Pope Benedict XVI has said he is “deeply sorry” for remarks last week that quoted a medieval text calling some of the Prophet Muhammed’s teachings “evil and inhuman.”
Some Muslims still aren’t satisfied, but the pope has apologized enough.
In its spasm of protests and outrage, the Muslim world is missing the pope’s larger point — about the evil of any religion using violence in the name of God — as well as his invitation to engage in honest dialogue.
True, it might have helped if the pope had chosen his words more carefully, as well as acknowledged Christianity’s own checkered past on this point, but Muslims of good faith should accept that the pope’s intent was to respectfully engage them, not condemn them.
Of course, the loud militant minority in the Muslim world doesn’t believe in self-reflection and rational discourse. Its overreaction was predictable: Mobs burned the pope in effigy in several countries, and fanatical groups, including al-Qaida in Iraq, vowed to “smash the cross” and “conquer Rome.”
Again — making the pope’s point. Is the Muslim world willing to confront these fanatical elements in its midst?
Posted by Randy Scholfield
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110 Comments
I think most of these Muslium protesters have no idea what the Pope said or even cared. All they saw was a group of men burning effigies and bibles and decided to join in. The old mob mentality.
To them it’s a lot of fun to join in on a good street protest and burning. It beats staying at home watching daytime television.
Yep, we are a peace loving religion who will destroy anyone who disagrees with us.
Does that about sum it up? Nice folk out there, radicals. You state your case quite effectively.
This whole thing is bullshit.It’s enough to make even the most liberal folks angry at these idiots.
The Muslims not killing, burning and rioting are not real muslims. Just read the Koran and see how violent that religion is. Its mentality is convert or die.
How can you negotiate with people who adhere to such a screwed mentality?
There is no such thing as a peace-loving Muslim. Well, at least they haven’t produced one in a TV hour long special yet. The one’s that claim to be peace-loving, merely turn their head to the side when something bad happens and secretly support terrorist activity by their wallet or apathetic attitudes.
Um Randy?
Point of clarification:
The Pope did NOT apologize.
The Pope said he was sorry his words offended.
That’s no apology. That’s re directing focus.
The moderate elements in ALL of the Abrahaimic religions need to reign in theri extreme elements. In the case of Islam the extreme element is all the more dangerous because it holds political power in places like Saudi Arabia.
The pope shouldn’t have apologized at all.
I agree the Muslims react with violence to an offending statement about their religion being violent is wrong.
But we have Pat Robertson, one of Neo-Con leaders in our country, stating that the US needs to assassinate certain foreign leaders. What does that say about us as a society? Do we also tolerate extremists?
I’m sure to the Muslim world it looks like we have a double standard.
We need to get out of Iraq. We need to get off the oil and develop alternative fuels.
I’ve noticed that although Muslims don’t like us – they do like our money.
So let’s stop using their oil, take every bit of foreign aid money out of Muslim countries until the moderates in those countries reign in their extremists.
Oh yeah, this plan won’t work because our oil companies are addicted to their record-breaking profits.
Well said suza.
Don’t forget our right wing media.
I am sure that when high priestess of the Republican party Ann Coulter speaks of the need to “invade their countries and kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity” she does not win us any Muslim trust.
The more I hear of beheadings , random acts of murder, religious intolerances, from all over the world, the more I lean to thinking that Islam is less a religion, and more a mental illness. The cruelty is unbelieveable, and coming from a religion that we are constantly being told stands for peace!
JR is correct. The Pope did not apologize for what he said. He apologized for offending people.
There’s a big difference. And if there weren’t a difference, he could just apologize for WHAT HE SAID.
Imagine the response if the Pope had said that Southern Baptists were evil and violent.
They’d be burning him in effigy in Alabama . . .
By the way, for all you “experts” who pass judgement on Islam without knowing the first thing about it, there’s a mystical branch of Islam called “sufi” that has never been violent.
They are equivalent to the pacifistic Christian churches like the anabaptists (Amish, Mennonite, C. of the Brethern) and Quakers.
One major aspect of the Pope’s comments was the evil practice of “forced conversion.” Perhaps he should take a look at some more history, notably the forced conversion to Christianity in the Americas, Africa and Asia carried out by his missionaries throughout the colonial era.
Why should the Pope apologize for the radical Muslim world’s ignorant misunderstanding? Why should anyone apologize for speaking the truth? It’s about time someone stepped up.
I think the fact that someone has to cite an obscure mystical Muslim sect in order find one non-violent says a lot.
wow, so Christians forced people to convert hundreds of years ago. I wonder if there will be rioting in the street now that you have pointed that out.
The Pope quoted a medievel text that called out Muslims for their irrational violence AND? The Pope should drop condoms, homosexuals, and masturbation from his speaking circuit and stick just to Muslims killing in the name of Allah.Folks, Muslims are no longer a fringe element when the only names the rest of the world knows are the names of the Muslims who advocate terror and murder in the name of God.Who can name the Pope’s equivelent in the Islamic religion?The muslims who show up twice a year on local news to say Islam is a peaceful religion are weak and do not lead their religion. If it is a peaceful religion then why are there so many fundamentalists…….and why do they have so much power?I am going out on a limb here…but I think the radical muslim world is going to invite some REAL trouble if they don’t gather their hummus and retreat. This trouble is a four-letter word commonly referenced when preparing food in a microwave. As we are taught in US Military training – kill or be killed.
Great. Tom has a hard-on for using nuclear weapons against Muslims. I wish he’d keep it to himself. It’s ugly, poking out like that, and rather embarrassing to the rest of us who aren’t in on the whole Islamic hatefest.
Capnamerica,Mystical branches sound like wishful thinkinking. A branch does not make a tree. Cutting off the branch does not kill the tree. Cutting and gutting the tree – kills the tree.I hope we all don’t get all sissy-like and pray for Jesus to get the world out of this bind. Jesus does not answer prayers, God does not answer prayers, annialating the enemy would answer a lot of peoples prayers. I think I am getting an itchy finger about all this.
I know a number of Muslims in my workplace and elsewhere. They are mostly members of the Mosque just off K-96. They are opposed to violence and forced conversion. They are also opposed to Jihad as a form of “holy war” or Crusade.
The fatc that some overseas ARE violent is no justification for the sort of sectarian violence advocated by Tom. Tom is no better than OBL.
Ben Huie,
Indeed. Tom’s ‘itchy finger’ gives him away.
Well Tom you are quite the pshychopath aren’t you?
With the Arabs being slaughtered in Palestine, Iraq and in Lebanon, their religion being bad-mouth and cartooned and dragged through the mud by every US newspaper, and being blamed for everything that the Jews blow-up, so, they’re just a bit touchy right now.
So why did that dumb son of a bitch of a pope throw gasoline on the fire and even mention Islam.
Is his so God Damned stupid that he doesn’t know that they’re as piss-off as anybody can possibly be, and just keep his fucking mouth shut.
Talk about anything right now, but for God’s sake have enough sense not to bring-up Islam.
But now that he’s gone and done it just say I’m sorry for being such a dunb-ass and be done with it.
Ed Friedemann,
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
I remember in the days after Oklahoma City the Tom types wanting to nuke Muslims for it. Turns out it was a Tom type who DID Oklahoma City. Of course, I STILL occassionally see claims that Ann Coulter’s favorite terrorist McVeigh was really working with saddam.
Ben Huie,
Indeed. For the Wingnuts, Timothy McVeigh, Saddam Hussein, and every bad man are hiding together under the bed waiting to come out when Mom and Dad go to sleep.
Grow up, Wingnuts. Your projections and delusions haven’t proven terribly useful in dealing with real people in the real world.
Does the blog know how many Muslims that the Jews murdered today?
Ed – unfortunately fewer than were murdered by each other – Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.
NO–HOW MANY?
Do booby-traps count?
“Meanwhile, the U.N. urged Israel to hand over coordinates of cluster bombs fired by Israeli forces in Lebanon, saying its failure to do so was hampering efforts to remove them.
At least 350,000 unexploded bomblets litter fields, homes, schools, hospitals and playgrounds in southern Lebanon and could take up to two and a half years to clear, the U.N. said in a report.
Israel could greatly accelerate the clearance effort handing over strike coordinates but has not done so, said David Shearer, U.N. humanitarian coordinator in Lebanon. “We have asked for them but they haven’t yet been forthcoming. I haven’t heard any explanation,” he said.
Israeli government spokeswoman Miri Eisin said she was unaware of any official U.N. complaint over cluster bomb mapping.
The fist-sized bomblets have killed or wounded on average three people a day since the truce last month, according to the U.N demining center. At least 15 people including a child have been killed and 83 others wounded, 23 of them children, it said.”
Ben
The Mossad is all over Iraq setting off bombs. The Jews want this war to keep going just the way they kept killing Palestinians over 58 years. That keeps the American People thinking that we can not leave.
The “president of Iraq” went to see the Iranian president about the Jews blowing-up everything, but I don’t know the results of that meeting.
The Mossad embeds themselves by saying they’re from another Village or town, taking ID papers from someone they’ve killed.
Tracy
It’s hard to get an Arab body count as the US and Israel keep that secret.
Notice how the Generals will not say it’s a “civil war” because they know what the Jews are doing the bombing everywhere they can, and if a General says anything about it, their “career” is over.
Bush lied in the Rose Garden telling reporters: ” Israel defeated Hezbollah”
Lebanon’s shadow over Ehud Olmert
Khaleej Times 19 September 2006
ISRAEL is yet to get over the hangover of Lebanon fiasco. More than a month after the Israelis were forced to swallow the humiliation of a truce with Hezbollah, the government of Ehud Olmert has ordered a probe into the disaster that the war was. Israeli cabinet voted 20-2 in favour of setting up a commission to determine whether mistakes were made during the 34-day conflict with Lebanon.
http://article.wn.com/view/2006/09/19/Lebanons_shadow_over_Ehud_Olmert/
“I think I am getting an itchy finger about all this.”
Tom, you have military training? Why not rejoin? Or better yet, I hear they’re looking for mercenaries and paying well. Sounds right up your alley.
Protests? Burning people in effigy? Wow! Sounds like Pitt State (KSC of Pittsburg) back in the fall of 1969 when the blacks were demanding a student union of their own.
I gotta blame the Pope for this one. Right or wrong, he shouldn’t be inciting these people. He has to be aware of what the reaction will be. Were they po’d? You bet! Catholics and other Christians would’ve been, too, if the same remarks had been made about them.
I’m not pro-radical Islam, but when we have world leaders inciting, we can only expect this kind of response and worse.
Why the US opposes Middle Eastern peace:
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060814/new_christian_zionism
Birth Pangs of a New Christian ZionismMAX BLUMENTHAL
Washington, DCOver the past months, the White House has convened a series of off-the-record meetings about its policies in the Middle East with leaders of Christians United for Israel (CUFI), a newly formed political organization that tells its members that supporting Israel’s expansionist policies is “a biblical imperative.” CUFI’s Washington lobbyist, David Brog, told me that during the meetings, CUFI representatives pressed White House officials to adopt a more confrontational posture toward Iran, refuse aid to the Palestinians and give Israel a free hand as it ramped up its military conflict with Hezbollah.The White House instructed Brog not to reveal the names of officials he met with, Brog said.
CUFI’s advice to the Bush Administration reflects the Armageddon-based foreign-policy views of its founder, John Hagee. Hagee is a fire-and-brimstone preacher from San Antonio who commands the nearly 18,000-member Cornerstone Church and hosts a major TV ministry where he explains to millions of viewers how the end times will unfold. He is also the author of numerous bestselling pulp-prophecy books, like his recent Jerusalem Countdown, in which he cites various unnamed Israeli intelligence sources to claim that Iran is producing nuclear “suitcase bombs.” The only way to defeat the Iranian evildoers, he says, is a full-scale military assault.”The coming nuclear showdown with Iran is a certainty,” Hagee wrote this year in the Pentecostal magazine Charisma. “Israel and America must confront Iran’s nuclear ability and willingness to destroy Israel with nuclear weapons. For Israel to wait is to risk committing national suicide.”Despite his penchant for extreme rhetoric, or perhaps because of it, Hagee endeared himself to key members of the Israeli right. With the help of former Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who once spoke at a massive pro-Israel fundraiser at Cornerstone Church, Hagee has raised at least $8.5 million for Israeli social work projects. And as a result of Hagee’s influence in the Lone Star State, reflected by his enormous wealth–he reportedly rakes in more than $1 million a year from his television ministry–and his close relationship with the previously omnipotent and now disgraced former House majority leader Tom DeLay, Washington’s Republican leadership is just a phone call away.Hagee recently united America’s largest Christian Zionist congregations and some of the movement’s most prominent figures–including the Rev. Jerry Falwell, Gary Bauer and Rod Parsley, an Ohio preacher instrumental in launching Republican Ken Blackwell’s gubernatorial campaign–under the banner of CUFI, creating the first and only nationwide evangelical political organization dedicated to supporting Israel. Hagee says he would like to see CUFI become “the Christian version of AIPAC,” referring to the vaunted pro-Israel group rated second only to the National Rifle Association as the most effective lobby in Washington.But while Hagee is the public face of CUFI, he remains tethered to his ministry in the Texas plains, far from the wheeling and dealing of inside-the-Beltway culture. To advance his agenda on the Hill, Hagee has tapped David Brog, a seasoned and articulate lawyer who has been Republican Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Arlen Specter’s chief of staff, and who boasts myriad connections in Republican Washington. Besides Brog’s political acumen, there was another characteristic Hagee found appealing: He is Jewish.”I think while there are some differences between us as far as our religious views,” Brog told me about Hagee, “what matters more, and what is of much deeper significance, is everything that we share. We share a love for Israel and a love for America. And we share an understanding of the war on radical Islamic terror, and that makes us brothers.”As Hagee’s political point man, Brog has instantly emerged as an important operative on the Christian right and an effective advocate shielding the movement from institutional Jewish criticism whenever an evangelical leader makes a gaffe. After a series of wildly impolitic remarks by Pat Robertson, including the suggestion that Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon’s descent into a comatose state was God’s punishment for the Gaza withdrawal, Brog used an interview with the conservative National Review to defend Robertson as “a good man.” When Anti-Defamation League president Abraham Foxman lambasted the Christian right as a dire threat to America’s Jewish community, Brog scolded Foxman in a lengthy Wall Street Journal op-ed. “There are very serious threats facing American Jews today, and they have nothing to do with social conservatives,” he wrote.
Brog explains that CUFI has become a valuable ally of AIPAC, which helps them coordinate lobbying efforts. “They have a great research staff,” he said. Brog has also earned the confidence of the Jewish Federation by making sure to elicit the cooperation of its local chapters before initiating a recruitment drive in the federation’s area. “I have absolutely no reservation about working with John Hagee,” Houston-area Jewish Federation CEO Lee Wunsch told the Jerusalem Post.AIPAC spokesman Josh Block declined to answer questions about the extent of CUFI’s influence. But he offered a positive, if somewhat canned assessment of their lobbying efforts. “That organization is evidence of the broad American support for the US-Israel relationship that exists in every segment of American society,” Block told me. “AIPAC welcomes all organizations working to strengthen the bond between the United States and Israel.”But CUFI is not just any pro-Israel organization.Despite his best efforts, Brog remains dogged by questions about evangelical reasons for backing Israel. Hagee has told his supporters that supporting Israel is a “biblical imperative,” and proudly pronounces his belief that Israel is the future site of the Rapture. Hagee has even reveled in events that most Israelis would describe as tragic. For instance, in his 1996 book The Beginning of the End, Hagee described the murder of Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin as fulfillment of prophecy and suggested admiration for Rabin’s assassin, Yigal Amir.Imagining Amir’s mindset as he prepared himself to kill Rabin, Hagee wrote, “Tonight, if God was good, an opportunity would show itself. No longer would Rabin be able to transfer Israeli lands to Palestinians. The damage he’d done in the West Bank and Gaza was enough. Israel had a divine right to the land, and to give it away was an act of treason against Israel and an abomination against God.”More recently, some of Hagee’s allies, such as nationally syndicated evangelical radio host Janet Parshall, became ecstatic when Israel and Hezbollah commenced hostilities last month. “These are the times we’ve been waiting for,” Parshall told her listeners in a voice brimming with joy on July 21. “This is straight out of a Sunday school lesson.”But the renewal of the peace process and rolling back the West Bank settlements would be an unjust cause. For Hagee and for CUFI, all roads lead to a “nuclear showdown: with Iran. Diplomacy would only make God angry. As Hagee warns in Jerusalem Countdown, “Those who follow a policy of opposition to God’s purposes will receive the swift and severe judgment of God without limitation.”
CUFI and Hagee wee Jews as a people to be given in blood sacrifice to hasten the End Times.
“Catholics and other Christians would’ve been, too, if the same remarks had been made about them.”
People run down Catholics and Christians every day, I haven’t seen too many riots or calls for assassination as a result. A ridiculous comparison.
Insane fundmentalists are upset? Okay, who drew a cartoon?
Outlander–
The Sufis are “an obscure sect” only to you.
*****
Tom’s idea is to just exterminate everybody we don’t like.
What about if we don’t like you?
The Pope’s comments came at a particularly bad time. Many Muslims feel that the world’s most powerful nations are waging Jihad against them. After all, Bush DID use the English equivalent of Jihad. Now the Pope digs into imperial history for the words that were used to justify Jihad (Crusade) against Islam in the Middle Ages.
Freud called that the Oedipus complex.
Anyone who does not realize Iran will deploy nuclear weapons through Hamas, or Hizzbolah, and sanction their use are living in a world of make believe. What is your plan to stop this from happening?
JW- Maybe send Fred Phelps to Iran on a crusade with Jerry Falwell?That would be very popular!
jw – perhaps a comprehensive policy aimed at removing the nuclear threat from the region. Bush FAVORS having nukes there.
IT’S THE TOM’S!!WE HATE THE TOMS!!GET EM’ BOYS!
The pope was speaking of an ancient text and asking what, within the context of main stream Islam, does jihad mean. How can you hope to dialog with people who only want to talk to people who agree with them. That’s NOT dialog. An intellectual discussion does not refelect academic freedom, if we are only free to agree with each other. The radicals are reacting to their perception of what the pope said, not what he actually said. Unfortunately many of them are too uneducated to understand what was really said and to know the history surrounding it. Equally unfortunate is that so many Americans are too. Christians are hated for the crusades…ok. But, weren’t they conducted in response to Muslim incursions into Spain, Turkey and North Africa where they forced conversions? Why doesn’t anyone ever mention that? When Christian religions are insulted people get angry, ok. But in modern times do they behead, burn in effigy, or murder innocents to vent?The pope doesn’t need to apologize for what he said, because he didn’t say anything wrong. He can’t change history.. And not liking history won’t change it either. He is sorry that his words were misconstrued by the pundits and the undereducated, and for the mayhem that has ensued. That’s all that is necessary!
Excellent post Lyn. Thanks for the common sense.
Please explain your comrehensive policy Ben Huie.
Surely you jest gstr, I don’t have faith in Fred or Jerry. Please gstr, come up with a valid solution to Iran building nuclear weapons.
The world awaits your decree!
jw – I have posted numerous times various suggestions. For example, work with the Lebanese democracy to remove the US-supplied cluster bombs from their soil. Return to the role of honest broker in the Israel/Palestine situation rather than blindly following AIPAC and CUFI. Find a way to internationalize the Iraq fiasco that Bush has FUBARd. Press for denuclearizing the region; having one nuclear-armed country encourages more. Perhaps provide an umbrella and/or nonaggression agreement in return for disarming.
Just a few of tem jw. So, what is yours other than unilateral diarmament followed by invasion?
Muslims should be euthanized, or maybe we can have a bounty on them.
Eat Lamb. 50,000 coyotes can’t be wrong
I like that idea Ben Huie give em an umbrella. Good idea! I’m sure Iran will see it your way too. To hell with John Bolton, everybody that wants to send Ben Huie to negotiate with Iran raise your hand.
I prefer the ultimatum and nuke until well done method to bring the Iranians to their knees. Of course this will not happen until we lose a city or two. But who cares as long as we can bash bush in the meantime.
jw – why does Iran not have the right to defend itself? With nutcases like you running around it is easy to see why they feel the need to have such self-defense capability.
I’ve already stated my opinion on nukes in the Mid-East. I’m starting to get a little tired of Muslims freaking out about everything. This didn’t start out as a war of cultures, but it’s rapidly turning into one. If it’s gotta be “us or them”, I’m all for roasting “them”.
Other than the Iraqis I and the Afghans I haven’t seen too many advocating attacking the US. Unless, of course, you count Osama bin Forgotten and the House of Saud.
Lyn, here’s what Christians have to say about you women:
Tertullian: “You are the devil’s gateway…you are the first deserter of the divine law; you are she who persuaded him whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack. You destroyed so easily God’s image, man. On account of your desert- that is, death- even the Son of God had to die.”
St. Clement of Alexandria (c150-c215), the Greek Father of the Church, had such a contempt for women that he believed such a feeling must be universal. He wrote, in his book Paedagogus that in women, “the consciousness of their own nature must evoke feelings of shame.” That women is clearly inferior to men, Clement has no doubt. As a form of exercise for this “weaker sex”, he suggested that, “Women should also fetch from the pantry things that we need
St. Gregory of Nazianzum (329-389), the Bishop of Constantinople had this to say about women, “Fierce is the dragon and cunning the asp; But woman have the malice of both.”
St. Albert Magnus: Woman knows nothing about fidelity. Believe me, if you give her your trust, you will be disappointed. Trust an experience teacher. For this reason prudent men share their plans and actions least of all with their wives. Woman is a misbegotten man and has a faulty and defective nature in comparison to his. Therefore she is unsure in herself. What she cannot get, she seeks to obtain through lying and diabolical deceptions. And so, to put it briefly, one must be on one’s guard with every woman, as if she were a poisonous snake and the horned devil.
Paul: But if they have not continency, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn
Lyn, I hope you appreciate these historical references to your fair sex and do in no way find them offensive.
This topic makes a whole lot of people sound like our resident racist Ian.
Yes, they’re bent out of shape. We and Israel keep occupying their land, stealing their resources, and then when we insult their religion, they riot.
What part of this do you not expect?
America IS THE AGGRESSOR. It’s like if David hit Goliath, and then Goliath didn’t flinch, he just stomped David and went about oppressing David’s family for as long as he felt like it.
At a certain point, revenge becomes megalomania.
We’re stealing their resources?Quoting Syriana”100 years ago your people were living in tents in the desert and cutting each others heads off with swords, and in another 100 you’ll be doing the same thing.” The only reason I use a quote from a movie is because I believe in the statement so much.
Our addiction to the only thing in that part of that world worth a damn has made them wealthier than its wildest dreams. It’s not the US and civilized world’s fault the governments the people “choose” or “want” (either dictators or monarchy’s) are stealing it all for a chosen few.
Then the US needs to get off the oil and stop giving foreign aid to the Muslim countries that continue to hold onto their dictators and harbor these terrorists.
I notice these countries don’t like us but they sure like our money.
But then our oil companies here in the US would have to give up their addiction to record-breaking profits. Will they do it for the sake of our country?
Tom here,We have the UN super session happening this week. Where are the Arab leaders to speak up and defend Islam. Where is a united front of Arab leaders to present themselves as “…mad as hell and …not going to take it anymore.” Meaning, they turn their attention to the fundamentalists who blow shit up in the name of Allah. Given that Muslims in our country have assimilated and most were born here, they probably do not comprehend the evil their fellow religious followers perpetrate in teh name of God.The Pope has every right to speak out against evil. If Muslim fundamentalists are using violence then the Pope is right for addressing them. And isn’t it interesting that a 14th century leader had this same problem with the Muslim fundamentalists.Basically, the Muslims need to clean up their fundamentalists. Getting pissed at the Pope only shows the rest of us what murderous fucks they are.Yes, I believe killing hundreds of thousands of nutso whacko murderous fundamentalist is okay. The world is a shit pit because of them.Why are you sympathisers so offended by defending our freedom with fire power. Clearly, if the Pope cannot be respected by them then no one else will.The French are god-damn pussies. Jackoff Charaqueepoo defended Iran today. What the fuck?War is inevitable and the sooner we flatten a few cities the sooner we’ll get to a new start for the world. WWII – we stopped the Japanese because our freedom was threatened. We stopped them. It took a tremendously questionable bombing…but it worked.Let me ask this? When an islamic fundamentalist sets off a nuke-dirty bomb and kills 50,000 people in an American city will you still be soft on nuke power. I say, let’s not wait for the dirty bomb, let’s drop the motherfucker on them.But, where are they? No one can pin down where they are?Did you hear yesterday that OBL announced that he has received permission by the ‘lords’ that he can kill 10 million people.He is planning to do it. We know it. We expect it. So, why wait. Nuke the piss out of them. But where are they? When we do find them, nuke them.And knock the shit out of the French on a practice run. America matters more than Islamic fundamentalism.
Tom
I am calling you out.
I say you are a dangerous kook.
Can you prove me wrong?
Tom,With the exception of the French part, I tend to agree. If it’s going to come down to “them or Us”, I’m for Us. Osama’s comment about killing 10 million people really bothered me. That’s a smallish nuclear device in a big city.
A question. Assume that a nuke will be used in the near future. Would you rather it be detonated in Los Angeles, or the Middle-East?
My Question is open to anybody.
The question is irrelevant. The terrorists do not have nukes.
I am going to differ diametrically from my friend X here.
I say the greater enemy is right here in the US. It is a party and a movement that sells fear to shadily enact their larger agenda.
XXX–
It’s the “either/or” fallacy your engaging in.
Either we kill them or they kill us.
Wait a minute. There’s another much likelier possibility. They mouth-off about blowing up a city, and we don’t let them.
There’s no evidence that Al Qaeda’s in the US. There’s no evidence they have a WMD like a nuclear bomb. There’s no evidence they even have the will or capability to carry out a terrorist act in our country.
Going around blowing things up because of imaginary threats is the strategy of a lunatic (see George W Bush in Iraq, for instance).
“Did you hear yesterday that OBL announced that he has received permission by the ‘lords’ that he can kill 10 million people.”
Uh, no, Tom, I didn’t hear that.
Do you have a link that isn’t to RushLimbaugh.com or NationalReviewOnLine?
There are those who suggest that our own government under bush was complicit in the attack on 911.
I call these ideas worthy of investigation.
At the very least the bush administration was criminally negligent in the days leading up to that attack.
Just how would a nuke be delivered and detonated in the US?
Well, most likely it would arrive in an uninspected container on a ship of uninspected containers.
So I would have to blame bush.
Would it be bush that touched off the bomb?
No, but he would have given those who did the means motive and opportunity.
I think two large buildings that no longer exist, a hole in the pentagon and one in a field in Pennsylvania is more than an imaginary threat. Couple that with overseas attacks against Americans and our interests and its a definite threat.The problem I see with the “terrorism isn’t a threat/doesn’t exist/is overblown/doesn’t have anything to do with Iraq” argument is that our country has been attacked numberous times by radical islam of varying nationalities in the last 27 years.You all seem to think terrorism is imaginary and blown out of proportion.The reality is we can’t afford to believe that way.They don’t have a nuke.Do you want to give another 27 years to get one? The leaders have obviously expressed interests in getting one. And who knows what the Russians, Chinese, N. Koreans are willing to sell on a bad day.And BTW I pick the Middle East over LA (not that I think that’s the answer), however I live 100 miles from LA so obviously I’m voting mideast.
Let’s face it, folks.
Al Qaeda was successful in knocking down the towers because the Bush administration was asleep at the wheel.
FBI agents had been alerted about Mousouwi wanting to learn to fly a jet BUT NOT TAKE OFF AND LAND. John Asscroft and other high ranking officials had been warned in JUNE not to fly on commercial jets. The CIA daily briefing less than a month before 9-11 had a headline that said, “Al Qaeda Determined to Strike in the US.” Two 9-11 Saudis wanted for various violations were in THE PHONE BOOK in LA, but federal law enforcement couldn’t summon the will to track them down. Foreign intelligence agents–including the hated and cowardly French–were screaming about terrorist chatter.
Bush didn’t want to hear it. Al Qaeda was a Clinton concern. Bush & Co. hated everything about Clinton. On the morning of 9-11, Condi Rice was scheduled to give a speech about our biggest national security worry–ICBM’s and the need to stop them with Star Wars technology.
We won’t have another terrorist attack like 9-11 in the US by Al Qaeda. Even this bunch of incompetents can’t f*ck up that badly TWICE.
CapnAmerica,
I suppose Clinton was asleep at the wheel when the terrorists tried to blow up the trade center in 1993, attacked emabassies, Marine barracks, the USS Cole, etc…etc…
or was that all part of what you call the “Clinton concern?”
The attacks were in the works before Bush even took office.
Perhaps if Clinton would have actually taken Sudan up on their offer to hand over Bin Laden the attacks wouldn’t have happened… since we are speculating.
I count no less than a dozen terrorist organizations of Islamic orgins who are bent on the destruction of the US and its interests.
To attack an administration for not having an attack not occuring shows to me how totally out of control some people are with their hatred of this administration. The kind of thinking totally defies logic to me (and yes, save your fingers, I know mine does you.)
I count no less than a dozen terrorist organizations of Islamic orgins who are bent on the destruction of the US and its interests.
To attack an administration for having an attack not occur shows to me how totally out of control some people are with their hatred of this administration. The kind of thinking totally defies logic to me (and yes, save your fingers, I know mine does you.)
Nathan,
How long had Clinton been in office when the attack on the WTC occurred in ‘93? How long had Bush been in office by 9-11, 2001?
You notice that Clinton didn’t whine that it was all H.W. Bush’s fault even though he had only been in office LESS THAN A MONTH.
Clinton approved every CIA recommendation to attack Bin Laden and Al Qaeda. What? You didn’t see that in the right-wing funded bull-shit hit piece “Path to 9-11?”
Well, surprise, surprise.
Suicide bombings take place for one reason and one reason only: to get an occupier out of an occupied country.
It has nothing to do with religion. See Richard Pape’s book “Dying to Win: the Logic of Suicide Bombings.”
Since we have now occupied the Islamic country of Iraq, expect the motive for terrorism to continue.
Why would the likes of Disney put out a right wing piece?
“People run down Catholics and Christians every day, I haven’t seen too many riots or calls for assassination as a result. A ridiculous comparison.”
PEOPLE are not the Pope. There’s a difference, Todd. The Pope commands (gets the full attention of) the media. The average man/woman on the street doesn’t.
Damn it I need to read deeper before posting -
What about the martyrdom and the what is it 40 virgins in paradise for the suicide bombers? Doesn’t that have some religious roots?
CapnAmerica,
He might have just been in office when the attack in 93 came…
but what about the many more after that on his watch?
Bush has never whined about anything being Clintons fault either.
How did all those approvals go towards actually stopping terrorist attacks?
As usual with the left, it is not the results which count, just the intentions.
BTW, the attacks were planned by Khalid Shaik Muhhamed, who has already been arrested.
So to answer your debatable question, Nathan, even if Clinton had arrested Bin Laden in the Sudan, the operation would have gone forward.
Clearly, Bush’s chummy relationship with the Saudi monarchy (read anti-democratic KING and PRINCES and feudal bullshit) and anybody with a Saudi passport (the Bin Laden family had George Bush’s FATHER on retainer with his work in the Carlyle Group) was a major problem in fighting terrorism.
When you’re making a lot of money from a group of people–like the Bush family makes off the Saudis–it tends to cloud your vision.
It still doesn’t stop W. from KISSING and HOLDING HANDS with every robed POS Saudi that comes over with money in his wallet.
Check this picture that just makes you want to puke: http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0426/dailyUpdate.html
If I were the Democrats, I wouldn’t even campaign. I’d just run this picture.
CapnAmerica,
That is your response? LOL
Change the subject to Bush shaking hands with a Saudi? LOL
So which is it CapnAmerica, is Bin laden the only terrorist who counts or isn’t he?
So far Bush has dismantled most of the leadership of Al Quada, continues to kill or capture their leaders and the only thing the left can say is that he still has not found Osama…
but when I bring up that he was handed to Clinton on a platter all of a sudden he really didn’t matter…
LOL
“Symbolic hand-clasp between Bush and Saudi prince showcases solidarity, especially on oil policy. ”
And if Bush doesn’t get this type of deal done and you are currently paying $5.00 for a gallon of gas what would be your complaint then?
Back to Iraq not having a link to Al Qaeda or the War on Terror again?Try this one:http://wizbangblog.com/2006/09/18/saddam-hussein-offered-osama-bin-laden-asylum.php
“Symbolic hand-clasp between Bush and Saudi prince showcases solidarity, especially on oil policy. ”
And if Bush doesn’t get this type of deal done and you are currently paying $5.00 for a gallon of gas what would be your complaint then?
Back to Iraq not having a link to Al Qaeda or the War on Terror again?Try this one:http://wizbangblog.com/2006/09/18/saddam-hussein-offered-osama-bin-laden-asylum.php
I apologize for the mulitple posts. My connection sucks tonite.Good nite all
KIA,
Perhaps you should look into who owns what in this country, especially where the media is concerned.
Nathan?
Clinton never said bin Laden did not matter.
He SAID the US had nothing to hold him on. That was the truth.
BUSH has said that he “honestly does not think much about Osama bin Laden”
He said that AFTER bin Laden gave the US EVERY reason to apprehend and prosecute him on.
Hey it’s cool Nathan. Folks like you with everything to gain from a bush and republican government have are and will have everything to further gain by selling fear.
For that you need a bogey man. Osama bin Laden IS that bogey man.
You don’t catch the bogeyman. You use him.
http://corporate.disney.go.com/index.html
Am I wrong about ABC?What did I miss?
JR,
For your reading comprehension problem.
I said:
“but when I bring up that he was handed to Clinton on a platter all of a sudden he really didn’t matter…”
My comment does not say nor did it imply that I said Clinton said anything about Osama.
My comment was in response to CapnAmerica (who it was addressed to) in regards to his comment that:
“Nathan, even if Clinton had arrested Bin Laden in the Sudan, the operation would have gone forward.”
To address your blatant use of a quote out of context to further your own political agenda of hate for Bush:
When Bush said that he was answering some reporters question. It was meant to convey that Bush doesn’t sit around consumed with Osama.
If we were using him as a boogey man don’t you think we would be mentioning him a bit more or constantly talking about him.
He is not much of a boogey man for the right when the only people talking about him are those on the left when they keep throwing it in the Republicans face.
So whose boogey man is he really when it is those on the left including yourself who keep crying that he has not been caught yet?
Mr KIA,
It is the typical hate Bush either way standard.
High gas prices… hate Bush.
Bush shakes hand gets low gas prices… hate Bush.
It doesn’t matter either way to the left.
http://www.cjr.org/tools/owners/disney.asp
Unless Disney sold ABC today (which would be irrelevent since the movie in question is a week old now) I think I finally won one ;-)
Ben, Thank you for the information. Actually, I have long been aware that traditional patriarchal religions find women to be anathema. I do not belong to one, but not because of archaic writings, but rather due to the vestiges of that attitude that remain. I could be upset, by the writings of ill-informed and misguided clerics and scholars expressing the anti-woman stance of their times, but then I do not look for non-issues to be upset about. Today’s Eagle has a good article in the Opinion section that speaks to exactly what I was trying to express. The quotations you supplied are like comparing apples and oranges. They reflect one person attacking women, not two people having a dialog during in which one makes the statements you quoted, and the other asks, how the speaker reconciles that belief with the idea that Christians are to love one another, for example. Offended, no. Amused, yes. If the speaker were someone living today, an Imam or Ayatollah perhaps, I’d be annoyed, maybe even angry that anyone could express such a belief in this day and time = but then, they do despise women don’t they? So, should I go burn down some mosques, or even murder a Buddhist nun who has devoted her life to helping others? I think not. These radicals are cowards looking for an excuse to be angry. Maybe it makes them feel like men…their behavior makes them look like recalcitrant children.Thanks for the opportunity to dialog.
KIA,
You haven’t won anything.
Face it, folks. Only Republicans can assume to interpret what Bush meant when he said something.
Only Republicans can continue to repeat aleady debunked tales, ad nauseum.
Only Republicans know the true definition of torture.
Only Republicans have a plan–that never was.
Only Republicans are immune from taking responsibility for their words and actions.
Sure I did RD.The Path to 9/11 movie on ABC was called a right wing hit piece.I questioned why Disney (a corporation so left of middle it offers benefits to same sex domestic partners of its employees) would put a right wing hit piece on its air.You told me to look into who owns what in this country, especially in media.The links I provided list the ABC Network as part of the Walt Disney Corporation.
If I missed something on who is owner of ABC is, please show me.Thanks.
I think we can all agree that people killing people is wrong. That is of course, painfully obvious. The pope engaging in dialogue with Muslims may be imprudent given the present circumstances, but he is of course, well within his right to speak address Muslim violence. I must admit I was taken aback that the WEBlogs most ardent liberal CF expressed that the pope should not be able to speak about this issue.
EvidenceExhibit A:So why did that dumb son of a bitch of a pope throw gasoline on the fire and even mention Islam.
Is his so God Damned stupid that he doesn’t know that they’re as piss-off as anybody can possibly be, and just keep his fucking mouth shut.
Talk about anything right now, but for God’s sake have enough sense not to bring-up Islam.
But now that he’s gone and done it just say I’m sorry for being such a dunb-ass and be done with it.
Posted by: Ed Friedemann | September 19, 2006 at 09:59 AM
EvidenceExhibit B
Ed Friedemann,
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
Posted by: CF | September 19, 2006 at 10:06 AM
This leads me to believe my suspicions of the Left are true, that the Left is only concerned with “freedom of speech” when it is one of their own who speaks, but if it is a person on the traditional Right (and you don’t get any Righter than the Pope by the way, especially Benedict XVI) the Left tells them to basically “KEEP HIS FUCKING MOUTH SHUT.”
Regarding Muslim extremism, it is in the interests of everyone on the planet that this does not escalate into a culture war. We can not afford to use nuclear weapons. If we do so then we will lose all credibility with the billions of Muslims in the world. Those of you who state openly that we ought to “nuke em all” are you prepared to kill the over 1 billion men women and children who are practitioners of Islam? May the Lord rebuke you for even mentioning such a despicable course of action! I reiterate what I have stated on another thread, we can not win the War on Terror militarily, if we capture or kill all the extremists, their children and their children’s children will take their place, thus perpetuating the vicious cycle of violence. We must win this war diplomatically by taking away our enemy’s will to fight! Don’t give them any reason to attack us, and the cause of Bin Laden and the Jihaddists will fall on deaf ears! Not a single American or Middle Easterner need die.
Muslims are humans, just like christians just like jews….surely what is happening in muslim countries affects them and oh yeah why are so many people being nasty…i agree with will….there are children wome etc in palestine who have lost 20, 20 40 ….members of their family surely they aint gonna be very happy are they…one uk soldier is killed and tv stations are screaming about the loss yet noone recognises those peeps…no one help them and they didnt even have any military until hamas and when they do defend them selves war is declared on them…what kind of people are some of you….nukem this nukem that !!!….of they are gonna retaliate and even do martydom ops…but thats not all the point is that so much propaganda in us especially even uk is sooo biased…but should people be worried in us their president rigged the votes and now he has turned it into a a facist state..thats what you should be worried about and also yeh now there probably is more of a threat to us and uk…bush.
Muslims are humans, just like christians just like jews….surely what is happening in muslim countries affects them and oh yeah why are so many people being nasty…i agree with will….there are children wome etc in palestine who have lost 20, 20 40 ….members of their family surely they aint gonna be very happy are they…one uk soldier is killed and tv stations are screaming about the loss yet noone recognises those peeps…no one help them and they didnt even have any military until hamas and when they do defend them selves war is declared on them…what kind of people are some of you….nukem this nukem that !!!….of they are gonna retaliate and even do martydom ops…but thats not all the point is that so much propaganda in us especially even uk is sooo biased…but should people be worried in us their president rigged the votes and now he has turned it into a a facist state..thats what you should be worried about and also yeh now there probably is more of a threat to us and uk…bush.
Forgot to mention….not all muslims are arabs or even from the middle east, lots I know are English/ american and majority in Uk are british born…people are so ethnocentric! And if pope did want to quote about something (people living in glass houses shouldnt throw stones!) then he should have quoted from hitler he was christian and extreme in his belief we all know that…imagine if a muslim said that about christians.Do you know the most silliest thing I saw on tv was a the pope comments read by journalist about islam ruling by the sword and you convert or die and the a clip of a few very angry indonesians…irony is that indonesia is largest muslim populated country..not arabs but indonesians and no arab/msulim “sword” went there…they chose islam when the merchants sold their goods in there country and went to pray but trusted locals and left goods outside or where ever and didnt lock up there stores…peeps where astonished and became muslim by choice because of the good attitude ect so yes muslims are gonna be angry arent they!!!
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