A new study by John Wong, a professor at the Hugo Wall School of Urban and Public Affairs at Wichita State University, determined that low-income Kansans pay a higher percentage of their income for taxes than middle- and upper-income residents, the Lawrence Journal-World reported. Property taxes were particularly regressive, as the lowest-income group in Kansas paid 23.6 percent of its income on property taxes, while the highest-income households paid 0.6 percent of their income. One policy change recommended by advocacy groups for the poor is to reduce the number of exemptions and property tax abatements, so that the tax burden can be more fairly distributed.
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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95 Comments
PLEASE!! The “poor” pay a higher percentage of their income in food, gas, utilities, rent, and anything else we need in order to survive. Maybe it’s because they don’t make as much money as others that a larger percentage of their income goes to basic needs…..duh!I already pay more than $5,000 a year in property taxes, but yet you say that I “don’t pay my fair share”….give me a break!! My husband and I already pay a hefty sum in income tax, also. When are we going to quit punishing the people who bother to get an education and work hard to be successful?Property tax should be based on the value of the property a person owns, not what their income happens to be. The idea that there are poor people in this country is a fallacy anyway. If you want to really see what poverty is, then I’d suggest you all take a trip to another country where the are no food banks or social services. That where true poverty really exists.
Total agreement with ya, Mary. The poor pay a higher percentage of their income for cell phones too, does that mean that they need their cell phones to be subsidized?
Why are they poor? When the vast majority of people living in poverty don’t have a high school education, I believe that is a clue. They refused to take advantage of the FREE public education (that us tax payers provide), and instead wind up on welfare (again, provided by tax payers), living in subsidized housing (again, provided by tax payers), riding on subsidized busses, getting food stamps, etc., etc., etc.
It has been proven time and time again, lifetime income is directly related to education level achieved.
Taxes are too high for everyone!
What a lopsided debate this will prove to be. If you’re considered “poor” or poverty level you probably don’t have regular access to the internet. As you sit in your comfortable homes and throw your ill-informed comments in response to the truly educated people and their documented evidence, please take a moment from your self congratulatory prose and realize that equality is not a handout. All you read, see or hear in this debate is how it effects your pocket books, not how it betters the life for all Kansans, increasing fairness and equality.
As I posted on another thread: Listen to the repugs cry…………………… WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
Lopsided, they just don’t get it.Damn poor people, they don’t pay enough taxes. Now I can’t buy TWO Acuras!
You had a good post until the comment that there is no poverty in the US. Are you blind? Perhaps you should get out of Eastbourgh and go around the country. Other than that you made some good points. As raptor said busses, welfare, subsidized housing, and food stamps are all funded by taxes. The question I pose to you and raptor is this: Doesn’t it make sense that one way to lower taxes would be to help these people get off of these tax funded programs?
I wonder if that study takes into account the number of “poor” people who scrape up every dime they have to buy a house.
I know many people who CHOOSE to pay most of their income for a home.
I wonder if the study even takes into account those “poor” people who buy homes which they can’t afford in the first place.
There are many people who end up spending too much of their income on a home payment. The bigger the property, obviously the more in taxes you pay.
I do agree with you though Mary. I have been to every coastal country of South America, the West Coast of Africa, Korea, and now I’m in Iraq.
At least the “poor” people here can buy a home.
Try looking at how the everage person lives in Korea jammed into apartment buildings with rooms half our size.
And most of them are children . . .
What poor people pay in taxes can’t be spent on other necessities. My wife last week so an old woman all arthritic looking,well into her late seventies working at McDonald’s. Something tells me she doesn’t spend her money on cell phones.
Wow! Totally amazing! Success is measured by your income? When will people stop thinking that their money or education to get money is what life is about? We are all to be judged when we die folks, and I know people with lots-o-money think the dollar will save them? Or the amount they give away is recorded so one can get a tax-break for their giving? How about giving for giving and not tooting your horn or expect less taxes for it? Compassion for your brother that is “Rich” or for your brother that is “Poor” is something to think about. Drs make the worst patients, and folks with goobs of money are the worst when trials hit or their money disappears. Money is not the root of all evil, but THE LOVE of money is. We will all return to dust and Im glad Im not weathy but have just what I need. Sorry to say that the one with the most toys ,does NOT win. GOOD Health to all of you.
Quit injecting reality into the debate Steve. You’re going to pop the precious bubble these people live in.
Well well well
Listen to the howls of the comfortable.
I’ve seen your neighborhood of residence Mary and where you grew up Nathan.Nice place. I’m surprised they even let me in. I’m TRYING to feel for ya. Somehow I can’t work up much. And since you don’t even seem to be trying to be sympathetic, I don’t feel like I need to.
So your arguement and raptors here is that the poor in America are not suffering ENOUGH? So to have sympathy for them they have to show that they suffer on a level with some in some foreign nation you have been priveledged enough to visit?What a wonderful vision you have for America?I agree with “Lopsided”. The TRULY poor will not get to weigh in here. They don’t have the internet or maybe even a home to use it from.
If you read the header carefully, you understand better. A person of limited means try as hard work as hard as he may, pays more by percentage because he has a smaller pool to pay that percentage from. This is where ideas like the “fair tax” fall apart. What I pay I for a loaf of bread and the taxes on it and what a wealthy person pays are the same in amount but vastly different personally.
Goodness, I didn’t realize that when I was poor I got so much free stuff. Apparently the room I rented was taxpayer subsidized (it wasn’t), my college education was free (makes me wonder why I paid all that tuition), I got food stamps and welfare checks (that would have been nice, but again no), and I got subsidized bussing (sure, if I wanted to walk a few miles for it).
If we taxed stupidity it would really cut into some people’s trust funds. Try taking that silver spoon out of your ass ‘raptor’ and don’t equate poverty with laziness.
k, you’ve obviously never been to a country where you see 3 yr old children begging for food, or people living in a tin roof shed with a bunch of children who have no shoes, food, or a chance for education. In this country, if a child is going hungry, it’s because they’re being abused and neglected by their parents. Believe me, I don’t live in an ivory tower, looking down upon those who have less that I do. I work with the poor everyday, providing them services and helping them to find services that they need to make their lives better. My point is: services are there for those who need them, and no one in this country has to go without food or health care because they don’t have enough money. I’ve yet to see someone who would be considered the poorest of the poor in this country without a TV or a telephone. In most countries, those items, along with many others, are considered luxuries, not essentials.Open your eyes, it’s BECAUSE we enable people so much that so many are incapable and depend on the government for their every need, because they haven’t developed the tools or the confidence to do it for themselves. It’s the same as parents who let their 30 yr old kid to live in the basement, how is he supposed to learn how to take care of himself if his parents provide for his every need and are much too anxious to allow him be uncomfortable in any way. The only way that “kid” can become an adult and build his confidence and self esteem is to overcome his problems on his own without his parents bailing him out everytime he finds himself in hot water due of his own irresponsibility.Our society’s heart is in the right place, but it really has created more problems than it solved by shielding people from the consequences of their poor choices and taking care of those who are capable and need to learn how to take care of themselves. We have MORE helpless and dependant people in this country since the start of Johnson’s “great society”, not less. It was a great idea that went way too far and backfired on our country.
Hallalujah!
I have bookmarked this page so I can respond to the selfish f*cks who continually trot out that red herring “97 percent of all income taxes are paid by the top 5 percent of income earners” .
Of course that assumes that the right-wing can be persuaded by fact, an assumption proven wrong over and over again.
Silver spoon? Oh ye of little knowledge but much stupidity.
I grew up in poverty. We worn hand me downs donated by church people. I borrowed money to go to college and worked all the way thru. It took me years to pay back the college loans.
Silver spoon? Next time you want to accuse someone, Doug, don’t speak out your ass.
Raptor,
So did John Edwards.
The difference is he’s not ashamed of his past and hasn’t turned his back on people living like he did . . .
Excuse me JR? I grew up in a very blue collar working class neighborhood, my parents never had any money and I worked my ass off to get where I am today. I’ll dare say I’ve contributed more of my life to helping the poor and handicapped than most peole are willing to do.I’m just tired of others thinking I should be penalized because I’ve worked hard and made healthy choices most of my life, I already pay my fair share of taxes.
RS, as a cancer survivor, I know what’s really important in life and I take nothing for granted. Just because I’m financially comfortable doesn’t mean I don’t “get it”, it’s because I do “get it” that I am comfortable and secure right now. It can all go away in a second, and I realize that more than many. I have all the compaasion and empathy to help those less fortunate than myself, that has been my life work and will continue to be.
And while you’re at it, maybe you could tell Mary Caruso there really are poor people in this country.
And most of them are children . . .
We will have to accept the fact that there is always going to be poor people (what ever defines that) and there is always going to be rich people (what ever defines that).
We also have to accept that fact that not everybody can be rich and not everybody can be poor.
What makes American different is that we have mobility and opportunity to not be poor. It’s not very easy mind you, but it exist. There isn’t any laws against a poor person to make more money (legally) or too keep them poor.
Most people are poor because they think poor. Ideologies like leftism and political parties like Democrats try to keep poor people poor by focusing on brining the rich down, but doing nothing about brining the poor up.
Some people are poor because they are born in that enviroment and have so many obstacles to overcome (none of them political). You get a poor kid in a poor and crime ridden neighborhood with a terrible government school system allowing them not to learn, that kid will have a very difficult time to get out of poverty.
As far as taxes go. The only thing we can do is go to a Fair Tax system. That way poor people have no tax burden and the rich pay more of their share into the system.
I have to wonder about the Journal-World’s figures.
Just for the sake of getting some numbers, start with a house appraised at $100,000. Assessed value is then $11,500. With a mill levy of about 113, that’s about $1300 in property tax, annually. If that represents 25% of someone’s income, that implies an annual income of $5,200.
Of course, that person might own a car they pay property tax on. They might qualify for the homestead tax exemption that reduces the tax on their home. Someone with an income so low would have nearly all their property tax refunded to them.
So I see raptor, everyone who is or was poor was lazy except for yourself. So you are just a stupid hypocrite. How about you get your head out of your ass?
“k, you’ve obviously never been to a country…”
While I am well traveled you are right, I have never seen what you have described. Where have you seen it? In this country? Is that the norm for people in poverty or just the worst off? The fallacy that many people make is directly comparing the poor in this country with the poor in other countries. A person in poverty in the US makes under some amount and pays various amounts for necessities (food, clothing, etc.) Those prices are not universal and people in other countries don’t make or pay the same amount so a direct comparison is nonsensical.
“My point is: services are there for those who need them, and no one in this country has to go without food or health care because they don’t have enough money.”
Thanks to taxes (among other sources). Without taxes a lot of these people would go without. Now I will agree with the point someone will make that there is abuse. However that or lower taxes are no reason to cut these programs that help so many.
Doug–
If you had anything to offer other than vulgar, false and insulting accusations, it might be worth the time to respond to you.
But..you take cheap shots with no basis in fact, without any knowledge of the person you are attacking, and intended only to lower the level of what could be an intelligent debate to a slur of vulgar invectives.
Not going to waste any more time even reading your drivel. You are an insulting bore.
So you can substantiate your claim that the vast majority of the poor don’t have a high school education and are lazy? So you wore hand me downs and had to get loans for college, welcome to the world of practically everybody.
Your whining is falling on deaf ears you phony.
This story is another excellent example of how the media exerts its profoundly liberal bias on the news. When Bush’s tax cuts were passed in 2001, all we heard from the media was the rich getting tens of thousands of dollars in tax relief while the poor received $200. Nevermind that the $200 represented a 100% reduction, while the rich’s taxes were reduced by only about 10%.
In this story, the focus is on percentage rather than absolute dollars. Why? Because that’s the angle that ‘makes’ the story.
When I read this headline, I literally laughed outloud. The poor have the highest tax burden. Are you kidding me? OOOhhhh, the highest PERCENTAGE… “Well duh – of course they pay more.” They pay a higher percentage on groceries, electricity and gasoline, too. Is anyone truly surprised by this?
I’m surprised that you, KSGolfnut, have been so truthful in your scorn and ridicule of the poor.
Usually you people try to hide it under code words like “welfare queen” or “minorities.”
BTW, golf is for sissies, but at least it keeps you people away from real Americans . . .
Susan Wilkins–
The poor pay property taxes even when they rent.
Otherwise, the landlords would go out of business.
CapnAmerica, what is the point you’re making, please?
Y’know, you all who feel so superior to poor people would be up up your necks in trash, out of fresh fruit and vegetables and doing your own child care and yard work if it wasn’t for them! You would have nobody to wait on you in your fine restaurants or fast food joints, or take care of your parents in nursing homes without them. You think poverty is a third-world problem? Look around you; it’s right next door! Of course we keep the worst of it a little further afield, and out of sight, so we don’t feel so bad, but we live off the poor and do our best to keep them poor so we can keep their services cheap. Just think about the percentage of your riches you’d cough up if you had to pay all those people a living wage.
JR,
Once again you pretend like you know something about me.
I don’t know what kind of complex you have about people who worked for what they have…jealousy perhaps?
You were invited with open arms into our neighborhood, my family and I have extended you our hospitality.
XXX and JR have been welcomed into our home.
I don’t understand why you feel like you shouldn’t be welcomed into our neighborhood, that is more on you and not us.
Just to let you know JR, I grew up in low income housing, lived on food stamps, and had far from the perfet life like you are under the delusion I had.
This is the third time I have seen you interject my family’s supposed life of luxary into this blog.
My Step Mom worked her but off for everything she has and it was not handed to her.
KSGolfnut are you naturally a moron or do you work at it? They use percentages in comparisons so there is a reference point. Mainly being their total income. Why do you think taxes are percentages? Why don’t we just tax everyone $30k a year? That is fair isn’t it? Everyone pays the same amount of tax. Oops, what about those who don’t make 30K a year? Hmmmmmm……..your dumb.
One of these days I am going to be able to get my teeth work on, but first I have to buy the dentist’s kids brand new sports cars.
The patronizing bullshit here has just has reached critical level.
News flash: people who are poor don’t have money, and don’t have the money to make money. It’s an uphill battle, by design.
To make the usual illogical and factually unsupported inferences about their ambitions, work ethic, and character I’ve seen here (as if ‘the poor’ was somehow a monolithic, uniform group) is contemptable (Bill Gates is obscenely rich but, hey, problems with his software notwithstanding, I like the guy!).
BTW, I noticed amid all the whining no one made any attempt to refute the author’s conclusions. Or is it okay that the poor pay a larger percentage of their income in taxes than those who hae more income than them?
I’ll agree the poor pay too much in taxes, but then so does everybody else. I don’t have any more sympathy for them than I do for everyone else who is having their pockets picked.
I agree that people below a certain income level should pay no taxes. But, it is true that the poor are eligible for many tax payer funded services and programs. Lastly, it is also ture that most poor peple in America are obese, so they ain’t starving!
v.L.R.B!!
Well Nathan I can only go by what you post here.
If your past is as you say it is I am puzzled by your current way of thinking. But I find that it is common among many who have “made it” to forget where they “came from” if you take my meaning. Me I’ve had it somewhat easier. That is until the last few years. I didn’t know just how much this society is slanted toward those that have and against those who don’t until I became one of the have nots.
Capn that was a GREAT point about how landlords pay no property taxes!
Well, Todd, I suggest firing politicians who give huge tax breaks to the rich at the ultimate expense of the middle class and poor.
Unfortunately, we’ll paying for the current massive borrowing spree for generations to come. To paraphrase H.R. Haldeman, the toothpaste is already out of the tube.
Take two people afflicted with the same illness.Both of them goes to the doctor, the doctor treats both of them the same way.The doctor charges them the same price of services.One makes a hundred thousand dollars a year; the other makes ten thousand dollars a year.For the one with a hundred thousand it is pocket change.For the one with only ten thousand it is a decision that determines your meal for the day.
One of these days Joe Williams is going to be a hero (As far as taxes go. The only thing we can do is go to a Fair Tax system.)We are supposed to be having that now; your tax is base on what you make per a year.Too bad, that those life necessities are not on the same principles.To solve the problems of the poor does not begin with the government; it begins with the individual person who has a compassion for the well being of their fellow human beings.
What we are seeing here is the death of the American dream. The idea is that if your work hard, use your head, and play by the rules, success will eventually be yours.
All you have to do is work your way up the ladder. The fact that there might be people pulling up the ladder behind them is not something anyone WANTS to believe.
I got mine. Now TRY to get yours!
“To solve the problems of the poor does not begin with the government; it begins with the individual person who has a compassion for the well being of their fellow human beings.”
I agree with that, Wiseman. The problem is too many people will volunteer at a soup kitchen, participate in a food drive or whatnot, and then think that gives them carte blanche to ignore the poverty in their own communities.
Until of course, someone on the street hits them up for money. Notice how that’s happening more and more often these days? I can’t hit the Circle K without expecting a beggar.
Wiseman,”To solve the problems of the poor does not begin with the government; it begins with the individual person who has a compassion for the well being of their fellow human beings.”
Unfortunately, there seems to be quite a lack of compassion, as evidenced by some of the posters here.
Just imagine for a moment that in an instant every adult in America had at least a four year degree. The result would be 9o % of the country living at subsistence level. What really gets me is the same people who demand that every child should be born, are the same ones that yelled the loudest about welfare queens, and milking the system.
The ability to work your way up in the world is getting harder and harder to do. In the past, we had apprenticeships…you worked your way up. Today, you have to have a college education- and that is not always possible no matter how hard you work at it. I’m so tired of hearing how lazy the poor is- they work hard hard work, they use every cent just to put food on the table and pay their utilities and keep a roof over their heads. In some places you HAVE to have a car in the rural areas. I’d really like to see some of these yahoos live on 800 a month.
K, go to Honduras, India, even Mexico. You’ll see plenty of children living on the streets, begging in order to survive. There is no social system set up to help people like the one we have here, not even for the physically disabled or mentally handicapped. Our society is nothing like other countries at all. We live in such a safe and secure bubble, unaware of what true poverty is, so we think that everyone who eats at the Lord’s Diner is poor. No one has to go hungry in this country and even my poorest clients have cable TV and money for cigarettes.Yes, children are the largest group of poor people in this country (thanks to the welfare system), but still they get free food, clothing, school supplies, and transportation to and from school. I know some kids “living in poverty” who have counselors that actually come into their home to work with and try to help the whole family. You’d never see anything like that in a third world country. In many countries, the most anyone can hope for is about a 6th grade education.I guess I get tired of hearing Americans whine about how our society is so unfair and the poor are so persecuted by the rich. Give me a break. Anyone can live a good life in this country, if they’re willing to work for it.
PMom, When I was first married, my husband and I lived on less than $500 a month. We had three kids before I went to nursing school. You don’t have to tell me how hard it is to get an education sometimes, but if a person is motivated enough, they can do anything. It’s self defeating attitudes that keep people down, not the world around them.
At least you had a husband Mary, could you have done that if you didn’t?
Could you have done it if one of your children was handicapped, or if you were handicapped? Different situations for different people…sometimes you can have all the determination in the world, and situations STILL make that climb nearly impossible.
Mary,We have kids prostituting themselves, or being rented out by their parents right here in Wichita. We have kids going hungry right now. We have people living on the streets. We have children put to work picking crops. The third world is all around you if you just look!
I know many women who worked and were raising children without the help of a husband and made it through school. I know several women with handicapped children who managed to get an education and hold down a decent job. “Nearly impossible” doesn’t mean that it’s not possible.I even know three totally blind people who manage to support themselves, two are social workers and the other is a receptionist. Nothing is impossible if you have the right attitude. We have so much opportunity here, and we are so blessed to live in this country.
I never said there wasn’t child abuse, Jed. If a child is going hungry, it’s a direct result of his/her parents. That’s a whole different issue.
People don’t have to live on the streets, there are services for everyone if they want to take advantage of them. I know, I work in the system. No one has to be homeless and living on the street. I think you guys watch to much TV or something. Poverty in America is a choice or a consequence.I have a mentally retarded client who owns his own home and held a job for over 20 yrs. If he can make it, anyone can.
“Poverty in America is a choice or a consequence”
Yes Mary. Some folks and sometimes there is little control over those consequences.
Your view is more than a little rosy and I am sad to say somewhat unfairly judgemental. I’d be glad to share some stories with you to enlighten it a bit.
MaryI too agree with your original post.Income taxes are designed to be “progressive” based somewhat on ability to pay and means.Property taxes are also somewhat progressive, in that commercial property is taxed at a much higher rate than residential property.Automobile taxes are too high, but lets fight that by lowering the tax for everyone!What gets me about this John Wong study, (Hint to the Eagle and WSU study writers, POST your study so we can review it!) what gets me is that it doesnt seem to mention where the “poor” get their income.Are you saying that someone who is on Food Stamps, Welfare, WIC vouchers, HUD subsidized housing etc should not have to pay ANY taxes at all?They are paying their taxes to one government agency with funds they receive from another arent they?And, do the “poor” in this study count their TOTAL government assistance as “income.”One other thing, property tax abatements can and are abused, but the purpose of muni bond financing with property tax abatements is to promote economic growth and jobs.In the act making things “fair” do we quit promoting job growth?If muni bonds with property tax abatements dont creat jobs, why do we do it?One other thing, the “poor” do get an income tax credit, a refundable credit, the Earned Income Credit, which refunds their Social Security taxes and then some, in many cases.Yet, the poor still qualify for SS benefits as if they had actually paid in.I am not advocating a change in any programs.I am also not crying to Wongs violin.
Has Mary worked so long in Social Services that she’s burned out or has just become jaded? Different people in the same circumstance have different resources, or perhaps one has none. They most likely are not of the same intellectual capacity. Neither of which makes one better than the other.
It is not about the rich being better than the poor steve, it is about the attitude that somehow the rich are not paying taxes while the poor suffer for it.
Obviously you have never seen the taxes a small business owner has to wade through or the property tax someone has to pay on a 150,000-200,000 home.
The so called “rich” are paying taxes too.
I disagree with Mary on many things, but she is far from some burned out social worker.
Lets leave the personal insults out of this shall we, or is it too hard for you to talk about the facts without the Ad Hominem attacks?
Bush already made his plans to fight poverty clear, he bases everything on averages. So in order to quickly make 100 poor people rich they just need to get in a room with Bill Gates. Then all of them will be multi-millionares, on average. Therefore the tax cuts for the rich are a good thing.
Don’t confuse ol’ Bush on statistics though, he gets a little fuzzy on that math. However he does understand how difficult it is to put food on your family.
Property tax increases are nothing more than stealing from the paychecks of the working poor and middle class. My property taxes (in term of the dollar amont I pay) goes up every year because of my property appreciation. But I don’t receive any more money from my home on a monthly basis to pay these extra taxes. I am incredibly angry at Kansas government at all levels for letting this travesty occur. Kansas Government views us all as one giant ATM machine to feed the greedy Topeka pigs and their expensive social welfare programs. A Pox on All Their Houses!
“Has Mary worked so long in Social Services that she’s burned out or has just become jaded? ”
I suspect that’s about right. When I worked at SRS, I constantly saw some workers taking a dose of attitude toward the clientele. Just as burn-out cops start to view everyone on the street as a perp, social workers start viewing the people they serve as irresponsible leeches.
The truth be told, though, only a few slick scam artists are really living off the system. No one in their right mind WANTS to live that way. I know that some of the chronics I met were people who would have a hard time getting employed under ANY circumstances.
Mary, before Johnson’s War on Poverty, people WERE starving in America, and in large numbers. I’m all in favor of revamping the system, in favor of one that actually helps people re-enter the workforce, rather than trapping them in a bureaucratic maze. Too often, far too much time is spent fulfilling the requirement of the system itself!
Unfortunately, welfare reform did the exact opposite–it was entirely punitive, a convenient method for pushing people off the rolls and under the rug. Out of sight, out of mind.
I also don’t buy the notion that the system itself somehow CREATES poverty. That’s just ridiculous.
The latest increase in property taxes is completely unnecessary. Thankfully they won’t be used for Mayans football team but the other purchases are just as wasteful. We have corporate welfare for airline manufacturers who are raking in the profits. The other waste is an addition to the prison. The extra beds won’t hold all the corrupt politicians but a better option would be to remove unncessary laws that burden the taxpayers with court costs and jail time.
Considering more taxes remain uncollected than will be made by the increase perhaps it would benefit the county to collect on those, like Terry Fox, who don’t pay their taxes and owe more than $1,000. As for those businesses that don’t pay the county can forgive the interest on the unpaid taxes and set up payment plans.
The ol’ county could pay down their debt so so much of our taxes doesn’t go to debt payments later on. Too many years of self-proclaimed fiscally responsible Republicans have generated to much wasteful spending and debt interest. Perhaps we can elect more people like Sebelius who knows how to balance a checkbook.
How to NOT be poor:Get married, and stay that way. Have your children after the marriage, not before. Teach them to be self-sufficient by age 18, or at least 20. Go to school. Recognize that bad habits (we all have them)make for frivolous spending. Everybody over 16, unless in school or raising kids, should have a job. Tithe. Dump the cell phone(s). Get movies at the library instead of the video store. Pray. Cook at home. Learn to fix things yourself. Avoid big stores, but when you go, buy only what’s on your list before you arrive, and don’t purchase on impulse. Any others to add?
(I also don’t buy the notion that the system itself somehow CREATES poverty. That’s just ridiculous.)
Rage -It happens all the time it is called bankruptcy, garnishment and repossession, try not paying your taxes and I guarantee you that the IRS will send you threating letters.
Heh, interesting take, Wiseman. In a more global sense, I once again agree. There is also really no such thing as a “self-made man.”
Money can’t buy you happiness and happiness can’t buy you money.
We create many of the lower income people by our tax laws.
Anyone that prepares tax returns knows that the earned income credit is used by many couples that live together but will purposely not get married. Why you ask?
If a couple is married and both work, they will probably not qualify for the earned income credit.
So the woman (usually the one with the lower income) will file single and claim all her children. She will not pay in any taxes plus she gets a big fat check from us the taxpayers according to how many children she has.
In the real world, a big fat check every year speaks louder than all your preaching about being married and waiting to have your kids until after marriage.
And in today’s society, being a single parent and living with your lover is not looked down on any more.
Mary,If poverty is a choice, then so is being a millionaire, and if that’s the case, how come we aren’t all millionaires?
There is this little thing called INEQUALITY that prevents us all from being rich. Leftists hate to hear this but people are born with different levels of ability, ambition, comfort levels etc.; equality is a myth!
It is very hard to become wealthy unless you own your own business and most people are too comfortable just getting a paycheck.
It would be nice if people didn’t have kinder that they couldn’t take care of, huh? Of course, try telling that to negro women who pop out bastard, future welfare spongers and criminals like hens laying eggs. The same is true of non-White latinos! We live in a sick society where the most productive poeple have to work to subsidize the least productive elements of society!
Viva La Revolucion Blanco!!
Where one ends up in life is often a consequence of their choices. That’s just life. I know it’s not the politically correct thing to say, but if more people quit making excuses and start taking responsibility for themselves, we wouldn’t have a lot of the problems we see in this country. I’m not “burned out” even though I’ve worked in the system for over 20 yrs. I’m just being honest about what I’ve observed. It’s those who are always making excuses for why they can’t do something that usually don’t go anywhere in life. It’s the self defeating attitude that holds them down. It’s not what happens to you in life so much as what you do with what happens to you. The first step is taking responsiblity for mastering the problems life throws your way and getting beyond them. I know many people who have dealt with major obstacles, yet manage to lead fulfilling, productive, and happy lives, and I know far too many people who have the ability to do great things, but pass up the opportunites and perfer to blame everyone and everything but themselves because it takes too much effort to change. It’s all about attitude, and when you aren’t challeged or held responsible for your problems, it’s too easy to stay stuck. I’m amazed how so many think I’m some cold hearted bitch simply because I know the best thing for people is to be responsible and in charge of their own lives. When one relys on government assistance as a way of life, you can bet they’ll be doomed to live a life of poverty, both materially and emotionally.
Still, the poorest of the poor in this country have it better than many of the average citizens in other countries. In our country, we have poverty of spirit more than anything.
Jed, you can choose to be a millonaire, you just have to work your butt off to do it, that’s why we’re not all millionaires.You can also choose to blame the world for your circumstances…chances are you’ll end up poor, but that’s so much easier than the alternative.
Mary’s right, Jed! Unless you steal the money, you have to earn it by doing things that people are willing to pay you for.
To be poor, you need do nothing at all.
Y’know Mary,In the course of my work, I came to know a number of very rich people. Not one of them worked as hard as most of the poor people I know, unless you call schmoozing at parties “work.” It’s the poor who work their butts off in this country!
“It’s the poor who work their butts off in this country!”
Jed basically nailed it. It is literally impossible to be poor and survive WITHOUT working hard. The working poor are the most responsible people in this country.
Mary, you can blather all you want about attitudes. The truth is that you don’t know your clients THAT well; you’re simply extrapolating, based on a few bad experiences and your own prejudices. Those who can’t get their acts together will not suddenly discover responsibility when they’re dead broke, homeless and hungry (more likely, they’ll discover the benefits of crime). As I’ve said upthread, to the extent that the system discourages individual incentives, OF COURSE it should be changed.
Obviously, I favor all the things you talked about: responsibility, not making excuses, etc. But as I recall, the original subject of the thread was the higher taxation based on INCOME (you know, WORK). Yes, “a larger percentage of their income goes to basic needs…..duh!”–the “duh” was a fitting summary of your alleged argument, as if high taxation of mere survival was somehow a law of nature. How dare those ‘poor’ people (your quotes) spend so much money on “food, gas, utilities and rent.” They should tighten the belts, walk to work, wear coats indoors. . . and then buy a flat-screen TV or two.
Mary, I guess you’re so upset about your property taxes that you’re willing to scapegoat the poor and embrace obvious contradictions. That’s too bad.
P.S. I was under the impression you worked in the mental health field, which has nothing to do with any of this.
C’mon Jed, just work your ass off like Mary says. That’s why we have so many immigrants in the fields picking lettuce for 30 cents an hour driving home in Caddys. That’s why those Chinese in sweatshops working 14 hour days vacation in Italy every other month.
Some people still believe that nonsense that hard work equals wealth. I can get more wealth out of a trust fund or a lawsuit than I ever could working my ass off at a desk job.
I forgot to mention that another way of getting a lot of wealth is to be corrupt. Yes, crime does pay, here’s a real life example.
Keith Mason, of Operation Rescue West, makes no money. He hasn’t had a job in quite some time. Sure, he works but he’s simply a “missionary” so he reports no income to the government. The organization he “volunteers” for claims they don’t pay him anything but he and his family subsists off donations alone.
Keith lives in a $100,000 house and he owes over a $1,000 in property taxes which he probably won’t pay. With no income he doesn’t have to pay an income tax but he can receive plenty of tax breaks.
Did Keith work hard for his money? Nope, but he got it all anyway because he, and his organization, simply got hundreds of thousands of dollars in donations that were tax-exempt.
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Rage, just a short note as I have to go to WORK…..Yes, I know my clients very well, and yes I do work in the mental health field. Part of my job is insuring that my clients don’t lose their services, which at this point is a day to day struggle. The state is looking for ways it can cut back, like cutting off home health nursing services for a quadrapeldgic with a feeding tube who has the mind of a two yr old (that was last week) and cutting off nursing services for a wheel chair bound lady with cerebal palsy who can’t speak clear enough for others to understand her (that’s this week’s battle). Don’t think I don’t know what the real world is like, some of you should try to venture into it sometime, it would open your eyes.I resent state money going to people who are capable of doing for themselves, becuase there isn’t enough to go around even for those who desparately need it to literally survive. Some people are poor because of their choices, then there are those who are poor because they have no choices at all.
Hey…Where’d everybody go?!? Come back and fight like a man!!!!!
Mary,Why? You just conceded the point!
Ok this thread is glitched.
I just posted here a while ago to political mom who also posted. Those posts and many others are gone.
Yo eagle and typepad! Get your act together!
Jed is correct, Mary. Feel free to claim victory if you want. :)
OK, Yea!!…I’m the winner!!!! (Rocky theme music)
If a person has arms and legs, and IQ average or above, and can walk and talk, they shouldn’t be on government assistance. Medicaid should be for the mentally and physically disabled only, not for people who make bad choices and refuse to change.
And if a young girl is pregnant? No pre-natal care? No pregnancy assistance? Dr. Tiller thanks you I am sure.
Oh, don’t take the bait, Ben.
Mary has been throwing out red herrings since the beginning of the thread, because her on-point argument is a loser.
Ya shoulda bowed out gracefully, lady.
P.S. Not that I think her red herrings are any more logical, but she redefines the issue at will. It’s hard to hit a moving target.
You’re not too smart, are you Rage?
Mary, you’re the one that blew it on this thread!
HEY where did my post go!
This isn’t the first time I’ve noticed my posts missing, what gives with that?
It’s glitched political mom. I see it now and again too.
I will agree with Rage. I am a little surprised at Mary’s posts. Very judgemental.
It’d be great if employers would HIRE people who could do the work, but won’t because they don’t want their insurance premiums to go up. Try to get a job with even a minimal disability- aint easy.
“You’re not too smart, are you Rage?”
Oh, please, do elaborate, Mary.