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104 Comments
First Post! YEA! That’s what i get for staying up all night!
Ok, in response to the earlier thread about the bridges connecting the Keeper of the Plaines and Exploration Place and other threads in the past…
I would like to know what projects the city has done or is planning to do that is a waste of money and what that money can be spent on that is useful…
I know I have been to every nook and cranny of this city, so lets discuss…
oh, and lets leave out the Arena we have hashed that one to death and i think we have a consensus that its a waste of money AS DESIGNED AND PROPOSED NOW.
I’ll start off with a majority of the public “art” that we have seen in recent memory. Pieces like the “Gateway to the city” at Kellogg and Main, the Light column at McLean and Central and the design of the bridges at the Keeper.
I have been driving around a lot lately and i have noticed that there are a lot of streets deteriating quickly… I’d like to see that money used there…
The city had to spend 1% on public project budgets for public art.
The Gateway Arch thing I will admit is a waste of money. The Light Poles are ok. The Arena is defenantly needed.
We do need to do more street repair work though. I agree with you there. We really need great roads that are upkept at all times.
Not only that! But the best thing we can do is reduce crime as much as possible.
If you want to bring companies here, you need to have very low crime. We really need to take a hard look at that and make this one of the safest communities in America.
I also think that road design needs to take more of a front row seat… Roads here need to be widened, with turn lanes, sensor lights, and all of the modern safety bells and whistles.
I do understand that the city needs to spend a percentage of each major project on public art, but please, if they are going to build it, lets build something nice or not build it at all…
Joe, I think we will have a huge surge in crime at the beginning of next year… BUT i think it will level off and in fact drop toward the middle of the year…
Y you ask? because, more people will have guns. More people will shoot back hopefully killing more of the low lives that are causing crime… (yes, i dont put much value to the life of a criminal)
It’s very expensive though. With the exception of government employee payroll, street expansion and repairs are the most expensive item in the budget.
The Kellogg Expansion alone is from tax revenue collected since 1982.
Ahh! The CC permits. :)
We need to combat gang activity and cronic drug problems. We really need to take a tough stance on it.
Oh, just as an FYI… So far there isn’t anything in the books that says its illegal to carry a taser… ;-) From what I understand, some of the various private security firms are going to start issuing them to their officers… Oh and if you taser a police officer, it has been determined that its a lethal offence and that that officer or his partner or anyone else in the vicinity of the tased officer may shoot to kill. So, I recommend not taking a officer.
How Rotten Can you get?
“Israel Asks US to ‘Quickly’ Send More Cluster BombsBarbara Ferguson, Arab NewsWASHINGTON, 12 August 2006 — Israel has asked the Bush administration to speed up its delivery of short-range anti-personnel rockets armed with cluster munitions, despite reports by the Human Rights Watch that Israel is using cluster bombs “in populated areas of Lebanon,” which it said “may violate the prohibition on indiscriminate attacks contained in international humanitarian law.”
Critics say cluster bombs leave behind a large number of unexploded bomblets, which often kill long after they are fired.
“Our research in Iraq and Kosovo shows that cluster munitions cannot be used in populated areas without huge loss of civilian life,” said Kenneth Roth, executive director of the New York-based HRW.
Last Sunday, Israel ambassador Daniel Ayalon denied the charges, telling reporters: “No, we are not [using cluster bombs]. We are not using anything which is not approved by the UN Conventions and Charters.”
But, according to the New York Times, Israeli officials have admitted to using cluster bombs during the current conflict.
On July 24, HRW reported that Israel “has used artillery-fired cluster munitions in populated areas of Lebanon.
Researchers on the ground in Lebanon confirmed that a cluster munitions attack on the village of Blida on July 19 killed one and wounded at least 12 civilians, including seven children. HRW researchers also photographed cluster munitions in the arsenal of Israeli artillery teams on the Israel-Lebanon border.”
The group identified the munitions as “M483A1 Dual Purpose Improved Conventional Munitions, which are US-produced and supplied, artillery-delivered cluster munitions.” “What makes those munitions particularly lethal is that they consist of a container that breaks open in mid-air and disperses smaller sub-munitions. Those weapons are designed to explode on impact, right before and immediately after impact, saturating an area with flying shards of steel. These sub-munitions generally have a higher explosive charge than anti-personnel land mines,” Cesar Chelala — an international public health consultant based in Washington, recently told reporters.
This is not the first time that Israel has been involved in a cluster bomb controversy. After evidence was presented that Israel had used cluster bombs against civilian areas during the 1982 Israel invasion in Lebanon, the Reagan Administration suspended delivery of the weapons to Israel.
According to yesterday’s New York Times: “Israel was found to have violated a 1976 agreement with the United States in which it had agreed only to use cluster munitions against Arab armies and against clearly defined military targets. The moratorium of selling Israel cluster weapons was later lifted by the Reagan Administration.”
Yesterday’s NYT’s quoted unnamed sources at the US State Department who said some officials there were now seeking to delay approval of the “short-range anti-personnel rockets armed with cluster munitions” due to the “likelihood” that it would cause civilian casualties.
The US had previously approved the sale of the M-26’s rockets, but the weapons had not yet been delivered when the war on Lebanon began.
The officials told NYT they believed Israel would be given the weapons, but would be told to “be careful.”
Despite the extensive media coverage of the current conflict in the Middle East, almost no US media outlets were reporting on HRW’s findings.
In a July 27 article, The Los Angeles Times concluded that the “Israeli army said it was checking into the group’s allegations, but added that the weapons were legal under international standards.”
On July 27, the New York Times reported that an Israeli general “acknowledged that Israel had used cluster munitions in the conflict.” The Times described the alleged use of such weapons as “another matter that has drawn criticism.”
Much of the media’s focus has been on the affect of Hezbollah’s weapons: On July 19, for example, the Times reported that US and Israeli officials said Hezbollah had altered some of their rockets by “attaching cluster bombs as warheads, or filling an explosive shell with ball bearings that have devastating effect.”
Washington Post columnist Charles Krauthammer recently contrasted the ball-bearing packed Katyushas that “are meant to kill and maim” with Israel’s “precision-guided munitions” as evidence that “Hezbollah is deliberately trying to create civilian casualties on both sides while Israel is deliberately trying to minimize civilian casualties, also on both sides.”
Weapons loaded with ball bearings would seem designed to be anti-personnel weapons, and their use has been condemned by human rights organizations because of their wide and imprecise blast range said HRW. But cluster bombs, which likewise have a wide and imprecise blast range, pose an even deadlier threat to civilians, as they can spread hundreds of “bomblets” that become “de facto antipersonnel landmines.” Amnesty International called the use of cluster bombs by the US in civilian areas of Iraq “a grave violation of international humanitarian law.”http://www.arabnews.com/?page=4§ion=0&article=77709&d=12&m=8&y=2006&pix=world.jpg&category=World
Ed you may get a kick out of this, in the book I am reading “The secret history of the Iraq War”. The author said that indeed, as some how said was the reason that Bush has not let this welt spring of information that would show he was not lying to take this country to war. Is to protect someone, well he is protecting two according to this book. Israel for providing information that supported that not only did Saddam still have a large hidden stock pile of WMDs. But he also had a vast program to make them, both fixed and mobile labs. That Saddam was and had receive countless WMDs from many countries, Russia, China, France, Germany, the list goes on. AND Bush is protecting someone else…..Yassah Arafat! No Arafat was not providing assistance with information or the like. Bush is protecting Arafat from the disclosure that he was a major part in world terrorism and was playing an active role in the plan to drive the Israelis into the sea.Yes President Bush was protecting a active terrorist kingpin! Remember the seige of Arafat’s compound?Bush pressured the Israelis to not kill Arafat and to use non-destructive menthols to get him to come out.
This book is somewhat entertaining if not what seems like a fictional read at times. Things like for over a year before the invasion. The U.S. British, Jordanians and Turkish had made several incursions into Iraq.That the U.S. had a full scale air war long before there was any talk of an Invasion. Using the No fly zone as an excuse. Daily bombing runs were made and the author tells of an encounter where U.S. forces while snooping around a possible weapons site. Were trapped by Iraqis and a three day fire fight occurred, the Iraqis even brought a number of the WMDs out of hiding to be used when any reinforcements. But finally after the three days Saddam ordered that the Americans be given a corridor to escape. Once the Americans were gone the WMDs were taken back to their hiding place. The decision was made not to give air support to the trapped U.S. forces because of the chance a bomb might hit one of the WMDs and destroy the lot!
God this is all in the first chapter! And this guy paints Bush as a wise President in the beginning.
Not wise enough to know that he’s just a puppet for other world leaders.He’s a volunteer puppet for big business, but that’s a given.
W has been played like a fine tuned instrument!
Oh gosh Pat, what a terrific post.The hubris of these stereotypical religious righties is unbelievable.Connie actually suggests that the people who derailed her campaign are GOING TO HELL!!I’m just gonna’ hafta share this one.
From Pat Hayes at Red State Rabble:
Saturday, August 12, 2006Judgement DayAccording to Agape Press, that ever reliable fount of news from a Christian source, Kansas state school board member Connie Morris has undergone a period of deep introspection following her loss to Sally Cauble in the Republican primary.
After Connie’s dark night of the soul, she’s concluded that the “lying liberal media” is responsible for her defeat.
“The media assassinated me,” Morris contends. “They did everything they could to ruin my character, my reputation. I wish I could go through all the stories to tell you how they were either blatant lies or gross misinterpretations of the facts,” she says.(In this sense, all the stories Morris wishes she could tell are much like the evidence for intelligent design. Often alluded to, but never enumerated.)
It wasn’t just the media, either. Opponents of Kansas’ recently enacted science standards worked, she says, to derail her campaign.
“We just had a lot coming against us,” explains Morris, including “a lot of well-funded, loud, obnoxious, rude people who have no ethics and morals, and they don’t bat an eye at lying and manipulating the truth.”
Moreover, says Morris, liberal opportunists don’t mind “slandering people and harming their families and their reputation and their business and their communities and their state. It’s a shame,” she adds. “It’s a shame, and I feel bad for them when they face God on Judgment Day.”
Although four born-again Christians remain on the State Board of Education, Morris believes the newly empowered liberal majority will waste no time adopting new science standards. In January, she says, when the new members are sworn in, the Board will likely rescind the existing standards and adopt new ones that “let government schools teach children that we are no more than chaotic, random mutants.”Although Morris undoubtedly numbers Red State Rabble among the loud, obnoxious, rude people who have no ethics and morals, and who don’t bat an eye at lying and manipulating the truth, we’d like to take a moment to thank her for her public service. After all, without sweet, sweet Connie, RSR would not exist.
(Adding my own commentary:)I’m sure Jesus loves Connie.Most other people think she sucks.
And from Josh at Thoughts From Kansas:
A Christian News and Media Agency quotes the erstwhile Board of Ed. member saying that “the ‘lying liberal media’ defeated her”:
“The media assassinated me,” Morris contends. “They did everything they could to ruin my character, my reputation. I wish I could go through all the stories to tell you how they were either blatant lies or gross misinterpretations of the facts,” she says.Needless to say, this is a bit rich. Morris didn’t get beaten by the media, she got beaten by Sally Cauble, a truly lovely person. And Morris got some negative media attention when she used taxpayer money to travel to Florida for a conference on magnet schools, and a visit with her family. The problem was that she has no magnet schools, nor plans for magnet schools, in her district, and stayed in a hotel room that cost more per night than her constituents might spend on housing in a month.
Besides which she has written a book about her childhood adventures with sex, drugs and, well, more sex. Media stories that reported the contents of her own autobiography can hardly be criticized as attempts at hurting her reputation.
Guess who she says is:
slandering people and harming their families and their reputation and their business and their communities and their state. It’s a shame. It’s a shame, and I feel bad for them when they face God on Judgment Day.I happen to think that her publicly funded newsletter in which she attacked her colleagues on the Board, and her disrespect for the scientific experts who wrote the standards she hacked to bits both should make her afraid of what will happen on that Day.
Joe and Tony, thanks for some thoughtful posts.
Art:Wichitans have some funny ideas about art. You sure hear a lot of complaining about it. Public art never hurts a city. Nobody is going to like everything that is presented as art. You don’t have to like it… just appreciate it. Last week, I drove down east Kellogg. I have to admit the art under the bridges makes me scratch my head. I wonder how many fender benders that has caused.
Crime:Tony, I’ll bet we don’t see much change one way or the other due to CC. I think everybody here knows I’m pro-gun (redneck Liberal). I know a lot of gun people. So far, there’s no big rush of people applying for permits. I have started to hear radio adds about the classes. An advertising push could change the numbers. I don’t know what classes cost, but I heard a $400 figure tossed out. Add that to the $150 a permit costs, and that gets to be an expensive proposition.
Wichita has a bad reputation in the rest of the state when it comes to crime. Maybe if a few gang-bangers get shot, that’ll change.
Tasers are interesting. I have a 900,000 volt taser (no, I don’t carry it). The guy I bought it from at the gun show said they’re legal, but I had an ex cop tell me they’re not legal. I accidently shocked the hell out of myself with mine putting it back in the holster. It was damned uncomfortable, but it didn’t come close to putting me down. If you were going to use one on a big guy, you’d really want to lay into him. After personal experience, I’d think hard about depending on one. If you don’t get your attacker on the first try, you’ll be dealing with one angry sob, lol!
ED,
I like the nice little use of Brackets in your quote:
“No, we are not [using cluster bombs].”
What did he really say?
What is the source for your quote?
The HRW has been trying to get rid of cluster munitions for some time. The reason is because they say the unexploded ordnance is the problem.
It looks like all the examples you provide are of people being killed by ordnance that worked just fine.
XXX, from what i understand, there are some more even more powerfull models comming out to the market… Just look at the jump in power from the version 1 taser and the ones that WPD is carrying now… I have seen thoes in use, they are fun to watch soemone get nailed and watch them flop to the ground…
I think you will have a increase in people like shop and business owners carrying… I also think you will see some middle class people like you, (self proclamed redneck Liberal) carrying.
Ed, go to Textron’s website and take a look at the demo video for their Sensor Fused Weapon.I’ve seen these things being built.
Tony, I saw a couple of drunk cops at a Christmas party playing with a taser. Now watching those guys flop around on the floor was fun.
I’ve been giving CC a lot of thought lately. I had a gun pointed at me here in Wichita about 7 years ago, and I got into a situation in a biker’s bar about 3 years ago that didn’t include guns. Might have been nice to have one…would have saved the other guy a lot of dental work, lol!The gun incident was a freak thing on 96, and the other incident was in a place I didn’t belong and wouldn’t normally go. I’d like to have a permit, but I wonder how often I’d really have a reason to carry a gun. I carry a 9mm in the trunk of my car, so I have access most of the time (that’s legal).
Tony,
You might be interested in this listing of art on the City of Wichita website. There’s a lot more art around than I was aware of until I stumbled on this page.
http://www.wichita.gov/CityOffices/Park/PublicArt/public_art5.htm
I’ve always been intrigued by Gino Salerno’s sculptures. He spoke to a group of Brownies (Girl Scouts) years ago at the Little House and talked about his art and his life. Very interesting. Very nice man.
Interesting website regarding Diebold
http://www.why-war.com/features/2003/10/diebold.html
I think it is time for an update on the WaterWalk. Wasn’t there supposed to be some big groundbreaking by August 1? Joe?
Oh Ben,
Didn’t you know… they still don’t have any more tenants! Therefor they still don’t have a reason to build a new building!
I will bet you that Gander Mountain will go out of business before any of the other buildings in the WW development are completed.
RD,
I have seen this site… I really like it… What i notice is that the majority of the big project art, i.e. the lights at central & McLean and the gateway at main and Kellogg are the ones that a lot of people have a problem with. The smaller, more tasteful and commissioned projects are appreciated. Could it possibly be the scale? Wichitans have a harder time dealing with a piece of art that is “different” in large scale? Might be…
Joe? Didn’t you tell us there were some big announcements in the works?
Still waiting …
Ben,
Weren’t you at that big announcement that the Koch group made about fighting to keep the Boat House and possibly bring Emerald Agassi’s (no clue how to spell it) restaurant? What ever happened there?
Tony – I think part of the problem is that the art is located wrong. For example, the UFO landing site might fit in well on Kellogg near Dugan or someplace but not in the secluded area near Cantral/McLean. A nice limestone water feature would have been very nice there.
Similarly with the ‘whatevers’ near the Indian Center – they simply overwhelm the ‘old’ Keeper statue.
The “fans” at Kellogg/Main might work at a real gateway to the City where you could see them – for example at either end of Kellogg. (More on the symbolism later)
Actually Ben, i think the UFO landing pad should be placed right about Central and Main… Right where it should be…
(lets see who figures it out…)
Intelligence Leak = Traitorous
Santorum is right. And we should back him. From the AP:
“I think it is vitally important for us to understand that the compromises that have been made of American intelligence over the last few months were serious and that the traitors within the intelligence community who leaked that information, for whatever purposes, must be pursued aggressively,” Santorum said.
And: “If leaking this information is traitorous, then publishing it is also complicit with that activity,” Santorum said.
Talking Point: http://blogginoutloud.blogspot.com/2006/08/talking-points-81206.htmlHat Tip: http://stoptheaclu.com/archives/2006/08/12/santorum-intelligence-leakers-traitors/
WHAT! lyngperry
So what you (and Santorum) are saying is that it is Traitorous for a person to leak, report and publish information about illegal activities that our government is involved in? And also that they should be hung for it!
Are you nuts!
I would call them heroes!
Just because the government writes the laws doesn’t mean they are immune from them. Two branches of the government MUST agree on an action to make it legal (if there is no law permitting it). They have the special Pfizer courts just for that purpose and they (Bushdabumb and crew) choose to ignore it and go on with what they wanted to do how they wanted to do it.
As John Stosle would say, Give me a break…
I can hear it now Tony – “Beam us up, there is no intelligent life here. Just a bunch of squabbling parasites”
An addition to the “gateway” I would like to see: our city “leaders” (sic) “piked” outside the wall.
“As Mankind becomes more liberal, they will be more apt to allow that all those who conduct themselves as worthy members of the community are equally entitled to the protections of civil government. I hope ever to see America among the foremost nations of justice and liberality. ”
George Washington
Well lyn you are a kook! But since your powers do not go any furher than posting something outrageous on a blog you are a harmless kook.
Santorum is another matter. He is a kook with the powers of a United States senator. Fortunately Santorums constituents are about to relive him of those powers.
Tony,
Collecting data on terrorists plotting to kill Americans is not against the law.
Nathan- The key is that it is to be done UNDER THE LAW , not around it!The ability to see the distinction , or not, says much about the preposer.
Nathan, you’re right. But that’s not what has everybody so upset.
So what’s your point?
gster,
No laws that I know of are being broken except for the people who are releasing classified information.
UFO landing pad?
I need to get downtown more often.
And since I’m here being subjected to lyngperry’s whine, what about the outing of a CIA agent? Was that okay with you?
Nathan, How do you know that laws are being broken unless someone blows the whistle?Do you think the Attorney General is unbiased in these matters?The guy brought from Texas by the Shrub?Me thinketh an odor doth permeate!!
Lying Perry–
You are absolutely right.
The treasonous rascals who exposed Valerie Plame as a CIA agent and blew her cover “Brewster Jennings” and all its employees and contacts should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
And go ahead and nail The NY Times while you’re at it. If you can make a case that what they did hurt US operations against terrorism, even though Bush himself had been crowing about the success of the program for some time, then let the court decide.
CapnAmerica:When did Bush ever reveal phone tapping/US Operations?
Do you have proof?
This is sorta fun. For stating an opinion in order to solicit discussion I’ve been accused of lying (not sure where that came from), called a kook (again, out of left field) and was questioned if I were nuts (now this one at least attempts to engage in some sort of dialog, albeit in a round about way). Never knew that WE Blog was so accommodating to differing perspectives. lgp
Ok, ill take these one at a time…
RD, the UFO landing pad is the light pillers at Central and Mclean by Riverside. We believe the UFO landing pad should be placed about two miles east at Central and Main… ;-)
Hey I’m willing to listen to a kook lyn.
I’ve made a few of them legends in their own mind.
Let’s better get to know ya lyn.
You are prepared to sacrifice freedom of the press on the altar of “patriotism”.
What other liberties are you prepared to forfeit because you are a bleating sheep who wets yourself when you see an arab?
Thank you gster for taking up while i was gone…
But for Nathan and lying…
It is ILLEGAL to wire tap anyone’s phone lines in the United States of America without a court order. PERIOD. Yes, do i agree we should be hunting down terrorists left and right, yes i do. But guess what, there are certain liberties i believe that should remain and that’s one of them. If the government has a reason to tap my phones, than i expect them to have a court order…
People will probably reply to this and ask me how i would track terrorists and make sure these things dont happen. Well, convienently i have such a plan.
First of all, there should be one, single national ID card. That ID card would act as your drivers license, military ID (if required) and could be utilized as your corporate ID. You would be required to swipe that card every time you board an air plane, private or personal. You would be assigned a threat level after a analysis of your background. This way resources are being wasted on the 90 year old grandmother and they are being directed toward Acmed who just arrived from Egypt on a one way ticket.
Also, you would have to swipe that ID card if you ever enter a federal, state and local office building (basically anywhere they do security screenings). I would say though, corporations that use this card would be required to share that info with the government…
But guess what, the ACLU and NAACP will flip their lids at that one… they will call it profiling.. GUESS WHAT, not a single one of the 9/11 hijackers were Single Black Males, now were they?
Tony,
“It is ILLEGAL to wire tap anyone’s phone lines in the United States of America without a court order.”
Who’s phones have been wiretapped? They were intercepting suspected enemy communitcations.
A wiretap implies placing a listing device on a phone of a person and simply listening in on all the conversations which take place. This is not what the government is doing. That is also why all the liberals keep using that word so that everyone gets a false image of what is happening.
Not only that, but they had a team of lawyers at the NSA to monitor these interceptions to ensure it was ok. Key members of Congress were briefed on all this as well.
Nathan,
I consider intercepting every phone call originated or terminated on the AT&T network, “wiretapping”.
intercepting = wiretapping
You say “Key member of congress”, by last count, only something like 6 members were briefed. That doesn’t mean that it is legal.
The point is that the action was ILLEGAL.
How is it Illegal?
The President has an entire legal staff briefing him on constitutional powers he has and the laws he follows.
Somehow they all came to the conclusion this was good to go.
You can say it is illegal all you want to, but the Presidents advisors, lawyers, and whatnot don’t think so.
I will admit that there can be a debate over it, but it is not as clearly illegal as you or those on the left would have us belive.
If it is so illegal then why are the Democrats not trying to stop him?
It is all politics…
There are interesting new books out as to the high crimes, misdemeanors, and coming impeachment of george bush. These should be good reading! I’ll get those titles posted shortly.
Nathan:
“The President has an entire legal staff briefing him on constitutional powers he has and the laws he follows.”
If they work for him than they are not trying to tell him how to abide by the laws but rather how he can bend / break the laws without getting in trouble.
How do i provide it that it is illegal for the government to wiretap our phone conversations?
Simple, It is provided for in the Bill of Rights:
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Once again, intercepting enemy communications during time of war is not against the constitution rather a part of the Presidents prescribed and authorized duties.
Nathan,
There is no WAR, WAR has never been declared…
We are preforming a military action under a flag of war but it is still illegal. The war in Iraq is illegal under international law…
Ok, let me try it this way… Nathan, would you be acceptable to us, taping all of your phone calls, recording all of your bank transactions and tracking everything that happens with your credit cards and using it for what ever i want… are you ok with that? Because that’s what they are doing.
You are correct, Tony.
And one obvious reason that BushCo. didn’t declare war was that they didn’t want to be held to the rules of war.
You can’t be a “war criminal” if you don’t have a war.
* Ding * Ding * Ding *
We have a winner…
Finally someone understands!
Thank you CapnAmerica!
Remember the 50,000 troops–one in ten–that came home from the first Gulf War with “Gulf War syndrome”?
Well . . . it’s baaack.
And here’s why:
“Since he left a bombed-out train depot in Iraq, his gums bleed. There is more blood in his urine, and still more in his stool. Bright light hurts his eyes. A tumor has been removed from his thyroid. Rashes erupt everywhere, itching so badly they seem to live inside his skin. Migraines cleave his skull. His joints ache, grating like door hinges in need of oil.
“There is something massively wrong with Herbert Reed, though no one is sure what it is. He believes he knows the cause, but he cannot convince anyone caring for him that the military’s new favorite weapon has made him terrifyingly sick.
“In the sprawling bureaucracy of the Department of Veterans Affairs, he has many caretakers. An internist, a neurologist, a pain-management specialist, a psychologist, an orthopedic surgeon and a dermatologist. He cannot function without his stupefying arsenal of medications, but they exact a high price.
“Reed believes depleted uranium has contaminated him and his life. He now walks point in a vitriolic war over the Pentagon’s arsenal of it – thousands of shells and hundreds of tanks coated with the metal that is radioactive, chemically toxic, and nearly twice as dense as lead.”
http://my.earthlink.net/article/nat?guid=20060812/44dd5240_3ca6_15526200608121941417872
But not to worry . . . its radioactivity wears off in about a billion years . . .
Canamerica…
My business partner’s father has Gulf War 1 syndrome… Its not cool… He is in his early 50’s now but he looks like he is in his late 80’s. He can only operate upright for about 4 hours a day. The rest of the time he has to sit or sleep. The worst thing is that the VA wont treat him because the government denies that his sicknesses are a result of his time in duty. If it wern t for the fact that he was a successful financial planner with good insurance, he would either be living on the streets or dead by now. That is a tragedy, for every person we know about, there are probably 10 out there we dont…
Why dont we take better care of our Veterans?
Anyone who has ever fought in battle for this country deserves the best health care around.
A leader needs to emerge and tackle this issue head on.
Veterans affairs is going to be a mess in the years to come. When the vets read into the Bush manipulation, they are not going to take it lightly.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/radiation_soldiers;_ylt=At5iPU1db7dAgPYtmhdh6sOs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3ODdxdHBhBHNlYwM5NjQ-
This is a must read article. The Department of Defense new the dangers of depleted uranium and allowed our military personell to be exposed.
Tony,
You have been fooled by the left. That is not what they are doing.
Not more of the depleted uranium crap…
The Depleted uranium munitions have been tested and proven to be quite safe for what we are using them for.
There is no credible scientific evidence to show otherwise.
All you have is the same old HRW groups who hate any weapons of war throwing a fit about it.
If you actually study the Depleted Uranium munitions you would know this.
Don’t let the truth stand in the way of you oversensationalized hype though.
Here is another example of the “toughness” of liberals…
Lets take away one of the most effective weapons and armor systems our military has because it SEEMS to be scary because it is made of RADIOACTIVE material…
Guess what? There are a ton of things that are radioactive.
There is not any crediblie scientific data to show that DU munitions are harmful the way claimed.
Quote of the Day:
“The craziest part of the status quo regarding Israel is that American Christians are taxed to support an anti-Christian government and are constantly told that it’s their ‘reliable ally’ (in spite of Israel’s long record of spying and technology theft against it’s most generous benefactor)”
“How could a foreign lobby possibly be acting in American interests at all times? Why would it exist at all, except to ensure the subordination of American interests to Israeli interests? If the two countries’ interests were indentical, why would anyone seek to influence either’s government in behalf of the other’s? Such obvious questions were ignored by Patrick Buchanan’s detractors, who included as many servile Christians as Jews.”
“The Israeli connection, like the Chinese one, is a valuable dye marker: It provides a visible intimation of all the domestic corruption we never see.”
“It hardly needs to be pointed out that Israel has no problem with illegal Christian immigrants, and no Christian has held a major office in Israel.”
“It isn’t that Israel lags a little behind Western Standards of justice; it doesn’t even aspire to those standards.”
“Israel is the only ‘democracy’ where the principle that ‘all men are created equal’ has yet to gain much of a toehold.”
Joseph Sobran; Anything Called A ‘Program’ Is Unconstitutional
V.L.R.B!!!
Great, Nathan.
Looks like you get to test your theory first-hand.
The 30 percent of the troops who came back with permanent disabilities from the first Gulf War?
Just coincidence . . . nothing to see here. The military would never downplay the risks, would they?
Nah . . .
CapnAmerica,
Do you have any studies linking the “30 percent” figure you throw out there to DU munitions?
Didn’t think so…
“There are a ton of things that are radioactive . . . ”
True, and they’re all dangerous. Sunlight is dangerous. It is the primary cause of skin cancer.
X-rays are dangerous. That’s why they throw a lead apron over you when they x-ray your teeth.
Radon is a radioactive gas that collects in people’s basements and should be pumped out to minimize health risks.
Naturally occurring uranium like in the Balkans causes all kinds of proven health risks like cancer and birth defects.
I got it from the AP article.
As early as a year after the war, Congressman Reigel was talking about 50,000 sick vets.
Nathan:
“Tony,You have been fooled by the left. That is not what they are doing. ”
What in the hell are you talking about???
Tony – didn’t you know? Anyone who disagrees with Nathan is a fool!
Obviously your partner’s father has a good make-up artists to fool you!
Wow… If it wern t for the fact i have known him for almost two decades, i might have believed Mr Nathan…
Care to comment Nathan?
Nathan, I am not going to try to do a detailed internet search on DU for you but I will say that it is my PROFESSIONAL opinion that DU is excessively hazardous for its use in munitions. It is BOTH a radiological hazard and a heavy-metal toxin.
Ask your local trained hazardous materials professional.
Tony/Ben
I served in the first gulf war for isreal, haliburton and big oil. I suffered no ill effect but I do know of a few people who did get very sick. However, I suspect that it was because of tainted vaccines that we were required to take rather than depleted uranium.
V.L.R.B!!!
Tony
Some time ago the subject of depleted uranium came up here. Nathan vigorously defended its use and decried any harm………until he didn’t. He just sorta quit the field on the matter. Of course all the usual name calling was done and evidence not presented by him before he did so. Likely he will do the same this time.
lol, thanks JR…
See, an interesting thing is that the doctors say this is not caused by depleted uranium but by chemicals he was exposed to…
Lets see what Mr. Nathan has to say bout that…
JR,
Actually I had posted links to several studies done on the use of DU munitions and on their not being harmful the way claimed.
Those links were in my fovorites on my home computer. When I get a chance I will try to find them all again.
Either way, besides a few of you saying it is bad I have yet to see any of you offer credible proof of it being so.
If I do recall I went through your “evidence” last time Ben and it didn’t say anything conclusive and especially didn’t make the drastic claims about it’s harm that I see here.
Tony – your friend was Nam – according to Nathan’s sources your friend is NOT sick. He is faking it – according to Nathan’s sources.
Nathan – I also posted sources – NOT the purveyors of DU – who say it IS hazardous. As I recall, your links all had connections with those purveyors of DU use. Mine come from the HazMat professional community.
Question: Does DU emit neutrons, alpha particles or gamma rays? If so, it is a hazardous material.
Ben, tell us what this stuff shoots out.
alpha, beta, and gamma. However, it’s primary hazard is its heavy metal toxicity.
Problem arises when it vaporizes and burns. This leads to a very finely devided powder which can be inhaled. Primary damage is to the lungs. Also dangerous to the kidneys.
http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/faq_17apr.htm
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs257/en/
More on DU:
http://politics.netscape.com/viewstory/2006/07/31/israelis-use-deadly-depleted-uranium-on-lebanese-civilians/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.prisonplanet.com%2Farticles%2Fjuly2006%2F290706deadlydu.htm&frame=true
http://health.netscape.com/viewstory/2006/08/13/sickened-iraq-vets-cite-depleted-uranium/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.yahoo.com%2Fs%2Fap%2F20060813%2Fap_on_re_us%2Fradiation_soldiers%3B_ylt%3DAiiLycCZSTq1EeUOjgnqhZCs0NUE%3B_ylu%3DX3oDMTA3czJjNGZoBHNlYwM3NTE-&frame=true
Ben,
Do you even read the links you post?
Lets look at some of the highlights of that first one:
“Burn tests and other evaluations performed under simulated battlefield conditions indicated that the health risks associated with the battlefield use of depleted uranium were minimal and even those could be reduced even more by simple, field-expedient measures, especially, avoidance of depleted uranium-contaminated vehicles and sites.”
…
“It is important to note that over 60 friendly-fire victims have been evaluated by the voluntary VA DU Medical Follow-up Program. Aside from the problems associated with their traumatic injuries, to date, this follow-up program has attributed no illness or other harmful effects in the evaluated veterans to DU.”
…
“Q. There are reports from the Balkans and Iraq of individuals recovering the DU penetrators. Are these hazardous?”
“The threat of chemical toxicity would also be minimal because there is little likelihood that sufficient quantities of DU could be inhaled or ingested to cause a heavy metal concern.”
Lets see link #2…
A bunch of hype and political rants from someone, no proof or scientific study.
Actually, it is this comment which proves beyond a reasonable doubt what a pharse your link is:
“The Army thoroughly confirmed that its a radioactive bomb and the shrapnel is there after its use and it’s a problem and everything else so it’s all there.”
LOL
You call that science?
It was nothing but a rant talking about Israel using DU munitions.
We use DU munitions. They are not illegal, like your link kept saying.
What a joke. You call yourself a scientist posting crap like that?
And then link #3…
Is that what you call a “scientific” source?
It is a tragic innicent, yes. The fault of DU munitions? Who knows, I doubt it seriously.
Whats up Ben?
Don’t want to talk about DU munitions anymore?
Forget DU. H.E. can be plenty deadly without exploding.The U.S. quit manufacturing TNT in 1982, so all the new H.E. rounds for the army contains TNT that has been purchased from former Soviet block countries. This stuff is 60 years old, as hard as plastic, and is rapidly deteriorating.Ammonia perchlorate is the nasty by-product that nobody wants to talk about. AP easily migrates through water, soil, and especially skin! Kidney failure, heart problems, immune system failure, BAD STUFF!!Look it up boys.Don’t expect to hear anything in the news about it.People have been poisoned by this stuff since TNT was invented.
I’m sure Ben could enlighten us about the properties of A.P.
Nathan–
That link you refer to has a .mil URL. Of course, it says you can eat DU for breakfast.
Here’s part of a chapter from a Professor of High Energy Physics at CUNY.
“It has been known for over three hundred years that U-238 harms people’s health. For example, Bohemian miners in what is now the Czech Republic would often come across pitchblende ore in their work. Pitchblende ore contains uranium-238. Because of its unusual weight, it would often be used as doorstops in Europe. It was also used to create beautiful colors in ceramic glazes. However, the Bohemian miners would often come down with a mysterious “mountain disease.”
We now know that this mountain disease is really lung cancer, caused by the radioactive emissions of radon gas, a standard byproduct of radioactive decay. Even today the emission of radioactive radon gas and the dispersal of uranium particulates poses a health risk. In the American Southwest, there are hundreds of millions of tons of waste uranium “tailings” left over from the mining and milling of uranium ore. Unscrupulous contractors would sell the uranium tailings to Native Americans, who would then use them to build their adobe homes. It was also sold to developers, who would use the waste uranium for landfill for suburban housing tracts.
It is one of the great unpublicized scandals in this country that Native Americans would breathe the radon gas and uranium particulates, both as miners in unventilated mines, as well as residents in their own radioactive homes. Illness and death have ravaged those in the Native American community who came in contact with uranium waste. But most of the publicity went to several middle-class housing tracts (like Grand Junction, Colorado), which were actually built on top of waste uranium. Much to the embarrassment of the old Atomic Energy Commission, measurements of the radioactive waste uranium showed high levels of radiation and radon gas, so the basements of many of these homes had to be dug up at the taxpayers expense.
http://www.iacenter.org/depleted/kaku.htm
BTW, the Navy and Air Force no longer use TNT based high explosives.HMX, PAX, and other new ‘insensitive’ explosives are the future in explosives manufacture.
And that has anything to do with DU munitions… how?
You do understand the difference don’t you?
U-238 is depleted uranium.
Depleted uranium has 40 percent of the radioactivity of enriched uranium.
Perchlorate is a persistent groundwater pollutant and is found in many areas of the US near munitions plants. Remediation is very difficult.
Nathan – the “anti” sites I linked (along with more neutral ones) are no more biased than your military sites.
Of course, I have to understant that according to Nathan Tony’s veteran friend looks so unhealthy because of the efforts of a liberal make-up artist.
YES NATHAN. If you read my first post on the subject. First line:”Forget DU. H.E. can be plenty deadly without exploding.”
How in the wide wide world of sports could you read my posts and possibly think I don’t know the difference?
I have personnaly met with the Chief Scientist from China Lake and discussed these things.Also the Picatinny Arsenal folks.
I may play dumb and post goofy stuff sometimes for fun, but do I seem THAT stupid?
On second thought, don’t answer that.
oooh Tracy! Can I answer that?tee hee hee
Didn’t you know tracy, captain, anything Nathan gets from the Ministry of Truth and the Ministry of Peace are Gospel truth!
Maybe he’s busy checking out China Lake and Picatinny.Nathan, I’m not bragging or making anything up. Just tried to contribute.Sorry, I should know better.
Contribute?
heheheh
Now ya got him running for the dictionary.
Or maybe just the “bible according to the ayatollahs”?
Contribute. What a foreign concept.
I thought foreigners contributed to the Bush money train.
(Do I get a gold star for using the word of the day in a sentance?)
…and just because I know the righties wont click on DU….
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364×1912066
Tracy,
My post was meant for Captain. I apologize for any confusion.
Ben,
You are a scientist…right?
You guys are the ones making the claim that DU munitions do all this bad stuff…with no evidence.
Showing me some pictures which could be related to anything is not evidence. Quoting a vetern who “claims” it was DU munitions is not evidence.
Is that the kind of stuff that flys in the scientific community Ben? I don’t have to be a professional scientist, my 8th grade biology class taught me more about the scientific process than I have seen here from you.
Nathan – I only did a very cursory glance the other day for DU stuff. Over the years I have seen innumerable articles on it. I have also posted numerous sites in the past. Unfortunately, right now I do not have the time to do an exhaustive search just to satisfy a military representative.
Perhaps when I am not “up to my ears” in my paying work I will take the time. I tend to have more up-to-date information on things I have been actively involved in – DU is not one of those.
Ironically, DU is a cornerstone to my nuclear power scenario so I am not totally against its use for anything – just its indiscriminate misuse.
BUSH V GORE IS THE CASE THE LEGAL COMMUNITY WANTS TO FLUSH DOWN THE MEMORY HOLE . . . don’t let them
“The heart of Bush v. Gore’s analysis was its holding that the recount was unacceptable because the standards for vote counting varied from county to county. “Having once granted the right to vote on equal terms,” the court declared, “the state may not, by later arbitrary and disparate treatment, value one person’s vote over that of another.” If this equal protection principle is taken seriously, if it was not just a pretext to put a preferred candidate in the White House, it should mean that states cannot provide some voters better voting machines, shorter lines, or more lenient standards for when their provisional ballots get counted — precisely the system that exists across the country right now.
“The first major judicial test of Bush v. Gore’s legacy came in California in 2003. The N.A.A.C.P., among others, argued that it violated equal protection to make nearly half the state’s voters use old punch-card machines, which, because of problems like dimpled chads, had a significantly higher error rate than more modern machines. A liberal three-judge panel of the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit agreed. But that decision was quickly reconsidered en banc —that is, reheard by a larger group of judges on the same court — and reversed. The new panel dispensed with Bush v. Gore in three unilluminating sentences of analysis, clearly finding the whole subject distasteful.
“The dispute in the Sixth Circuit is even sharper. Ohio voters are also challenging a disparity in voting machines, arguing that it violates what the plaintiffs’ lawyer, Daniel Tokaji, an Ohio State University law professor, calls Bush v. Gore’s “broad principle of equal dignity for each voter.” Two of the three judges who heard the case ruled that Ohio’s election system was unconstitutional. But the dissenting judge protested that “we should heed the Supreme Court’s own warning and limit the reach of Bush v. Gore to the peculiar and extraordinary facts of that case.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/15/opinion/15tues4.html?ex=1313294400&en=687375003b802612&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss
So you settle for posting that obvious political crap instead?
LOL
The WHO site was clearly NOT political; however EVERYTHING you post is political crap.
Ben, sorry, but you are wrong.
It is just crap. Plain. With no modifiers.
Ben,
The WHO site didn’t make any of the claims about DU that people here are making.