In a column mentioned earlier on this blog, George Will proved that some conservatives at least are willing to face some obvious lessons about our “war on terror” and how best to fight it. He wrote:
“Cooperation between Pakistani and British law enforcement (the British draw upon useful experience combating IRA terrorism) has validated John Kerry’s belief (as paraphrased by the New York Times Magazine of Oct. 10, 2004) that ‘many of the interdiction tactics that cripple drug lords, including governments working jointly to share intelligence, patrol borders and force banks to identify suspicious customers, can also be some of the most useful tools in the war on terror.’ In a candidates’ debate in South Carolina (Jan. 29, 2004), Kerry said that although the war on terror will be ‘occasionally military,’ it is ‘primarily an intelligence and law enforcement operation that requires cooperation around the world.’”
Kerry was largely right, as the busted plot in London shows: This is, for the most part, about good intelligence and police work and international cooperation — not conventional warfare of the sort we’re waging in Iraq. When will Democrats push a national debate on this point? Or are they afraid of looking weak?
Posted by Randy Scholfield
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161 Comments
THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG!!!
THANK YOU RANDY, THANK YOU!!!
Oh my what could have been, A plan to fight terrorism!!! With Ideas, and possible initiatives that have been proven to work. My oh my, we missed out on that one didnt we!!!
Oh well I guess we will “stay the course” and not “cut and run” or better yet “fight them over there, so we dont have to fight them over here” (the most absurd statement to ever come out of the Bush W.H.).
What part do you guys on the conservative side of the aisle not get?
Well dang pardnah, if we do it Kerry’s way how is we gunna justify spending billions on tanks, airplanes, missles and other Cold War equipment?
Bush’s daddy and the Bin Laden family have too much money tied up in Carlyle which handles a lot of big military contracts to simply give up expensive neverending wars.
You know what would be amazing. If the next president prevented Halliburton from ever doing business again with the american govt. And they cut all military contracts with Carlye, for their suspicious over seas behavoir.
We can only dream!!
Great if we do it YOUR way there would have been no invasion, the possibility of a regional war that would spill out to the U.S. and all of Europe would not be as likely! Israel would be safer since Iran and Syria would not be able to use the actions of the U.S. and Great Briton to inflame the Middle East into a all out war to drive Israel into the sea! We would be concentration on the terrorists and not make terrorists out of these that would have no reason to!
Can you not see the down side of this? Gee what was Kerry thinking when he said that?No the Bush plan for world domination is working just fine! It is about time we all drew up sides and show each other what is what! With several having nuclear arms and pure illogical hatred for one an other….I will bring the hot dogs! this should be on hell of a wiener roust with the entire world in flames!
To quote a wise Harvard graduate:
And we will all bake together when we bake.There’ll be nobody present at the wake.With complete participationIn that grand incineration,Nearly three billion hunks of well-done steak. [okay, so the number's a bit off nowadays...]
Oh we will all char together when we char.And let there be no moaning of the bar.Just sing out a Te DeumWhen you see that I.C.B.M.,And the party will be come-as-you-are.
Oh, we will all burn together when we burn.There’ll be no need to stand and wait your turn.When it’s time for the falloutAnd Saint Peter calls us all out,We’ll just drop our agendas and adjourn.
— Tom Lehrer
So, let me get this straight. You want to continually, for eternity, fight a defensive battle against an enemy that will not stop. An enemy being funded by Rogue Nations who attempt to aquire nuclear weapons, and who undoubtedly would give those weapons to terrorist groups to use against us. Great, that’s the message you want to run on? Fine, tell the American people that. I dare you.
Intel and police work are part of the war, but if you think that they should be the only part then you shouldnt be surprised if the American people refuse to trust you with our safety.
GREAT Post, Heckler!!!
Heckler,By your own logic, we should invade Iran and North Korea, as well as continue throwing lives and money into Iraq. Tell me, Heckler, just how many lives are you willing to see destroyed in your continuing support of this, the worst president ever?
Kerry is right: the British did it the old fashion way, with good intelligence and hard work. Bush invaded a whole country for less.
JM
RUN ON IT! If the Dems are so sure that they are right Run on it. The Clinton/Albright doctrine. That’s the ticket.
The Bush war in Irag has not stopped or prevented a single terrorist attack. The right just doesn’t understand how to fight terrorist. I think it is the War part, of the war on terror, that throws them, and gets them excited.
JM
And the worst President ever title(at least of modern times)goes to Carter. His handling of the wackos in Iran emboldened them. One of them now runs Iran.
“Kerry said that although the war on terror will be ‘occasionally military”
Theres your war Heckler!!!
“Great, that’s the message you want to run on? Fine, tell the American people that. I dare you.”
Uh heck, more than sixty percent of americans AGREE with that message.
And I think Ned Lamont DID run on it.. hehehehehehehe
SUPPORT NED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bottom line:Kerry was correct about the war.
Repugnican response:Jimmy Carter!!Jimmy Carter!!
Pitiful, just pitiful.
heckler – we are more likely to be successful in an OFFENSIVE war against extremism/terrorism if we can find and work with allies in the regions involved. Invading and conquering only creates MORE enemies and eliminates informants.
And as long as we’re on the subject of Kerry, and how great his insight and foresight about this issue was/is…..Let me just say that Kerry was wrong because of…..well, …….
Clinton/Albright!!Clinton/Albright!!
Pitiful, just pitiful.
Expansion of Israeli territory through military force is the only reasonable explanation of why Israel invaded Lebanon. If it was really about those two soldiers they would have infiltrated with special forces on a rescue mission otherwise known as a “black op”. The Israelis have one of the most sophisticated military personnel, weapons and tactics around. I’m sure this fact wasn’t lost on them.
Will – the Israelis have always coveted the land of its neighbors. This covetousness has been justified by TM with the claim that their God gave them everything.
And there is the problem Ben.God also gave the Islamic people the same sacred ground.Why would God do such an awful thing?
Ben
“if we can find and work with allies in the regions involved.”
When you are chasing terrorists in a region where many of the nations and a significant portion of the population supports the terrorists in some fashion it’s kind of hard to get full support that you can count on.
I don’t disagree with the theory, it’s just that as a practical matter in the Middle East there’s a limit to what can be accomplished in that manner.
Heckler you’ve moderated your position since the first post.Admirable.
Tracy
I guess it’s time for me to say something mean and nasty so you all don’t think I’m getting soft.
Say you have a War on Poverty, and a War on Drugs, and a War on Terror. How many wars do you have? Still Zero.
I think we need to declare a “War on Stupid Metaphors”. War means War. Duuuuh.
In their heart of hearts the conservatives know that Kerry is right.
But they’re caught in a syllogism:
All Democrats are wrong.Kerry is a Democrat.
Therefore, Kerry is wrong.
They just can’t bring themselves to admit what every sentient being knows to be true.
Otherwise, they might have to admit that their entire world view is based on the pack of lies that it is . . .
Gentle people,
Of course Kerry was right! He’s always right at least 50% of the time because he has a position on both sides of any policy!
Hank
Conservatives are going to fight the war in Iraq to the last drop of somebody else’s blood . . .
Any other old f**ts around here remember the election of 1992? Clinton won with repeated assertions that “it’s the economy, stupid”?
I think the next election is going to have a much cruder tag line:
“s*** or get off the pot.”
Either the government of Iraq was a clear and present danger to the UNITED STATES or it wasn’t. If it was, we were justified in invading with all the resources at our disposal. If it wasn’t, then we shouldn’t have gone in there at all.
So Bush and Rumsfeld planned (if that’s the word) this half-a**ed excuse for a war, with half the troops they needed and no — NO — thought given to “what happens after we win.”
I demand that my elected officials either support massive troop build UP or DOWN, but anyone who supports the status quo is goin’ down, and this means YOU, Mr. Tiahrt!
How you can call yourself “pro life” and condone understaffed troops is beyond me.
Where’s the swift boaters when you need them?
Hank
Heck, you mean that was just like a holiday cease fire?Damn, I was just gettin’ ready to take you off my ‘ON NOTICE’ board.
I’m sorry, Stephen Colbert is my conservative heroe, so I use his political strategies.
Looks to me like the swift boaters must be lost at sea.
Good point, Alden.
When the US kicked Iraq out of Kuwait, with the entire free world providing troops and the UN fully behind it, the US sent almost half a million men.
In Iraq, we’re down to ONE effective ally (England) and 136,000 troops. That’s maybe a quarter of what we need to pacify the country, assuming the country COULD be pacified.
So, what we see is that not only did BushCo. invade Iraq based on a pack of lies, they didn’t even invade and occupy it well.
They’re incompetent even at illegal and unpopular wars.
Boo yah!
Which Kerry’s strategy was right? Was it the one of him being for the war after he was against it and just prior to him being both simultaneously for and against the war?
Imagine the following binary choice:
You can either have the government of country X love America, while the people hate us, or you can have the government hate us while the people love us?
Which would you rather have? If those were your only two choices?
I argue, you would prefer the latter — because, see, you can DECLARE WAR on a government. You can _do_ something about it. Fighting hatred amongst the masses is a lot harder. But I contend it can be done.
See, you need a “civilian diplomatic corps” — thousands, even millions, of people, in the employ of the U.S. government, charged with helping make the lives of individual citizens better wherever they happen to be.
Hezbollah did not become powerful in Lebanon only through force of arms — they won the hearts of the people through charitable acts. That is why Israel is having such a hard time digging them out.
We can use the same approach in _our_ favor. Yes, it will take years — good diplomacy always does. There are no short cuts. You can’t ignore foreign policy like Clinton did for 8 years and not expect problems. You have to _pay_attention_.
So, the question from skeptics is, where are we going to get all these diplomats from without breaking the budget?
Ah, now, there, see, is where I introduce my solution for the illegal immigration problem and the underfunding of social security… :-)
Hank–
The Swift-boat liars have gone to that nether-world limbo where the neo-cons keep their spittle-flecked corps of liars until the next election cycle.
They all live together in a summer camp environment–Linda Tripp, Paula Jones, Ken Starr, John O’Neill, the Arkansas state troopers, Col. Patterson.
They’ve got them comfortably esconched in little cabins where they watch Fox news and listen to Bill O’Reilly all day UNTIL the next election cycle when they can make the rounds of the conservative talk shows etc.
The Washington Post says that not only is Bush losing the “Security Mom” voters, but so are the Republicans. The Post claims that this swing voting block was crucial in Bush’s 2004 “win”.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/17/AR2006081701484.html
I think the Dems should take Heckler’s advice and run on the issue of the FURARed Iraq war policy.
I am astounded by the lethargy demonstrated by the usually politically nimble Bush team. What is the matter with them? Do they want the last two years of Bush’s reign to be back-to-back congressional investigations? Puzzling … to say the least.
I wonder what October surprise it’ll be this year?
Invading Iran isn’t going to work. That’ll just prove beyond any doubt that Bush Co is stark, raving nuts.
Reagan had negotiated with the Ayatollah to hold the 57 American hostages until after the election. Too bad for the hostages but it was good for President Alzheimers, wasn’t it?
Pride, Steven. Simple pride.
Pride goeth before a fall . . .
CapnAmerica
You need a little cream in that coffee, cuts the BITTERNESS a little.
Which Kerry’s strategy was right?
Well the first strategy was to not represent twits like LRB.
The swift boaters are busy with John Murtha and Judge Anna.
Witness Hank’s opening salvo yesterday. Start swiftboating the judge as “soft on terra”.
Maybe she’s just “strong on the constitution” or a “stand up gal for the rule of law”?
Nawwwww. According to the neocons, she is corrupt and soft on terror.
Heheheh. I think she is strong on “no hereditary kings”.
who needs swift boaters when you have lrb?
Could be Capn.
But, I have even wondered if Bush, et al. are starting to realize that they cannot seriously defend the indefensible. It is like they are seeing that they don’t have anything to run on, and therefore are not even going to try. For whatever reason, it seems very odd to me.
It seems like to me, also, that the Bushbot type posters on these threads are more subdued and post less often than previously.
I think maybe the tide has finally turned. Better late than never.
This is a war crime. Click the before and after of Lebanon.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14252208
“It is like they are seeing that they don’t have anything to run on, and therefore are not even going to try. For whatever reason, it seems very odd to me.”
Steven, they arent worried. They have an ace in the hole. It’s called DIEBOLD.
Bitter, Heck?
Why would I be bitter about seeing American democracy struck down by the Supreme Court in 2000, in seeing gays red-baited, in seeing 2700 patriotic Americans soldiers dead in Iraq for a pack of lies.
F**k, man!
If you’re not outraged and BITTER, you’re not paying attention.
Does it really matter if Kerry was right? The US is in this insane Iraq with no end in sight because George W. is going to “stay the course”. Nothing will change unless and untill the American people boot out their politicians that are in the “stay the course” policy. If that means every incumbent goes – Democrat or Republican – then so be it.
This is off subject a bit, but I was wondering if 3600 Iraquis were killed last month in an nation of 25 million, how would that relate to our country with a population of 300 million?
I came up with 43,000. If we had that many of us violently killed in one month, what do you suppose we would call it? What would Bush call it?? …OOOOPS?
For the record, Kerry was never “for the war.” Kerry voted to give the President the authority to go to war, the same authority he would want for himself if he were President.
He was told by Bush Co. it was necessary to force Saddam to comply with the weapons inspectors.
In fact, this was another Bush Co. lie. They forced the Dems in the Senate into a no-win vote–if they voted “yes,” then they were FOR the war. If they voted “no,” they were Al Qaeda sympathizers who should just move to Russia.
In other words, Bush lied and played politics with a decision that should have only been made after the soberest of consideration of all of government–the decision to go to war.
“Steven, they arent worried. They have an ace in the hole. It’s called DIEBOLD.”
KFG,
I have wondered if it isn’t a “Ropa-dope” type strategy as used by Mohammed Ali. They are saying forget the ‘06 elections, 06 to 08 the Dems will be all over us, they will look like the obstructionist partisans, and our boy (McCain, maybe) will run on being bipartisan “uniter” — and, will ultimately win given that the electorate will be tired of partisan bickering. What doesn’t fit here, is that Rove has never conceded an inch of gound on anything — so, this surely is not correct.
He’s not conceeding.
HE IS TRUSTING DIEBOLD.
Funny, but the only election since 2000 where the exit polling data MATCHED the vote count…
…was where they were NOT using diebold machines.
Why campaign when you have diebold?
What, me worry?
“who needs swift boaters when you have lrb?”
I would never accuse John Kerry of falsifying his war record.
I’ll leave that to the people who served with him.
Gster,
I did the same arithmetic and got nearly the same answer as you did – mine was 43,200.
That kind of a loss would have to be a big deal here.
The 3600 loss was in a month time period, wasn’t it?
This is a tragic situation, and there news stories leaking out dribble, by dribble that Bush is starting to “get it”. Instead of being critical of the media for not covering the “good news” in Iraq, team Bush is referring to the country as presenting “huge challenges” – for this president this change in message signals that reality may be dawning on him.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060817/pl_nm/bush_iraq_dc_4
Steven- Thanks for running the math- I checked twice and I got the same figure you did. It is my understanding that last month’s losses in Iraq for civilians was around 3600. Where do we start calling it a Civil War? I’m sure there’s some appropriate BUSHSPEAK that trivializes it, but to me , the numbers are eye-opening to say the least!!
Comments- anyone?
KFG,
I agree that the Bush trend of “privatizing” our election process is very troubling.
Greg Palast (_Armed Madhouse_, 2006) claims that Bush/Rove, et al. don’t really have to adopt very sophisticated methods of influencing elections. He claims the easy way for Bush, et al. to win is to simply not count those opposing votes. The preceding is done by putting the most unreliable and old voting technology in areas where there is likely to be a large number of Democratic voters. Palast provides pretty convincing evidence that this was what happened with the Indian Vote in New Mexico in 2004.
So, Bush really doesn’t need fancy Diebold code, because simply failing to do the government’s business works better. And if Bush is good at anything, it is failing to do the government’s business. And of course, Bush always uses his failure of doing his job as evidence the government doesn’t work — like he is an innocent victim of it, too. The guy has balls, you have to give him that. He is like the kid who killed both of his parents and then threw himself on the mercy of the court because he was an orphan. :-)
“I would never accuse John Kerry of falsifying his war record.”I’ll leave that to the people who served with him.”
Which would include how of the Swift Boat liars??? — that’s correct, ZERO.
“Which would include how of the Swift Boat liars??? ”
You mean the guys who served with John Kerry and testified that he made most of the stuff up.
Yup, they’re all liars.
Must be.
Have to be.
There is no other explanation.
The veterans in the Swift Boat group never served with Kerry LRB, you need to double check your facts.
I assume that Randy then agrees with the electronic eavesdropping?
It’s not like the Bush Admin hasn’t been fighting the war on every front.
What silly bias Scholfield shows.
“The veterans in the Swift Boat group never served with Kerry LRB, you need to double check your facts.”
http://www.swiftvets.com/index.php
“If you’re not outraged and BITTER, you’re not paying attention.” Capn
They’re not bitter Capn because they are in favor of this lunacy. They are the mindless, gutless puppets who love their little club more than they love their country or the Constitution that defines this country. As long as they have the approval of their little friends they are happy. They are political groupies.
What makes this sad is that while they are for this war and invading every country that doesn’t see things as we do, they have little to lose. How many of these republikans are currently serving in the Middle East? How many have family members currently serving? Life is good from the cheap seats!
It all sounds like common sense stuff that the administration is already doing. Do you think Randy, that “good intelligence and police work and international cooperation” is not a cornerstone of the Bush administration efforts at fighting terror?
LRB, the swift boat whores have been shown to be nothing but a bunch of partisan liars. Like their pimp W, and most of the right, they have trouble with facts. So perhaps you could find a source for your claims someplace other than the home page of these whores.
And because I am in a kind mood this afternoon I’ll help you get started.
http://www.billingsgazette.com/newdex.php?display=rednews/2004/09/01/build/state/25-swift-boat.inc
http://www.billingsgazette.com/newdex.php?display=rednews/2004/09/01/build/state/25-swift-boat.inc
Where’s the swift boaters when you need them?
Hank I am sure that was what Lieberman was thinking during his campaign !
Blast! Here is the second link that was supposed to be above.
http://www.factcheck.org/article231.html
Here is a link to FactCheck.org’s deconstruction of the Swift Boat Myths.
http://www.factcheck.org/article231.html
LRB? – providing a link to the Swift Boat Liars website? That’s supposed to be objective information? Hmmm…
k,I can see that great minds think alike. Though, yours is a bit faster than mine…
“LRB, the swift boat whores ….”
An ad hominem argument has the basic form:
1. A makes claim X.2. There is something objectionable about A.3. Therefore claim X is false.The first statement is called a ‘factual claim’ and is the pivot point of much debate. The last statement is referred to as an ‘inferential claim’ and represents the reasoning process. There are two types of inferential claim, explicit and implicit.
Ad hominem is one of the best-known of the logical fallacies usually enumerated in introductory logic and critical thinking textbooks. Both the fallacy itself, and accusations of having committed it, are often brandished in actual discourse (see also Argument from fallacy). As a technique of rhetoric, it is powerful and used often, despite its inherent incorrectness.
In contrast, an argument that instead relies (fallaciously) on the positive aspects of the person arguing the case is known as appeal to authority.
LRB,Thanks for the logic lesson. Back to the topic, you were going to defend the Swift Boat Vets claims as being truthful? How would you rebut the FactCheck.org information? We’re waiting for it…
Nah Steven, I just type faster:)
Hey, Ms. “I’m Smarter than You Are” LRB?
Ever heard of PLAGIARISM?
When you quote stuff verbatim, you have to cite your source. Otherwise, you pretend that YOU are the source, which is a damned lie.
Here’s the source that LRB stole from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
By the way, am I the only one who appreciates the bitter irony of hearing LRB complain about “ad homenim” attacks?
The Swift-boat liars did NOTHING BUT ad homenim John Kerry for eight months leading up to the election.
Shoot, this isn’t even the pot calling the kettle black. This is a giant malignant tumor calling a pimple “a disease.”
Oh, sure, ad-hominem attacks are fun — but my favorite logical fallacy is still the false dichotomy. It’s so subtle and easy to slip into the discussion, and hardly anyone notices.
Very impressive LRB. You can cut and paste from Wikipedia, although you should give credit since without it this is nothing more than plagiarism. However you should have read the entire entry (provided of course you could have understood it). You would have found that it also said “…asserting that someone’s argument is wrong and/or he is wrong to argue at all purely because of something discreditable/not-authoritative about the person or those persons cited…” (notice the quotes?) While I MAY have insulted them, I’m not discrediting their claims because I’m calling them whores and liars or because they have lied in the past. I’m discrediting their claims because there are FACTS to the contrairy. There are facts from much more reputable sources. They cannot be considered a reputable source since they continuously lie; this in turn casts doubt on their credibility to be taken for their word and any evidence they propose becomes suspect until verified by an alternate source with crediability. There comes a point (except for republikans) where you hear so many lies that you automatically don’t believe anything a person or group claims. This is the case with the swift boaters.
Now that the English and logic lessons are over would you care to address the links Steve and I have posted? Or would you rather continue ignoring the bad bad liberals and believe the swift boat whores are just a bunch of swell guys trying to fight for Truth, Justice, and the American way?
AAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!
I’VE BEEN SWIFTBOATED BY CAPN!!!!
lol
And let’s not forget our dysfunctional media that helped LRB and others gullibly believe the Swift-boat lies.Many example at Daily Howler, such as http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh082504.shtml—Media should’ve given only a few days of coverage, to expose their lies, contradictions, and tactics.
“Thanks for the logic lesson. Back to the topic, you were going to defend the Swift Boat Vets claims as being truthful? How would you rebut the FactCheck.org information? We’re waiting for it…”
But one thing is quite clear. Either John Kerry or a group of vets are lying.
I’ll side with vets over a career politican anyday.
“However you should have read the entire entry (provided of course you …”
I stopped when you called the vets whores. Anything else you had to say wasn’t worth reading at that point.
GREAT. LRB admits the vets were lying for a politician.I would never trust vets who lie for politicians.
“I would never trust vets who lie for politicians.”
That’s odd, you sounded like a liberal before.
The Swift Boat Veterans have soundly been debunked throughout the media and only someone as gullible as LRB would still find them credible or think this has anything to do with the issue at hand (that John Kerry is right about fighting terrorism which draft dodger Bush isn’t).
LRB, are you upset because Kerry was right, because Kerry won the election or because Kerry is a decorated war hero? Or is it because Bush is the complete opposite (draft dodger, failed war president, lost two elections)?
BTW, why haven’t you enlisted yet? The Bush administration screwed the military up so much they’ve raised the recruitment age up to 42 and will let Klansmen and Neo-nazis sign up now.
washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21239-2004Aug21.html
And you still sound like a neocon.You can’t fix stupid.DEE DEE DEE
LRB,
“Either John Kerry or a group of vets are lying.”
Actually, its John Kerry, his former crewmen, and Navy records — versus a “group of vets” that don’t seem to be objective and unbiased.
LRB–
You should put some ice on that arse of yours.
It got kicked so badly, it’s really going to hurt in the morning.
Cosmos- Good point, I’ve wondered why that wasn’t considered long ago.
Kerry came back from the war and lied before Congress. Then he went to Paris and consorted with the enemy while still a reserve officer. You going to believe him or a bunch of men who served with him. I went through the Factcheck.org business and found nothing difinitive, just a lot of contradictory information. You can take what you want from it but it is anything but difinitive refutation of anything. As for the statement by Doug that “The Swift Boat Veterans have soundly been debunked throughout the media”- this is the same “media” that has been rife with Rathergate type scandals for 6 years now. Who’s being gullible?
As to the topic at hand- Kerry having the right strategy. What good does that strategy do when dealing with 2 rogue states (Iran, run by a religious zealot, and pre-war Iraq run by a tyrannical dictator) who are bent on aquiring nuclear weapons. What good does that strategy do in preventing one of those rogue states from providing a nuke to a terrorist group bent on using it on Israel, Brittain, the U.S., or another one of our allies. You can sit around and wait for the inevitable to happen, hoping your intelligience and law enforcement agencies can stop an attack from happening, or you can go out and prevent those two nations from getting a nuke.
If Democrats prefer to run on the “law enforcement” method well I say run,run,run.
It’s not a matter of a bunch of “rag tag terrorists” taking over America, it’s about a bunch or “rag tag terrorists” taking out a major city and devastating our economy.
I should imagine that folks like Heckler jump entertainingly when startled!
JR
No, I calmly draw my weapon hope for an excuse to empty a 13 round mag. of .45 ACP.(insert stupid little winking yellow smiley thingy here)
Heckler, we’ve been all through this for years now.It’s obvious that preemptive unilateral strikes against rogue nations is not working.Stay the course is not working.Either strike up the draft and put half a million men there or get the hell out at the first opportunity.That’s right. If you are not going to give our troops the numbers of boots on the ground we need, then get out.Why did GW ignore the best military advice in the world concerning troop strength?Why?Does he hate our troops?He must want this thing to go on forever!What about that shit Heck?
Damn Heck, you are getting a sense of humor!First you moderate, then you jest,we’ll make you a democrat yet!
“I’ll side with vets over a career politican anyday.”
Wait a minute…
Isn’t LogicBoy using an ad hominem argument here.
1. A makes claim X.(John Kerry describes his military career)2. There is something objectionable about A.(John Kerry is a career politician)3. Therefore claim X is false.(Therefore John Kerry is untrustworthy and is lying…)
Sorry, LogicBoy, YOU ARE BUSTED!
And, I am pretty sure if I was so inclined to waste my time, I could find many other examples of your ad hominem attacks.
Heckler,
You’re my favorite conservative poster and I think you are likely a good man. But you have a blind spot on this whole Swift Boat thing.
Also, Heckler you’re not defending the invasion of Iraq are you? Even outlander the other day acknowledged in retrospect it appeared to be a mistake (I think that is a fair summary).
Do you want your party to run on the Iraq war? I am betting that Bush, et al. during this campaign season are going to act like it is not even happening.
GOOD BUST STEVEN.Book him, Dan-o.
“I stopped when you called the vets whores. Anything else you had to say wasn’t worth reading at that point.”
Aw did I offend you? Well maybe you needed to be offended. The truth isn’t pretty so there is no reason to sugar coat the ugly truth. And the ugly truth is that the swift boat vets took money from conservative backers to tell lies to discredit John Kerry and his service. So I stand by my description of the swift boaters as whores, and if you don’t like it TOUGH SHIT!!
“You should put some ice on that arse of yours.
It got kicked so badly, it’s really going to hurt in the morning.”
Let’s summarize.
You: John Kerry was a war hero.
Me: That’s not what he fellow servicemen said.
You: Liar. You just got your ass kicked.
So predictable.
“1. A makes claim X.(John Kerry describes his military career)2. There is something objectionable about A.(John Kerry is a career politician)3. Therefore claim X is false.(Therefore John Kerry is untrustworthy and is lying…)
Sorry, LogicBoy, YOU ARE BUSTED!”
1. John Kerry Describes his Military career.
2. His fellow servicemen say he is lying.
3. Since you adore John Kerry the fellow servicemen are liars.
or
1. John Kerry is a career politician.
2. Career politicians are always dishonest.
3. John Kerry never told a lie.
Shall we go on?
LRB_You haven’t made sense by now, why go on? You’re boot strapping! Trying to lift yourself by pulling on your boot straps- doen’t make any sense does it? Oh well.
I agree with independent. All this “swiftboater” crap and what this somebody said and did and that somebody said and did will not change things. Learn from history, even recent history. Obviously it takes BushCo more history to learn from, or things would’ve change in Iraq after the realization hit that things weren’t going right…like in the first year of the occupation of the country.
‘LRB_You haven’t made sense by now, why go on? You’re boot strapping! Trying to lift yourself by pulling on your boot straps- doen’t make any sense does it? Oh well.”
Watching you liberals trying to make a cogent argument is actually quite a lot of fun.
You are such shills for the democratic party you have lost all touch with reality.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occams_razorCommonly stated as: “The simplest answer is usually the correct answer.” Which is “simplest”?
1) John Kerry is a liar, the crew that served with him (eyewitnesses) are liars, AND the NAVY records are inaccurate?or2) A group of vets that contradict themselves, rely on hearsay, and are funded by lots of Repub $’s are liars.
http://www.factcheck.org/article231.html
LRB, LogicBoy, in the above FactCheck entry they report that there is converging evidence by way of eye-witness testimony and military records that back up what Kerry says and refutes the claims of the swift boat vets. Want to talk about losing touch with reality…
LRB; “Watching you liberals trying to make a cogent argument is actually quite a lot of fun.”
If that drivel was addressed to me, I’m an Independant voter , because unlike you, I know that no one Party has all the right ideas, right people nor the right answers . I think before I pull the voting handle- you ought to try it, unless it’s too painful! Along the way, you might actually open your mind up and see the world through a bigger knothole than you evidently currently use!!
Uh, that is a knot hole, isn’t it- I don’t want to embarrass you.Hmmm??
LRB is a troll — feeding him/her only encourages him/her. A word for the wise…
[q]1) John Kerry is a liar, the crew that served with him (eyewitnesses) are liars, AND the NAVY records are inaccurate?or2) A group of vets that contradict themselves, rely on hearsay, and are funded by lots of Repub $’s are liars.”
That’s simple.
John Kerry is the liar. His defense was funded by liberals. And all liberals are liars.
Liberal Debate Rule #2.
When losing the argument, call your opponent a troll.
Rule #1 is calling me a Nazi. I suppose that’s next …
Steven-Yeah, and it gets real boring,real fast! This guy/thing is its own toilet paper.
Steven,LRB may be a troll… or maybe can’t read, and/or unable to thinking logically?
Anyway, it’s fun to watch LRB accuse the Navy of being “funded by liberals”. Don’t see that very often!
“Anyway, it’s fun to watch LRB accuse the Navy of being “funded by liberals”. Don’t see that very often!”
Sorry, you are right. Liberals in Congress have consistantly refused funding for the US Navy.
My bad.
Cosmos-I’m getting that sometime a liberal either turned LRB down , or they wouldn’t let him/her in! What do you think?
LRB have you actually read any of the comments posted here? If so why do you keep pressing the same point that has been debunked several times by several different posters?
“Cosmos-I’m getting that sometime a liberal either turned LRB down , or they wouldn’t let him/her in! What do you think?”
To be honest I use to be a liberal. I even worked for Hubert Humphrey campaign in Chicago in 1968. We worked hard getting the African American vote out.
After the primary we had a big bash downtown. There Mayor Daley remarked that he could always deliver the n*gger vote for the democrats. Everyonelaughed.
I stopped being a democrat that day.
Never looked back.
“LRB have you actually read any of the comments posted here? If so why do you keep pressing the same point that has been debunked several times by several different posters?”
Because the charges of fraud by the Swift Boat Veterans against Kerry has not been “debunked” by anything other than the stale propaganda from the DNC.
I sooner trust the men who were there than you. Why do you ask?
Then read an article about a person who was there.
http://www.billingsgazette.com/newdex.php?display=rednews/2004/09/01/build/state/25-swift-boat.inc
The swift boaters lied about this, why should the rest of their claims be taken at face value without further validation?
“The swift boaters lied about this, why should the rest of their claims be taken at face value without further validation?”
Kerry Lied. He also collaborated with the enemy. He is a traitor to those who fought and died.
http://horse.he.net/~swiftpow/index.php?topic=SwiftVetQuotes
I wouldn’t trust John Kerry to give me correct change.
LRB-”Kerry Lied. He also collaborated with the enemy. He is a traitor to those who fought and died.”
Troll talk- BYE!
More than 250 Swift boat veterans have now signed an open letter to Senator Kerry challenging his fitness to serve as commander-in-chief of America’s armed forces.
They must be all liars, right?
http://www.swiftvets.com/article.php?story=20040629220813790
Troll talk- BUBYE!
I have questions for you LRB. Lets see if they get any answers THIS time.
Did you vote for bush in 2000 and 2004?
Do you believe bush won legitimately in 2000 and 2004?
Yes or no will do.
I have questions for you LRB. Lets see if they get any answers THIS time.
Did you vote for bush in 2000 and 2004?
Do you believe bush won legitimately in 2000 and 2004?
Yes or no will do.”
No.
Yes.
Anything else?
Of course I have more. YOU LRB are at least interesting. There are shallower posters I have more fun with.
If you did not vote for bush, just who DID you vote for?
Too you, what is THE most pressing issue of our time?
Everybody:Ignore this troll. He wants to elevate himself to being an Nazi. Think of him as being somewhat less useful than Ian.
Tell him, bye, bye.
I don’t see how anyone can be “elevated” to the position of Nazi, that’s pretty much a step down, even for a Republican.
Agreed Doug,But we’re talking about that asshole who shall not be named…
Now now
I know LRB from her very first post. She is evasive and elusive but occasionally creative.
I just defended ya LRB. Though your embrace of the swiftboat liars is troubling and not consistent with your “above the fray” cheshire cat style.
“And all liberals are liars.” LRB?
When did I ever lie?
Please ignore me, don’t feed me, I’m just a troll from under the bridge, seeking for some red herring!
I’m with Stephen. LRB can’t be reasoned with. Let’s stop trying.
“If you did not vote for bush, just who DID you vote for?”
I voted for the independent candidate. As I always do.
“Too you, what is THE most pressing issue of our time?”
http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=null
If you click on that link, “a remote system will try to access your windows media player.”
I would deny access if I were you.
“If you click on that link, “a remote system will try to access your windows media player.”
That’s because it’s a video.
I’m not going to post something that will harm your computer.
I’m the last one here trying to give ya a chance LRB. I asked a simple question as to your take the most pressing issue of our time and you toss me a link?
The more pressing issue of our time is the war we are in with Islam.
Did you watch the link? My guess is no.
Your guess is right. And I am glad I did not bother with your link.
I’m sorry LRB. I am not afraid of Islam. I am afraid of those like you who peddle fear to distract from things that scare the shit outta me.Again sorry, but you are either an irrational frightened kook or a shill to create irrational frightened kooks.
“And I am glad I did not bother with your link.”
Ignorance must be bliss.
“I am not afraid of Islam.”
Do you think this guy was afraid before they sawed his head off?
http://intelwire.egoplex.com/2004/cap1.jpg
So fear is your most pressing issue?
Fear is not a good place for rational thought. A fearful person is not a credible source of information if the fear is not rational. I see above and elsewhere that you flirt with marginalizing yourself into irrelevance LRB.
“So fear is your most pressing issue?”
Let me guess, you spend your entire life in Bumblefuck Kansas, right?
Goodbye LRB.
“Let me guess, you spend your entire life in Bumblefuck Kansas, right?”
So you are so worldly right? You are so keenly aware of the facts and situation that you KNOW that we should be very afraid? Well hate to bust your bubble but previous posts do not indicate any signficant intelligence is present between your ears. You routinely ignore facts, quote known lies, and argue points from the least defensable point. But keep your unwarrented high opinion of yourself, it is all you have.
Looks like the Bush administration has spent a trillion dollars on weapons that are practically useless in combating some guy wielding an AK-47 while riding a camel.
boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2006/08/19/major_arms_soar_to_twice_pre_911_cost/
Fiscal conservative, my ass. It’s funny how conservatives will bitch about a small property tax increase but when it comes to wasting a trillion dollars they remain silent and supportive.
“Looks like the Bush administration has spent a trillion dollars on weapons that are practically useless in combating some guy wielding an AK-47 while riding a camel.”
But the weapons Clinton bought are just peachy-keeney.
Perhaps if Clinton paid as much attention to world affairs as he did the polishing of his penis by White House interns we wouldn’t be in Iraq toady.
“So you are so worldly right? ”
So far in 2006 I have been to the UK, Ireland, Mexico (3 times), Canada, Japan South Korea, and Vietnam.
Have you ever been out of Kansas?
Yeah LRB and perhaps if folks on the right had let Clinton do his job instead of witch hunting his personal life 911 would have never happened.
“Yeah LRB and perhaps if folks on the right had let Clinton do his job instead of witch hunting his personal life 911 would have never happened”
Would that “job” include perjury before a Federal Grand Jury? You know, that little matter that got Penis-Boy in trouble.
LRB a well traveled kook is still a kook. What you are credible cause you are a kook that gets around?
I can find elsewhwere your cheshire cat like attempts to moderate yourself above partisanship. “Penis boy”? I think you are coming out for us now. Independent my ass. There aint anything about you left of a right wing talking point.
I’m with you, JR!
This LRB person insists she’s a “progressive,” yet she argues that all of Islam supports the violent overthrow of the United States, that W’s policies protect us and that if we knew what was good for us, we’d all support W and the neo-con agenda and hate the NY Times.
Somehow, I don’t see that jibing with “Fighting Bob” Lafayette who opposed the US entry into WWI, who opposed arming merchant marine ships (for which he was called “a skunk who should be hanged by Theo. Roosevelt), and for FREEDOM OF SPEECH. He also, according to Wikipedia, “campaigned for child labor laws, social security, women’s suffrage, and other progressive reforms. He opposed the prosecution of Eugene V. Debs and other opponents of the war and played a key role in initiating the investigation of the Teapot Dome Scandal during the Harding Administration.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._La_Follette%2C_Sr.
Does any of that sound like anything LRB writes? She’s about as “progressive” as Joe Williams is “independent.”
Oops, Fighting Bob LA FOLLETE, Sr.
My bad . . .
LRB – for such a well-traveled person you sure have a filthy mouth:
“Bumblefuck”
“Penis boy”
I sure hope you don’t talk like that when you are abroad – I sure wouldn’t want anyone think that you represent what Americans are like. We have enough trouble with Bush doing that!
LRB,
If we are truly at war with islam then why not simply expel ALL muslims from the West? If we are truly in a life or death struggle then why has shrub increased the amount of muslims coming here as refugees, asylum seekers, diversity lottery winners and as students. Also, why are our borders wide open? If millions of wetback vermin and tons of narcotics can cross, it should be a simple matter for some ragheads with a suitcase nuke to do the same, right?
Ian T. Santiago: Blog Realist
“I can find elsewhwere your cheshire cat like attempts to moderate yourself above partisanship. “Penis boy”? I think you are coming out for us now. Independent my ass. There aint anything about you left of a right wing talking point.”
Let’s see if you can wrap you mind around this …
George W Bush – Moron, has no right to be President.
Bill Clinton – Should be in jail for rape.
Al Gore – Lost his home state, the election and ruined every future election in the process.
John Kerry – He’s the bigest fan of John Kerry. Would sell your children into slavery to get a vote.
Loe Leiberman – An honerable man who is begining to see the tru nature of the democrats.
John Edwards – Invoked dead spirits during a trial. Not worth a shit.
Dick Cheney – He is The Man. The same people have been talking about for decades. As in, “The Man is keeping me down”.
Donald Rumsfeld – Copundn’t run a bicycle shop on his own. Much less America’s war against Islam.
Ted Kenedy – Should be in prison for murder.
Hillary Clinton – The further she can distance herself from her turgid, erect husband, the better her life can become.
Condolleeza Rice – Far too smart to be in this White House.
Rudolf Gulianni – Odds on favorite to be the next President.
“If millions of wetback vermin and tons of narcotics can cross, it should be a simple matter for some ragheads with a suitcase nuke to do the same, right?”
You are correct. And the chances of this happening are probably 75%.
Perhaps after millions of Americans die some liberals will discover we are at war.
How worldly you are LRB. For the record I have been to Japan, Korea, Mexico, Canada, Germany (to include the former East Germany), Luxembourg, Holland, Spain, Portugal, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Honduras, and Belize to name a few (I’m missing a couple and I can’t remember just yet). So your little list of places doesn’t mean jack. Now since we have compared passport stamps how about something a little more telling. While you were overseas what did you do? Did you go out away from the Americanized areas and talk to the people? Did you actually sit down and have (as much as possible) a conversation with them? Or did you just hang around where most Americans do, where everyone speaks English, and talk your BS? Don’t think you’re all that because you’ve been through a customs checkpoint. It takes a lot more than that to be worldly.
However your reply is very telling. You are just another self-righteous American dumbass with an unduly high opinion of yourself trying to convert the world your way of thinking. And what is truly sad is that you are too ignorant to realize that you and people like you are the cause of most of the problems in the world, i.e. Iraq.
“So your little list of places doesn’t mean jack.”
Oh dear, my list were just places I’ve been in just 2006.
Considering I’ve spent 30 years of my life helping place High School exchange students I can say I’ve met my share of families. Probably a lot more than you have.
I get more than 400 birthday cars from around the world.
Do you?
Wow, I’ll bet insurance on those 400 cars is astronomical!
LRB sounds like a snotty little stuck-up dillatante. What is amazing to me is the potty language from a self-proclaimed sophisticate.
Ben, she is nothing more than a wanna-be. “I get more than 400 birthday (cards) from around the world.” And your point is…..? You help people; I would not have guessed that about you. Helping others is a very noble thing to do (and there is NO sarcasm intended there). But it does not mean you are worldly or intellectual. You may have met more families, how many wanted your company and an exchange of ideas? How many wanted something from you? There is a difference. Look at people when they are in a job interview and look at them when they are on the street. Often they are two very different people.
The fact that those are the places you visited in 2006 is irrelevant. I have spent anywhere from 2 weeks to 2 years at the places I have been, I have worked with them. Do you think you got to know people better by spending a few days a year with them? I call the people I have met my friends. Can you say the same?
The badge of honor I wear is that I am a better person for having known them. I have had opportunity to share thoughts and ideas with them and I have learned to see events and ideas from another person’s perspective. I have learned that there is more to life than badges and plaques. I have learned that success cannot be measured by a bank account or a box of cards. I have learned that to be called friend is the highest honor any person can bestow me. What have you learned?
“What have you learned?”
I have learned that people around the world are the same. Except for American liberals. They are a species onto themselves.
While the most rabid ex-soviet apparatchik can let go once in a while the American version carries his seething, burning hatred of all things not like himself to the point of mental illness.
LRB,
I could say the same for some conservatives and their brothers, the neocons.
“LRB,
I could say the same for some conservatives and their brothers, the neocons.”
That’s because you have the liberal disease.
LRB you ARE a disease.
BUT OF COURSE! THAT IS WHAT THEY PAY ME FOR!
And to think I was expecting an intelligent reply. LRB you are truly nothing more than what everyone here has accused you of being, a troll. You pick the easiest question I have posted and can only try to spit venom. But as is par for course with you, you screw it up. You cannot comprehend much of what you read and are incapable of verifying facts for yourself. You most likely rely on word of mouth from a trusted group of informants (friends?) believing they are absolutely true. You are nothing more than a puppet and that is all you will ever be. You do not possess the capability to be anything more. I feel sorry for you. It is a sad existence but one you rightfully deserve.
“That’s because you have the liberal disease.”
LRB,
Is that your best shot?
Liberal Disease seems to be yet another conservative talking point and right out of the Washington Times, owned by who? No! Not the Moonie leader! Heaven forbid!