Striking union workers began picketing Wichita’s Bombardier plant Monday. On Saturday, 80 percent of voting members rejected the company’s new labor contract, which included a general wage increase of 4 percent in the first year and 3 percent in the second and third years. The contract also would have kept existing health care plans but raised health and dental premiums. Workers, who agreed to a salary freeze and other concessions three years ago to help keep the plant in Wichita, didn’t think the company’s offer would pay them what they deserved. What do you think? Is the strike — the first ever at this plant — justified? Is it good for workers and good for Wichita?
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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95 Comments
It is surprising that they have already forgotten how fragile the general aviation industry is, as well as the economy in general. Their union is simply trying to flex it’s muscle, but doing the membership a grave disservice in the meantime. What would the membership think if Bombardier made good on it’s threat of three years ago and pulled it’s manufacturing out of Kansas entirely?
The union members voted for a strike, that’s democracy in action. However many anti-union people dislike democracy. It’s a wonder they want to live in this nation with the evil concept of voting.
They can strike all they want. That’s on them. They have every right to do so under the collective bargining laws.
But I think it’s dispectable how they try to block people from going inside to work and throw things at their cars.
Just as they have a right to strike. Employees have the right to cross the line and work. We are a “Right to Work” state.
Bombardier, which hasn’t been doing all that great and has closed several operations in the last couple of years, and if it weren’t for the City, County, and Tiahrt, they probably would have closed or greatly scaled down their operations here. But Bombardier says they have enough employees to keep production moving smoothly and on time. Makes you wonder if the Union Stikers are needed at the plant after all.
It’s a gamble indeed.
In past years, as a management employee, I worked during two different strikes. After the two sides settled with a new contract, the employees realized that even with the raise, they would never earn back the wages they lost during their 3 and 4 week strikes.
Is it justified? Maybe their grievances are valid, but a strike hurts them more than it benefits the workers.
Absolutely it is justified. Those folks have not had a raise in 4 years.
I admire the heck outta those folks. Their union is strong even in the face of weak leadership that unanimously recommended they accept a bad contract. I worked for 15 years at a plant where the union membership did not have such courage.
Hey Joe Williams? It’s called a picket line. Those folks are using a time honored tactic that won the rights that every single working person in this country now enjoys…..even if most of them have never had to do a thing to earn them. It is the folks who cross that line who are despicable. I’m not sure just who is “dispectable” ….or just what that word means.
The union membership where I worked never had the courage to strike, but we planned for a few and witnessed the companies preparations. “Bombier says they have enough employees to keep production moving smoothly and on time”, means that mid managers and secretaries are going to be attempting to operate machines and perform operations with which the are TOTALLY unfamiliar. That would be amusing to witness! I don’t like to think about the consequences to safety for Bombadiers aircraft.
Respect and admire those courageous Bmbadier union folk. They are on the front line of a battle for every single working person in this country.
Sometimes strikes work, sometimes they don’t. The IAM-AW is a powerful union body, but not as powerful as, say, the Teamsters, or even the APWU.
At least their union CAN strike to remedy poor working conditions. My union is barred from doing so by federal law.
Cry me a river! They are complaining about no raises?? I have a master’s degree and make 35K. Our raise this year was $1,000. Woo-hoo! THAT’S despicable. I can’t afford the $700 per month insurance in my district. So what if they have to pay a little higher in premiums! At least they have coverage!! They seem very greedy to me. I don’t think they should lose anything, but as for wanting more, be happy you have a job in this economy!
Just remember that you chose to be a school teacher, and you knew what you were getting into pay-wise. So you can’t complain based on that. And if you aren’t being provided fair health benefits, file a grievance with your teachers union.
Now onto Bombardier..
Its their given right to strike, and no raise in 4 years with prices going up and how far most of them have to drive to get there. They deserved at least something of a raise after the company started ramping up, but they were denied that until the contract re-newed. Sorry i’d have to agree with the strike in principle.
“I have a master’s degree and make 35K.”
I guess that means you made a bad career choice. Maybe you should think about a change.
Good luck Bombardier strikers in your negotiations but be respectful of fellow workers who have a right to go to work.
As is the case with many work stoppages, I think there is much more involved here than just wages. Through friends and associations, I am fairly familiar with the details of the strike at Bombardier and many people, including management, have not been happy working there for the past several years.
On reading the highlights of the contract, as has been presented in the media, the contract seemed to be pretty good for today’s business climate. The Union leadership recommended that the rank and file accept the contract. However, we do not see the details from the media. We only get the highlights. The contract kept an existing health care plan, but it eliminated the premium plan that many people in the plant had. It raised costs on the plan that it kept plus raising the percentage of the cost the workers had to pay, guraranteeing that the dollar amount coming out of a person’s paycheck would be higher each year. Along with other changes a clause in the contract language would have required some people to work part of a weekend without overtime pay, or be forced to work a weekend shift. After working for more than 3 years without a raise while seeing managers get their yearly bonuses the workers at the plant pretty much said, “It’s our time now!”
Most of the workers know they will not gain back the dollars they lose during the strike. They made the decision and marked their ballots to gain more than money. They want a workplace that is free of misinformation and intimidation. Bombardier threatened to close the Wichita plant in 2003 after shutting down production in 2002 for four months. Workers who had been relatively free of cyclical layoffs were plunged into the tumult of a “paycheck this month, unemployment next month” budget. After the threats of plant closings and cuts, the economy settled down and Bombardier didn’t close anything but a couple of service centers. Instead, they built larger buildings at service centers in Fort Lauderdale and Dallas, renewed a lease on property in Tucson and started building a large plant in Mexico and a parts depot in Chicago.
A strike is not a good thing. It is a money losing proposition for both the company and the worker. Tempers run high and friends are lost as people make the decision of what is most important to them, a paycheck or their coworkers. But most of the workers remember the Learjet they used to work at, a place that was family oriented, a place where people cooperated with one another instead of being forced to compete with one another and a place where you knew what was expected of you from one day to the next. It was a place where management talked to workers instead of dictating to workers.
I think the strike is about getting some of that back.
Thanks for the post, RustyFord. Interesting details.
Healthcare costs are going up and it is difficult for people and companies to keep up with the increases. Some effort to fix the broken healthcare financing system has gotta happen, I believe. I hope our next president and congress have some workable ideas.
You are right, Steven. We have 2 major aircraft companies in Wichita (Bombardier and Spirit) who are owned by Canadian companies.
No wonder we have problems at contract time with our health insurance when they understand an efficient system, then they try to save money in our hodge podge mess we call health care.
Hello, I’m a union worker. I expect a raise of a certain amount no matter what I do or how hard I work. My job performance should have nothing to do with it. I should get a raise regardless of company financials. And, why the heck should we pay higher insurance premiums? Sure, other company employees do, but we’re “special”. The city and company can’t possibly survive without me. If I don’t have my aircraft job then I can’t afford to buy all those cigarettes, concert T-shirts and rubber bands for my ponytail. I guess during this strike I can still save money by not getting a haircut….that always works well for me.
I think its justified. They voluntarily gave up their previous pay to help out the company. That is what GOOD union workers do. Now that the company is better off, they’re asking what they had back.
I have a master’s degree and make less than 25k. However I’m not a whiner like “schoolteacher”.
Sometimes you just need a strike to blow out a lot of accumulated stress. Anybody who walks a picket line knows he/she is losing money. That’s not the point. The point, and nobody in management understands it, is respect. Jeff Turner complained in a story in today’s Eagle that the aerospace industry couldn’t find enough workers. There would be plenty of skilled workers if management didn’t see/treat them as expendable parts. I’ve helped negotiate contracts in this right-to-work (i.e., right for management to screw its emplyees state) to be objective about this.But don’t get me started…
BTW, A. Idiot is well named.
The strike is not about the raise, it is more about the take aways on insurance coverage and raised premiums. Job language and the change of work schedules and family schedules have a lot to do with it, also. Why are they giving them a raise if they are taking it back for worse insurance coverage? Why didn’t they just leave their pay the way it was and the insurance the way it was instead of treating the workers as if they are stupid and can’t add?
As for the 35K Masters person, you got a 3% raise, why can’t these people? And if I had a Masters, I would know better than to stay at a place that doesn’t pay and does’t care about their employees when it comes to health care. You could make more money working on a road crew and have better insurance. I guess a Masters doesn’t really mean that you are smart.
Laurent Beaudoin, CEO of Bombardier, had a salary of over $19 million dollars in 2005, yet his employees took a pay freeze for years. The anti-union people think that the employees should just shut up while their hard work goes to pay this inflated salary and then they are rewarded with cost of living increases?
Perhaps the CEOs of the companies should lead by example. When employees are laid off or get agree to pay cuts or pay freezes the same should apply to the leadership. Instead, what they are telling the employees is to worker harder, get paid less, so the boss can make more money to buy a new yacht.
The CEO is the most expendable employee.
If the work can only be done in your location, then it makes sense to strike, because you have the advantage. If the work can be done elsewhere for the same cost, or even less, then its stupid to strike. In that case, you’re cutting your own throats (see Detroit autoworker unions).
“But most of the workers remember the Learjet they used to work at, a place that was family oriented, a place where people cooperated with one another instead of being forced to compete with one another and a place where you knew what was expected of you from one day to the next. It was a place where management talked to workers instead of dictating to workers.”
Wow, those are the same talking points they use during Boeing strikes.
Comparing factory workers to a CEO makes lots of sense. Any factory worker can do the job of a CEO and make the company profitable. The company exists to make the factory workers happy, not to make a profit. Profits are evil.
I have mixed feelings about Unions. I’m sure they had a reason to exist at one point in time when oppressive wages and slave-like hours were imposed. Now however, there are safety standards to keep employers from imposing unreasonable hours and wages are way up there to appropriate standards of living.
Anyone who can’t make it on $30,000/year needs a lesson or two on personal accounting and budget planning. Perhaps, the third car in the driveway and all those bigscreens and other playtoys are not looking so good now eh?
Part of the contract was to change people’s work hours to include the weekend to avoid paying overtime. How many child care programs are open on the weekend? Weekend child care is expensive if you can find it. Is the company going to furnish any type of child care at a reasonable expense?
Doug is right-on as usual.
Halliburton’s CEO made 46 million dollars last year.
But what outrages “Teacher”? Why, that a manufacturing job out pays his/hers!
The middle class needs to stop fighting each other and start fighting back against the rich bitches that are stealing us blind.
There’s a war against the middle class in this country, and all we can do is circle the wagons and shoot at each other.
Any money that the Bombardier workers can wrest from management and owners is money that will circulate through our economy and schools and benefit all of us.
Money they don’t get goes to build some fat cat a fifth house in Jackson Hole.
Grow a brain people.
“How many times do you have to be hit over the head before you see who’s hitting you?” Harry S Truman
I too give a portion of my “hard earned” paycheck to this union. As a member I am able to spend countless hours out back smoking cigarettes and complaining about this manager and that pencil pusher. When I’m not hideing in the john or sleeping in the hell hole, I wax nostalgic about days of old. You know the ones, sitting in the parking lot drinking beer with Mr. Lear. He was such an easy going guy. Yes sir this union is the best thing for myself and my fellow tatooed slackers. When I got my call back from the lay off and I failed my drug test (hey, I studied for that one). It was the union that got me back in. Screw the customers they are just plopping down a few million. If is a “profesional” they want working on/building their aircraft, then we’ll strike. that’ll show em.
I see the conservatives are out of arguments and need to post under my name. For the record I didn’t make the “profits are evil” post.
It’s a wonder conservatives have to resort to dishonesty. Some like “a nother idiot” have to lie about being in unions too. Perhaps I can try this game.
I’m really upset about unions. There used to be the good old days where we could own slaves, then some uppity liberals and their bleeding hearts said it was wrong. So now I have to pay minimum wage. Then these guys whine that they are losing limbs on the job, or getting cancer from chemical exposure or want a weekend off. Why should I pay these lazy slobs $2.13 an hour when they can’t even give me a decent 80 hours of work a week. In the good old days when people knew their place we could have troublemakers shot. These people are here to make me money and they should be damn grateful for the crumbs that I toss to them. I pick up everything and move to Mexico if it wasn’t for the billions of dollars of government contracts that keep me in this pissant country.
Those people have pretty darn good jobs, and should be grateful. On the other hand, they may be, but just want help coping with the rising cost of healthcare and energy!
I understand a companies need for a good bottom line. That’s just good business! On the other hand, the middle class is in a real big pinch! Take the weight off the middle class by figuring out a way to cut health care costs, and the corporations will benefit/save accordingly!
If you stay at the same job for three years without a raise, it says something about you. Without a cost-of-living adjustment your paychecks are worth less than before, even if the amount stays the same.
The strike will likely cause the plant to move up north. It may no happen this year or the next, but it will put a nail in the coffin. Watch and see if any new projects come to Wichita. Management won’t forget this.
A Nother Idiot- that was well put for a person who is management material. The real aircraft workers are busy making a quality aircraft that will fly and come down safely under pilot control. The ones who flunk the drug tests are either let go or made managers, the union cannot help them. Union members know this, so there is no need to make light of a serious thing.
If an airplane crashes due to mechanical failure thank a manager who cut corners to save costs.
or an airplane that was worked on by managers and office workers while the skilled labor was on strike. Ask Firestone, that is what happened to their Wilderness tires that were recalled, they were all made during the Firestone strike. It put many drivers and families at risk.
Clearly, you’re not very informed about aircraft. That kind of hyperbole serves no purpose.
Ski4broke…I will give to you that the real aircraft workers (the ones that truely enjoy what they do) have always been and will continue to make safe, quality airplanes. I think we may both know a few that found their way “upstairs” after a trip to the “cup”.Doug…they wont have to move it to Mexico, Mexico will come here and you know some of those people dont have any problem sneeking across lines.
I am fairly sure that “idiot” and “another idiot” is a regular poster here under a different screen name.
Whoever it is, you are a coward. But I don’t blame you. I wouldn’t want my regular name attached to such drivel either.
Capn is righ about some of you forming a circle for your firing squad.
Teacher? Attacking another union worker does NOTHING to help your own cause.
You other non union working folk? Let’s remember who we are talking about here.
Who buys aircraft? Why very wealthy people and corporations. Several years ago, the luxury tax on aircraft was abolished to help them in that.Now where does an aircraft worker spend that money he makes producing those aircraft for the well off? Why he pays taxes to support the schools. She buys goods and services from others in the community.
Somebody get the figure up here. Each aircraft worker in this town supports like 2 other workers with their hard won good pay.
I’ve said it before and I say it again. I sympathize with those who have no union. But it was folks like you who made us a “right to work” state and virtually destroyed your own chance to ever bargain collectively.
Hi, I never cared much for that fancy book learnin’. I figure I can bitch and moan my way through life. I know how to put two airplane parts together so, dagnabit, gimee! I don’t care if any semi-trained monkey can do my job, you give me more money now! Don’t you dare expect me to improve…I just want more! Heck, those tatoos and chewin’ tobacco are expensive you know!
To quote J R:
“But it was folks like you who made us a “right to work” state and virtually destroyed your own chance to ever bargain collectively.”
People who depend on others like being in a union where they are just another worker. They don’t have to work any harder, they are protected by their contract. They only have do the minimum expected. It is this kind of thinking that will never let you gain in life.
People who instead depend on themselves do no need a union to succeed. Their own individual hard work pays off. They are not intimidated by the union or union members trying to punish non-union people.
So, no thank you, I do not or ever will have a “need to bargain collectively”.
Oldest missed-the-whole-point, anti-union there is.
And still the dumbest.
anti-union argument
no doubt, the folks in the front office are making WAY too much money. but come on, unions are a joke. union leaders clearly benefit by a strike because its election season. and we have seen how the cutbacks at gm and ford are hurting the big union bosses. so any victory (strike) at this time is a good one in the eyes of the union leader. bombarier’s poor workers are just silly puppets in this whole game. keep striking and watch your jobs go out of state and out of country. sorry charlie.
As far as losing money on strike, if Lear stays out for a month, and the new contract is improved by about 5 percent {overall) it will take about a year to re-coup the money lost. But, from then on its payback time. Average people make this economy work. The obsession with stock returns is only good for the CEO and board of directors. The service economy is reliant on local spending, and the CEO sure isnt out their helping anyone but himself.
So, now it is the union’s fault for 9/11? That is what started the whole downslide. And that fact that GM and Ford had ignored the need to make inexpensive gas saving vehicles, so that when oil prices went up, no one was buying their new, money making, gas guzzling, vehicles? Blame it on the union. When the jobs move overseas, blame it on the union. When your job shuts down because there are no jobs here, blame it on the union. How come you are not bashing Wal-mart, one of the richest non-union companies in the US, who’s employees are having to use Federal programs to subsist? How come the taxpayers have to subsidize their companies benefits? Keep talking, we can tell that you must have a Masters degree, also.
The strike is justified. The paycode 1 employees at Bombardier have given up enough to try to woo this company in to keeping the plant open and in Wichita. The company turns to uppper management with huge bonus money and deep pockets. It is a shameful disgrace how Bombardier is doing thier hourly employees. This hourly isn’t driving a porshe, this hourly isn’t lughing all the way to the bank. This hourly is waiting for a GOOD contract to accept, until then all you scabs, all you complaining lower wage earners who can’t wrap your mind around anyone wanting better, all you corporate misers can bite me!
Logic eludes me.
Basic economics eludes me.
Proper sentence structure eludes me.
Good work ethic eludes me.
I embrace vengence.
I embrace greed.
I embrace laziness.
I embrace tatoos.
Cletus, my fellow brother. Stan and I are still waiting for you to visit us. Please bring that cake with the special file er I mean filling.
Yeah! You all think it is just me but there are lost of us who know truth about unions!
You don’t need a union if you do a good job! My boss loves me because I do what he tells me to and I don’t talk back! When I see other people being lazy I let the boss know! The boss likes me and that’s all that matters!
Joe Williams says, “you don’t need a union if you do a good job.”
This from the man who said that Iraq would be a lot better off this October than last October.
Productivity keeps going up and wages keep going down.
The wealth is flowing directly to capital and management.
Joe thinks he doesn’t need a union. That’s because Joe is a dumb ass. Eunechs don’t know what they’re missing either . . .
Doug–
This thread seems to have the cockroach trolls coming out of the woodwork.
When they start posting over your sig, you know what you’re saying is working . . .
I’ve been saying for several months that aviation will be gone from Wichita by 2030. White workers want to hold onto gains they made earlier. But Third World workers, African-Americans in the South, and poor-white Americans are now being given industrialized white American workers’ jobs. Immigrants and Third World citizans who are willing to accept lower wages-and-benedits are being given traditional American industrial workers’ jobs.
If you want to engage in open competition, then you need a different kind of school system for children. If, instead, you want to primarily protect jobs here, you need to establish energy independence, make your economy primarily domestic, and abolish NFTA and America’s involvement in WTO. Unlike medieval European states, America has sufficient resources to do well absent outside trade that gives away our country to outsiders who hold debts against us, and buy our nation.
You may have to ride buses and bikes to work, and sleep under blankets while your house temp drops to 30 degrees at night. Learn to snuggle up. Bring the kids into bed too, if necessary. Dogs and cats cab handle it. “Come on, share your heat.”
What tradeoffs can you withstand? Some of you may think “Heartlander is a rich doctor,” but in Oregon, when the temp dropped to below zero and we had no electricity, two parents, three kids, two dogs and a cat snuggled up in one bed. Nobody froze. Nobody even said, “I was shivering all night.”
You liberal bloggers are a joke. You get mad and type type type, but what good do you really think you’re doing?
Go back to smoking your dope and let the grownups run things.
I’m sorry, but anyone who is middle-class and votes Republican or anti-Labor is a fool. You can vote based on morality, but Kansans 4 Life will NOT be feeding you when you get laid off. Terry Fox will not let you stay in his house. And you may wind up having to burn your flag for WARMTH.
Ronald Reagan made it societally acceptable to revile the lower class. He also singlehandedly proved the folly of supply-side economics, because as we know, profit is profit, and shouldn’t go to the workers, who could, in turn, buy the product. So all that “supply side” dough went to line the pockets of corporations. Unless you were a builder of custom, high dollar homes or a manufacturer of luxury items, you didn’t see squat. Reagan also coined the term “welfare queen” to describe low-income people who had ‘lap of luxury’ lives (hah) living off the system. Yes, there is abuse in the welfare/medicare system, but dollar for dollar the graft and corruption of American corporations makes the welfare people look like Dudley Dorights.
The union-bashers on here don’t realize the battles that were fought so that there WERE some jobs that paid enough that some working-class Americans could live well enough to enjoy life beyond wage slavery.
Those who say, “Get a job somewhere else” deny the fact that there are jobs to be done, and workers who would provide loyalty were they to be treated with even a modicum of respect. It used to be the case that devoting 20 years of your life + to a company was a trademark of a hard-working American. Now, if you can work at the same job for more than 4-5 years at a time, you are lucky. Who wants to have to roll their 401k over every 5 years, praying that they at least make it to the point where their matching retirement contributions are vested, and that their years of service were worth something? Yes, the Bombardier workers realize they may never recoup the lost wages from the strike. It is a sacrifice they are willing to make to ensure that they don’t give the inch from which Bombardier will take the mile.
The tragedy is that all you poor bastards will bash on the few remaining people who cling to some of the last jobs that pay living wages, hoping to knock them into the teeming pit of despair that is the poverty line. Money, and the love of it, can make a country great, but the few exploit the many. You dumb bastards don’t realize that these companies build a strong base with quality labor, then downsize, move their operations, and now Americans have to incur debt in order to own products they once had the income level to own outright. These corporations own our souls, and they are Rent-To-Owning them back to us. The only time I see this changing is either when the government stops rewarding this behavior with tax incentives and crappy-ass treaties/trade deals (China = most favored nation trade status, except they buy precisely JACK SQUAT from us), or when there are no longer enough people in this country with enough money to buy the goods and services anymore.
I hope you union-haters starve to death due to your own stupidity.
I support unions.
Unions shouldn’t fight for pensions. They should demand pay for the pension money deferred and cash out of that. There is no longer a belief, the biggest companies will fund their pensions properly.
Every pay situation should be without pensions. That includes government jobs. Its up to individuals making life choices with their fuller paycheck, saving money for their old age years.
Mr. Obvious:
The point has been made most pointedly so:
“Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you’re still retarded.”
“Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you’re still retarded.”
I hadn’t seen that before. Great quote.
I feel for my friends and ex-coworkers at Learjet. I know their pain and greif as they struggle to try and make things right. It is not only the pay code ones that have given things up to the company but also paycode 2’s and 3’s. They were forced to take the insurance that was rejected by paycode 1’s. It was not a small raise in cost but 3 times the cost of what they had been paying. A number of people both salary and non-salary have left this company becuase of the way they have been treated. The company moved a production line back to Candada event though it cost them more in the long run because they wanted to ask for money from the Govt there as they were trying to build a large jet to compete with Boeing and Airbus. That plane has been since shelved. The striking workers not only gave up pay raises but also how they earned vacation and sick leave. They have all been asked to work long hours over many months with little time off. Bombardier has threatend to move the plant to Mexico and will most lkely follow thru with this. Not because these workers have decided to strike but because they believe they can build an airplane cheaper and better there. Right now the people walking the line build a better aircraft wing cheaper than the one that is built up north. The workers here both salary and non-salary have done everything in their power to cut cost at every turn. When the workers here took paycuts and concessions their fellow employees in Canada were given rasies. The only time that they took concessions was when Bomber was looking at building the new bigger RJ in a location other than Canada. That was used as a ploy to get those workers to give up things. Of course when the plane was shelved the first thing that was done was they asked for what they gave up back.I say to those who I worked with good luck and hopefully things will work out the best for you all.
I feel for my friends and ex-coworkers at Learjet. I know their pain and greif as they struggle to try and make things right. It is not only the pay code ones that have given things up to the company but also paycode 2’s and 3’s. They were forced to take the insurance that was rejected by paycode 1’s. It was not a small raise in cost but 3 times the cost of what they had been paying. A number of people both salary and non-salary have left this company becuase of the way they have been treated. The company moved a production line back to Candada event though it cost them more in the long run because they wanted to ask for money from the Govt there as they were trying to build a large jet to compete with Boeing and Airbus. That plane has been since shelved. The striking workers not only gave up pay raises but also how they earned vacation and sick leave. They have all been asked to work long hours over many months with little time off. Bombardier has threatend to move the plant to Mexico and will most lkely follow thru with this. Not because these workers have decided to strike but because they believe they can build an airplane cheaper and better there. Right now the people walking the line build a better aircraft wing cheaper than the one that is built up north. The workers here both salary and non-salary have done everything in their power to cut cost at every turn. When the workers here took paycuts and concessions their fellow employees in Canada were given rasies. The only time that they took concessions was when Bomber was looking at building the new bigger RJ in a location other than Canada. That was used as a ploy to get those workers to give up things. Of course when the plane was shelved the first thing that was done was they asked for what they gave up back.I say to those who I worked with good luck and hopefully things will work out the best for you all.
Bombardier is a rotten outfit that has reaped all manner of subsidy and handouts from the Canadian government over the decades. the management is arrogant, corrupt and greedy, but what would you expect from french canadians?
Viva La raza blanco!!
Who ever hijacked my name (probably JR), quit it!
The WE Blog Administrators can track your IP.
I feel for you “some one”. I’ve no doubt of what you say about Lear/Bombadier. Much the same happened/is happening at Beech/Raytheon. Great American companies and their products are being destroyed by greed.
Mr. Lear and Mr. and Mrs. Beech, and Mr. Cessna were hands on folks. They were self motivated but they had a stake in the game. Their NAME was on the product. Every machine or builiding or aircraft was something that THEY made. They knew and appreciated the help they had making those things.
Now?
The folks making the decisions in those places have no stake in them beyond the earnings statement for the stockholders for the next quarter. Every machine,building, product and EMPLOYEE is nothing more than a number on a sheet of paper in a stack of papers on a mahogany desk 1000 miles away from the process.
And that mistake in those three companies is repeated a thousand times over in what used to be good American companies in what was the most industrialized nation on the planet. Sad.
Sigh…….mosquito Joe.
My read is YOU have been posting under a multitude of nics all day long. The stuff that all the union bashers posted is vintage Joe. I guessed that early on but did not accuse you by name. What are you trying to cover your tracks by accusing me?
ski-4broke you make a lot of sense about the middle class(working poor) fighting each other and fight back against these greedy overinflated bonus’ overpaid ceos. if the average worker in this country performed their jobs like these ceos do their would be no jobs in this country cause look at how many of these ceos run companies into the ground or bankruptcy and the end result is they are allowed to resign to save face or are terminated, but with 6 figure severance pay. It has gotten totally out of control the disparity of pay and benefits of the average worker and the ceos, at last count it is in the neighborhood of the average ceo making 100 times more than the average worker! When is it enough for these greedy slobs.
amen mr obvious, well said, what you stated is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth.these non-union jerks are like leaches getting the benefits of what the union members strived for, for many years. I will give you an example of these non-union leaches.. I work for the civil service on an Air force base, a few weeks back management decided that because of the workload that they were going to make 12 shifts mandatory on 1 days yes that is right 1 days notice… well low and behold the biggest bitches came from the non-union( I live in a right to work state BTW) leaches crying foul and preaching the union-company agreement and how the company (U.S.A.F) could not force 12 hour shifts without 2 weeks prior notice! the same a@#holes that do not pay union dues and do not support the union are now filing grievences against management! The union stepped in and needless to say there was no forced 12 hour shifts and so these non-union leaches can enjoy that extra 4 hours with their familes that would have been spent at work. damn hypocrites.been a hard working union member since 1986 and DAMN PROUD TO BE UNION!
Union people amuse me. They are jolly little people. They way they punch the timeclock, grind on metal…all very entertaining. They remind of the old court jesters.
JOSH,
I think you meant to amen Postal and not the rather assinine Mr. Obvious.
Mr Obvious? You little gutless wonder you! What is it you do for a living? Let’s have a little more about you before you start bashing others. Howsabout it buttercup? Got the nerve or all ya all blow?
About Me? Sure. I have a private landscaping business that I built up myself. You see, I didn’t need to be fooled into joining a union to make it in life. I did it on my own. And, if I want to make more money, I work more and invest wisely. Investing is not just for “the rich”. Be an individual and stop depending on others to take care of you. You will never get anywhere thinking like that.
I’m glad you see my point Josh. Thanks for agreeing with me. How dare a company ask me to work more than my regular shift! Who do they think they are? Why should anyone ever do more than the bare minimum?
Ahhh I see.
Well Mr. Obvious let me make something obvious to you.One word.
Franchise.
It is increasingly difficult for folks to do what you have done because large corporations have infiltrated and taken over just about every aspect of the service and special goods industries.
This will eventually affect you. You will be driven out of business or forced to sell out to a corporation and made part of their operation. That or you will eke out a living on the fringe margins of what you do.
Now their is a way to fight back. You can join or found a small buisiness co-op or association. That worked for grocers and small farmers….for awhile.
Sounds kinda like a union doesn’t it?
Oh and Mr. Obvious? Folks who don’t make good money don’t hire landscapers. That is a luxury. So by attacking folks who negotiate for higher wages, you are basically cutting your own throat.
My guess here is you have employees of your own. That is the only way I understand your anti-worker stance. You want to pay as little as possible. Treat your employees fairly and they will not need a union. Given your posts here, I do not envy them.
So, large corporations are bad? The same corporations that provide the products we all buy? You think if we didn’t have these large corporations we’d have the quantity and low prices that we all enjoy now? You think that? You sound very anti-business to me. If you’re one of these union folks then it is these very business that keep you employeed. Without these large corporations who will hire you or other union people? When’s the last time you got hired by a poor person? I’ve been competing with larger businesses for years and my business keep growing. If for whatever reason my business fails or sells, then I will stand up for myself and make it on my own with no union or government needed to help me.
Mr Obvious, this should be obvious for you but the people who hire you are your customers and many of them are poor. Of course if they weren’t poor they could be customers more often. So it makes bad business sense to promote poverty the way many corporations do, because who will they sell to?
The greatest economic expansion occurred with the growth of the middle class. The middle class was a creation of union organizing. It’s really silly how you anti-union people can choose to be so ignorant about economics and history. You pride yourself on being independent from unions but still reap the benefits of unions.
Doug, you and JR need to get together and figure out who hires me. Is it the poor (like you say) or the people (who make good money and is a luxury) like JR says.
I don’t promote poverty. I promote individualism and self-reliance.
I believe your idea of “rich” and my idea of “rich” are two different things. I have bills to pays like anyone else. And, I have employees to pay as well. I don’t consider myself “rich”. If I really thought of myself as “rich”, then I’d not have to thinking about paying the bills at all. My accountant would then handle that.
Exactly how do I “reap the benefits of unions?”
Well you make money off of union employed folk who make the money to afford your service. In your case I guess that is less of a consideration than exploiting your employees.
Your anti union attitude is perfectly understandable now. The more hungry struggling folk out there, the less you can pay your employees. I would not be surprised to learn that you employ illegal labor. Though I doubt you will admit to that.
We will have to agree to disagree. Your business is NOTHING without your employees. I’m sure you would see that the other way around. I don’t think I could face myself in the mirror if I ever thought that way.
Sure, some of my customer may be in unions. I don’t really care if they are or not. If they hire me or not, that is their choice. If they don’t hire me because they are in unions and are on strike and have no money, that will have minimal effect on me and my business.
How do I exploit my employees? I pay them market wages and if they are unhappy, they are free to go elsewhere. That is their choice. Of course I need employees. But, they are there to work for me and get the job done. My business does not exist to serve them. My business exists to make me money. My employees benefit from me having a business to employ them. If they leave, there are others to do the job. If there are no others, then I will pay them more if it makes good business sense in the current market.
Employ illegal aliens? Hell no! I’m ready to go build the fence down on the border myself. Why throw that bomb at me? What does that have to do with anything? Stay on track.
I just read here that “Jeff Turner complained in a story in today’s Eagle that the aerospace industry couldn’t find enough workers.” I can hardly believe he would make such an asinine statement after laying off 1,300 workers(most of them senior employees)when Boeing sold the Wichita facility to ONEX. If they really wanted to improve the facility, they should have gotten rid of the current management. I wonder how people like Turner can sleep at night, but then I remember that the love of money is more important than anything to them. You stick to your guns union members at Bombardier. You deserve to be treated with dignity. People who don’t walk in your shoes don’t understand your fight for fairness. I am amazed at how jealous some people are of you & slam you for standing up for what’s right. Many of them say it will not be worth it because you will never make up the money you lose while on strike. You are wise to consider the long haul, the bigger picture. May God bless you in your struggle.
Well, on the upside for all of us taxpayers – if the strike forces Bombadier to move, those experienced workers can fill the gaps for the need of a trained aircraft industry work force at Spirit, Raytheon, Boeing etc …and we taxpayers won’t have to pay for an Aircraft Technology Training Center — or were the aircraft manufacturers going to pay for it — no matter it saves all of us another Republican tax hike.
Mr. Obvious, in a successful business, if you have employees that are experienced, self motivated, and devoted, it is worth making sure they are paid well and have health benefits, because they will work as if the business is their own and make you money without you turning a tap. Otherwise, you have a business that stays busy, but you are always having to find more help that needs trained or are more trouble than they are worth. You will never get ahead or be able to expand because you are having to micromanage the unskilled labor that you have to hire. Unions are not for small companies anyway, it is for the companies that have thousands of employees who perform skilled labor that takes years of experience to learn. The unions take care of the bargaining and business matters while the union workers keep producing quality products, making the company a nice profit margin. Your employees have the benefit of you being right there to discuss business matters. In large corporations, it is not feasible for a person or even a first line manager to make a wage raising decision. It just doesn’t work that way, because of the way big business is set up. The final break down is do not compare small businesses or companies to large companies or corporations.
What is the price of Bombarier stock right now?What has happened to the dividend on Bombardier stock?The company is not making very much money, folks.Have any of you ever held a garage sale or estate sale?Do you hold srikes when people dont pay the price you ask?Workers are selling something, their time.Think of the garage sale, it doesnt matter what YOU paid for the TV set or the old couch, it doesnt matter how much you paid to sort the stuff and put up the yard signs and run the ads. The only thing that matters is what the public (customers) will pay.It seems rather obvious, that with stock prices down, dividends non-existent, and excess capacity at other aircraft plants, union workers are really committing financial suicide.Companies are not run to create employment, companies are run to make a profit. When you threaten the profit of a company, you threaten YOUR JOB!Each and every one of you has shopped at Walmart rather than keep a local, mom and pop shoe shop, garden center, grocery or other business in business. Each and every one of you is selfish with your money, when it comes to buying or selling products or services. I know good union Machinists that would drop me as their agent or broker if I drove a foreign car, yet those same workers buy their investment through Charles Swab and some of their insurance online. If you really think YOUR personal well being should be at the top of Bombardier’s list of priorities, why dont YOU put the local, Wichita businesses at the top of YOUR priorities?You cant expect companies to employ you out of charity.You don’t make charity a priority in your life, and the stockholders of Bombardier cant make charity a priority in their life.
“Interesting” observations Paul from a union sell out who has never worked for a living.
“Companies are run to make a profit”
People who run companies make a profit. They do so on the backs of their workers who actually make a product or perform a service. An employer is NOTHING without workers. It is time they were made to understand that and pay and treat their employees accordingly. This will necessitate a cut in management and CEO pay. These are LONG overdue.
Paul sez “Each and everyone of you has shopped at Wal Mart…..”Not me Paul.
“You can’t expect companies to employ you out of charity.”
Workers are allowing companies to survive Paul. Without those workers, the company makes no product or provides no service. It is the workers providing the “charity”. Those workers sell hours of their lives. They have the right to be fairly compensated and treated.
“YOU don’t make charity a priortiy in your life..”
Yeah Paul I do. Good and bad.
I gave WAY more of my life then I should to an employer that treated me badly. They made millions on me and kicked me to the curb. That’s the bad.
The good is that I would rather give my time to a worthy cause then sell it to corporate greed.
The stockholders of Bombadier? Piss on them. Piss on all stockholders everywhere who use the money they already have to make themselves more money.
JRCan you have a business without workers?Yes!Can a worker have a job without a company to hire him?NO!Workers are expendable JR, it is a brutal, hard fact of life.Companies are not here to hire you or give you hand outs, you have to EARN your keep by staying competitive.I am not being harsh here, I am trying to help those of you who must adapt to reality or end up like JR, a bitter man who cant seem to obtain what the world “owes” him.I hate to see self imposed hardship, and that is really what this strike is all about, revenge, envy, frustration and financial suicide.(Of course, you could “sell out” (lol) and become self employed JR, but you dont have the guts.)JR, you are a sad, bitter man. I am sorry for you as a man, since you seem to have an attitude problem that gets in the way of your happiness.JR, Bombardier is not making a profit, really. The company is in trouble and this strike was stupid, against a troubled company.Now, as far as stockholders in general, most corporate stock is held by retirement plans and charities. When you gripe about stock holders you are really getting angry with little old ladies and college endowment funds, widows and orphans JR! There is an entire class of stock called “widows and orphans stock” since these conservative investments are most often held by such people.—–JRHow much risk have you taken with your life?This country does reward hard work, but we reward smart risk-taking even more.How much of your personal money have you ever tried to invest in a business?Have you tried to go back to school for more education? Have you risked your time and money to improve your situation?Have you even thought about changing jobs or starting your own business?You are a victim JR.You are a victim of your own laziness, ego and cowardice.You are a victim by choice, JR, so I will not cry for you.—–Now, having said all of this, I think Unions are necessary in large organizations.You will always have some people in power who got there because of nepotism or bad hiring decisions. You will have dishonest supervisors who try to blame management mistakes on workers.I know of a low level manager who went to sleep on a stack of recylced cardboard bales. That pile got picked up by the truck driver and sent from Wichita to a KC Warehouse.This manager was related to a company board member, so if not for the union, he probably could have lied about what happened to him and gotten someone fired.Because of the Union, workers could state, honestly, that the guy was a drunk and it was entirely the managers fault, without fear of retribution.This is a case where Unions can make a difference.However, Unions can also do a great deal of harm if they quit acting in the best interests of the workers.
Paul?
I realize you are not very bright and that your lack of character and intellectual depth reduce most of your post to shilly laundry lists of platitudes and neocon talking points. We all get that.
That said? You made an awful lot of assumptions about me! Hey it is not MY fault for how you are regarded here. Your whining to the contrary you have made your own bed. I just help ya pull back the covers! So your little jihad above against me is understandable but not really very important. I’ll address what little you did to address the thread and clear up a few of your lies about me along the way.
“Can you have a buisiness without workers? Yes!”
Yes I know Paul. That sort of thinking is why greedy American companies are able to locate their “headquarters” in the Cayman islands to prevent paying taxes and outsource production of base goods to Chinese slave labor. I would guess you are in favor of these things. Please mention that often and make folks understand that such is what they get when the elect Republicans.
“Workers are expendable JR” Well some management types or desk jockeys or bean counters like you certainly think so Paul. I bet if we could see inside Bombadier right now reality would look a little different! I’d guess their production has been brought to a halt. People should never think of themselves as expendable. Folks like you are not worthy to expect them to. But then you know how I feel about you. The more people who feel free to tell you where to go the better.
“Lie rant lie…I am trying to help you…”
Yeah Paul telling people they are nothing is a real public service. Remind us all to thank you.
And you make some more assumptions about me…..Hey if you could prove any of them you might have something. You strike me as the bitter one. When I post something about you it is from what you yourself have put out there.
“I hate to see self imposed hardship, and that is really what this strike is all about, revenge, envy, frustration and financial suicide.”
BULLSHIT PAUL! You are on record as not only against a minimum wage increase but the concept of a minimum wage itself. Spare us the pretense of your concern for the workers. And while you are at it you might want to not speak FOR them what their strike is about! They worked in good faith with this company. We have a few of them posting here who may have something to say about your take on their motivation.
This is gonna require a part 2.
When last we left Paul Rosell he was calling me and Bombadier workers lots of names and generally making an ass of himself.
As we continue…..
Actually Paul I happen to be self employed. It is a hard road and it is not for everyone. That is why it is in the countries best interests to have employers that pay and treat their workers fairly.
I am no longer in a union only because I am no longer in the job. This is different from you Paul. You sold out your union and cannot lose your bitterness over it. Why even post about unions except for your hatred of them? Others have the guts and integrity and for now the right to belong to a union. What’s it to you Paul?
And you called ME bitter again?
“The company is in trouble.” It is? I honelstly don’t know. Funny I don’t hear stories of their planes falling out of the skies. Perhaps if it IS “in trouble” it is incompetently run? Does the CEO REALLY need to be making 19 million dollars if he is causing the company to be “in trouble”? Yeah Paul I know blame the workers. I hope they weigh back in and give you what for. I’m used to your lies and your anger. They’ve done nothing to earn the contempt you show them here.
And so I’ll take most of the rest of your vent in their stead. Rant and call names all you like Paul. Know that I share the same level of opinion of you as you have of me. At least I’M not a demonstrable liar.
Which is why I do not take you at your word about who owns stocks. Especially when you play to emotion and offer no proof.
You must have know you had dug yourself a hole with your earlier post Paul! Why did you weight til the end of your last post to stop digging?
You TRIED to get back to some level of credibility with:
” I think unions are necessary in large organizations.”
Well congratulations! Why in the hell has every other post of yours on this thread and about this subject been at odds with that realization?
Dang Paul you are already too easy to kick around. Don’t start arguing with yourself. I don’t expect you to reach to kick yourself in the pants. That’s what I’m here for.
To my union brothers and families of those with family on the line at Bombadier: Stay strong. you are the real American heroes.
JRI feel for the Bombardier workers, I know more about their situation than you do.You have called me several names on this Blog, and made several assumptions about me JR.”Chickenhawk, paid Shill, etc, etc.”Yes, I am making assumtions about you, but I think your response tends to show that I wasnt entirely off target.—-Bombardier workers:
GO BACK TO WORK!
Monday is your last chance to keep your group health insurance. If you don’t show up tomorrow, you and your family loose your insurance benefits.Lets look at the facts: Only 54% of you voted to reject the contract.The “strike” vote is meaningless, you had two votes, and the Union leadership urged everyone to vote in favor of the strike, even if you voted against the contract, in order to show “solidarity.”The truth is, your Union leadership made a mistake in bashing the company and stoking frustrations prior to the contract vote.Your Union even advised accepting the contract, didn’t they?Now, a large number of your coworkers are crossing the picket line. What would you expect with only 54% rejecting the contract?Furthermore, the work product in at least one department has actually improved, with fewer “squaks” or problems this last week than at any other time this year!You are proving to the company that they don’t really need you.That is something you would rather they not discover, I would think!Go back to work, you made a mistake.Everyone will understand.
Hey Paul,My professional life has exposed me to many of our town’s wealthiest people, and some of the poorest. Believe me, the poor are working exponentially harder, and they don’t try to cheat me, forget to sign the checks they send me or refuse to take my calls over an amount that wouldn’t buy them dinner and drinks at the country club. It’s easy to see how the rich got that way. As a result, I no longer sell to rich people, and I’m making more now than when I did!Yes, I’ve watched rich people take risks, but always with someone else’s money. And then, after a meeting or two and an afternoon on the golf course, have the gall to complain about lazy poor people!It’s not what you do, it’s who you screw!
JedYou totally misunderstand me.I don’t always get along with the “rich” myself.I simply refuse to kiss up to anyone, rich or poor. I usually find that wealthy people who earned their own money are very down to earth types.2nd and 3rd generation wealth is often very snobby, due I suppose to the defensiveness they have about “deserving” their good fortune.Even so, our personal feelings about wealth or who we choose as friends are not relevent to the economic facts:The world requires that some people concentrate on the use of capital, making decisions about which companies are winning and which companies are not doing so well.Class warfare against the rich will only make everyone equally poor.
Paul F. Rosell proved whose side he was on when he said, “Can you have a business without workers? Yes!Can a worker have a job without a company to hire him? NO!Workers are expendable JR, it is a brutal, hard fact of life.Companies are not here to hire you or give you hand outs, you have to EARN your keep by staying competitive.”
He clearly has a much higher opinon of those who use, abuse, and bamboozle working people and retiree’s out of their money than he does for people who work with their hands to make a living. He, being a corporate lackey, is clearly driven by greed.
Paul also choses to call Bombardier a “troubled company” in spite of the information available. Quoted from a recent article on Bloomberg, Canada: “Shipments of business jets jumped 17 percent in the quarter as Chief Executive Officer Laurent Beaudoin also raised prices to benefit from higher corporate demand.“It’s a decent set of earnings, given how badly regional jets are doing,” said Gavin Graham, chief investment officer of the Toronto-based Guardian Group of Funds, which manages $6 billion and owns no Bombardier shares. “Operating earnings almost tripled to $77 million from $26 million, but that’s at the top of the cycle.” Paul completely ignores the fact that while Bombardier failed to sell a single regional jet (built in Canada) during the second quarter of this year, they sold 67 Learjets (built here in good old Wichita) during the same period of time.
It is with this in mind that I say he has a vested interest in telling the Union people that they should go back to work Monday. He dangles the carrot of insurance and promises, “It was just a little mistake… Just come on back…. All your coworkers are doing it!!! You don’t want to be left out! After all, the managers are working with fewer problems in one department than any time this year! It was just a little mistake… Just come on back… Your Union leadership mislead you…..Everyone will understand….
Own up to your lies, Paul! You know that while Learjet is a small part of Bombardier, it is the cash cow that is making the lion’s share of the profits for the aerospace division of the company.
You can say the strike vote had no meaning but when 54% of the members say they won’t work under a proposed contract and 80% of the membership say they have read it and are willing to take to the streets until something better is put on the table I think it has a great deal of meaning. The last time I looked everyone in the Union had 1 chance to voice their opinion and had the right to make up their own mind about the contract. No doubt there were mistakes made, but it is clear that the mistakes were on the company side. The largest mistake was thinking the workers were “weak and docile” and would not strike. The next largest one was throwing an offer on the table, saying “this is the best you will get” with only 1 day for people to read it. By that time the rank and file already had an attitude of mistrust toward the offer.
You seem to like to throw out “facts”. You state that, “the work product in at least one department has actually improved, with fewer “squaks” or problems this last week than at any other time this year!You are proving to the company that they don’t really need you.”What you failed to state is that department actually has had zero squawks because THAT DEPARTMENT IS SHUT DOWN for lack of workers! (And I work in aircraft. I can spell squawks without a spell checker, and I can work them, too.)
You say that “a large number of your coworkers are crossing the picket line.” The last time I checked (yesterday afternoon) less than 1/2 of 1 percent of Union members had crossed the picket line! What part of “SOLIDARITY” don’t you understand? Or do you not know that more than half of the people at Learjet are still required to report to work because they are not in the bargaining unit. They are working in technical publishing, sales, engineering and office work of one sort or another and do not work on airplanes. They wouldn’t know a hilock from a huck bolt but their cars still fill a parking spot. Their job is important but they are NOT involved in this work stoppage.
Still, you tell people to go back to work Monday, knowing that it has been announced that the company and Union will be resuming talks on Tuesday.
I have a suggestion where you can go back to. And take your lies, your deviltry, and your bitter attitude towards working people with you.
Paul?
I don’t know what it is you think you “proved” about me. You do not say and you provide no evidence. Just you usual BS there.
Ya know? I was thinking about you yesterday after I finished posting Paul. I had a lot more I thought of that needed saying. You’ve only reinforced that and given me more.
I guess I’d start with this: Just what is your iron in this particular fire? You hate unions. We get that. You sold out your own union and then blamed them. We got that. But just what is your newly found need to butt in on this union activity? As Rusty says, you seem to have more than a passing interest. Forgive me if I don’t buy that concern for the workers is one of them. You are the most anti-worker poster on this forum. And that is saying something. After the names you called the Bombadier machinists yesterday, what leap of rhetorical gymnastics is it that you expect to pull off and paint yourself as on their side?
A new low even for you. That is ALSO saying something.
You are “more familiar with the Bombadier situation”? Yeah? Is that why Rusty busted you and your lies?
What is your abnormal interest here Paul? Quit dancing around the edges and be a man for a change. Put up or shut up. Is it stocks that some of your clients hold? Got some of your folks into Bombadier and the quarterlies about to hit maybe? It’s gotta be something and its gotta be about you cause that is all you are about.
In a non “right to work” state, you Paul, and other union bashers here might have a case. Here, you really do not.
Folks voluntarily join a union. THey vote democratically and hopefully fairly ( not at Raytheon a couple times but that is another story) and they decide what is in the best interest of all. Now you can question them or call them names or whatever. But it seems to me that after you get your little point made that you should …..well…….shut up about it! It is the choice of those union members to do what they wish. It is nothing to do with you! Butt out!
Those machinists are courageous folk on the front line for every worker in this country. Get behind them or get back under the damn desk.
Rusty,Learjet has NOT shut down.They are doing fine without those who are on strike.The trouble makers are outside, the good workers are inside doing an even better job now that they dont have to babysit the bad-apples.I stand by my earlier post, the “squawks” are lower in at least one department than what they have been all year.This strike is proving to the company that they dont need as many workers.It was a bad idea!
Paul Rosell
I believe you have more than made yourself abundantly clear about this strike here and about your attitude about working people on other threads. You have contempt for unions and working people. Like I have already posted we get it Paul.
I’m sure everyone will join me in telling you to butt out. It is none of your business. Those folks on that picket line have some things you have never and will never have. You can’t even begin to understand them.
They have concern and compassion for their fellow workers. I suspect you’d sell out your own mother.
They have guts. You can’t even stick in a word fight on a blog when you are losing. You are clearly an intellectual coward. I suspect it bleeds into the rest of your life as well.
Those union workers have pride and self respect. You have pride’s stepchild , arrogance and self respects bastard child, self- righteousness.
And more than anything else Paul, in what they have that you so lack; those union workers have hope to make their lot better. Folks like you want their lot worse and would gladly make it so. Just so you can have a fatter dividend or a weightier broker fee. Well management aint broke them yet. And it is not YOUR business to help them do that. Or…is it? And IF it is then be a man and say so. Otherwise I invite you again to shut up.You are not fit to comment on those folks Paul.
I couldn’t have said it better myself, JR.To reiterate an earlier post, I am “fairly familiar” with the issues of the strike at Learjet.I know most of the people who are on the outside, and most of the people who have crossed the line. Paul seems to think that the bad apples are outside. If he thinks change is bad and progress is frustrating I can understand his attitude. For the most part, those that crossed the line were only there for a paycheck before the strike and they are only there for a paycheck now. There are exceptions that take pride in their work, but of those who crossed the line, they are few and far in between. Don’t believe for a minute that loyalty means anything to the scabs who slunk into the plant today. They, like you Paul, have sold off their soul and their fellow man for a meager paycheck and an ass to kiss before they crawl out the door, hoping to get a kind word instead of a kick in the pants on their way home. Pride means nothing to them. When the wind blows another opportunity their way they will be gone, but they will never be missed.No, Learjet has not shut down. But tell me…how many planes have they delivered? Is it the same as the scrap rate on the model 60 line that is completely unmanned? Zero?Tell me, why are Union members “trouble makers” when they are exercising their right to protest for better wages, a safe workplace and better working conditions, holidays with their families, and overtime rules that have been a standard in the industry for decades? After all, this is the only time they can ask for consideration for the next 3 or 4 years! Once it is settled, they are as bound by the contract as the company is.Paul, those people you call trouble makers are those who see their work at Learjet as a lifetime achievement. They are people who have stayed with Learjet through the rough times, some who worked along side of Bill Lear in the early days. They have stayed when sales were low and made pizza pans to keep the place open. They were there in the bad times as well as the good. They have seen the mistakes that have been made over the years, many of them by owners prior to Bombardier. And they have said it is time to put a halt to the nonsense and time to use some common sense. We want a workplace that we can be proud to go to each morning and, after we retire, our children can be proud to go to. I believe if you talked to most workers who have been at Cessna, Beech, or Boeing for a while they would say the same thing. Learn the facts! This is not about money! It is about our lives, our children, our friends, our coworkers, and our future!
What i want to know? why is it ok for bombardier to demand bigger profits? Us the workers help them to make there goals by putting in long hours and time away from our famlies at the end of each quarter. We are proud to do so. now that we want more profits and fare benifets we are the bad people? this strike is for all aircraft workers not just us Learjet workers. the people that crossed the line will get to enjoy the fruits of our pain but they wont say thank you.even management can get a better benifit package from all of this.let me be the first to say your welcome
INFO:The Union did not reject the contract by 80%, but by 54%. The 80% was the amount of those that voted to strike if the contract was turned down.
The fact is that 46% of the union voted to accept the contract. The others were misinformed about the language of the contract and confused.
The contract was fair in comparison to other similar manufacturers in the area. If fact, it was a better deal than most of Learjet’s salaried employees has and especially the health insurance was much better.
Most of the 54% were production workers that were emotionally distressed of the language of the offered contract.
They all mention how better Learjet is doing currently and wanted a part of the profitablity. However, if they would look at the recent Bombardier Quarter Financial Statement and compare it with the same time last year, they would see a substantial drop in profits because of the decline in the sale Bombardier Regional Jets. Those aircraft made in Canada made most of Bombardier’s profits in the past.
Business sales were a fraction of the profits, but those and train sales are helping in carrying the company now since the RJ sales have dropped off.
The fact is all the money that the strikers have lost now from not getting paid will not be regained by whatever the new contract incentives – that of course is the hard truth.
This strike could also help Bombardier decide how much more Learjet infrastructure to move to their new Mexican Plant currently being constructed.
The plan will not happen immediately, but as those Mexican people become more trained, the hand might turn toward south of the border to cut the costs of the Wichita Plant.
Well I came here to take Paul F Rosell to task.
What do I find but another corporate dink named C. Edwards!
So Mr. Edwards, this was for Paul. But you can share it with him.
The union won. They forced Bombardier back to the table and got a better contract. They will get to vote on that contract now. THEY will decide. They do not need the meddlesome union turncoat and shill Paul Rosell to decide for them as he earlier tried to do. I wonder if Paul F Rosell will show up here to congratulate them for having the guts and courage that he never had. I wonder if this new twit C. Edwards will retract his last comment. I wonder if we shall ever hear from the miscreant C. Edwards ever again?
Hey Paul? I guess your earlier posts about how the plant was humming along without the malcontent union workers was just more of the same outta your ass support for the stockholders from you? I think you owe Bill H and all those Bombardier workers an apology. If you don’t issue it I’ll write it for you.
Bill H? YOU vote and you decide. And good on you and your union brothers for fighting the good fight!
As a union member and Learjet employee, I just pray that the majority will except this new contract.I cannot afford to stay out any longer. My Wife and children need food and at least heath care that is cheaper than Cobra. The house and bills have to be paid.
Many of my Christian Brothers in my church say strike is rebellous and prideful behavior in God’s eyes according to the Bible.
I guess I need to talk to my Pastor about it and see if he can show me.
I am thankful that we have a new contract and if it is in God’s will, it will be passed.
Welcome to blogging br.
I’m no person of faith. But I know it is said “The Lord helps those who help themselves.” Well YOU and your union brothers did that br. You vote as you see fit and don’t worry about what anyone says or tells you.
The workers are justified to go on strike. They owe Bombardier nothing, but what management does not want to remember is that they owe the Union everything for their part in keeping the plant open. I am not talking through my hat I am a Bombardier worker in Canada, who has just been offered 0% and reduced dental and medical as a reward for our efforts in keeping the program flying. I am not trying to break the company, I want to be able to pay my bills and care for my family. I AM CANADIAN AND I AM A UNION MEMBER. Rise Up brothers and sisters. Solidarity through strength and strength through Solidarity!!!!
Dave,
I thought Canadians had free health care. :)
At least that’s what all the Pro-Union Liberals say here in the U.S. :D
Well we have Universal Health care that is basic, very basic in coverage. Your life will be saved if you go to hospital, you will not have to pay upfront for treatment, but you will be in a ward (6 plus people) and you will pay for drugs, but they will treat you first.
The ambulance ride there will cost you, and they bill quickly. In my hometown the ambulance service is a privately run business. Here is Wikipedia,
‘Canada’s health care system is a publicly funded health care system, with most services provided by private entities. It is important to understand that it is not a true public system, even though the government and others have called it so. In Canada the various levels of government pay for about 70% of Canadians’ health care costs, which is about average for a developed country. Canada is unusual in that the government pays for almost 100% of hospital and physician care, but contributes very little in areas such as prescription drug costs, dental care and Emergency Medical Services in Canada.’
Your drugs cost you, your eye glasses cost you and dental really costs you. Dental care is not part of the Universal health care in Canada and it is expensive. And yes as I said it is basically free, on a first come, most sick basis, and yes you may wait for several months to a year for treatment.
The visit to my doctor is free, that is part of the Universal Health care, but drugs, dental and eye care is not covered under universal health care.
Which is why our local is fighting to keep our benefits. Bombardier wants to reduce its group health insurance exposure, by increasing our deductions, and they want us to pay a weekly premium (user fee) so that I can keep my family cared for.
When I retired from the Military, and joined BI the benefits package was incredible. Now it is pitiful and they are still looking at hacking it. Reductions all across the board for us and profits for them and the shareholders.
Now please don’t get me wrong. I generally like BI, I just don’t like the penny pinching. I want BI to make Billions, not just millions, and I think I have the right to ask for a pay raise that will allow me to pay the bills. Something that is hard to do a the moment. The pay increase we asked for is not astronomical and is lower than the yearly cap set by Prime Minister Trudeau of 6% per year. All we wanted was the company to share the wealth, not a lot just a little. Our CEO’s salary was kept out of the Shareholders report. They say he does not draw a salary. But the US websites that watch CEO pay say our CEO is making around 90 million a year. I have to think about going to McDonalds with the family. I cannot even imagine what the salary looks like.
Our plan used to pay 100% of our dental and drug expenses after we paid the 25 dollar annual fee. Now we are covered at 80%, glasses only to the amount of 200 every two years, my bifocals are 425 dollars alone, I gotta dig deep into my pocket to make up the difference, dental does not kick in until 1 complete years is finished. On top of that BI has held the right to include my military pension into my salary. They had nothing to with my 21 years of service to my country but felt they could include that in my salary calculation.
Now they want further reductions in our benefit package, more premiums that we pay to keep their insurance exposure low and they want mandatory overtime. You should know that the area I work at is a NATO flying school and most of us including the Director and Fleet Manager are retired Military, that later two were Officers. They want to be able to make shifts outside of the Labor Code and want them written into the collective so that they will be deemed legal. Something they cannot do now, and they want mandatory overtime. This is military thinking; It is what I used to do when I wore my countries uniform.
We have offered them to do what they want if they provide us with the benefits we used to have in the military, but they say no. They want the cake, icing and they want to eat it as well. Our managers and directors have stated that the Shareholder is the companies only concern. Leaves us in the dark so to speak.
Sorry for ranting, my years of service have made me seek justice at all times for all peoples.