Tired of murderous psychopaths invading schools? Me, too. But I wonder if arming teachers is the best way to prevent such incidents.
Reacting to the most recent spate of school shootings, a state lawmaker in Madison, Wis., says he’ll introduce legislation allowing school personnel to carry concealed weapons.
The measure isn’t likely to go anywhere — there’s a federal law that bans guns on school grounds — but such ideas illustrate the tendency in this country to think complex problems can be solved simply: Just add firepower.
Yes, it’s satisfying to imagine a steely-eyed English teacher pumping lead into a madman — but then, madmen tend to shoot first. We ask quite a bit of teachers already without expecting them to be good with a handgun as well.
Posted by Dave Knadler
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81 Comments
GMC, sounds familiar, huh?
Too much to ask of them?Ask of them what?To have the right, and the means to protect themselves and their students?Certainly that’s way too much to ask of those poor teachers.And I imagined a gung-ho half-crazed ex-marine turned coach and gym teacher doing the madman shooting! HA.Damned whiney libs, anyway.
Wasn’t that federal law struck down? I seem to remember a US Supreme Court case that struck down the federal gun free drug free school zone law.
Julie: bank guards are armed; does this stop a determined robber? Courthouse guards are armed; does this stop a determined armed person from going after a Judge? My point: whether teachers are armed, and that is known, will not, in and of itself, stop someone who is determined to come into a school with a weapon to commit heinous acts.
A great fear of many: while the teacher, e.g., has training, will the teacher forget his/her training and end up further complicating the situation by providing even more weaponry to the bad actor? Even trained police officers, from time to time, are relieved of their weapons and in some cases shot and killed by the bad SOB.
No, I have no perfect answer; but strenghtening security at the door, limiting points of ingress and egress so that the “visitor” must pass by properly trained security personnel is a start. And, yes, the security personnel must be paid by the schools; for among the many dutes and responsibilities we, as a people, have placed upon the schools is the responsibility to provide a safe place for the students.
As long as we have guns and schools there will be shootings in schools. Yes, to end it, by all means, lock the cockpit door; but that means hiring tens of thousands of guards. It’s the old saw, if one life is save, it would be worth it. But that is b.s. and always has been. Life has always had a dollar value. We won’t be paying billions for school guards to stop a handfull of deaths each year.
To put this in perspective, more students are killed on the playing fields than die by violence. As usual, we ignor the real dangers. How many thousands of student athletes are injured for life each year?
Door King, you just hit another of my buttons. Again, I’ll reserve my bloviating for another time, but close with the observation that competitve, inter-scholastic athletics should not be a part of K-12 education; and, yes, I did play high school basketball, which is a part of the reason I feel as I do.
Don’t just arm the teachers; arm the students too. From kindergarten on, weapons proficiency and military tactics should rate up there with arithmetic and social studies, and handgun possession should be mandatory at all times!The only way for the good guys to win is to be badder than the bad guys.
Jed, that’s just plain dumb.
The issue is not about asking teachers to do anything, learn anything or be forced to do anything.
I belive the issue was about giving them the CHOICE to be able to carry a weapon.
If they don’t want to, they dont have to. If they do, they can.
Obviously there will be the appropriate safety courses and what, but when it comes down to it, having an immediate presence of fire power is what stops more people from being killed.
Yes the shooters shoot first, but they don’t know who is carrying concealed and who isn’t nor is there.
It is simply an added measure of protection.
So far, the gun free school zone signs don’t seem to be keeping the guns out of schools anymore than the drug free zone signs do.
If they cant shoot any better than they teach, their dead
Hell, I’m sure Jed is full of it up there, but i betcha in some of the country schools, some of these kids can shoot a hell of a lot better than the guards charged with protecting them…
Tony – if they had packing teachers you would never have made it past Kindergarten!
hithis will never happen.I hope it does,nt then I would fear that the teacher after becoming unstable would do the shooting with a gun they allready have permission to carry.I agree with the sports idea.I still fear what will my d.d. face after school more than what happens in school!I am just glad this never happened in my hometown in the mts. of colo. at deer season or one the schools I attended in western ks. at pheasant season.I was being serious WOW what a shootout that would have been.maybe 30-50 rifles or 50-75 shotguns wow.glad all we had to face was lg. vol.of drugs and lg. scale drinking .I lost more friends in 2 yrs to this than all these shootings combined .TALK TO YOUR KIDS DAILYI think if we can find some good here it is in the fact that these people and their small children have allready forgiven this man and are moving on with their lives.what a very humbling lesson .Kind of makes me feel greedy and weak .Rick
Most school shooters go in expecting or even hoping to die anyway. Very few of them will have second thoughts even if they knew the teachers were armed.
I actually have a kid in school. I don’t want him to see teachers carring guns.
Hey, CapnAmerica, seems your new name-stealing troll is functionally illiterate.
It’s “they’re,” dumbass, and you’re not fooling anyone here. Give it a rest.
Oops, gave him a snack. Sorry, folks.
Just outlaw guns and schools, they both seem to be the reason for the shootings.
Envisioning a pistol-packing, tri-focal-wearing 90 pound English Teacher doesn’ fit my mental picture of a quality education.
I see we are once again bringing in things that are not true about concealed carry.
Your kids will not see the teachers carrying guns, they are concealed.
The guns are not neccisarily there to prevent people from trying to kill, just stopping them from doing even more harm.
hey ski4broke, we should out law postal facilities too than!
GUNS DONT KILL PEOPLE, PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE!
Ask Dick Cheney ;-)
Hey Ben,
That means my kids wont even make it pass Pre-K…
Hum… Interesting conundrum…
I Vote For Arming The Teachers!
Hi Julie, and RIGHT ON!!There should also be stringent screening and thorough training before anyone legally carries a gun at school for this purpose.
You’re right; guns don’t kill, people do. People WITH GUNS!
Hey Jeannie,
I can kill people with all kinds of things, like my Car, a Knife, baseball bat, hammer, rope, etc.. etc.. etc..
So, what? Its just that guns are much easier and take less effort to actually do the deed…
I spose jeannie never drove drunk?
Now no backtalk here ya’ll.Remember, I can kill instantly with my flaming, dragon fart-eating breath!! HA
Handguns hell, give em automatic rifles,plenty of ammo, and no training whatsoever. Then see if the students still want to mess around in class. That 90 pound english teacher just might get the respect he deserves.
I hate public schools! I am surprised that the coconut apostrophe hasn’t chimed in on this topic yet. Homeschool your kinder people.
Viva La Revolucion Blanco!!
Ian,
If i home schooled my kids, i would kill my self…
I couldnt stand to be around my kids for that long…
Tony, if I had home-schooled you that tree in the back yard would be a whole lot healthier!
Tony,
You kinder will be calm little angels if you remove all the refined carbs and simple sugars from their diet, it works. :)
V.L.R.B!!
Interesting.
I would expect many to dismiss the idea out of hand and without thought, and they have. Frankly, I’ll ask what I asked before: Given that, according to the Eagle, some 400 students have been killed in school shootings in the last decade, and given that most schools already do the security measures usually suggested (SROs, locking all but one door, etc.), do you have another realistic suggestion to lower the carnage?
As I said before: I don’t come to the idea lightly or without reservations, and no, JR, I don’t have an ideological agenda here. The alternative is to do nothing.
Are there some additional risks in doing this? Sure, but we know the result of the current policy – some 30-40 kids a year will be gunned down in our schools. Is that acceptable?
BTW – the federal statute specifically excepts one who is carrying lawfully under a state carry law, so the federal statute would not bar this proposal.
So once again: give me a realistic alternative. Put up or shut up. Or concede that there’s not a thing we can do, and our kids are targets. ‘Cause frankly, as to the “gun-free school zone” idea, it’s not workin’ out too well.
GMC – you raise good and valid points. However I still have a lot of misgivings abuot teachers ‘packing’. On the other hand, I really don’t have much to offer other than traditional improver security.
The whole thing is a sad mess.
GMC?
DO you even HAVE a kid in school?
See, I do. And I really have absolutely no fear at all that he will be the victim of a school shooting. To me that would be like worrying about him being injured by a loose circus lion. It just is not a real big problem.
Maybe your intentions are noble. But you dogged determination to arm teachers seems more like just another way to get society exposed to guns every where they go. Why else be so determined?
I wonder …
Secure the buildings better. Check IDs upon entry. Maybe metal detectors. I just don’t know …
It’s sad …
I think of my school days when the biggest campus ’security’ issue was us cutting class to go to Henslers. (I got suspenedd for that once!) And in an Amish area – such security must be alien!
It’s sad …
Okay, a more serious opinion.
I believe if anyone is allowed to carry a weapon in school that is employed by the school district, they should be a CLEET certified or certification equivalent to that state’s requirements.
Anyone taking or has taken anti-psychotic, anti-depressive or any other mood, temperment or otherwise mind altering drugs would not be eligible.
The person would also have to qualify for the state’s conceal and carry ordinance as applicable.
Requirements to attend a hostage crisis seminar, negotiation techniques,detention of suspects, apprehension and arrest, investigation,preservation of evidence and other related courses.
In other words, it’s simplier to hire a cop who is already trained.
Do I believe that teachers or administrative staff should carry a gun?
A very large NO is my answer. They are not trained in such matters and their daily work would detract them from being effective.
All that from the mind of a right wing thinker.
When I attended high school, I actually brought weapons to school on “dress up day” No one said a thing.
Some time ago a prisoner appearing in Court in DeKalb County GA grabbed a gun from a Marshall in the courtroom. That is what I fear if teachers are carrying guns.
JM – good ideas.
My kids new school in Goddard is setup to where all of the doors are locked except for one single door that enters into the office. From what i understand, all of the new schools EXCEPT for the high school are now being designed or setup that way. Maize has done the same.
Now, i would say that maybe an office worker should be packing in the event someone does come in, they get first “shot”. ;-)
What a sad day in our society that we have to arm teachers in the classroom. What is this country coming to?
My first thought is what if a kid gets a hold of the gun that some teacher or principal has and shoots other kids or themselves? Who is responsible? The chances of a school hostage/shooting is pretty remote. Is this reaction to arm everyone really the best solution to this problem?
GMC..if I remember right, you have disagreements with any obstruction on concealed weapons inside a building.
Didn’t you think, prohibited signs were nonsense.
Your being licensed by the state with ability to legally carry and a business is not outside this state.
That’s where your coming from.
Guns in school on a hot day. Some schools don’t have air conditioning. Teacher barely wearing anything, maybe a thin shirt and shorts.
Where is the gun concealed? Students have to see it?
Again, not every teacher has the ability to defend themselves, even with a gun from a couple of larger students or a group of smaller kids.
The gun shows inflexibility of argument. Teacher is ready to shoot anybody, student or a stranger coming in the door.
Door of the classroom should be allowed to open on a hot day so the air can circulate.
Lock access from entrance to the school is smarter. Have people volunteering time to walk around school grounds.
School teachers and administrators don’t have time in their lives, lesson planning and gun practice. Lets keep them focused on educating.
Security comes from someone else or procedures. Not arming administrators and teachers.
My daughter started Kindergarten this year. My son will start in two more years. I wish a few teachers carried guns in our school. It’s kind of out in the boonies and a 10-15 minute response time for 1 or 2 county sheriffs would not be unreasonable to expect in an emergency. Much more to get enough officers to mount any necessary tactical operation.
JR. Do you fear your son seeing police with guns on? Just curious.
Not that long ago many schools had shooting teams. Some even had shooting ranges in the basement. Antonin Scalia talked of carrying his rifle to school on the subway in Queens. I kept a shotgun in my car so I could pheasant hunt on the way home from school, many others did as well. My, how times have changed. We have been brainwashed into thinking that in an advanced sophisticated society there is no place for guns outside of sport hunting. Many of us have been brainwashed in a sheeplike state helplessness in which we look to government for all of our protections. We don’t need protection because the police will protect us. So you see we really dont need guns for protection.
Funny thing is, criminals somehow didnt get the message.
In the Phillipines, a nation with very strict gun laws, Islamic Terrorists began targeting school teachers with death. The government armed and trained the teachers.
In Israel Islamic Terrorists began targeting schools, shooting teachers and children alike. Not only did they arm the teachers but parent and grandparent volunteers were armed and placed in the schools. For the most part the shooting and bombing attacks on schools stopped.
Whether we talk of fortifying our schools, arming staff, hiring security officers, whatever the means chosen, nothing be 100% effective. But don’t rule out arming willing members of the staff. It works in other parts of the world.
Heckler,JR doesn’t want an armed citizenry, since it’s easier to take our kids away to the Communist re-education camps when we’re not armed.
Like I said before, if guns make a country safer, then the US should be the safest place on earth, instead we have the highest murder rate in the industrialized world. How can that be?
You’d probably end up with a few teachers trying to defend themselves from the sutdents, and capping a few.
Did anyone catch the article about the 13 yr. old Amish student aid asked to be shot first, and her 10 yr. old sister asked to be shot 2nd, in hopes of saving some of the younger children. How brave, and how sad.
Here’s a link if you havhttp://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061007/ap_on_re_us/amish_school_shooting_225en‘t.
Here’s the link if you haven’t.http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061007/ap_on_re_us/amish_school_shooting_225
I taught in high school for two years when I had just graduated from college.
Those kids didn’t know what “shut up” meant. Good thing I wasn’t packing heat back then . . .
Thanks, Rage–Hey, troll, it’s “can’t” and it’s “they’re.”
Please tell me you’re a product of homeschooling . . .
Heckler
Your post proves my point.
I do wish you would just be honest as to your agenda here.
YOU want a society that is used to guns being commonplace as a fire extinguisher. I would bet that your very young children have already been exposed to guns. How sad. Such young children should have guns exposed and explained to them when they are older and better equipped to understand the failings of mankind and what guns contribute to that.
To answer you question, I teach my kid to avoid the police and involvement with them.
Will? Off your meds again? I am all in favor of an armed society within reason. I do have guns. I figure the day is coming when I will need them against “conservatives”. I am not a communist. Really XCrusaderWill you’ve posted that you are a “disturbed young man”, so I’ll thank you not to put judgements on me.
Guns in schools is not going to happen. School shootings are tragic but rare.
There you go again with your plagiarism. How predictable!
Nathan, you said: “If they cant shoot any better than they teach, their dead” I’ll bet they taught you the words should be can’t, and they’re.Arm the teachers, and maybe the students will pay them a little more attention and respect. Maybe too, they’ll learn something as well.
Just another nail in the coffin of putrid, pubic education! Gangs, drugs, guns, security guards, metal detectors, integration, rape, school shootings and now this. Pubic education is so rotten and evil that it can’t be reformed!
Paul Joseph Watson/Prison Planet.com | October 5 2006
A junior high school in Indiana threatens parents with police and child protective service involvement if they fail to pick up their child on time after mandatory Friday classes for missed homework.
Outraged parents forwarded us a letter from the Tell City Junior High School in Indiana in which they were given a days notice that their child had to attend a Friday class to catch up on missed homework.
The letter stated in bold that if a parent didn’t arrive at the agreed time to pick up their child, “arrangements have been made with the Tell City Police Department to have them housed at the police station.”
The letter then states that intervention by the police will also necessitate involvement of the Perry County Office of Family and Children.
This is basically a mandate for the government to snatch your kid – all for the horribly abusive act of arriving 5 minutes late to pick them up from a mandatory extra curricular class that you have been given just 24 hours notice of.
The school threatens immediate suspension of the child if the mandatory homework class is missed.
“I guess it is ok to take a child to jail if their parents only have one car,” the parents told us.
“Fortunately my wife was working third shift at the time, had she not been, our kid would have been taken to the police station, and DCFS would have been called on us, simply because we only have one car and I would havenot been able to get my child after being held hostage at school, by the school.”
The parents immediately withdrew their child from Tell City High and have begun home schooling.
read more here and watch video here:
http://prisonplanet.com/articles/october2006/051006snatchkids.htm
V.L.R.B!!
Marty,
I did not say that.
Lets look at all the false concerns people keep throwing into the discussion:
-teachers shouldn’t be forced to both teach and learn to shoot.
IT IS A CHOICE for them to carry concealed, not a requirement.
-children should not be exposed to guns at such a young age.
Besides the movies, TV shows, video games, books, pictures, magazines, and news which shows guns constantly, you somehow think that allowing teacher the CHOICE to carry concealed is going to expose them to guns?
Why do you think kids shoot themselves or their friends on accident? Perhaps teaching them gun safety instead of trying to shelter them from them would be the more prudent thing to do!
-The teachers are not trained to carry guns.
Those who CHOOSE to carry concealed would attend all the required training before being alowed to carry concealed.
Okay, so let’s hire an armed, trained, actively employed public safety officer and give them a few classes to teach.Let me see, how about a safety class, a healthy living class, a drivers ed class, and a few more that could be taught right out of a guide book.What say yee, oh doubting blog pundits?
Just to update Dave Knadler about the actual federal gun free school zone law: The law provides exceptions for any person authorized by the school board and other local jurisdictions, it is not an outright ban. Any person with a concealed carry permit may enter the 1,000 exclusion zone, but not the school property or buildings. Any person, such as a teacher, principal or janitor can be authorized by the school board or the state legislature.For Tracy, the US Supreme Court did strike the law down in a Texas case, but the Congress re-enacted the law with some changes the next year. This is why I say, “The people think the Constitution protects their rights;But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.”
It has not come up for Supreme court review since.
Thank you, James Macklin.Welcome to WE blog.
We already have DARE classes on sight, and I’m pretty sure the DARE officer wears his gun while teaching.There are surely other things he could be teaching or doing that would keep him at the school for most, if not all of the day.
TRACY – I like your idea.
The punks in school would be snatching their teachers ‘piece’, and we’d have more, not less carnage.
steve-no they wouldn’t. ha
Maybe that shoulda’ been ‘on-site’?Oh well doesn’t matter, the DARE officer shouldn’t have to teach english anyway.
Nathan, sorry, I read above the line instead of below the line. It was CapnAmerica
Federal Law:
The federal “schoolyard statute,” which is part of the Comprehensive Crime Control Act, enhances the penalty by making it a federal crime to traffick drugs within 1,000 feet of a school.
Although the U.S. Supreme Court has declared the Gun-Free Zones Act of 1990 unconstitutional (U.S. v. Lopez, 1995), the Gun-Free Schools Act of 1994 requires states to pass legislation requiring local education agencies to expel from school for at least a year students possessing weapons in school. Exceptions are allowed on a case-by-case basis.”http://www.ncrel.org/sdrs/areas/issues/envrnmnt/drugfree/sa2lk13.htm
JR: and others, too
Yes, JR, I have one still in school; two have graduated. I also spent 12 years teaching in public schools, so I have some history here.
Let’s start with calling out the BS. What is your agenda, JR? You assume I have a hidden one; the fact is, of course, I’m about as transparent as can be. My agenda is reducing the number of kids killed in these incidents. Tell me YOUR hidden agenda, JR. Since you assume I have an ulterior motive, I’m certain YOU do; otherwise, you wouldn’t assume the same about others. Your statement “I teach my kid to avoid the police and involvement with them” is telling. Why? Are police threatening to you?
Who do you wish to disarm? How many kids do you wish to kill?Yes, those are ridiculous attributions. No less ridiculous than attributing a hidden agenda to me. So now that we’ve got the silliness out of the way, lets speak seriously, and speak in the realm of reality. Lets set our “feelings” aside and think about this logically.
I do not come to this idea lightly, nor without awareness of its potential risks. Certainly, weapon security is a concern. And yes, Mrage, carrying concealed does mean making some wardrobe compromises; however, any teacher that is wearing a “thin shirt and shorts,” no matter how hot it is, isn’t being a professional. It can be done. I know that I can carry without anyone around me knowing, no matter what the weather. Carrying means the weapon is on your person, secured, always. It means choosing the holster and clothes properly. And I taught in those un-AC buildings, in hot Kansas schools. Don’t tell me it can’t be done.
Folks, I guess, ultimately, it’s about where you think the potential danger is. I do not fear an armed, trained, licensed citizen, be he teacher or “civilian?” You, JR, do. I do not think a trained teacher is a significant threat to our kids; I KNOW that persons such as we’ve seen over the last couple of weeks ARE such a threat.
I know that the citizen who goes down to the sheriff’s office, places himself under the law enforcement microscope, gets training, etc. is not a threat to anyone except a bad guy. That is certainly even more true for teachers who CHOOSE to carry than the public at large. Certaily, a teacher who makes that choice must be trained, and must practice regularly with that weapon. Those who may carry regularly do. Having been a teacher, I don’t know with certainty what I would do if faced with such a crisis. I do know that given a choice, I want a fighting chance for myself and my students; I do not want to be forced to die like sheep.
The alternative is to continue to have our schools free-fire zones, with roughly 40 kids a year killed. You write, JR, that “It just is not a real big problem.” (YOUR words). Tell that the parent who’s kid is killed. How many must we kill before it’s a “big problem?”
I’m still waiting for a viable alternative; we’ve already “secured” our schools (metal detectors are now common, doors are routinely locked, SRO’s are in the schools, etc.) about as much as we can, and still our kids are being killed. Give me your plan. Give me a realistic alternative.
Is this idea worth a try? Are we willing to simply stand by and watch our kids be gunned down with no response? You can act, JR, or you can continue to watch kids die. Please don’t tell me you choose to continue to accept the carnage we have now as acceptable. How many others’ kids are you willing to kill to protect YOUR kids from being exposed to the your perception of the “gun culture?”
GMC
If you go back and read, you will see that you owe me an apology.
Last I addressed YOU, I afforded that your position here might be entirely noble.I only questioned your dogged pursuit of this. You seem DETERMINED for teachers to be armed no matter what others think. I think the support for that is running about 50 50 here. You will acknowledge that you seek more guns in society not less. You have advocated that kids be exposed to guns and taught to shoot in school. It is natural to be wary that your goal might be a more cavalier attitude about guns. Again, I have allowed your purpose may be entirely noble. I just question your zeal in the light of some of your other positions.
I am only giving you my personal take. These incidents get a lot of light on them in the media. (In fact coverage of them may be inspiring “copy cats” we might want to think about less sensationalism) BUt in actuality they just are not that common. I have a kid who goes to school every day. Why would I lie if I honestly thought he was under any realistic threat?
I don’t like unreasonable, “from the hip” if you will, hysteria inspired solutions to problems especially when my take is the problem is not that big. There isn’t any “agenda” there other than calm reasoning.
“Last I addressed YOU, I afforded that your position here might be entirely noble.”
“Might.” MIGHT?
You won’t be getting that apology.
Certainly, this is one where reasonable people disagree, though I think your position on firearms in general is less thought and more knee-jerk reaction. Let’s see a few states give it a try, and see what happens. That is the beauty of the federal system-the laboraties of democracy.
Yes GMC
Your intention here MIGHT be honorable. OR it MIGHT be directed at getting kids more familiar with guns. Certainly mandatory traning and use of guns in middle school, as you advocate is suggestive of that.
It’s ok councilor; I know you are far too arrogant and stodgy to ever allow questions of your viewpoint. I wasn’t really expecting an apology. This is always the result when I try to meet zealots of the right half way in the middle.
Knee jerk? Whose knee is jerking here? It aint mine. You are using an isolated incident where a teacher with a gun would not have made a bit of difference to crusade for arming teachers and training middle schoolers to handle guns. Your knee is jerking so badly ya can’t even stand up!
Isolated incident?
Three. In a week. How many dead? And the incident before that, and before that, back to Columbine, and even before. How many “isolated incidents is enough for you? Have you offered an alternative? No, of course not. I just hope your prejudices don’t get more kids killed.
And for God’s sake, let’s not have you, of all people, throwing out the arrogance label. Pot, meet Kettle. I’ve read you pontificating about your “reputation” on this blog far too many times to take that seriously.
Finally – If you’re accusing me of wanting to get “kids more familiar with guns” (again, your words), I’ll gladly plead guilty. Lets be blunt: If you send your kids out into this society without at least a basic understanding of safe gun handling, you are a fool. Is that clear enough? Ignorance gets people killed. Since when did knowledge kill anyone?
Well GMC the Columbine boys were REAL knowledgeable about guns. I wish they had been more ignorant. I wish their families had kept their firearms better secured.
Three in a week? Yeah like I said, the press oversensationalizing these things does tend to create “copy cats”. How many before last week?
Shootings take place in other workplaces too. Would you be in favor of universal concealed carry? I used to work with some folks who were really pissed off. Do you want them ok’d to carry their guns into the workplace along with those who fear them? Boss has a gun and worker has a gun? Union guy has a gun and scab has a gun? Gun nut kook has a gun and fearful not gun nut has a gun? Could make workplaces more “interesting”.
But we were talking about guns in schools weren’t we.
Each school is different in each district and county and state. SOME schools have a moderate bent. Some schools have a conservative bent.
Do you really want students instructed by armed teachers? Doesn’t that invite authoritarianism in any bent? Student raises a question of instructor and instructor flashes a warning smile and his or her piece?
You best think more carefully. That is all I am advocating.
I’ve thought it over quite carefully, thanks. And trotting out the usual scare scenarios makes no difference. 48 states have CC in one form or another; and the kinds of scenarios you postulate are all but unknown.
Certainly, each school is different. And each school (or each state) must decide this issue, ultimately, for themselves. I certainly do not advocate IMPOSING anything. But, perhaps, neither should the idea be summarily ruled out.
And I do wish the best for your kids. If you have raised your kid to be decent and level-headed individuals (which I do not doubt), you have nothing to fear. But I’d hate to have ignorance cost a life. I understand your position; a decade ago, I was where you were. Reading, getting educated, and reason led me to where I am now.
The knowledge the “Columbine boys” had didn’t cause the problem; millions have the same or more knowledge, and kill no one. Knowledge is not the problem; intent intersecting with opportunity is the problem. There is little control any of us have over the intent, unfortunately. And we know that banning the weapons doesn’t work. So we have to, I think, consider taking action in the remaining area where we might make a difference – limiting the opportunity to commit carnage.
That’s the whole point here.
GMC–You were a teacher..in thin clothes on hot day none AC classrooms. It’s good you were a teacher. I hope students liked you.
Teachers I had looked professional in thin shirts with a collar and stylish shorts. It was students unable to wear shorts, the problem.We had to suffer just being hot.
Most teachers I had didn’t have the mental capacity to carry a gun or use it. I guarentee that.
Did you carry a gun, hidden without telling administators? The overwhelming belief you have, all who carry with a license are golden personalities of right and might, is wrong.
Law enforcement shoots badly, I expect general citizens to shoot worse, less accurately. Even close up shooting people miss, becuase of the stressful moment.
Its reasonable to not carry a gun. We shouldn’t have a society that requires us to. We’re not dumb for not carrying a gun, that’s what your almost believing.
No matter guns in more hands, crime is going happen. In schools, in a parking lot, anywhere.
The best answer for gun violence is to decrease ammunition for guns in the streets. Decrease the power of ammunition. It won’t happen overnight. Force individuals to make their own ammunitition and charge higher crimes for them doing if caught.
Today’s ammunition would be outlawed in the street until the new lower distance (if guns are for self protection)ammunition are on store shelves.
Criminals buy a gun to threaten, killers would use more powerful ammunitition guns to cause serious injuries and death. If caught with that ammo in a crime, they would get more jail time beyond the crime charges today. Carrying those weapons would have bigger penalties.
It will take time, but possible to, lower power of ammunition nationally in all guns for sale that don’t have hunting purposes.
We can’t fix gun crimes today with more guns in hands among citizens.
Larger communities in the world prove America can exist without so many gun deaths on purpose and accident.
If we’re going to have so many guns, they should be less powerful.—–
Thank you for acknowledging that I am reasonable……..I THINK… despite your claim that you are more “evolved” than me.
With rare exception, the kids and adults who commit these despicable acts are not intimidated by the idea that they may encounter resistance or get killed. They are COUNTING on it. They go in with the intention of getting killed or doing what they wish and then offing themselves. I don’t know how you address that.(Figure that one out and you got a mideast strategy too) I only think you don’t do well to respond hysterically.
JR:
I don’t have an answer for the death wish. The best I can hope for is to take them out before they kill others, or at least minimize the casualties.
And I don’t think I claimed that I’m more “evolved” – however true it may be ;-). (That’s a joke). I mjust note that my opinions were once where seem to be on firearms. I’ve come to where I am for what I think are rational reasons.
And I’m not responding hysterically; I’ve thought this through. I’m proposing that we consider all the options; it’s pretty much the only option we HAVEN’T tried. I’m not all alone in this, and when the next shooting happens (and it will, sooner or later), the calls will grow. I simply think I’m willing to deal with the world where it is and try to ameliorate it, rather than just shaking my head and muttering that it’s a damn shame.
And Mrage – no, I never secretly carried. And while I understand where you’re coming from, I can guarantee some things: one, there is no political will to accomplish the above, and two, even if it were passed, it would have no impact. Prohibition simply doesn’t work. And remember, the use of a firearm in a crime brings severe penalties now, even if unloaded. Has it made a difference?
Yes, in a crisis, officers often don’t hit what they’re shooting at. That’s not a surprise; it’s adreneline at work. Amazingly, there is evidence that civilian self-defense shootings actually are more accurate than officers. It speaks, I suspect, to the very different circumstances between law enforcement use and self-defense use.
We’ve probably beat this horse to death; it’ll be interesting to see what Wisconson (and others) do. Stay safe, all.
That’s: “I just note that my opinions were once where your seem to be on firearms.”
not: “I mjust note that my opinions were once where seem to be on firearms.”
It’s late. Cut me some slack.
“Cut me some slack”
I do and always have. You are a good voice for your “side”. I like to think I do the same for mine.
Let us learn from the simple Amish people victimized in this latest tragedy. It was their very simplicity and desire for it that made them vulnerable. But even after what happened, they would not trade it.
Sheesh why did this guy do what he did? He left behind a wife and kids!
“Let us learn from the simple Amish people victimized in this latest tragedy.”
Amen. Forgiveness is ultimately the only way to be at peace with others and God, however you conceive Him to be.
Superior firepower helps, however!!
;-) Be safe.
An excellent opinion piece on this subject from north of the border.
http://www.hamiltonmountainnews.com/hmn/viewpoint/viewpoint_628526.html
Something else to think about.
forthisreliefmuchthanks.blogspot.com
Something else to think about.
screwed up the link, sorry.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15253321