width=”100″ height=”126″ border=”0″ title=”Concealedcarrysign” alt=”Concealedcarrysign” src=”http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/files/images/concealedcarrysign.jpg” /> As a noted in my column today, Kansas’ new concealed-carry law has already drawn fire from businesses that didn’t like the initial design for "no guns" signs (see photo).
Expect more heat to come. State Sen. Phil Journey, R-Haysville, the law’s sponsor, predicted to the Lawrence Journal-World that not many business owners will elect to put up "no guns" signs anyway — because they won’t want to be seen as infringing on Americans’ Second Amendment gun rights.
Didn’t you see this coming? The law was passed with the understanding that businesses would be free to make their own decisions about whether to welcome guns. But that’s not good enough for Journey, who warned that "people will trade with businesses that do not oppose their free exercise of their rights."
As the law is rolled out in coming months, expect the Kansas NRA crowd to pressure business owners with boycotts and lost business if they think about exercising their right to say "no" to firearms in the workplace.
I hope gun-free businesses stand their ground.
Posted by Randy Scholfield
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109 Comments
I’m planning a long vacation somewhere else while my fellow Kansans shoot it out with each other, and wait for the smoke to clear before returning.
I have told my employees that they are welcome to bring concealed weapons to the office, if they have their permits. I carry my weapon with me but I would of course respect the wishes of business owners who put up no gun signs.
Remember peoples, an armed society is a POLITE society and there are a whole bunch of people who need to be taught some manners! :)
V.L.R.B!!
Jed, good luck finding a state without concealed carry. I seem to remember something like 48 or 49 states have the law.
As for pressuring businesses, that’s a 2 way street. You can refuse to go to a bank or liquor store that does not have the sign. Tell the manager you don’t feel safe.
I did that at a local Price Chopper that put up a “no guns” sign after Missouri passed their law. I stopped shopping there because I thought the sign invited hold-ups. Might as well put up a sign that says, “It’s safe to stick us up, everyone is unarmed.”
Come on Jed, don’t be such a nervous Nellie!
Viva La Revolucion Blanco!!
Randy,
The same freedom that business have to not support concealed carry those who do support concealed carry have to boycott those businesses.
It is a two way street.
Instead of the no carry sign,how about this one?
TRESSPASSERS WILL BE VIOLATED
Nathan, I saw on the news where a mortar attack destroyed an ammo depot, I guess ya’ ducked huh?You’re not at a depot, are you?
Unfortunately, not that many people even carry concealed so even if the majority of them did decide to boycott a business it probably would not effect the business that much anyhow.
The only reason I wouldn’t go into a business which did not allow concealed carry was if I was carrying concealed. I wouldn’t want the hassle of trying to take off my gun before I went in.
Most of the time I will probably just keep my gun in the truck anyhow.
So even if the business didn’t allow it, If I wanted something from them I would still go in.
My goodness, if I boycotted business which didn’t allow concealed carry how would I go to Lamberts! Home of the throwed roll! I love that place!
I have already edited this to say “Concealed weapons required on these premises” and we will post it on our door.
TRACY,
There are ammo depots on every base. The one here could have been hit, I don’t know.
I hear explosions every day, artilery, don’t pay much attention any more.
Too bad the bullet stop isnt open past 9… My friend and I went down there thinking we could get a few rounds in the other night. Anyone know of any other range open late? maybe the one up in Valley Center?
Hey Jed, you have a right to your opinion but…
1. 49 states now have concealed-carry, Wisconsin being the “lone ranger.”
2. No state has ever seen an increase in violent crime when a CC law goes into effect but quite the opposite. Violent crime has always taken a nose-dive.
3. It might shock you if you knew how many people are carrying concealed weapons right now.
4. If people were going to “shoot it out” with each other, they would do it regardless of the written law.
So please chill out.
If you are curious, this is the weapon I plan on carrying concealed:
http://www.sigarms.com/Products/ShowCatalogProductDetails.aspx?categoryid=37&productid=139
I would be scared to go into a business that had a “criminal protection zone” sign. If I left my gun in my car, someone would steal it. There are some who will sit in parking lots just to see someone walk up to the business, double-back, walk to their car, unstrap their gun, lock it up in the car then go back into the business. When you come back out, your window is broken and your gun is gone. Do yourself a favor, if you see a sign simply go somewhere else. Those business will get robbed almost on a daily basis until their sign comes down.
Boy Scout motto:
Be Prepared.
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l122/bgamelson/Beretta012.jpg
A couple of points: Only Two states do not allow civilian CCW, Illinois and Wisconsin. Eight more states have restrictive CCW laws that require an applicant to show a ‘need’to carry, so they are in effect non-issue for the majority of people. In other words, 40 states will soon be shall-issue. And the sky has yet to fall in any of those states, in spite of wild predictions by anti-gun groups and their media allies.Point two is that pro CCW people, of which I am one, should not make outlandish statements, such as “Those business will get robbed almost on a daily basis until their sign comes down.” Silly statements like this don’t help our cause.
Hey Nathan,
I thought as part of the concealed-carry was that it had to be a 40mm or under, the one u show is a 45.
I know as private security the largest gun you can carry is a 40, and a private eye can carry a 45.
“Unfortunately, not that many people even carry concealed so even if the majority of them did decide to boycott a business it probably would not effect the business that much anyhow.”
Well let’s how this works out after a couple good ole boys get sloshed and decide to shoot it out over Mary Lou in an old town bar.
We have to make sure that gun classes include gun etiquette: when you want to shoot it out over Mary Lou you have to go outside and face off in the street. Then you have to allow bystanders time to clear out before drawing.
“49 states have conceal carry…”I don’t recall the paper pointing that out in all the years of their opposition. Is that a lie of omission?
Illinois just passed concealed-carry. Though it is a limited version of what we have, they do have CC now.
http://www.sierratimes.com/archive/aril080100.htm
“49 states have conceal carry…”I don’t recall the paper pointing that out in all the years of their opposition.”
Does this surprise you?
Maybe a little. I know how the paper leans, but I thought their opinion would be expressed honestly.
>Well let’s how this works>out after a couple good>ole boys get sloshed and>decide to shoot it out over>Mary Lou in an old town bar.
Guns will not be allowed in bars. Those that do carry in bars will be [gasp] criminals. There will hopfully be a law prohibiting carrying while under the influence of alcohol and violations will result in revokation of the permit. Of course, bar owners have always been allowed to carry while inside their bar.
We don’t have wonder what it will be like. There are a lot of states with experience with it. I have a feeling that it’s not what the anti’s would have you believe. EVERYBODY PANIC!
.morg,
I suppose that is why we see so much of what you say going on in all the other states with CC?
Typical sensationalism…
I’, inclined to agree with hotlick and Nathan – we will see little change. Idiots who will be getting into gunfights are already doing that.
“Guns will not be allowed in bars. Those that do carry in bars will be [gasp] criminals. There will hopefully be a law.”Sorry I don’t get it, if your carrying a gun to protect yourself against the millions of criminals and sexual predators out there wouldn’t you want to carry someplace that serves alcohol. Or do you leave your gun in the car and go have a few.
Tony,
I have not heard anything about any restrictions on caliber of weapon which would exclude .45 caliber.
You leave your gun in the car. That way, after getting liquored up and ready for the shootout over Mary Lou you both have to go out to your cars to get your guns. Then we need to rope off a section in the square for the gunfights. Add to the ambiance of Old Town.
.morg,
It is illegal to carry concealed into a bar.
How about a restaurant? A restaurant that happens to serve alcohol? Remember back in the private club days when you could buy liquor by the drink in ‘restaurants’ as long as they got at least some % from food?
Tony, Nathan,I read the new law a couple months ago. I don’t recall it addressing caliber at all.
Nathan, nice choice of weapon. You already know my view on the .45 semi for CCW. I’m looking for one myself.
Most people won’t even notice when CCW goes into effect. There’s not going to be “blood in the streets” or anything like that. It’ll be just another day (except for the hang-over).
I’d be more comfortable with less powerful weapons – basically not wanting to see ‘through-and-through’ that then hits the guy behind the perp.
Nathan,It’s illegal to do drugs. It’s illegal to drink and drive. Why concealed?The point that I am trying to make is has our society become this dangerous that people feel the need to carry. And should I fear the people that carry now?
I will not patronize any business that does not display the sign and I will inform the management of my decision.
“I will not patronize any business that does not display the sign and I will inform the management of my decision.”
I guess the gay-porn store has lost your business for good, JR, ’cause they be packin’ some major heat.
Folks:
1) Same old BS from the anti-self defense crowd. “Fights in the streets,” etc. etc. yada, yada. Hasn’t happened yet in other states, won’t happen here. Chill out.
And shockingly, the Eagle is still doing its best to get the sky to fall.
2) Tony, there are no caliber limits in the statute. But as a practical matter, if the weapon is to be concealed, I’d not advise choosing Dirty Harry’s 44 mag. It weighs a ton, and is impossible to conceal. On the other hand, there are a number of small 9mm weapons on the market that are small (fit in a hand), relatively light, have a sufficient magazine (8-10) rounds, easy to shoot, and sufficiently accurate for the job. Try one out.
My gun of choice would be a .45 officer’s model 1911. Slim, sufficently small, and with a good ol’ .45 ACP round. Not as much capacity as a 9mm, but great stopping power, should it come to that. Can’t afford one right now, however.
3) Ben; just to clarify. You can’t carry in a bar; you can in a restaurant that serves alcohol. The distinction is in the type of license required, based on whether over 50% of the income (I think it’s 50%) comes from food. It’s not that hard to tell the difference. Carry in Applebees (assuming they permit same), don’t at Kirby’s.
4) Personally, given a choice, I will choose not to do business with a seller who requires me to surrender my self-defense weapon. I will probably inform the management of my decision, and the reasons, as well, in a sane quiet manner.
Finally, to those of you who choose to carry: It is CONCEALED carry. Be discrete; please do not go around proclaiming proudly I GOT MINE!!!. Remember; it is the anti-self defense crowd that is making the wild, unsupportable claims here. We have the advantage of proven experience in the 40+ states that have preceeded Kansas into this law. We know better; don’t play into the panic by the antis. Just quietly go about your business.
It’s not a perfect CC law; but it the law. Abide by it.
Nathan:
I love the compact .45s, but I have such small wrists that I have trouble with combat control of a weapon of that caliber without full grips. I’m thinking more along the lines of a hammerless revolver in .357 Mag or a .380/9mm Auto. My .40 Glock gives my wrists a workout, and if I’m going to carry anything it’s gotta be something I can fire without endangering everyone around me. If you can handle it, and are willing to deal with the weight of 6+1 rounds of .45, then more power to you. I definitely won’t screw with you.
er… 8+1 rounds of .45 auto. That’s a heavy gun when loaded.
And Tony, it’s .40 CALIBER, not millimeter. 40 millimeter is around 1 3/4 inches in diameter. That’s a really big bullet, and I don’t know of any concealable handguns that fire a bullet that large. Maybe a Nerf gun or a Ping Pong Ball shooter.
Caliber is denoted as a decimal inch (.40 caliber is four tenths of an inch in diameter, usually followed by the letters S&W meaning the truncated 10mm Auto cartidge designated as the 40 Smith and Wesson, also referred to perjoratively as the “40 Short & Weak” due to its lower power potential compared to the 10mm Auto.)
I may be somewhat liberal on some things, but I am an NRA member and I support the 2nd amendment.
>Sorry I don’t get it, if your >carrying a gun to protect >yourself against the millions of >criminals and sexual predators >out there wouldn’t you want to >carry someplace that serves >alcohol. Or do you leave your >gun in the car and go have a few.
If you’re going to go drink, you leave your gun at home.
Most situations that require a firearm to ‘defend’ yourself are in the small end of the spectrum of incidents. If one is in a life threatening situation, it usually takes them by surprise or they went looking for situation to occur.
Now I’m kind of scared, all those people on Kellogg driving 30 miles over posted speed limits, talking on the cell phone, using medicinal ‘herb’ and packing a handgun.
If road rage is any indication of how many people ’shouldn’t be carrying handguns, then I would say ‘Houston, we have a problem.’
I own guns, and have no interest in carrying one. I don’t understand what need or what crime wave is to be solved by this law. I don’t recall hearing about anyone using a weeapon at home to protect or stop a situation.
What’s broken?
Recent WE articles indicate that even the trained Police have trouble hitting a close target. What about the guy that can’t properly use a turn signal using a gun?
If I carry, I will be very responsible about it; I am not a joke about.If a business or places say no guns allow, I will respect their say.I am not going to boycott a business just because they don’t want guns allowed and I don’t think that a business that does not allow guns are going to be a target for robberies.There is always the possibility that the owners may not want guns carry in but the owners themselves may be carrying, it is their prerogative.If I see trouble, I will call the law first.If I have to use my gun it is only to protect other people first then my self.Just remember that firing a gun within the city limits is still against the law.Learning to carry a gun safely is not just carrying a gun; it is also the knowledge of when it is necessary to use a gun.Using a gun can mean taking a life, which is why a police officer is always suspended for a few days and sometimes requires standard mental health treatment.CCW is very big responsibility, you have to use good judgment or you can easily be in a cell along side with those that willfully break the law.One other thing that a lot of people do not understand and that is before CCW you were allowed to carry a gun un-concealed.
It’s a back door tax. The man knows most of these guys won’t draw down on somebody. But to be on the safe side I will visit unarmed establishments.
>I don’t understand what>need or what crime wave>is to be solved by this law.
Not solved, prevented. This law will make crime a deterrent to the criminal.
>I don’t recall hearing>about anyone using a>weeapon at home to protect>or stop a situation.
Really? I’ve heard numerous stories printed right here in the Eagle about break-ins that occured where the homeowner didn’t have a gun and ended up getting robbed/stabbed/shot. You’re telling me you haven’t read the same stories?
>What’s broken?
The Democratic views of the second ammendment to the US Constitution.
>Recent WE articles indicate>that even the trained Police>have trouble hitting a close >target.
So do we ban the Police?
>What about the guy that>can’t properly use a turn>signal using a gun?
You’re comparing apples and oranges.
>If I carry, I will be very >responsible about it; I am>not a joke about.
Good!
>If a business or places>say no guns allow, I>will respect their say.
Megadittos!
>I don’t think that a>business that does not>allow guns are going to>be a target for robberies.
You think robbers would rather target businesses that allow guns? Be real.
>If I see trouble, I will>call the law first.
You’re walking through a park when you see a woman getting raped and severely beaten as she’s screaming for help. You have a gun on you. You’re going to reach for your cell phone and call the law??? Then get the hell out of my way because I’m going to put a gun to the jerk’s head and tell him he’s got exactly 2.2 seconds to get off that lady and lie face down on the ground before I take his head off. Then I’m calling the law.
>If I have to use my gun>it is only to protect>other people first then>my self.
But you’re going to call the law first, right?
>Just remember that firing>a gun within the city>limits is still against>the law.
I’d rather be judged by twelve then carried by six.
>Learning to carry a gun>safely is not just>carrying a gun; it is>also the knowledge of when>it is necessary to use a>gun.
And when it is nessessary to use the gun BEFORE calling the law.
>Using a gun can mean>taking a life,
Many times taking a life can prevent the taking of several lives. What if one of the Carr brother’s victims had a gun?
>CCW is very big responsibility, >you have to use good judgment
And when to draw your weapon and when to draw your cell phone.
>One other thing that a>lot of people do not>understand and that is>before CCW you were>allowed to carry a gun>un-concealed.
That was the “open holster” law that was repealed awhile back. The weapon had to be unloaded and holstered. Now what the hell good is that? You could not carry a loaded weapon. However, this stupid law was repealed a couple decades ago along with the fact that people could no longer carry their rifles displayed in the back window of their pickup trucks.
Hey BILL –You are lashing out of control which ever directions you can on your comments.Try not letting your frustrations get the best of you.
Dem signs will make good target practice!
Bill-
Your response to my post is a classic example of misdirection. Yoy addressed nothing but your ego.
http://www.wichita.gov/CityOffices/Police/Investigations/Robbery+Assault/What_to_do.htm
What To Do During A Robbery
Do exactly as you are told. DO NOT RESIST.
Be the best witness you can be by getting a good look at the robber so you can describe him later. Including clothing, scars, marks, tattoos, and facial hair.
Don’t be a hero. It’s better to lose your money than your life.
Note his direction of travel when he leaves.
Try to get a description of his vehicle ONLY if you can do so without exposing yourself to harm.
“Do exactly as you are told. DO NOT RESIST.”
BS!!! Pull your S and W 50 cal revolver from your barely conceiled custom holster and blow his frikin head off. One round will do. Allow any others present to kick the corpse a few times.
Go home, hug the kids and order pizza in.
The number of wannabe Rambos here troubles me.Walker? If you are already drawn down on you got no chance.
Hello Morg –Does that advise work?Yes it does, I know because that has happen to me.Three men were committing robbery when I walked into them in my house.I have I.D. two of them and their car and the police caught them, put them in prison but the third one I could not I.D. because I could not see his face.I am sure that sometime in the future they will catch him.If I had a gun on me at that time, I could have held them there until the police came.The one thing about that advice that does not work is sometimes they will become violent and will attack you just because you interfered with what they were doing.That I know too because I was stabbed in the stomach.
Poor poor people…the media and the government have you right where they want you…scared to death. I’m glad I can see it.
Dear GMC70,
It sounds like to me you wish very badly everyone else who wants to carry would be like you so as not to draw attention to the issue. You are trying to sound reasonable, and don’t get me wrong, you do…but here is how I look at it.The people of Wichita can’t even control their vehicles on Kellogg. There is a lot of road rage not to mention about 3 out of 5 drivers drive like 2nd graders. Knowing I am surrounded by total idiots every where I go, it makes me incredibly frightened of people who think they are responsible enough to carry a gun. Go to the grocery store and see how people act. People are angry morons with no self control. Just wait and see how long until we have a shooting on Kellogg. Oh, and how many bars are going to run a scanner for guns? Guns WILL go into bars whether you like it or not.
This whole thing is a VERY bad idea.
Shakin:
Remember; we don’t have to imagine what will happen. We have the experience of 39 other states that have passed “shall issue” CCW. And the lesson of those states is that the fears expressed by some here are entirely unfounded. Unless you believe tha Kansans are inherently more bloodthirsty than other Americans, the result is predictable. 1) there will be no increase in “road rage,” etc. type shootings. Experience in other states is that crimes committed by CCW holders with a carry weapon is almost unknown. 2) SOME types of person crimes will go down slightly, while it will likely have an insignificant impact on crime in general.
You have nothing to fear from the licensed CCW holder. Pay no attention to the fear-mongers on this blog. They peddle fear. They’re wrong. Period.
And .morg:
“What To Do During A Robbery
Do exactly as you are told. DO NOT RESIST.
Be the best witness you can be by getting a good look at the robber so you can describe him later. Including clothing, scars, marks, tattoos, and facial hair.
Don’t be a hero. It’s better to lose your money than your life.
Note his direction of travel when he leaves.”
I’ll agree with all of that, as a CCW holder. Up until the point that my life, or anothers’, is at imminent threat. At that point, I’ll give myself a fighting chance. And that weapon gives me that fighting chance.
The Eagle prints victim stories, American Rifleman prints stories of successful self defense. I find it reprehensible to live in a society where not having the choice which periodical your story will end up in is a mandate.
Tracy:
Your comment upthread reminded me of a sign I once saw, which I thought apropos. It went:
WARNING
TRESPASSERS WILL BE SHOT
SURVIVORS WILL BE SHOT AGAIN.
;-)
Don’t carry a weapon, don’t plan to, but I support CCW, and the reason is a study done back in the early 90s after Florida passed its law.Supposedly, an overwhelming majority of armed robberies in that state now occur within 1 1/2 miles of an interstate highway.
Ben,
“power” of a weapon could mean different things.
The larger the caliber of the weapon usually the slower the round will be and less penetrating power it will have.
I will carry a .45 for the stopping power.
A 9mm has more penetration than a .45 would.
The FPS of a 9mm round is typicaly much higher than a .45 and since it has less mass will go through a target rather than be stopped by it.
So if your fear is of shooting through a target, a .45 is a good weapon, add hollow points, and you are set.
I plan on using my hydra-shock hollow points and will have one spare mag with FMJ rounds.
Postal,
Mu current handgun is a USP .45 which carries 10+1 or 13+1 of .45 ammo.
I am used to firing and training with it, so I am not worried about a smaller .45.
I practice at least every 3 months and will probably do it even more once I start carrying concealed.
I teach marksmanship in the Marine Corps, so I am not too woried about my ability to hit a target (or person I am shooting at) :)
.morg,
I think you must have missed a group of people that did not resist a robbery.
They didn’t resist as they were taken naked to a field.
They didn’t resist as they were shot and killed.
The one remaining survivor didn’t resist when she barely survived the gun shot to her head.
Does anyone remember the Carr Brothers?
Listen people,
CC is not going to stop every crime in every situation.
It is not meant to.
It is not meant to be a solution to all problems.
JR,
It is not supposed to get you out of every situation.
IT GIVES US CHOICE. IT GIVES US THE ABILITY TO DEFEND OURSELVES IF WE WANT TO.
Why is it that almost everyone who is opposed to CC brings up the same old argument about us never being able to defend ourselves or just endangering ourselves if we do when someone is already pointing a gun at us.
I can play the what if scenario game too, I suggest you read some magazines like American Rifleman and other gun mags which actually print stories about how concealed carry saved someones life.
My own father used his weapon to quite possible prevent a crime too.
XXX,
I have always wanted a SIG, so I figure if I am going to buy a CC gun I might as well use this as an opportuity to get one.
I need to do a bit more research on it though. I am curious as to what kind of recoil reduction they have if any at all.
My USP .45 has a double spring which makes it nicer to shoot compared to others.
Sorry girls, but in a home invasion, with kids present, if the chance comes, blow the scumbag away. With the level of violence out there today, dropping some moron trying to rob you may be the only answer if you want you and your kids to see tomorrow.
>Hey BILL –>You are lashing out>of control which ever>directions you can on your >comments.
I am in complete control, thankyou.
>Bill-
>Your response to my post>is a classic example of >misdirection. Yoy>addressed nothing>but your ego.
Is that the best response you have? No logic, just accusations?
Nathan – good points. Obviously I am NOT an expert in this field. As I recall they (FAA?) have worked on weapons that have stopping power but not too much penetration. I think these might have a lot of good applications – air marshalls, school officers, etc. I am not against CCW (although I did have to make a few wisecracks above) but I DO want to see careful screening and training.
>Be the best witness you>can be by getting a good>look at the robber so you>can describe him later.>Including clothing, scars,>marks, tattoos, and facial>hair.
This can actually be your death warrant. If the rober knows you might be able to identify him in a lineup, he may shoot you just so you can’t. If you don’t get a good look at him, he will most likely spare you.
>Does anyone remember>the Carr Brothers?
Yes, which goes to prove that one set of rules don’t work all the time. Every situation is different and a crack addict will kill over $20.00.
Or maybe if you get a good look at him and can identify him in a lineup.
JR
A couple of links to self defense stories. You can also find a bunch at the NRA website.(if you dare go there)
http://keepandbeararms.com/opsd/default.asp
http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/blogger.html
Ben,
They actually have ammunition which is filled with plastic pellets. When the bullet hits a solid target it shatters with no penetration.
I use them for my home defense. They will not go through sheet rock so if you do miss you don’t have to worry.
On the plus side, when they hit flesh they instantly explode into the body transfering all the energy of the round into the person for maximum stopping power. While shredding the internals with tiny plastic pellets…
I believe they use those rounds on airplanes too.
Thanks nathan. By the way, a story out of FL that reinforces what Bill is saying.
Y’know, I lived in the middle of gang central for 14yrs, and felt no need to pack heat. It was a much safer neighborhood than when I lived out in the country, surrounded by good ole boys with beer and shotguns!
First of all 49 states do not have CC laws more like 32 — and the number of incidents of accidently dischargd weapons has risen in those states as have random acts of shootings for shootings sake …. there was a guy several weeks ago on the opinion line that stated he couldn’t wait til he could CC then he could shoot all the slow drivers in the left lane, is that why we should have CC what a moron …. — so Kansas wants to be progressive, trying silencing the Phelps and far right conservatives who embarrass this state nationally on a regular basis — I will look to shop at places that have the cc ban signs — and avoid the neighborhoods where crime is rampant — you ass holes scare me — maybe I better get a gun to defend my self from the likes of you
you want to carry a gun — join the army they have the bigger ones
Policemen are nobody’s personal bodyguards.Their jobs are to find and arrest people who have committed crimes, not to prevent such potential crimes from happening in the first place.Clearly, the responsibility for victim-prevention lies with the victim-to-be.Carrying a gun is a social responsibility.A citizen who shirks his duty to contribute to the security of his community is little better than the criminal who threatens it.
Folks, you can go back and forth ad nauseum on this one, but I think gster nailed it. CCW is a cure for a non-existent disease. The notion that guns somehow provide instant personal protection is an interesting one. Guns can intimidate and return fire. They are not shields or magic spells.
The reality is that we will see countless examples of people shooting each other over women or money or drugs or freakin’ cupcakes before even a single example of someone using a gun for personal protection.
And let’s just hope that person knows what they’re doing with that weapon.
A friend of a mine got fatally shot during an intrusion into someone’s backyard. The sucker deserved it, right? Wrong.
Let’s leave aside the ethical questions about killing someone for criminal trespass. He had nothing to do with it at all. He was driving down 21st St., 2½ blocks away.
Bullets keep going.
P.S. Wiseman, the notion that an armed community is somehow safer–let alone a moral obligation–is too idiotic for words.
Rage,
Do you enjoy making this stuff up or what?
>The reality is that we will see >countless examples of people >shooting each other over women >or money or drugs or freakin’ >cupcakes before even a single >example of someone using a gun >for personal protection.
What reality do you live in? People with CC permits shooting each other over women and drugs?
Where do you get that from?
CC is not meant to be a cure for any disease. It is about giving people the CHOICE and ability to defend themselves.
I don’t care whether or not allowing CC will cause some huge revolution in crime reduction, I care about being afforded the opportunity to be able to protect myself or others if the situation ever should arise.
Nathan,
Much as you would like to believe otherwise, people who pack heat don’t exist on a higher plane, and are at least as likely (if not more so) to draw their weapons for stupid reasons.
If I lived in Baghdad, I would gdefinitely carry a gun. I’ve felt no need in Wichita, Tulsa or even Tucson. I wouldn’t voluntary live somewhere where I had to be that paranoid (and, BTW, I lived in Insane Crips territory for a while. . ).
I don’t have the stats offhand, but how often do you hear of handgun heroics, instead of tragedies?
Rage,I have heard many such tragedies. I have heard of stories where an off-duty policeman was killed while attempting to thwart an armed robbery in progress. Now, officers aren’t allowed to carry their sidearms when off-duty, had this particular officer been allowed to do so, perhaps his wife wouldn’t be a widow today.
I see that the Eagle continues to push it’s anti-gun and pro-wetback agenda contrary to the will of the majority of Americans. Facts and popular will don’t matter when you are an ELITIST!
Ian T. Santiago: Blog Prophet!
Viva La Raza Blanco!!!
It’s easier to control the sheep… I mean people when they’re unarmed.
Oh, please. More crap, ad nauseum:
“The reality is that we will see countless examples of people shooting each other over women or money or drugs or freakin’ cupcakes before even a single example of someone using a gun for personal protection.”
“and the number of incidents of accidently dischargd weapons has risen in those states as have random acts of shootings for shootings sake”
More unsupported BS from the anti self-defense crowd. Ken, get your facts straight. 48 states have CC in some form (Ill and Wis; and Ill has a “sorta” carry). In approximately 40 states it is “shall issue” to a qualified applicant, like in Kansas.
Ken, Rage, should I expect some verifiable documentation / references for your assertions? I won’t hold my breath.
In fact, I’ll do better. I’ll make a wager right now. As of Jan 1, 2008, there will be not a single conviction in Kansas of a violent crime committed by a CC holder with his carry weapon. 12 pack? 1st taker buys me the beer. And I like the good stuff.
Nathan,
I believe your father has BRAGGED about carrying illegally. Not exactly conducivce to my trusting him to carry legally!
http://www.usadojo.com/articles/gun-alone.htm
A gun by itself is simply that; a gun, a tool and nothing more. Loading the pistol and firing at a stationary target is not self-defense. Having a Permit to Carry a Pistol alone is not self-defense. From 1993-2002, in the United States, there were 636 Police Officers feloniously killed in the line of duty[1]. The majority of these officers died engaged in an encounter they knew could potentially end their lives. Unfortunately, 78.6% of the 636 officers killed in the line of duty never even cleared leather. What makes Joe average permit holder think they will do any better then Professional Law Enforcement Personnel who enter life or death situations every day and train for these types of encounters regularly? Even trained Officers who survive gunfights often miss the bad guy they’re aiming at. It is very different when your target is screaming, running and shooting at you. Very few civilians and permit holders ever receive training or practice weapon retention techniques ignoring the fact that from 1993-2002 there were 46 officers who were feloniously killed by their own weapons[2]. Many staunch guns advocates would rather ignore this fact and dismiss it as anti-gun rhetoric and embrace their false belief that the gun itself is protection and personally owned firearms pose no threat to the owners themselves.
“As of Jan 1, 2008, there will be not a single conviction in Kansas of a violent crime committed by a CC holder with his carry weapon.”
Uhm, right, GMC. Maybe the legal system operates a little faster in your neck of the woods. I’ll pass. And the notion that I’m somehow opposed to self-defense is of course wrong (an odd idea, since I’ve been robbed at gunpoint–twice–and presumably care about myself).
Your challenge is an interesting statement of personal faith, GMC, but also a nice way to evade the substance of what I actually said.
To recap: I believe there will numerous shootings (mostly accidental) by CCW holders before a single act of successful heroism occurs. That’s not a particularly radical assertion.
Let’s turn it around: Do you really expect even a single act of CCW firearm heroism to occur in Kansas in, say, the next five years? I doubt it.
I’ve simply made the banal observation that people do stupid things.
So, if I’ve got this right, you’re demanding that I produce stats that prove that numerous CCW permit-holders are likely to discharge their guns in a stupid manner before anyone does something heroic.
Well, see .morg’s post above. The odds are (unfortunately) on my side.
P.S. the listed source for .morg’s stats . .[1] Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted 2002; Federal Bureau of Investigation. U.S. Department of Justice Publication, Washington, D.C. pp 5-56.
http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2006/mar/30/chat_sen_phil_journey_about_concealed_carry/?online_chats
Sen. Phil Journey: Each person who chooses to possess a firearm should consider the ramifications for them of using the firearm and the psychological consequences of that use. This bill is about choice. The person with appropriate training and psychological preparation will not hesitate to protect themselves or another person. I hope that knowledge of this facet will be included in the training requirements so that applicants contemplate the meaning of possession of a firearm. The Department of Justice and Florida State University victimization surveys have shown that over 99 percent of the time when a firearm is used to prevent a potential violent crime, it is only brandished. For every time a firearm is used to commit a violent crime, a firearm is used two or three times to prevent a potential violent crime. There is a good side to firearms ownership that we seldom hear in the media or in the news because tragedy is averted.
Does the law address these points made by Mr. Journey? Are the applicants screened for a mental illness? Do the applicants receive training in a combat style setting?
Rage .morg
What you forget is that cops routinely engage in dangerous behavior. It’s part of the job. Every traffic stop, every domestic dispute call, is a potentially deadly situation.
CCW holders are taught to run away from dangerous situations if possible. They arent supposed to and are discouraged from trying to aprehend a suspect.
Yes it’s possible a CCW holder could die by their own weapon, but I’ve followed news on stuff like that for over 10 years now and have only heard of that happening in one case. I don’t remember the state or the details.
The background check does include mental health issues, but I’m not sure what type of data base is searched.
Combat style training is not required, although I’m sure most trainers recommend continued training.
.morg
I believe that about 1.5 hrs. of the training is focused on the psychological aspects of using deadly force in self defense. I havent taken the training yet so I’m not sure exactly what is covered. Perhaps GMC or someone else who’s taken the class could weigh in on that.
I have a permit. While I support the business owners who do not wish to have conceled weapons in their place of business, I will find places to shop where I am welcome to carry.
P.S. GMC, if you think you’re such an expert on this, why no mention of Lott or Kleck? (find the references yourself!).
Rage: “I’ll pass.”
I thought so. And that’s not based on blind faith, that’s the experience of the states with CC. Why would you expect Kansas to be different?As to the burden of proof – I think your side carries it. Anytime government is to tell its citizens they cannot do something, there should be a rational basis for doing so. The restrict anti-self defense side has that burden. And it hasn’t been met.
“Do you really expect even a single act of CCW firearm heroism to occur in Kansas in, say, the next five years? I doubt it.” Short answer? Yes, and as noted in Journey’s comments above, you’ll probably never hear of it, because in the vast majority of cases, a shot is never fired.
As to Heck’s question; I actually assisted in teaching the legal part of the course; spent roughly two hours going through the legal ramifications of carrying/using that weapon. As I said before, I’m not particularly impressed with the AG’s course. If you are considering carrying, I STRONGLY advise further training and regular practice; the AG’s course is NOT enough. The course does talk of a psychological component, but mostly it is in dealing with the trauma of a shooting incident after it happens, and the guilt/second guessing that inevitably would be a part of taking anyone’s life. I advocated two things re: psychological aspect 1) regular practice, not just at fixed targets, but in more practical circumstances. (Anyone do IPSC or similar shooting?) and 2) thinking through, in your own mind, various scenarios and what the proper actions would be in those scenarios – in other words, visualize. In the moment, you will not have time to carefully weigh all the options, you may have to act, now, to stay alive. Think in advance.
I’ll second in spades Heck’s comment as to running. I taught exactly that. CCW holders are NOT cops, and are NOT to pursue or apprehend. If one CAN retreat, DO SO! That weapon is for ONE reason only; protection of yourself or others. In NO other circumstances should you even consider drawing the weapon.
My gut and experience tell me that most CC holders are, and will be, experienced shooters (at least one person in the class I took was clearly not an experienced shooter; most had no difficulty). Most cops, BTW, are not particularly experienced shooters. I probably shoot more rounds a year (and I don’t shoot THAT much!) than the average officer (I say that having twice taken, and passed easily, the shooting qualification required of officers).
My wager still stands, BTW. Rage has bowed out. Any other takers? First taker gets to buy me the beer!!
And back to the point of this thread in the first place. Proprietors certainly have the right to restrict carry in their place of business. And CC holders have the right to choose to patronize businesses which do not require the weapon to be left, exposed and far more vulnerable to theft and misuse, in the car. I urge that we do so, in a sane, calm manner. Tell the proprietor that you will tend NOT to frequent his establishment until you may do so without making your weapon more vulnerable to theft. As time passes, and the sky does not fall (despite the Eagle’s hysteria), most businesses, hopefully, will come around.
.morg,
The problem with your comparison of CC to Law enforcement is that CC permit holders are not actively engageing in fighting crime as a daily job. CC permit holders are not putting themselves anywhere near the same exposure to criminals as law enforcement people do.
Not only that, but if your comparison were anywhere near true there would be statistics and studies done showing that similar numbers of CC permit holders are involved in the same things law enforcement people are.
The other difference is that law enforcement people are not hiding their guns. They carry them openly and are expected to have them. Criminals know this. CC permit holders do not carry nor do criminals know for sure if someone is or not. This takes away from your comparison of law enforcement having their guns taken from them.
I’m sure that there have been cases where someone’s car was hijacked, and they (or others) were subsequently ran over and killed.Automobiles are inherintly dangerous!!But we are trained in auto safety from DAY ONE, and still the deaths remain.Do we outlaw cars?Somebody COULD possibly take your car and kill you with it.Hmmmmm……….If you like to go for a walk, you could be killed by a loose dog.Do we outlaw dogs, or taking walks?Well, you get the idea.
Kind of tough to legislate for”WHAT IFS”.HA
“My wager still stands, BTW. Rage has bowed out. Any other takers? First taker gets to buy me the beer!!”
Before anyone takes GMC’s wager, I would point out that his conditions require an arrest, charges of a “violent crime,” and a criminal conviction, all within the space of about a year.
I wouldn’t take that bet if they were distributing free UZIs.
Funny thing: I make a pointed observation about human behavior, based on crime statistics and common sense, and you dismiss it as “blind faith.” Yet you make a very specific claim–”that’s the experience of the states with CC”–without the slightest reference to any source. Welcome to the double standard.
Well, hey, I apologize for not uncritically accepting your dogma. I don’t think that way. You could actually convince me, if you even bothered to try.
I am fairly certain the reverse is not true.
I guess you’re assuming I’m the “enemy”–I must be trying to undo the conceal-carry laws–something I have not said or even implied, now or ever. But somehow I’M the one with the agenda.
Uhm, right.
Since I guess I’m supposed to be the loyal opposition, here, have a study:www.irs.princeton.edu/seminars/donohue.pdf
That’s more than YOU’VE done.
Oops. Active link:
http://www.irs.princeton.edu/seminars/donohue.pdf
Rage
Lott and Donohue have quite a history. You can check it out from Lotts perspective at the link below.
I read the Donohue link you provided and was following him right up to the point when he cited the Violence Policy Center as an authoritative source. The VPC is virulently and fraudulently anti gun. They have no credibility.
http://johnrlott.tripod.com/postsbyday/topic-ayresanddonohue.html
Rage:
Try this one as a start; http://www.txchia.org/sturdevant2000.htm
I thought this statement was interesting:
“No male Texas CHL holder was arrested for negligent manslaughter during the 1996 through 2000 period.”
If CC holders were the irresponsible louts some apparantly believe them to be, one would expect just the opposite. But no.
And I’m with Heck. anyone who cites the Violence Policy Center as authority has sacrificed any credibility. Ditto for the Brady Center.
Still no takers? Not even ONE conviction? ONE? Gosh, given the level of hysteria here, I’d think you’d be jumping at the chance!!
Shocking. I thought not.
How ’bout you Randy Scholfield? Care to put your money where your writing is?
Point of order:
Concealed carry. If a carrier willfully flashes his gun without due provocation, is this punishable in some way? This has happened to me in other states on two occasions. Can such folks be turned in? I don’t like the idea of some guy cutting in front of me in line and then flashing his pistol when I object.
I have a challenge for all you who think C/C is just fine and dandy…..Go to your local Walmart and just sit in the entrance and watch the people coming and going….are these the people you want to be toting guns?
JR
“If a carrier willfully flashes his gun without due provocation, is this punishable in some way?”
It’s called Brandishing and in most states with Concealed Carry it’s a crime. It’s a crime in most states period. My guess is that those people who flashed you weren’t carrying legally, just a guess though.
Heck:
I agree; but there is no STATE statute in Kansas on brandishing. Many municipalities have such a statute, however (I think Wichita does). I think I could make a pretty good argument that showing a firearm under circumstances such as JR noted is an aggrevated assault or a criminal threat, both obviously illegal under Kansas law. See KSA 21-3410, 21-3419.
My other concern is with anti-self defense lunatics going ballistic if a CC holder leans over or reaches up, and the butt of a pistol inadvertantly pokes out or “prints” through a t-shirt. Does someone consider that “brandishing?” A conversation I had with JR some time ago would indicate that he did.
And Mary:
Your comment speaks far more to the elitist, condescending attitude you apparantly have toward others, especially those who may shop at WalMart. Have you any evidence that WalMart shoppers are more dangerous than any others?
Consider it this way:In order to carry legally, a person must obtain approved firearm training, apply to his local sheriff, provide his prints, identifying information, and a photograph and have his criminal history run by same sheriff, who may forward a a letter recommending non-approval to the AG for good cause shown (such a letter would almost certainly be respected and said permit denied). At that point the application is sent to the AG, the applicant again has his criminal history run, this time by the KBI, and if approved has his carry status put into the computer for any officer to obtain when his car tag is ran. That person must then go the local driver’s license office and obtain a card identifying them as a CCH holder, either on their DL or on a separate card (I’d highly recommend the latter). This process puts them under the law enforcement microscope and costs approximately $250-$300, not counting the firearm.
By what logical rationale is this person a threat?