his chair.
Sickening. Exaggerated and sickening
We have seen the exposition of just how despicable Limbaugh, Hank Price, and Nathan are willing to be. Do you care to add your name to THAT list Heckler?
Harvard? Well, I’ll try not to hold that against him!
;^)
(MIT myself)
Rage:
If you argue I have a particular MO, I don’t know that I do.If you argue I have an agenda, well sure, we all so.
And mine has often been to attempt to tone down the level of poisonous rhetoric on this blog. Notice, I did not say tone down the disagreement. Disagreement is healthy, but what often passes for debate here is not. It’s not about choosing up “sides,” or “winning.” It’s about exchanging ideas and information.
It is intellectually ignorant, short-sighted, and frankly beneath a number of quite intelligent folks here for topics to degrade to throwing around personal attacks, pejoratives, and emotionally-charged (and usually misapplied) labels like “fascist” or “socialist.” Some here, frankly, use poisonous writing to shut up those who disagree with them; others use outrageous writing to stir the pot.
You’re right in that sense, it is quite predictable. I could probably tell you in advance on any given topic how the thread will go and what each writer will likely say.
Remember how we’ve been told we have so many “hits;” far more than blogs attached to papers in larger markets. But there are only a couple dozen or so regular posters. Why is that? I suspect that is because many read the level of invictive here, and quickly move on, shaking their heads in wonder at the level of nastiness. And that’s sad. We’re better than that; or at least I hope we are.
And if you expect me to back off from that stance, think again. I won’t participate in the mud-fest here. But I won’t shut up, either.
Thanks Dick tRaCy. Nice to see that your mind is made up. Nobody should try to confuse you with facts.
Now go take another handful of Oxycontin and you will feel much better.
Sorry about the double posting, rage. I got an error message with the first one, didn’t think it went through. Apparantly it did.
JR – that is the “play acting” that I referred to – and what some consider to be truth.
Hey, maybe it IS true! Perhaps Rush was undergoing withdrawal from his drugs?
GMC – double posting – I have had that problem too. Must be a conspiricy ;^)
Looking for the MJF ad?
http://movies.crooksandliars.com/KO-LimbaughMJFox.mov
Ben
I was posting at the same time as you about Limbaughs play acting. You saw it too then.
It really does add a new layer to Limbaughs filth.
I see RD has posted a link to Michael J Fox’s ad. Maybe someone can get Rush’s sickening “ditto cam” parody of Fox up here for our readers.
GMC70,
When I use the word ‘fascist,’ it’s in a very precise, technical, and historically accurate sense: it refers to the private ownership of public goods, the consolidation of governmental power, and the employment of sophisticated propaganda techniques aimed at suppressing dissent and asserting social and political control.
I don’t call just anyone I disagree with, a fascist. I reserve the term for those whose positions exhibit one or more characteristics of the above definition.
As I always say, if the jackboot fits, wear it.
And NOW the fat schmuck Limbaugh is defending his little video. Seems the dispersal of that video in the media has further revealed how disgusting Limbaugh is.
JR
I really don’t care what kind of list you put me on. I won’t lose any sleep over it either way.
heckler
You put yourself in small and miserable company if you defend Limbaugh on this.
Heckler,
“Rush is a smart guy.”
Rush doesn’t know about Parkinson’s, and the affects of the meds.
Rush attacked Fox: “Either he didn’t take his medication or he’s acting”.
Fox’s meds actually CAUSE the DYSKINESIAS that Rush accused Fox of “acting”.
When Fox is “off” meds, he suffers completely different symptoms — rigidity, tremors, difficulty speaking, inflecting, etc.
Learn about it, http://www.michaeljfox.org/news/article.php?id=5
Parkinson’s is chronic, and progressive.Accusing someone diagnosed with it in 1991 of “acting” in 2006 isn’t “smart” — it’s ignorant, and cruel.
Hey Folks! Click here to renew your Rush 24/7!
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/menu/fathers.guest.html
Heckler,
“Rush is a smart guy.”
All the more reason to believe that what Rush did was deliberate and malicious. And that those who support what Rush did are the same.
Hey folks, you know I’m right. You just want to me ME the issue and not the facts. That’s ok, I can take it.
Heckler, as posted before, if you go here:http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/10/25/olbermann-gives-us-the-visual-to-limbaughs-attack-on-michael-j-fox/
They show the ‘04 ad about halfway thru. Watch the whole segment, it’s an eyeopener if you are not completely closed-minded. Btw, I love the way KO addresses him as ‘the comedian rush limbaugh’. ;-)
Heckler, as posted before, if you go here:http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/10/25/olbermann-gives-us-the-visual-to-limbaughs-attack-on-michael-j-fox/
They show the ‘04 ad about halfway thru. Watch the whole segment, it’s an eyeopener if you are not completely closed-minded. Btw, I love the way KO addresses him as ‘the comedian rush limbaugh’. ;-)
dang it, sorry about the double post, getting “proxy error, did not post messages.” Second time in 2 different posts. Could it be the length of the thread?
If so, it would be appropriate: a thread about Rush Limbaugh should contain a lot of lard.
See this Timothy Noah article entitled – “Rush Limbaugh fakes stupidity”. It explores an interesting angle.
http://www.slate.com/id/2152195?nav=wp
Heckler,
Do you think Rush knew that the Parkinson’s meds cause dyskinesia, when he ridiculed Fox’s dyskinesia, and accused Fox of not taking his meds?
Steven, have you considered that maybe it’s a stunt to direct attention away from denny asshurt?
Tracy:Anything that diverts attention away from the news about Denny and the Iraq war would be very valuable to the Republicans.
My favorite paragraphs from the above link:
“You think Rush Limbaugh is dumb enough to lay into a person for exhibiting symptoms of a debilitating disease? Come on. Nobody’s that dumb. You think Rush doesn’t know that over time the medications that a person takes for Parkinson’s can reduce motor control rather than increase it? Oh, please. You just have to read the papers to know that when he sets his mind to it, Limbaugh can navigate his way around the PDR very adeptly, thank you very much.
“Take it from me. Rush Limbaugh wants you to think he’s a dumbass, a pea-brain, an absolute yutz. It’s a con job. Don’t fall for it.”
Cracks me up.
Oh, Tracy – I wanted to also say I was sorry about how you got treated around here yesterday. Those were not shining moments for this blog. You just have to consider the sources.
Thank you Steven.Me and my family have recieved overwhelming support on this issue.Thanks to all of you.
“Rush is a smart guy. He knew that if he just addressed the ads the only people who would hear about it were the people in his audience. By saying something that he knew would get the MSM in a snit he guaranteed that the issue would get broader exposure, though he knew that much of it would be focused on his words about Fox, not the ads truthfullness.
Posted by: Heckler | October 26, 2006 at 10:22 AM”
So you’re saying, Rush deliberately acted insultingly toward MJF in order to secure more publicity for himself and his POV? Wow.
Political_Mom:I can name at least one country that was founded on Libertarian principles, that did not suffer from lawlessness, poverty, starvation, etc. Its called the United States of America. At the time of its founding I believe it could have been considered a third-world country by today’s standards. I don’t think that regulation is what allowed our infant libertarian nation to defeat the dominant world superpower (England, which was being run by its third German King, I believe), I think it was the freedoms we take for granted that most Europeans, Asians, and Africans may never even know. You’re free to differ, but understand that a philosophy that refutes freedom relies on that same freedom for its validity.
Rich – in the cities they did have regulations on things like sewerage, etc. Many of these ‘ultra-free’ ideas work in a rural setting but when we are on top of each other they don’t.
CF:
There are certainly historical circumstances which warrant the use of the term “fascist.” There are persons, even today, who doubtless deserve the label.
However, NO ONE remotely within the mainstream of American politics has come even close to reaching such a definition. As applied within the American polity today, such a term is just the emotionally-laden misapplication I spoke of. Those who so throw it around cannot be taken seriously. It’s the Godwin bomb, designed to effectively end debate by labeling your opponent (and his speech) as outside rational consideration. The shoe has indeed fit, and you’re wearing it.
There ya go.
GMC – “Godwin bomb”? Not familiar with the term but I see your point.
Sort of like commie, terrorist-lover, America-hater, criminal-coddler, jihadist-lover, cut-and-runner, etc etc etc that your side uses so much.
Ben:
I’ll agree. However, I don’t buy into “sides,” and you won’t find me using those sorts of terms. I think we’ve disagreed from time to time,
;-) !!!
but I don’t think I’ve ever used those kinds of terms to characterize you. If I have, I owe you an apology.
And google “Godwin’s law,” you’ll see what I mean.
Gotcha – thanks
There is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically “lost” whatever debate was in progress. This principle is itself frequently referred to as Godwin’s Law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin’s_law
BTW – I agree with you – with my additions.
GMC, I knew Mike Godwin (sorta). I argued with Mike Godwin.
You’re no Mike Godwin.
Actually, Ben, generally accepted usage of Godwin’s law implicitly acknowledges that Nazi analogies may occasionally be valid.
However, Nazi != fascist. The Bush administration’s top dogs are fascists, but they are not Nazis.
“GMC, I knew Mike Godwin (sorta). I argued with Mike Godwin.
You’re no Mike Godwin.”
Cute, Rage, pointless, but cute. And you then proceed to make my point for me. Thanks.
Your point being, apparently, that you disagree that this administration is fascist, and thus regard discussion of it as out of bounds. It is hardly an indefensible claim (outrageous, documented facts abound to support it), but you’ve decided it’s outside the bounds of thinkable thoughts.
But back to the MO thing: What you usually do, GMC, conciously or otherwise, is focus of the emotive part of a post, invariably ignoring the substance. If fact, there doesn’t even need to be an emotive part; if it simply reaches a conclusion YOU regard as too extreme (warranted or not), the facts become unworthy of discussion, so you sniff and try to turn it in a meta-debate about the posts themselves, again, ignoring the substance of what was actually said.
You see what you want to see, Rage.
Certainly, I’ve not weighed in in the “substance” of this thread. Didn’t think it was necessary. I get into substance in other places, of course, but you choose to forget that.
Oh well. Limbaugh’s comment was mean, and stupid. Certainly MJF has the right to support any candidate he likes, for any cause he supports, and this one is obviously dear to his heart. One can legitimately oppose parts of this research (and I’ll not get into that) but doing that kind of personal attack in doing so is uncalled for.
Satisfied?
But this thread has been remarkable not for the substance of posts, but for the particularly nasty writing of the posters. And I’ll not shut up to make you feel better.
. . .and when did I ask you to shut up?
Just an observation.
Yeah that is kinda my take on GMC as well sometimes. You are better than you used to be GMC. But you still come across as seeming to think you are better than everybody else
I note GMC never did really address this thread at all as far as an opinion on Limbaugh.
Just an observation.
I owe GMC an oops.
I opined that he had not weighed in on the thread…..AS he was weighing in on the thread. My bad.
Good to see a more reasonable view on the part of one of our right of the aisle posters. What Limbaugh did was needlessly vile.
to Rage, continued:
And certainly one can disagree about this administration. One can regard their actions as indefensible, illegal, etc. I suppose one could even argue that their policies are a movement toward a fascist state, though I think that’s wildly overstating the case.
But many posters go much farther than that. They argue not (or not only) on substantive grounds, but label writers who may defend the administration on a particular point by simply labeling their opponent as a “fascist” or similar emotionally-laden term, thus dismissing the arguement out of hand by dismissing the opponent. Generally you don’t do that, I’ll give you credit. But many do. We can do better.
Which of my ‘ultra-free’ ideas won’t work? I don’t think I mentioned anything specific. But our free press and our communications systems protected us from bad spinach better than government regulations did.
Of course cities have regulations. And our counties, and states. Our forefathers did not try to eliminate local government and neither do I. I believe its necessary to protect personal and property rights. The danger is when ANY government becomes too powerful. They tried their best to ensure our federal govt wouldn’t.
Well thanks, JR, but I don’t particularly need a pat on the back from you.
Rich – I was being general as to libertarians. Things like land use restrictions for example. These are very “un-free” but are needed when we live so close to each other. Pollution control. When is was many miles between us a lot didn’t matter that does when we are close together.
I have a libertarian bent; however i am also an urban animal. As such we must be much more social.
And, as our population grows many issues transcend state lines – look at the interstate water litigation Atty Gen Stephen did for example. In fact, many of these even transcend national boundaries as pollution from Mexico blows northward into the US and water pollution flows from the US into Mexico.
Much that is ideal simply does not work in an overcrowded world.
i see where the GOP is trotting out its own Hollywood celebrities in a stem-cell commercial of its own… i thought we weren’t supposed to care what celebs think about politics?oh, that’s right, we do but only when they agreeg with our position!!
Wow, I’ve never been promoted to general before, thanks Ben ;-) JK.
Why is Liberty an unworkable ideal?
I live in Pittsburgh PA. We have about a million people in Allegheny county, so I’m far from rural. But neighboring land use issues can be solved under property law, when one’s actions on his property affect the value of life on neighboring property. A loss occurs and can be argued in court. Some laws clarify the understanding of these issues, and some cloud them, usually to the advantage of corporations or existing business entities over new entries into the market, or over individual neighboring land-owners or rights-holders. Property law should be able to handle almost any case, since someone’s property loses value in each case. The differences over history have been the arguments our knowledge of environment and science have afforded. America’s legal system is currently better than any other State in the world at negotiating these issues.
I’m not against laws prohibiting theft. But in a society without such a law, one could first build a strong home with a strong door. Then arm one’s self. Then if they still get away with something, there will be a court or forum for complaint. And in a small or large town, a news story or civil conviction of B&E/theft is still going to elicit contempt from the other good people of the town. My guess is most people just underestimate how many of their neighbors are part of the good part.
Truly, a government creates paper pockets of protection that find themselves unable to stand on their own without such protection, when the real world would create systems through competition that are inherently stronger. I admit I am a bit of an anarchist (dirty word?), but if anarchy is merely a society without a State, then it seems to work ok for the birds and squirrels… Ok, I think I hear the nuts rolling in… almost time for this one to roll out.
On this issue, its clear that freedom reigns, especially in the hearts of ESC-research supporters. Michael freely spoke his mind. So did Rush. So did many of us. And all of us judge all of us.
Just in case anyone missed it, I said I felt Rush was mean and hypocritical. I finally saw the videos within Keith Olberman’s piece. I don’t find anything wrong with what MJF said. Or with what Rush said. That’s right. Rush has a right to speak his mind, and many will consider him an idiot for exercising that right. But no one could have made as many people believe Rush is an idiot as Rush has.
BTW, sorry I got so off-topic. There really is a lot of good discussion among some intelligent people here, in between all the kids picking fights over emotions and nothing. Thanks. Click my name.
Sorry. PLEASE (didn’t mean to sound rude ;-) click my name, and read the (long) story called “What Was Wrong With the Old World?” by Rose Wilder Lane for an insight into some fundamental differences between the American philosophy based on Liberty, versus the old-world philosophies based on Authority.
Rich – what part of Pittsburgh? I lived out in Murrysville for three years.
I grew up in Penn Hills, came back after 6 years in the Air Force. Two of those had me in Saudi Arabia for Desert Storm. Worked in Monroeville Mall selling phones for a few years (Sprint), have a few friends from Murrysville – v nice suburb. Live in City of Pgh now.
Pittsburgher’s are EVERYWHERE! When I went to tech school after basic, there were 4 other friends from my high school there too. Half our comm/nav shop at my permanent station was from PA, it seemed. When I was in Spain I met a woman from guess where – Penn Hills.
Take care, Ben. Keep the ‘Burgh with you! We’re all family.
GO STEELERS! My son was born at West Suburban in Monroeville – after we hot rear-ended on the way to the hospital. I definitely keep the ‘Burgh.
You ever drink Old Frothingslosh? The beer with the head on the bottom? (Bottled by Pittsburgh Brewing – a spoof label)
That’s what you remember first, huh? Lol, yeah that’s been around since before I was a little kid, I think. At least I remember learning that wonderful name when I was a kid – its so fun to say – OLD FROTHINGSLOSH!
Many memories. Going hunting up NW and having my garden decimated while I was gone – by deer! Concerts in Point State Park. Rocky Horror in a little theater by U Pitt. Little ‘family-type’ bars in Murrysville and Pitcairn. Four seasons. Unfortunately, also the demise of Gulf Oil.
Hey GMC70, I’ll take you on in saying that the current admin in DC aren’t yet bad enough to be Fascist.
I appreciated your specific definition of the term and will use it to say that not only is GW and co Fascist but that we as a nation have come to accept Fascism unblinkingly in our society.
Fascism”it refers to the private ownership of public goods”
We don’t even question whether Healthcare or Prisons or Elections Should be private or public care.
case 1:) As for health care, no other first world country anywhere except for us(US get it) looks at health care as a privelege like a car or a Yaht only the US. The healthcare in the US is a disaster 40 million without it (FORTY MILLION about 1/6th of the population doesn’t have it), the cost of what we do have is astronomically high compared to what everybody else is doing and we’re like at the bottom of the list of developed nations in life expectancy birth rates and other such)
case 2: Private ownership of prisons has severely raised the penalty for incarceration so that it is 4 x longer for the same crimes as 20 years ago while simultaneously lowering the effectiveness of prisoner reform. Why, it’s more profitable for the prisons to get more folk in them and to keep them longer than to reform them.
We’ve bought into the lies that allow this crap to continue and have actually adopted Private ownership of public good quite well wouldn’t you say?
“the consolidation of governmental power”
One party has been ascendent in all three branches or Government and that Party has used this influence as well as his signing statements to interpret the laws sidestepping any possibility of being checked. I saw references in that argument between you and CF above that speak very clearly to this.
“and the employment of sophisticated propaganda techniques aimed at suppressing dissent and asserting social and political control.”
I don’t know if anyone saw this video; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_G70Dg4bkI&NR, but the insinuation that the Reps have been actually using terrorist videos as tools to terrorize the American people (into voting for them) with nasty commercials (appealing to racists sentiments in Tennessee, and our fear of a nuclear bomb here) and from how he defines the true nature of a terrorist threat “To fill or overpower with terror, terrify, coerce with intimdation or fear”
These tactics have accounted for both presidential victories at the polls (as well as stolen elections on tampered software and privately tabulated votes (the tabulators are Republican owned companies another public right being handled by private interests)).
Sorry for my poor grammar in the above post, I just wanted to get it out, I just throw my mess out there and rewrite a few times to get it right, but you get the idea.
Hey this only my second day here, but I love this place. I just ignore the ignoramuses who seem to fall disproportionately on the right side of things and zoom in on the good stuff. This is a vibrant exchange and demonstrates our Democracy at it’s best, engaged people expressing their ideas and learning from each other and growing.
AWESOME!
aDemGood post.You are doing just fine and welcome to posting!
Don’t sweat GMC too much. He’s a bit of a stuffed shirt. Hey you can read I tried to give the guy credit. He snarled and snapped at my hand. He’ll give me, you and everyone an opportunity to kick him in his short pants soon enough.
I’m still waiting for Rhonda or Paul F Rosell to show us that Rush apologized. Certainly he has a few apologists here. It is not the same thing.
What a freaking joke, parading sports stars and celebrities out to disrespect MJF.And complaining about 6 mill in funding?Take a good long hard look at what the GOP has WASTED BILLIONS on.Hell, Sammy Brownback, through his spot on the all powerful appropriations committee procured 10 million dollars for the failed, and subsequently closed, KAAP in Parsons. 10 mill for a plant that was closed by unanimous vote with no discussion. And NO discussion of what this 10 mill is for!!!6 million does not mean this is failed research. If that’s the reasoning, then every tax dollar ever spent on research up till the point of a breakthrough was ALL WASTED. It was only that very last dollar that did the trick!!!HA. Lying liers and more lies.Why are these people even qualified to speak on the issue?Another dispicable low blow.A baseball player bloviating about scientific research. SHEESH.
And GMC, It’s plain as the huge nose on my face that private corporations OWN our Congress and legal systems.Fascism, plain and simple.
Aw, y’all give fascists a bad name!!
;-)
Seriously:
Dem4sure-
1. As you put it, one party is in control now (at the federal level) for a simple reason, and it’s called democracy. DUH. Elections matter. The R’s won. Period. If the polls are right, in a short time, that may change. Is this still a fascist state then? DUH.
2. Private ownership of public goods. That presumes that the examples you cite are in fact “public goods.” Prisons perhaps; I’m no great fan of private prisons, but they’re not nearly the boogieman you make them out to be. Sentences are long because legislatures (there’s that election thing again) make them that way. As to health care, I’d dispute that it’s a public good. We may want to make it so, and there may be good reasons to make it so, but there is nothing inherent in health care that makes it a public good. I’ll not here, at this point, get into a health care debate, however. Another time, another topic.
3. Propoganda – another “free speech for me, but not for thee.” BOTH SIDES DO IT!! You just phrase it as “propoganda” when you disagree with it. It’s kinda like lobbyists – the ones I agree with are serving the public interests; the ones I don’t like are “special interests.” Well duh, they’re ALL special interests – that’s why they lobby!
4. consolidation – yea, CF gets in panties in a wad over relatively little. Again, power is “consolidated” because elections matter. The signing statements is a mountain/molehill thing. And I’d take what a columnist for the Boston Globe says (yea, I’ve read the article) with a very large grain of salt. Not a lot of credibility there, in my opinion. Mostly a lot of crying wolf.
5. “Stolen elections?” Serious charge – prove it. You raised it, you have that burden. You can’t prove it, of course. You simply hope the mud sticks.
6. And Tracy, don’t like how your Congresscritter votes? Think he’s bought? I suggest a simple solution – vote him out. OF COURSE big business lobbies Congress. You would too, and probably do, as a member of one organization or another. Yes, most of us are a member of a “special interest.” But then, whether one is a special interest depends entirely on who’s doing the accusing.
Use of the term “fascist” in this way deprives the term of any real meaning. It diminishes those who fought and died to dismantle the real thing some 60 years ago.
Way to go GMC. You laid it out nicely. Stolen election. HumbumThe NEA and the NRA are both lobbys. Paid for by members who believe in what they stand for.Your lobbyist is evil, mine is a saint? HumbugLiberals- Humbug
WOW HOTLICKA real opinion.And a good one, wether I agree or not.And GMC, just basically saying thats the way it is won’t work for me. Not only vote the bums out, but do everything we can to get some ethics back on the hill.Ain’t gonna happen overnight, is it?But we must try.
1. and 5. If the elections aren’t fair what’s the difference between being elected unfairly for two terms when you shouldn’t have won 1 and then your successor being elected unfairly who shares your values or for that matter your house and your senate members being elected unfairly to keep your majority? The appearance of that (which is in fact that!!) is Fascism my friend. This goes far beyond conspiracy theories. How much have you looked into the elections of 2000 and 2004? What happened in Florida was a crock of lukewarm SH** and a slap to black folk. Essentially, if you happened to have a common name like Mark Johnson or Mike Jones and lived in democratic counties you showed up to caste your vote and were told you were ineligible to vote even though it wasn’t true. The number of folk purged from those roles was far greater than W margin of victory. There’s so much info about it, that it’s mind numbing (read http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334/was_the_2004_election_stolen for the sordid details of the deception in the 2004 election, unbelievable!). The probability of the exit polls being so wrong in both elections in only electronic districts(this has never happened historically and all of the experts were at a loss to explain it and for God’s sake we have used exit polls in third world countries to validate the quality of their elections but here if things go afoul we’re ready to invalidate them), the fact that every disparities went for the reps, the software/machines with no paper trail produced by a company that has always supplied a paper trail for banking transactions, the fact that these machines were owned by a republican in power and who guaranteed victory for the reps. Blackwell in Ohio (who should have his African American card revoked) makes Katherine Harris look like honest Abe. The only thing missing this time around (2004) is the sense of outrage (typical of repressed, un or under-informed, demoralized folk. Electronic Voting reform has been written to deal with this, but after the fact legislation sucks when you’re subjected to years of incompetent and destructive governance. Frankly I’ve been stunned at the lack of outrage, truly America has fallen asleep on this or is just dejected. The bottom line is we need to get the private companies and their doctored software out of the business of running, determining and profiting from our elections. You let the evidence of what you read in that article sway you (or not).
2. Legislatures that determine sentencing have a lot of private prisons lobbying for longer incarceration periods dude. There in lies the problem. The goal of public good are different than the goals of private enterprise and it is an exercise of immorality for them to be governed as such. Prisons should remove freedoms where those freedoms are abused and rehabilitate where possible. Bit the mandate of privacy is profit and prisons are profitable when they’re occupied and it serves little good to their goal of profitability to rehab their prisoners even if it is better for the society. I think you’re dead wrong on health care. Every other first world nations looks at health care and says if you have a pulse and you’re human you should get health care if you need it. No other first world nation is even having a debate on this (Neither are we! We just have concluded that it is a privilege for you to have health care and NOT a right). Our private health care that leaves out over 40 million people, is easily the most expensive in the world and leaves us 25th in the world in quality of health care among those first world nations who think health care is a right and not a privilege. All this while profit margins (in insurance are in the 20% range year after year). That my friend is a conflict of interest that is intolerable. Specific behavior of intolerability would include the whole refusing to ensure folk with pre-existing conditions because it wipes out your profitability. Crap, crap, crap!
3. This is not just politics as usual negative adds. Dude we’re talking about the republican party using the terrorists message to scare people into voting for them (at the expense of rational thought). That goes to the very nature of terrorism, right? The tactic has worked like a charm in recent times and as far as I know, are exclusive to the Republicans and have worked very effectively. Stuff like Willie Horton and that shameless add in Tennessee (between Ford and Corker that anybody with half a brain knows is meant to invoke the racism that lurks just below the surface down there in the south, that’s all Republican territory. The democrats have been the ones characterized as weak for not fighting back enough using these type of tactics. It’d be akin to a boxer going into a BOXING match choosing not to do whatever it takes to win (bite, kick in groin choke, etc…) and the other guy not having those same convictions. It’s a message of fear, polarity along old wounds of racism that simply aren’t in step with a message of progressiveness as we advance into the twenty first century. Oh can you tell me who lobbyists are for poor folk or the middle class for that matter?
4. It does seem that this president has not let petty thing such as checks and balances (even though there have been few for him with Reps in control of it all, his agenda is radical enough to get him in trouble with centrist in his party) get in the way of the pursuit of his agenda. In the name of terrorism he has done pretty much whatever he wanted and been it seems surprised that folk don’t roll over on it all running towards the conflict as if nobody will oppose him. I’ll give this to him, he is committed to his view of the world, stubborn as an ox, as if God himself told him that the opposition isn’t worth addressing. Perhaps thats the nature of his incuriousness (a characterization by Al Gore).
It’s hard to say if you’re right or I’m right about the word fascist. Do you think instead it would better said fascist tendencies? I could go for that. Or are we really all just frogs relaxing in a pot of water heating on the stove and can’t even see where thing are headed if we “STAY THE COURSE?”
Look everybody whose done any kind of reading at all about these incompetent clowns who have been termed the neo-cons cannot question that the vision they had of our country some 15 years ago have been pursued relentlessly since they came to power. Just cause we’re not there yet (do you question that the end result of Neoconisism (is that right?) is a fascist state? Not what they idealize but based upon the current results of their actions), is that why you back off the term? Does it have to be fully realized Fascist state or can someone whose pursuing (or whose actions are resulting in) it be called a Fascist.
ADopeforSure:Blah blah fucking blahBack to the stolen election?Ralph Nader stole your election.Tennesee stole you election.Revoke Blackwell’s African American card? What does that mean? Is that code?Al Gore used Willie Horton before anybody else did.Doctored software? Put on a tinfoil hat.Kumbaya, dope.
GMC do you think Hitler was just able to instill fascism into his government overnight? How do you think so many people got brainwashed into believing their country could do all of those things and get away with it, that it was the noble action?
It happened piece by piece, little by little. If you read much of the PNAC, their tools they and the republican party use are EXACTLY like the process that Hitler used. Taking the liberties away from the OTHER people was fine, because it didn’t matter to them, it wasn’t going to affect them…till it was too late.
GMC70,
Yeah, what ADemForSure said!
Beyond that, I don’t think you’ve refuted any of my central claims, particularly the ones regarding the assertions of Presidential perogative relative to both signing statements and to the claim of ‘final authority’ to decide the meaning of the Constitution. Signing statements are aren’t new to Bush, though his use of them is new; the second claim IS new.
GMC70, there’s a difference between ‘articles’ and ‘columns’ that appear in a newspaper: the first are factual, the second reflect opinions. That’s a pretty slippery move of you to call the Globe article a ‘column’ in order to discredit it. More to the point, Mr. Fancy-Pants prosecutor, you’re going to need to give an ARGUMENT that’s SUBSTANTIVE as to why you don’t think the President’s claim of authority to override the Supreme Court is a big deal.
Frankly, given your dismissive and evasive comments, I judge that you don’t understand the issue. Show me some substance and prove me wrong.
hotlick,
Go back to your basement; Karl Rove wants somebody to sodomize, and he’s been calling for you.
I don’t have to take that. I am the authority here. This wall is here and I will piss on it when and as much as I please so NYAH! Go get me a donut BIATCH!
CF:
“Go back to your basement; Karl Rove wants somebody to sodomize, and he’s been calling for you.”
I rest my case. You’re done.
Tracy:
You’re right; voting the bums out is only a start. But ultimately it always comes back to just that; structural reforms will NEVER work. People who want to be corrupt (in BOTH parties) will do so, no matter what the law.
Of course, that means that the public has to pay attention. It also means that reasonable people will disagree as to just what is in the “public interest.”
Yes, we have to try. On that we agree. If the 2nd bum goes down the same path, don’t be afraid to find a third. Or do it yourself.
Political Mom,
I lost my liberal playbook. Can you tell me which play explains how to compare Republicans to Hitler? I want to be prepared for the next time I have no real argument and need to fall back on an old useless liberal standard. Thanks!
“I rest my case. You’re done.”
GMC, I guess it was easier for you to respond to that (even though it wasn’t directed at you) than this:
“Frankly, given your dismissive and evasive comments, I judge that you don’t understand the issue. Show me some substance and prove me wrong.”
Which WAS directed at you.
Oh well.
Hey CF, GMC70’s right, don’t sink to hotlick’s level (even though I did it yesterday right?) at least not offensively so (there I’m off the hook), it will steal your chance at continuing the debate.
Hotlick, I didn’t know Gore used Horton first. Is that true? Shame on him. I guess if you play this game long enough, you end up doing everything even things you said you wouldn’t and he “has been “(get it) a life long politician.
Actually, I think it’d be really cool if Gore ran again. Something makes me feel like he’s uniquely qualified to get us moving back in the right direction (due to the 2000 debacle, he might have a kind of manifest destiny and wouldn’t it be cool for Dubya to grow old seeing all of his wonderful work undone by one of the first people he fuc**** er um… defeated on the national stage.)
GMC70, I’m not a lawyer and as I look back at what I’ve written I see a bunch of imprecise statements (case in point, not in the name of Terrorism, should be in the name or guise of defending us from terrorism, actually, maybe that one was Freudian…) that probably look like potholes to guys like you and CF, but I hope I am getting my points across.
And back to the point.Limpballs should be flogged for making fun of MJF.
I think you are doing fine aDem. Like I told you before, GMC kinda fancies himself. I think he sometimes spends too much time with dusty old booksSpirit of the law does not seem to be his forte. He is a parser of words. He just needs to take himself a little less seriously.The pig Limbaugh is STILL clinging to his position. Today he is crying “Woe is me they are trying to destroy me! The left doesn’t get to do that. The left doesn’t get to define me! The left doesn’t get to tell you what to do anymore! That’s what I’m here for! You love me remember?! It is us against the mean left! Waaaaaaaaaaah!
Back to the topic…
http://www.wbbm780.com/pages/115716.php?contentType=4&contentId=230846“Fox told Couric, “At this point now, if I didn’t take medication I wouldn’t be able to speak.”…Fox told Couric that even though it’s tough for him to sit for interviews as his symptoms worsen, he feel privileged to be able to do so.”
ADem,
“Hotlick, I didn’t know Gore used Horton first. Is that true?”
Nope! And don’t trust hotlick. As I posted on ‘gaming google’ thread, Bush Sr (June ‘88) was first to use Horton.
Horton myth debunked near end of,
‘JUST LIKE AL SAID! Russert pushed them RNC points. Somebody go wake Fred Barnes!’ http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh120202.shtml
Hotlick, Ken Blackwell who is AA and the republican secretary of state oversaw the debacle in Ohio in 2004 that disenfranchised other AA, and it’s a shame.
I think he and people like him (Condi, Clarence, and the like…) should have their AA cards revoked. It should be something done publicly and symbolically by the NAACP kind of life the “You are Dead to Me” casket for family members of Jews who step out of line in their families.
Really, something like that would be in poor taste, but it’s a fun thing to say in a blog like this.
GMC70,
Be a man: prove your case. Don’t use hot-man-on-man-lick as a convenient excuse.
Yes the topic…
I just wish something would actually happen to Limbaughclown when he says something like this.
All the time folks get fired because they say insensitive things that are hurtful. It usually happens in the context of someone who is reasonable and well liked and then some nasty thing comes out and makes them look like they’re harboring some really wierd left or right of center ideas that are intolerant or outrageous.
The fact that this pathetic bastard’s lives in the sphere of intolerant, outrageous and is neither reasonable nor well liked (well unless you’re far right of center in which case he’s idolized) and still has the ability to shock anyone with his vulgarity shows just how far he went.
But it’s good for ratings, so I guess Fox will slap him on the hand if they even do that. Remember profitability is more important than substantive opinion or civility or any other tenet of society.
After all shouldn’t profit be the motive of all people things and institutions. Everything else should be subordinated to Mamon.
Cosmos, Russert is a monster interviewer, I mean he plays the devils advocate as if he were the devil himself and he’s tough on everybody. I don’t see favoritism with him on either side.
I think in the case of Kerry’s interview, I would rather think he gave him a chance to debunk the backwards logic of calling not re-instituting a tax cut as raising taxes rather than reiterating speaking points for the other side.
But the Rep’s have owned the tax word since Reagan came on the scene and have relentlessly defined it and the dems live in their world here.(I can understand their attn to detail on that one, I was stunned to see tax rates of 70, 80, and 90 percent in that era.) Hey I believe in progressive taxation as opposed to the regressive 15% for the richest and the 30% that the middle class can pay max now, but those numbers truly were astounding to me when I saw them. I don’t think we should ever go there again. This is why an outrageous claim by RNC (and pervasive, i mean like ubiquitous ignorance in the US of A) could get legs.
Dems have to redefine taxes as something the benefits the people. They need a slogan How about “Taxes: an investment that ensures the Life, Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness.”
It would be if childcare for working moms was free or subsidized, or health care was reformed, or education was fixed at the primary levels and made free through college.
How about “be responsible, pay as you go” and label the Republicans “deadbeat borrow-and-spend bingers”
S&M, I love how you diverted everything I said as a simple attack. Try actually proving how these abuses of power won’t be turned against you down the line.
Because it’s not just me comparing Bush to Hitler, it’s not. It’s far deeper than that, it’s the same policies and tactics that Hitler used, so tell me how you can trust the government so much to do the right thing without oversight?
I see that my troll friend is back. I don’t understand his preoccupation with piss, but I will take a donut, please, without the piss.
How about “you make more money than me? prepare to be taxed to death and kill economic growth.”
Political Mom,
For twisting my name around to something “funny”, I shall do the same to yours. You are now “political skanky whore”
and oh yeah, I’ll get started right away trying to prove that negative you suggest….give me some time on that.
ahahahaha, you’re F-Funny. Not!
“everyone else is doing it, so why can’t I?” Good one. Sheesh, you really a mom? That the kind of thing you teach your kids?
Hey goober, you’re the one with the ID you HAD to know were going to be taunted like that, get over it, you’re certainly not the only one I’ve got pet names for.
Hey asshole.S & M was coined as sarcasm.Your whore comment is over the line.It ain’t funny.
Yep, mine was sarcasm as well. Can’t you tell?
yeah political skanky whore, even if it were true, just really isn’t very funny.
Now some like to taunt me with the name PEE mom, and that’s kindof funny. Grow a sense of humor.
I agree, mom, the peemom thing was fine.If ya’ can’t play this little game of “yo’ momma” without crossing the line then you get called on it.
it was funny to me just like yours was funny to you.
Oh my, I’ve been called. Get over yourself. You don’t own this little blog.
Calling ANY female that name here is not funny, or acceptable.
You are a coward and more.Pretty funny calling women nasty names huh?There are people who DO own the blog, and they won’t put up with it either.You wanna be billigerent, but you ain’t man enough.I can’t see how you justify saying that to this woman.
Oh, so people can call me and others names but I cannot? You set those rules here Tracyboy? “You wanna be billigerent, but you ain’t man enough” What you mean there Tracyboy? Aren’t I being beligerent enough for you?
At least I’m a man.Not some coward calling ladies dispicable names.I’ll be your huckleberry.My email is live, my name is real.What about yours, coward?
So putting your “live” email address here makes you manly? Wow, pretty low standards for being a man by you. Go ahead and email mine. It is as “live” as any email address here. I see your email address here. Who cares? What does that prove there Tracyboy? Anyway, I didn’t call her a name. I was being sarcastic, remember?
A live email that hides who you really are scumbag?
Why don’t you tell everbody who you are?They already know who I am.
Oh bullshit. Whenever you people that don’t like what someone says you always trot that old line out. “tell me who you really are!” Sure, right. Tell you what, you go get the “real name” of everyone else here first and then I’ll give you my “real name”. What the hell does it matter? I could put whatever name I wanted here to make it look like a “real name”.
Unghhhhhhh Unghhhhhhhhh!Who bad? Unghhhhhhhhhh! I shit bigger than any of you unghhhhhhhh!
I’m talking about who ya’ are in the real world.I want everyone to know.I could care less what your screen name is.
BTW, I already know the others real names. They freely shared them with me.Hank Price is real.Steven Davis is real.Mary Caruso is real.
Now enough of that.
You wanna call some woman that name as long as we don’t know who you are.Coward.
hotlick–you bad!!as annoying as you enjoy being, I haven’t seen you stoop to that low.I love a good sarcastic spat.Not a coward calling ladies names.
Prove that I called her a name for real. Prove that it wasn’t just sarcam like hers. Come on Tracyboy. Giving your real name on any blog is just foolish.
WOW! Boy has this thread gotten nasty – on both sides.
Hey everyone, how about taking a breather and cooling off a bit? ON BOTH SIDES!
Tracy-The post from 3:45 is from Fake Hotlick. I didn’t do it. If it’s the same person, they are into pee and poop. I don’t understand it, but to each his own. I don’t understand your reference to calling women names. I’m not above that, but I haven’t done it lately.It doesn’t matter if one’s email address is live. After reading the lib hatred, I can see why one wouldn’t. Mines live, but it doesn’t matter. I sure as hell wouldn’t use my real name tho.”You people” are some crazy motherfuckers.
I think it is unfortunate when we start calling people names. I have been guilty of it more than I would like to admit.
That being said, when some people call you names, it is really a gift. It is a gift because you can take it as a clear and unambiguous sign that one is on the right track.
I would say the above occured here today. Keep on course, political_mom!
addendum – the type of trolling done to hotlick does nothing to elevate the discussion
I think this would be another version of a Godwin Bomb.
Of course you are right, Ben.I don’t know who is the Fake Hotlick, but whoever it is is one of the famous “you people”.I still say bring it!
There. See how much attention I got to the problem of people calling people names? To that I say “mission accomplished”.
Okay getting back to substance SM.
Hey SM I got a bit of news for you. The word middle-class is bandied about all over the net especially in political circles. And everybody thinks they have the answer as to how to make it strong or get it stronger.
Well that middle class didn’t exists until FDR came on the scene and willed it back into existence with LIBERAL DEMOCRATIC POLICIES (do I hear a collective hiss from the conservatives). Sherman anti-trust and other similar laws, progressive taxes, social security, etc… The New Deal. This in response to 50 years of desolation as business controlled government and set the rules for themselves to maximize profits (sound familiar) creating a feudal system here (via control of the railways) that finally collapsed under the weight of the Robber Barons who started implementing these policies in the early 1880s.
Those same liberal democratic policies sustained and strengthened the middle class for 40 years. Then Reagan got in and began dismantling it.
Again the economy has done well, but it’s done well almost exclusively for the well to do. The middle class is on the ropes and many on the lower end of that middle class have drifted toward the poverty level. For the middle class we need to get the tariffs back (Clinton gave up the chance to have a great legacy when he allowed the WTO to govern our tariff laws). Quite frankly my opinions of his accomplishments have been severely diminished by his participation in this debacle.
OK, dope.
That’s just fantastic, ADemForSure.
It seems you too are one of the “everybody thinks they have the answer as to how to make it strong or get it stronger.”
You mention Reagan…God how I miss Reagan.
Sm,
Yeah, me too. Every man should let a woman run things.
Oh and by the way, instead of saying the “economy has done well” I should’ve said “the economy was given the appearance of doing well ” meaning that the really rich people got fabulously richer and the Reagan Government hid their “voodoo” trickle down crap economics behind borrowing of money from SS trust fund and other places that they didn’t have to report as such on the books. So if you consider an economy where rich become ultra rich while the middle class loses steam, the poor become poorer and that group grows, millions more are off of health care, and the government runs massive deficits year after year (til Clinton gets in and balances the budget), then we’ve been doing fabulously.
Huh?
Well, I was “poor”, then middleclass and now I guess “rich”. I moved up under Reagan and through the current times. It isn’t that hard if people apply theirselves. And, somehow, I did it without any government help. Heck, would have happened quicker without their “help.”
Hey SM just remember every time you mention the words “middle class” (or word if you hyphenate) that the middle class was created by, thrived, and grew in every statistical category as a result of the policies established by FDR the greatest president this country has ever known. He kicked ass at home and on the road and Conservatives like you can’t refute one bit of it.
This is the reason why GW and crew want walmart schools that train you to work at their stores and not read or use your brain.
The statistics are irrefutable and the truth of what I’m talking about would make Karl Rovian (think Pavlovian) spin that mesmerizes the ignorant here just another easily dismissed parlor trick driving a stake through the heart of conservatism and relegate it to the annals of failed idealogy where it belongs.
There simply isn’t a viable historical example of it being sustained and leading to anything other than Feudalism (which since recorded history has pretty much defined this world’s Governments and Empires).
So you got anything relevant to say or are we in for more insults about farting and mamma jokes and such?
Hey SM, I’m pretty talented too, and I’ve done just fine for myself, but a good life isn’t just for the strong or the lucky or the fearless, our fathers thought it could be for everybody and we know exactly how to do that and we’ve in fact done that before.
The policies that gave rise to a vibrant middle class don’t sap smart lucky and strong folk from their incentive to do well, it just makes sure that we all can have a shot at life liberty and the pursuit of happiness
Come on November 7.
Thanks Steven Davis and Tracy. Wow talk about a whiner my god.
Hey, you got anything against a little S&M anyway? (that’s a joke).
I love it when the few that ‘make it’ point fingers at the ones who don’t have the same opportunities as they do as being weak or lazy or whatever. If the playing field were more even. By the way, Clinton had less poverty and Reagan had the most under their watches. So in retrospect, it was CLINTON’s administration who allowed the poorer to better manage their own lives and not be a drag on the system than Reagan. But it’s always the Reagan supporters who say it’s their own faults. I guess those poor white trash just cleaned themselves up for 8 years on their own?
Pee mom and DopeForSure-(Not being insulting, I just think it’s funny. Feel free to reciprocate)I love your passion, but I don’t think you can back up what you are saying regarding more poor, less poor. The middle class is sucking, etc. I thought that more Black Americans are buying homes than ever before, people making X amount of $$ is more than ever, etc. More people are starting there own biz. What you say, I think, goes against what is really happening. Are we not collecting more tax revenues because of the tax cuts? Like what happened with the Kennedy and Reagan tax cuts? The fact that my boys (the Repubs) are spending like drunken sailors, is something else altogether.
well, hot licky-dick (lol)
I know what the stats say, but ya know I just don’t feel this big fabulous economy. Finding work is brutal. I’d just really like to feel as secure and be as secure as I was in the late 90’s.
The cost of everything seems so much higher, and we don’t make as much.
We seem to have got off topic. I know Rush sure wishes this would go away. He is finally being revealed for the piece of filth that he is.
Speaking of pieces of filth. “SM”? You are “rich” and you’ve nothing better to do than attack a mom? Clearly you are not “rich” in character. You may be very nervous about “keeping yours” and it would seem at the expense of everyone else. Most likely you “made it” off the back of someone else. That would explain the defensiveness and the attitude. Tracy and political mom are known and respected quantities here. I honestly think you are an extension of “hotlick”. I never see one of you without the other nearby. In any case, you are a rank amateur as a poster. Your ally or pal or alter ego hotlick is even poorer and I suspect may even be trolling himself. Gutter talk seems to come from most of the hotlick posts. What a way to earn a rep. as “persecuted” is my guess. Political mom outclasses all one two or three of you.
Lick, Rope a dope over hear responding to your stats theory. Yes Greenspan the architech of the first ss trust fund raid is the master of hiding behind the curtain and manipulating things to give an appearance of growth and stability and such. His keeping the rates low kept us from crashing and burning, but a house is really just a massive bit of debt on your head til it’s paid for.
So just because rates were kept artificially low and home values blew up like a puffer fish allowing people to borrow against that new found “wealth” to buy buy buy and stimulate growth doesn’t mean our jobs are more stable (they’re not), that our wages are keeping pace with inflation or spending (they’re not).
That’s not real growth, that’s imitation growth (can you see me doing foresics on the alien Dog from John Carpenter’s the thing I love that line by Wilford Brimley, “That’s not real dog, that’s imitation!”…I’m tearing up lauging, but I guess, well I guess you had to be there or have seen the movie).
Anywhoo, It’s all just more unsustainable voodoo economics a house of cards waiting to crash.
At some point we have to get out of debt (we the people and our government has to balance the budget and then do that for a while to also get out of debt). With the rapidly deteriorating strength of unions and our ability to control the prices at which we will labor, our wages are being driven lower by the greed of big business free from tarriffs to get labor done over seas at a fraction of the cost and increase their profits. So folk are working harder and harder to pay their mortgages.
Buying a home or having a business is a risk but it’s your risk. The creditor will simply throw whoever cannot pay out and get someone else who can pay in. So many of us are working two and three jobs to do what our father’s alone could do in 40 or 50 hours a week.
Can conservatives not see that big business is hell bent on making everything better for big business and it doesn’t matter if the worker or America or anybody but them gets screwed? These are remarkable times.
Hotlick, you’ve got the right idea.Call me tracysue, spaceytracy, tracyboy, whatever. that’s cool.If you’re fairly new here, you should now that many of us are regulars that have been playing these sarcastic games for a long time with each other. I’ve seen regulars go too far before, and we generally get an apology and we start all over. I’ve done it.IMHO, you can cut like a knife without using words like whore or nigger. Ya’ know SM, a simple oops and a quick I’m sorry would have probably made ya’ one of the gang.I’m more than willing to lay off, if you’re willing to do that.
GMC70,
I agree with many of your points, but fail to see the reasons why you believe the currently elected republicans support them as well? I mean, ok, they like to talk about the same things, but there’s a diff between talk and action, as we’re all aware. And the actions of many current elected republicans fall far from their delcared intent. Lower taxes, sure, but in a land full or tax laws, they decide to lower them most for the few that ‘really’ need them lowered, dead people. I’m not saying you shouldn’t get what your dad worked for when he’s gone, you certainly deserve it more than the government. But there are taxes that arguably are even less just than that one, that could have been reformed FIRST. Sort of like solving health care by putting one old man on the machine and bragging about it while millions of others continue to suffer.
The word ‘fascist’. If the shoe fits… Just because its a hot-button word for you, doesn’t mean that some politicians aren’t acting a lot like fascists. Or even exactly like them. What would you call granting a free drilling monopoly in a national park? Or a similar logging one? The successful drilling and logging companies had to pay for research in the millions to find oil, or plant trees by the thousands to replenish what’s cut down. But SOME just had to spend a fraction lobbying a politician to change the law in their favor.
While its generally true that all trade helps all in the economy, setting a precious resource aside as public, then closing it off to the public, and giving it to your brother-in-law to reap millions from is deceitful and robs everyone.
Finally, remember that the government doesn’t make anything. If it wants to spend dollars, it must first take them from someone who is productive, or expand the money supply, which takes it from all of us. Government can only destroy or re-allocate wealth, it can’t create it, no matter what the economic experts say some program will do for us. Every dollar the government gives away came from some person or business who made it legally through its risk and productivity. The government assumes no risk except taking too much from its population. Do you feel that as long as the government leaves you enough to eat, that it’s re-allocations are just? How will the government know when its reached that limit? When you’ve starved to death, like in the old-world socialist/fascist states, is that when.
CF: Just look upthread here, and how this has gone; is this your idea of political discourse? Doesn’t matter who the comment was directed to; It’s ridiculous, beneath you and (I would hope) most here. And I won’t engage it. Or you. You’re done.
Rich:
This thread is not about the estate tax, so I’ll not get sidetracked (too much) there. It is usually refered as a tax bread for dead rich white guys, and sure, it can be so characterized. But the majority of folks who would benefit aren’t the uber-rich at all; rather, they are small family-owned businesses and farms. The value of an estate can far more quickly thatn most of us realize move up into the “rich-guy” realm with a family business or successful farm operation. Certainly, tax planning could help alleviate that. But one of the problems of our current tax system is that too much of the time and talent we have is spent finding ways to conform with (or avoid) a massively complex tax system. If I could design it, would it be different? Sure. We all want a tax system that is “fair.” But I suspect we all have different points of view as to just what “fair” is.
“fascist” Sure, it’s a hot-button word; but only one of many. The problem is that generally those words are not used to further the debate, but to marginalize a point of view and dismiss it’s proponents. NOTHING in the current mainstream of American politics comes even close to such a label; again, argueing otherwise denegrates and cheapens the sacrifices of millions who died dismantling the real thing. I’m not against the word, certainly, or above discussing whether it could apply; not comment to Rage above. But to simply attach it (or other labels) wholesale on those you disagree with is intellectually short-sighted, dishonest, and cuts off real discussion. Frankly, it’s designed to cut off real discussion. And that’s simply wrong.
Gov’t favors are another matter. Businesses and interests who can benefit from gov’t favors will always lobby to do so, no matter WHAT the type of gov’t. Gov’t has always handed out favors to the connected, from the beginniing of time. Has ALWAYS been so, under both parties; hell, the machine Democrats of the previous era made a business of it. In a sense, the current Rep’s are just carrying on the tradition. For big business and the connected, the only thing that has changed is who you lavish your attention on; you lobby to the party in power.
If you’re asking for a way to fix that, I don’t know that I have one aside from the one I suggested to Rage: vote the bums out. If the politicians understand they have more to lose than to gain by granting favors, it may stop. But not until. That’s not a R or D thing, it’s a human nature thing.
I guess my take on the current “culture of corruption” meme is – What else is new. Same game, different players. If we changed parties in leadership, it would then again be same game, different players. It’s not that R’s are more corrupt that D’s; HUMANS are corruptable. And some in power, in either party, will always be so. That why “vote the bums out” – electing people of character and holding them accountable – is ultimately the only solution.
Your last paragraph: I couldn’t agree more. Gov’t is on the whole a consumer, not a producer. And because it does not have to meet the expectations of the market, it is an inherently ineffecient player in that market. Some things it does well; if the goal is to simply redistribute wealth, writing checks is simple and easy. But this is also the home of the $400 toilet seat and $800 hammer. Much of gov’t exists in large part just to perpetuate itself, at enormous cost to all of us who pay. Certainly some goods are “public goods;” but that does not necessarily mean that gov’t should be sole producer of them. Removing market discipline is how you get $800 hammers.
Dem4sure:Sorry hadn’t got back to you, got really busy. I’ve read the so-called “stolen election” accusations. I’ve also read the responses from the pollsters themselves. The “stolen election” is a common popular myth, to be blunt. Lots of hot air, no substance. It is based on the assumption that the pollsters couldn’t possibly be wrong. Please. Again, you made the charge, support it.
As to health care being a “public good,” I just don’t think it is. Certainly health care is a huge problem. But comparing across international borders is vastly misleading and simplistic. This isn’t England, or Norway, or anyplace else. Gov’t as single payer? It’s possible. But remember the $800 hammer – do we really want to put those folks in charge of health care?
JR – “Spirit of the law does not seem to be his forte. He is a parser of words.”
C’mon JR, I think you’re smarter than that. “Spirit of the law” is the chestnut trotted out when one does’t like the law and wants to find a way around it. The law doesn’t live in spirit, it lives in words. Words that have real meaning. Words that sometimes have to be carefully analyzed (or “parsed,” if you prefer). Intent of a legislative act is expressed in the WORDS that it uses, nothing else. Words matter. I’ll stick with them, thanks.
(Patti is Ron and Nancy’s daughter)
By Patti DavisNewsweek
Oct. 25, 2006 – When I was a kid, I was once being teased relentlessly by a bully at school, and I faked being sick to stay home and avoid him. My parents knew I was faking (the thermometer under hot water trick didn’t work) but they also knew something was wrong. My father came into my room to talk to me, and I willingly confessed. He patiently explained to me that the best way to deal with a bully was to totally ignore him—treat him as if he is invisible. Because all bullies really want is attention.I got it right back then. I returned to school, ignored the persistent bully, and he backed off. I seem less able to do that now when a bully by the name of Rush Limbaugh has accused Michael J. Fox of faking the symptoms of Parkinson’s (OK, he actually said “acting”) for political purposes. Fox, who could easily be held blameless if he reacted with rage and vitriol, has exhibited grace and dignity, ignoring the blathering accusations of the radio host and expressing appreciation that, just two weeks before the midterm elections, we are discussing stem-cell research. We could all learn from the way the actor has responded to cruelty; certainly I can.
Fox, stricken with Parkinson’s disease while still in his 30s, has not shied away from public view or expressed any self-pity or anger at the hand fate has dealt him. In fact, he has called himself “lucky”—for the unwavering love of his family, a career he can be proud of and the opportunity to use his fame to bring attention to the miracles that stem-cell treatment holds for people afflicted with many diseases, including Parkinson’s. He has demonstrated courage, generosity and compassion.
Limbaugh, on the other hand, flagrantly broke the law by procuring large amounts of drugs and then escaped the punishment that someone who is not white, wealthy and famous would have gotten. He spends his time insulting people and gets paid handsomely to do so; now we have seen that even those with serious diseases don’t get a reprieve from his cruel bluster. And his apology doesn’t cancel out the nastiness of his original comment.
While I am obviously not ignoring Limbaugh, I am determined to focus more of my attention on Fox, because he is an example of how all of us should live our lives. There will always be cruelty in the world, there will always be bullies. How we respond is what matters. There are loftier goals than mudslinging. The people we will remember years from now are those who kept walking calmly and kindly through the worst mudslinging, who kept their attention on the changes they wished to make in the world and who treated others with compassion even when they were being abused.
Fox could slink away and hide his disease from us—few would blame him. Instead, he is using the misfortune that came his way to try and open doors to a miraculous future—a future in which diseases like Parkinson’s, diabetes, ALS and Alzheimer’s could perhaps be cured. He will be known for that work, as well as for his dignity in the face of insults.
Hopefully, stem-cell treatment will be available in time to cure Michael J. Fox. There are no stem cells, though, that can cure heartlessness. Cruelty is a demon that feeds on itself. Limbaugh’s fate is ultimately the harsher one.
GMC70, OF COURSE health care is a public right and not a privilege.
The conflict of interests are so apparent that I don’t see how you could characterize it any other way.
Here in America, what’s in the best interest of the health care provider easily trumps what’s in the best interest of the patient. and it’s immoral.
How hard do you think it would be to avoid a $800 hammer if we know that something that pre-posterous is a danger?
Efficiency isn’t some kind of hidden trait available only to big business. There are metrics, philosophies, sciences that govern efficiency. It’s a matter of consistently asking the right questions.
This is a myth that lives in our minds transfixed from a report done 30 years ago, and just like the idea that trickle down economics works, it’s absolute nonsense.
Trickle down is a discredited, worthless economic idea that gets plenty of marketing mileage and is still mentioned and believed in by either by the disingenuous, or the mis-informed.
And just like it, the idea that efficiency is only for those in the private sector is so much baloney.
And I’m far from convinced that gov’t is competent to run it. Careful what you wish for, you just might get it.
-True dat
YES GMC70, OF COURSE
Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.
It’s implicit in life part.
If you don’t think that it is, then explain to me what the “Life” in Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness does mean.
In terms of efficiency. How efficient is it have to pay dividends and then executives millions of dollars in salary for their “expertise.” The federal govt spends $2-3 out of $100 in admin costs, the private industry pays $10 – $34 out of $100 in admin, dividends, executive pay, etc…
YES GMC70, OF COURSE
Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.
It’s implicit in life part.
If you don’t think that it is, then explain to me what the “Life” in Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness does mean.
In terms of efficiency. How efficient is it have to pay dividends and then executives millions of dollars in salary for their “expertise.” The federal govt spends $2-3 out of $100 in admin costs, the private industry pays $10 – $34 out of $100 in admin, dividends, executive pay, etc…
GMC70,
The truth of the matter is that no newspaper (owned by big Republican business) would run the story.
It’s massively under reported so as to be seen as a non-issue. If it weren’t for the internet, most would be completely unaware of it.
Concerning the voting: The exit polls was one of many things mentioned in that article. The article talks about so many things implicating fraud and dirty illegal tactics and yet I’ve not seen any rigorous attack of the article of any kind.
Where’s the rebuttal to any of it (not just the polling)?
As long as it cannot get any traction, nobody cares to actually talk about it (so me proving something or disproving it is not only impossible, but irrelevant if nobody cares), cause just as Global Warming is an “inconvenient truth”, so is the idea that our elections are even close to fair.
Like I said before, what’s missing is the outrage. If people allow themselves to be abused then they will continue to be abused until they stand up.
Why do we continually forget the really bad things that have been done already and somehow think that the past doesn’t equal the present or the future.
The failure of our Govt response to Katrina isn’t subject to your or my opinion of it, it happened. The failure of our govt to get us out of Vietnam is reality and it cost our soldiers their lives.
Why is private and vested industry at all involved in the running of our elections? It’s because we allow it by not standing up to it!
Government and business and everybody else in the position of screwing with someone screws with them until they’re forced to stop.
I’ll be frankly surprised if the elections go anywhere near as well for the dems as all of the newspapers are talking about. It’ll only happen if the elections aren’t close. The republicans will win every close race. Their voting software will ensure it.
I am a programmer and I can tell you that it is EASY AS CAKE to build a back door to inflate numbers by some percentage. I can tell you a hundred different ways to do it and hide it. But since it’s proprietary code, we don’t even get the opportunity to inspect it.
The analysis will be done and it will again be concluded that 98% of the people couldn’t have possibly showed up to vote that day for this or that rep candidate and that only 7% couldn’t have possibly shown up in a competing district) then when nobody screams bloody murder, it will once again be dismissed in a long list of “discredited” democratic conspiracy theories.
It only is discredited because nobody cares enough to fight for it, not because it isn’t true.
Well HELLO girl.Windy as hell out here today.
Anyway, what ol’ kia is saying I’ve heard before:”The surest way to be digusted by politics is to have YOUR candidate win.”
Well, I’m SURE that’s true for the ones he’s backed.Me, well, I HAVE NO COMPLAINTS in that area.Sorry KIA.
gmc70 – Can you provide any proof what so ever that the estate tax ewffects small farmers? and if so, then why are the “ultra-rich” doing so much to eliminate it?
Dem4sure:
“GMC70, OF COURSE health care is a public right and not a privilege.”
“Of Course? ”
Really? Just how is that so? Just what level of heath care do I have a “right” to have? Is it based upon my preferences as to the kind of health care, like, say a right of free speech?
A “right” is quite a different thing from a “public good.”
Health care is certainly a problem. Certainly, the current system is anything but efficient. Health care is provided to all now, through the ER if nothing else, and that is far from a efficient way to allocate resources. Hard choices will need to be made.
But it is not inherently a public good. And I’m far from convinced that gov’t is competent to run it. Careful what you wish for, you just might get it.
Don’t think you were part of this conversation, KFG.
You’re still not.
GMC whining about the mean ol’ lefities?
GMC leaving the blog in a huff over civility?
GMC looking down that long nose at the rest of us unwashed posters?
GMC telling someone like CF “That’s it your finished”?
heheheh. I’m shocked, SHOCKED I say.
hee hee hee hee hee hee
GMC’s MO is so predictable it is laughable.
And I see how the right side of this blog is oh so civil and never attacks the poster instead of the message, never calls names, etc.
heheheheheheh
Funny how the prospect of losing control has them doing the same things they whined about the left doing.
Hypocriticial is as hypocritical does.
I love the smell of wingnut desperation in the morning. It offsets the boring and predictable nature of GMC’s knee jerk posts.
GMC70, there’s something up with the postings not appearing sequentially I responded to your OF COURSE with http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2006/10/offensive_rush_.html#comment-24582306which appears above your post and my original one (probably the time change).
And I’m far from convinced that gov’t is competent to run it. Careful what you wish for, you just might get it.
-True dat
Dem4sure:
Your right to life includes a “right” to claim certain resources for yourself? How is that?
Perhaps we’re just talking past each other on terminology.
Rights are inherent; i.e. inalienable; they exist because we exist. They don’t depend on any gov’t to create them (indeed, they exist whether gov’t recognizes them or not), nor do they demand anything of anyone else, save perhaps a certain tolerance of differences.
A “right” to health care DEMANDS that others give up something tangible; a certain level of resources. Now, as a society we may well want to do that. But it is certainly no right, in the same sense as say a right to speech as protected in the 1st amendment.
As to the election stuff: you made the charge, you prove it. Sounds to me like sour grapes to those who lost, or perhaps justification to challenge the legitimacy of the winners if you lose again.
Otherwise, yes, I’ll file this one away under “tin-foil conspiracy theories.”
And yea, I noticed the time mess-up. I got no explanation either.
I think ADem is onto something; posts made earlier today, when I dropped by to lurk, were bearing a time stamp later than the curent time; I suspect, but do not know, that the server’s clock had not yet been reset to CST, but was instead still on CDT; thus, the “out of order” appearance of various post. Now, back to the real world….
The problem is not with parsing words; the problem is with ignoring what that parsing tells you, and not considering the well-documented history of a certain administration repeatedly parsing language to its own liking (in EXACTLY the ridiculous way I demonstrated), and actually IGNORING the written law when it sees fit.
Words indeed do matter.
ELECTION:In detective work when looking for a suspect to a crime, one looks for motive, opportunity and then evidence, right?
The motive is clear: win election by hook or by crook. Your bought politician gets in and makes life better for you.
The opportunity = Inexplicably we have allowed one of our most sacred institutions the right to vote for which men have died or been killed to be governed by private and vested interests in a completely non-transparent way.
The evidence of wrong doing:1. In 2004 80% of the vote was tabulated on machines created by three private companies Diebold, ES&S, and Sequoia.
2. Stunning losses by Democrats several elections in which ALL OF THE POLLS of likely voters pointed to the opposite outcome.
- Hagel in Nebraska: won every demographic including african americans in 96. Nebraska bought electronic voting equipment from the company for which he was the chairman right before he stepped down and decided to run. Results of machine were NOT AUDITABLE.
- Georgia 2002, wide discrepancy in polls where a favored Cleland was defeated by Saxby. Results of machine votes were NOT AUDITABLE
- In 2004 Hastert and Delay BLOCKED legislation by the Democrats from coming to a vote mandating elections machine results be auditable. So while some states had reformed their local election laws to make machines auditable, this was not a federal mandate and again in states where the machines were NOT AUDITABLE, you have these poll fluctuations.
This list could number in the HUNDREDS of situations, anybody who wants to see more go to http://www.blackboxvoting.org/ there are plenty of sites that talk about transparency of voting.
What more can or do I need to say concerning situations like these.
They bear investigation, but really they demand that we the people step in to make our democracy transparent and fair.
One side attempted to do that and the other blocked them from doing that which means they have some advantage they want to keep.
You’re right, Rage.
And the words to which you refer say, as clearly as can be, that the MCA (I’m certain you refer to that) grants statutory authority to commission to try only ALIEN unlawful enemy combattants. It’s in the jurisdictional provision, central to any action by the commission. And the commission’s actions are appealable to the DC circuit, as the statute clearly says.
Whether the administration will follow the law is another matter. You obviously have your own opinion on that. But, in my opinion, after reading the MCA, it simply does not do what many, including Randy in starting the thread, say it does.
Kinda off-topic, I know, so I’ll just leave it at that.
I stand corrected on “right” versus “Good” in the context of what we’re talking about.
I would say that what is good is right to pursue. I’m certain that in both education and in health care you have two worthwhile candidates for overhaul.
To let citizens of our country receive poor quality or zero health care (one sixth of us or about 45 million) because they’re poor while all forms of private health care are recording hefty profits is immoral.
You can call my comparison’s naive if you want, but the statistics that rank us with other first world nations were done by statisticians (presumably those who know how to compare apples to apples) not me.
For what we’re paying it’s crap. I’m sure these stats take into account everyone in the country the insured and the uninsured which would drive the numbers lower.
Again:
Dem4sure, the “evidence” appears to be, gosh, the polls couldn’t be wrong. You’ll have to do better.
Personally, I want voting with paper ballots. That can be counted by hand. Period. If you want to make them scanable (is that a word?) on a computer, fine, but I want a paper record of every vote.
BTW – did you see the recent NY Journal article – dead voters. In NY, it may be accidental. In Chicago, it’s intentional. I’ve said before, and will say again; most democratic opposition to picture IDs for voting is based on one thing: Dems believe that vote fraud works in their favor. Call it the Daley experience.
What with voter fraud and Dems telling people to refrain from voting if they are incapable of voting Democrat, I pretty much think America in general is SCREWED!
Dem4Sure: I agree with GMC70 that health care is NOT a right, not even because we are to be assured of Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. My life is mine. If you try to take my life, my liberty, or my ability to pursue happiness, can you find a valid reason your choice for free health care is more important than my right to choose no health care. If you want discounted, socialized protection, go to an insurance company. Unless you let them lobby your government already. You didn’t, did you?
Which right is more important? One’s ‘right’ to have their health care provided and paid for them by a third party chosen by the government, or one’s right to be free from such burdens?
And if you have even one example of an efficient government program that helps people, please share it.
I would argue that efficiency is pioneered in the domain of the free market, and that government, having market pricing removed from its calculations, also has any incentive for efficiency removed. All they have to do to not fail then, is to avoid starving the population of taxpayers to death, those who actually produce.
What foreign country has the great health-care systems you speak of? Why doesn’t that country have a problem with illegal immigration? Sick people must be dying to get in there (sorry, I couldn’t help myself ;-)
Our forefathers understood the dangers of centralized power. Have we all forgotten? Government will send the tax man to see how much wealth you have, then charge you for his services as if they served you, and as if you were unwilling to be charitable in any situation, leaving only them to this function. How charitable is your government? How charitable should it be with your money? Shouldn’t YOU have the right to choose who gets your charitable donations? Is the government where you are REALLY the best manager of these resources?
Such a point of view reflects the likelihood of a belief in Authority, whether government or God, that provides for one’s needs according to a plan. I thought America was about being free to choose one’s own destiny, not about saving every single living cell without regard to economics (or philosophy) through taxation of every other one living economically.
Hit me up, P-Mom, Dem4Sure, GMC70, or anyone else practiced in multisyllabic responses.
Rich you’re missing the point. “For profit” and “to provide health-care to all” are incompatible goals.
No business owner goes into business to break even or operate at a deficit. And there’s simply not a way to get 45 million people to pay for something they cannot afford and you still make a profit on it (No wait, we could issue 45 million credit cards, suck some more money out of the social security trust fund, stimulate the big business and then call it a good economy like we did in the Reagan Years, yeah that’s the ticket!)
The solution (provide health care to those who can afford it) doesn’t fit the problem (provide health care for all).
Other nations have solved the problem and their stats say that they’re doing a better job than we are, but yet we still have objections cause we don’t want to sacrifice and pay higher taxes for the program.
Perhaps Mit Romney’s solution being piloted in Mass will do it, but we’ve got to solve this thing cause it’s an embarrasment to us as the “greatest country in the world” and an indictment on our ideals that we favor the rich, peon the poor and won’t sacrifice for those in need.
I mean what happened to sacrifice, support of our fellow country men? I don’t think anybody will be writing any books about us in 100 years entitled The Greatest Generation part two or anything.
These clearly aren’t the values of any Christian Society (not that we’re faith based, but the various forms of Christianity form the religious nexus of our country). Even with died-in-the-wool literal bible believing Christians in our white house, the values of helping the poor are given lip service at best.
Dem4Sure: The poor in our country enjoy better health care than the kings of old, so I think we can still call America great even if everyone isn’t guaranteed they’ll never have a medical bill. In fact, it’s our free market that has led to our increased expectations from a productive healthcare industry.
“For Profit” and “to provide health care to all” are certainly NOT incompatible goals. Incompatible is expecting (or forcing) doctors to provide their services without proper compensation, which would be necessary if you force them to provide it for those who are unwilling or unable to pay for the same insurance program a rich person chooses. Would you want to be a doctor under this system? Would a system that forces you to do a job for free (usually called slavery) be compatible with the American constitution or general philosophy of freedom?
The free-market system allows you to socialize the costs of this program, or to decline coverage. Fortunately in America, the doctors making decent livings don’t want to be seen publicly as uncaring individuals capable of saving lives but refusing to do so in certain cases, so they treat even the tough cases they know they won’t be paid for, because it keeps the vast majority of paying customers choosing them instead of their competition. A system like you envision would seem to remove this condition, as well as any incentive for free people to choose to become doctors, which would do what to the cost of medical care if supply-and-demand is real? Lower supply of doctors at lower wages results in less quantity AND quality of care. So now you have to force some people to become doctors. But of course not all students are smart enough to become doctors, so we’ll need systems to fix that problem. And those who can be doctors won’t all want to be low-paid socialist doctors, so we’ll need some system to solve that too. Every ‘correction’ we introduce into the free market requires more, and yet more, future corrections, which culminate in greater inefficiency and losses than our free-market system.
I welcome the arguments, because I know I can’t lose at this. Freedom is our best ally. Those who fight it are either unwilling or unable to learn to make complicated decisions, like a good, free, voting American should.
In addition, our free-market system is the most advanced form of democracy that exists. You vote with each dollar on what is of value to you. If someone provides lackluster service, you can choose not to give them your dollars in the future. Unless they’re paid with tax dollars.