Heads of state, like diplomats, rarely say quite what they mean, so I suppose it’s refreshing when one of them does.
Hugo Chavez, for example. Addressing the United Nations Wednesday, the president of Venezuela referred to President Bush as “the devil.”
“The devil came here yesterday,” Chavez said of Bush’s earlier U.N. appearance. “He came here talking as if he were the owner of the world.”
Lest his point be missed, Chavez went on to complain that Bush had left an odor of sulfur at the lectern.
I’m going to guess Hugo won’t be dining at the White House.
Posted by Dave Knadler
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80 Comments
What a speech. Rove couldnt have set it up better. If anyone actually watched and listened it was a fantastic boost to Bush. It made our Texas mispoken bumbler seem like Churchill.
But Chavez does get kudos for being able to get in a Fart joke at the front of the UN and the rest of the world. He should be ‘da homey’ at the local taqueria at home. Or certain parts of Wichita.
Having both a Communist dunce and a pathological Muslim fanatic on was brilliant. I wondered why they gave them Visa’s. Now we know.
The New York Times, Walter Duranty and others of the Left should be proud their heroes outdid themselves with these two. If only Chomsky could have been there in person rather than in the book that Chavez had in his hand.
An absolutely brilliant display.
Hugo Chavez is a Communist Thug, which makes him a hero to the hypocrits on the left:
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/04/12/venezu8423.htm
Chavez tortures political prisoners.
As Limbaugh said today, Chavez should be subject to McCain Feingold, he is quite a mouth piece for the Democrats!
And YOU Mr Rosell are a shill for the bush admininstration.
The speech of Chavez should teach us. Not because of what he said but because it was applauded by the UN forum.
Bush has made us the most hated nation on the planet. This is why Chavez is applauded while bush gets a lukewarm welcome.
JRWhen, in the history of the UN, has the United Nations ever been a reliable friend?You, JR, show your anti American bent time and time again on these posts.However, if you do support the UN, why cant you support the modern state of Israel, formed by the United Nations?Why can’t you support the enforcement of 17 United Nations Resolutions against Saddam Hussein?Why cant you support the removal of Hezbollah from Southern Lebannon, or the right of Israel to enforce that Resolution due to the failure of the Lebanese Government to do so?—-When the UN does things you dont like you ignore them. That is how it works for you.To me, the United Nations looks like the bar sceen in the first Star Wars movie.The UN is dominated by dictatorships, both Communist and Moslem.The UN is a joke, most of the time.Without US military power to back up the UN in Korea and Bosnia and in Iraq, there would be no respect for the UN at all.
JRSince you brought armchair quack psychology into this forum, let me analyze you:
JR’s mother didnt love him enough, so he looks for love in all the wrong places, like from international thugs and dictators and terrorists!
Hey, I will agree that I am no expert on psychology (or spelling) but neither are any of you, lol.
sceneI know I suck at spelling, get a life you spell checkers, lol.
“As Limbaugh said today, Chavez should be subject to McCain Feingold, he is quite a mouth piece for the Democrats!”
OH GEEZ I FORGOT!!
CHAVEZ is running for an American Senate seat!!!
Hugo was hillarious! I was wondering, if maybe CF or CapnGalahad had penned the speech for him.
V.L.R.B!!
Paul,Why don’t you make an honest man out of yourself, and stop calling yourself Republican. This hatred for the UN is better fitted for an Imperialist.The UN has been, and still is, largely an extensíon of the US State Department. It allows the US an avenue to be involved in practically every single affairs in the world. It allows the US an ability to guide the world, without being branded Imperialistic. You may only choose to see the bickerings within the Security Council, while ignoring the numerous dealings in other organs designed to bring some sense of order in the jungle among nation-states.True, the UN needs to evolve to tackle the new problems. However, they come mainly from the fact that today there’s a weakening of the nation-states and the rise of trans-national entities, a globalisation of ideas. And by not supporting the UN, to the point of orphaning the body, the US is rightly seen as arrogant by the world, who has been raised to expect leadership from the US, which is now only keen to heap scorn upon the world body she gave birth to in the first place.Anyway, I believe in the relevancy of the UN, considering the alternatives, a pre-WWI jumble of confusing treaties ruling the relationship between governments.You said about the UN resolutions against Saddam Hussein. Why didn’t you mention the other resolutions demanding Israel to withdraw from the occupation zone? How about that, Imperialist Paul?
We will sit around and say Bush is the worst President ever because he can’t pronounce a word at the UN…
but this wack job calls our President the Devil and you take his side?
Damn, talk about shilling. Paul, in all his wisdom, has deemed JR a nut case and anti-american for stating his beliefs.
Paul, with those conclusions, you have locked yourself into a very small room outfitted with padded walls, and destined to forever listen to the likes of rush coulter, et al, until your somewhat pea-sized brain explodes. Spend your shill-received pieces of silver wisely. God, what an idiot.
Sounds eerily similar to another speaker calling an elected head of state part of an axis of evil.
Such speech is totally counter-productive and stupid.
Personaly, I’d call Bush the Anti-Christ. But, that means Apocalypse has begun, and I miss the Rapture. Dang!
I could care less. Hugo Chavez isn’t important. The left can lift him up on their shoulders and kiss his ass as far as I care.
That’s on them.
Good point Roo Haa; I thinght the same thing myself when I saw Chavez cross himself. I have been reading a fair amount of the evangelical Apocolypse writings (notably the sermons by Hagee (sp?) of CUFI) and they speak a lot about the anti-Christ. They usually claim it is someone like Amanejaid (sp?) of Iran; however I seem to recall that the anti-Christ is supposed to come in the guise of a great Christian.
Yeah! You’re right! The Anti-christ is Bush.
*Shakes Head*
Nah, it’s Karl Rove! He’s the mockery of Christmas birth (25 Dec. 1950)
And, when it comes to the UN, both Bush and Ahmadinejad seem to be kindred spirits of some sort. Both despise the world body.
Glad you think so Joe – I don’t. If you would read you would note that I refer to “they” claim things about the anti-Christ.
..and the world body despises them.
Go Hugo!!!
Bush will destroy this county and probably the world at this rate. If he doesn’t handle Iran with kid gloves, we could end up starting WWIII. Perfect example, Bush’s lack of intelligent already rubbed off on the Pope, and look what he did. Started another Holy War against the West and all Christians!
Oh, and I loved Hugo’s sign of the cross he did while on the podium at the UN… That was classic…
Regarding Chavez:
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/454232p-382122c.html
Yup. He’s funneling Venezuelan oil to “poor New Yorkers”. Is this relevant to the discussion? I dunno. Some posters seem to be making a point of calling Chavez irrelevant or crazy. If so, he’s crazy like a fox…
Agreed Alden…
What better way to prove hes a good guy than by bribery…
Admit it, bribery works, all one has to do is look at our own government!
If memory serves me, the anti-Christ is supposedly loved by all. Something like a charasmatic leader? Sorry, that let’s Bush out of the running. He’s about as charasmatic as a prune.
Did it ever occur to anyone that as soon as a finger is pointed to someone as being an anti-Christ contender, they just lost?
I’m still giggling over Chavez’s remarks. Shall we now invade Venezuela?
The speech by Mr Chavez at the UN was unfortunate and unhelpful. The same could be said about President Bush citing the “axis of Evil” in his State of the Nation address. Little is gained and much is lost by ‘name calling’. Reminds us of school yard tactics, not international diplomacy with so much at stake.Some comments suggest that a few readers find it difficult to reflect on our own faults before blaming others for their sins.
Wasn’t it refreshing to hear what an ELECTED President sounds like?
Viva el presidente Chavez! Si, su puede! Si, se puede!
Paul says Chavez tortures prisoners like he has a problem with that. This is the same Paul who advocates torture. Paul a hypocrite? Golly, who would have seen that coming.
Sorry, that should’ve been “charismatic.” Too little caffeine.
What was most disturbing to me was the reaction of the crowd. Some sat in obvious agreement nodding their heads and then most everyone applauded.
What does this say about our moral leadership in the world?
Chavez has no right to resort to name calling but our own George W. Bush has been name calling for several years now.
This war on terror will never be won by playground bully tactics.
Our country is too dependent on foreign oil and we are quickly becoming a debtor nation to have any power.
We need leadership that will get the US back to being a super power with a moral principles (in actions and not just words).
We need to get off the foreign oil and stop meddling in other parts of the world unless they ask us to help them.
I pray that 2006 election will help us to change the courses of this country and then maybe in 2008 we will get some common sense back.
If not, then we are doomed to repeat the mistakes we have made in the last 6 years.
Surely it couldn’t be long before JR takes CapnAmerica and some others to task for cheering on the leftist anti-American clown Chavez. Chavez’s anti-American politics appear to mesh pretty well with CapnAmerica’s and a few others.
It is telling that the left in this country cheers on this clown. He comes to our country and pisses on our government and he get cheered on by the left. Shows where your loyalty lies. Your irrational hate is showing.
I can’t wait for the bounce the Republicans are going to get out of this.
Anti American
Just who is REALLY anti American?
Am I or others “anti-American” because we use our Constitutional right to dissent?
Or is someone like Outlander or Paul Rosell anti-American because they elevate one man above the welfare and needs of not just America but the entire world?
Those delegates in the UN were sending some of you a message. If you quit shouting amen every time bush farts, you might hear it.
No JR. It is a fact that Hugo Chavez is anti-American. When the politics of some on this blog can’t be differentiated with Chavez’s. When this thug comes to the United States and blatantly criticizes our country and it’s leader, instead of telling him to butt out, the left cheers him on. Yes, I am calling that un-America.
I don’t know if the reports of CIA involvement in the coup to overthrow Chavez are true or not. But, it could be that he has reason to not like the U.S. a whole lot.
His theatrics were a political effort. Hating Bush/U.S. gets the support of a lot of people these days.
Then I must call you anti-American Outlander.
In fact the posts of you and all of the right would demonstrate love for America limited by economic or social considerations. You love America, but only so much as it touches you or makes you money. You will do anything to anyone if only it can advance your sad narrow agenda.
Ian Santiago,
Sadly, no. Hugo stopped taking my calls when I got my degree and took on the appearance of being of member of the bourgeoisie.
That speech was some funny, funny-assed shit, I tell you what. At least Hugo Chavez didn’t call himself “The Decider.” All you folks who want to worship Bush’s codpiece would do well to remember that stupid, stupid, stupid display. Chavez, at least, was funny. Bush, by contrast, is a whiny nutcase.
Outlander,
That dead cat bounce ain’t doing shit for W. Between his 37% approval rating and the GOP-controlled Congress’ astonishing 25% approval rating, W’s going to need the sodomized corpse of Osama to hold back the Democratic tsunami that’s building.
Of course you can agree with Chavez and applaud him.
No one is saying you can’t.
What we are saying is that it makes you an idiot for doing so.
Please don’t confuse our condescension with wanting to take away your rights to be idiots.
CF, I think you are going to disappointed, but I have to admit that you have a way with words.
Chavez is not anti-American, he’s anti-Bush. He makes that point again and again. It’s Chavez who offered to provide cheap natural gas to poor Americans. He’s a populist who is opposed to Bush’s imperialistic amibitions. It was the Bush crime family who backed a coup to oust the twice elected Chavez. I would think that that act alone would give Chavez ample justification to criticize the anti-democratic Bush.
Bush always claims things like “I’m not anti-Palestinian I’m just anti-elected government there”. Well, why cannot Chavez be not anti-American but just anti-USGovernment?
You can try and dismiss Chavez all you want, if you actually listened to the entire speech (available at CSPAN.com) you would know that he had much more to say than simply calling Bush “the devil” (which of course was tongue in cheek). Americans do not want to hear what Chavez says, but the rest of the world is listening, and they understand. Chavez’s speech will form part of the historical record for these increasingly dangerous days. The US is in fact faced with a choice – hegemonic fascism or a return to the world community, through a renewal of international organizations, like the UN and the ICC. The average American, the most indocrinated people on the planet, may think they have no role to play in that choice, and that US domination is assured either way – well, if they want to live in a police state with their government increasingly using military force abroad in order to keep the cheap gas flowing, they are quite correct .. but that is not sustainable, and when the the wheels finally come off, it will be the wealthy northern (aka imperialist) countries that crash.
JMIf you look on a previous thread, I believe the one on Torture, JR told me that I needed a shrink.JR started the quack psch stuff, not me.
Doug,Pelosi called Chavez a thug (just like I did.)Rangle told Chavez he was out of line.They did this because, rightly, Chavez and Rangle understand that The Iranian President and the Venezuelan President just gave Bush a bounce in the polls.
As a victim–errr, customer–of Aquila, where do I go to get some of Chavez’ cheap natural gas?
Doug, PB–You guys rock! Excellent analysis.
Outlander thinks I’m anti-American because I agree with Chavez about Bush.
Let’s compare–Chavez takes his country’s largest national resource and uses it to better the lives of all its citizens.
Bush takes our national resources and sells them off to the highest bidder.
If that’s what you call “American,” Outlander, then you’re right, I’m “anti” it.
I’m also secure enough in my love of country that I don’t have to take any sh*t about it from loser conservatives.
Patriotism . . . the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Venezuela has a poverty rate of about 50%. And I’m sure that their rate is figured differently from ours, so by American standards it is probably much worse.
If I were a citizen of Venezuela, I’d ask him what he is doing giving away oil when their is so much need in his own country. A quiz now. Why is he doing it Capn??
DougChavez practices real torture, not the same as what Bush adovocates at all.I know that degrees and shades of gray dont help your side of the arguement.Harsh interogation is what Bush advocates, in order to save lives.Harsh treatment, but not torture.
Paul – seems like you are parsing your words carefully. Given that we ahve seen bodies in freezers who were beaten to death would you care to clarify the difference between “uncomfortable” and “painful”?
By the way, just what the heck is waterboarding?
CapnI dont notice any conservative here “seeking refuge.” —Therefore you have no call to claim that any of us are scoundrels.To me, the average liberal cynic is a scoundrel, or at least very lazy.It is easier to believe that wealth is acquired only through dishonesty, that use of force is always wrong, that Republicans don’t “care” enough about the poor, than it is to use your brain and really consider facts.
Outlander
Maybe Chavez is attempting to win the hearts and minds of Americans in order to secure better relations between the US and Venezuela?
I remember that! It’s called diplomacy!
Little wonder that after 6 years of bush some have forgotten that idea.
BenYou are not being very specific are you?There are atrocities committed by our allies, that we cant condone but cant control.There are atrocities committed by states like Syria, which certainly is not an ally, but with whom we still try to cooperate. When another countrie asks us to extradite a prisoner, do we make value judgements that might bight us in the ass when we want the same privalage of extradition for one of their prisoners?Then, we have agents and employees and military personel of the US Government that perform illegal actions without the sanction of their superiors. When the chain of command disciplines, court martials or charges those individuals, it is pretty clear that this was not US policy but an isolated, individual, non sanctioned act.Then you have the valuable information obtained by the CIA which saved thousands of lives, information obtained by sleep depravation, water boarding and loud music. The American people have no problem with interrogations that are non life threatening and cause no bodily harm. Neither do I.Perhaps you do, Ben.Your opinion against all the above does not give you the right to be intellectually dishonest about the distinctions between all of these different circumstances.
Paul – the ones I am referrng to are specifically in the Prisons run by the US in Iraq. I am sure Chavez will justify “harsh treament” just as well as you do.
As for extradition – that was a CANADIAN citizen we sent to Syria to be “rendered”
“Maybe Chavez is attempting to win the hearts and minds of Americans in order to secure better relations between the US and Venezuela?” –JR
Ding! You get partial credit for that answer JR. True, he is trying to win hearts and minds, but Chavez does not want better relations with the U. S. He is also doing it to leave the impression that the U.S. does not take care of it’s own. More than a little disingenuous when you consider the need in his own country.
But do we want Chavez winning hearts and minds in the U.S.? I don’t think so, considering his clear anti-American agenda.
Actually, a better way to say it is that Chavez is trying to BUY hearts and minds.
Paul
Your depraved way of looking at the world is NOT shared by a majority of the American people. Whether you thinks so or not.
Many Americans WILL react with childish anger to what Chavez had to say. But that is because they are good in their hearts and foolishly defensive of bush. He is a rat bastard idiot. But he is THEIR rat bastard idiot.
The rest of the planet knows better.
A shame that folks like bush and you exploit that Paul.
outlander – maybe Chavez is trying to reach out to the American PEOPLE. Just like Bush claims he cares about Palestinian, Lebanese, Iraqi, etc PEOPLE. And how much are we doing for THEM?
Outlander?
Are you afraid for the leader of a foreign nation to come and address the American people? What are you afraid of? That they might hear something you might not like them to hear?
You are not alone.
Chavez apparently spoke at an American venue while he was here. He got loud applause and approval. The right is OUTRAGED at this. Hannity was just ranting about it. He wants Chavez prohibited from speaking here!
Why?
Bush supporters who advocate the use of torture sounds a lot like Bill Clinton when he was fighting impeachment and debated what the word “is” means.
These Bushies are so smug in their legalese and are trying so hard to justify their support of Bush.
After reading all the blogs thus far, the reason gun sales have skyrocketed are readily apparent. There are a lot of nuts posting here.
Surprise suprise JR. Chavez got applause in a Harlem church. Of course, we don’t know what he said. But if he said the same junk he did at U.N., I am disappointed but not surprised about his reception there.
My problem is that many Americans, mostly on the left, don’t treat our internal politics like they should be, internally. When an anti-American clown like Chavez comes to town and criticizes us he should not be applauded, he should be told to mind his own business. Even Charlie Rangel (sp) said as much.
But unfortunately, we still have to live with the consequences of Bush’s decisions and statements that he makes.
The reaction from Chavez’s speech troubles me. There were alot of heads nodding in agreement. Does that no worry any of you Bush supporters?
And dont’t tell me that these people are just wrong. That doesn’t cut the mustard any more. These are troubled times in the world and I see our president as adding fuel to the fire.
George W. said that he is a uniter not a divider. It is way past time for him to start showing that side of him – if he really has it within himself to do.
Stephen Davis was right–W supported a coup against Chavez in ‘02.
Now outlander lectures CHAVEZ! to “mind his own buisness.”
Hypocrisy, thy name is conservative!
I agree that Chavez had no right to call Bush the devil at the UN. But can you not see the reasoning behind this thinking?
Pat Robertson, a Neo-Con leader in the US, proudly said that the US needed to assassinate Hugh Chavez. And then George W. Bush still seeks advice from Pat Robertson? At the time Robertson said that statement, I did not see a groundswell of Bush supporters condemning Robertson’s outrageous statement.
Maybe this is why some in the world don’t like George W. Bush and see him as a devil?
Watch the video of Chavez crossing himself and looking to heaven when he talks about “the devil was here yesterday . . . and it still smells of sulphur.”
This guy is funny! He’s a natural wit.
He’s not content just to insult Bush . . . he RIDICULES him.
Bravo, mi amigo! Son el HOMBRE!
I have it figured out. Chavez tortures people because Paul doesn’t like Chavez. Bush doesn’t torture people because those who have been tortured, sometimes to their death, are Muslims.
I’m seeing the difference now. However the conservative Wall Street Journal mentions that Chavez doesn’t have secret prisons, holds prisoners indefinately, nor does he practice torture. Paul’s a known liar and sadist so why should I believe Paul over the WSJ who reports with a conservative bias but has more credibility than knuckle dragger Paul?
Bush tries to kill Chavez so Chavez retaliates by calling Bush the devil. Saddam tries to kill Bush’s daddy and Bush retaliates by destroying a country. Which response is worse?
What is Bush doing when he calls other countires the Axis of evil? This is his persistent rheotrical device. The “right” has been for years turning evry issue into a battle of absolute good vs. absolute evil. Yet when someone turns the rhetoric around outrage results. If Bush can call other regimes and by clear implication their leaders absolute evil why cant they return the favor? It is his own argument. If this is a fight between absolute good and absoluate evil as Bush says then is it categorically impermissible to even ask if our current leaders might be the real axis of evil? Call me what you want but to never permit that question is truly an immoral approach. If an individual acted on that premise they would effectively have no conscience because they would never consider the possibility that they might be wrong in their conduct. The present reaction shows that that question cannot be raised in any but the most timid terms while the opposite contention that others are always evil is commonly made in the most absolutist terms. Try counting the number of times that Bush has usd the term evil in describing other regimes.
Add to that the number of democracies that the US ahs overthrown to put in dictators. Star with Iran and the Shah.
As far as poverty in Venezuela goes, I invite people to check out .. http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/052506P.shtml
Chavez has popular support in Venezuela for a reason, namely increases in government services to the poor majority. Those services are funded by nationalized oil profits flowing back to the people who should own their own resources, and not to US-based Oil&Gas multinationals.
As far as “torture” in Venezuela goes, thinking that it is widespread and routine is a stereotypical assumption made about all Latin American countries. But it is an assumption that exists for good reason, thanks to the work of the School of the Americas, which trained the most notorious Central and South American torturers during the 70s and 80s – used to terrorize the people, to discourage them from participating in popular movements that might challenge US-approved regimes.
As far as Venezuela goes “today”, Amnesty International has a lot to say – there are continued concerns about excessive use of force, but there is also praise for recent developments. Chavez brought in a constitution which “guarantees the right to physical integrity; to be free from torture or ill-treatment; of detainees to be treated with dignity; and of victims of these abuses to rehabilitation. It also stipulates that any state official responsible for causing, instigating or tolerating ill-treatment or mental or physical suffering will be punished according to law.”
The bulk of Amnesty’s concerns in the last few years was with the threat of violence surrounding the US-backed coup attempts.
Hugo Chavez has the fortune/misfortune of being the Che Guevara of the 21st Century. You know what, though? At least it’s not another country licking our ass or cowering in fear. We walk around like we have everyone on this planet swinging from our proverbial nuts. Not so.The UN would hand us our own ass on a regular basis if we weren’t a charter member with veto powers.Not to mention, they would hand Israel their own ass on a regular basis if WE weren’t a charter member with veto powers.We have become the global equivalent of the schoolyard bully. The rest of the world secretly prays for the day that we either quit playing Conquistador or that the next “Coalition of the Willing” is willing to kick our ass.
And that’s sad. I love this country, and I love our freedoms. To jeopardize all that was fought for by going around fish-slapping everyone that we don’t like, calling them “evil,” is retarded. We bash Chavez, but we hardly hold ourselves to any standard, much less a “higher standard.”
http://reuters.myway.com/article/20060921/2006-09-21T164325Z_01_N21334844_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-VENEZUELA-USA-SPAT-DC.html
Wow, Nancy Pelosi calls Chavez a thug. You see lefties, this how Americans are supposed to act when a foreigner insults us. As much as I disagree with Ms. Pelosi on most issues, she does have pride of country.
outlander ..
You have made the common mistake of confusing your government with “the country” and its people.
Yes, once upon a time, the US government was supposed to be “for and by” the people, but you would have to be out of your mind to think that the current government represents you, or any average American, nor does it consist of average Americans.
The government and its actions are who and what Chavez was addressing. The government consists of the elite in service of the elite, Democrat and Republican alike.
There might be a couple of “left-leaning” Democrats in government but Pelosi and the rest of the so-called leadership of the Democratic party contains none of them. I remember the late, great Sen. Paul Wellstone, but other than him it’s hard to think of another who isn’t a neo-liberal sellout.
Good posts PB, John henry and suza. Welcome to the forum.
Pelosi was just upset that the devil was being insulted by being compared to Bush.
PB–Don’t know who you are, but you know your stuff, my friend.
Well done!
You’re exactly right about the Democratic Leadership. They’re slightly more liberal than wild-eyed radical conservatives.
Big whoop.
Then they can’t figure out why the party keeps losing–duh, give middle class workers a pledge of FAIR TRADE.
Nope, too liberal.
“There’s no point voting for a fake Republican when you can vote for a real one.” Harry Truman
My main man these days is Russ Feingold.
Heh, no kidding, Doug!
The devil wears a bracelet: “what would Cheney do?”
Both parties are so contaminated by special interests – corporate, Religious Right, Liberal Left, corruption, etc. that the government is not even effective any more.
But when the average American gets testy – then of course we hear that we don’t really understand all the dynamics or it is too complex of a problem for our little pinheads to comprehend.
Do they take us for fools? But there are those loyal party people who are fools and will vote straight party lines no matter what.
I think it is time for independent thinking done by independent politicians. Maybe someday that will be a reality.
The reason they were given visas is because they are both elected leaders of their countries; whereas ours was selected.
“The reason they were given visas is because they are both elected leaders of their countries; whereas ours was selected.”
Exaclty how was ours selected? He won the Electoral College in both 2000 and 2004. Every recount, done the way Gore wanted, by numerous groups showed he won the 2000 election, and short of crackpot conspiracy theorists, he won both elections. Personally, I prefer the removal of the EC and allowing us to directly choose the President, but the Dems have fought this one as strongly as the Repubs so it still exists.
For the 2000 election, if you check the internet, you find that over 65,000 New Yorkers voted in both NY and Florida, and the majority of those votes (10,000+ more D than R) were Dems.
Why are Dems able to convince the common people that they are just like us, and for us, when they choose a billionaire worth more than his Rep challenger to run for President?
Sadly, people continue to vote D/R Party when if they woke up, they would realize there is no real difference between the two. All they care about is being re-elected.
Bush is a socio-pathetic dangerous man. It’s so easy to forgive him because of this and think Dick Cheney is the real devil. Let’s not forget that foreigners aren’t used to Bush’s devilish face as much as we are now…