The antics of two guys in cockroach costumes during the Kansas State Fair debate of Gov. Kathleen Sebelius and GOP challenger Jim Barnett were meant to make a statement about the governor’s vetoes of abortion clinic regulation bills in 2003 and 2005 — meaning that thanks to Sebelius, abortion clinics remain safe havens for pests and vermin. But Operation Rescue members and others upset about the vetoes conveniently overlook the fact that Sebelius has said she would gladly sign a broader bill regulating all outpatient surgery clinics consistently. Such a bill passed the House this year but stalled in the Senate. By insisting on the narrower bill, anti-abortion legislators seemed more interested in creating a campaign issue against Sebelius than in cleaning up clinics.
Posted by Rhonda Holman
101 Comments
Operation Rescue, the ones who wore the cockroach costumes, are lying when they are in favor of cleaner clinics. They don’t want any clinics at all. Does anyone seriously think they’d give up their money making, err, anti-abortion campaign if all abortion clinics were spotless?
When other clinics start having their patients show up at hospitals only to die then the other clinics should also be inspected.
sothey, they already do. You should really learn your facts first. There are many things that go wrong even during the most mild of procedures… that doesn’t mean they did anything wrong either. From deadly allergic reactions to medication, to bleeding disorders, to aspirations and infections. No fault of the clinics. They just happen. The eagle staff is dead on correct in this matter. The agenda is pretty clear.
It is amazing that there could be any possible defense for the shoddy conditions at Kansas abortion mills. What, we have to wait for someone to actually die before something is done? Somebody already DID die, and all we saw were officials scrambling to cover the abortionist’s and each others’ backsides.
As for last year’s “broader” clinic measure, the bill’s regulations were amended to be discretionary, not mandatory, taking the enforcement teeth out of the bill. Legislators recognized this made the bill worthless. It was a joke.
POLITICAL CORRUPTION is why abortion mills are rat and roach infested, and abortionists are protected by the Gov. and her lapdogs at the KSBHA. In reality, this is all about money. Democratic, pro-abortion politicians want to keep their Sugar Daddy, late-term abortionist George Tiller operating in order to keep the campaign finances flowing. Tiller and his cohorts want to keep the politicians palms greesed in order to keep any kind of common sense legislation or investigations into their sleazy operations off their backs.
Unfortunately, it is women and thier babies who must pay the price for everyone’s greed and ambition. This story is a shame to the people of Kansas. No other state, including the most radically pro-abortion ones like California and New York, would tolerate such shenannigans from the abortion industry. In fact, if Tiller were operating in any other state, he would have already had his license revoked, and chop chops like the ones purchased by Operation Rescue recently, would have been closed long ago (witness the string of abortion mills recently closed by the states of FL, AL, OH, etc.).
Yeah that’s why the GRAND JURY came back with a no-fault verdict. You just can’t stand that Tiller’s clinic does everything by the letter.
Tiller knows he is providing a NEEDED service few are willing to do because of the harrassment. If he didn’t care about these women, why would he continue to do it?
Um, hello? He would do it to make MONEY. He’s a multi-millionaire!
By the way, I read that Tiller’s clinic misused RU-486 and it was negligence that caused that girls death. The grand jury members say that they couldn’t hand down an indictment because Tiller’s employees all pled the 5th ammendment. That doesn’t sound “by the letter” to me!
I suppose George Tiller got shot in the arms for cash, too. There was great incentive. And he went back to work because he thought that with all the crazy OR people, it could happen again and he’d make MORE.
He could make more money as an OB-GYN who just performed deliveries, given the demand.
Nice try, Lizzie.
Don’t let your hatred of the act make you make hyperbolic arguments from ignorance.
P-M – you are absolutely correct that any proceedure can lead to complications. There have been many stories nationwide about cosmetic surgery, notably stomach stapling, leading to serious complications and death. ALL clinics should be scrutinized. Especially the ‘for-profit discretionary’ ones.
Liz? Rosie?
I want to help.
You are new here. This particular debate is not. It has been done a hundred times over.
Ladies? (making an assumption based on screen names) Please say it along with me.
“Abortion is going to remain legal. There is absolutely nothing I can do to change that.”
“Other people are going to have sex. My dislike for sex or inablility to find a sexual partner is not going to keep anyone else from having sex.”
Repeat as many times as necessary until you realize you don’t get to tell other people how to live.
JR,
I want you to repeat after me:
“Homosexual marriage is going to remain illegal.”
If abortion will never change then why is it the democrats #1 litmus test for every judge nomination in the last 20 years?
Seems like the democrats are not quite as sure about it as you are pretending to be.
Abortion to you is about nothing more than a choice equivalent to wiping your butt with or with out two-ply toilet paper.
Abortion to others is about protecting an innocent life lost due to little more than it’s life being an inconvienence to the parents.
Nathan,
I must’ve missed something!
What does homosexual marriage have to do with this topic?
Oh THATS right! It is another example of folks like YOU telling other people how to live!
Nathan I was once very strongly anti-choice in the abortion matter.
Then I had kids.
That is what brought me to the knowledge that you simply CAN NOT force parenthood on anyone. To even think of doing so is stupid.
Now Nathan I am guessing here. But based on your history in other posts, I think you regard a child as righteous PUNISHMENT for “naughty!” sex. Do I have that about right?
You are far from alone.
Nathan I have some self education for you too.
Repeat with me: “A baby is not a form of divine punishment.”
“Punishing other people for having sex will not improve my love life.”
We all know that abortion is a controversial issue. Late term abortions are very rare and illegal in most states.
Nathan! I feel that aborition will never be made illegal in the USA, and it shouldn’t.
Most people who are anit-aborition are those with deep religious convictions. Which is fine. But the reason why people are so passionate about this issue, is because religion got involved.
Most people who are anti-aborition are not so much against the actual procedure as they are against the morality of the procedure.
When you mix morality into legislation, that is when things get bad controversially. Morality was the reason behind prohibition of alcohol, banning birth control, banning pronagraphy and now abortion.
We have many medical procedures that are not needed, but are being done all the time. Cosmetic surgey is a fine example. Breast enlargement, gastrotestical bypass and others.
People do things to their bodies, such as piercings and tattoos, which is ban in some states, not because of the procedure, but the morality of it.
Leave morality to god not to law.
JR,
I have said and still say that getting pregnant is a consequene of engaging in sex.
If you are able to make the choice to have sex then you should be prepared for the possibility that you can get pregnant.
The ultimate issue is that the unborn child is a human life worthy of protecting.
Everything you just said in making your case for abortion I could say about parents of infants, toddlers, or of a child at any age.
So, if I am not ready for parenthood, I guess killing my 1 year old is ok with you?
I only interjected the homosexual comment to show how absurd your comment was.
Joe,
The issue is about the unborn child being a human life worthy of protecting.
Nothing in the Bible tells me this. Nothing about religion makes this true.
The only part they play is that most people who do have morals and faith believe that killing an innocent child is wrong.
That is the issue.
Either you believe the unborn child to be a life worty of protecting or you don’t.
Simply trying to cloud the issue by labeling those who don’t support abortion as religious folks is just another form of an ad homenim attack instead of actually discussing the issue.
I expected more from you.
Nathan,
Let’s just see how well I know you….
YOU say:
“If you are able to make the choice to have sex then you should be prepared for the possibility that you can get pregnant.”
Nathan?
Does this mean that you would be ok with abortion in the case of rape? There is not much female choice involved in being raped.
Nathan,We know your views. Please tell us what protections will be provided to all the unwanted children or impaired childen who are born if abortion were to become illegal?What is your plan other than to outlaw abortion? Do you contribute to a fund that will help search for and provide care for children born to unwanting parents?Or, as is the modern Christian way, once the child is born the Christian do-gooders suddendly dissapear. The Christian do-gooders gather on Sunday’s to separate themselves from the poor, the addicted, the abused, the neglected. Put your money where your mouth is?If each so-called Christians had begun saving $10 a month, sending it to one holy-roller bank, then it may of been possible to start a foundation to care for newly born unwanted children.Instead, the so-called Christian nut patrol supports Randall Terry and the other cockroaches….and today the movement has nothing to show for it.I personally am against abortion unless it is for medical reasons, but, this is only my belief and as an American I have to accept that there should be a right to choose. I cannot get pregnant. I am sure the emotional pull is heartwrenching, but again, I am only guessing.I will leave those decisions up to the woman who is pregnant. It’s her body, mind, and soul.
Hey Rosie, Operation Rescue never bought a former abortion clinic, their name isn’t on the paper work. Operation Rescue claimed they had “30 days” to pay back the “loan” but Allison White (daughter of terrorist Jeff White) still owns the property.
Try to keep in mind Tiller bought the business on Central, White simply bought the empty building. Try actually knowing something about the subject before looking foolish again.
I often hear anti-choicers claim that abortion providers are doing their job for the money. Of course they are, so are all doctors. Do you think that dermatologists, dentists, brain surgeons, etc should all just spend all that time in medical school just to volunteer their services? What a stupid argument. This is apparently the best the anti-choice crowd has to offer.
anti-choice = anti-rational
Did you know that Planned Parenthood calls Dr. Tiller “a national treasure”? Why? Because it is hard to find competent physicians who would do what he does, despite the big money. Who, in their right mind, could do what he does and still be able to sleep at night?
So put him out of business the old-fashioned American way – COMPETITION. Open “Choices” or “Gerard House” type alternatives all over the place.
This whole filthy abortion clinic thing makes one thing clear.Kathleen is not running the State of Kansas, George Tiller is. He bought her pretty cheap too. 400k is what I heard. Make no mistake, Kathleen is a puppet on a string, and Tiller is the puppet master. If some of you wanted to liberate women you could start with our Governor. She is Tiller’s personal property!
Nathan said:
“The only part they play is that most people who do have morals and faith believe that killing an innocent child is wrong.”
followed by:
“Simply trying to cloud the issue by labeling those who don’t support abortion as religious folks is just another form of an ad homenim attack instead of actually discussing the issue.”
Nathan, you just contradicted yourself and proved JR right.
Do you honestly believe that moral people with faith (or “religious folks”) don’t have abortions?
Abortion cannot be stopped. Overturn Roe v. Wade, and abortions will still occur. There have always been and will always be those who choose to terminate their pregnancies, for whatever personal reasons, whether medical, economic, or other. It isn’t YOUR decision to make, whether it’s legal or not.
All this polemic debate over abortion is doing nothing. It’s doing nothing for serious political discourse, and it’s not going to change anything. I think most rational people will agree that abortion cannot be made illegal because of extreme circumstances– rape, incest, saving the mother’s life, etc. So Roe v Wade is not going to be overturned anytime soon. At the same time, no person– even the most ‘Godless’ democrat– likes abortion. What we can do, though, is work together to make sure abortions are safe AND rare. We should work together to provide more adoption options, to provide better education and access to birth-control and safe sex, and we should all educate our children about the dangers of unwanted pregnancies. If, as anti-choice activists claim, they are acting truly in the interests of the unborn, then they should focus their efforts on affecting real change, instead of instigating ridiculous dialogues such as the one going on here (and that’s not to say that the pro-choice dialgoue isn’t equally ridiculous) or initiating specifically anti-abortion legislation. get your legislators to pass broader bills that affect all surgery clinics rather than specifically targeting abortion clinics. no one is against safe and sterile medical procedures, and I think any pro-choice legislator would gladly pass a bill along those lines, so long as it did not specifically target women’s reproductive rights. there’s no reason people who have different views cannot reach a compromise, so lets stop bickering at one another and start working together to affect change!
First, I spent a lot of time at Central Women’s Clinic as a volunteer for several years. The charges of filth there are simply the usual christian lies.Out,”Who, in their right mind, could do what he does and still be able to sleep at night?”Actually, it’s who could put up with all the christian shit that’s been piled on him, up to all the vicious lies, and getting shot by them! The fact that that hasn’t stopped him has really got you guys freaked!
You anti’s out there; of course you’ll never get rid of abortion. It’s been with us at least since Roman times, and it persists even under the most draconian measures. You aren’t saving any babies with your screaming fits, you’re simply killing more women. If abortion is what you want to stop, maybe you’d want to consider serious help for pregnant women and children. That would at least lessen the need!
I wonder how many “upstanding moral families” would turn their daughter out if she got “in trouble”? That then sends her directly to Tiller. On the other hand, if she feels that she can confide in her family and get support there then she would be much likely to go to Tiller.
It’s ironic that they people who call Dr. Tiller a killer are the same people who support terrorists who bomb, poison and assassinate fellow Americans.
Ben,I’ve seen it happen! I’ve also seen kids who were sure it would, so they end up at clinics.
Yep – that way they can “hide” the pregnancy.
Wasn’t that case of the death at Tiller Clinic investigated twice?
Operation Rescue lost their tax-exempt status last week and what did they do about it?
They simply changed their group’s name and will continue on as usual.
Now who’s using the political system?
I agreee with Sebelius. Every clinic and hospital should be held to the same cleanliness standards.
This was ovbviously a political ploy by the Conservative Christians to make her look bad.
There are alot of deaths attributed to medical error and sanitary conditions in hospitals. But the Operation Rescue people don’t seem to care about the living – just the unborn.
Doug,They always seem to find or invent justification for their holy wars, and well… you know, it’s war!
Guy is right, each side has their talking points that will never change. Additionally, if we made sex information and birth control more readily available to those who choose to be sexually active, that would help too. A culture that promotes a product such as Viagra without also promoting birth control (as well as insurance reimbursement of birth control) clearly demonstrates which body parts we value most.
I too have spent years as a clinic defender. It’s amazing how far the anti-choicers will go to try to accost women who are entering the clinic and who clearly want nothing to do with them. I’ve talked with dozens of women who had an abortion and their personal reasons for doing so are more varied than what you’d ever realize. None made their decision frivolously, the truth was that it was the best choice for them. I don’t see how one can’t respect that.
Bottom line is: keep your laws off my body….my uterus, my choice!
Wichi,”A culture that promotes a product such as Viagra without also promoting birth control (as well as insurance reimbursement of birth control) clearly demonstrates which body parts we value most.”Yeah, and it also demonstrates WHO is making that choice for us all!
There is something called the “Abortion Distortion” that nationally famous attorney Jay Sekulow used to talk about all the time.In law, this “distortion” is evidenced, in part, by the number of times privacy notices, consent forms, parental permission, etc HAD to be filled out by parents for even the most routine information or procedure.Except for abortion, of course!There is also an “abortion distortion” when it comes to how the left views medical doctors.Look at malpractice and tort reform for instance:The average liberal wants abortionists to be protected from lawsuits, but the average liberal will support no limits on damages, at all, against a doctor who does not perform abortions.Sebelius says she would support a law that treated all clinics the same. Where, in the law, is abortion ever treated like any other procedure?I can’t have a doctor take out my kidney for just any reason or no reason at all. I don’t need two kidneys, but I doubt any surgeon in the US would take out one of them just to lower my weight or any other reason that was non medical.It is “my body” is it not?Again, abortion has been seperated from all other medical procedures by the left, not by the right.It should be noted that those who say that abortion requires extreme protection due to “privacy rights” have a hard time admitting the fact that women who are injured by abortions are reluctant to sue, for the same “privacy” issues.Abortionists tend to be bottom feeders in the medical field.The number of abortionists who get into legal trouble for malpractice, drugs and other problems is very high.However, the left puts abortionists on a pedestal.How can this blind eye of the “abortion rights” lobby be considered “pro woman?”There have been several comments, on other threads in the WE Blog, using phrases like “greedy doctors” and “millionaire doctors.” Usually these comments come up when liberals are pushing socialized medicine.Guess what?Tiller doesnt work for free, and he can well afford to spend some of his fortunes on cleaning up his clinic and procedures, as can all of the others in his field.Those of you who poke so much fun at the prolifers need to realize a very important point:A large percentage of the leaders in the prolife movement are women who have had a bad experience themselves and are trying to help other women make a real, informed choice.I have never met a prolife activist who had anything but charity and sincere sympathy for those women who feel forced into abortion decisions.
“nationally famous attorney Jay Sekulow”
Dennis Rader is nationally famous too.
“”Jay has clearly succeeded in becoming closely linked to the Bush administration and has become a principal salesman for Bush nominees,” says Elliot Mincberg, legal director of People For the American Way.
This is the public Jay Sekulow, the man who has become a familiar face on television in recent months and who has been a fixture in Washington legal circles as head of the ACLJ, an organization founded by religious broadcaster Pat Robertson in 1990.
But there is another side to Jay Sekulow, one that, until now, has been obscured from the public. It is the Jay Sekulow who, through the ACLJ and a string of interconnected nonprofit and for-profit entities, has built a financial empire that generates millions of dollars a year and supports a lavish lifestyle — complete with multiple homes, chauffeur-driven cars, and a private jet that he once used to ferry Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia.
That less-known side of Sekulow was revealed in several interviews with former associates of his and in hundreds of pages of court and tax documents reviewed by Legal Times. Critics say Sekulow’s lifestyle is at odds with his role as the head of a charitable organization that solicits small donations for legal work in God’s name.
For example, in 2001 one of Sekulow’s nonprofit organizations paid a total of $2,374,833 to purchase two homes used primarily by Sekulow and his wife. The same nonprofit also subsidized a third home he uses in North Carolina.”
http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomframe.jsp?query=Jay+Sekulow&page=1&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3Dca6a87b5686fb0a9%26clickedItemRank%3D3%26userQuery%3DJay%2BSekulow%26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.law.com%252Fjsp%252Farticle.jsp%253Fid%253D1130499506270%26invocationType%3D-%26fromPage%3DMyNS%26amp%3BampTest%3D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.law.com%2Fjsp%2Farticle.jsp%253Fid%253D1130499506270
Paul, if you can find a DR willing to take out your kidney I will not do anything to interfere.
“The average liberal wants abortionists to be protected from lawsuits,”
They should be just as liable for malpractice as any other DR. I don’t know anyone who thinks they shouldn’t be. Therefore I don’t know any liberals.
Gee, we concluded that with Joe Williams the othr day – that I am not a liberal and I don’t know any liberals.
What are you talking about Ben?
You’re not a liberal and you don’t know any liberals?
Say what? Point that out in any of my post buddy!
Same old “blah, blah,” from the pro-aborts here. All whinning and no facts.
Doug — my dear, keep trying to get a fact right. Maybe some day you will! OR bought the Central building through a third party, which has given them possession of it. Their private real estate and financial arrangements are none of your business, which is obvious from your faulty information and faultier assumptions. The building was quite occupied and open for business when it went under contract. Maybe you should realize that there are some out there that know the truth and won’t fall for your misinformation (I am being polite)before you post things that make you look so foolish.
I told you on another thread that you lack credibility with your hysterial tone, and you still do.
As for those who are delusional enough to think that the Central mill, with its mold and roach infestations and other filth, was clean, well…I’d just hate to see your houses.
Joe! I am not going to try to ferret it out but you posted that Liberals do not like minorities and don’t like being around tham. Since that does not describe me nor those I know I had to conclude that I don’t fit your definition of “liberal”
I looked it up …
Actually leftist Democrats are extremely racist. They don’t associate or like to be around minorities.Posted by: Joe Williams | September 15, 2006 at 09:01 AMJoe – “Actually leftist Democrats are extremely racist. They don’t associate or like to be around minorities.”Then I guess I must not be a leftist Democrat. Nor do I know any leftist Democrats.Posted by: Ben Huie | September 15, 2006 at 09:12 AM
Good Rosey.Don’t want you at my house anyway.Unless you feel like doing some dishes or laundry!! HA
Paul:I have been in Dr. Tiller’s clinic numerous times and it has always been clean. And I DO know the difference Rosemarie. In addition, one must attend several hours of information including OTHER options, films, before a procedure is allowed. The staff will answer questions at any time. I’ve even witnessed a time where the woman was crying and Dr. Tiller said he would not do the procedure. I disagree with you Paul that comparing this situation with having a kidney removed is the same.At any rate, none of us will change another’s mind about how they feel about this issue. I say judge not…There’s only one entity that will decide our fate, and it’s none of us!
I have never seen the place so I don’t know. However, I think that ALL medical clinins should be required to pass inspection. There are a couple of DRs I know of whose offices are dubious.
Again Ben! I never mention to you in person, and also I have said over and over and over again. I consider Liberals to be different from Leftist.
If you’re a leftist, then my statement rings true. If you’re just a liberal, then it doesn’t apply to you.
So the question is; Are you a Leftist Democrat?
But that is beside the point. You said “we concluded that with Joe Williams the othr day – that I am not a liberal and I don’t know any liberals.”
Since you failed to prove that. (You always fail to prove anything against me). You’re nothing but a fat liar.
I’m starting to really wonder if what ever you say can be trusted. I’ve busted you on several lies before.
If you want to keep riding my ass all the time, go ahead, I’ll just hit back. I stand up to bullies!
What a joke you are Joe! Only this time you left out Butt licker!
I suppose I might have been imprecise in that you used the term “leftist Democrats” while Paul used “liberal” So, based on those I am neither “leftist Democrat” nor “liberal”; nor do I know any.
“I stand up to bullies!” OH! I’m just shaking in my boots!
Well Rosie,That should suit both of us fine- I wouldn’t invite you anyway!
I don’t know where the whackos get their information, but I know darn sure I’d be the first one screaming foul if Tiller wasn’t held to the SAME standards as any other facility. Malpractice and all. But luckily most people are smart enough to know the difference between someone making up a bunch of hooey and the truth.
In my town many years ago, there was a child who died in the dentist’s chair, an allergic reaction to something…and the town rallied around the dentist- there was no lawsuit- just a whole bunch of sadness over a misfortunate reaction. Imagine how different it would be if she had been an abortion provider. It happens every day…in all clinics of every sort. How many of you have to take antibiotics before you get your teeth cleaned? Do you know why you have to do that? Because some people are more apt to get sepsis from a heart condition and die from a tooth cleaning….if you can die from something like that, imagine all the things that go wrong during a pregnancy and a delivery or abortion.
Ya’ll act like carrying a child is no big whoop. It’s a breeze, and everyone just tosses it away so lightly. That’s not true. From the teen who might be beaten by her parents for coming home pregnant, to women who have too many kids to feed…add another stressor on top of it and you have a mental health mess on your hands. Sometimes they try to keep the kid and end up like Andrea Yates. Postpartum depression is serious stuff, add that on top of a mom who didn’t want the child in the first place, overloaded with bills and all alone..add on a health problem where she can’t work…It is never one thing why someone chooses abortion, it’s usually many factors. None of which are dismissed so lightly.
You can’t make that decision for her. She has to make it for herself. And if you’ve never been in those shoes you should just thank your lucky stars and SHUT UP.
Paul,”The average liberal wants abortionists to be protected from lawsuits, but the average liberal will support no limits on damages, at all, against a doctor who does not perform abortions.”I’ve never said that any doctor should be protected from legitimate lawsuits, but the local anti’s seem to have taken a trick from Fred Phelps, and file numerous frivolous suits to harass Tiller and others. Those should not only be thrown out of court, but severe fines levied against the plaintiffs!
Again, it is sad that both Main and New York have stricter laws than Kansas:http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/09/18/D8K7CIT80.html
Just the mere fact that Jay Sekulow is chummy with Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell is enough for me not to trust one word the man says.
Anything new here?
Well Nathan never answered my question.
What else we got.
Rosemarie is still unhappy. Dear? Keeping other people from having sex or punishing them for it is not gonna fill your nights.
Uh Rosie? Where did you stand Welfare “reform”?
Paul has weighed in as light as usual. I think I remember Paul posting something as to his getting arrested over abortion. THAT might be interesting reading!
Sighhhhhhh
And Joe WIlliams continues to amuse us.
Troy Newman dressed up as a cockroach. That’s (unintentionally I’m sure) appropriate.
I would like to state for the record that if you are both pro-war and anti-abortion, you are a hypocrite. Life beginning at conception or birth, putting a hole in someone with a 5.56mm lead projectile, or blowing them up with a cluster bomb, laser guided bomb, cruise missile, Vulcan cannon, either in the name of or not in the name of some deity, is AT LEAST as wrong if not more wrong. I don’t remember there being a list of exceptions to the Ten Commandments the Republicans keep touting, and last I knew “Thou Shalt Not Kill” was still on there.
Postal,
The practical meaning of “Thou shall not kill” is “Thou shall not murder”.
It makes sense when you think about it. The Old Testament is full of military battles sanctioned by Jehovah, so it is not possible the commandment is a prohibition against military killing, since the nature of Jehovah would not permit a commandment against acts He sanctioned.
And King David is judged guilty as a result of his act in ordering the death of Uriah, who he killed so that he could cover up his affair with Uriah’s wife, Bathsheba.
Jewish law is based on the Old Testament. Christian doctrine, however, is refined by the New Testament, and the teachings of Christ. Christ was not a big war-monger like ‘Old Testament Jehovah.’
However, while we’re on the subject of what Old Testament Bible says about fetuses:
Exodus 21:22-25And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no furhter injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
Ergo, if you hurt the fetus it’s a property (civil) matter, but if you hurt the woman it’s a criminal matter. And you can’t argue with that logic, since if it’s in the Bible it’s irrefutable fact. Right???
(Props to the MPs for the use of their research.)
And, one other thing:
War is murder. If you don’t think so, ask the guys getting killed.
The ‘No Athiests In Foxholes’ doctrine may apply, but most of them are concerned for their mortal souls at that point, as well as their physical bodies, and probably damned few are all too positive that God himelf has ’sanctioned’ the war.
I thought the general consensus of the fetus is that, so long is it attached to the mother, it is considered her body.
Once a baby is born alive, then the baby has rights.
But with the Lacy Petterson law that allows some states to charge people for a double homicide if a pregnant woman is murdered kind of throws it in a loop.
Postal, I’m not sure what your point is. Are you saying that because in the Old Testament when an accident occurs and an unborn child is killed, it is a civil matter, that it how it should be today?
I don’t know about that since we as Christians are not under the Old Testament law. But looking at it logically, it is hardly an apples and apples comparison, since the verse you quoted does not describe an intentional act, and it is not the woman killing her unborn child.
Outlander,
You guys are going to have to make up your mind whether you follow the OT Jehovah or Jesus Christ.
We’ve already established in the past that the OT is full of a lot of stuff many of you pick and choose to use to your advantage, as you just have. Genocide? The OT allowed it. And here I thought you guys were Christians i.e. followers of Christ. Gee, my bad.
Joe, I’ve always said that when you can claim a fetus on income tax, it’s a child.
Accidental? The passage seems to indicate malice. And, I think, the emphasis seems to be on the fact that the Bible doesn’t put weight on the unborn the way that people assume it does. However, assuming the death is a deprivation (of a wanted child,) seeing as how in an intentional act there is no deprivation (and there is no desperate and impassioned invocation of the concept of a soul in this verse) then what should the penalty be??
You can twist it your way, and I can twist it mine. The trouble is, you (and/or your ilk) are trying to dictate the behavior of others, while I am not. I am not 100% sure that I have God’s complete backing in the matter, and I’m not going to go writing checks based on that as an asset. In the Bible, though, there are many references to judgment; two stand out: God is the only judge, and Joshua Judges Ruth. Hehehee, sorry, the second one is clever. Jesus had no patience for loud street preachers. He would go right now and kick 90+ percent of the Televangelists to the curb. I think Rev. Graham might be spared.
My point? Glad you asked.
– The Bible is equivocal, as we have determined, on the whole “Thou Shalt Not Kill” thing. Per your rebuttal.
– The Bible is sketchy as to the morally legal status of the fetus as a ‘person’ in the eyes of God.
– You have far more respect for the unborn than you do for the postborn. Your ability to justify wartime slaughter yet not justify a single death for any purpose shows this.
JR,
For me to answer your question we first have to get past the discussion on whenlife begins.
To you the unborn child is not a life worthy of protecting so no matter what type of scenario you can come up with to justify abortion it doesn’t matter because you don’t need any justification when it is not a life worthy of portecting.
So, to answer your question, I think all abortions are wrong except when it comes to the life of the mother.
When you ask me about rape, I will pose it to you like this:
Do you think that a woman being raped makes killing another innocent life ok?
Anyhow, less than 5% of abortions are due to rape.
I’ll go halfway with you, stop all abortions except in the case of rape or the life of the mother. Deal?
RD,
How can I prove JR right when my comments were in response to Joe?
My comments were not in contradiction either.
Nothing in my comments would suggest that I said or believe that people of faith or whom have morals don’t have abortions.
Yet you imply that is what I said anyhow.
The issue is not about whether or not making abortions illegal will stop them completely.
I don’t think it will.
Murder is illegal and it still happens.
Speeding is illegal and it still happens.
Following your line of logic should we forgo making anything illegal based upon whether or not it will completely stop something?
What is the difference in a woman “choosing” to kill her unborn child and a woman “choosing” to kill her 5 year old child?
JR,
Don’t accept Nathan’s deal. When did he become the one who decides?
I think a better deal would be, I’ll worry about my soul, you worry about yours.
Nathan,
Ask the IRS what the difference is.
RD,
Typical RD…
Try to engage in a discussion and she turns into one sentence retorts with no substance…
When does life begin RD?
Nathan?
All that has been said here and you came back to me? I’m flattered.
No Nathan no deal
If we restrict abortions to those who have been raped we invite a FLOOD of unjust charges of rape.
I’m surprised at you Nathan. As a capitalist, I am sure you are familiar with the laws of supply and demand.
If you attempt to restrict the supply of something, you manipulate the demand. You force it to find its own way to supply.
A LOTTA guys are gonna do time so a woman does not have to bare a child she does not want.
Nathan?
You are willing also to grant abortion for the life of the mother?
GOOD! There is no natural alteration and demand on the human body male or female that compares with pregnancy. Clearly pregnancy is a life altering event. In poor women, it could be a life threatening event not physically but financially.
You are working the wrong direction Nathan. Make economic conditions healthy for a mother and her child and she may not choose abortion. You cannot make law to force her to choose parenthood. She will find unsafe medical ways around that.
Nathan,
That unborn child you keep talking about cannot live outside the mother during the time abortions are performed, at least not without an enormous amount of technical and medical help. Basically, it lives as a parasite. If the mother becomes ill, many times so does the fetus. If the mother drinks to extreme or uses drugs, those are passed to the fetus. They are one.
I believe a woman has the right to choose a medical procedure on her body. I may not agree in all instances that it is good or right. I believe it is between that woman, her doctor, and her “God.” Would I have an abortion? More than likely not, but as I was never in a position to have to carry and give birth to a severely deformed baby, I can’t be 100% certain exactly what I would do. Nor have I been raped. Would I encourage someone to have an abortion for “birth control?” Absolutely not.
I’m adopted, Nathan. I suppose because of that it would seem that I would oppose abortion, knowing that I was not terminated as a fetus and was given the opportunity to be carried to full term, be born and live a full life.
Yet I believe that the decision should be left to the woman, not to a panel of 9 men, Congress or any lawmakers.
You will never have to make the kind of a decision women have to make. I hope you are never a part of something that would require that kind of decision. Not because I think you would make the wrong one. I know you would make the one that is best for you. But what is best for you is not necessarily the best for all.
Nathan?
I’ve LIVED both sides of this debate. I was at the summer of mercy on the pro life side. Tiller’s clinic was then and still is less than a mile from my home.
I paid for an abortion once. A friend of mine was in an abusive relationship. Yeah it was her bad. But the baby would have given the guy a permanent “hook” into her life. I did not tell her to do it. She BEGGED me to help her.
See Nathan? That is the difference. No one is advocating for women to have abortions. But folks like you are advocating to take that choice away from them. And you are wasting a lot of money and time doing it.
I say your efforts and zeal could be better used.
Make every life welcome and supported in this world. DO make it a “village” that welcomes a child.
Anybody know how much Tiller paid Sebelius’ thugs for beating up on the cockroaches?
Nathan,
I hope the above makes up for the “one sentence retort.” And I didn’t expect you to see the contradiction I perceived in your previous statement. :)
JR pointed out something important. Your focus is clearly on the “unborn child” and doesn’t even come close to the mother. That’s sad.
Would you be in favor of forced birth? Forced pregnancy? Forced sterilization? Castration? I can feel your emotional temperature rising, and you’re ready to cry foul on those. And I’ll admit that they’re pretty much sci-fi. I do hope you say no to all. But what you need to understand is that making abortion illegal is the same as forcing a woman to give birth. For some women, that would be a death sentence, both literally and figuratively. A child is a life long experience. Ask your dad. It’s an overwhelming responsibility that you can’t really conceive completely until it happens.
Education of both young women and young men is the only key to combatting the number of abortions that occur now. I would encourage both sexual and spiritual education. If you believe abortion is wrong, don’t have one.
As to your question of when life begins, doesn’t the Bible mention that Adam came to life when God breathed life into him? I guess the answer to your question depends on each individual.
Roscoe, no, I don’t. Frankly, if I saw a cockroach, I’d step on it.
I wonder what Kathleen S. would do if no abortions were performed in Kansas some day.
Ksfarmgrrl wept.
“Suzie”?
“Roscoe”?
If you are more than hit and run posters, I’ll be happy to embarrass you.
Oh and Sue?
I’m gonna ask you not to invoke the name of a friend of mine who is not here to defend herself.
Frankly, Susan, I think we’d all be happy if no abortions were performed, meaning that the need for abortions would be gone.
As for your last comment, you are rude.
Hey Postal,I don’t know that there are NO atheists in foxholes, but you must consider that they have at least one less thing to fight about.
Roscoe,”Anybody know how much Tiller paid Sebelius’ thugs for beating up on the cockroaches?”Hey, if I’d been there, I’d of stomped those roaches for free! I applaud anyone who stomps cockroaches.
I use to be pro-choice until I saw several of my friends go through abortions and I saw the agony they suffered AFTER the abortions. Sometimes it took hours, sometimes days, sometimes years, but at some time in their lives they have regretted having that/those abortions. A couple of them weren’t able to get pregnant again and longed for that baby they got rid of. The psychological effects of abortion aren’t discussed very often. This affects non-Christians and Christians alike. I have since become a Christian, but my pro-life beliefs started long before that decision. Abortion is just plain MURDER and is not helping women at all! None of my friends ever received counseling as to how this decision could affect them.
I’m embarrassed Wichita is known as the abortion capitol of the world.
Maggiemay,Yeah, and you’re in there guilt tripping ‘em to make sure they suffer!I will never forget the day as a volunteer clinic escort, that a young woman tearfully told me about her doctor telling her that her intentional and much wanted pregnancy would have to be terminated for medical reasons. After it had been done, and she was being helped to her car, one of the fundies came running up to her and shouted “Tell your dead baby ‘Happy Birthday!’”
The emotional turmoil of relinquishing a child for adoption isn’t a Sunday walk in the park, either. Then again, neither is motherhood for everyone.
The thing I notice, the fundies still sit here and spout how abortion is murder, but we give them direct and true incidences of why women have abortions and they remain silent about that. Gee, go figure.
Nathan – I’ll counter your offer above with one of my own. I’ll continue to support Catholic Charities in their work which reduces demand for abortion. You make your contribution either to Catholic Charities or to another group. I’m sure rosemarie or Mary will happily give you and address to send your check for Choices to.
PM,This may help you understand why they go silent. Last year on one of the more radical local websites, the claim was made that abortion to save the life of the mother was a fraud, because any real mother would gladly die for her child. The catholics have backed that up by making a saint of a woman who died after refusing chemo for her cancer since it might have caused her to miscarry. Her choice, catholics, but is that really the model you want your wives and daughters emulating?
Rosemarie, ignorant one, the sale of the building is public record. You can look it up yourself at the Register of Deeds office. Troy Newman or Operation Rescue’s name doesn’t appear on the paperwork. That would make them owners or buyers of the building just like me.
The business had already been purchased by Dr. Tiller and hadn’t been open for over a month before Allison White purchased the building.
Sorry Rosie, you are a complete ignorant twit when it comes to the subject. Even Fox News says your are full of crap:http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,214249,00.html
Jed, I would never go up to anyone who has had an abortion and say that. I’m not one of the protesters at the clinic because of that reason. I don’t think these women need to be yelled at. While I’m against abortion, I don’t understand why these women aren’t counseled first and then given their choice. When a woman gives up her child for adoption, she is counseled to make sure this is something she can handle and really wants to do. After the birth of the baby and giving the baby to the adoptive parents, the birth mother still has time to think about it and can have her baby back within a certain given time. Of course, this can’t happen after an abortion since the baby is dead, yet there is no pre-counseling given to these women. Why, because the clinics know most women wouldn’t go through with it and they wouldn’t make any money.
maggiemay – a perspective to your question “I don’t understand why these women aren’t counseled first and then given their choice.”
I think if we had some sort of oevrall comprehensive health care in many cases perhaps that WOULD happen. Where does the woman confirm her pregnancy? In a comforting and affirming environment? Or at a clinic?
Maggie, counseling is given if the patients want it. The doctors are also required by law to provide information packets about abortion that are published by the state at the doctor’s expense.
Problem is Doug, that counseling might be only half-hearted. That is the reason for my concern as to where the situation begins – a family doctor or a clinic doctor.
Years back when I had heart surgery the real counseling and information I received was from my family doctor. The cardiologist and surgeon did some of that but the REAL connection was with by Doc. That is what it should be here.
You are not a person until you are in my phone book.
Maggie,To my knowledge, any woman that requests it will get counselling. I’ve held a few hands during such counselling, and it’s anything but half-hearted. I’ve seen the doctor refuse to do an abortion when he feels the woman may have been coerced or is unsure of what she wants. That’s pretty much standard, although I’m sure your minister told you otherwise. Most women have looked at their options and made their decisions long before they enter a clinic. Those who aren’t sure are told to come back when they are. They are then given the number of a neutral minister or psychologist if they need to talk it through.I’ve seen the propaganda that your churches distribute, and none of it corresponds at all to my personal experience at various clinics. I’ve gotten to know several doctors there, and found them to be very caring people doing a job made extremely risky by christians.
Oh Jed you’re just EEEE-Ville, caring for those sluts and tramps.And you call yourself christian?
What you need to do is get a radio show and bloviate over this weekly.
Tracy,I beg you pardon, but I do not, nor have I ever called myself christian! Why do you insult me in this manner?As for a weekly radio show, I had one once, and they’re a royal pain. No thanks!
Do you really think that a clinic, trying to make money, would turn someone away and tell them not to have an abortion? Or truly “counsel” them about their other options without bias? Abortion clinics are clearly in it for the money. No one can dispute that. If they were really there to help women, why wouldn’t they offer their services for free and raise money to cover the costs? And if abortion is supposed to be “RARE”, why are there over 1.6 million of them every year in the US? 3,000 daily?
Lizzie,I know for a fact they do. I’ve seen them do it when the circumstances warranted. Whatever you may think of them, they are doctors, and quite scrupulous with medical ethics. If money were such an issue, there are many other specialties that pay considerably better. Currently, pain specialists are in high demand, and get paid incredible salaries and get heretofore unheard-of benefits.Abortion doctors, considering the risks you people impose on them versus the returns, have to believe in a woman’s right to reproductive freedom in order to stay in that field, and reproductive freedom means it’s the patient’s choice, not the doctors, and not yours.
Lizzie,Actually, they do raise money to help low-income women through Planned Parenthood and various churches.
Planned Parenthood may do that, but they also get major government $$$. What about Tiller, the multi-millionaire? He makes money per abortion, and the farther along someone is, the more money he gets.
By the way, if they are “scrupulous with medical ethics”, why did all of Tiller’s employees have to plead the 5th at the grand jury investigation? And why did I just hear a story out of colorado where a 15-year-old girl changed her mind and decided not to have the abortion, and the abortion doctor LOCKED HER IN A ROOM for hours and nearly forced her to go through with it? I’ve never heard of a pain management specialist doing anything like that. Furthermore, have you ever heard of a pain management specialist taking a baby delivered alive in his waiting room and throwing it on his clinic’s roof so the police wouldn’t find it? That happened in Hialeah, Florida, just a few weeks ago. You can’t convince me that any other high-paying field of medicine is comparable to the coercement in the abortion industry.
Lizzie, jed – this is why I would like to see better alternatives for the initial testing. Perhaps the Health Department? Someplace “neutral” so that there cannot even be the appearence of a conflict of interest.
Lizzie,First off, Tiller does lower his rates drastically for low income patients referred by Planned Parenthood and others.Your story of the girl forced to have an abortion is just that. Propaganda. I did my damnedest to verify it, and could find nothing from any source but virulent anti’s!I couldn’t find anything on the Florida case you mentioned, but the exact same story showed up about 4 years ago, attributed to a clinic in Connecticut, and again to one in Atlanta. Must be making it’s way south. Recycling at it’s worst!You religious folk work hard to spread any nasty rumor or outright lie to support your cause. I might note that the very word “propaganda” was invented by a religious order to describe it’s own work.Another case in point would be the monstrosity called “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion” that was written (actually plagiarized from an obscure French play, written about 30 years before the date given for the Protocols) by Orthodox church officials, presumably at the request of Czar Nicolas II, and spread by churches of many denominations worldwide, resulting in a wave of antisemitism culminating in the Holocaust. There are so many examples of such behavior, both before and after the publication of the “Protocols” that the credibility of all religious institutions must be called into question.