Did you have a reason for double-posting that last bit? Just curious if you were trying to strengthen your report.

I never said the CS gas wasn’t the cause of the fire. I said “probably by his own hand and that of his minions.” So what was in the paragraph you posted could be true.

The other point of yours that I question has to do with the local authorities who “could have arrested Koresh at any time with out any problems.” I’m assuming this was prior to the arrival of the ATF. Now, I’m not up on the level of law enforcement and who can and can’t do what, but I question what the local authorities would have done. It is the ATF’s job to do what they did, not the job of the local authorities, at least as I understand it.

It was all bad. It was horrendous, but the point is, a rabid “religious nut” (my words) barricaded himself and his followers (possibly some against their will) in a compound loaded with illegal arms and ammunition. And not just a little of it. (A million rounds wouldn’t be a little, would it?) Bad decisions were made by some who were responsible, but everyone wants to blame the ATF, the FBI, Janet Reno, Clinton, and even Bush 1. Where’s the outrage against David Koresh?

The local cops down in Waco stated that they could have arrested Koresh at any time with out any problems. They said that he often went jogging and into town alone, and unarmed.

[taken from the editorial, Wall Street Journal, 15 May 1995]Federal officials after the fire insisted that the CS gas was nonflammable. But, according to U.S. Army manuals, there is a significant risk of flammability from the CS gas pariculates. U.S. Army Field Manual FM-21-27 states: “Warning: when using the dry agent CS-1, do not discharge indoors. Accumulating dust may explode when exposed to spark or open flame.”

-What effect did the CS gas pumped into the compound for six hours have on the women and children? While Reno recently characterized the gas as a mere “irritant,” TECHNOLOGY REVIEW noted in October 1988 that CS gas is far more potent than another widely used tear gas. CS Gas can kill: United Nation officials estimated that the use of CS gas resulted in 44 fatalities in the Gaza Strip in 1988, as well as more than 1,200 injuries and numerous miscarriages. – WSJ Editorial, 15 May 1995——————————————————————————–What did the FBI hope to accomplish by gassing the Davidians?FBI Deputy Director Floyd Clarke told Congress nine days after the fire that the FBI’s plan was to “immediately and totally immerse the place in gas, and throw in flash-bangs which would disorient them and cause people to…think, if not rationally, at least instinctively, and perhaps give them a way to come out.” Flash-bang grenades temporarily blind people and, according to a U.S. Army Field Manual, “Generally, persons reacting to CS are incapable of executing organized and concerted actions and excessive exposure to CS may make them incapable of vacating the area.” – WSJ Editorial, 15 May 1995

-What effect did the CS gas pumped into the compound for six hours have on the women and children? While Reno recently characterized the gas as a mere “irritant,” TECHNOLOGY REVIEW noted in October 1988 that CS gas is far more potent than another widely used tear gas. CS Gas can kill: United Nation officials estimated that the use of CS gas resulted in 44 fatalities in the Gaza Strip in 1988, as well as more than 1,200 injuries and numerous miscarriages. – WSJ Editorial, 15 May 1995

Viva La Revolucion Blanco!!!

In the 41 days the FBI was at the Branch Davidian compound, they never fired a shot. Koresh wanted to go out in a blaze of glory, and that’s what he did, probably by his own hand and that of his minions. Some people and children got out, although not many. Most were shot by Koresh’s men or shot themselves. If they didn’t, and they didn’t leave, they burned in that fire.

The FBI waited 41 days, while Koresh played games with the negotiators, promising to do one thing if they let him do something, over and over. Advisors to Reno said to wait him out, but after over a month, the decision was made to take action. And still the FBI didn’t fire a shot. Why was HRT there? To save the hostages. Were these people being held against their will? You decide.

When the FBI arrived…”The rules of engagement–the conditions under which we could use our weapons–stipulated that we could return fire only if we had visually identified specific human targets and determened that they posed an imminent threat to the FBI agents inside the perimeter. Seeing muzzle flash from a window in the early morning darkness might tell us where to look for a shooter but it would not, in itself, be enough to shoot at. We needed unmistakable identification and a clearly defined threat.”

David Karesh got what he wanted–his name down in history. If he had surrendered, who would remember him?

After the fire, the FBI went into the compound…”Everywhere, literally everywhere, I could reach out and touch a weapon. AR-15 barrels in rows, AK-47 receivers, bipod-mounted machine guns, handguns, the two big Barretts [there's your .50 caliber guns]. Boxes filled with ammunition in numbers I couldn’t even estimate. I walked up to photograph the concrete bunker that stood above everything else in the rubble. Empty bullet casings filled the room almost to my waist. I later learned there were so many rounds, investigators had to weigh them to approximate numbers. They said it was more than a million.”

Clinton fired William Sessions, the head of the FBI and appointed by Reagan in 1987, in 1993.

Are you aware that vendors sold t-shirts and memorabilia outside the compound? Maybe the media should take some of the blame for this disaster, too.

Seriously, you guys, especially those of you who are serious gun-lovers, should read Whitcomb’s book. It’s mentioned early on in the article RA posted the link to.

From comments in the book, I don’t think Whitcomb was a Clinton proponent. His view of his time spent at Waco was not political. He did his job, although he didn’t agree with all the decisions made. He especially wanted to get those children out of there.

It sometimes takes some screwups for changes to be made. Sessions did a lousy job. Reno seemed to do the best she could, considering what she had been handed. Could it have been better? Probably, but hindsight is 20/20.

And ultimatly my point wasn’t about Waco. It was criticism of the tendancy of far too many here to smear opponents by lumping them with the extremist nuts in their “wing.” Most commonly, that is a tactic used by lumping Christians and/or conservatives with Phelps. It’s a BS tactic, of course. But it’s routinely seen here.

Both sides engage in it. And it’s wrong, on both sides; it just leaves us more divided and with both sides smelling of &$^@.

My main point was in rebuttal to all those Clinton-haters (notably Paul) who want to tar him 100% with the Waco fiasco. I probably over-reacted to Paul’s Clinton-bashing.

BTW – you make a very good point about stupidity vs duplicity.

Ben, Paul, etc.: WHY, oh why, are those of you on both sides on the political aisle working so hard to tar each other with the lunatics on both sides?

C’mon. There are nuts and whackos on both sides of the political aisle. Left and Right. And neither care about the rights of others, only their own views and their own brand of conspiracy lunacy. Both are willing to be violent. There’s plenty of idiocy to go around. Watching Ben and Paul attempt to hang the extremists on both sides around each other’s necks is pointless. That’s KFG-style hyperbole, as an earlier writer noted. It’s not just “painting with the broad brush,” it’s slinging the &@*#. And both of you are just getting more &%@# on yourselves.

Waco? A bureaucratic screw-up. It wouldn’t have mattered one iota which party was in power; the institutional government (like ATF) operates on its own, largely separated from political control, especially during a transition period. Wanna blame somebody? Blame the situation commanders who decided to lay seige to a compound rather than make an arrest when Koresh was alone. Of course, they may have considered that arresting Koresh in town could well have ended in a firefight in town, with lots of civilians at risk, and decided it was safer out at the rural compound. It probably seemed at the time to be a reasonable choice. They were wrong, as it turned out, and Koresh went down just as he wanted, a martyr in his own mind taking his followers with him. Could the commanders have foreseen that? Maybe, but a shootout in town was also a likely scenario that they wanted to avoid.

But, Ben, a conspiracy? A BUSH conspiracy? Sure. Bush put the Mafia on the grassy knoll, too. And faked the moon landing. Please.

Don’t remember who said it, but it’s generally true: never ascribe to duplicity what can be explained by stupidity. I’m sure that quote’s not right; somebody out there’s probably got the right quote, and author. And it’s true.

What a ways to start a Monday. Coffee and paul. heheheheheheheheh

Better than the funny papers.

Paul? I think you are some kind of legend only in your own mind. I guess that is why you stay on that high horse and keep thinking we know or CARE who you are?

Heheheheh. He thinks he is some kind of famous hero? Never heard of him. Musta just been a kansas wingnut news exclusive.

hee hee hee. You think you have some kind of influence? Notoriaty? hee hee hee heee. I hardly think being involved in the violence you seem to think is good is NOT good in the minds of most people. Well, most except in kansas.

Once again, take a good look at paul. The TRUE face of kansas? hehehe. arent we so proud….

Paul.F.Rosell. A legend in the wingnut fifteen minutes hall of fame. I assure you boy, NO ONE knows or cares who you are.

You are wrong; Koresh frequently went jogging by himself and into town on a regular schedule. They could have nabbed him, alone and unarmed at anytime!

V.L.R.B!!

Uh, no. Not according to those who were there. He kept a child near him, at all times. He kept the compound, inside and out, in darkness to keep it harder to see him. And the place of full of guns and ammo.

“The kids at Waco, as well as many of the adults, were little more than hostages to Koresh.”

Now, THAT I’ll agree with.

The only Western tradition accepted by the political, intellectual, and economic elites of the West is the Enlightenment. For American political and economic elites, this largely means the British (or Anglo-American) Enlightenment, with its emphasis on the liberty of individuals, institutionalized in liberal democracy and free markets. For European political, intellectual, and economic elites (and for the American intellectual elite located in academia and the media), this largely means the French (or Continental) Enlightenment, with its emphasis on the rationalism of elites, institutionalized in bureaucratic authority and the credentialed society. Together, these elites promote the contemporary version of the Enlightenment project. They are intent upon imposing it around the world — and upon eliminating any vestige of the other Western traditions — the classical and the Christian.

The rejection of the Christian faith by Western elites does not mean that they have rejected all faiths. Despite the claims and conceits of rationalists and scientists, every human being believes in some things that cannot be proven (and therefore cannot be established by reason) or that cannot be seen (and therefore cannot be established by science) and that therefore have to be taken on faith. Ever since the coming of the Enlightenment, Western elites have adhered to a variety of secularist and universalist faiths, which in effect have been religions without God. Kenneth Minogue has identified these as (1) the idea of progress, (2) Marxism, and (3) “Olympianism,” which is the contemporary belief that an enlightened intellectual elite can and should bring about “human betterment … on a global scale by forcing the peoples of the world into a single community based on the universal enjoyment of appropriate human rights.” As Minogue demonstrates, each of these secular religions has identified Christianity as its enemy. Indeed, the Olympianism that dominates in our time sees the very idea of Western civilization itself to be an obstacle to its grand global and universalist project.

The universalist ideology of Olympian elites is largely consistent with, and perhaps reflective of, the expanding interests of global corporations. During the first half of the Cold War, American corporations found their most attractive business opportunities to be in Europe or other Western countries. During the second half of the Cold War, however, American multinational corporations expanded into non-Western regions. Finally, with the collapse of the Soviet bloc, the preferred arena for American multinational corporation became the entire world. For multinational, now global, corporations, it became important to be identified with ideals that appeared to be progressive and global, even inevitable and universal, and not to be identified with ideas and ideals that were Western and traditional.

The result of these developments has been the redefinition of the ideal economic arena from Western to global, of the ideal society from Western to multicultural, and the ideal political system from Western to transnational. There would be a universal empire — except that it will be called global governance, and a universal religion — except that it will be called human rights.

http://www.grecoreport.com/western_civilization_and_christianity1.htm

I agree that civil rights belong to all of us. That is why I was so incensed at seeing a quadraplegic veteran beaten by the police and people like you “convinced he was guilty of a crime.” Or having a fractured left orbit and people like you “convinced I was guilty of a crime.”

“There is a fascist, hateful group on the right, of significant size, that cares not one bit about civil rights, as long as someone you disagree with is being tarred and feathered (or killed.)” I know, I have met them and seen them in action.

My frustration on this Blog has been with people who seem to want to give “rights” to terrorists. Terrorists who, I don’t believe, are granted the same rights as non-combatants under our Constitution.

I try to avoid stereotyping and lumping people into groups they don’t really agree with. However, it is only natural for me to recall how everyone heard CBS News’ Scott Pelly make his accusations against me on national news, and how all the liberals out there, with their “innocent until proven guilty” mantra, were convinced that I was guilty of a crime.It is also natural for me to recall the supposedly “pro civil rights” left marching with signs that said, “Remember Waco,” “Bring in the ATF” and “Janet Reno, take care of OUR religious nuts” at various times after Waco.

There is a fascist, hateful group on the left, of significant size, that cares not one bit about civil rights, as long as someone you disagree with is being tarred and feathered (or killed.)

As far as the Waco ATF screw up, I still understand the Federal jockying for funding and the need for various agencies to grab headlines. I still believe the motivation for the ATF raid was to grab headlines, and to secure Congressional funding.

Koresh could have been easily detained, or shot if he resisted, away from all those children.

Basic police procedure is to avoid the taking of hostages and to seperate armed criminals from innocents when possible, isn’t it?

The kids at Waco, as well as many of the adults, were little more than hostages to Koresh.

If not then you really don’t have anything to complain about compared to the treatment anti-war VietNam veterans and others received.

If you’d like an interesting look into both Ruby Ridge and Waco, I suggest the following book, written by an FBI agent who was at both.

COLD ZEROInside the FBI Hostage Rescue Teamby Special Agent Christopher Whitcomb