Prophets: They sure don’t make ‘em like they used to. A case in point is Warren Jeffs, the polygamist sect leader from Utah who was arrested Monday in a Cadillac Escalade filled with cell phones, laptops and $54,000 in cash. He also had a supply of wigs — presumably indispensable in discerning God’s will for his 10,000 followers.
Then again, if he were really the prophet he and his followers claim, he might have seen this coming.
While it’s easy to make light of con men like Jeffs when they’re finally called to account, it’s worth remembering the damage such men can wreak on the credulous, given enough time and insularity. Jeffs, for example, is charged as an accomplice to child rape by mandating marriages between older men and girls as young as 13.
Hard to imagine churchgoing adults embracing that sort of thing. But it was hard to imagine Jonestown and Waco, too.
Posted by Dave Knadler
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76 Comments
If Jeffs had just had the presence of mind to own a gazillion guns, the wing nuts would be all over his defense.
It was reported on CNN that Jeffs never let his followers own a television or a computer, yet he’s caught with laptops and cell phones. He censors his followers from listening to any music besides his own singing. He marries adolescent girls to much older polygamous men. He proclaims himself a Prophet of God, an honest man, yet he was caught with disguises and wigs in his luxury SUV. He has destroyed the lives of thousands of followers by scaring them that if they don’t follow his belief system then they are all gonna burn in hell. (Does this sound familiar to you, Terry Fox?) He styles himself as a lover of God and prioritizing the Gospel, yet he was caught with over 50 thousand dollars in cash in his CADILLAC ESCALADE… I guess religion is big business these days, isn’t it Joe Wright? I can’t wait for the day when God destroys you heretics for making a mockery of Jesus Christ!
A lot of religious nuts throw God’s name around to justify their own perverse lives. The sad part is though these nuts always seem to get people to follow them. And the scary part is, this is just one of them that we know about. How many others are around the country doing the same sicko stuff?
If you want to understand how people blindly follow cult leaders like Jeff, just look at your own blind cult following of political parties. Republican or Democrat it doesn’t matter.
How many people worship and follow people like Howard Dean and the like. Nodding their head “yes” to everything they say and giving tons of money to them. It’s the same thing.
Mr.C though is a dirty old man himself. The John Mark Karrs effect and going to third world countries to pick up his mail order bride only to dump them after a few years and go pick up another one. You’re the one to talk. Gun Nuts? When you work with Phil Journey. Strange!
Oh shit! Mr.C just got DISSED!!!
Jeffs….Jim Jones….David Koresh…Fred Phelps…Terry Fox..Terry Wright
They all have legions of loyal followers. They all twist Scripture to suit their agenda. They all are into controlling others behavior, thoughts and lives.
Religious freedom was a great idea once..but the wackos are abusing that right.
Ooops. Correction, Joe Wright.
Warren Jeffs was stupid to come out of his compounds. He should have known that had he just barricaded himself inside, he could allow molestation of children for the rest of his life- because so many complained about Waco- the feds would never storm his compound. He would have been totally safe to abuse kids forever.
Raptor, have you been attending the kfg school of crazy hyperbole? Actually, you have exceeded her. She would include Fox and Wright in with Phelps. Now you include them with criminals and murderers. Perhaps just a little over the top?
Let’s hand it to Warren Jeffs, he’s finally a person who actually filled his SUV up with little children. Too bad he was married to most of them.
At least we didn’t send Janet Reno in to “protect” the kids by starting a gunfight with Jeffs.
The Federal Government, mostly the ATF, made huge mistakes at WACO.
The left likes to point out, in every foreign war, that innocent civilians die. Unfortunately, in war, that is hard to avoid. One reason that the US spends so much on our military is that “smart weapons,” that more accurately hit their targets, are very expensive compared to “dumb bombs” that are simply dropped at random over civilian population centers. Even so, the left rarely details how, with technology, civilian deaths have dropped dramatically during wartime. (Dresden anyone?)
However, in the Waco case, Koresh frequently went into town on his own, unescorted. There was no reason to provoke a confrontation at the compound. Koresh could very easily have been arrested, or at least confronted and killed, if he did not cooperate, outside the compound.
Of course, the ATF was looking for political points and funding and wanted a headline grabbing PR piece.
So what if the Federal Government has absolutely NO jurisdiction over child abuse cases?
So what if the Federal Government has absolutely NO jurisdiction over child custody cases. (Unless, of course, one of the parents is from Cuba.)
Waco was a police-state warning. A warning that the left can be as prone to police abuse as the right.
By the way, I once saw a group of “pro-choice” or “pro-abortion” protesters, right after the Waco disaster, carrying signs that said:”Remember Waco.”
It was pretty clear that they wanted their political opponents dead!
And remember that Waco wss one the reasons Timothy McVeigh gave as his justification for OKC bombing.
People will believe what they want to believe as long as it makes them feel superior to someone else.
So some religious nuts who follow David Christ, or was that Jesus Koresh, set themselves on fire. The only crime there is they didn’t have a burn permit. They are all up in heaven now doing bong hits 4 jesus.
DougYou should never call anyone a fascist or hate-monger if you think the children at Waco deserved to die.Waco was a government created disaster.Waco did not have to happen.That you lump all religious people together is sad.It is a form of bigotry Doug.
CR, have you ever justified the actions of Islamic Terrorists based on some perceived sin or slight of the West, in the past? Do you believe that the terrorist actions of Palestinians is justified because of the legal actions of Israel in protecting itself?For the record, Tim McVeigh was wrong and the ATF in Waco was also wrong.McVeigh died for his misguided, sick cause.The ATF got off way too easy, but nobody, absolutely nobody in law enforcement thinks that the ATF did a good job at Waco.The FBI didn’t do much better. Why did the FBI take over in the first place, however, if the ATF was doing such a fine job?
Paul,
You fail to mention the atrocity at Ruby Ridge. Did you not mention it because that happened on the watch of the traitor, shrub sr.?
Viva La Revolucion Blanco!!
Oh for pete’s sake, Outlander. Get off your high horse. Did you bother to READ my comparisons? How they each have large groups of very loyal followers. Any argument there? How about how all of them try to control behavior. Can you find fault with that? Or how all of them try to tell others how to live their lives. Those were the comparisons I made, Outlander.
Next time why not try reading the actual post before criticizing?
Not to mention how the all, criminals and zealots alike, use the Bible to justify their actions. Can you disagree with that, Outlander?
Ian
Paul is a depthless, uprincipled shill. He doesn’t care if the government busts some chops as long as it is the “right” government.
raptor
I feel for ya I really do.
The GOP has become the perfect marriage between big buisiness and the religious right. They want ya either singing with the choir or loading the collection plate. Outside that they stand not much anywhere. Well except maybe outside your bedroom window.
“Do you believe that the terrorist actions of Palestinians is justified because of the legal actions of Israel in protecting itself?”
Paul, the continued occupation is illegal. The Palestinians have known nothing but bondage and brutality for two generations. Their ‘leaders’ didn’t teach them to hate their oppressors; Israel did.
BenPalestinian childrens television used to run propaganda teaching kids that Jews were animals and could not be trusted.I don’t think that Israel has ever run such trash about Arabs.
IanOf course I believe Ruby Ridge was wrong.
JR and IanThis post is about religious extremists isn’t it?I don’t think Ruby Ridge qualifies, really.
Paul – Israel controls the Palestinian media. Palestinian children see Israeli soldiers and militants every day; they learn more from that than from anything else. They see Israeli artillary blow up their homes and see their playmates blown to bits by artillary and cluster bombs. They see other playmates killed when they pick up unexploded cluster bomblets left all over Palestine (and now all over south Lebanon)
Under whose watch was the original raid at waco initiated?
Ben, the ATF under Clinton and Reno ran the original Waco raid.You are wrong about Palestinian media being controlled by Israel.
“The Palestinians, along with most other Arabs and Moslems, are single-mindedly focused on the destruction of Israel, to “wipe it off the map.” If Israel were pressured into ending the “occupation” of the territories, it would not bring peace. On the contrary, it would bring about bloody warfare, just as in Gaza and Lebanon, and could well be the end of Israel. Those who advocate the ending of the “occupation” do so either out of ignorance or because they have a death wish for Israel.”
The Israelis were considered “occupiers” when, after a war of extermination against them, they prevailed and came into possession of these territories. The oldest rule of warfare is that to the victor belong the spoils. Do people expect France to return Alsace-Lorraine to Germany? Do they expect the Czech Republic or Poland to return the German territories awarded to them after Germany’s defeat in World War II? Of course not!
Israel, unilaterally and in order to appease the Palestinians, the United States and world opinion, vacated Gaza and evicted thousands of Israeli families and abandoned their homes, institutions, extensive agricultural installations, and valuable infrastructure. Not a single Israeli citizen, not a single Israeli soldier, remains in Gaza. But, in the few months since it has abandoned that territory, Israel has been provoked to bloody warfare and has been subjected to daily attacks by Qassam rockets. It is only a matter of time until one of those devices will crash into a school or into a hospital causing untold casualties and destroying vital infrastructure.Destruction and almost civil war. Instead of using their newly won “liberty from occupation,” the Gazans have engaged in what is practically a bloody civil war and have destroyed most of their meager infrastructure. They have demolished and vandalized the valuable and extensive greenhouse installations that the Israelis had created, which could have been the basis for a prosperous agricultural economy and of substantial export income. But they focus their efforts and their energy on digging tunnels under the wall that separates them from Israel, in order to attack Israeli military, killing and kidnapping their soldiers, and thus bringing added misery upon themselves.
http://www.adl.org/main_Arab_World/arab_media_portrayal_jews.htm
http://www.zoa.org/2004/04/palestinian_aut_19.htm
http://www.likud.nl/extr362.html
Ben,You are naive.The Palestinian culture preaches hatred of Jews and the West.Israel does not preach hatred of Arabs or hatred of Islam.
BenYou are wrong, the Palestinians have their own media outlets. This one obviously isn’t run buy Israel.It advocates children killing Jews.No similar childrens TV show in Israel advocates Jews killing Moslems.By the way, I typed in “palestinian childrens Television” and I got loads of hits. 44,200 to be exact.That is a lot of hits for something (Palestinian TV) that you say does NOT exist!http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41091
“Once Islam is destroyed, as we arein the process of doing, there will be a tremendous problem between Judaism andChristianity, but that time is not now, but rather a ways in the future”. Raanan Gissin, (advisor to Ariel Sharon and member of the Kenesset)
Zionists say the darndest thigs, don’t they?
V.L.R.B!!
Ianquoting one person in Israel is not the same thing.Sure, there are nuts in every country.It is not the policy of Israel to advocate, on Israeli TV, the death of all Moslems.It is clearly a frequent message on Palestinian TV, even Childrens TV, to advocate the death of all Jews.
Religion is what’s wrong with this whole world, Christians, Muslims, etc, all have used their beliefs at one time or another to justify hatred, prejudice, intolerance, and persecution of their fellow man. No one has to take responsibility when they can blame it all on their god.How convenient.
WND is hardly a reliable source. Presumably this would have been broadcast from outside Israeli control (i.e. outside Palestine); although eprhaps beamed to inside the occupied camps. Inside Israeli-controlled territory the IDF has shown that they will blow up braoadcasters they don’t like.
The fact remains Paul, AS YOU KNOW, Palestinian children are constantly reminded of their status as serfs by Israeli soldiers and militants who rule over them and kill their playmates at will.
Israelis don’t need to advocate it on television. They practice it every day in the illegal occupation. And I have seen a headline on Hatzofeh calling for the IDF to annihilate the entire population.
Hope I dont offend. In my opinion the Mormon church is just a cult that somehow got formalized along the way.
Warren Jeffs proves that
No Paul, I am NOT naive. I am also not brainwashed my WND and the terrorist Stern Gang as you are (the sources you quote).
Two generations have grown up under jack-booted oppression. THAT is where they learn hate.
As for waco, the original raid was launched only one month after inauguration. The wheels had already been set in motion by Bush 1. Janet Reno was NOT AG on February 28 when the original raid took place. The head of Treasury (where ATF is) was a holdover from the Bush administration. The fact is that Bush set it all in motion to explode on his successor as revenge for unseating him. ALL of the people involved in the original Waco raid were veterans of Bush’s Ruby Ridge attack.
Just like Bush 2 will leave the Iraq disaster for someone else to deal with.
“The fact is that Bush set it all in motion to explode on his successor as revenge for unseating him.”
Posted by: Ben Huie | September 02, 2006 at 08:09 PM
Ben, do you have a sorce for this statement??
• March 11 – Janet Reno is confirmed by the United States Senate and sworn-in the next day, becoming the first female Attorney General of the United States.• April 19- A 51-day stand-off at the Branch Davidian compound near Waco, Texas, ends with a fire that kills 76 people, including David Koresh.
They should throw him in a state prison, not some cumfy federal penitentiary and give the entire prisoner population the lowdown on how he ruined thousands of people’s lives by tearing apart their families! He won’t last the first day.
All prior to March 11:
“SUNDAY, FEBRUARY 28, 1993:At about 9:30 a.m. agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms attempt to execute arrest and search warrants against David KORESH and the Branch Davidian compound. Gunfire erupts. Four ATF agents are killed and 16 are wounded. An undetermined number of Davidians are killed and injured. Within a few hours, the FBI becomes the lead agency for resolving the standoff. Jeff JAMAR is named the on-site commander. By the afternoon, advance units of the FBI’s Hostage Rescue Team (HRT) arrive, and telephone conversations are under way between KORESH, Steve SCHNEIDER, and Wayne MARTIN on one side and the ATF’s Jim CAVANAUGH and Waco Police Lt. Larry LYNCH on the other. KORESH discloses that he has been wounded in the hip and left wrist. KORESH is allowed to broadcast his religious teachings on Dallas radio KRLD and does a CNN telephone interview. Michael SCHROEDER, a Branch Davidian, is killed while he tries to return to the main building. Texas Rangers begin an investigation but are barred by the FBI from continuing. At about 5:30 p.m., JAMAR arrives at Waco and chooses Byron SAGE of the FBI as chief negotiator. President CLINTON follows events closely throughout the day.[ Scruggs 1, 9, 21, 22, 24, 229, 236, 241]
MONDAY, MARCH 1:In the early morning, Acting Attorney General Stuart GERSON gives an update to CLINTON, who implicitly endorses a negotiated solution and asks to be advised if there is any change in strategy. Larry POTTS at FBI headquarters in Washington and JAMAR in Waco are in command. Negotiations continue, and over the course of the day, 10 children are sent out of the compound. By 5 p.m., the FBI takes control with a fully functioning command post. FBI agents in armored vehicles deploy to the compound’s perimeter. KORESH becomes extremely agitated when the armored vehicles move closer and when his phone line is cut except for outgoing calls to the negotiators. At least twice, KORESH says suicide is not being contemplated. CLINTON and FBI Director William SESSIONS talk about how to handle crisis. SESSIONS favors “waiting strategy,” and CLINTON approves this tactic. [ Scruggs 9, 27, 28, 29, 30, 126, 237]
TUESDAY, MARCH 2:Into the wee hours the negotiations continue. In the early morning, KORESH makes a one-hour audio tape of his religious teachings, adding a preamble promising to surrender upon the national broadcast of tape. At 1:30 p.m., the tape is broadcast over the Christian Broadcasting Network. At 5:58 p.m, the word is relayed to negotiations from KORESH that God had spoken to him and had told him to wait. GERSON states that the strategy is “to talk them out, no matter how long it took.” CLINTON calls GERSON and agrees to deploy military vehicles for safety purposes. [ Scruggs 32-35, 238, 239]”
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/timeline.html
Reno and others screwed up big time later on but the die had been cast. Face it Rightie – there is no way Clinton, who was woefully inefficient in getting his team in place, had been there long enough to have dome the planning for the raid. That pre-existed his inauguration.
Will – remember, according to Warren Jeffs, he is speaking the Word of God and you, by your statements, are mocking God.
(sarcasm off)
“You should never call anyone a fascist or hate-monger if you think the children at Waco deserved to die.Waco was a government created disaster.Waco did not have to happen.That you lump all religious people together is sad.It is a form of bigotry Doug.”
I don’t know what fascism has to do with this but you seldom make sense. I have no problem with your messiah David Koresh killing himself to become a martyr. It’s his decision. He killed others in the name of religion, just like your buddy Bush does and you support him for doing that. When Clinton came along and tried to get him to stop you said Clinton was wrong. So the question is, why are you such a hypocrite?
BTW, I never said his killing of others was okay, I was saying he needed a burn permit to do it.
Ben,Remember that my faith in Christianity is not dependant on the actions of its practitioners!
What do you take me for? An Evangelical?
(sarcasm off)
Joe,You wouldn’t like me when I’m angry.But I guess you’re such a young pup you don’t remember the way the NRA tried to turn Vern Campbell into a martyr (that was the so-called David Koresh’s REAL name).So why did he change it? Well, if you’re a god, I suppose you don’t want your followers ending their prayers with “know what I mean Vern?”But that’s another reference that’s waaaay over your infantile mind, isn’t it?
raptor: You paint with a broad brush. By placing Fox and Wright in the company of criminals and murderers, you tar them without proving anything you write. IMHO, it is unfair, and intellectually dishonest to do so.
Suppose you don’t like Bill Clinton. You decide to associate Clinton and Hitler saying that they were both white males, who have read the Bible, who tried to influence people by what they said. That is true. But why make that comparison? Well, it’s obvious.
The fact is that Bush set it all in motion to explode on his successor as revenge for unseating him.”
Posted by: Ben Huie | September 02, 2006 at 08:09 PM
Ben, do you have a sorce for this statement??
My question, Ben, do you have any backup for your statement that “as revenge for unseating him.”
I really didn’t think that even “Dad” Bush was THAT smart.
RA–
The standoff in the Branch Vern-ian Compound didn’t “end in a fire.”
The suicidal maniacs started a fire. Goes along with Koresh raping people’s wives and children.
RA – I let the timeline speak for itself. My interpretation of motive was just that. Do you have a better explanation of why Bush 1 left that ticking time bomb?
Well, Ben, you give Bush One a lot more credit than I do.
I don’t think he was smart enough to plan that even if he wanted to.
Using that logic then the Bay Of Pigs fiasco was set in motion to blow in Kennedy’s face for tromping Nixon.
Let’s face it, the whole event was a screw up from start to finish.
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms uas stupid to attempt to execute arrest and search warrants against David Koresh at the Branch Davidian compound. They should have arrested him on the many occasions when he went to town. David Koresh is the person responsible for the deaths.
BenI always took you as naive, even having a bit of a death wish in your “blame America First” mentality.Until now, however, and your post above claiming that Bush 1 “left” Waco as a trap for Clinton, I never took you as a conspiracy kook.Janet Reno did take “full responsibility” for Waco did she not?
Yes Paul she did. And she made very bad decisions in the latter stages of the siege. However, AS YOU KNOW she was not AG when the original raid took place.
As for you I have always considered to to be a GOP Party flak. The view stands confirmed.
By the way Ben;Don’t you know me better than to try and make me an apologist for Federal law enforcement, under any administration?You will recall that I was once falsely arrested by Federal Marshals while Bush 1 was in office.Part of the case against me, believe it or not, was to claim that I was never “arrested” so I somehow had no case to appeal.(This was a civil lawsuit brought by abortionist George Tiller, illegally, under the KKK act. It was entirely orchastrated by Judge Kelly. In fact, I heard a Federal Marshal talking to Judge Kelly on the phone, in a van, counting the number of “prisoners” he had taken already. Kelly wanted 12 in the Jury box by the 5′ O’clock news, our time, so it would hit the Eastern TV media as well, on a Friday.)Federal Judge Patrick Kelly was an incompetent tyrant, legally, but a savy media gadfly.My point, of coarse, if you scroll up to the beginning of my posts in this thread, is that the “right” as well as the “left” can be guilty of police abuse, violation of civil rights, and illegal police action.I have paid my dues on this subject.I won in court.Case closed!(I know that federal and local police arent perfect, but I would rather have them, with all their faults, than to leave us unprotected.)
In that case Paul ,aybe you are simply increadibly naive in your accusations against Clinton and defending Bush for the original raid.
Paul, I too have paid my dues. In my 59 years I have simply experienced too much to be naive or to have a death wish as your bullshit claims. And, I agree with you that, with all their faults, I would prefer to have our police than not to have them.
I got upset with Bill Clinton for letting Janet Reno take “full responsibility” for Waco. Where was he? I think that she took a fall for Bill.
A very good link on the Branch Davidian fiasco.http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/not_guilty/koresh/1.html
Hmm we are learning more about prollie Paul. I’ll go ya one further Ben. More than a political flak, I have come to regard Paul as something akin to what I might find on my shoes after a stroll through a pig lot. The further I “stroll” the worse it gets.
On that I might agree with you RA. I think Clinton should have seen that the ENTIRE time line was made public – particularly the planning and staging of the raid – the period prior to Feb 28. And the role of “holdovers” in the whole fiasco.
I’m not even going to bother with taking sides on this. There are wackos in all groups. It only takes one to make them all look crazy.
If you’d like an interesting look into both Ruby Ridge and Waco, I suggest the following book, written by an FBI agent who was at both.
COLD ZEROInside the FBI Hostage Rescue Teamby Special Agent Christopher Whitcomb
Hey Paul – when you were so wrongfully arrested were you beaten? Any broken bones? Denied medical care for two days in jail?
If not then you really don’t have anything to complain about compared to the treatment anti-war VietNam veterans and others received.
Can we agree on one thing?Civil rights belong to all of us, they aren’t assigned to us based on religious affiliation, popularity of our cause, or who is in the White House at the time.
My frustration on this Blog has been with people who seem to want to give “rights” to terrorists. Terrorists who, I don’t believe, are granted the same rights as non-combatants under our Constitution.
I try to avoid stereotyping and lumping people into groups they don’t really agree with. However, it is only natural for me to recall how everyone heard CBS News’ Scott Pelly make his accusations against me on national news, and how all the liberals out there, with their “innocent until proven guilty” mantra, were convinced that I was guilty of a crime.It is also natural for me to recall the supposedly “pro civil rights” left marching with signs that said, “Remember Waco,” “Bring in the ATF” and “Janet Reno, take care of OUR religious nuts” at various times after Waco.
There is a fascist, hateful group on the left, of significant size, that cares not one bit about civil rights, as long as someone you disagree with is being tarred and feathered (or killed.)
As far as the Waco ATF screw up, I still understand the Federal jockying for funding and the need for various agencies to grab headlines. I still believe the motivation for the ATF raid was to grab headlines, and to secure Congressional funding.
Koresh could have been easily detained, or shot if he resisted, away from all those children.
Basic police procedure is to avoid the taking of hostages and to seperate armed criminals from innocents when possible, isn’t it?
The kids at Waco, as well as many of the adults, were little more than hostages to Koresh.
” it is only natural for me to recall how everyone heard CBS News’ Scott Pelly make his accusations against me on national news, and how all the liberals out there, with their “innocent until proven guilty” mantra, were convinced that I was guilty of a crime.” – sorry Paul, I missed that, never saw it on CBS News.
I agree that civil rights belong to all of us. That is why I was so incensed at seeing a quadraplegic veteran beaten by the police and people like you “convinced he was guilty of a crime.” Or having a fractured left orbit and people like you “convinced I was guilty of a crime.”
“There is a fascist, hateful group on the right, of significant size, that cares not one bit about civil rights, as long as someone you disagree with is being tarred and feathered (or killed.)” I know, I have met them and seen them in action.
Although the forces assaulting the Christian tradition have operated throughout the West, the effects have been different in Europe and America. In Europe, the Christian churches had been bound up with the traditional political and social authorities. As these authorities declined with the spread of liberal democracy and free markets — the working out of the democratic and the commercial spirits — the Christian churches declined along with them. By contrast, in America the large number of different denominations (a distinctively American term), which were independent of the state and each other, meant that almost from the origins of the U. S. there was a kind of religious democracy and market. If a particular church seemed to be bound up with a discredited and declining political or social authority, Christians in America could easily move to a new church, while keeping the essentials of the Christian religion. This helps to explain why today Christianity is much more vital in America than it is in Europe. The American elites have rejected it, but the Christian religion is meaningful and central to large sections of the population..
The only Western tradition accepted by the political, intellectual, and economic elites of the West is the Enlightenment. For American political and economic elites, this largely means the British (or Anglo-American) Enlightenment, with its emphasis on the liberty of individuals, institutionalized in liberal democracy and free markets. For European political, intellectual, and economic elites (and for the American intellectual elite located in academia and the media), this largely means the French (or Continental) Enlightenment, with its emphasis on the rationalism of elites, institutionalized in bureaucratic authority and the credentialed society. Together, these elites promote the contemporary version of the Enlightenment project. They are intent upon imposing it around the world — and upon eliminating any vestige of the other Western traditions — the classical and the Christian.
The rejection of the Christian faith by Western elites does not mean that they have rejected all faiths. Despite the claims and conceits of rationalists and scientists, every human being believes in some things that cannot be proven (and therefore cannot be established by reason) or that cannot be seen (and therefore cannot be established by science) and that therefore have to be taken on faith. Ever since the coming of the Enlightenment, Western elites have adhered to a variety of secularist and universalist faiths, which in effect have been religions without God. Kenneth Minogue has identified these as (1) the idea of progress, (2) Marxism, and (3) “Olympianism,” which is the contemporary belief that an enlightened intellectual elite can and should bring about “human betterment … on a global scale by forcing the peoples of the world into a single community based on the universal enjoyment of appropriate human rights.” As Minogue demonstrates, each of these secular religions has identified Christianity as its enemy. Indeed, the Olympianism that dominates in our time sees the very idea of Western civilization itself to be an obstacle to its grand global and universalist project.
The universalist ideology of Olympian elites is largely consistent with, and perhaps reflective of, the expanding interests of global corporations. During the first half of the Cold War, American corporations found their most attractive business opportunities to be in Europe or other Western countries. During the second half of the Cold War, however, American multinational corporations expanded into non-Western regions. Finally, with the collapse of the Soviet bloc, the preferred arena for American multinational corporation became the entire world. For multinational, now global, corporations, it became important to be identified with ideals that appeared to be progressive and global, even inevitable and universal, and not to be identified with ideas and ideals that were Western and traditional.
The result of these developments has been the redefinition of the ideal economic arena from Western to global, of the ideal society from Western to multicultural, and the ideal political system from Western to transnational. There would be a universal empire — except that it will be called global governance, and a universal religion — except that it will be called human rights.
http://www.grecoreport.com/western_civilization_and_christianity1.htm
BenI don’t disagree that there are forces on the right who don’t always believe in free speach.That seems to be a “given”, doesnt it? The Hollywood left and the media try to drum that into us all the time.My point is that your friends on the Left are just as guilty of this. There are at least as many abuses of freedom of speach and due process from the left, if not more.”First WACO, next Wichta”Ya, that was one of my favorites!
Well Paul, I must have missed your “First WACO, next Wichta” business. Was that before or after one of your shot Dr. Tiller? By the way, you never did tell me if you suffered any broken bones like I did at the hands of the LAPD for being anti-war. And WE never shot anyone!
“Koresh could have been easily detained, or shot if he resisted, away from all those children.”
Uh, no. Not according to those who were there. He kept a child near him, at all times. He kept the compound, inside and out, in darkness to keep it harder to see him. And the place of full of guns and ammo.
“The kids at Waco, as well as many of the adults, were little more than hostages to Koresh.”
Now, THAT I’ll agree with.
Sorry for the screwy typing. It’s Sunday. My brain is taking the day off. ;)
H=Just consider the huge amount of fuel that fed the fire. That was part of Koresh’s stash.
RD,
You are wrong; Koresh frequently went jogging by himself and into town on a regular schedule. They could have nabbed him, alone and unarmed at anytime!
V.L.R.B!!
What was Koresh doing with a 50 caliber machine gun in his compound?That’s the M-2 or “Ma Deuce” that I used in the military until I recently retired. That weapon has no business being in any civilian’s hands for any reason. The average perosn has no idea of it’s capacity for destruction.
Duck hunting gster. With Dick Cheney.
I find it odd that the right often tout themselves as the ultimate supporters of “Law and Order” Yet are perfectly OK with the fact that their heroes Koresh and Weaver murdered law enforcement officers. If Dumbass Randy Weaver would have given up when he was told to, his wife would still have her head. What do you think happens when the Police come to serve a warrant and you barricade yourselves with firearms what do think will happen. As for Koresh a child molester who thought he was Jesus, the world’s better of without him. And whats with the Rights hero worshipping of a child molester like Koresh, I thought that they were against that sort of behavior.
hee hee hee hee heee heeeeeeee…
What a ways to start a Monday. Coffee and paul. heheheheheheheheh
Better than the funny papers.
Paul? I think you are some kind of legend only in your own mind. I guess that is why you stay on that high horse and keep thinking we know or CARE who you are?
Heheheheh. He thinks he is some kind of famous hero? Never heard of him. Musta just been a kansas wingnut news exclusive.
hee hee hee. You think you have some kind of influence? Notoriaty? hee hee hee heee. I hardly think being involved in the violence you seem to think is good is NOT good in the minds of most people. Well, most except in kansas.
Once again, take a good look at paul. The TRUE face of kansas? hehehe. arent we so proud….
Paul.F.Rosell. A legend in the wingnut fifteen minutes hall of fame. I assure you boy, NO ONE knows or cares who you are.
AFter a stroll through these posts, I gotta ask:
Ben, Paul, etc.: WHY, oh why, are those of you on both sides on the political aisle working so hard to tar each other with the lunatics on both sides?
C’mon. There are nuts and whackos on both sides of the political aisle. Left and Right. And neither care about the rights of others, only their own views and their own brand of conspiracy lunacy. Both are willing to be violent. There’s plenty of idiocy to go around. Watching Ben and Paul attempt to hang the extremists on both sides around each other’s necks is pointless. That’s KFG-style hyperbole, as an earlier writer noted. It’s not just “painting with the broad brush,” it’s slinging the &@*#. And both of you are just getting more &%@# on yourselves.
Waco? A bureaucratic screw-up. It wouldn’t have mattered one iota which party was in power; the institutional government (like ATF) operates on its own, largely separated from political control, especially during a transition period. Wanna blame somebody? Blame the situation commanders who decided to lay seige to a compound rather than make an arrest when Koresh was alone. Of course, they may have considered that arresting Koresh in town could well have ended in a firefight in town, with lots of civilians at risk, and decided it was safer out at the rural compound. It probably seemed at the time to be a reasonable choice. They were wrong, as it turned out, and Koresh went down just as he wanted, a martyr in his own mind taking his followers with him. Could the commanders have foreseen that? Maybe, but a shootout in town was also a likely scenario that they wanted to avoid.
But, Ben, a conspiracy? A BUSH conspiracy? Sure. Bush put the Mafia on the grassy knoll, too. And faked the moon landing. Please.
Don’t remember who said it, but it’s generally true: never ascribe to duplicity what can be explained by stupidity. I’m sure that quote’s not right; somebody out there’s probably got the right quote, and author. And it’s true.
GMC – you might opt for grassy knoll and the moon landing; I don’t. But the time line speaks for itself. Planning for the raid preceeded the niauguration.
My main point was in rebuttal to all those Clinton-haters (notably Paul) who want to tar him 100% with the Waco fiasco. I probably over-reacted to Paul’s Clinton-bashing.
BTW – you make a very good point about stupidity vs duplicity.
You miss the point, Ben. Waco can’t be “blamed” on either party; the blame (if any; given the choices noted above, the REAL blame belongs squarely on Koresh) is with the commanders who made the decisions, and that bureaucracy exists independently of the political changes going on above. The reality: a decision was made that seemed at the time, given the situation, to be a reasonable one. It went bad. And the rest of us have the luxury of Monday-morning quarterbacking.
And ultimatly my point wasn’t about Waco. It was criticism of the tendancy of far too many here to smear opponents by lumping them with the extremist nuts in their “wing.” Most commonly, that is a tactic used by lumping Christians and/or conservatives with Phelps. It’s a BS tactic, of course. But it’s routinely seen here.
Both sides engage in it. And it’s wrong, on both sides; it just leaves us more divided and with both sides smelling of &$^@.
I agree GMC. I was just reacting; I have seen far too much Clinton-bashing over the years based on Waco.
We have seen far too much Clinton-bashing over a number of things… the guy got ripped for mis-using a cigar… come on… Bush misuses-uses an entire army and we get called unpatriotic and treasonous if we bash him…
Ian,When was Koresh out jogging the streets? Before the ATF? Before the FBI arrived? Or after?
In the 41 days the FBI was at the Branch Davidian compound, they never fired a shot. Koresh wanted to go out in a blaze of glory, and that’s what he did, probably by his own hand and that of his minions. Some people and children got out, although not many. Most were shot by Koresh’s men or shot themselves. If they didn’t, and they didn’t leave, they burned in that fire.
The FBI waited 41 days, while Koresh played games with the negotiators, promising to do one thing if they let him do something, over and over. Advisors to Reno said to wait him out, but after over a month, the decision was made to take action. And still the FBI didn’t fire a shot. Why was HRT there? To save the hostages. Were these people being held against their will? You decide.
When the FBI arrived…”The rules of engagement–the conditions under which we could use our weapons–stipulated that we could return fire only if we had visually identified specific human targets and determened that they posed an imminent threat to the FBI agents inside the perimeter. Seeing muzzle flash from a window in the early morning darkness might tell us where to look for a shooter but it would not, in itself, be enough to shoot at. We needed unmistakable identification and a clearly defined threat.”
David Karesh got what he wanted–his name down in history. If he had surrendered, who would remember him?
After the fire, the FBI went into the compound…”Everywhere, literally everywhere, I could reach out and touch a weapon. AR-15 barrels in rows, AK-47 receivers, bipod-mounted machine guns, handguns, the two big Barretts [there's your .50 caliber guns]. Boxes filled with ammunition in numbers I couldn’t even estimate. I walked up to photograph the concrete bunker that stood above everything else in the rubble. Empty bullet casings filled the room almost to my waist. I later learned there were so many rounds, investigators had to weigh them to approximate numbers. They said it was more than a million.”
Clinton fired William Sessions, the head of the FBI and appointed by Reagan in 1987, in 1993.
Are you aware that vendors sold t-shirts and memorabilia outside the compound? Maybe the media should take some of the blame for this disaster, too.
Seriously, you guys, especially those of you who are serious gun-lovers, should read Whitcomb’s book. It’s mentioned early on in the article RA posted the link to.
From comments in the book, I don’t think Whitcomb was a Clinton proponent. His view of his time spent at Waco was not political. He did his job, although he didn’t agree with all the decisions made. He especially wanted to get those children out of there.
It sometimes takes some screwups for changes to be made. Sessions did a lousy job. Reno seemed to do the best she could, considering what she had been handed. Could it have been better? Probably, but hindsight is 20/20.
RD,
The local cops down in Waco stated that they could have arrested Koresh at any time with out any problems. They said that he often went jogging and into town alone, and unarmed.
[taken from the editorial, Wall Street Journal, 15 May 1995]Federal officials after the fire insisted that the CS gas was nonflammable. But, according to U.S. Army manuals, there is a significant risk of flammability from the CS gas pariculates. U.S. Army Field Manual FM-21-27 states: “Warning: when using the dry agent CS-1, do not discharge indoors. Accumulating dust may explode when exposed to spark or open flame.”
-What effect did the CS gas pumped into the compound for six hours have on the women and children? While Reno recently characterized the gas as a mere “irritant,” TECHNOLOGY REVIEW noted in October 1988 that CS gas is far more potent than another widely used tear gas. CS Gas can kill: United Nation officials estimated that the use of CS gas resulted in 44 fatalities in the Gaza Strip in 1988, as well as more than 1,200 injuries and numerous miscarriages. – WSJ Editorial, 15 May 1995——————————————————————————–What did the FBI hope to accomplish by gassing the Davidians?FBI Deputy Director Floyd Clarke told Congress nine days after the fire that the FBI’s plan was to “immediately and totally immerse the place in gas, and throw in flash-bangs which would disorient them and cause people to…think, if not rationally, at least instinctively, and perhaps give them a way to come out.” Flash-bang grenades temporarily blind people and, according to a U.S. Army Field Manual, “Generally, persons reacting to CS are incapable of executing organized and concerted actions and excessive exposure to CS may make them incapable of vacating the area.” – WSJ Editorial, 15 May 1995
-What effect did the CS gas pumped into the compound for six hours have on the women and children? While Reno recently characterized the gas as a mere “irritant,” TECHNOLOGY REVIEW noted in October 1988 that CS gas is far more potent than another widely used tear gas. CS Gas can kill: United Nation officials estimated that the use of CS gas resulted in 44 fatalities in the Gaza Strip in 1988, as well as more than 1,200 injuries and numerous miscarriages. – WSJ Editorial, 15 May 1995
Viva La Revolucion Blanco!!!
Ian,
Did you have a reason for double-posting that last bit? Just curious if you were trying to strengthen your report.
I never said the CS gas wasn’t the cause of the fire. I said “probably by his own hand and that of his minions.” So what was in the paragraph you posted could be true.
The other point of yours that I question has to do with the local authorities who “could have arrested Koresh at any time with out any problems.” I’m assuming this was prior to the arrival of the ATF. Now, I’m not up on the level of law enforcement and who can and can’t do what, but I question what the local authorities would have done. It is the ATF’s job to do what they did, not the job of the local authorities, at least as I understand it.
It was all bad. It was horrendous, but the point is, a rabid “religious nut” (my words) barricaded himself and his followers (possibly some against their will) in a compound loaded with illegal arms and ammunition. And not just a little of it. (A million rounds wouldn’t be a little, would it?) Bad decisions were made by some who were responsible, but everyone wants to blame the ATF, the FBI, Janet Reno, Clinton, and even Bush 1. Where’s the outrage against David Koresh?