Professors at the University of Kansas are criticizing the university’s recent decision to drop an anti-plagiarism Internet program, Turnitin.com, that they say is their most effective tool for catching academic cheats.
“This is like leaving a door to a bank unlocked,” KU political science professor Phil Schrodt told the Lawrence Journal-World. “Turnitin is a rational response to a problem. The problem is that a student can now download tens of thousands of term papers at the click of the mouse.”
About 38 percent of college undergraduate students say they’ve done cut-and-paste liftings from Internet sources for academic papers, according to a 2005 Rutgers University survey.
KU officials cite the software’s $22,000 cost, but isn’t ensuring academic honesty and the value of a college degree worth that cost?
Posted by Randy Scholfield
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95 Comments
Randy – they could cut out one of their many lobbyists and be able to pay for this program for 3 or 4 years.
It is shameful for the University that has millions and millions of dollars in their endowment fund but they cannot ensure that students are doing the work for a measly $22,000. They need to be called on it.
No reason to cheat!! It cheapens your education and SAYS alot about your character. Most people that I have known to cheat in college had other anti-social qualities about them.
I.E. my old room-mate who got busted for cheating at KSU, also got busted on e-bay for selling a defective product.
Too many affirmative action minority morons were getting caught and that is why they stopped using the program. Just give the poor things a degree on their first day of classes and end the pretense!
Viva La Raza Blanco!!
Hmmm. . .can’t find $22K to ensure the quality of education. . .exactly how many millions of our tax dollars are we throwing at KU? How much has the subsidized tuition gone up in the last five years?
It’s a good thing for KU that I’m forced to support them.
Could it be catching masses of cheaters affects the bottom line at KU? Legions of potential cheaters bailing for softer climes? Says tons about the character of KU.
Ian’s comment could be true, e.g. athletes who generate big money both in ticket sales and alumni donations. But, JMW’s follow-up suggests that it could potentially also be that affluent out-of-state students are disproportionately plagiarizing, yet they provide supertuition payments of tens of millions of annual dollars, so KU doesn’t want to drive them, i.e. their big dollars away. These students come to KU from states like Illinois and Ohio precisely because KU’s academic (assignments and grading) standards are more relaxed than at their own flagship u’s.
It could be that some prominent alumni’s own children have been caught.
But whatever is going on, it would not be unreasonable to conjecture that somebody may have made a decision that this little program is costing the university a lot more than $22,000 a year. (If KU faculty agreed en block to pony up the money, at about a personal cost of $30 per professor, and the administration rejected the proposal, that would be very telling.)
Federal privacy law may prohibit the public naming of caught cheaters. But the public deserves to know the general CATEGORY or categories of students who were caught, and why this moved administration to cancel the Turnitin.
The putative “copywrite” issue is bogus. Turnitin was developed at U California-Berkeley, which has a preeminent group of legal scholars at the law school. Due to Silicon Valley and Hollywood, California has some of the top copywrite-expert lawyers on the planet, and they’ve vetted it. Finally, the Turnitin databases is being used to prevent copywrited work from being ripped off. So this lame Kansas dog won’t hunt.
The sad thing is that KU was once one of America’s leading universities. It was the 22nd to be admitted to the Association of American Universities in 1909, long before Northwestern, Washington U in St. Louis, MIT, Vanderbilt, Duke, UCLA, U North Carolina, U Texas, U Washington… as well as the first university west of the Mississippi to found a Phi Beta Kappa chapter. But it’s arguably being transformed into what might someday deserve a new name, Lawrence State University.
KBOR decided to cease open-enrollment in our public universities several years ago, and developed a uniform “qualified admissions” standard for all of our public universities. KU should have been given its own higher standard, as the best flagship universities in America (California, Michigan, Virginia, Illinois, Wisconsin-Madison, Texas-Austin et al) have long enjoyed. Among other things, it acts to motivate high school students to aspire to do their very best, in order to gain flagship university admission. It can and does draw in outstanding non-resident students, who pay far higher supertuition than KU can currently charge. Wisconsin now charges $20,000. Michigan $26,000. Higher academic standards attract top-grade faculty who can bring in more federal research grant funding.
It isn’t a matter of offending alumni whose academically-indifferent offspring would be denied admission, nor of making the regional universities feel like second-rate institutions next to the flagship, so we can’t hurt anybody’s feelings. It’s a matter of developing a farsighted leadership-training institution to enable Kansas to prosper in the 21st century economy. Or not.
Didn’t KU spend something like $300,000 + on a new KU logo? Then later on found out it was pretty much the same as another University?
Very good points above. It is definitely sad to see KU falling in stature. As a non-Kansan I had always looked at KU as one of the premier public universities in the country.
Hell, they can Google sentences in the paper and be just as affective…
But, u guys r right, 22k is a drop in the hat at that school, what their budget, multi-millions?
Oh and GaryC. Not everyone who cheats are liars, cheats and thieves in the rest of their lives…
One thing that bothers me here is that students never learn to think and their faculty never learn their students. I have written a lot over the years. If I handed you something that was copied I would expect that the reader would recognize it as NOT being mine if he has been reading my writing. Similar with a classroom situation: I want to see a students arguements and reasoning; not a regurgitation of the literature references. THAT is where the student learns. And my favorite students were always those that went beyond the literature with their speculations as to meaning and implications.
Joe, it was, I think, $86,000 and also included a lot of other branding work. Kutztown University, the school with the similar logo, paid a lot less ($40-something thousand?) for the same thing.
Ben has an interesting point.
Students who lift sections en toto are likely to be producing pretty bad papers in the first place.
Unfortunately, it’s possible for a mediocre writer to briefly shine, or a good one to briefly suck and stuff. :)
One thing to consider: it may have been harder to plagiarize in the past, but the means to catch it were equally as hard. The technology is available to faculty and students alike, and it should include this type of thing, to keep the “arms race” even.
But profs who can’t smell a rat should not rely on this program to do their thinking for them.
I remember WSU doing a logo too – what a joke. Seems to me they could have done a local contest of marketing firms and anyone else who wants to join in. Payment? Bragging rights: “MY logo was chosen!”
Ben Huie,
Agreed. I have my students turn in a piece of writing on a daily basis. That way, I know their written voice and am better able to detect plagiarism. Caught two of ‘em in the Spring and both got F’s on the major assignment. It isn’t usually very hard to catch.
J M Walker,
Your point about the “bottom line” raises an interesting point about public universities in Kansas: namely, that they receive a relatively small percentage of their funding from the state. The remainder has to be made up from tuition and various grant monies. Being in this vulnerable position open the door to your accusation that if a cheating detection program is too successful, it’s actually bad for business.
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/15559454.htm
KU’s founders would say the light on the hill is dimming fast.
$22,000 is too much? Come on, people, this is a drop in the bucket. What is the academic reputation of a University worth? More than $22,000, I’d wager. Something else is going on here; while I’m not ready to join with J. M. Walker (yet), my finely tuned BS detector (developed while in the Air Force) is ringing loud and clear. Ben and CF are correct in their observations about writing, and knowing the students’ style, etc.
I am also one who thinks KU should be able to have its own admission standards, higher than the laughable ones adopted by the Board of Regents as a part of “Qualified Admission”.
As a student there in the late ’60s and early ’70s, the University was even then trying to promote something other than “if you graduated from an accredited Kansas high school, you’re admitted”, and look how long it took to get where we are now. There is little harm, IMHO, of having a state flagship university, rather than reducing all state schools to a level of mediocrity.
Gary C.,I think I would rather be among the 38% of cheaters than among your elite tattle-tale crowd. Piss off. I cheated because I procrastinated. Should I have taken an “F” in a science course that meant absolutely nothing to me? I think not. Sometimes getting through the first 60 hours of college feels like being in a forced labor camp. Studying subject that bore the mind results in people taking short-cuts. Piss on you and your little elite super-charged character ways. I assume you must run around in your adult life exclaiming what a man you “were” for never cheating in school. Guess what, Jesus Jr., I bet you struggle with relating to people because you are a pampered little tattle-tale. I worked full time through my entire college years. I got behind in many lame courses and I found a way to get through them. AND I did it without the internet!
Tom- It’s evident you didn’t waste any time taking Ethics classes in the Philsophy Dept.! It’s probably for the best- it saved you from needless headaches.
I should think that they wouldn’t need a software program to catch that kind of thing. Whatever happened to the minds of professors being keen enough to figure it out for themselves. Now they need a software program to do it. Oh GREAT.
Tom – I hope I never have to deal with you in the business world. Hopefully you will be sharing a cell with other ‘ethically-challenged’ white-collar guys soon.
I can imagine very limited, desperate scenarios where cheating might be ethically justified or at least rationalized. Even so, I CAN’T forsee any circumstances where the university should shirk its committment to academic honesty. Guess what, Tom: if you indulge cheaters, the standards predictably decline, and thus the overall quality of education.
Having worked full-time and gone to school for years myself, I have limited sympathy for that position, but your attitude sucks. I would have had NO sympathy at all for you if you got caught.
Greetings
Well, it is simple to think about KU’s decision in light of the way public education is going. Remember the science teacher who failed all those students because of plagerism. Didn’t that happen in Kansas?!?!?! Didn’t all those students get a passing grade even though it was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they cheated. KU is doing nothing new that public education already tacitly supports.
As for Tom, you should not be too harsh on him. He is a prime example of this system. He is also probably going to be earning millions of our hard earned money. Think Exxon. Think Enron. Think typical big business in America. Think our government. And just remember, we in Kansas support these people from the bottom up.
Having been a teacher, and a KU grad, I agree with the writers above.
CF; you’re exactly right; if I’ve read a student’s other writing with any regularity, I can spot the “cheat” paper. But the software provides another avenue of investigation; for a measly $22K certainly KU can afford to keep at least the appearance of standards up.
There’s more to this story.
And Tom: What can I say? Your own writing tells us what your word is worth – nothing. Lame rationalization doesn’t change it. Grow up.
GMC70,
Indeed. $22,000 may seem like a lot of money to pay for what amounts to a fig leaf, but where the academic credibility of the institution is the issue, you’d think the Regents would regard it as money well-spent.
Business students mostly – that says something …
“BOSTON (Reuters) – Graduate business students in the UnitedStates and Canada are more likely to cheat on their work thantheir counterparts in other academic fields, the author of aresearch paper said on Wednesday.The study of 5,300 graduate students in the United Statesand Canada found that 56 percent of graduate business studentsadmitted to cheating in the past year, with many saying theycheated because they believed it was an accepted practice inbusiness.”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Note “theycheated because they believed it was an accepted practice inbusiness.”
http://my.netscape.com/corewidgets/news/story.psp?cat=50900&id=2006092108080002557756
Ladies and Gentlemen,You despise my words, my honest words. I told the truth about my experience. Now, I spoke about my experience only. I returned to college and recieved an MBA. During this process I never once thought of or felt the need to cheat. I receieved a 4.0 gpa in my graduate studies. When I was cheating in undergrad, it occured during the first 60 hours. I did not have a routine, a discipline for school, nor much concern for my grades. I dropped out for a semester mid-way through the process and when I came back I amended my ways and because my attitude and focused changed I was engaged to succeed without cheating.It is interesting to see how many of you nambi-pambi do-gooders jumped all over me. I would really like to look into your closet to see what you are hiding. I grew up and grew out of my profligate ways. To suggest that I am unfit to work among business professionals shows a complete lack of faith in humanity. It appears to me that this is a case of those who never did cheat making themselves look high and mighty against those who did.In my business and civic leadership responsibilities I would catergorize you folks as pretentious jack-asses. Who are you, who is anyone,, to judge how people develop. I can assure you this. I have made a very successful life for myself and it would not have happened without honesty and forgiveness.I would be scared to be in a room of people who ‘claim’ they have never cheated. Why? Because most would be dishonest. It’s about forgiving oneself for their mistakes and poor judgement and moving on. The toughest thing is to forgive others.I think the Enron boys all had something in common with most of you on this blog: arrogance.Fix that, you jack asses.
You are really funny Tom. You didn’t acknowledge cheating as something not good but rather bragged about it. And then in your namby-pamby immature arrogance told everyong to “piss off”.
I don’t think anyone here claimed to have never cheated or sinned. The difference is that in your arrogance you extol cheating as a virtue.
For all of those that have turned this story into an excuse to bash KU, ie saying that because of their open admissions, more ‘riff-raff’ is getting in and lessening the University’s stature, I beg to differ. One reason is for the supposed dip in education quality could be the massive decline in state support for higher education at all public universities in Kansas, not just KU. Also, the open-admission policy contributes to a more diverse student body, which is a plus, especially at a flagship U like Kansas. And for all the talk about KU’s decline in prestige, you have left out one important point: KU is still the finest university in Kansas, hands down.
(I will admit, I am a *little* biased, as I am a student here at KU. I went to WSU before I transferred here, and this is no knock on WSU, the quality of education and the student life are far superior in Lawrence, probably because, rightly or wrongly, WSU is considered a commuter school and hardly any one lives on or near campus)
Despite the problems with open admissions, I don’t favor barring the door either, at least not until we rid ourselves of subpar public schools (note: I did not say THE public schools. . .).
Rage – I tend to favor using the CCs to handle that – two years there and then on to KU.
Piss off.
Well said Tom. You expressed your level of maturity perfectly. I give you an “A”.
Ben,I didn’t create this word but I am sure it was created for you: pretentious.
Tom
WOW! Did your mommy look that up for you?
Maybe the real problem is that in today’s society, cheating is going on everywhere and we have all just let it slip on by.
Bill Clinton cheated on his wife but the Republicans who were pointing their fingers at Bill were found out to be doing the very same thing. Why is cheating bad when Clinton does it but everybody else gets a pass?
The young people today formed their moral compass during the last 18 years. Think about that time period. Bill Clinton was in the WH for 8 and George W. has been in for 6 years. That is 14 years.
Perhaps this cheating issue is more of a reflection on our society as a whole?
cut/pasted from another blog …
A PLANE IS ON ITS WAY FROM LOS ANGELES TO HOUSTON WHEN A BLONDEIN ECONOMY CLASS GETS UP AND MOVES TO THE FIRST CLASS SECTION ANDSITS DOWN. THE FLIGHT ATTENDANT WATCHES HER DO THIS AND ASKS TO SEEHER TICKET. SHE THEN TELLS THE BLONDE THAT SHE PAID FOR ECONOMYCLASS AND THAT SHE WILL HAVE TO SIT IN THE BACK.
THE BLONDE REPLIES, “I’M BLOND, I’M BEAUTIFUL, I’M GOING TO HOUSTONAND I’M STAYING RIGHT HERE.”
THE FLIGHT ATTENDANT GOES INTO THE COCKPIT AND TELLS THE PILOTAND THE CO-PILOT THAT THERE IS A BLONDE BIMBO SITTING IN FIRST CLASSTHAT BELONGS IN ECONOMY AND WON’T MOVE BACK TO HER SEAT.
THE CO-PILOT GOES BACK TO THE BLONDE AND TRIES TO EXPLAIN THATBECAUSE SHE ONLY PAID FOR ECONOMY SHE WILL HAVE TO LEAVE ANDRETURN TO HER SEAT. THE BLONDE REPLIES, “I’M BLONDE, I’M BEAUTIFUL, I’MGOING TO HOUSTON AND I’M STAYING RIGHT HERE.”
THE CO-PILOT TELLS THE PILOT THAT HE PROBABLY SHOULD HAVE THEPOLICE WAITING WHEN THEY LAND TO ARREST THIS BLONDE WOMAN WHOWON’T LISTEN TO REASON.
THE PILOT SAYS, “YOU SAY SHE IS A BLONDE? I’LL HANDLE THIS. I’MMARRIED TO A BLONDE. I SPEAK BLONDE.”
HE GOES BACK TO THE BLONDE LEANS OVER AND WHISPERS IN HER EAR,AND BLUSHING SLIGHTLY SHE SAYS, “OH, I’M SORRY.” AND SHE GETS UP ANDGOES BACK TO HER SEAT IN ECONOMY.
THE FLIGHT ATTENDANT AND CO-PILOT ARE AMAZED AND ASKED HIM WHATHE SAID TO MAKE HER MOVE WITHOUT ANY FUSS.I TOLD HER, “FIRST CLASS ISN’T GOING TO HOUSTON.”
I figured it fit well here with the rest of the comic relief.
ddub! You’re right! WSU is considered an urban university. Hardely anybody lives on campus and most people who attend WSU live around the Wichita area. Also there are many people who are returning students or upgrading their degrees.
I was down in Stillwater at OSU yesterday and that is a very active and beautiful campus. But you can tell it has a very active campus life because many young students live in the dorms or rental houses around the University.
The only thing to remember is that most graduates of WSU live and work in Kansas. KU is a different story. Most people who graduate KU will leave the state.
So living in a campus town maybe a better college life, but it doesn’t equate to jobs or benefits to the host state.
Very true Joe. The REAL value that WSU should have is for continuing professionsl education. Unfortunately they do not do that as well as they should. If they did that it could be a cash cow for them as we use our tuition reimburse,emt checks to go there.
Ben!!!
There are tuition reimbursement checks for continuing ed? You get PAID to keep up in your field?
What a concept. Would that teachers had that (and lawyers!!).
Yep! Over the years I have sued that in various places. A good example that WSU could emulate is U Pittsburgh where several of us took a “Special Topics” class every semester. Gulf Oil paid for it and it also kept communications channels open between the U and the companies. As long as the class was at night the company was quite liberal.
WSU’s problem here is that they don’t do many such night classes. That is why I did my MBA at Newman.
Funny thing one semester – the professor made a couple of us teach part of the class! We had special expertise in a particular area of spectroscopy that we did at Gulf Oil. Pitt loved it because they didn’t have to pay us – our company wouldn’t allow it under those circumstances.
Earlier it was mentioned that if profs familiarize themselves with students’ writing, they wouldn’t need software. You have to bear in mind that in many large university classes, TAs grade papers and tests, and the same TA may not read all the same student’s papers. Plus they are working on their own research.
Finally, if only one term paper is assigned, it’s pretty difficult for any prof or TA to get a sense of a student’s voice, although a degree of apparent advanced writing style may be grounds for strong suspicion of “ghost-writing”, but it is hard to prove, and even suggesting an accusation without proof can trigger backlash.
There was an article about this in the Chronicle of Higher Education, with instructors’ anecdotes. In one case an internet-using student failed to retype the last page after downloading a paper, which had the company’s URL. When confronted, the student exclaimed, “You mean somebody put my paper on the internet?”
From Tom———————————–Gary C.,I think I would rather be among the 38% of cheaters than among your elite tattle-tale crowd. Piss off. I cheated because I procrastinated. Should I have taken an “F” in a science course that meant absolutely nothing to me? I think not. Sometimes getting through the first 60 hours of college feels like being in a forced labor camp. Studying subject that bore the mind results in people taking short-cuts. Piss on you and your little elite super-charged character ways. I assume you must run around in your adult life exclaiming what a man you “were” for never cheating in school. Guess what, Jesus Jr., I bet you struggle with relating to people because you are a pampered little tattle-tale. I worked full time through my entire college years. I got behind in many lame courses and I found a way to get through them. AND I did it without the internet!———————————–
Geez Tom don’t you think your jumping the gun on me a little bit. First off Im not much of a tattle tale. I could care less what wrong things others happen to be doing.
Second of all Universities require hours in un-related subjects, so you get a well rounded sense of how other areas of knowledge operate. If they didn’t, they would be considered trade schools.
“Piss on you and your little elite super-charged character ways”I don’t know how you got this from what I posted above. Have we met?
“I assume you must run around in your adult life exclaiming what a man you “were” for never cheating in school”
I cheated a few times in High school, but I came to realize that I was short-changing my mind if I didn’t bother to challenge myself.
“Guess what, Jesus Jr., I bet you struggle with relating to people because you are a pampered little tattle-tale”
Once again have we met?“I worked full time through my entire college years”
I worked 20-30 hrs a week, which included the weekends. I was either attending school or going to work 7 days a week. Im glad for it. It taught me a lot of discipline, and how to rightfully earn something.
“Sometimes getting through the first 60 hours of college feels like being in a forced labor camp”
Okay lets go through a sample of the possible first 60 hrs of college. Tom Style
College Algebra – fuck I don’t need to count, or add, subtract, or conjure up solutions that involve multiple variables. Ive got fingers I can count on and a calculator
College English – Who needs to read, and report on what they read? Or for that matter write an opinion on something supported by facts with a formal layout. IVE GOT RUSH LIMBAUGH
Psycology – I don’t care how people think and react!! Nuff said
Sociology – who cares how people act around others and what concerns them in their respected communities!! Ive got plenty friends
Earth and Science – If God wanted us to know these things he would have wrote it in the bible.
Speech – Who cares about careful, thoughtful ways to say things. I just say what is on my mind.
Yes I may be jumping the Gun on you Tom, but you leave my imagination no other choice but to wonder what type of thinking you may have.
And that would be game, set, and match!
Tom’s first 60 hours plaint is not unreasonable. My university required 10 distribution courses. Except for English Comp I, you could take the rest at any time. I saved up most of my humanities and social science courses for senior year. It was great. These courses didn’t correspond to my 18-19 year old brain. By age 21-22 when had matured they made sense, and I really enjoyed them. I even attended a few visiting afternoon and evening lectures, which were not required, just to broaden my horizons.
I was a science student, and frankly I think the “math” and “science classes” created to be passable by science, humanities and art students are a fraud. Science, math, and engineering students don’t get to take sociology or history to be easily passable by them. They have to take the same courses as the subject-majoring soshies do. A real double standard if there ever was one.
The major reason for this chicanery is that the social science and humanities department know that without forced course-taking, they wouldn’t have as many students as they need to have the faculty sizes they desire. It’s manulative, abusive behavior.
At Brown, I think English is the only required course (and is credited for students who have high AP scores). It has become extremely popular, attracting kids ranging from future novelists to engineers. So Brown doesn’t have to create mickey mouse ss and hum courses for “I couldn’t care less about this subject” students, wasting money, and fomenting a counterproductive “I’ll just do enough to get by” attitude.
Erratum. I meant to write:
I was a science student, and frankly I think the “math” and “science classes” created to be passable by NON-science humanities and art students are a fraud. Science, math, and engineering students don’t get to take sociology or history courses designed to be passable by them.
I hate plagarizers. I get good grades in college the hard way–I pay people to write my papers for me.
Hope this one wasn’t used already:)
Heartlander, your observation about nonscience-major science classes is spot on. I took both basic biology courses (changed my major several times) and I was astounded at the difference. I would love to see LA majors challenge their left brains and take some science with teeth!
Only introductory science courses were required for my computer science degree, so economics determined my choices therein (I do have a minor in math). But it does bother me when anyone would claim that a science course “means nothing” to them. I just can’t see being that incurious about the natural world. I would concede that, as a lifelong science buff, it may just be my own bias, but it looks a lot like the ol’ BA/MBA/BMW syndrome to me.
P.S. I suppose I should have said “natural science” courses, but I figured people would know what I meant. :)
Isn’t it interesting how heartlander hijacks every thread even remotely related to education and turns it into his personal bulletin board to spew anti-public education rhetoric?
Hell folks, heartlander should be anointed education commissioner of the WORLD! He claims to know all the “problems” with the K-18+ education system. Get this, he THINKS he has all of the answers.
Bloggers, have you heard the phrase “don’t feed the trolls”? The theory applies with heartlander as well. It doesn’t matter if you react to his posts or not, his nonsense just keeps coming and coming. You may agree with some of the minutia he describes, but don’t let him drag you into his personal psychosis.
Ever notice how Apophis has nothing constructive to say? As schools loose credibility, and people like heartlander and myself make suggestions, the Apophis’s of the world fiddle and call people names. There should be a thread called “troll crossing” and Apophis hisself could spout all the vitriol he wants.
I never took the SAT.
Went to WSU right out of high school ACT test surprised me because very high grades in Science and Math, classes I had trouble with just months earlier in high school.
I did go from a F in high school Chemistry in the first semester to a B average at the end somehow. That leap in mental maturity end of Senior year helped me on the ACT test.
I went to WSU get training how to draw graphics. Before PC’s so it was tricky making copies of things we created for other people in the class. A lot of cut and paste with glue, multiple printed papers. It was nuts. Couldn’t draw free hand fast enough either. Had to draw angles and lines, buy a lot equipment for one class. I just wanted pencils and art paper, free hand drawing. Learning at WSU was a headache in that major. A friend complained he was getting a Computer Science degree and never spending enough time on a PC.
Nobody had a PC at home.
It wasn’t until I transferred to KSU that I finally started using my science and math “smarts”. Biology and Chemistry, Psychology, so much “easier”. I had a girlfriend she was brains in Algebra, how fast she figured math out, we did it together but never cheated by sharing answers. She taught me through Algebra 1 and 2.
I drew at KSU free hand just for fun in art classes. It was great.
I was labeled a cheater in Biology class but the professor knew my knowledge supposedly, I was shocked. A friend copied by class work but it his ability to get higher grades on tests. He kept getting drunk and missing class so it was bizarre how he passed tests.
My friend owned up to the cheating blamed it on alcoholism, professor apologized, I didn’t take it.
So professors knowing who cheats and doesn’t I don’t believe some have that ability. Students cheat for a variety of reasons and mostly its due to immaturity.
The problem with college and young people, they shouldn’t hurry their college education, forcing themselves to cheat through home work and not learn a thing just pass the class to move on. Many got degrees that aren’t useful long term in their lives.
What I learned in my 20’s isn’t helping me, 20 years later. That college education lasted until I was 32.
I do need continuing education, get some economic badges of authority. I have economic theories. I’ll take classes at WSU and online with other colleges for the next decade.
College should be easier with PCs, that’s pretty evident. Far easier to find sample questions and information, it takes maturity to not cheat papers from the net.
I “hate” KU, just because its been a sports rival at WSU and KSU.
The campus is pretty in Lawrence. I remember being sprawled on a hilly sidewalk near the football stadium before KSU-KU game. People I knew from KU saw me on the ground, drunk at noon, couldn’t believe it was me, but they didn’t help me up either. I fell down from laughing too hard. I fell down the hilly part of the sidewalk.
Had a great time later that night, sober, at a fraternity party, corrupting a KU sorority girl. That surprised my KU friends, that girl didn’t give them acknowledgment before. I had “powers” from being a combo guy WSU/KSU personality. Not some wanna be riser in the KU student hierarchy. How they shame each other in Lawrence really happens. Its family reasons, what high school cliques, a lot of personal crap in Lawrence judging people not found in ManhattanWSU needs to play KU in basketball again. KU is shaming WSU right now for no reason.WSU needs to needs to raise the GPA on entering students to 3.0 and freeze tuition.
The unbalanced state pay to colleges has to be upgraded in Topeka. State isn’t paying enough, too much costs on students.
If our high schools have more money now, future kids have to be smarter getting into WSU. There are choices at junior colleges and elsewhere if their grades aren’t high enough.
PC’s today should help kids learn faster even if they don’t cheat.
WSU football is coming back. I’ll be economically authority branded so its a truthful cost, not so much on taxes, more from investors, we need a new stadium to do a variety of events, we’ll start after the downtown arena is finished.
I’ll gladly hire KU taught accountants. Some from KSU and WSU so we’ll all “argue” at the office.
Even smarties need to watch sports, attend a football game. Have that campus “air”. WSU campus has to feel younger, there is process to attract more young people same level as KU and KSU. We have to create the incentive.
No shaming will continue in the future. WSU will play KU and KSU in all sports every other year. Home and away even. That may not happen for a decade, but it will.
GaryC – well written comments above answering Tom’s infantile temper tantrum.
heartlander – I think that “non-major” courses can be designed, it just takes some work. I like the idea of having them – at MIT I was required to take a fairly large load of history, religion, etc, that had nothing to do with chemistry (my major). I agree with another comment above that this is what makes the difference between a university and a trade school.
I would like to see ‘humanities’ majors required to take some good science survey courses. Many of the issues facing us as a society have their roots in science just as many others have their roots in history and religion. To be a good citizen we need to be literate.
Mrage – agree that WSU should be playing KU in B-ball. Don’t agree on football though. As I implied above, I think a large part of WSU’s mission should be continuing education; sports don’t really apply the same way there.
If you look at the size of WSU’s “under-25″ student body I don’t think you see numbers that would support big-time football. If you look at Kansas overall three teams is just too many for our size. Show me other states that try to support that many compared to size. (We have 4 congressmen and two teams. California has something close to 60 congressmen, do they try to support 30 teams?). That said, I wonder about the feasibility of smaller football competing with schools like Pittsburg State, Ft. Hays St, Friends, etc.
I used to resent Apophis’s “stalking” me on WEBlog and shooting me with his diatribe firehose, but I’m a pretty quick learner. I operate in the realm of acquiring knowledge and sharing it. His modus operandi is firing off ad hominems, never answering any reasonable questions posed to him, and expressing a defeatest ideology. He has made at least one statement to the effect of, “you have no clue of what kinds of STUDENTS we educators have to deal with.” Let’s hypothetically assume that this correct. Gee, where did their PARENTS receive their “educations”? Whose fault is it that the parents cannot help their children with homework, or get knots in their stomach thinking about schoolwork? I didn’t educate these parents. The public school system, of which Apophis is a younger member, did.
I’ve forgotten more science than Apophis ever learned. Why? Because whether we like it or not, all education is a filtering system. I didn’t invent the system. In the old days, when craftsman apprenticeship training was the norm for boys, apprentices were taught and tested, and those who were unable to acquire skills as rapidly as others were mustered out. This is the nature of a civilized, specialized-skills-driven society.
Schools “track” students. Most artificially quash the brightest academic-talent’s potential. Most don’t evaluate non-academic talent and channel kids who have it into appropriate pathways. Schools aren’t designed to find out WHAT KIDS ARE GOOD AT, and dedicatedly cultivating their unique talents, which might, if we exercised wisdom, include allowing kids to leave school after the age of 12 or 13 and hooking up with non-school-based master trainers.
In Asia, math and science secondary teachers are people who didn’t qualify for university faculty positions. They are men and women who could readily have gotten through many U.S. Ph.D. programs in math and science. In the U.S. there are some public schools that have this level of teaching quality. At Evanston Township High, one of the science teachers, who has a Ph.D., worked as a research scientist pharmaceutical company, and founded a biotech company. He decided to teach teenagers, in order to share with them a real scientist’s knowledge. Nearly all the school’s math and science teachers earned College of Liberal Arts and Sciences bachelor’s degrees.
But in most communities, including Wichita, math and science teachers are people who were not distinguished high school students in these fields, and who had no potential to pursue careers requiring high math and science skills. So they were invited to become “math” and “science” teachers.
If, in a system that could readily recruit subject-exper language arts and social studies teachers at $28,000 starting salaries, but had to pay $50,000 to subject-expert math and science teachers in order to get well-qualified talent, you’d see great math and science teaching and student-performance results. But Apophis is vehemently against this. So he proves himself to be opposed to high-quality math and science teaching.
Disagree? How many teams has Wichita sent to the American Mathematics Olympiad? Who are the American Mathematics Contest 8, 10, and 12 coaches in this town? These are mathematics competitions. You can’t understand science without understanding mathematics. But let’s then look at science itself. Who are the Intel Science Talent Search and Siemens Westinghouse competition coaches here?
You have the requisite student talent here to make some impressive accomplishments.
Look at NCLB and AYP. If Ark City, which has only slightly better economic demographics than Wichita, can have white students in 7th grade in 2005 posting 2011 AYP-target scores, and black students in 7th grade posting 2008 AYP-target scores, which is to say, that economically-disadvantaged little town is going to probably meet the NCLB 100% requirement–AHEAD OF SCHEDULE–what’s USD 259’s REAL problem? The tyranny of low-expectations imposed by ADULTS? What are we doing with a HALF-BILLION dollars per year? Maybe a staggering, obsolete, money-squandering brontosaur bureaucracy is the problem. Perhaps USD 259 should be broken up into smaller, fully-independent, nimble, can-do districts.
Ben, I took social science and humanities courses, actually a couple of them were upper-division, and I enjoyed them. What I was talking about was this bogus creation of math and science courses for people who don’t understand the subjects (and will not understand them after taking the courses), so that they can complete their distribution requirements. Math, science and engineering students don’t receive equitable treatment.
heartlander, you said -
“But in most communities, including Wichita, math and science teachers are people who were not distinguished high school students in these fields, and who had no potential to pursue careers requiring high math and science skills. So they were invited to become ‘math and ’science’ teachers.”
Could you please provide a citation for this statement?
heartlander – I agree. However I do believe that decent survey science courses CAN be designed. I would probably center them around the earth sciences since that can then be related to things the students see in their lives (flooding, earthquakes, etc). That would be a starting point. My goal is simply scientific literacy so people don’t get trapped looking for ‘holy grails’ that are nothing more than perpetual motion machines as technical fixes to problems.
An example: some people I have talked to who advocate hydrogen fuel. I ask where they get the H2 and they say water. However when I press to find the ultimate energy source they get really bogged down. Electricity. Where to get the electricity? Burn the H2. And so on.
Some of my nevironmentalist friends get upset with me because I demand that we look at the science. If their basic literacy were better it would be a lot easier.
“Isn’t it interesting how heartlander hijacks every thread even remotely related to education and turns it into his personal bulletin board to spew anti-public education rhetoric?”
Actually, Apophis, heartlander hijacked the thread to bash “non-major” science courses watered down to accomodate other majors who can’t handle the rigors of hard science–a practice I also regard as unnecessary and deplorable. I agree that portion of his post was off-topic and, yes, heart does have an agenda that’s fairly well-known here. So what? I responded to the portion that was relevant to the thread.
Then YOU came along.
Who’s really “feeding the trolls” (your phrase) here? If you didn’t exist, Apophis, I think heart would have to invent you. . .
P.P.S. Take a cue from CSA above . . .
Actually CSA, I have seen similar information about many math/science teachers. However, that was some time ago and I think they have rectified the situation, at least some. Part of the problem was that teachers had to be Ed majors rather than subject majors.
P.P.P.S. heart, I would concede that e.g., high school math teachers don’t necessarily have the skills of those who have studied math professionally, but Apophis DOES have a point about vapid bullshit like that statement. Some school districts DO hire incompetent teachers, but it’s nothing endemic to the system.
Well, there are no exact publicly-available data. The data exist, but are locked up in ed-school files. I wish the ed schools were required to post their secondary-subject certificate recipients’ ACT scores, not individually, but in quartile bands.
So we must make indirect-information inferences. These can be very probative. For example future chemistry teachers in this state take an organic chem survey course, as well as a physical chem survey course. These broad-but-shallow courses do not attract chemistry-passionate students. What do I mean? These courses cannot present the subject in the same concept-rich manner as the corresponding courses for chemistry and chemical engineering students. It is impossible for a single-semester course to contain the same content as a two-semester course. Furthermore the P chem survey course doesn’t even have a laboratory, while the regular course does.
A few years ago, I tabulated the laboratory-hours requirement for chem and biology teachers. The former was a bit more than 200 hours, the latter about 160 hours. In essence, this corresponds to less than 6 WEEKS of 40-hour-per-week work. Let’s be serious. How much can you learn in that span of time? It common for today’s chem and bio degree students to spend a 1000 hours, or more, in laboratory activity, specifically because they do advanced-course labs and research projects. If you don’t think the difference is massive, think again: 6 MONTHS full time equivalent training.
In mathematics secondary teacher programs, the freshman-sophomore math sequence is the same as for math, physical science and engineering degree students. The capstone course for future teachers is junior-level modern algebra. But this is an entry course for upper-division mathematics degree students, to a world of mathematical wonders that future high school teachers are denied exploring, unless they do something like earn math degrees, then take M.A.T. or M.Ed. degrees, which is sometimes done, but not very often, and top private schools disproportionately recruit these highly-mathematics-knowledgeable teachers.
Any reader here who found a major subject that he or she was really enamored with, and did very well in, knows that he or she would not have wanted to have his or her education curtailed, because, the upper-division courses for relevant degree pursuers are THE MOST INTERESTING COURSES. The earlier courses build the knowledge and skills necessary to tackle the challenging and interesting higher-level courses.
Only people who aren’t interested in mastering science are willing to let their own science education be curtailed, whether through taking fact-and-formula-based survey courses, or through stopping at first-semester junior year course level. If you find something you love, are you going to let a teacher-training curriculum make you walk away from it? “You’ve learned enough science, now you just have to learn to teach it”? Not in my experience.
In many research universities, large percentages of students spend half their senior-year hours doing lab and field studies. If you loved science, and were really good at it, would you be willing to forgo that opportunity because it conflicted with the teacher-certification course regimen? Seriously, think about it.
Leon Lederman proposed teaching physics first, then chemistry, then biology. He knew that it would be impossible to teach trig-based physics to 9th graders, but he envisioned a sequence that introduced the mechanical, followed by the molecular, followed by the complex, living molecular/mechanical. Anyone who understands modern biology recognizes the soundness of this proposal. It is still in “beta testing”, but the sequence is correct for the 21st century. Modern biology is not “natural history”.
So how many Kansas schools have done a “physics first” pilot program? I don’t believe any, and I’ve examined hs curricula in Johnson County, home to Kansas’s top-rated and most-progressive public schools. To make it work, you have to have biology teachers who substantially understand physics and chemistry. But Kansas’s biology-teaching certificate programs, even at KU, require only first-year general chemistry, and general physics, which is traditional 12th grade physics. To wit, the Kansas bio teacher training standards developers don’t understand modern biology’s chemical underpinnings.
There is more indirect evidence that Wichita doesn’t have highly-science-knowledgeable people. Wichita easily has enough very bright kids, probably 30-40 at least, to justify a public AP calculus BC course (full-year college equivalent). This course has been offered by the College Board since the early 90’s.
If Calculus AB (single-semester-equivalent) is taught in 11th grade, students can take Physics C courses in 12th grade, which have been available as well for more than a decade. With all the engineers in this town, there is substantial offspring talent to justify these courses.
If the science teachers in this city had very strong math and science ability and interest, we would have the preceding courses. Because these kind of teachers would love to teach advanced courses, given students who can benefit from them, which this city has.
So, if one looks at indirect evidence, a single metric may be misleading, but several taken together generate a reasonably accurate inference.
heartlander – I took a curriculum a lot like what you describe – back in Georgia in the 60s. Calculus was a lot of fun as was 2nd-year physics and chemistry. However, I did have a lot of trouble accepting quantum mechanics (”God doesn’t play dice”) and relativity. That was more a philosophical problem. (By the way, the book Physics and Philosophy is a good read)
Hey Ben-
>If you look at the size of WSU’s “under-25″ student body I don’t think you see numbers that would support big-time football. If you look at Kansas overall three teams is just too many for our size.
I know. Its going to take years, a decade to bring football back. We have “force” WSU to add more scholarship oppurtunties on campus. For girls in the beginning of this procees. Increase the under-25 age students that way. Increase the interest of under 25 to pick WSU as the college they will attend.
Soccer, swimming and field hockey likely girls scholarship sports added.
WSU can play Division 1 football because there are enough teams out of state. If WSU had to play in the same conference with KSU and KU, that wouldn’t work.
It’s not the students WSU doesn’t have your afraid of, its Wichitans inablity going to events. That you don’t believe is substational effort. Number of seats in the stadium. Division 1 needs 40 to 50,000 seats. Could that many Wichitans gather at least 6 times a year for the home games.
Unknown. The way to make it happen is get recognizable teams to play in Wichita. Gate receipts determine that.
The stadium will try to attract “Bowl” game as event. Or make a Bowl early in the season ( The WSU vs KU, or KSU game) Near Christmas bowl game. Two out of state teams.
Can Wichita be transformed into a “Bowl City”. All the amenties to for fans from out of state to have some fun in Wichita for a few days.
We’re not that city yet.
Can the stadium attract the Big 12 Championship football game as an event every 5 years or so. Make the offer to Kevin Weiberg, Big 12 Comissioner before his job is up. 2010, maybe until 2014. Weiberg former WSU staffer when they ended the program.
Is WSU as academically challenging same KU and KSU? Is WSU weaker academically now and its obvious less younger are attending the college. I would like WSU to raise GPA to 3.0, entering students. Puts the challenge on local high schools. If a great competitive education can be found at WSU that’s a draw too.
WSU has to try and increase same number of students like KU and KSU that should be their mission statement.
Wichita’s mission statement is make this city better. We don’t have the event facilities. The downtown arena isn’t enough that way. We can combine “county dirt shows”, WSU football on a grass field, hardcourt of any kind for NCAA events. Seats, 50,000 for the biggest events but screens can be lowered blocking empty seat sections for the smaller events.
We have the financing program to build a “destination” stadium. I don’t have all the finanical partners yet. A facility Topeka will promote to place events in.
mrage – as rosy as your scenario is I think you are crazy. Tell me any city that routinely gets 10% of the population to football games. There is only ONE – Green Bay. I don’t see Wichita as another Green bay.
You say you have the financing program but then that you don’t have the partners. Are you saying that you have a structure if people line up to write checks? Well, then good luck with that! Next post will be what I wrote long ago on football.
Letter to the eagle some time ago …
Football at Wichita State?
Proponents of bringing big-time football to Wichita State University have been pressing their case lately. However, their advocacy of this action lacks a plan to make this happen. I would like to propose a concrete action plan to bring football to WSU:
1. Hold a mammoth rally at Cessna Stadium to demonstrate community support for the effort. Proponents of a big-time football program should expect tens of thousands of fans to attend the rally. At that rally collect money that would serve to begin the establishment of an endowment fund for the football program.2. Place the funds collected into a secure account to serve as the base for further fund raising. The University can provide information to the football advocates as to the level of revenues required to establish the program.3. Continue fund-raising until enough money has been raised to cover the costs both of renovating Cessna Stadium and of building a football program.4. When sufficient funds have been collected; turn the account over to University officials so that they can establish the program.
If, in fact, there is sufficient support in the community for a viable football program at WSU the proponents of such a program should have no difficulty in raising this money. If successful, this fund-raising will demonstrate that support.
Show me any other state with as many big-time football programs as you are suggesting for Kansas. (relative to population)
heartlander, you were painting with a broad brush when you labeled “math and science teachers are people who were not distinguished high school students in these fields, and who had no potential to pursue careers requiring high math and science skills.”
Despite your lengthy inferential post, you don’t have the data to back up your statement.
I know of one Kansas high school science teacher who aced the science (and English) portions of the ACT, who was an honors science student in high school and college, and who holds an advanced degree in the subject they teach – not in education. This person also has the equivalent of an undergraduate math degree.
This person teaches at a Kansas high school which offers the physics-first program.
Please, heartlander, we know there are problems with the system. Whatever its other shortcomings, NCLB’s “highly qualified” proviso has enabled teachers to deepen their content knowledge as needed.
My point? Please use a finer brush, or dig a little deeper for more accurate information.
Ben-Your arguments are not obstructive. I don’t have to find other states similar in situation. Why not try to get 50,000 Wichitans together 6 to 8 times a year, it can’t be disproved until the process is tried.
I’m optimistic Wichitans can gather like other communities.
It’s not a program for today. Allow future growth to happen in Wichita.Aren’t more moving to Wichita in hundreds of numbers every year? To this area, within commuting distance to Wichita.
Are the biggest businesses hiring a few more and want to? Koch consolidated. Cargill. Cessna. Spirit. Retail jobs expanding. More accountants and bookkeepers. Law offices splitting, combining or growing.
Growth in Wichita, on all levels. More new homes built and sales of existing increasing.
People will alter their life schedule over time as the stadium is being constructed. They will try to find time on future Saturday’s to see a football game. Budget their money to buy season tickets or on that day.
Could scheduling happen, between KSU, KU, WSU that only two colleges play in state on those Saturdays if possible. It can happen that way. So out of city people can road trip to Wichita for a game. Wichitans won’t be road tripping as much to KU or KSU.
Wichita will be more dynamic, maybe we have casino downtown. We should.Don’t all the malls bring in out of towners for shopping? Are our hotels good enough to stay in, not so expensively.
Allow Wichita as a community needs a key event facility. It’s obvious. Subsidy at the airport demands we try to bring more events to town.
How can I have the financial partners today, 3 years before its discussed between County, City, WSU and interested parties, the group formed to pay for the stadium.
I know they exist, its just gathering them together. No, it won’t be hard at all to get folks in a meeting.
Business model exists in bond financing, the group could use. Its all there for Wichita to take advantage of.
I need WSU to try and be more dynamic as its mission statement. Add more students in scholarship oppurtunities. Add more interest kids choosing WSU to attend. Give them incentive to attend.
Good luck mrage. I still doubt your numbers. What you are proposing has never worked anywhere else in the country. If you can get investors then more power to you.
What did you think of my proposed steps? Might something like that either prove or disprove the feasibility of your dream?
“It can’t be disproved until it is tried”. Then what. You have a big empty stadium?
Then Wichitans will have a big empty hole in community involvement, their beliefs and concerns. They don’t care for other people, to join and see events.
It’s for the betterment of “kids” college student oppurtunities. It’s better we create more fun in town to see do.
If you forget Cessna Stadium completely as a place to play college football, we don’t need a “trial run”.
I would hope Cessna could be filled with fans interested in WSU football they help pay for the increased scholarship oppurtunties for all the new programs needed. Throw more concerts in Cessna stadium for that reason.
The WSU football progam will have the subsidy money Don Beggs has always talked about. WSU isn’t paying a nickel for the stadium. They have to create football program and maintain it. They will have operating funds.
New dorms, apartments have to built so the students can live near campus. Are those paid for by WSU or apartment builder companies.I’m for a more dynamic WSU with higher GPA entrance requirements. State fixes buildings on the campus. Professors are paid a decent wage. But the tuition has to be frozen for a decade, twelve years possibly so the costs aren’t increased on students. That gives WSU an advantage cost wise cheaper than KU and KSU as its trying to attract students.
We have to beat them in sports, play on their “level”. It’s why WSU is shamed today. WSU isn’t investing enough to have more younger than 25 age students. Wichita isn’t investing enough to make WSU more dynamic.
Out of state stadium designer know WSU lost its football program. They didn’t understand why Wichita hasn’t done something about it.
Why isn’t the city profitable enough in this community to have a Division 1 football team. Use a stadium for more than just football. Combine facilities, we can finally do that. Others have designed stadiums that we can use.
It took this much time for those stadiums to be created nationally since WSU ended the football program. We have few years left to take advantage. It would start now, but because of the downtown arena, the process has to start after that is finished.
Can’t distract County and City gov too much, their not able to do multiple tasks. We have a lot of unfinished projects needing attention in the city and county.
CSA, it sounds like your friend had many career options, and decided to teach in order to share his deep knowledge with young minds, connect with them and REALLY INSPIRE them. I had such a teacher. ONE. In 12 years.
Apophis is driven to raise teachers salaries. But is he driven to pay people like your friend the open-market value of his expertise? If so, this must be an underground campaign. Actually, I’ll bet your friend really doesn’t care about the money generated by union political activities. Why do I think this? Because he’s shown a willingness to give up much more lucrative careers to pursue a passion. Is my inference correct or mistaken?
BTW, is he teaching in a private or public school?
On the Kansas school using physics first, what school is it? Has USD 259 sent a delegation to examine it and bring home notes? To make this work, the school has to have a strong math program. San Diego has tried a weak-math variant, and La Jolla-area parents, led by people who work at UC San Diego, are rebelling against it.
I have heard that some teachers here are rebelling against “integrated math” developed by the NCTM, and endorsed as “the core curriculum” by the administration, and teachers are instead teaching traditional mathematics. Kudos to them for exercising excellent judgment, and denying the NCTM’s ideology, which holds that minority students and girls cannot do real math, which is a disturbing prejudice.
California dumped the NCTM version of “progressive math” a decade ago, after a group of Stanford-faculty-led evaluators who were gravely upset to find their own children becoming mathematics-incompetent, determined, through careful analysis, that the NCTM curriculum was math-teaching’s version of the equally disastrous whole language reading program.
The NCTM tried to cry “elitism”, and claim that public teachers college math faculty supported NCTM, but thoee faculty in California sided with the Stanford faculty, as did many well-respected high school math teachers, such as Jaime Escalante, who made calculus aces out of general-math students, hundreds of research scientists nationwide, including Fields Medal winners and Nobel Laureates, and the science and math faculties of the University of California and Caltech.
The Berkeley-invented “Math Circle”, a weekly open-enrollment math-exploration math-exploration course, now being emulated around the country, provided three of last year’s six-student American team to the International Mathematics Olympiad, which placed third after China and Russia. The coach, who teaches in Dallas, is now running a “Math Circle”. The upshot is: these people KNOW MATH.
California bolted from the NCTM standards for a reason: California’s economy is utterly math-and-science dependent. Even its agriculture is”, ranging from GPS-controlled furrowing and seeding, to soil-moisture-measuring automated drip irrigation to conserve water, to integrated pest-control management. California has far more than its population-based share of Nobel Laureates. Despite having 11% of America’s population it has ca. 25% of America’s National Academy of Sciences and National Academy of Engineering members.
The point being that California’s mathematician and scientist corps sent the NCTM and its political machine in California running with its tail between its legs, because the former knew vastly more about mathematics, and mathematics knowledge’s implications, than the NCTM.
Unfortunately, most K-12 school administrators here aren’t mathematically knowledgeable. If you’re not knowledgeable, you become easily bamboozled and intimidated by people who tell you they are experts, and that their program is used nationwide, so you’d be an ignorant fool not follow along, and you don’t want to look stupid do you?
Fortunately, some math teachers here are knowledgeable, but they can’t exert a strong enough force to move the central administration to enact a sound district-wide mathematics curriculum, because there aren’t enough of them to compel change. So a lot of kids are being dumbed down. This is hurting Wichita, and will have seriously adverse consequences over ensuing decades. You have to change course, because the rocks are straight ahead. You’ve still got time, but it’s running out.
On football, are we talking NCAA Division IA or IAA? The cost differences are enormous. Finding a league isn’t “automatic” for IA. Conference USA has 12 teams. Full. Mountain West has 9 teams, that’s potentially feasible. Sunbelt at 8 may be dobable.
It’s easier to start in IAA. The costs are a lot lower. It’s entertaining football. If you get good enough, then you can move to IA, and do well, like Boise State, but you have to be patient.
There are independent teams in 1A and that’s what WSU would have to do for a decade. Pick and choose to find “rivals”. Get teams nationally coming to Wichita.
They don’t have to be Miami, Norte Dame, but Louisville, TCU, Marshall kind of teams from a variety of conferences.
In the far, far future, if WSU gains more students, becomes attractive to a football conference completely, for all programs, so be it. Bye MVC or they could stay a “power” in the MVC and only be independent in football. What’s the best course, don’t know right now. The NCAA allows some flexibility the needs of the community, putting people in stadium seats.
1AA isn’t that good to do with a new program because of the marketability problems. A lot of 1AA are upgrading to 1A.
There could be a split in 1A so the college investment isn’t so high to compete with the bigger colleges. Two national championships among division 1A.
The cost of investment isn’t solely based on WSU paying for everything, that’s how it can be affordable to the college.
Hi heartlander -
You asked, “BTW, is he teaching in a private or public school?”
Later you stated, “the NCTM’s ideology, which holds that minority students and girls cannot do real math, which is a disturbing prejudice.”
Public – but your own prejudice/preconception is showing. :) Yes, that desire to teach seems to spring from a passion to spread the wonder and grandeur of science, but a spouse with a good job makes it possible.
As I understand it, Physics First isn’t a very practical idea for Kansas schools at this time. Local curricula are driven by the almight State Assessments, and their mile-wide-inch-deep approach seems to require that students receive a smattering of various sciences by spring of their sophomore year in high school, when testing occurs. In terms of test scores, it would make more sense to offer a solid physical science course (physics/chemistry/earth science/astronomy) to freshmen and biology to sophomores.
Anyway, this post has strayed far from the “Plagiarism U” topic.
IMHO, KU screwed up big-time. I know of some high school students who’ve been *nailed* with Turnitin.com. Stunning, and much more effective than simply googling key phrases.
No it hasn’t CSA…what’s cheating a KU, that doesn’t mean similar to KSU and WSU. WSU has to look at itself what cheating maybe going on there and procedures to stop it.
I’ve only expanded desires of WSU in this topic. The expansion of WSU could affect KU and KSU.
Thanks CSA for the info.
I’m sorry, Mrage, I was referring to my own posts as off-topic, not to yours or anyone else’s. I’ll try to communicate more clearly!
CSA,
I see that El Dorado offered physics-first under the leadership of Earl Legleiter, who, alas moved to Colorado to work for the non-profit education-analysis center, Mid-Continent Research in Education and Learning after doing physics-first at El Dorado HS for 5 years.
Under Mr. Legleiter’s visionary leadership, El Dorado High was one of the earliest adopters of physics-first (1998-99). Anyone who can convince a small-town high school’s BOE, administration and teachers to buy into a revolutionary experimental science-education proposition has well-beyond-ordinary abilities.
Here are some questions:
1. Is the program operating today? The web doesn’t answer this question, but maybe you know.
2. Were statistically-significant student-achievement gains made during Mr. Legleiter’s 5 year period of using the new curriculum, for example, in ACT Math and Science scores?
3. Did Mr. Legleiter leave in frustration, finding that the effects of his program were limited, perhaps due to circumstances beyond his control? Or did he find, “This works really well, now I want to work at a ‘think tank’ level to promote widespread change?
4. If statistically-significant gains were made, have they been lost?
I ask these questions for several reasons. Gifted individuals in some institutions can work wonders. I am married to one of these extraordinary people. But when they leave institutions, gains are often lost, because their personal passion and talent to teach and inspire others are crucial. To wit, some people are irreplaceable. It is very hard to create persistent “cultural change” in many circumstances, without a charismatic leader’s being there to personally maintain it.
In 2004, of all Eldorado 10th grade students combined achieved a 45% proficiency-or-better score on the state math assessment test. In 2005, that dropped to 26%. This is a horrendous drop.
At the hs level, only 31% of El Dorado students are economically disadvantaged, and 90% are white (5% Hispanic, 3% African-Amercan, 2% other). These factors do not explain El Dorado’s abysmal 2005 performance, because statewide 38% of 10th graders are economically disadvantaged, 7% more than at EDHS, and 8% are African-American, and 6% are Hispanic (3% and 2% more than at EDHS) . But statewide, 10th grade math proficiency+ scoring was 50% in 2004 and 51% in 2005.
A 1% rise is not adequate, but it least it isn’t a 19% FALL. Because physics and math are intertwined, there could potentially be a relationship between Mr. Legleiter’s presence, and his absence.
In the 10th grade science-assessment test, in 2003 (no data at ksbe.org for 2004), only 34% of El Dorado students scored proficiency+. In 2005, this rose to 38%. However both years scores are seriously anemic: the statewide proficiency+ scoring was 54% in 2003, and 58% in 2005.
There are no older science state-assessment data. The phys-chem-bio sequence is really designed for college preparation, so sequence-completing students would take the ACT as a natural concommitant. El Dorado students have been taking the ACT for decades. For these combined reasons, evaluating El Dorado’s ACT Math and Science score trends before and after 1998 would be highly probative.
Can you, or anyone else here access the data and report?
(As a “free-lancer” I can’t get information I need to perform the analyses I want to do. Maybe I should try to get an education Ph.D. and a university or think-tank position so I can access the info. ;) )
5. Finally, was EDHS the physics-first school to which you were referring, or is there another one out there? Can you name it? I can only find EDHS online.
I’d hate to see EDHS’s terribly deficient math and science assessment-test scores used as a seemingly compelling argument to halt any further attempts to implement physics-first in Kansas.
Does anyone know why heartlander seems fixated on El Dorado High School?
Does he actually live in that community or is he just going off on another of his tangents?
CSA said Kansas had a phyics-first school, so I googled it, and El Dorado was the only school that popped up.
We go to ED Lake, and usually drive through town. It seems like a very nice community with attractive homes and a prosperous-appearing downtown. The big I-35 Norman Rockwellish sign boosts the city’s homey, old-fashioned ambience. The city’s demographics are above average for Kansas. So, it just seems incongruous that its middle and high schools have well-below-statewide test scores.
Plagiarize!Let no one else’s work evade you eyes.That’s why the good lord made your eyes,So don’t shade your eyes,Plagiarize, plagiarize, plagiarize!Only be sure to call it please, research!- Tom Leherer-
On the positive side of south-central Kansas, I Ark City administrators, teachers, parents and students deserve a standing ovation. This little distict’s student demographics are only marginally better than USD 259’s. But Ark City Middle School’s 7th grade math scores statistically tie or beat those of every district in tony JoCo. Ark City’s black students in 2005 achieved the statewide, combined-races AYP target. Let me clarify that: In 2005 Ark City’s black students made the 2008 target. Their white students made the 2011 target. That’s a spectacular accomplishment. It deserves study and model replication ASAP. IMHO
Okay, I don’t post here in the blog very often, but I have to chime in on this entry. I’m an undergraduate at Wichita State, and every semester I’ve been here, at the beginning of every single course, we’re given the whole spiel on plagiarism and its consequences, blah blah blah, etc.
I find it insulting. I’m 27 years old and I’ve never cheated on a single assignment in school. There are several reasons:
1.) It’s dangerous, because if you get caught, your educational career goes right out the window.
2.) It’s stupid, especially in core major classes, because if you cheat to pass one course you’re not going to understand the material in subsequent courses, thus beginning a vicious cycle.
3.) Yeah this sounds trite, but it’s just plain wrong.
Frankly, I am sick of being treated like a criminal by default . I’ve been afraid, when writing essays and reports, that what I’m writing might somehow turn out to be similar to someone else’s writing when the grader inevitably runs it through whatever insidious new software they’re using now, and I’ll get charged with plagiarism. Considering how many millions of college students there are in the United States, it’s bound to happen eventually.
If I did, how would I be able to demonstrate that no, I didn’t cheat, I wrote it all myself? You can’t, really. You’re presumed guilty. Of course there are levels of appeal you can go through, but to me the process seems designed to swiftly eliminate anyone found guilty and give them no recourse in the end.
I don’t care if 28% of undergraduates have cheated in the past…that means 72% have not, and it’s unfair to punish the majority for the sins of the minority.
If people want to be stupid and cheat, let them. As someone else stated, more often than not professors are able to detect cheating just by knowing their students’ writing styles. We don’t need Big Brother-style monitoring and software and we don’t deserve to be treated like 12 year old juvenile delinquents. I pay something $7,500 a year to go to Wichita State University and I deserve that much respect, at least.
If the cheaters manage to graduate and get a degree, let’s watch how far they go in the real world when they didn’t actually learn anything, because they chose the quick and easy route. I don’t imagine it’ll be very far.
Patrick, you’re wise not to cheat. I would however be careful in judging others’ cheating. If you get into classes that grade on the curve, cheaters’ artificial score inflation can potentially hurt you, by bumping you down on the curve. What should have been a “B+” can become a “B-”.
If want to go to law or med school, or a competitive-admission MBA program, this can matter. If you just want a degree, it may not as much, but again, even here, “C’s” can go to a “D’s” with curve grading. Cheating does hurt honest students. I have a non-cheating child who found that out the hard way at a major university.
“If the cheaters manage to graduate and get a degree, let’s watch how far they go in the real world when they didn’t actually learn anything, because they chose the quick and easy route. I don’t imagine it’ll be very far. ”
I wish that were true, Patrick, but you might surprised at how far some people get with primarily paper qualifications. For Exhibit A, I give you former Vice President Dan Quayle (those with a little money can buy degrees online; those with a lot of money can buy them at Yale! :-).
As a civil libertarian, I share your concerns about due process, but you don’t often hear of the wrongly accused getting sanctioned. In any event, that’s an argument for being more careful, not for abandoning the policy.
Turnitin was developed at Berkeley. Believe me, they’re not trying to turn the screws on honest students. Like I flunked O Chem exams there. Holding down two jobs. Tryna party as well.
But I was really, really good in lab. There was a history of students “dry labbing”, e.g. purchasing finished-product organic compounds. So the professor looked at my incongruity and decided to slip me a phony starting compound. I produced this gooey stuff, when other students were getting flakes. I alerted my TA, “I don’t know, this isn’t working.” I got an A in lab, because the only way to get gooey stuff was to do the laboratory procedures superbly. The professor and graduate assistant learned I wasn’t cheating. I was flunking lecture exams because I wasn’t studying enough, and I wasn’t cheating to cover up my study deficiencies. I was excelling in lab, because I had years of doing chemistry experiments at home, using chemicals that ordinary people can’t buy today, thanks to 9/11 “national security measures” that have the unintended consequence of dumbing down some really smart young experimentalists.
There was also a case of a Berkeley student who scaled 8 stories to break into the chem department office, in order to procure a test. This was in the 70’s long before free-climbing became popular. He was given an “F”, but he’s probably doing well now, somewhere. Some kinds of cheating that involve extraordinary skill and creativity, are worthy of admiration. Buying papers off the internet isn’t one of them.
heartlander, thanks for taking the time & trouble to search more deeply. You found one of the KS high schools which offers physics to freshmen. To find more, you’d probably need to access the course catalogs for various high schools around the state.
El Dorado wasn’t the school I had in mind, nor was Mr. Legleiter that teacher – although I have oodles of respect for him.
Your caricature of all math & science teachers as unqualified and of substandard intelligence was offensive to those professionals who are very highly qualified. You dug far enough to find the outstanding Mr. Legleiter; there are other science teachers in the state who are just as professional.
I apologize. I understand that some science-talented kids accept teaching pathways because the state provides good financial aid, and this may be the only way for these students to get a university education.
But the ed schools and k-12 institutions are still run by people who are subconsciously prejudiced against mathematics and science. They may think, for example that all classes should be the same length (of time), but these are really hard subjects that take more time to learn. What they really require is contemplation. You can’t rush this. TIMMS showed that American students’ perfomance dropped between 4th and 10th grade from among the best for industrialized nations, to among the worst. Perhaps as problematically, the American students self-rated their mathematics and science knowledge as very strong before they got “spanked” by their international counterparts.
Secondly, college financial aid for students who need and deserve it has been gutted. If Kathleen Sebelius wants to prove herself an historic governor, restoring need-based grant funding to past levels should be a top-priority mission for her administration, IMHO.
In other words, it shouldn’t be that students have to choose careers like teaching and nursing solely because they, but not other college-tracks, offer sufficient financial aid to make college-degree attainment feasible.
Here is a new ANTI-Turnitin article with tons of evidence. I had no idea how much Turnitin violates students’ rights.
http://www.essayfraud.org/turnitin_john_barrie.html