Top GOP senators such as John McCain, John Warner and Lindsey Graham are bravely opposing the Bush administration’s creeping moral relativism on torture and the interrogation of prisoners.
As we argue in our editorial on today’s opinion page, the outcome of this debate touches on America’s soul, on our very identity and ideals as Americans.
If any senator should understand what’s at stake in this debate, it’s Kansas Sen. Sam Brownback, who has been a leading conservative champion of human rights abroad, opposing torture in North Korea, Iran and elsewhere.
But so far, he’s been silent on this standoff. Why?
The administration wants Congress to do an end run around the Geneva Conventions and to sanction practices, such as water-boarding, sleep deprivation and “cold cells,” that when practiced in Soviet gulags or North Korean prisons Americans have rightly called “torture.”
Just this week we read of a Canadian terror suspect (in photo) whom the United States “renditioned” to Syria, where he was interrogated and was beaten repeatedly with metal cables.
Turns out he was entirely innocent. What do we say — “Oops”? And what kind of moral authority will America have in the war on terror if we continue to sanction or turn a blind eye to such abusive treatment?
Instead of joining a rush to the bottom, Brownback should join the senators in upholding America’s high ideals.
Posted by Randy Scholfield
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158 Comments
Brownback will be raising that hand of his sky high after the outcome of November elections. He will praise human rights around the world, denounce torture without slamming Bush, then what else I have no idea what he represents. He can blame Hollywood on Dan Glickman. How evil media is, good conservative ploy for some people.
It doesn’t matter, he can say nothing about American torture policies because he’s not going to win the Repub nomination. His inablity to denounce Bush’s torture policies, part of Washington’s political corruption and rubber stampism.
Did that torture of those captured stop the killings in Iraq or Afghanistan? Kill one leader of al queda, another takes that place. New al queda crews sprout every day. The torture stopped plans to attack America, probably not. Delayed criminals planning best it did.
I wonder the hatred of America will lessen in the world after Bush is out of office.
We had the world agreeing with the war in Afghanistan. Then Bush messed up making up reasons to take out Saddam. Of course Saddam needed to be gone but the White House failed to plan keeping Iraq secure.They don’t have enough troops and the war is more crazy than Cheney ever considered. He is the problem. Rumsfeld is his tool.
Should have just killed Saddam in his hole, becuase the trial is a farce and its shameful that he’s still seen and people hear from him. Saddam hanged or shot, big deal, that’s his fate.
The war in Iraq is more than Saddam now. Its on the brink of completely falling apart no matter the elected government. It has no power to control anything in the streets of Iraq. The outrageous bombings of citizens and murder everyday, it just shows we didn’t have enough troops to keep the security.
Since Brownback claims to be such a religious man, there should be no choice but to oppose Bush’s torture (oh I’m sorry – alternative methods) plan.
But I’m sure Sam will do whatever will benefit Sam.
Ah yes…
Nothing but the best jail cell with cable TV for our terrorist friends.
Questions? They don’t need to answer any questions until they have a lawyer present.
And then you wonder why the liberals loose the war on terror.
This is not a police action, it is a war on terror.
It is debatable how much any of the techniques in question are really “torture”
Torture is clasically defined as EXTREME pain.
I would hardly call making someone cold extreme pain. Discomforting, yes.
Sleep deprivation?
News flash, we do this to Marines in boot camp and they call it training. I guess someone needs to go down to Paris Island and stop all the torture going on down there.
And then we come to water boarding, probably the closest thing out of the 3 to even be considered for “torture”
And in reality it is more pshycological than anything else.
Sure, air temp 30 degrees, throw water on someone constantly or by fire hose and keep the lights on or not for days on end.
No need to get knuckles sore. Throw out a shoulder with wild swings. Slaps on the face and chest, flat handed. Pull some hair without yanking it out.
That cordless drill bit spinning toward an eye..but doesn’t go in. Weed whacker works too. That wild noise and spinning things.
Be conservative with torture.
Psychological games and what comes from tortured people, the truth?
Why were some taken to Poland? What happened in secret prisons that was more than psychological and really painful.
Respect John McCain who wants no shady torture procedures on American captured soldiers in the future. The Geneva Convention rules can’t be fiddled with. Vague rules are a wider acceptance, narrow specific rules of torture are harmful, becuase they can be altered by country. Stick the original says McCain.
War on terror has created more terrorists. Accept the war in Iraq as it began after Saddam was captured had no long term planning or realization of people in Iraq were split very far along tribes.
Did the CIA actually prep Cheney and Rumsfeld or was it the slam dunking ideal still going on, how easy it was going to be. The lack of armor, Rumsfeld said, fight with what we have and too many seriously injured. I accept the dead soldiers, war is terrible.
All the talk continues how Iraqi troops are being trained but that’s not complete. Can’t add more troups because the strain on the military and don’t want more targeting to happen by being so obvious as occupier forces.
I support the troops, be safe and come back, I don’t support the Bush war on terror reason or his ability to solve world’s problems. He’s made to many enemies among our friends on the international level.
Cheney really sucks, the madman behind the flawed plan in Iraq anyway.
Nathan,I think Mrage says a lot that’s worth considering. Eloquently, in fact. But you have to do whatever you have to do to survive.
You might not find this funny, but consider laughing anyway. You won’t find this on the Internet; it’s from memory.********************A friend of mine joined this horrible cult. They shaved his head, kept him miles away from family and friends, rousted him out of bed at 5 am, and forced him to listen to bizarre slogans all day. Isn’t there something we can do about this insidious so-called Marine corps?**************************Courtesy of the National Lampoon, circa ‘83 or so. Laugh, jackass. ;-p
Does anybody really know what is going on with these detainees? Is there any documented proof of torture or is it all hearsay and political guesses?
Mrage”He’s made to many enemies among our friends on the international level.”
I have to wonder who you speak of here, the French, The Germans, The Russians?… all of whom were on the take from Saddam? What “friends” do you mean?
Ya know what Heckler and Nathan COMPLETELY avoided mentioning?
See that guy up in the picture? That is an innocent man!
Now Nathan can poo poo torture all he likes. But I wonder why he does not rise to question the detention and torture of an innocent man?
JR
The Canadians told us he was a terrorist and we believed them. Their bad. And yeah, it sucks to be him, so we stop fighting terrorists around the world?
And we believe his story about torture because?? Wouldnt be the first time someone who hated the U.S. lied about something like that.
And as to the definition some people use for torture…nothing compared to the stories a former neighbor had to tell about SEAL training.
John McCain was TORTURED. What some of you people define as torture is less extreme than the hazing I went through as a freshman on my high school football team.
Don’t make them wear panties or have leashes around there necks. Let thme come live here with a lib!This country was made form American blood and guts. Do what ever you have to do to win the war, or let everyone who wants to come live here in and there will never be a USA again. It will be the end of this great country.
The Geneva Convention doesn’t apply to terrorists, since they’re not part of a governmental authority, and don’t wear uniforms.
The idea that if we treat these maniacs ‘humanely’, they’ll stop hating is is foolish at best. Radical Islam, practiced by AlQueda, Hamas, Hezbolla, Islamic Jihad and others, has NO room for anyone who isn’t a radical, extremist Muslim. They’ll murder Jews, Christians, athiests, Hindus, Buddhists and even other Muslims who don’t follow the same extreme ideology.
“John McCain was TORTURED. What some of you people define as torture is less extreme than the hazing I went through as a freshman on my high school football team.”
Uh huh. So why, if you are going to hold McCain out as someone who was tortured, and what the US has been doing as “hazing” (dumbest. comment. ever. by the way, terror detainees are hardly applicants to some American club or organization), does McCain so strongly disagree with the Administration on this issue? The man, as you yourself acknowledge, knows torture. But McCain is with the “libs”. So are Graham and Warner. Disagreeiing with the Bush Administration and Darth Cheney on this issue hardly makes someone liberal. It’s simply an indication of simple decency.
ksagnostic
Why does McCain do a lot of the things he does? Is it principle, is he playing to the MSM like he so frequently does, is it political chess? Who knows. If he thinks it will get him to the White House he’s wrong.
“The Geneva Convention doesn’t apply to terrorists, since they’re not part of a governmental authority, and don’t wear uniforms.
The idea that if we treat these maniacs ‘humanely’, they’ll stop hating is is foolish at best. Radical Islam, practiced by AlQueda, Hamas, Hezbolla, Islamic Jihad and others, has NO room for anyone who isn’t a radical, extremist Muslim. They’ll murder Jews, Christians, athiests, Hindus, Buddhists and even other Muslims who don’t follow the same extreme ideology.”
Two problems.
1) Who the actual terrorists are is not always clear, and there have been several misidentifications on this issue (including, as has been pointed out, innocent people). Also, the line between “terrorist” and “enemy combatant” is not always that clear cut. Witness the Taliban and its clear alliance with Al Queda. As loathsome as the Taliban is, it was in charge of a foreign government we invaded (completely justifiably, in my view, by the way) but as such they would qualify as “enemy combatants” under the Geneva Convention.
2) The reasons for not torturing are not to convince the terrorists to stop hating us, but for ourselves and for others. If we convince the rest of the world, particularly the Islamic world, that we are no better than the terrorists, then we lose the credibility we need to win this war. The world does not operate under the “24″ theory. The evidence for the efficacy of torture is equivacable at best. The way to win the war is to defeat the ideologies behind the terrorists in the first place.
MeThinks some folks here need a refresher course on the type of people we are up against here. If you’ve never watched any of the videos of Americans being beheaded by Islamic Fascists its high time some of you did.
I won’t post the links here, Google it, or e-mail me.
I’m not worried about what the rest of the world thinks. I want to see America safe from these madmen.
BinLadin said that they would win because they love death, and we love life. I say let’s give them death- in spades, and as painfully & slowly as possible.
I wanted to be the all American kid from New York,and I walked in, sat down, I was hung down, brung down, hung up, and allkinds o’ mean nasty ugly things. And I waked in and sat down and they gaveme a piece of paper, said, “Kid, see the phsychiatrist, room 604.”
And I went up there, I said, “Shrink, I want to kill. I mean, I wanna, Iwanna kill. Kill. I wanna, I wanna see, I wanna see blood and gore andguts and veins in my teeth. Eat dead burnt bodies. I mean kill, Kill,KILL, KILL.” And I started jumpin up and down yelling, “KILL, KILL,” andhe started jumpin up and down with me and we was both jumping up and downyelling, “KILL, KILL.” And the sargent came over, pinned a medal on me,sent me down the hall, said, “You’re our boy.”
Didn’t feel too good about it…..Arlo Guthrie
I was wondering how they knew that the bodies that have been found in Bagdad recently were tortured.
Then I heard it on CNN yesterday that they could tell because drill’s had been used on the bodies, starting at the feet and working they’re way up the body.
Hmm, I thought maybe they could tell that they were tortured because they found underwear on their head.Shows what I know.Good luck “talking” with these people.
Heres an idea. Let’s proclaim September 30 the last day of Bush Bashing.
He didn’t stop 911 after 7 months on the job. (Clinton had 7 years)
He hasn’t gotten OBL. (Again, Clinton had 7 years besides who cares someone else will take OBL’s place)
He attacked Irag, when Iran and North Korea were bigger problems (so we wouldn’t be hearing from any of you had he done that?)
He lied to the public. (a politician, LOL)
Well I’m sure the list goes on.But really, WE GET IT.You all hate Bush, got it.You all hate he got us into this war, got it.We’re there now, just hating Bush will not make that go away.
So declare your independence day, make September 30, the last Bush Bashing day.
Starting October 1, start discussing and pointing out all the great things on the Democratic Agenda that will turn this country around and back on the right track.
Only a few more days until the election, you can really use it to attract the voters.
Share it with the rest of us. Tell us how the Majority House and Senate Dems will do it.
SHARE THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY AGENDA, NO MORE BUSH BASHING
Let me see…
We shouldn’t make terrorists cold, loose sleep, or think they are drowning because they won’t follow the geneva conventions.
NEWS FLASH
Our soldiers are already being beaten to death, heads chopped off, killed, hung, etc…
What is it that we are so worried about them doing because of what Bush is proposing?
Everyone is sitting around saying if we do this no one will respect our soldiers.
Um, when have they ever?
So we lower the standard.DEE DEE DEE
We are supposed to be the shining standard for human rights.Soon we will be no better than the countries we fought for most of the 20th century.Secret prisons, arrests and “detentions” without charges.No evidence presented before being found guilty.Sound more like Moscow in the 1950’s??
Well put Tracy, I sat here for twenty min tryign to think of someway of putting that exact fact…
When we get anywhere close to killing millions of people, ACTUALLY torturing people, or locking up thousands of people FOREVER in secret prisons you can start to compare us to other people.
Until then lets save the slippery slope, making people cold…loose sleep…and think they are drowning, is making us horrible people routine.
How do you know we haven’t done that, Nathan?
That’s the problem, isn’t it. We have the Liar-in-Chief in the White House. The man who said, I don’t care who actually won in Florida, just make sure it’s me. The man who said, Brownie, you’re doing a heck of a job. The man who said we will attack any country that harbors terrorists–except for apparently Pakistan which is harboring Bin Laden. The man who said tons and tons of WMD’s in Iraq and mushroom cloud over an American city.
Now he tells us we don’t torture when we have guys like this one (and many others) telling us the exact opposite.
How many lies do you have to be told before you stop believing the liar?
Haven’t had the chance so,WELCOME Tony.
“Just this week we read of a Canadian terror suspect (in photo) whom the United States “renditioned” to Syria, where he was interrogated and was beaten repeatedly with metal cables.Turns out he was entirely innocent.”
Most of the inmates at Abu Ghraib turned out to be innocent too. Most of the prisoners held without trial and without charges are believed by many to be innocent too.
What happens to those people when they are returned back to society? And their family? And they’re friends?
How would you feel? What would YOU do?
Fine. Charge ‘em as terrorists, THEN torture them.
Nathan, those are not the things I listed, nor are they things I am concerned about.
CapnAmerica,
It could be possible that Howard Dean is secretly negotiating a deal with aliens from outerspace to sell out the American people.
How do you know he is not doing that?
LOL
And you try to bring logic to the other discussion… LOL
First of all, the inmates in Abu Gharib were abused by a bunch of retarded Army guards. It was not sanctioned torture.
Don’t let that stand in your way of trying to use anything as an example to prove your false assertions to be true.
We’re worried about our image in the world? Last I heard people are still risking their life to get here and try for a better life. Apparently they havent gotten the message that we SUCK.
Tracy,website or link please for the Democrat agenda.
Dear Gene,
The democrats don’t have an agenda. What they have are a bunch of buzz words put into a few feel good statements in the hopes they can fool the voters one more time.
Hell, they don’t even mention the war on terror or Iraq! Why? Because they can’t win on the real issues.
http://www.democrats.org/agenda.html
Hank
Gene, here’s a brief overview.When I have more time I’ll post the entire thing (link).
http://www.democrats.gov/rs.html
Well well well
Either Nathan and Heckler have a new nic or three or the asylum has let out.
I’m coming to think there should be 2 Americas.
I do NOT want to be part of one that includes Heckler, Nathan, Gene, justme, marshal, or any other sick freak that advocates torture.
Truly you people make me sick.
What our own military does this kind of thing to recruits? You are defending this?
Do you start to get the idea why I have told the military to keep its mitts off my kid?
Nathan, dude, did you read the post above?
Canadian citizen kidnapped by American agents forcibly flown to Syria and whipped with metal cables . . .
That’s not a “couple of retards.” That’s a systematic plan that has been used on who knows how many suspects.
You either support torture or you don’t.
I don’t.
The link I provided above was intended to show this.
THE DEMOCRATIC PLAN
21st Century MilitaryTo Ensure Unparalleled Military Strength and Honor our Troops, we will:Rebuild a state-of-the-art military by making the needed investments in equipment and manpower so that we can project power to protect America wherever and whenever necessary.Guarantee that our troops have the protective gear, equipment, and training they need and are never sent to war without accurate intelligence and a strategy for success.Enact a GI Bill of Rights for the 21st Century that guarantees our troops — active, reserve, and retired — our veterans, and their families receive the pay, health care, mental health services, and other benefits they have earned and deserve.Strengthen the National Guard, in partnership with the nation’s Governors, to ensure it is fully manned, equipped and available to meet missions at home and abroad.
War on TerrorTo Defeat Terrorists and Stop the Spread of Weapons of Mass Destruction, we will:Eliminate Osama Bin Laden, destroy terrorist networks like al Qaeda, finish the job in Afghanistan and end the threat posed by the Taliban.Double the size of our Special Forces, increase our human intelligence capabilities, and ensure our intelligence is free from political pressure.Eliminate terrorist breeding grounds by combating the economic, social, and political conditions that allow extremism to thrive; lead international efforts to uphold and defend human rights; and renew longstanding alliances that have advanced our national security objectives.Secure by 2010 loose nuclear materials that terrorists could use to build nuclear weapons or “dirty bombs.”Redouble efforts to stop nuclear weapons development in Iran and North Korea.
Homeland SecurityTo Protect America from Terrorism and Natural Disasters, we will:Immediately implement the recommendations of the independent, bipartisan 9/11 Commission including securing national borders, ports, airports and mass transit systems.Screen 100% of containers and cargo bound for the U.S. in ships or airplanes at the point of origin and safeguard America’s nuclear and chemical plants, and food and water supplies.Prevent outsourcing of critical components of our national security infrastructure — such as ports, airports and mass transit — to foreign interests that put America at risk.Provide firefighters, emergency medical workers, police officers, and other workers on the front lines with the training, staffing, equipment and cutting-edge technology they need.Protect America from biological terrorism and pandemics, including the Avian flu, by investing in the public health infrastructure and training public health workers.
IraqTo Honor the Sacrifice of Our Troops, we will:Ensure 2006 is a year of significant transition to full Iraqi sovereignty, with the Iraqis assuming primary responsibility for securing and governing their country and with the responsible redeployment of U.S. forces.Insist that Iraqis make the political compromises necessary to unite their country and defeat the insurgency; promote regional diplomacy; and strongly encourage our allies and other nations to play a constructive role.Hold the Bush Administration accountable for its manipulated pre-war intelligence, poor planning and contracting abuses that have placed our troops at greater risk and wasted billions of taxpayer dollars.
Energy IndependenceTo Free America from Dependence on Foreign Oil, we will:Achieve energy independence for America by 2020 by eliminating reliance on oil from the Middle East and other unstable regions of the world.Increase production of alternate fuels from America’s heartland including bio-fuels, geothermal, clean coal, fuel cells, solar and wind; promote hybrid and flex fuel vehicle technology and manufacturing; enhance energy efficiency and conservation incentives
And here’s that link again to the video showing the effects of American use of chemical weapons against civilians in Fallujah:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1134673789364675735
Thank you Tracy, I’ll take a look
Yup, Tracy, this is the sticking point for the Bush-facsists:
“Ensure 2006 is a year of significant transition to full Iraqi sovereignty”
BushCo never wanted and made sure that Iraq never got anything close to self-determination or soverignty.
You can’t have control and democracy at the same time.
Bush wants control.
Gene. Forget the link.It didn’t go where I thought it would.Read the post.Hank says the dems don’t even mention this war on terror.If you read my post you will see that my friend Hank is mistaken.Possibly he’s pressed for time right now and didn’t look very far.I’m really busy, but found it anyway.
Hank
The democrats DO have an agenda.
Democrats have fought to secure our ports. Bush tried to sell them.
Hank please don’t lie.
JRIf you can’t tell the difference between sleep deprivation and drills I don’t know what to tell you.
This is just like the illegal immigration.
If you want the borders enforced, YOU ARE A RACIST.
If you want the ability to extract information by sleep deprivation, standing for long periods, temperature extremes, uncomfortable positions, YOU ARE FOR ALL TORTURE.
JRIf you can’t tell the difference between sleep deprivation and drills I don’t know what to tell you.
This is just like the illegal immigration.
If you want the borders enforced, YOU ARE A RACIST.
If you want the ability to extract information by sleep deprivation, standing for long periods, temperature extremes, uncomfortable positions, YOU ARE FOR ALL TORTURE.
Dear JR,
I linked to the DNC’s agenda. (at least the one made as a result of this week’s focus groups) It is the official agenda of the DNC.
Hank
Thanks again Tracy,
I guess I still don’t understand why you all are not pushing this agenda instead of the continued Bush Bashing.
I would like a little more information of how they intend to do this. Kinda goes back to the whole John Kerry thing. I have a plan but I’m not letting you know what it is until you elect me.
The first one I wonder about is, how do you immediatly double the number of special forces WITHOUT lowering the standards? Lower standards, gets people killed.
Whether you like it or not the big scene at the end of the “A few good men” movie by Jack Nicholsons character was dead on correct.
We do have people in this world who want to kill us simply because we are Americans. Whether it is because of our freedoms, our support of Israel, don’t matter to them. They have been told to hate us, that we are the problem and that is enough for weak minded people.
Dear Hank,What I posted is also official and from the DNC.It should address issues not addressed in the link you provided.
Gene, I can’t disagree with anything you just posted.Hopefully they can accomplish some of this, if not all.IMHO, the first thing that needs done is to change this culture of corruption that is not confined to a party. The repubs have been more corrupt lately because they’ve had the power. If they would quit covering their own asses, and come up with some MEANINGFUL reform, well that would be a start.I just don’t see it happening during GW’s term.
That is so true Tracy,
Its happened on both sides of the aisle.
How many presidents and congresses have we had since the Oil Embargo in the 70’s and the best we can come up with, is that we need to drill for more oil. Geez.
Hybrid cars should have been out in the early 80’s. Who knows where we could have been by now.
And Gene–Have you caught the BUZZ about the documentary:Who Killed The Electric Car
Check it out man!!Fricken gov’t tryin to push hydrogen on us becauseHYDROGEN MFG IS COMPLETELY DEPENDENT ON FOSSIL FUELS!!
Crooked bastards.
Interesting…
Uh Gene?Maybe you did not know that one of Al Gore’s top initiatives was to make the internal combustion engine obsolete in 25 years.
JR
What is your definition of torture?
Have you never read about the training that our various Special Forces go through, Particularly the training they go through in case they are captured?
I sure as hell don’t want to live in YOUR America JR, because that wouldnt BE America.
JR,
You obviosly have no idea what it takes to be tough, trained and disciplined.
Marines are trained to deal with little to no sleep, because in war you don’t always get a chance to lay down for a full 8 hours when people are shooting at you.
Marines are trained to deal with cold, because sometimes we have to fight in places like the chosen reservoir. Look it up to see what us real American heros do if you don’t already know.
Marines are trained to swim and overcome their fear of drowning, because we are an amphibious fighting force that has to be in the water sometimes.
What you question is exactly what makes us the best trained fighting force in the world.
I have learned about things like HONOR, COURAGE, AND COMMITTMENT.
The things I have learned in the military have made me a better man.
You might not want your son in the military, and that is fine, but it is not because the military is bad. It is for your own personal reasons.
Torture has never been a source of reliable intelligence. I can’t imagine why it is still practiced.
I did not know the things we did to OUR OWN servicemen until I read them here. I am not much surprised though. Part of military training is to destroy individuality and self worth. I should imagine torturous methods are useful for that.
Heckler? If I had my way, you and I would have our wish.I want nothing to do with the America you wish for. I find common ground with you on almost nothing.
JR
And just what is wrong with the internal combustion engine. It’s a remarkably usefull and flexible portable power source. And the more we learn to use electronic fuel control and emmission controls the better they get.
The things some European countries are doing with the diesel engine are truly remarkable. And with the low sulfur fuel that will soon be available in the US you will soon be seeing them here. 3.5 litre turbo-diesels in mid-sized sedans getting 40 mpg. with power to spare, and with lower emmisions than most gasoline engines!!
Who needs a hybrid, too impractical until they come up with better batteries.
JR
Your “America” sounds like Sweden or Finland. You should go check them out. Oh I forgot you can’t get in there. They’re economies suck so bad there arent enough jobs. Oh well, there’s always Cuba.
JR,
You call it torture. I don’t.
Torture is a subjective term. I could think that eating onions was torture at one point in my life.
I thought my father sitting me in a chair until I finished my plate of food was torture when I was a kid.
Lindsey Graham made a good point the other day. Graham is the Senator from South Carolina who served as a military attorney in Afghanistan while that conflict was happening. I believe it was one of the few times (maybe ever) that a Senator was serving in the military while actively holding office.
Any way… he pointed out that Al Qaeda will not be the only enemy we ever face in the future. He has been decidedly against reinterpreting the Geneva Conventions. He is a practicing military attorney, which might give him some expertise that is above what the average poster here knows. Lastly he cannot be summarily dismissed because of his political ambitions.
The stuff I read suggests that Bush is beside himself with anger that Graham is opposing him on this topic.
One last thing that I would like to ask our rightwing poster friends, are the choices really:1) let Bush use his alternative methods, or 2) all interrogation of our detainees will stop? Are you buying that false dichotomy?
Let’s not be naive. What we would agree is torture has occured in about every US war. The difference now is that it is nearly institutionalized in our procedures. Meaning it is more common than not, at this point. I believe Bush is trying to give himself and others cover for their abuses — and making what he is already doing standard procedure. Graham and McCain are saying “no” to Bush’s request for a blank check. I support them 100%
Dear JR,
Let’s take this out to its logical conclusion:
Torture does not result in reliable information.
However, our agressive interogation procedures have resulted in very reliable information.
Therefore, our aggressive interogation procedures aren’t torture.
Hank
Since good ol, moral Christians like Todd Tiahrt and Pat Roberts support the use of torture against foreigners, how soon until those loving fundies decide torture is good enough for U.S. citizens?
Sleep deprivation and cold cells are common in most city and county jails in America. The headline Randy should have written for his article is as follows.
TERRORIST BILL OF RIGHTS SUPPORTED BY MEDIA; Media Hounds McCain and Graham Agree Terrorists Need Special Protection For Jihad
“Torture” is relative, isn’t it?Shouldn’t the word mean something more than a Frat House hazing? Shouldn’t “torture” be far worse than Marine Corps Boot Camp?Our Marines, Green Barrets, Navy Seals and other Special Forces indure sleep depravation as part of their training. They also endure forced training with packs and rifles and water, learning to swim while fully clothed. Drowning certainly goes through your mind!Randy, I wish you would actually READ the Geneva Conventions.Non uniformed enemey combatants are not even covered by any literal reading of the Geneva Conventions.This is not a “brave act” by the show boating Senator McCain. John McCain, for all his Vietnam POW experience, is now nothing more than a cheap, headline grabbing RINO (Republican in Name Only.)This actually seals McCains defeat on the national stage. McCain knows he can get media face-time by picking on other Republicans. He has done it for years. We are all tired of his ego driven stunts. (Don’t forget, McCain is the guy that would not let the Boeing scandels go, even after the wrong-doers had rightly been punished. Wichitans should think long and hard before giving McCain any support).We have already stopped several attacks on our country through these non-lethal interrogation methods, methods that leave no permanent bodily damage.As the mushroom clouds rise over US cities, Randy, will you feel superior?As the Nerve Gas makes people spasm like roaches after being sprayed with Raid, will you smile about our superiority over the barbarians of the world?Non-uniformed combatants, under the Geneva Convention, can be shot as spys.If we don’t shoot them right away, we can hold all POW’s until hostilities are over, without trial.The problem is, these people are not official soldiers of any state.Their terrorist organizations never signed the Geneva Conventions.They chop off heads now. They poison people now. They rape women in front of thier families now. How is granting THEM the honor and dignity which is supposed to be reserved only for those in uniform going to protect us?You are forcing Bush to release all prisoners to a friendly Moslem state, so that they can do the interrogations.Water boarding or the whip?Loose your sleep or loose your hands?I think most of the detainees would rather be in Gitmo than in a cell in Saudi or Egypt.—-Keep in mind: the most common form of death in Gaza is “honor killing.”Honor killing is the brutal murder, usually by beating or stabbing, of a Moslem woman for bringing “shame” on her family.Honor killing accounts for more total deaths of Palestinians than all the Israeli bullets combined.We are dealing with very primative cultures. How will terrorists, who treat their own women this way, going to be swayed by the US being “nice” to them?—–The Geneva Conventions were written for regular military personel that are captured in regular uniforms who represent a particular country.To use the words of “common article three” is it “degrading” or “humiliating” to allow a woman to interview a detainee?Will we allow the sexist culture of the MidEast to define a treaty that our enemey never signed?
JW–
Terrorist DO have rights. They have the right to be proven as terrorists before they are treated as terrorists, for instance.
That’s what we’re not doing to the poor SOB pictured above. Or the thousands held without trial at Guantanemo Bay.
Hey, Paul–
How about getting kidnapped, held without trial, and whipped with metal cables?
Why don’t you deal with the facts of the case instead of the straw man “frat house” sh*t?
“We do have people in this world who want to kill us simply because we are Americans.”
Gene, you are totally wrong.
OBL said himself that there is a reason he attacks the US and not Sweden. The US stationed troops in Saudi Arabia.
It’s not as exciting as believing “they hate us for our freedoms,” but it is true.
People do things for reasons. Even terrorists.
Understand the reasons, and you might have a chance at defusing the hate and attacks.
We’ve seen what bombs and tanks can do–3,000 American soldiers dead, 1.1 billion a week, and no end in sight.
Reports of attacks on America are just as false as the propaganda which the Bush administration puts out in Europe and the Middle East with false newspaper reporting.
They do not tell the truth about anything which might impede their plans for a world dictatatorship.
Why bother?
CapnYour “solution” sounds like surrender.We should just do whatever the terrorists want?
“Honor killing is the brutal murder, usually by beating or stabbing, of a Moslem woman for bringing “shame” on her family.”
Any verification of that allegation Paul?
” the most common form of death in Gaza is “honor killing.”"
Left out that sentence …
Yeah, I want to surrender, Paul. I want to surrender to terrorists.
Sheesh, how about we don’t do stupid stuff like stationing troops all around the world where they don’t belong?
That would be a good start.
Don’t you understand capn? If we cannot invade anywhere and anytime we want then our rights are infringed upon! Didn’t you get the memo?
I see Paul has even brought out the mushroom clouds while I was gone.That dude can really escalate a sitchee-ayshun quick like!
CapnYou make my point, the man in question was not water boarded or sleep deprived, rather mild US interrogation techniques, he was handed over to Syria.Syria, no doubt, had reasons to request him.I am making the case, here, that US treatment is better than foreign, especially Arab and Moslem treatment of prisoners.Do you propose that we NOT hand over detainees to other countries, ever? Do you propose that extradition to countries that practice terrorism be halted? How does this help in our international cooperation efforts?
Paul, WE THE PEOPLEwant our country back.Why are you against that?Why do you hate us Americans?
TracyNuclear technology is older than transister radios, older than Beta-max, older than 8-track tapes, older than microwave ovens.It is only a matter of time until terrorists get a nuclear device.Your head in the sand won’t make that truth go away.
Paul, Paul, Paulie.Nobody here that I’ve read is against water-boarding, sleep dep, etc.What we ARE AGAINST is things like secret prisons, “rendition”, unwarranted searches, detention without seeing evidence, MUST I GO ON?This shit ain’t just for international men of mystery,WHAT IF THEY GOT YOU “BY MISTAKE”You wouldn’t be squeelin’ like a stuck pig??HUH?Come on big boy.Squeel.
TracyDont flatter yourself!While I think opinion polls are mostly for cowards like Clinton who have no core beliefs, the fact is that Bush has majority support on the detainee issue.You dont like Bush? That is your right, but many who don’t like what Bush is doing actually are more conservative than me.Bush’s numbers go up the more aggressive he gets, what does that tell you?
Paul- Then why do they go right back down? What does that tell you?? A hiccup, maybe?
You’re way over the top fella.WTF makes you think me or anybody else here is in favor of whackos with bombs.Don’t put words out here that are just plain phony and stooopud.Damn.Glad you ain’t got a bomb.Sheesh.
That tells me that you and your ilk are only sheeple, mouthpieces without enough balls to face the truth about this fucked up mess.
TRACY – Paul DID squeal like a stuck pig complaining about HIS “wrongful arrest”.
By the way – just what IS waterboarding and did they do it to Paul?
Terrorists will probably get nuclear material the same way they got the anthrax they used several years ago – from poorly secured military facilities. Right now there is lots of old Soviet material floating around the entrepenurial black markets.
Can you lefties say, conversion to islam. Good then you won’t have a problem with your new friends the jihadists!
What compels Paul to go to desperate lengths to further prove how much of a moron he is. He equates a person who voluntarily joined the US military and it’s training as the same as a civilian being dragged off the street and tortured. Let’s see the difference, one volunteered to be put in the situation and one didn’t have a choice. As we’ve already seen with the photos of torture the Iraqi civilians aren’t just being sleep deprived.
Is torture so vague that Paul wouldn’t know what torture is if he was subjected to it? Could I hook electrodes up to his testicles and shock him while holding his head under water and he’d simply be confused that he was being tortured? Is Paul really that stupid?
When his hero Bush said Saddam was so evil because he was torturing his citizens did Paul stand up and argue that Bush was being vague about what torture was?
Did Paul have a confused look on his face when Iraqi civilians died because of torture by the hands of Americans?
Does Paul hate Americans so much that he doesn’t have a problem with Americans being captured, tortured, and executed under mock trials where the accused isn’t allowed to see the evidence against him?
Again Paul, why do you masturbate yourself silly over the prospect of people living in misery?
What the fuck is wrong with you Paul?
jw, you are soooo brilliant!!How long you been thinkin’ that one up?
Ben, ooooh, Ben,what wrongful arrest?details, I cry.DETAILS, MY MAN.
JW-Awesome- you must be as deep as saran-wrap to produce such inciteful conclusions!
Don’t you know TRACY? Bill Clinton and Janet reno went after him.
They did?For what?(damn, I feel like the straight man, waitin’ on the punch line)wait for it…….
OR stuff.
I see the despicable Paul F Rosell has weighed in.
He registers about 3 and 3/4 ounces on the debate scale.
I wonder if Paul will tell us of HIS arrest.
Hows about it Paul? Don’t you have some sympathy for this man who was wrongfully arrested, detained and ultimately tortured?
No OF COURSE you do not.
IOKIYAAR
Doug and the rest of you.How on Earth do you expect to have any credibility as proponents of “peace” when you show nothing but disrespect in your comments?I admit I wonder what is wrong with you, but I do so out of profound dismay over your obvious lack of any survival instincts.We are not in a tennis match.We are at war.—-Go back in history and look at what the British Generals said about the tactics of the American Revolutionaries.We did not stand in formations and let them shoot us, we stood behind trees and fired from cover and attacked without warning.We were, however, in uniform, as were the Redcoats.Brittain lost the Revolutionary war, and the War of 1812, in large measure because they refused to adapt.Brittain was playing a kind of suicidal tennis, a “gentlemans war.”America was, at that time, fighting for her very life.Today, you want to impose rules on the United States that our adversaries will not follow, do not respect, and never agreed to to follow.Today, you want the United States to commit suicide.Furthermore, your debate with me is far, far from peaceful or diplomatic.
What movie did you get that version of history from, Paul?
You are so full of sh*t, you squish when you walk . . .
Paul – just as America was fighting for its life against the brits so the occupied countries are fighting for THEIR lives. By the way, the British also were attacked by ununiformed civilians who were just pissed off that they were there.
Fighting a war of occupation against a population that does not want to be occupied ends up dehumanizing both sides.
CapnCIA Director Tenent told W that WMD’s in Iraq was a “slam dunk”Tenent was appointed by Bill Clinton, he was a hold over from the Democrats.Did Tenent “lie?”
Please note that Ben agrees with my version of American History and Capn America disagrees.By the way Ben, I disagree with you on the subject of “occupation”US occupation of Japan and Germany has gone rather well, dont you think?Of course, the wherewolf terrorists in Germany continued to kill Americans and German “collaborators” for about 7 years after Hitler died.But we stuck it out, didnt we?
Not quite Paul – I noted that there were many ‘ununiformed’ resisters to the Brits.
Care to substantiate your wherwolf claims? Were they significant or just a few Tim McVeighs out there? We were NOT being massively resisted as we are in Iraq.
Actually, Paul, your “werewolves of Berlin,” your American guerrillas won the war, and Tenent’s “slam dunk” statement are all in error.
German werewolves were never even a minor problem. Tenet never said “slam dunk.” And I just don’t think you know enough about American history to say anything intelligent about the American Revolution.
I think what won the American Revolution was Washington’s victory at Yorktown with regular troops. And the massive aid of the cowardly surrender monkeys, the French in blocking ports etc.
I like how the cons keep saying ‘the libs want us to loose [sic] the war on terror;’ uhh, no. Actually YOUR team is doing a bang-up job of that while we speak.
I also don’t understand how us compromising our national ideals and moral superiority will ‘win’ the war, either in Iraq or on terror. It will do nothing but make us look worse than we already do to the rest of the world. Oh, but that’s right, the cons don’t care about allies, ‘we don’t need no stinkin’ allies.’ Such tough guys. Senator Nathan, Paul, and Heckler are probably posting from Baghdad on their breaks. Yeah.
Once again, this issue is just further confirmation that so-called ‘conservatism’ is nothing more a mental illness.
I believe the ‘Minute Men’ were a major factor in winning the Revolution. The other side had a thing about marching in formation, and being sitting (marching) ducks. We’re kind of like the other side aren’t we?
Republicans who don’t like McCain, so what. We got Bush and friends the world doesn’t like. The ditched war politicans eager to wage it and torture captured regardless of rules. Even terrorists need human rights. How are they worse than criminals in America, we have terrorists here.
The one party rule can’t be allowed again. I’m promoting the flip, cross representation in the White House. Both parties represented on the cabinet staff. Better to represent America’s views. Ability to hire from both parties for appointed jobs.
The two parties can try to rule Congress, but the White House has to be more diverse politically represented. McCain/Obama seems really reasonable to me.
I think the world would say, at least a leader in McCain has understanding about war. Obama makes a difference image of the White House because he’s part African, a country that needs focus from the White House policies. Some of the war on terror is in Africa, always has been. He’s young politically too without a damning record.
Make it happen, somebody. I hate the parties both on their own. Cross politicans believing in both is a moderate. So what their label, its possible to work together on legislation. The split now along party lines, rubber stamping of failed policies is making a joke of Congress. They spent 72 days in office, the most less time ever. No wonder war legislation isn’t done. No immigration bill. Nothing!
They suck being seperate political groups and why people don’t vote.
We get one viewed politicans that harm the country.
I am SO GLAD Paul brought up the American revoulution!
Paul? On the matter of our fighters in that Revolution, you say”
“We were, however, in uniforms, as were the Redcoats”
Shit Paul do you know anything substantial about anything? Are you just an idiot savant that knows a very little bit about everthing?
No Paul you are just a shill.
Are you familiar with the real story of the “Boston Massacre” Paul? Unarmed (except for rocks and insults) colonists accosted 4 British regulars. As the mob grew, the British soldiers began to fear for their lives. They opened fire. A few colonists were killed.
Oh but by the time the story got out, it was a British atrocity! Illustrations of Americans put against a wall and shot were circulated though this was far from a true picture of the event. Stories of this war crime seared the colonies and galvanized them to action! The individual colonies were unified as never before.
Now Paul? What do you think the story of the innocent man arrested, detained and tortured is going to generate not just among those already fighting us but those who are thinking on it?Is that gonna win us hearts and minds?
And the knowledge that the supreme commander of the most powerful nation on the planet is trying to subvert the Geneva convention? How many enemies will that make us?
Steve, you bring up a very good point.Terrorism is a military tactic. It has been used since there have been wars, and even employed by the American colonists fighting to win independance from a much larger, stronger force in the Revolutionary war.
A “war on terror” is like a “war on carpet bombing” or a “war on trench fighting.”
I have never heard anyone in the leadership of our country, or any other give identify who are enemy is other than terrorists. Since a terrorist is someone who employs the tactic of terrorism, saying we are “fighting terrorists” does not identify our opponent.
Not having a clearly defined opponent makes it impossible to tell when that opponent has been defeated, not to mention hard to know who to shoot at. By failing to disclose a specific enemy, the USA, specifically the Bush administration, has set itself up for much doubt on the purpose of the war.
Anyone that supports Bush and the war care to try to define “the terrorists” in a manner so I can know who to shoot at?
Secure the Ports?
“Fixed fortifications are a monument to the arrogance of man!”George Patton.
We have to make life unpredictable for the terrorists, of course, but there is no way we can play defense and win this war.We have to kill terrorists, nothing else will really do the job.
I have a very strong suspicion that what Democrats want, when they say they want to “secure the ports” is more Teamster and Longshoreman jobs. Democrats would also like to increase the price of imports. Notice, I have not made a value judgement here, I am just pointing out that motives dont always match rhetoric.
I would agree that more searches would be in order, but we are really just looking for a “needle in a haystack” most of the time.
Unless, of course, waterboarding or loud music or cold or lack of sleep is successful, once again, in directing us to the right port or the right cargo ship to search.
When countries concentrate on fixed fortifications, or on defense, those countries will loose. Look at France and the Maginot line.
JRDo you have ANY survival instincts at all? Is there any past armed conflict that you feel was justified on the part of the United States?Do you always side with our enemies?Many of the terrorists now in Iraq come from outside Iraq, yet you push the myth that Bush “created” these terrorists.”He who picks the field of battle wins the war” Sun Tzu, The Art of War. We are killing the enemy in Iraq. If we werent in Iraq, many of those terrorists would be here, in America.The enemy is the enemy.America did not create Nazis.America did not create Imperial Japan.America did not create blood thirsty Stalinist or Maoist Communism.America did not create Moslem extremists.JR, if your arguments held any weight at all, why dont the Japenese hate us today for Hiroshima and Nagisaki?Why dont the Germans hate us for Dresden?You are a coward trying to come up with a practical reason to dismiss your own personal failures.Yes, there are honest people who disagree with Bush, who I would still view as patriots, though wrong headed.You, on the other hand, have already said you would “hold the basket” for my beheading. (As much as I pity you for your lack of manhood, I would sacrifice my life to protect you from an unjust punishment, that is what makes us different, pal).You do not have the courage to defend freedom, so you hide your cowardice in false concerns for “peace” or “human rights.”How can you be “passive” about me being sent to the guillotine, yet argue against armed conflict against terrorists and terrorist supporters?—-As for your son and yourself:”It is a pardoxical truth, Those who can think of nothing worth dying for have nothing worth living for. What is life without honor, freedom and self respect?”
Nathan understands what I am saying.You do not.Not until you have put your life on the line for something will you understand what is really important.
BenYou requested a link on the Post WW2 Nazi Werewolves:
http://www.discussanything.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-69950.html
Way to go Paul and just completely avoid the issue. It proves once again how much of a moron you are. You expect us to be civil but YOU ARE ADVOCATING THE TORTURE OF AMERICANS. Get your head out of your self-righteous ass.
Oh and Paul, remember your history. Americans stood in formation against the British and got their asses slaughtered. These were militia going against a trained military and they were losing so they adapted. Thankfully the French fought most of the war and saved our ass (then Rethuglicans like you turned around and insulted them).
We don’t need history lessons from someone who is absoulutely clueless about history. Keep in mind recent events like when American soldiers were captured in China. China followed the Geneva convention and didn’t torture them but held them in nice conditions until they could be sent back to America. Paul, you would have been more that giddy had China tortured American soldiers that were spying on that nation wouldn’t you? Or how about the first Iraqi invasion when Saddam had American civilians in his keep. Rather than torture them he kept them protected and peacefully released them back to America. You would prefer to had those civilians tortured. Let’s go back to the Korean War when thousands of American soldiers were captured. Many were tortured, but you had absolutely no problem with this because they were simply American soldiers and we all know how you hate the American military.
So quit avoiding the question Paul and tell us really why you hate America and the American military so much you anti-American coward.
Paul:
Proving a point by posting a forum link makes you an asshat, and a specious and unreliable asshat at that.
That’d be like someone quoting you via link as proof of a point. Or quoting me. Or quoting anyone. Forums may inadvertantly contain hard facts, but this is not the rule. Pick a hard, static source to reference or consider yourself marginalized by your own lack of credibility.
Now Hank, about drawing your LOGICAL CONCLUSIONS:
Your argument does not take the form of any standard and accepted argument. Let us set up our lemmas:
A: It is torture.B: It produces reliable information.C: It is an aggressive interrogation technique.
And our symbols:
-> If/Then: A -> B reads “If A then B.”
~ Not. If I have to explain this, I’ll cry.
.: Therefore. If this were a math problem, this is your “equals.”
You phrased your argument in this form:
A -> ~BC -> B.: C -> ~A
Which, through a minor proof which I will spare you, is cogent, EXCEPT that one of your lemmas is NOT an axiom. Meaning, that:
We say that ALL TORTURE produces NO RELIABLE INFORMATION.
We, however, can only say that SOME AGGRESSIVE INTERROGATION TECHNIQUES produce RELIABLE INFORMATION.
You cannot prove this argument with a non-absolute lemma. Your argument is logically fallacious. If you said that ALL AGGRESSIVE INTERROGATION TECHNIQUES produce RELIABLE INFORMATION (meaning no matter what I did that was an aggressive technique, it always got me reliable information) then it is in the form of a Hypothetical Syllogism and is easily proven. It’s a three-step proof, and all you have to do is factor out two negatives in the implication. As it stands, consider yourself disproven, at least on the front that you are the logic master. I have 13 college hours dedicated to the subject. You created a logical fallacy.
By the way, if you’re looking it up, it’s the fallacy of Illicit Major (mentioning all of something in a conclusion when referencing only some of something in the premise) or Fallacy of Accident (applying a generalization where an exception applies… meaning that the success of these techniques is an exception and not a rule. And by this, I mean in the LOGICAL sense. If 60% of the time it produces one result and 40% the other, it is still a case of exception.)
I’m starting to wonder if the CIA has refused to put their agents at risk on Bush’s word any longer and have demanded legal protections, else he can do his own torturing! Naw, bush doesn’t care about covering anyone’s ass except his own.
Well said Doug and Postal.
And my little dog Paul is barking at me again.
Paul? I have a Shih Tzu with more balls, dignity and courage than you.
You are busted here just as you are always busted because there is nothing to you but an empty shill. (That is not a misspell)
Paul quoted George C Scott in the movie “Patton”! Hey I’m not surprised. The other day he gave a link to a right wing chat room for a source!
Why am I not surprised that Paul would equate port security with as a union attempt to generate jobs? Oh that’s right, bush wanted to sell the security of our ports. bush is our great protector though! Questions about his abject failure to secure our ports must come from union mal-contents!
And Paul devoted two whole posts to me!
I will ask him a THIRD time.
Paul? YOU were once arrested yes? You don’t have to tell us why if you are ashamed. Just tell us about how you were able to “clear” yourself and how you have NO SYMPATHY OR CONCERN for the man who is the subject of this thread. He did not have the opportunity you did. YOUR president is responsible for the wrongful arrest, imprisonment and torture of an innocent man. Why don’t you want to talk about that?
You DO wanna talk about me. That’s fine. I’m sure your opinion of carries weight with 3 or 4 other posters who I also have absolutely no respect for.
So let’s take you apart as usual.
you said:
“JRDo you have ANY survival instincts at all.”
Yeah Paul I do. I post about the border and the immigration problem. I never see you do that. I don’t wonder why that is. YOU don’t give a shit about American working people or the future of this country. That is why you sold out your union. Paul’s world of concern ends at Pauls wallet.
“Do you always side with our enemies?”
Who is “our” in that question? Do I side against you and bush and the agenda that is destroying this country? ABSOLUTELY!
I’m concerned with making this nation have fewer enemies. I am not like you Paul. I make no profit on irrational fear and war.
You say:
“Many of the terrorists now in Iraq come from outside Iraq, yet you push the myth that Bush “created” these terrorists.”
Well congratulations dumbass! You just proved my point!
And those terrorists are going to Iraq…..why?
Sheesh kicking your ass is even easier when you bend over and invite me to do it! I’m enjoying the hell out of it! Let’s continue.
“We are killing the enemy in Iraq.”
Yes Paul we are. We are also killing a lot of innocent people. Then more people get pissed off and become “the enemy”. Will it be enough for you if we kill everyone? We wouldn’t want to miss any potential enemies. People there are going to hate us for generations.
“If we werent in Iraq, many of those terrorists would be here, in America.”
Only by grace of a completely open border and total failure of domestic security. You were making light of those things. As a bush shill I expect no more than that from you!
I’ll be back to finish you off Paul.
BenSome links on honor killing, the sexist, brutal killings of Moslem women by Moslem men, which is the most frequent cause of death in Gaza:http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/womchen.htm
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/008607.php
http://www.sweetness-light.com/archive/moslem-family-butchers-sister-for-disobedience
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/005774.php
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1128979/posts
JROpec says less than 18% of total petroleum reserves have even been discovered yet.I think they know their business!Also, got another “global warming” expert who says man is not causing it:http://www.reporterherald.com/Top-Story.asp?ID=6894
and JR, I you are not winning buddy, but I defend your right to make false charges!
JRThe French did not put very many “boots on the ground” in the Revolutionary war.The French sent Naval ships which blocked the ports and boxed in the British.You need to learn your history.
JRDuring the Korean War, many American POW’s were tortured by Chinese.Most of that was psychological torture, but it was definately torture.Again, in the Vietnam war, Russian and Chinese “advisors” were definately involved in the torture of our POW’s, as observers.Jane Fonda caused more real torture than George W Bush ever thought of, by giving the Communists all the notes from our terrified American servicemen, who were trying to get her to help them!
DougI was once an American serviceman.I greatly admire and respect military service, especially combat service, which I did not experience myself.I hate no one.You are wrong to assume motives that are not in evidence.
JR and DougThe “Homeland Security Act” was held up in Congress for some time, precisely because Democrats wanted collective bargaining for our intelligence types.(making it even harder to fire frauds like Wilson and Plame, when needed, if they had their way)
Let’s continue Paul.
You say:
“The enemy is the enemy.”
Well Paul? bush says “you are either with us or against us.”
I KNOW I am against bush. I know I am against you. I guess I am the “enemy” too? How’s about we look for friends? The nation I mean not you or bush. You have more to gain financially and politically by creating “enemies” and keeping people scared. Joe McCarthy and crowd had NOTHING on you.
“America did not create Nazi Germany.”
No Paul we did not. Nazi Germany made George Bush. His family fortune and their ability to be in American politics is due to the millions they made laundering Nazi money.
“America did not create Moslem extremists.”
Well yes and no. We certainly financed them when they suited our needs. Our own CIA trained bin Laden. Our presence in Saudi Arabia kindled the anger that resulted in the 911 attacks. I guess we have the right to expect that America can do what it likes and the other nations of the world are just supposed to accept it. I don’t think that they do or will. Events tend to bare me out on that.
Now Paul goes personal….
“You are a coward trying to come up with a practical reason to dismiss your own personal failures.”
AM I NOW? I stuck with my union. You sold out yours. YOU Paul regularly whine about my treatment of you. You also criticize and whine about the Eagle editors. No doubt a result of your failed attempt to be a journalist. If there is a failed coward here I say it is you. I would and will say the same to your face.
You Paul say:
“I would sacrifice my life to protect you from an unjust punishment, that is what makes us different, pal”
I am NOT your pal. I do not ask you or anyone else to sacrifice your life for me. AGAIN, why do you not address the unjust punishment of the man who is the subject of the thread? I call bs.
Oh hell line by line I could go on. But what is the use? I feel no need to justify myself to you Paul and certainly you have not justified yourself on this forum in any post.
I note you ended trying to link yourself to Nathan.
Well I disagree with Nathan. But Nathan is no shill. He is just someone deluded by liars like you Paul.
PostalThere is considerable opinion on my side of every point I have posted here.Frankly, I think Forums are very informative.I dont really care if you call me an asshat, I am not here to prove anything, I am here to bring up points most of the liberal choir have never heard.You folks sing to yourselves too much to hear opposing views.
I see our resident shill Paul F Rosell fired off three shills while I was wasting my time attempting to thoughtfully address his last shill.
You are “here” Paul. I’m here too.
Let’s rock.
Paul?
Perhaps unfortunate timing.
I’m off to bed soon myself.
Time and place Paul. Head to head and no delays in posting I will expose you for the empty shill you are.
Paul you are such a phoney. Nobody who served in the military would approve of their fellows being tortured, you certainly wouldn’t want to be tortured. So how is it that you can stab your fellow servicemen in the back and approve of their torture?
You keep on avoiding the question, asshat, tell us why you think Americans should be tortured.
I’ll bet you are a hypocrite too. Why don’t you volunteer to let everyone on this forum to torture you. Each gets 30 minutes to torture your pathetic, cowardly, anti-American ass. You think torture is great and that everyone should experience it so why not toss your hat and lead by example by showing us how much you enjoy being tortured.
JRI have been falsely accused, it sucks.Of course, you have falsely accused me of “selling out my union” you have falsely accused me of being a “chicken hawk” you have falsely accused me of being paid to post here. The list goes on. No, you havent (yet) caused me bodily harm, but you have fantasized my beheading. —- “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor” is a Commandment. It applies to government operators as well as civilians.To be falsely accused is a terrible thing, but as previously posted, this poor guy was suspected by the Canadian and Syrian governments of being a terrorist.You make my case that America treats prisoners better than any Arab Country treats prisoners.Innocent people will be falsely charged. That is a pity but a fact of life. We dont surrender because of mistakes do we?Innocent people will die in war, we dont surrender due to this tragic certainty of life, do we?—-In Answer to a previous question, the US Government still claims they never arrested me. I was detained because I had a public arguement with Randal Terry, telling him not to use kids in his Operation Rescue protests. I also had a conversation with some kids under a car. I asked them to get out.The young girl under the car answered: “If I was going in there to get an abortion, you couldnt stop me, why do you think you have the right to tell me how to protest?”I stammered a bit, was at a loss for words.I went back to the curb.Then Police Chief Rick Stone suckered me by waving me forward. I went up to talk to him.Stone had already been warned to leave me alone — so he had the US Marshals pick me up.Judge Kelly accused me of telling the kids to get into the street in the first place. Still, I was never charged with a crime, this was “contempt of court” but — Judge Kelly neglected to show how I had ever violated his order, neglected to show how the court had any jurisdiction over juveniles, neglected to prove I was covered by his order, and had no one who could refute my witnesses who said I opposed using kids in the street, under cars. Kelly was later overturned by the 10th Circuit.Prior to winning my case, Tiller filed a brief claiming I had never been arrested.No, I just made national news being accused of something I found abhorrent: Using kids to fight my battles.Being falsely accused sucks, but it happens.It didnt make me hate law enforcement, but it does make me a bit less of a death penalty proponent. I support it, mainly for its utility in forcing confessions and making informants talk.Cops do make mistakes.And there are dirty cops, like Chief Stone. (I have had several high ranking cops tell me Stone was dishonest.)I am answering specific questions with this post, sorry for the bio.—-However, How does this guy, who was wrongly tortured by Syria, have any bearing on the comparitively mild techniques used by the United States, techniques which have already saved thousands of lives?
I keep asking myself why the military would allow anyone to possess a camera while they are on the job.Given that membership with the military requires you submit to their rules, I was very surprised to see photos from Abu Ghraib. I cannot fathom that no-one in the leadership ranks of the CIA or the military did not see this coming.Torture has existed for centuries and anyone who suggests that is does not work probably has never the tickled or had someone sit on you and poke your chest with their finger. Those are friendly torture techniques but they accomplish the same goal – getting the victim to give up.I am not opposed to torture. I am against routine torture. When the low ranking members are in on the act then you are compromising the process.Torture has always existed, long before digital cameras, the internet, and CNN.People who desire to kill me and my 2 yr old daughter should be tortured for information. It should happen behind closed doors by secret agents.If we cannot torture secretly then we should not toture at all. Our image should be upheld. It is a very difficult sell but this type of thing is a real part of dealing with threats. There is no poo poo way to care about terror suspects. We must be aggresive and unapologetic.
DougYour comments are way over the top.I do not believe that what we do, waterboarding, loud music, cold rooms, sleep depravation, is true “torture.”I believe the majority of Americans agree with me.However, I know I am right regardless of any support my views here might have.You Democrats support a “Terrorist Bill of Rights.”You Democrats are making the election about terrorism, and not about Iraq.This is why the polls are moving in the Republicans favor.However, Bush does the right thing regardless of poles.This is why I admire Bush.http://www.humanevents.com/evansnovak.php?id=17141#3
Paul writes that some traditional societies perform honor killings.
Uh, Paul, keep in mind that WE DON’T LIVE IN GAZA.
I think it’s terrible IF TRUE.
But as an American, I believe in making AMERICA a better place and not looking down my nose at others.
Just because terrible things are happening in other parts of the world doesn’t mean we should ignore the somewhat less terrible things that OUR GOVERNMENT is doing.
We’re responsible for our government. We’re not responsible for what happens in Gaza.
Some things just aren’t our problem.
News flash: Bush Ignores Poles! People in Poland are miffed by the slight . . .
It’s “polls,” Mr. Journalism major.
Please tell me you went to parochial school, please . . .
How about when the waterboarding results in death?
Would that be torture or just execution?
The terrorist was executed to death . . .
Beyond all of this, The Geneva Conventions are a treaty.Treaties dont apply to everyone, they apply to countries that sign on to them. In that case, they apply mutually, not unilaterally.Also, if you insist on using the Geneva Conventions, then please tell me if the Geneva Conventions would allow an American Female to question a Moslem Male prisoner?Moslem men would find this to be degrading.Do we care what sexist terrorist Moslem men think about women interrogators?Again, please read the Geneva Conventions.http://www.poynter.org/column.asp?id=49&aid=65396
CapnYou make your share of typos, but I am not small enough to point all of them out.Good for you, you found one of several.Like JR, you will make a great secretary some day.
Paul is now melting down.
I have seen this before. Clearly there is some deep mental anguish or psychosis behind Paul and his posts here. I do not wish to add to that pain. But Paul should probably seek the services of a mental healty expert instead of venting here.
He might invite Tom along….
CapnI have made the point, several times, that Israel has killed fewer people in Gaza than the number that die every year due to “honor killing.”
Honor killing is also relevent to this post, because if you would READ the Geneva Conventions, you will see that we are to avoid anything that might be seen as degrading to our captives.I contend that societies that allow or even promote “honor killing” of women have about as much right to refuse questioning by a female CIA agent as a German has to refuse a forced march through a Nazi Death Camp, as we forced many Germans to do towards the end of WW2.Tough if putting women in charge offends them!However, you read Common Article 3 of the Conventions and tell me that a Terrorist wont claim the right to be interviewed only by men!http://www.poynter.org/column.asp?id=49&aid=65396
“To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:
(a) violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture; (b) taking of hostages; (c) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment; (d) the passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.”
Will we let the radical Moslem world define a treaty that they never signed?Will we let them tell us that Women can not run our prisons?Will we let them tell us that Women can not ask them questions?
In a culture that condones “honor killing” I think we can ignore their sensibilities, dont you?
And without seeing a response I must go and look later.
We have seen here the thought processes of the right. They are based in hypocrisy and irrational fear.
Not the stuff of a healthy nation I think.
Certainly not the stuff of inflicting pain and torture on others to satisfy a flawed personal….or national agenda.
I can’t answer that, Paul, because I don’t know what the hell you’re talking about.
We should live up to our standards–not the standards of the terrorists.
Hugo Chavez called Bush “el diablo” today in the UN.
Viva Chavez!
JRWhat, exactly, is a “mental healty expert”Well, sorry, just had to get in on the typo patrol!
JRYou view fear of terrorists as “irrational fear.”This view of yours is precisely why the American people do not trust National Security to Democrats.You guys felt the same way about the Soviet Union and Communism.— Just look at Capn saying “viva chavez” in this link.Chavez is just another Communist Thug dictator. Thats what it takes to be a hero of the left.
CapnYour hero, commie thug Chavez, is quite a guy, huh??
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/04/12/venezu8423.htm
Hugo Chavez tortures his political opponents, yet you think he is a hero?
As usual Paul avoids the issues brought before him. It’s pretty hard finding some moral justification for torture isn’t it Paul. I hope I never have to serve with the likes of Paul who’d be so willing to turn his back on his fellow soldiers as they scream in agony while being tortured with Paul’s approval.
Paul thinks the torture Americans have inflicted upon the Iraqis is mild. I guess that’s why so many Iraqis have died at the hands of Paul’s fellow advocates of torture.
Here’s some of the torture that Paul has no problem with that was reported by Amnesty International:
“Detainees report kicking, slapping and punching; prolonged suspension from the wrists with the hands tied behind the back; electric shocks to sensitive parts of the body, including the earlobes and genitals; and being kept blindfolded and/or handcuffed continuously for several days. In several cases, the detainees suffered what may be permanent physical disability.”
That doesn’t include the claims of rape and a soldier’s claim that she had poisonous snakes bite the detainees.
Of course these acts of torture were inflicted upon innocent civilians. According to Paul all Iraqis are terrorists and there isn’t one innocent civilian. At least 26 people have been murdered as a result of the Paul approved torture.
CapnSometimes, when police arrest someone, that person has a heart attack and dies.Do we stop arresting people?Sometimes, a deaf or hard of hearing person does not hear a cop say “freeze” and reaches inside his pocket. This gets him shot. Do we quit shooting suspects due to these tragedies?
HARD CASES MAKE BAD LAW! We cant change our practices in order to avoid all possible bad outcomes. We must do the best we can under the circumstances, which is what Bush is trying to do.You are “making the perfect the enemy of the good.”You want a perfect world, you are holding out for a perfect process.Perfection is not obtainable, so you are sentencing us all to the mercy of the enemy.This enemy sees all of your actions as weak, this enemy is encouraged by your soft response to their outrages.
DougThe President had not asked for any approval for the illegal acts you cite.The Commander in Chief, George Bush, is prosecuting men and women for violations of the law, some of which you cited.You are confusing the issue.Bad acts will happen. There are bad individuals in every Army and in every large police force.However, America polices itself very well. We are actually punishing our troops who misbehave.Quit confusing policy issues over interrogation techniques with the petty or even cruel behavior of isolated bad actors.Bush is not asking for permission to electrocute genitals, whip, burn or break bones or rape.Your sensationalism is avoiding the issue:Is it ok to keep someone awake who might know where a nuclear bomb is hidden?Is it ok to keep them in a cold room if they might tell us about a hijacking or a nerve gas bomb planted in a subway?Of course it is.You cant win this one.
My efforts aside, Paul F Rosell seems determned to melt down for us.
I’m here Paul.
Paul:
Whether or not I called you an asshat, and whether or not that forum contains a lot of OPINION on your side, as you say, it holds no sway with me that you can find a group of people that think like you to prove you’re not just a random happenstance of belief. If you want to pad an argument, find a static document (static meaning NOT A FORUM, preferably a reference) with a credible third party. If we don’t buy it from you, why would we buy it from a bunch of other people like you?
“CapnSometimes, when police arrest someone, that person has a heart attack and dies.Do we stop arresting people?”
Apples and oranges AGAIN Paulie.I ate an apple once and got real sick. I don’t know for sure, but I think it was a bad apple.Therefore, I shall never eat ORANGES again.
How’s that therapy going Paulie?
“I have made the point, several times, that Israel has killed fewer people in Gaza than the number that die every year due to “honor killing.”"
Paul – you have made that CLAIM. You haven’t backed it up.
Paul – “Although the Werewolves managed to make themselves a nuisance to small Allied and Soviet units, they failed to stop or delay the invasion and occupation of Germany, and did not succeed in rousing the population into widespread opposition to the new order. The SS and Hitler Youth organisations at the core of the Werewolf movement were poorly led, short of supplies and weapons, and crippled by infighting. Their mandate was a conservative one of tactical harassment, at least until the final days of the war, and even when they did begin to envision the possibility of an underground resistance that could survive the Third Reich’s collapse, they had to contend with widespread civilian war-weariness and fear of enemy reprisals. In Western Germany, no one wanted to do anything that would diminish the pace of Anglo-American advance and possibly thereby allow the Red Army to push further westward.”
Note that they were hardly the force you claimed they were.
Keep at it Paul,
If you notice, the only response seems to be to personally attack you instead of addressing what you bring up.
More on Paul’s werewolves myth:
“Before the end of the war, there had been rumors of possible guerilla war by diehard elements of the Nazi regime after the formal end of hostilities. Yet of all the many problems facing the occupying powers, a guerilla war was not one of them. The “Werewolves” had a scary name but no presence and did not become a serious security issue for the occupation. Instead of any heroic last stands, many Nazi leaders became the butt of bitter jokes as their promises of enduring heroism culminated instead in hundreds of suicides. The length and severity of the Second World War itself combined with the severity of Allied occupation made postwar guerilla resistance a fantasy.”
http://hnn.us/articles/1655.html
and …
“Indeed, the organization merits but two passing mentions in Occupation of Germany, which dwells far more on how docile the Germans were once the Americans rolled in—and fraternization between former enemies was a bigger problem for the military than confrontation. Although Gen. Eisenhower had been worrying about guerrilla warfare as early as August 1944, little materialized. There was no major campaign of sabotage. There was no destruction of water mains or energy plants worth noting. In fact, the far greater problem for the occupying forces was the misbehavior of desperate displaced persons, who accounted for much of the crime in the American zone.
The Army history records that while there were the occasional anti-occupation leaflets and graffiti, the GIs had reason to feel safe. When an officer in Hesse was asked to investigate rumors that troops were being attacked and castrated, he reported back that there had not been a single attack against an American soldier in four months of occupation. As the distinguished German historian Golo Mann summed it up in The History of Germany Since 1789, “The [Germans'] readiness to work with the victors, to carry out their orders, to accept their advice and their help was genuine; of the resistance which the Allies had expected in the way of ‘werewolf’ units and nocturnal guerrilla activities, there was no sign. …”
http://www.slate.com/id/2087768/
I had family members in Germany after the war. I wondered why they had never told me about the werewolves. The reason: there was nothing to tell!
http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/marcuse/classes/133c/133cTexts/USOccGerm+IraqHNet03v.htm
George Will: You’ve stressed that in Iraq we’ve made much faster progress than we made in post-war Germany in establishing police, army, currency, central bank. That’s all true. One difference is that in 1945, in May, when Hitler died, fascism died. It was no longer a fighting faith. If Saddam dies, there will still be the fighting faith of militant Islam. So might it make zero difference at all?Donald Rumsfeld: Oh, I wouldn’t say a zero difference. First of all, the Nazi faith did linger. And there were people in Germany who kept trying to kill the allies, as we were called then, as opposed to the coalition.Will: Did they have casualties — inflict casualties comparable to this?Rumsfeld: Not comparable, but there were casualties, to be sure. There were mayors who were cooperating with the allies that were killed. There were Nazis who escaped and went to South America and other countries. It took years to track them down. Hitler, fortunately, killed himself.[end of quotation -- source: http://slate.msn.com/id/2087768/, in which Benjamin points out, among other things, that there were no post-surrender American combat casualties in Germany or Japan). There was indeed a famous murder of a cooperating mayor (in Aachen), but it occurred many weeks before the German surrender. And if anyone can think of a serious problem posed by Nazis in South America other than the trouble it took to locate, capture, and extradite them, I’d like to hear about it.
Nathan?
Stay away from Paul Rosell.
Now you Nathan are misguided and wrong about almost everything. But you are not a shill.
Paul will say anything. He has used a chat room as a source of “proof”. He has been caught and busted for more lies and distortions than anyone in the history of the forum. If you embrace him, you diminish your own credibility.
“20 honor killings in Gaza and the West Bank in 1996″
Over 215 killings in Gaza alone by Israel in just the past two months. So, 20 in a year is more than 215 in two months. Must be that “new math” I never learned.
As for the one specific instance in West bank you might note that the population abhored it and attacked Hamas for the actions of one of its members.
oops – make that last comment Gaza, not West Bank. Note also that it occurred under Israeli controlled territory – the Palestinian Authority had no means to do anything about it.
Paul you need to educated yourself on the issues. The Supreme Court already said Bush violated the law with the detainment of prisoners in Cuba. Therefore this latest deal by Bush to change the Geneva Convention rules is to get around that Supreme Court decision. It’s to save his own ass. It’s completely contrary to your claim that he is prosecuting himself. Thanks again for making yourself look like a moron and for completely avoiding the issues brought before you, you morally bankrupt, anti-American, sadistic coward.
Oh good, Paul is telling us the entire effort by the Bush regime to change the Geneva Convention’s rules on torture doesn’t really exist. Gee, I wonder why the media is reporting otherwise. Once again Paul is proven to be a liar.
Any congressman or senator who is considering voting to torture prisoners of war should try out being tortured first so he’d know what he was voting for! A little product testing is indicated here.