It is certainly newsworthy that about 13 percent of men between 30 and 55 reportedly aren’t working, compared to 5 percent in the late 1960s. And that federal disability insurance is the fastest-growing entitlement program, and that 25 percent of its recipients are men in this age group. But I’m not convinced that a big driver of these stats is that lazy men are deciding they would rather not work than take a job that they think is beneath them, as a New York Times article portrayed.
Sure, there is some of this. But our economy has changed dramatically from the 1960s, and it is much more difficult for men (and women) who have been laid off — especially from outsourced manufacturing jobs — to find other work that pays more than a Wal-Mart greeter makes.
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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41 Comments
Phillip Brownlee: “Don’t blame lazy men for unemployed stats.”
WHY NOT?
Ill agree with JW, why not blame them?
“lazy men are deciding they would rather not work than take a job that they think is beneath them,”
I see that mentality allot from the Aircraft workers, especially Union ones. I heard over and over again when I worked at one of the big 4 aircraft companies (non-union, non-manufacturing job) that they deserve more money, they cant have “automation” on the line because it will take away jobs, and that they are skilled workers that cant possibly be replaced.
Than some of those same people’s jobs get sent to Mexico and they get laid off. Certainly seems to me that their jobs are replaceable.
My point is, they think they are better than what they are. They wont go work at Walmart to feed their families, they would rather stay at home and wait to be recalled and live off the system.
Ive seen it many times, my former daycare person’s husband got laid off from the Boeing / Spirit sale. He wasn’t hired back because of his attitude and of course he blamed everyone except for himself. He refused to get another job except for something equaling his $24/hr riveting job. He was unemployed for over a year, his wife had to make enough to cover the bills.
I call that Lazy as well as irresponsible. Some of these people live so far out side of their means that its ridiculous.
More economic genius from the editorial board. Government subsidizes something and their surprised they got more of it.
Nope, it must be a lack of opportunity. And they should be able to do nothing and always get a job that pays the same. Even if their the Milkman.
Is it Phillip Brownlee or Galahad/LeftHook/DemsRising?
There have been times that I have had to work two jobs to make ends meet. Unemployment was not an option because I was able to work. Did I like working two jobs? No! But that’s what it took and I did it.
People of got to quit thinking that businesses and the government owe them something. If you do your job at 110% business owes you something then and it is called a pay check. Surprise! If you work you get paid. Government does not owe you anything and you quit expecting it to.
Get a job and be proud. If it is digging ditches then you should be the best ditch digger there ever was. Make yourself proud and your family proud!
It’s nice to see that the right-wing has a new target for its outrage than the “welfare queens” (code word for black women with a lot of kids).
At least their getting closer to the truth–the real drain on our society is white men.
The white men in the White House.
“They’re” not “their,” doh!
STS, ditch digging pays pretty well.I’ve lost a couple of good paying jobs during my life and had to start over. It takes time and work, but it’s doable. Here’s how it works. First, you get a job. It may not pay well, but at least it brings in some money. Do your job, but watch for something better. You may have to move, but there’s always something better if you really look.I’m sympathetic to aircraft workers but let’s face it; that gravy train is over. In industry outside of aircraft, riviters don’t make $24 an hour.It’s not unusual to change carreers several times over your working life. If what you do now doesn’t pay well, learn a skill set that does pay well.Higher education has gotten expensive and may not be an option for everybody. But there are still a lot of employers out there that will provide training to motivated workers. Take advantage of that kind of oportunity.It may not work for everybody, but it’s worked for me. And it beats the hell out of being poor and unemployed.
But is it George Bush’s fault as Silence Dogood suggested?
It is the job of the President to provide good jobs for everybody? Or is that responsibility towards the state or your local community? Or is it yourself?
Sometimes we just have to accept our position in life. Not everybody can be a millionaire, and not everybody can live off the government. Some people get good paying jobs based on their skill or education level, and some get it from nepotism, butt-kissing, and knowing people.
Also! Some areas have better job prospects and opportunity. USA vs Mexico, Rural vs Urban, Contract States vs Right to Work States, Rust Belt vs Sun Belt.
STS is right! When you get a job, you agree to the pay they are giving you and you’re expected to do the job they ask. Regardless if you think it pays too little or the job sucks. You agreed to it and your not forced into it, even if the job prospects are slim in your area or the pay is too low. That is why some people just rather not work, because the government pays them more than their opportunity.
I also agree with XXX. Being low skilled and getting good pay for it is basically over or very difficult to find. Robots are doing most of those jobs now or they are in remote locations, such as offshore drilling. The skill level for good pay has jumped up quite a few notches. But you have to accept it and work on what you have. Even myself! I’m only consider myself semi-skilled and even possesing technical diplomas and a college degree, I’m doing blue-collar work and making quite a bit less than $24 an hour, I have never even made close to that in my life. But I accept it. I do what ever it takes. If I have to be a maintence man at an apartment complex or pound concrete with a sledge hammer, I’ll do it.
I also believe in the American dream and working hard to achieve it. I’m working I things that I love to do, and hopefully it provides me a rewarding future.
Ahem, from the article, folks:
“But the fastest growing source of help is a patchwork system of government support, the main one being federal disability insurance, which is financed by Social Security payroll taxes.”
The article also said 60 percent of the men live alone.
These stats suggest to me that disabilities may have a bit more to do with this than skilled workers refusing to take anything they can get. Getting federal disability benefits is not easy.
P.S. Tony: A job at Wal-mart is better than nothing, but feed their families? Are you assuming that they already got another job?
Talk to a Wal-mart employee and you’ll usually hear a tragedy in progress.
Rage,
What i was saying is that he wouldnt take the job at walmart because he thought he was too good for it and it wasnt paying enough so he stayed unemployeed.
Joe W.
What I meant is that welfare to the poor is not a major problem in this country.
Welfare to the rich IS a major problem.
“What welfare to the rich?” you ask in wide-eyed wonderment.
50 percent of our budget (that is our taxes) goes to the military. The military is supplied by huge multinational corporations like the infamous Halliburton, Bechtold, and many hundreds of others like Martin-Marietta and Macdonald Douglas, Raytheon etc.
Just look at the hundreds of billions pumped into the “star wars” defense system that is still on-going from the Reagan era. It funds the 40 million dollar CEO contracts for people like Dick Cheney.
To Joe W. this is “natural and inevitable,” there’s nothing you can do about it, so just play the game.
No doubt earls and dukes were telling the landless serfs the same thing during feudalism.
But in a participatory democracy, we don’t have to accept this kind of economic injustice.
That’s what Americanism means. It means not only taking responsiblity for yourself–it means taking responsibility FOR YOUR GOVERNMENT.
Okie-dokie, Tony. I don’t know your friend. Going from the specific to the general can sometimes confuse things.*********************************
Silence, you hit upon a point that’s been on my mind.
I’m not quite sure how to say this.
It seems some (emphasize some) people think that democracy is bad when liberal principles are enacted. By all means, criticize, criticize. But there is nothing inherently un-American or even anti-capitalist about using government to curb the concentration of power and assets in the hands of the few.
I don’t want government as my master (as the current regime would have). Government is my servant, and yours too, folks. Those who rant about “less government” (aside from some powerless hardcore libertarians) don’t mean it. We get more government every day, and self-labeled conservatives are making it happen.
Take control of your government. It’s not, as Reagan famously blathered, the problem. If it’s a problem, it’s YOUR problem.
. . .and we’ve drifted a bit off topic. But it’s relevant.
By the way, before anyone brings it up, I also believe in JFK’s slogan, provided “do(ing) for your country” doesn’t mean mindless McCarthyite obedience, or indulging excessive government powers.
Gentle people,
This is a perfect thread to give you the benefit of some of my vast work experience!
When I retired from the Navy a series of mis-adventures led me to work for Beech as a technical writer. Great job! Loved it! Got layed off before my probation period was over!
My boss in technical writing told me to go out to the plant and tell them I knew how to install avionics and I did. A few months later he was able to get back downtown as a technical writer. Got layed off again.
Started to look for a job not associated with airplanes. I applied for several that I felt I was qualified for (at a significant reduction in pay I might add) unsucessfully.
One of them was working for ADT installing home security systems. Passed their test with a perfect score. Their personel manager told me I was more than qualified for the job. They needed several installers and I fit all of their qualifications.
Waited a week, they didn’t call. I called them and they said they had my application on file and they would give me a call. Next week they had an add in the paper again, looking for installers. I went down and asked the personel manager why I didn’t qualify for the damn job.
Was I too old? I was only 42, didn’t feel old. I had all of the qualifications. He asked me how much money I was making at Beech. It was a salaried job, figured out to be around $20 dollars an hour. ADT was offering $12 an hour to start. He asked me about the benifits at Beech. A whole lot better than at ADT. Then he asked me, “If Beech recalls you will you go back?” All of a sudden I knew why they didn’t offer me a job. It takes them about 6 months before a ‘new hire’ is trained and experienced enough to be fully usefull. Why waist that time and money on an ‘aircraft worker’ that would be stupid not to leave for a much better job if offered?
Two weeks later I was a technical writer for Learjet.
Now XXX is exactly right! The best way to find a good job is to look for one while you are working. The longer you are unemployed the harder it is to get a job. Its best not to hop around too much though, when I hire people I look for stability in their resume. When I see someone that has listed eight jobs in two years and feel they have a great work experience, I realize I’m talking to someone that will be with me for three months if I’m lucky!
Hank
I was doing the whole post-graduation planning when I came across this article.WHY! Why why why am I getting a college degree when I’ll probably end up waiting tables or answering phones?My parents brainwashed me into thinking degree=automatic great paying job!I do sometimes have the “I’m too good for that job” mentality. It’s going to take a lot of hard work and humility to overcome that by next May…I can only imagine my outrage when I’m making LESS post-graduation than what I’m making as a research assistant now, all the while paying down thousands and thousands of dollars in debt.Such is life, I guess :(
Interesting note: I was just using this cost of living calculator, and it claims that the COL in Honolulu is less than in Wichita. Wonder what they’re smoking.
Good point, Tara. You gotta do what you gotta do, but the longer you stray from your field, the harder it is to get yourself back into that field. I speak from personal experience. Personnel managers look at your resume and wonder why the hell you did this or that.
It’s really a balancing act.
BTW, re: COL,
http://www.azstarnet.com/news/137697
We’re number 7! We’re number 7!
The best way to thrive in a capitalist economy is to be your own boss. Find something that you enjoy and are good at and get folks to pay for your service or goods. I took a significant paycut to start my financial services company but it beats working for somebody else.
Viva La Raza Blanco!!!
Hank, I would agree conditionally. Granted, 8 jobs in 2 years is a bunch of jobs in a short time, and yeah, that would make me wonder. But in some interviews I’ll see several jobs in a short period, and a 5-10 year run with one employer.I went through 6-7 jobs in 2 years in Texas in the 70s. There can be reasons beyond your control for that. I left one because they cut back to 30 hours a week. A couple of businesses went out of business. There was a layoff. And I quit a place where the boss threw stuff. Yeah, I could have been a little more selective, but when you’re young, you have to take what’s available.
Ian! When you say you started your own financial services company, do you mean the MLM stuff? The Primamerica and other MLM programs?
If so! What is your education background? Are you a CPA, do you have a degree in Finance? What about your own finances. How are do you manage your own personal finances? Are you in serious debt, do you overspend, do you not invest, and etc.
I’m very skeptical of people in financial services. Because many of the MLM companies take anybody off the street and tell them they will make big money by selling financial services, yet hardly anybody makes much of anything. Because how can somebody trust you. People can take charge of their own personal finances without the help of some schmo off the street.
“13 percent of men between 30 and 55 reportedly aren’t working”
That stat might be a bit misleading. How many of those “not working” men might be stay-at-home dads with working wives. Sociaty HAS changed in this regard.
Joe – good point about MLM and Primerica. One reason I have often been skeptical about some of the employment stats is that they count too many “Amway” types as working when, in fact, they are not generating a living.
XXX
Oh sure, a lot of ‘experience’ on a job app wasn’t a disqualifier for me, but it did call for a few more questions in the job interview!
One lady had a pretty interesting job history and one period of about 18 monhs with no job at all. when I asked her about it she was a little evasive with her answer. Finally she admitted tht she had been in jail! One of the questions on our application was; Have you ever been convicted of a felony?
Hank
At least these non-working men aren’t being exploited by greedy capitalists.
Hank – I know all too well what you mean! “Oh sure, a lot of ‘experience’ on a job app wasn’t a disqualifier for me, but it did call for a few more questions in the job interview!”
Leftnut! That’s a good thing! Let’s just nationalize all the companies and have the government run everything. That way we can be sure that nobody is exploited and that greedy capitalist are all thrown in prison to rot for the rest of their lives.
Whoa, pretty radical idea, there, Joe! But then you used to be a communist. . . .
Yep! That’s when I was indoctrinated by the government school system.
Now I’m a smart fellow and I learned that I was just young, dumb and niave.
I’m not that way anymore. Capitalism is the way!
Hank, Nowdays you gotta be real careful what you ask in an interview. A while back, I rejected a resume because there was no employment history. I was informed that you can’t do that. Unless an applicant volunteers the information, you can’t ask why they left a former job, whether they’re married or have kids. And let’s not even go into ADA issues.
It’s tough to do interviews anymore.
There is government regulations on applications?
You work for the government?
Gee, Joe, where did you go to school? Havana? Moscow?
X, aren’t interviews tough anyway? Yes, it can be helpful to know why someone left a previous position, but I would think you would be more concerned about whether they were qualified for the job, ya know?
This whole issue seems to place much too large of a value on money. Life isn’t always about money. Hopefully these men who have no job aren’t spending their time as couch potatoes while they take the government. My hope would be that they spend the time with their families doing work around the house or something.
Also realize that the money that is being given to these people is going straight back into the economy. Since the government assistance can’t be that much, these people are likely not saving. It can be viewed as economic aid.
This is better than giving “welfare” money to the rich (who probably don’t work any harder) who will likely just save the money or possibly send the money elsewhere where it can’t be taxed. There is no guarantee that it is going to invested or spent like there is with the unemployed middle class.
Was Ross Perot right? Is this more evidence of that giant sucking sound as jobs get pulled overseas?Manufacturing used to be an option, a good way to get a job that you could support a family on. I see few things made in the USA anymore.Career changes even after 35 are tough. Would be great if a person knew what to study for. Are their any stable jobs anymore?
.morg,My recommendation would be become a mortician or law enforcement. Those are the most stable fields I know of, expecially the first one.
Tara,Just because you have a degree in one field doesn’t mean you are tied to that field. My degree has absolutely nothing to do with what I’m doing now. Sometimes all employers look for is the fact that you HAVE that degree (doesn’t matter what for). But anyways – good luck finding a job when you do graduate!
Thanks Julie,http://laborstats.dol.ks.gov/occupatn/oo2008/kansas.htm#oatmj
Here’s a job fore cast for 2008 Kansas
Organized crime in America takes in over forty billion dollars a year and spends very little on office supplies………Woody Allen
I have a friend who was a division manager at a local hospital. She was furloughed in a sale, and although she has a masters degree in business, has been unable to find a job for the last year. And she HAS been applying for lesser paying jobs. I truly don’t get that!
A friend of mine, and four of her co-workers, all with engineering degrees, ended up working for Wal-Mart for over a year during the aviation slump. They certainly weren’t lazy, but they were almost at the end of their financial ropes by the time the economy picked up. Two were within a month of having their houses foreclosed, and one had severe medical problems and no insurance, and was over $60,000 in hock to the hospital!
Minimum wage and the immigration issueWith all the debate and blogging here and there, I can’t help but wonder why the issues of minimum wage and illegal workers are not more closely tied?
If we can import all the workers we need to do all the jobs that need to be done that are dirty, menial, and low paying, and we can fill those jobs like we can order take-out, why does the GOP worrying about those of us who are just working for a legal minimum wage?
This all seems counter productive from a political standpoint. I mean why risk your electoral career on an issue that was decided long ago when the border was cracked open like an old whores legs? We can speed dial all the workers we need to wash dishes, pick crops, cut meat, and mow or trim lawns and gardens. Why in the world do we need a debate on the minimum wage, when we there is so much cheaper than minimum wage labor on the market at any given time?
Maybe there is something I don’t get here! What if we could get all the labor we need and we don’t have to pay diddily crap? Would that be cool or what?
If we can import labor from South of the border and get them to work for below minimum wage and we could get those who we sold out their jobs to underdeveloped and non-organized countries to work for just a few dollars more than the current minimum wage; Oh my God – what an economic coup we could pull off!
Just think, you get your lawn mowed, your house cleaned, your hotel room made, your produce picked, your steak cut, and your taxi driven for less than you should have to pay, and you get your husband, who used to make $14.00 an hour, a job for around $8.00. Wow, what a deal! You get a three day a year vacation you can afford, and Exxon Mobil gets $1,300 a second in profits!
Is this a great country or what?
Had enough?
I have been working for 4 years for under 10 dollars an hour.At the age of 49, no – men 35 to 55 are not lazy, we just have just been basically abuse since the seventies.Your education has nothing to do with your job but your social networking will get you far.I have lived long enought to see our country turned from capitalism to socialism.Now the corporations and others want to convert our nation to a form of economic monarch, thus the reason of low wages and immigration, it fills the needs of the little king economy.
Shouldn’t employers who pay illegal immigrants, migrant workers and day laborers less than minimum wage be fined or jailed? Prosecute them, and in the worst cases, charge them for promoting slavery, and a lot of these problems would disappear. Of course, when the DA has an illegal nanny and gardener, well……!