“This decision has nothing to do with science or FDA rules but has everything to do with politics,” Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla., said about the Food and Drug Administration’s decision to allow the Plan B contraceptive to be sold without a prescription to those 18 or older. Oh, please. Politics were why it took so long to approve Plan B. The FDA’s own scientists and panel of outside experts determined that Plan B was medically safe and should be available without a prescription (and to women younger than 18). But because some social conservatives such as Coburn think Plan B is a chemical abortion, which the medical community says it isn’t, FDA ignored science and kept delaying approval. What has happened is that the FDA finally ran out of excuses.
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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86 Comments
If the Social Conservatives have no problem with fertility clinics disposing of unused cells into the garbage, then why should they have a problem with Plan B?
Exactly CR.And they always ask the question:when exactly do you decide that this is a human?How about when the embryo attaches itself to the wall of the uterus?That is a very, very early stage that we all should be able to agree on.
With more available contraception the number of abortions will go down. No doubt when the statistics come around and show a lower number of abortions the anti-choice nuts that protested Plan B will take credit for lowering the number of abortions.
It’s a shame Susan Wagle killed a bill that would have required insurance companies to cover birth control. The contraception would have lowered abortion and Wagle is one of the most pro-abortion senators in Congress. So it makes me wonder why the anti-choice organizations support her in the election.
Anti-abortion groups are spinning the truth about the new over-the-counter use of birth control pills designed to prevent pregnancy, called plan B or the Morning After pills. To suggest that one who uses them will suffer from post-abortion syndrome is absurd. How can one have post-abortion syndrome if never even pregnant? Pregnancy is very traumatic to someone who isn’t willing or ready to be, that’s why there is a need for REAL crisis pregnancy centers. I have yet to hear of anyone needing mental health services for using birth control- except maybe where certain faiths have shamed them just for using it.In every study of Emergency Contraception that has come out in the past- if you read them carefully- they say ‘it is believed’ or “it is thought’ that these pills can work as in three ways; first to prevent fertilization, second to kill sperm, and third to create an environment that discourages implantation of a fertilized egg. So the scientists really didn’t know how the pills worked- they guessed. But the most recent and more in-depth studies show that fertilization never even occurs, that in the rare event if the egg is fertilized, the morning after pills do nothing to prevent implantation and the pregnancy continues on as normal.
So are these groups ignorant of that fact? No, they’re not. They choose to ignore it because then they’d have nothing to fight against. Their whole façade against abortion isn’t legitimate; their agenda is to force girls to be pregnant as a punishment for having sex. However studies show that once a teen has a baby she is more likely to end up pregnant again within two years. So is pregnancy really a deterrent for sexual activity or does it promote future sexual activity? What is scarier is that they also don’t support Plan B in cases of rape. Forcing a female to carry a baby for 9 months just as evidence of a crime is appalling.
I can only hope that those under 18 who need access to this important prevention of pregnancy will be able to obtain it. There is no question of the negative impact of teen pregnancy. There is no valid reason why teens can’t use it safely. Until they can get it easily, they will be headed for a true abortion or crisis pregnancy that will affect the rest of their lives.
I must agree. Plan B should make everyone happy, it will lower abortion rates and increase womens control over their bodies. There is no reason why it wasn’t passed months ago. Leave it to the Right to try and stop people from having responsible sex.
Hey, if they control sex and guilt, they control people; and if they control people they can extract money from them! The church learned that lesson centuries ago.
If unwanted pregnancies become a relic of the past, what will Susan Wagle and Brenda Landwehr have to use as a rallying cry?
It isn’t that these groups are just anti-abortion…they are anti-contraceptive. Their true purpose is to make all contriceptives illigal.
Oh for God’s sake!!! I never meet any one who was prolife that thought people should be forced to have babies as a punishment for having sex. That’s just stupid.The “morning after” pill is no guarantee that women won’t get pregnant, and the more it is used as a form of birth control the less effective it becomes, I think it’s only about 80% successful when used as birth control. It’s not nearly as effective as bith control pills or the deprovera injection (which is like 99% effective). These pills being sold over the counter is not a miracle drug that will prevent all unwanted pregnancies, even though that would be wonderful if it did.I worry about women taking them without the supervision of a doctor, and I wonder how it will affect the health of women who do attempt to use it for birth control. Only time will tell. I’m no sure this drug should be available “over the counter” to minors, but I’m glad it’s available to women. I just hope it doesn’t cause too much harm when it’s misused. I guess it’s been fairly successful in Europe. We’ll just have to see what happens.
Mary, you should visit the message boards sometime, it’s a very common statement from pro-lifers “if they played, they should have to pay”.
Oh and, it’s unlikely to be used as regular birth control. The cost alone would be outrageous to use it that way.
Politicalmom, the cost was what I was wondering about. If high enough, it could be a deterrent to using it for non-emergency situations.
The price of birth control pills is out of reach for many. Some insurance companies do cover them, but I’m still amazed at the cost. Thirty years ago a month’s supply was around $3-4. Today it’s 10X that much, in most cases.
Mary, one of my daughters was on the deprovera injection. She gained 30 or 40 pounds and is still trying to lose it, months after going off of it. At present, she has no insurance but is looking for something affordable…something that will cover pregnancy and birth, especially. (Can you hear me laughing?) She’s married, and the combined income is too high for reduced cost. But I hear what you’re saying.
Abstinence… the only fool-proof way of never having an unwanted pregnancy.
Don’t want to have an unwanted pregnancy?
Abstinence is your solution!
Don’t want to have to deal with getting nasty STDs?
Abstinence knocks all contraceptives to the moon!
Don’t want to have to spend money on condoms / morning after pills / deuches?
Abstinence won’t cost you one red cent!
Yes friends, no more breaking your piggy banks and scouring between the sofa cushions to spend money on pills which may have unforeseen side-effects! Holy hell! Glory holy hallelujah! If you’re so concerned with getting pregnant, then here’s a tip: Maybe you should, I don’t know, refrain from having sex? (heterosexual of course)Is that such a difficult concept to grasp? Is the deprivation of sex the equivalent of depriving food water or air to the human body? Can we live without having sex? Gasp! There I said it; and you don’t even have to spend a dime boys and girls!
I read that the morning-after pill is more than 90% effective.
It’s obviously meant for emergancy use as Politalmom said. It just makes me sick that since some group of idiots thinks birth control is immoral, all the science goes out the window. All because of someones ideology. Unfortunately, you can replace “birth control” with many other issues. I’m still wondering how long these people are willing to fight off progress.
Yes Will, Abstinence is the best option, but it’s not really the most realistic option. I’m not for people rushing out into young marriages just so they can satisfy their urges to have sex. Talk about a disaster waiting to happen. But sex IS a natural, normal part of one’s being, and eventually, hopefully in adulthood, the issue will come up, even in marriage.
Well, Will, basically, we’re all animals. What can I say?
Mary,Do you have any idea how many anti’s still believe what Phyllis Schlafly said, that”good christian girls don’t get raped”??? I’ve heard half a dozen or so say that in just the last 6 months! Of course, after hearing that, no good christian girl is going to admit to being raped.
Mary you need to speak with those religious nuts that protest outside of Tiller’s everyday. They don’t only whine that Plan B is murder but the regular birth control pill is murder.
What reason does someone like Wagle have to oppose regular birth control for women? Why don’t Catholic hospitals provide EC for rape victims? It’s because they feel that rape is an acceptable means of reproduction.
Mary?
“Oh for God’s sake!!! I never meet any one who was prolife that thought people should be forced to have babies as a punishment for having sex. That’s just stupid.”
Well you have met ME. I USED to see babies as punishment for having sex. You are right it was stupid. But I was not alone and not the only one.
Will posts a lot like I would have back then……..
“Why don’t Catholic hospitals provide EC for rape victims?”
Doug, it’s my understanding that they do. At least it was 15 or so years ago. Not that I think they want it broadcast though.
RD, when states provide EC in rape kits they often take them out and don’t tell the rape victim. When asked they may provide it or they may not. It’s the taxpayer that pays for these kits and pays for the EC in them so it’s simple robbery when they are taken out.
In Wichita there is no EC in the rape kits.
“…good christian girls don’t get raped…” Does that mean they’re willing participant?
But now that it’s non-prescription, what are the rules of dispensing? Can pharmacists refuse to sell, or must they give reference to another pharmacy that will sell them?
Roo Haa,Good one, but as I recall Ms. Schlafly’s argument, good christian girls don’t wear provocative clothing or go out at night, etc., and in any event, their prayers for the forgiveness of their rapist will soften his heart so he will spare them the dishonor of being raped. Yeah, sure. And if it doesn’t work, that just proves they weren’t good christian girls!
Roo Haa,Good one, but as I recall Ms. Schlafly’s argument, good christian girls don’t wear provocative clothing or go out at night, etc., and in any event, their prayers for the forgiveness of their rapist will soften his heart so he will spare them the dishonor of being raped. Yeah, sure. And if it doesn’t work, that just proves they weren’t good christian girls!
Catholic hospitals don’t provide birth control, and EC is birth control. We used to despense birth control pills in the hospital if the patient brought in her own. My sugestion, if a woman gets raped, she should to go to Wesley for treatment, or get a script for EC and take it soon after she seeks treatment. At least there is a brief window (2-3 days?) when a woman can take it and it most likely will prevent pregnancy.As for abstinence, Will, don’t you remember what it was like being young and filled to the brim with raging hormones? Telling people not to have sex is like telling the rain not to fall or the sun not to shine. When has mankind EVER resisted the temptation of sex for very long? The earth’s population is pretty telling when it comes to the sucess of “just say no”. I know priests who took a vow of celibacy who have fathered children. When it comes to sex, mother nature is a pretty powerful force to be reckoned with.
Jed, as for Phillis Schaffly, didn’t she die out with the dinosaurs? If anyone still believes her rants, then they must be really weird.Many woman can take the Depovera Injection and not gain weight, my daughter and niece took it without any side effects. Any drug you take has the possibility of side effects, the pill and other forms of hormones are no exception. It would be wonderful if they could come up with a reliable form of BC that had none, but it probably won’t happen anytime soon. Will is right, the only 100% fail proof way not to get pregnant with no side effects is abstinence.
Doug, Catholic hospitals don’t believe that rape is an acceptable form of reproduction. The Catholic Church opposes BC because it believes that God gives us children and that to prevent that is to disobey God. It also believes that life is sacred and that it begins at conception. It does make exceptions to BC, and that is when a woman’s life would be in danger if she became pregnant. I remember the woman who lived next door when I was growing up. She had nine children, and after having a miscarriage (that would have been #10 kid), the doctor told her she was risking her life if she had anymore pregnancies. She got special dispensation to take “the pill” from our parish priest (I never did think it was any of his business, but that’s how it used to be).There are many misconceptions (pardon the pun) about the Catholic Church, and the often held belief that women should risk their lives in order to give birth is one of them. You shouldn’t judge a whole religion by the actions of a few extremist weirdos, that’s not fair. The Catholic Church believes that abortion is the killing of a human being, and they have a vaid point. The church has never condoned the idea that sex is sinful or wrong, or is only for the purpose of having children, it believes sex is only wrong when it’s misused or exploited for selfish purposes.
I know a gal who works for a Catholic hospital, she has a condition that could very well kill her to have children. She couldn’t get her birth control through the insurance under her health plan (even though that health plan would cover it elsewhere) because of the hospital’s beliefs. That’s wrong.
In cases of rape, the Catholic hospitals should NEVER withhold the option of EC- there is no legitimate reason not to give it to them.
I will never ever be admitted to a Catholic hospital if me or my family has any say over it. I just don’t trust them to make ethical decisions based on fact rather than religion. If they’re serving the public as a service like this, they should do so without the imposition of their beliefs.
And I believe California Supreme Court ruled recently against Catholic hospitals that impose their beliefs on others.
Sorry, but Catholic hospitals are owned and operated by the Catholic Church, they have the right to stick by their values and beliefs. You will never see a Catholic hospital dispense BC or perform abortions. It would go against Church law. When church law changes, then so will the hospitals. That’s just how it is, whether you believe it’s right or worng. If you don’t agree, then by all means, don’t patronize those hospitals.
PS, ALL ethical decisions made by Catholic hospitals are based on the Catholic religion. It would be hypocritical to do otherwise.
Then they should get out of the hospital business. That is what it is, a business.
Mary,”Jed, as for Phillis Schaffly, didn’t she die out with the dinosaurs?”Would that be during Noah’s flood? Yes, she did, but apparently a lot of people missed the obituary. I heard that statement quoted just a couple weeks ago by my neighbor, who belongs to Terry Fox’s old church, and who also says that the excuse of an abortion to save a woman’s life is fraudulent, since any real mother would gladly die for her child.I might also point out that the catholic church has beatified a woman who refused chemo for her cancer because she was pregnant, and died shortly after giving birth. This is the example they are holding up for women to emulate!
Oh, and the only non-catholic ER in town is Wesley, and Via Christi has been trying to buy it for years. It’s getting hard to not patronize them.
Mary,Good point, but on the other hand it is possible for a person to abstain himself from sex until he/she gets married, or whenever one is ready to accept the responsibility of bringing up children. I understand that it is difficult to remain chaste especially in our society where we are constantly bombarded with sexual imagery. I’m not saying that if one dresses in a suggestive manner that one is immoral, but I do say that there are places where it is appropriate to dress that way and there are places where such attire and sexually explicit commentary is inappropriate. All I am saying is that common decency demands that you don’t talk about explicit sexual positions while teaching kindergarten class or camping out with your Boy Scouts troupe or with your altar boys at church. Common decency demands that (and this is for all you parents out there who are lacking common sense) you DON”T DRESS UP YOUR 5 or 8 YEAR OLD GIRL LIKE A BABY PROSTITUTE! Common sense dictates that you don’t do that. Then perhaps, maybe the adolescent boys wouldn’t think of sex so much.
Catholic hospitals don’t run on government funds, so they can pretty much do whatever they want in them since the American taxpayer does not pay for them. Consequently, I know supporters of EC would like to see these hospitals practice these things or be shut down; however would you really want to have to drive farther to recieve medical care? I believe that hospitals perform a noble service to the community that we often take for granted. So be thankful that Catholic hospitals take the Mother Theresa approach and will admit anybody who is in need of emergency medical care regardless of what faith or lack thereof any patient may profess. I mean, we could be like Evangelicals who even though you may be a professed Christian, aren’t a “real Christian” (whatever the hell that means) in their eyes; and say that Catholic parents are unfit for adopting “real Christian” orphans from their orphanages.
They accept medicare and medicaid now don’t they? Then they’re accepting taxpayer dollars.
And it’s the LAW that they admit anyone in an emergency.
Mary, the Catholic church is free to run the hospitals as they see fit, unless they accept public funds. The moment they do that they have to operate their business as a secular business because the government cannot subsidize their religion. So the Catholic church can give back the hundreds of millions of dollars they’ve taken from the taxpayer, and refuse future subsidies, or they can provide health care to rape victims, rather than supporting the rapist.
Will, Catholic hospitals 66% of their funding comes from the federal government, only 5% actually comes from charitable contributions. The Catholic church provides 0.0015% funding for the hospitals. If the hospitals didn’t receive any public funding they’d go out of business. The Catholic hospitals should be forced to provide contraception or else give the money back.
Why should the Catholic hospitals be forced to despense contraception? It’s not like a person can’t get it if the hospital refuses provide it. What’s next, Catholic hospitals being forced to provide abortions? In case you didn’t, know the federal and state government won’t pay for an elective abortion procedure. This is a non issue, there is no one who has ever been denied BC because the Catholic Church thinks it’s immoral. Just go to the pharmacy down the street if you need it.
EXCUSE ME Jed!?! Please inform me of the woman who was beatified because she choose dying over having an abortion? I’d like to see a reliable link on this one. Sounds like more anti-Catholic propaganda to me.I have a friend who did do that, she put off having chemo for her colon cancer until her baby had a chance of living outside the womb, she died shortly after the baby was born, and I don’t remember anyone in the church making a saint out of her.
Doug, I don’t think the Catholic Church “supports the rapist”. That pisses me off how you twist the ideaology to suit your beliefs. There is no policy in the hospital that forbids a doctor from writing a script for emergencty BC to a rape victim, she just has to go to an independant pharmacy because the hospital pharmacy doesn’t provide it. It’s not like she’ll be denied treatment. I really take offense to the idea that the Church supports rapists, or that it believes that rape is an acceptable form of reproduction, or that it makes saints out of women who die because they refuse to have an abortion, or that sex is for the purpose of reproduction only, those are all lies mean’t to make the Church look like some sort of woman hating religion. I grew up in the Church and went to Mass and listened to the theology everyday until I grew up and got married, and though I no longer paracice the religion or beleive in the theology, I hate it when people accept this propaganda as fact.
Political mom, why do you think that The Catholic hospitals should provide all medical treatment when Medicaid won’t even pay for an elective abortion? Isn’t Medicaid totally funded by the taxpayers? Then what gives them the right to deny a woman an abortion? Why would you expect the hospital to provide a service that the govenment won’t even provide? It was only recently that the government decided to pay for birth control.
Mary, the rapist victimizes the woman and when the woman goes for help the Catholic hospital victimizes the woman by refusing her full treatment. Is one act of demonizing a woman any different than another? The rapist views the woman as subhuman and the Catholic hospital shares in that treatment saying that if she ends up pregnant then she deserves her fate.
So why do you think the taxpayers should subsidize such abhorrent, primitive mental abuse of women?
Mary,Giana Beretta Morra, beatified 2004.http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintgaq.htm
In the church’s view, how does the killing of an innocent child for the heinous act of another compassionate?It’s all how you look at it. Believe me, the Church doesn’t believe women should be punished for getting pregnant, that’s your spin on things, not theirs.How is a woman going to be denied services? Like I said before, just because the pharmacy doesn’t stock birth control, that doesn’t mean a woman can’t have access to it, am I right or am I wrong?Do you believe that because the Church abhors and condemms abortion that it means they hate women?
Excuse me- that was Molla.
Jed, judging from the link, I’d say that she was canonized for her life work, not the fact that she refused to have an abortion. She refused because of her values and beliefs, which was her right. But I doubt she would have been canonized for that reason alone. She sounds like she was a pretty remarkable person who contributed a lot to others.How is the fact that military people sacrifice their lives for the freedom of others and their country any different than what she did?
If I was in her shoes, I would have done the same thing. That would be my right. I wouldn’t expect every woman in that situation to feel the same way. That’s their right. I admire my friend for the sacrifice she was willing to make for her child, it takes a lot of guts to truly live your beliefs, especially when it means putting your life on the line..
Mary,At the time she was canonized, her refusal of an abortion was emphasized almost to the exclusion of any other reasons. She was brought to my attention by a priest who held her up as a model for all women to emulate.
Mary,”If I was in her shoes, I would have done the same thing.”Fine, your choice! But don’t use her to coerce other women into giving up their lives. They may have other children who would be left motherless in such a case.
The subject of this thread was whether the delay in making the Plan B pill available was politically motivated.
As is mentioned in the header, Plan B is not abortion.
But see how this thread has morphed into a debate on abortion, morality, and finally into the case of one person!
I think this demonstrates that emotions in these matters are high enough for some folks to have played politics with the availability of this Plan B pill.
“Political mom, why do you think that The Catholic hospitals should provide all medical treatment when Medicaid won’t even pay for an elective abortion? Isn’t Medicaid totally funded by the taxpayers? Then what gives them the right to deny a woman an abortion? Why would you expect the hospital to provide a service that the govenment won’t even provide? It was only recently that the government decided to pay for birth control.”
Note the keyword there Mary, ELECTIVE. I don’t want my taxpayer dollars going to someone who wants a nosejob either. Medicaid does pay for someone who has a medically necessary abortion, but would the hospital do it? No. Even if it is necessary.
Interesting that the RR is doing it’s damnedest to make Plan B unavailable, and yet are also pushing hard against any gun restrictions. Wait ’til they’re born, and then blow ‘em away?
As is their right to refuse to do something they believe is unethical.If you believe that hospitals should provide abortion services, then don’t patronize the ones that don’t. For those who want and need to have access to birh control and abortion services, there are plenty of clinics and pharmacies where those services are available. No one has to go without because of the moral stance the Church takes these two issues. We have a right to believe as we want in this country, and if you don’t want other forcing their morality on you, then don’t try to force yours on them.
Mary?
What if a woman is South Dakota wants/needs an abortion? It was banned there.
You’re right Jed, the hypocrisy on BOTH sides always blows me away. How can one claim to emulate Jesus and live by Christians principles and then carry a gun, ready and willing to kill another human.Then there are those who vehemently oppose the death penalty, but think it’s perfectly OK to kill an innocent human being before it’s born for any reason whatsoever.I guess it’s just all a matter of perception.
I don’t know JR, what’s your point?
I guess if you think someday you or yours might need to get an abortion you shouldn’t choose to live there.
What about the people that already live there?
Then they may have to move, I guess. Sounds like the majority of the population has spoken, and they don’t want abortion services there. I’m not agreeing or disagreeing, that’s just how it is in South Dakota.
There is no death penalty in many states, how is that any different. There is no legal marriage between gays in most states, I guess when it comes to issues that are strongly influenced by religion or morality, then the states have to decide for themselves what they’ll tolerate and what they won’t. We’re one of the few states that allows abortion up through the 9th month.
Back to the issue of this thread, I’m glad emergency BC is available, but I don’t think Catholic hospitals should be forced to provide it if it goes against Church doctorine.
Would this be your recipe for action as to Plan B as well? (Not saying it is, just asking.)
Are folks going to have to move to gain access to freedom and to get away from those who would deny it based on “morality”? There are an awful lot of large states where that “morality” would be in the majority. This could lead to a sort of Balkanization of the US. Not a good thing I think.
Sorry there Mary,
Posts obviously crossed.
I know that you personally are pro life. There are those I call “pro life”. Such are the folks who would deny access to Plan B which is NOT abortion but could drastically reduce the numbers of that procedure.
Mary,
I’m certain you’re more knowledgeable about what currently can and can’t be done in Catholic hospitals in a case of rape. All I know is that some 20 or 25 years ago, a rape victim was given something to stop a potential pregnancy in St. Francis. The rape occured only a few blocks south of there. Could be it was okay to do then, could be that someone didn’t follow the rules. I wasn’t the victim, so I don’t know. I’ll bow to your wisdom on the matter.
And you’re right about the fact that the Catholic hospital pharmacies will not provide BC, but a woman can go elsewhere with her prescription. I’ve known many “good” Catholic women on BC. It’s a personal decision.
When my 4th child was born at St. Joe (all 4 of them were and all 3 of my grandkids and me, too), my doctor did what he could to see if he could do a tubal. Now, I’m sure the nurses in that delivery room weren’t all Catholic, but they stuck to their guns and followed the rules. I had to give it to him. At least he tried. A couple of months later, I went to Wesley and had the procedure done as an outpatient. No big deal. :)
When I was pregnant with my third child, I went to Wesley just so I could get my tubes tied. I remember when a friend of my mothers wanted her tubes tied after having her 7th child at St Francis way back in the early 60’s, the doctor just said he was performing an “appendectomy” and sterilized her instead. I think the doctors always had their own way of getting around the rules. Just like we used to dispense birth control to patients at the the Catholic hospitals where I worked for years, we were told to call it “hormone therapy”, and that was OK with management, so long as the women brought in their own pills.
JR, I’m certainly in favor of anything that would reduce the number of abortions. If I were queen, BC would be in the water supply and people would have to take parenting classes and pass a test before they could get the antidote to get pregnant!I think BC is a wonderful thing, but I still don’t think the Church should have to comprmise it’s values to satify the demands of our “progressive” culture. At least the Church is consistant in that it practices what it preaches, even though most American Catholics do their own thing anyway. You don’t see big Catholic families like in the 50’s and 60’s, it’s too unrealistic to think that people can afford to have all those kids and the expenses that go along with raising a large family. Besides, it’s very irresponsible for people to reproduce like rabbits with the earth as overpopulated as it is.
Mary,OK, lets try a somewhat different scenario; you have been in a wreck and have been transported to the nearest ER, bleeding badly. The only doctor on call turns out to be a Jehova’s Witness. Does he have the right to deny you a transfusion, since he has scripture that prohibits it? Would he have the right to deny you transport to a hospital where you can get one, because your condition is unstable?
I don’t think the hospitals allow doctors to dictate their policies. If a doctor is a Jehova’s Witness, he would not be allowed to treat patient’s based on his beliefs. Just like a doctor who believes in abortion would not be allowed to perform as abortion in a hospital that doesn’t allow that procedure to be done.If a woman walks into a hospital, expecting to get emergency BC in a facility that refuses to stock it, there is nothing that says a doctor can’t refer her to a place when she can obtain it.If a hospital is owned by the Jehova’s Witness and therefore refused to do blood transfusions, then a person would be stupid to go there expecting to get one even if their life depended on it. A person’s desire to obtain birth control doesn’t mean that everyone in the medical profession must accommodate her, but there are plenty of places that will, so it why is it even an issue?I’ve yet to see anyone whose life is dependant on the immedidate despensing of BC, even emergency BC. Have you, Jed?
By the way, a doctor has to get approval from the hospital itself to practice medicine in their facility. They are subject to the rules of the facility, they don’t make their own rules.But, as a nurse, if I worked in a hospital that offered abortion services, I couldn’t be forced to participate in the procedure if it was against my values.
Another point, when a woman’s life is in immediate danger, like say with a tubal pregnacy, then EVERY hospital in Wichita will do whatever it takes to save her life, and that would include removing the embryo. No hospital is going to let someone die because of a religious belief when they can do something to prevent the death.Catholic hospitals will allow a family to remove a loved one from life support and they will respect a person’s right to refuse treatment, even if it results in their death. The only exception is that parents can’t refuse life saving treatment from their child based on religious belief. If a child needs a blood transfusion and the parent’s happen to be Jehova’s Witness, then the child will become the ward of the hospital and recieve the infusion. Parent’s can’t withhold life saving treatment from their children, not without a huge fight.
That’s a good point, why allow removal of an 8 week old embryo in a ectopic pregnancy (which is basically an abortion, the pregnancy would kill both patient and mother), but a Catholic hospital won’t allow EC to prevent pregnancy? They are serving the public, dependent on the public dollars. Do you think that hospital would survive alone on Catholic money? Hardly. A doctor who would also be a Jehovah’s witness would not be able to opt out of a life saving procedure to his patient, or he would be held accountable. First do no harm…in that oath they are expected to do what it takes for the health of their patient…not the doctor’s beliefs or the hospital’s beliefs- the patient’s beliefs. It is important to give patients their medications…that pill has to be given within 72 hours of sex to be effective. You can’t always get INTO another doctor that fast. And to those who say ‘no big deal to go to another hospital for tubals…you put yourself at double risk to have another surgery when you could have had it right then (especially after a c-section). Every surgery carries risk, even dental procedures. So it IS increasing risk to go to another hospital to have it done. Now you all live in Wichita where you can hop across town, but out here in rural Kansas, we have ONE doc and ONE pharmacy. If you go in on Friday for EC, good luck getting into another doctor out of town.
Mary,
One thing that used to concern me and you have laid to rest is that when I was a kid, my very Catholic father told me that in a case of choosing the mother’s life over the unborn child’s at the time of delivery, the child would be chosen in a Catholic hospital. If this was true in the past (my dad was born in 1910), then it’s obvious things have changed. If it wasn’t true, I’ll forgive my dad for not knowing the facts. :)
Do the nuns still baptize the newborns?
In Catholic hospitals no choice is made between the mom and the baby, ALL life is scared. They would try to save both.No, the nuns don’t baptize the babies as far as I know, if the parents request it, then I think a priest is called in.PM, No matter what you or I think, Catholic Hospitals will not change their policies and I think they should be allowed the freedom to make policy according to church law. They own and run the hospital and it is their right not to do things they believe are unethical. It’s about following what the Church perceives as God’s law and as a result, they will not be responsible to see that women are supplied with birth control.Do you think that they should be forced to perform abortions just because a woman doesn’t live close to a clinic? If I worked in a small town hospital do you think I should be forced to participate in abortions if a woman lives far away from a clinic? Talk about forcing your morality on others! I would gladly give a woman EC, but just because I would, that doesn’t mean I have the right to force others to do the same if they believe it’s not ethical.
If it is a matter of life and death, yes, you bet your butt I would expect you to do it to save my life.
Mary, nobody is asking the Catholic hospital to kill any children a rape victim may have. I don’t even know how you managed to bring up that unrelated subject or the unrelated subject of abortion. The issue is Plan B and the Catholic hospital’s refusal to give it to the rape victim. Are you confused about the issue and think emergency contraception is abortion? You ought to look into the facts before you make your decision.
The EC only works up to three days after sex. After that if the egg becomes fertilizes it attaches to the uterus and the woman becomes pregnant. Since it is impossible to detect for pregnancy three days after intercourse you have no idea whether or not the egg is fertilized or is not. If you are opposed to abortion then it makes perfect sense to provide the EC otherwise the rape victim’s only other option is to get an abortion. To refuse her EC is saying that you are in favor of abortion which contradicts your entire position of being against it.
The Catholic hospitals receive government money, they aren’t being paid to practice their religion but to practice health care. It’s the Constitution, you might like to check up on it and if you don’t like this country then you are free to pack up your churches and move to that anti-democratic, pro-fascist theocracy in the Vatican.
Thanks, Mary. I wasn’t asking to be flippant. I just remember things my dad told me when I was a kid. He’s been gone for almost 20 years, so I can’t go back and show him that he was either wrong or that things have changed. I really do appreciate your comments.
Jed,Do you understand the process of canonization? Do you know that it takes at least 7 years after someone is beatified during which their life is investigated by the Curia, as well as the investigation of miraculous activity pertaining to that person? So. You think that woman was canonized as a saint just for the simple fact that she didn’t have an abortion? If that were truly the case then why aren’t the millions upon millions of Catholic women who have never had abortions being canonized saints as we speak? Hell, if that were the case then every woman in my family should be a saint! I guess I better notify the pope huh?Hehehe, you are slipping Jed.
you are free to pack up your churches and move to that anti-democratic, pro-fascist theocracy in the Vatican.
Gee? Does this sound like anti-Catholic bigotry to anyone?This reminds me of that scene from Blazing Saddles:”We’ll give land to the niggers and the chinks, but we don’t want the Irish!”
hehehe
If you don’t like America then you can giiit oouut!HAHAHAHA! Spoken like a true redneck Doug.For what it’s worth I bet any amount of money that if we compared the body counts that were the result of the Catholic Church over it’s roughly 1600 year old existence to that of America and it’s +200 year old existence, America would win by far! Hey, so what if the Japs beat us in the automobile department? At least you dumbfucks can take comfort in knowing that you’re numero uno when it comes to putting people in bodybags! So please save your naive comic book fantasies of America being a country that champions human rights when it is painfully obvious that you deny living people the most basic of human rights of being alive. I swear to God! I don’t want to hear anymore of you motherfuckers bitching about human rights or about how women are treated in Iran, or about Israeli zionists playing on American sympathies about the Holocaust begging for American money to defend themselves against the Muslims by invading their lands! I swear to God, the more I hear about these American Israel relations the more I hate my own country! Yes, I did wish that Hezbollah would win when Israel invaded them, and if I am a traitor because I believe that people have a right to defend themselves when attacked by superior forces with superior firepower then so be it! If the zionists invade Lebanon I hope Hezbollah kicks their civilian butchering asses again! So please stuff your arguments about how Catholics are evil people because they invaded the Middle East for the purpose of taking their gold a thousand years ago, because frankly the only difference between the Catholic crusaders and the American military is that the Catholics killed Muslims for gold while the American military kills Muslims for oil!
Doug, yes dear, I understand the difference between EC and abortion, if you took the time to read my posts, then maybe you’d know that.Catholic hospitals base their ethical standards on church law, and I’d suggest that if you don’t agree with the way they do things, then you should take your health care elsewhere. Just because a hospital receives government money, they aren’t bound by law or the constitution to provide every health care service. They don’t do heart or kidney transplants at St. Joe, they don’t do behavioral health care at St. Francis, and NO hospital in Wichita does elective abortions or provides EC or birth control. If a woman is raped and goes in for treatment at any hospital in Wichita, she is given a PRESCRIPTION for EC that she must fill at a pharmacy. As far as I know, there are no pharmacies run by the Catholic church, so it’s not even an issue.What I’m saying is, I don’t believe anyone has the right to demand that a religious institution provide birth control, abortion services, or anything else it finds immoral or unethical even thoough it may be legal. Just because those are your values, doesn’t mean they’re eveyone else’s values, and your values aren’t anymore more important than anyone else’s. Get it?
Don’t worry political mom, if you were dying, I’d do eveything in my power to help you survive. I would never participate in an abortion procedure, but don’t worry because I’d never work for any hospital or clinic that provided those services. That’s MY choice.
“Catholic hospitals base their ethical standards on church law, and I’d suggest that if you don’t agree with the way they do things, then you should take your health care elsewhere. Just because a hospital receives government money, they aren’t bound by law or the constitution to provide every health care service. ”
The problem is not just taking government money, it’s the fact that the church has taken over quite a number of municipal hospitals, thus entering into a public/private partnership. I am aware of cases where a hospital administration pressured doctors or flat out stated that doctors within their facility could not even REFER someone for an abortion or after the fact birth control. I am aware that Catholic hospitals are like Catholic colleges, they vary greatly in their policies. That being said, I see the tendency of some hospitals to interfere with the doctor/patient relationship in the name of religious dogma as heavy handed to say the least, and in fact unconstitutional if they are the only game in town, and are in fact publicly contracted to provide a health care service for a town.
The question I therefore have is whether in the Catholic hospitals we have here, are physicians prevented or even strongly discouraged from writing a prescription for EC? This is aside from the fact that I think that, given the traumatic nature of rape, EC should be provided in a hospital in ALL Wichita hospitals to any rape victim who asks for it.
Well Ksagnostic, why don’t you call all the hospitals and tell them that? I’m sure they’ll listen and change their policies tomorrow.Why do you think you have the right to force your values on others? Like I said before, your ethics have no more validity than anyone else’s. If you feel so strongly about the availability of BC or EC, then open up your own pharmacy and give it away for free, no one will stop you, and most folks will be grateful. You could maybe even get a government grant to do it. BTW, there are lots of clinics in Wichita that provide birth control, and either give it away or only charge on a sliding scale. It’s not an issue that hospitals don’t provide it. Hospital only provide the drugs that they need for patients who are hospitalized.I’m not aware of any hospital policy that forbides a doctor to write a script for anything he so desires. If it’s legal and avavilable at a pharmacy, then he has the right to prescribe anything he wants. Doctors aren’t micromanaged at the hospitals, not even the Catholic ones.I’m really tired of all the Catholic bigotry I read on this blog. Talk about being prejudice and narrow minded!
http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/1209
http://www.albionmonitor.com/9804a/blockwomen.html
http://www.estronaut.com/a/birth_control_and_catholic_healthcare.htm
http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2000/06/hospitals.html
http://www.nurseweek.com/features/98-11/catholic.html
“BTW, there are lots of clinics in Wichita that provide birth control, and either give it away or only charge on a sliding scale. It’s not an issue that hospitals don’t provide it. Hospital only provide the drugs that they need for patients who are hospitalized.”
Go back and reread my post Mary. I wasn’t limiting my comments to Wichita. In fact, I was specifically talking about how reproductive services are often severely curtailed when Catholic organizations take over small town hospitals, and therefore most of the health services in the town. I can see that there are clearly alternatives in Wichita. But there are not necessarily such alternatives in smaller areas.
“Why do you think you have the right to force your values on others? Like I said before, your ethics have no more validity than anyone else’s.”
Again, go back and reread my post. I didn’t say that I desired to force hospitals to change their policies. I said that I think they SHOULD change their policies. And the thing about ethical values, if they are strongly held the person who holds them is naturally going to think that s/he is right. I personally think that a rape victim should be treated with compassion (and I am not, by the way, saying that they are not in Catholic hospitals), and that includes making the process to getting needed or desired healthcare as easy as possible. And yes, I think the policies and positions of the Catholic HEIRARCHY are wrong, and have caused a great deal of suffering in the world, particularly in sub-Saharan Africa. But I am well aware that practicing Catholics are widely varied, and that despite what people think, Catholic service organizations are hardly monolithic.
“I’m really tired of all the Catholic bigotry I read on this blog. Talk about being prejudice and narrow minded!”
Again, go back and reread my post. I specifically said:
” I am aware that Catholic hospitals are like Catholic colleges, they vary greatly in their policies. That being said, I see the tendency of some hospitals to interfere with the doctor/patient relationship in the name of religious dogma as heavy handed to say the least, and in fact unconstitutional if they are the only game in town, and are in fact publicly contracted to provide a health care service for a town.”
Note the use of the word SOME, preceded by a statement indicating an awareness that Catholic Hospitals vary widely in their policies (although the Bishops have pushed for some comformity, they haven’t, so far as I know, achieved it). And I stand by my comments.
One last thing about “anti-Catholic” bigotry accusations. I find them tiresome. I am sure you are a much better person that the odious loudmouth William Donohoe who routinely resorts to accusing his opponents of being anti-Catholic bigots, and are genuinely outraged over some of the comments here. However, to oppose the actions of the Catholic Church as an institution is not the same, by any means, as being prejudiced against Catholics. I was raised as a Catholic (obviously, it didn’t stick), and I know lots of people who are, among many other things, Catholics, and as a population they are like everyone else, most are good to great people, and some are jerks, and most of the ones who are jerks are jerks for reasons not related to their Catholocism (although there are some who really do act like jerks because of their inflexible adherence to what they see as Catholic doctrine, and even then I would guess that they would be inflexible about something else if they weren’t Catholic).
http://www.catholicsforchoice.org/topics/healthcare/keypubs.asp
Read some of the pdf reports on the stifling impacts of SOME Catholic organizations taking over SOME small town hospitals.
But Mary, that’s my point completely…if I’m bad off, terminal, with no hope, I don’t WANT you to force my body to survive. I want my husband to make that decision, not you. And yes, I have it in writing.
No one in the hospital is going to make you survive if that’s not what you want, you have the right to not take treatment in any situation. No one can force you to do something you don’t want, unless you’re a child.
Again, Ksagnostic, NO hospital in Wichita provides EC to rape victims, not just the Catholic ones.
“Cathloics for Choice”, is that the same as “Jews for Jesus”? Sounds like another off-shoot religion to me.Pick and choose, pick and choose…it’s all bullshit anyway.