The surprises continue in the ongoing saga of the Rev. Terry Fox. The former Immanuel Baptist Church pastor and social conservative firebrand announced Sunday his intention to form a new church at Wild West World — of course, where else? — as long as the congregation understands that he will often be out of town.
Got that? For all the well wishes on both sides, Fox’s move looks like a direct challenge to Immanuel, since he reportedly would take part of that church’s flock with him. It’s also coming just days after Fox suggested he wants to be involved in the culture wars and might never serve as a pastor again.
You can’t blame people for scratching their heads and wondering what’s going on.
Posted by Randy Scholfield
783 Comments
Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens…..J. R. R. Tolkien (1892 – 1973)
WOW Wild West World isn’t even built yet and they are already commiting business suicide.
I’ll not be atending any amusement park or any other attraction affiliated with the clown Terry Fox.
By the way, you can show your “support” for brer Fox by way of the sponsors of his radio rant. Wendy’s, Ryan’s steakhouse (east), and Bosleys tire are among businesses I’ve not visited in some time now.
why is the whereabouts of a preacher treated as news?
Now if they wanted to make Fox an attraction, I might change my mind about Wild West World.
A dunk Terry booth maybe? Or maybe a “blow Terry off his pulpit with a firehose” booth?
That way Fox can still get his hands on those nifty tax breaks for being a minister.
I didn’t have any desire to visit Wild West World, even though I adored Hopalong Cassiday when I was a kid, and I now have even less.
I’ve heard mixed reviews on the food fare at W3 and, after seeing what they plan to charge for the amusement park, I’d rather drive to KC for World’s of Fun.
But back to the main topic, all this is kind of funny in an ironic/hypocritcal/sneaky way. I wonder how the members of Immanuel feel about this. And just why did Terry Fox decide to leave IB with the impression that he was going on to more diverse things, only to find out that he’s going to a new–literally–church?
Be not righteous overmuch.
Bible, Ecclesiastes vii. 16
I think that Fox’s original intent was to go on to other ventures (other than the weekly sermons at ‘his’ church). I’m under the impression that many people contacted him (not just those from IB) and strongly encouraged him to stay and preach. Now how can anybody resist 300 people wanting to follow you as their leader?Personally I’ll stay away.
Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath.Bible, Ephesians iv. 26
The evil that is Terry Fox rides again. It’s all about the tax breaks. This way his travel and damnation lectures (and the fees he charges for them) are protected from the evil IRS.
Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots?Bible, Jeremiah xiii. 23
As I said on another string:
Terry FoxThe Joe Lieberman of Wichita
Neither one knows he has been whipped.
Terry Fox hasn’t paid $1200 in local taxes. Perhaps he’ll preach on the sins of gluttony or tell everyone to tithe to him and remember that Jesus said to “Render unto Caesar…” How much did the taxpayers have to pay for his ballot initiatives that he avoided paying?
Hey Dennis,
http://rasmussenreports.com/2006/State%20Polls/August%202006/ConnecticutSenate.htm
As I posted on the other thread, the gnome isn’t dead!
Hank
I read your article today about Terry Fox and have to say that I find news like that very discouraging. As a Christian, I can’t help but wonder how Fox’s actions impact people’s view of Christianity. Non Christians have every right to question the church and it’s actions. I often think they must just laugh at us sometimes and for good reason. Granted, I know my own actions often have the same result and I’m thankful that my own thoughtlessness aren’t displayed on the front page of the news. The disconcerting thing about Fox’s actions is that they are seemingly taken without regard to it’s impact on Immanuel or the body of Christ.
Not to break your hearts, but the people who came up with Wild West World are all good Christian men.
I have a feeling non of you would last through one of their chuck wagon suppers.
They open with a prayer and say the pledge of alligance before supper is served.
Not to break your hearts but Wild West World was built using godless science and unbiblical technology supported by a secular infrastructure. People drive there in cars run by the decomposed corpses of life that was on this planet millions of years ago.
I’ve already been to their chuck wagon suppers and said the prayer etc.
How you get from “they criticise this self-promoting, self-aggrandizing Billy Sunday clone so they must be godless communists,” I don’t know.
A lot of us criticise people like Fox because we ARE Christians, not because we aren’t.
BTW, Nathan, is there any lie that Fox can tell that you won’t try to justify?
He said he didn’t want to be a pastor, couldn’t be a pastor, so he had to quit.
Then, all of a sudden, he not only WILL be a pastor again, he’ll take half his former church with him.
WWJD?
Capn, that would make him a flip flopper right? The conservatives will be all over him about that then get some Swift Boaters to say he never really earned his pastorial credentials.
Hehe, funny, Doug.
You know as well as I do that there’s one set of standards for Democrats and another one for Republicans.
Ken Mehlman is GAY and he’s the head of the Republican National Committee.
Just think of the outrage–the OUTRAGE, I tell you!–if the DNC chair were gay.
IOKIYAR.
Doug, No , first they’d name him a liberal and then they have the right to call him or say anything . I think that’s how it’s played.
Prayer AND pledge of allegiance? Where can I just find the “real” Wild West with fast shootings and faster wenches? LOL!
I was going through the posts on Fox’s other thread and Nathan had posted this–
“Homosexuality is a choice. There is not any definitive evidence to show someone is born that way.”
Woah, dude. Have you thought about the implications of that?
If homosexuality is really a choice, that means you are constantly making a choice as to whether you want to be straight or gay.
Every time you walk through the locker room with a bunch of naked guys, you have to force yourself NOT to get excited. Every time some pal comes by your room, you have to stop yourself from making out with him.
See, I don’t have that problem, because I as a man have no attraction for men in that way. I don’t remember making a choice. I just know that when I look at Playboy magazine, it creates a response on many levels that I don’t get from seeing Playgirl.
You on the other hand have to consciously hold yourself back.
Hmmm . . .
Historically the Wild West was filled with a bunch of people who didn’t believe in god and didn’t go to church. The reason they didn’t go to church is because there weren’t any churches around. They didn’t care much for religion because the fundies (the only ones who’d travel out west) preached against drinking, dancing, gambling and prostitution.
That’s why, back in the day, Delano was the fun town to go to and Wichita was filled with prudes. Some things never change.
Apa kabar, RooRah?
Baik-baik saja, Cap’n! Istri dan anak sudah pergi tidur malam. ;)
Random thoughts:
Will W3 put up a matching giant cross like IB’s? It really would be more easily seen there.
Capn, to be fair, Nathan also admitted that the no-proof-that-being-gay-was-genetic didn’t mean it wasn’t.
My choice not to frequent W3 was made long, long ago and had nothing to do with T. Fox. It was strengthened by a huge ad I read in the Eagle not long ago. Just didn’t ring my chimes.
Heh, selemat malam.
My bahasa melayu is pretty sketchy but I remember some words and phrases.
Well, this news certainly takes the heat off The City Council,” for voting to put an inflatable condum, over the tennis courts at Riverside.
Guess, we’re on to bigger things now! Now, that the Council didn’t “Hear”, what the opponents said. And actually, couldn’t care less.
Wonder, how much the Good Council, will appropriate, for the Rev. Fox’s betterment?
Attention IRS: beware of preacher who uses pulpit to play politics. Taxman, ride your pony north of town.
Sneaky like a Fox….I imagine members of his former congregation are saying to themselves, “if we could of only hated more, maybe he would have stayed.”
Tony,
Do you have any proof that Terry Fox uses the pulpit for politics?
Somehow I think your idea of politics and what the IRS thinks is politics are two different things.
Do you guys ever get tired of trying to make up anything you can to attack him with?
Jimmy,
If you could only mischaracterize and lie about people more and what they think…you could be part of the DNC.
Who could really blame me for getting out of south Wichita. I was tired of hugging the iliterate, consoling the methheads, smelling old peoples breath, and listening to cars rattling without mufflers in the parking lot.
Are you Nathan, as in Nathan Lane, the great artist who happens to be gay. I didn’t think you hated yourself. Too bad George Gardner is in heaven. He could of helped you.
Tony: Personal insults are uncalled for. Resorting to that is arguably a sign of not being able to deal with your opponent’s argument or your own emotions.
“I have a feeling non of you would last through one of their chuck wagon suppers.”
Thats funny Nathan. Had dinner etc there Saturday – lots of good fun! And I survived.
Tony?
George Gardner is dead? When did this happen? BTW, he was married. He also married my former sister-in-law and her husband. Strange choice of clergy for those two.
Gee, Nathan, I don’t have a problem with prayer before a meal or the Pledge. I’m just not into the Wild West. Guess that wasn’t one of my “times.” ;)
By the way – if you have kids I definitely recommend Prairie Rose. Go early and ride the train etc. Lots of fun!
My mom went to that Prairie rose thing. She liked it but it sounded like a regular hickfest to me. I see I was correct. What the hell does the pledge of allegiance have to do with dinner?
Oh and Outlander? I don’t think Nathan needs any defense from personal shots. Paticularly since he does more than his share of taking them.
It would be interesting to see TM’s take on Fox’s jump and which way she will go.
I’m gonna disagree with Julie. I think this was Fox’s plan all along.
Nathan,”I have a feeling non(e) of you would last through one of their chuck wagon suppers.”
Can XXX and I bring our big guns:-)
Nathan, George Gardner welcomed gay people into his congregation. He believed we all were God’s creation. He didn’t think hate and division were Chritian like. He was not gay that I know of. He was a loving human being. He is not a Terry Fox. He is a Jesus man.Nathan, it is fear of humanity and fear of science which keeps you rigid. It’s not about you, Nathan. Put down the bible and pick up a text book.
Fred Phelps, Terry Fox, George Bush, Sam Brownback: Yes Nathan, after review of the your above friends, many of us are proud to be part of the DNC.
Too bad Fox didn’t contact Gander Mountain; there is plenty of space, what with the absence of the public. The WWpark is now being renamed the WWTFD.
Why would a pastor need a full color picture of himself in the Yellow Pages? Or on a billboard on Kellogg? What is the attraction, the church or this “important person”? I don’t think even the Pope has a full page color ad in the Yellow Pages.
It seems that Fox has redesigned the work of a pastor..and is concerned more about HIS fame.
I don’t know where JR gets his information about those “nifty tax breaks” for being a minister. As the wife of a former pastor, we were taxed every which way but loose! Being a pastor/minister isn’t suppose to be for personal glory, but for the glory of the Lord God Almighty!
Uh Sue?
I did not post as to tax breaks for anybody.
RAPTOR! Good to see you again! Fox has a full page ad?I too think that Fox is more about himself than his ministry.
Um “Nathan” is that really you?
I just caught up with the thread. Well, pastors are first human before they are anything else. Self promotion comes naturally to us humans. Everyone has skeletons, and Terry Fox probably does. The word is that Fred Phelps’s sister will tell all once the cranky gay hater is dead. She said something happened to him when he was young that made him the way he is today. I suspect Terry Fox was sat on by a fat gay gambling kid at church camp and he’s made it his passion to squash anyone who fits the type.I believe you Nathan, in fact I thought so before I got to your last response. In America we welcome all types. In America what we do in our bedrooms as adults is no one else’s business.To Sue, the pastor’s wife. I bet he has done some things that you are hiding for him. If you are really honest then you will confess.
See Nathan, even Sue’s hubby was once a pastor. One can find the truth and set themselves free from the grips of religion. I prefer spirituality. It means I don’t have to listen to some jackass tell me what is right and wrong.Nathan, you can be gay or not, you will be loved either way.
Did Nathan just admit that he was Gay? Cant that get him kicked out of the marines
Nathan had an “incident.” The Kinsey study claims that many men have had at least one gay “incident.” I bet he is a really mean Marine, which is good for our country.
Nathan: “Do you have any proof that Terry Fox uses the pulpit for politics?” I have a answering machine recording from the 2004 election that has “Rev.” Fox informing the Democratic candidate for the 30th Senate race that “when you lose to Susan Wagle, it’s because of the work I did against you”. That’s all the proof I need to have a bias against this alleged “man of God”.
Obviously there were enough people at Immanuel that were not happy with Terry Fox and his “ministry” for the cultural war. Which is why he resigned in the first place. I do find it somewhat suspicious that he will now be an absent pastor because he will traveling? That just doesn’t sound right.
Terry Fox is a sanctimonious piece of shi*
Apophis,I think you are a sinner who hasn’t the courage to face your truths. I challenge you to come to see Terry in the coming weeks. He will set your soul free. I will be there.
That’s not Nathan.
I don’t agree with his politics, but this kind of trolling is just ridiculous. It just makes the “tolerant” side look really bad.Cut it out.
Oops,:-( Sorry JR, It is Doug that is the misinformed one regarding “tax breaks” for pastors. I’m new to “blogging” :-) By the way Carl, my husband was a pastor in Arizona and we don’t even know Terry Fox, much less are we “hiding” anything for him as you think.
Sue, what was the reason for your husband’s fall from grace?
I second what Tara said. Knock off the trolling you jerk, whoever you are.
Carl, “Fall from grace?” Do you think the only reason that a pastor leaves a ministry is due to a personal “failing?”? I can’t vouch for every case, but in our case, my mother was diagnosed with cancer and we came back to Kansas to care for her. I have known many pastors who left the ministry due to stress, etc., not because of some personal sin or failing. When my mother is better we will probably return to an active ministry.
I third what Tara said. I don’t often agree with Nathan and I think he is misguided but he is a decent young man. So knock off the trolling, cocnut!!!
V.L.R.B!!!
Stan….I have no desire to be near Fox. To me he is no better than Fred Phelps. You act as if he is your new messiah.
Would the very Reverend Terry Fox accept and keep money from Thomas Ethridge the owner of Wild West after Ethridge was convicted for securities violations? All money is dirty so any ya all don’t want throw it my way! People, Money is the root of all evil ….. so ya all get in and root ….. just give me at least ten per cent!
Do I a hear a Hee Haw?
Rev Phelps
Fred, I’ll see you at the YMCA near the capitol around 9:15 tonight. Hugs & Hatred, Jimbo
Apophis, I guarantee Terry has a higher relationship with God. I have seen it and felt it. Violation of man-made laws comes with the territory when Terry speaks for God. How could we expect him to abide by man laws when he abides by God’s laws.
Every once in awhile on any thread slamming conservatives, there is an ambiguous poster who makes wild-eyed satirical pundits done in atrociously bad taste using a screen name in the guise of a right-wing extremist character. (e.g. RightWing Nut, Fred Phelps, Terry Fox, Rush O Hannity etc etc.)To the ass-whore of ass-whores,Kindly stop using Nathan’s screen name and posting scandalous shit about him. F*ck off and go find another blog where they pull that kinda infantile bullshit and stay there!
Nathan,
If that’s really you, all I can say is, it’s okay. No problem. No big deal.
If it isn’t, and this is some nasty troll, may you burn in the hell I don’t believe in.
I don’t know who is trolling Nathan’s name, but it isn’t funny.
I am gonna guess that is NOT Nathan. The purple chicken has been alerted!
If this IS a troll we have rather harsh ways of dealing with trolls!
Who shot J.R.?
Weird discussion going on. lol At any rate, never did like the ego-centric nature of the billboards around town anyway. Putting a cowboy hat on Fox won’t make it better. lgphttp://blogginoutloud.blogspot.com/2006/08/talkin-points-081506.html
It’s the middle of the night in Iraq where Nathan is defending your gutless troll butt. So Nathan isn’t on anymore folks.
Folks, I understand the frustration you all must have after reading the thread. I can only say that the “troll” is offending just a handful of us. Terry Fox is offensive to thousands of us. Let’s get back on track and try to ignore the troll.
RD,
This is obviously a petty, vile little troll. the use of the flowery language and the meultiple, bogus email addys gave it away. Could this, perhaps be galahad et al, the phantom of the blog himself?
v.l.R.B!!
“You can’t blame people for scratching their heads and wondering what’s going on.”
I don’t wonder. I don’t give a rat’s patootie about Terry Fox, or Westworld, or Emuel Baptist. I trust it’s all getting expanded coverage in the print version of the Beagle. I’m glad you find it so interesting, Randy. Your dwindling number of subscribers probably find it quite fascinating, as well.
Nathan is not yet in Iraq Out.
And I do not think he is present in the last several posts that bare his name.
Outlander,
Unless Nathan just left for Iraq, he’s still in Cali.
“Jack Straw from Wichita laid his money down….”
Will,I will pray for you tonight. You are an angry person.
Oops. I’ll be back when the freakshow’s over.
I challenge any of you to a debate on the bible. Will, I imagine you are short man with short manhood. You will regret messing with me. I can only take so much abuse. I will pray that you go somewhere tonight.
To all of you: Praise Allah!
I have enjoyed watching how true Christians treat each other.Praise Allah!
Will, are you unhappy because you are 41 and lonely. Wasn’t Klinger from Toledo? Jamie Farr was one of my people.Praise Allah!
OK, enough. There’s a troll posting over Nathan’s name. I wonder what name-stealer might stoop that low….
Troll, if you’re gonna pray, you better pray for yourself. You slimed a better man than you. Somebody with your lack of honor isn’t fit to use Nathan’s name.
Nathan would have never done a thing like this to you. Think about it, asshole.
The Real XXX
Will, CrusaderX a name that sounds masculine; I suppose to mask your smallness. I would not kidnapp this name. I am already I big long man. Are you a man? Bring your friends, boy.
XXX, another masculine title for a man of smallness. I am mad at you. I suggest you and I meet to disuss this XXX name. The real Nathan probably is not into Porn – you pudwhacker.I am long, you are not.
Hey troll?
I got a friend.
He can find out who you are!
He can find out where you live!
Purple chicken gonna peck out your eyes troll!
All of you have been duped by a troll. Ask yourselves, how serious are you to defend our community from Terry Fox if you are thrown off course by a troll. The first Nathan on the thread is not the same Nathan that came on later. I am amazed that this offended you. I hope you are equally offended by Terry Foxes trolling of God’s name. I apologize that there was some confusion about the Nathan names. For you who threaten violence, well you are giving Terry Fox all the ammo he needs. This is the first time I have ever posted on anything. I had fun, nothing more, nothing less. I do plan to be at Heroeas at 10:02pm if anyone would like to laugh this off. I will be wearing a pink shirt.
Being called names by a coward.
As Will says, OOOOHHHHH!
Troll “Nathan”Maxwelletc.
Jigs up buddy.
“Who shot J. R”
Is that a threat?
I think the “Who shot JR…” thing was referencing the TV show.
Aww…to bad I’m 6,000 miles away. I would love a beer at Heroes AND the opportunity to kick a troll’s ass.So sad.
Yes well “Troll”
Whether I would agree with you on Terry Fox or not is not relevant.
This forum is hard on liars and trolls no matter what side they are on.
If trolling posters is your idea of fun I suggest you not visit here again.
Will, lighten up. XXX, lighten up. JR, lighten up. RD, lighten up.
I apologize again. The blog is all yours.
Allah Akbar
Tara, you are 6,000 miles away for what reason? Are you in prison? Are you married to an Asian man? Are you Don Ho’s personal assistant?If you will just shut up I will be gone.
“All of you have been duped by a troll. Ask yourselves, how serious are you to defend our community from Terry Fox if you are thrown off course by a troll.”
Well, aren’t you the cunning liar?
“I am amazed that this offended you.”
Well of course you’re amazed. You have no honor, no mores.
“I apologize that there was some confusion about the Nathan names.”
No, you don’t. Scum never appoligizes.
“I had fun, nothing more, nothing less.”
Good for you. Anyboody else who reads this thinks you’re a cowardly asshole.
“I do plan to be at Heroeas at 10:02pm if anyone would like to laugh this off.”
Yeah, Riiight…
Oh please, troll, don’t leave. You’re such a perfect example of an asshole. Please stick around and impress us with what for you, passes as wit. Or maybe half a wit.
XXX, you must have a degree in critical analysis. I appreciate your breakdown. You must have learned that from Pastor Terry; the ability to take words from a text and spin them to mean something else.Whoa! XXX you are soooo tough.Allah Akbar
Don’t feed the troll!Ignore the stupid thing, and it’ll get bored and slither away.
I want to leave the blog but I keep getting drawn back in. I have to defend my honor. I am the greatest comedian since Andy Kaufman.
Phew! glad that’s over! Now to the matter at hand. I don’t know Terry Fox well, is he really like Fred “Homophobe” Phelps? Can anyone do a character evaluation of the guy?
We defend our own. Maybe someday the troll will learn the meaning of friendship. I’m very pleased to know that most of us already know it.
Agreed no more feeding this clown.
I am gonna try and see to it that this particular troll is identified though.
It’s a sad day when you people start out murdering Terry Fox with your words, then you start wanting to hurt each other over your opinions about a man you don’t even know.You only know what you’ve read or heard as gossip.
I’m sorry if my ignorance of Terry Fox offends anyone but I am Catholic and consequently I haven’t the slightest idea of what these Evangelical preachers are all about except the notorious Phelps character, but that’s due to the grotesque media attention that’s been fed to him.
How long does this crap have to keep happening before we realize that the only answer is to require log-ins to Type Key?
This is why I took Cosmo’s suggestion and only post under this nic using a password.
Trolls can still post over my nic, but nobody can copy my nic AND my profile, and that’s my own posts can be verified.
If we all did this, we could spot trolls easily.
My limited understanding of Fox is that he and Pastor Joe Wright organized the masses to get out the vote to strongly defeat a gay marriage proposal during the 2004 election. I have watched some of his late night sermons and I found him to be a little on the crazy side. He truly believe he will be sucked from his moving car when the rapture comes.
TM,What’s Terry Fox all about? Is he really as bad as the rest of our boon companions say of him? I would like to hear your concept of the guy.
“that’s HOW you’re own posts can be verified” I should have said.
TM will you be staying with Immanuel or will you follow brother Terry Fox to the amusement park?
Hmm didn’t Jim and Tammy (I apply my makeup with a spatula) Baker have an amusement park?
Kevin,True i did verify that’s what KFG kept bringing up in the past and called the “hate ammendment” right? Regarding his sermons, It has been my experience that evangelicals doing sermons can be rather… eccentric? (I don’t wanna use crazy, I’m trying to be fair to them)
sic, that should have read “enthusiastic” rather than “eccentric” my bad.
I was slightly amused by the last few hours of blogs, given the emotions that appeared to have surfaced. I guess TM has a point about directing anger toward someone we have never met. My personal experiences with misdirected anger is that I end up apologizing in the end.Now moving on, Fox is aggresive towards gays because he has never had to accept the biological. He carries the same vile contempt for adulterers, gamblers, drinkers, etc. BUT – his congregations have had personal experiences with everything except the gay thing. So, he has to tread lightly against divorce, booze, gambling, etc. I believe he is starting a new church for his most ardent followers only. Basically he is scraping off a level of sinners in favor of those who truly believe every word this man says.
If what you say is true, then this guy would be the biggest Pharisee history has ever seen! I will watch this new church of his closely. I certainly hope he hasn’t developed a messianic complex and his flock have equated him with Christ. If this is really the case, then he must be stopped. I don’t wanna see them turn into those fringe Mormons that the FBI is after. You know, that character who is marrying adolescent girls in polygamous marriages? Fox must be watched closely.
Will, I do not personnaly affiliate with religion. Since my early boyhood I found the Catholic religion to be frightening. As soon as I had a choice, age 16, I stopped attending church. Here’s a question: if once a Catholic am I always a Catholic? I joined a Methodist congregation. I am a liberal democrat and the Methodest dogma suited my feelings about humanity and spirituality. I have not attended any church services in a few years.I cannot imagine sharing fellowship with people who believe that homosexuals are deprived sex offenders. The same goes for the Catholics. Centuries of self governing has turned the church into a scrary cript, in my opinion.Anytime preachers try to influence laws against morality things get ugly. So, when I suggest a sermon is crazy I really think it is. It is crazy to destroy other persons lives in the name of God.
” Basically he is scraping off a level of sinners in favor of those who truly believe every word this man says.”
Could be, Kevin. They would be more easily led…which leads me to wonder where they will be led to.
I don’t know the Revs Fox or Wright. I did meet and deal with a Baptist minister here in town, years ago. He was well-known and had several commercials on local channels for a while. The photography studio where I worked did his daughter’s wedding photos, and to be honest, he was a real asshole to work with. His daughter was a lovely girl. Very, very nice. She must’ve taken after her mother, who I never met. ;)
Forgive my grammar in my postings. I speed up to keep up with my thoughts.
Interesting, Kevin. I left the Catholic church when I was 14 or 15. It was more about hypocricy than anything else, then I moved on to Protestant churches (small town) and found hypocricy there. It really turned me off. I always said I excommunicated myself from the Catholic church. Paul refers to it as lapsed, I think.
Now, as a self admitted occasional hypocrit – if Pastor Fox can talk to God and guarantee me front row tickets for the Stones I would be willing to endorse him until Oct. 2; The day after the show.
People – before you start doing drive bys on Wild West World, ANYONE or group can lease the theatre. “Any” means both people you agree or disagree with. And I agree with the poster that stated “since when does a preacher change churches become news?” Get a life Wichita or find something actualy interesting to write about.
Homosexuals are depraved sex offenders? Who on earth taught you that?
Terri, we are discussing religion issues. Please go get your life somewhere else and leave ours alone.
There are many things which I disagree with the church about. One such thing was imposed celibacy as a qualification for clerical positions. That is one major reason I left the seminary. But I never left the church, even though I disagree with her on issues.
Will,Listen to Terry Fox. He has stated his belief that gays are child molesters, etc. I have a friend who thinks gays should be jailed because they molest children. I don’t believe this but the influence of a preacher over an eager audience only means more hate for many more years.By the way, when I was a kid the father at the church was named Father Sinner – no lie. His first name was Emil. We used to refer to him as Evil Sinner.
Will:Terry Fox, a preacher with a confrontational style of preaching and evangelism.He’s a man with great vision. He sees the big picture of what God is calling him to do.He grew up poor in a trailer park in Arkansas. His Mom and Dad were divorced. He had very humble beginnings and is a very humble man, except when it comes to God and God’s word. He makes no apologies for what he believes and the fact that his beliefs come from God’s word.He is a quick thinker, quick witted and quick in his speech. He chooses his friends wisely and carefully and has Godly men whom he is accountable to. Every preacher should surround themselves with men they should be accountable to. Terry has always been wise to do so.He’s not good at delegating. He takes on too much at one time and people and problems would be easily overlooked, not on purpose, just because he wanted to be the one to help.
Will,I hope I am not offending you. I really have no credibility with religion. I just know what I feel in comparison to the teaching of Catholicism. I agree agout the celibacy thing. Why would sexual expression and child making be something to deny any man or woman. Other than the distraction a relationship can create I think married priests would be beneficial to Her,(your expression).
Hahaha! The pastor of my church was a man by the name of father Vallancourt, we called him the Judge because that’s exactly what he always did to us during Confession. I remember one where I confessed that I had sex for the first time when I was 17, and he gave me the most god-awful guilt trip I’ve ever had! “How could you? You’re not a man of God” I went home and wept that day. Which brings me to another reason why I left the seminary; asshole priests. Those guys were nothing more than Pharisees, and lo and behold, look what happened to them when that whole child molesting scandal broke out! On that day I found out there was a God, and when he pays ya back, it can be a real bitch.
TM,In all seriousness, please explain to all of us what Pastor Fox has said about homosexuals. Please present his words and not just his work ethic. With all due respect.
Her, meaning the Church. sorry for the confusion.
I am a struggling bisexual. I wish I would go one way or the other. I truly have healthy attractions to both sexes. It is very hard because I desire a monogomous relationship. I feel like my thoughts betray my love interests.TM – what would Pastor Terry say to me? How would he help me?
Will,I once, at a very young age, made up a story about stealing pencils during confession because I didn’t have anything to confess.!!!!
TM I note that you are a member of Fox’s former church. I note also that on another thread you have stated that you will not follow Fox to his new church.
For this you should be applauded. But you might want to reconsider your respect for Fox. I say he is a prima-donna. I say he is advancing the image of Terry Fox and using the word of god for a script.
Kevin,Honestly I wouldn’t know what to say other than the fact that 2,000 years ago a young Jewish rabbi got nailed to a cross for preaching that we should all just love each other regardless of what we’ve done in the past, and for befriending and defending the persecuted most hated people in the society in which he lived, and for telling them that God had forgiven them no matter what they did in the past, all the religious experts at the time killed him for it, and I suspect if He really was what He said He was, then He would want me to befriend and defend homosexuals from those same people who persecute you too.
Will,thanks for your thoughts. I think what really makes this frustrating is that guys like Fox and Brownback, and Tihart, and….can rally votes by denouncing gays but I have yet to see a politician or preacher able to rally votes for respect and freedom for gays. Life is not fair, I know. I think the last 8 years showed us the true convictions of Mr. Bush and Karl Rove and their hoodwinking the religious right. The last thing I have felt over the past 8 years is that America doesn’t seem very Christian like. It is so divided and hateful, and then we actually believe we can entice other countries to follow our lead.
It seems that the sexuality thing has chased some folks off. Hmmm…what’s new.
Terry has always, always, always said that homosexuals are welcome at Immanuel. They still are welcome at Immanuel.The entire word of God is preached there, so people should bring their Bibles and come hear the message of God’s Good News.The problem is, when they hear the truth of God’s words, not a persons opinion, but the truth of God’s words from scripture, they become offended at the messenger delivering the message. Just good, old fashioned, Holy Spirit conviction. Most homosexuals don’t want to hear it, so they won’t come. It’s not a message of hate, it’s a message of God’s great love, when HE sent HIS ONLY son, Jesus, to die on the cross for every persons sins. The event of Jesus dying on the cross is offensive because when you begin to understand the totality of the work God finished through the ministry, death, burial and resurrection of HIS ONLY son, you realize how ugly your own sin is and that if not confessed and repented from, we will give an account for the words, thoughts and deeds we have done in this earthly vessel.The price has been paid for all our sin. Come to Jesus for forgiveness, help, inspiration, healing and peace. This is the message Terry Fox has preached his whole life.
TM – how many homosexuals were members of Fox’s congregation? Are you friends with any of them, specifically from the congregation. I want to hear a number, not an excuse.
TM – are you aware the recent studies have completely put to bed that homosexuality is a choice. Years of biological research have proven there are biological difference between gays and straights.What do you suppose God would say to you now?
I have a challenge for you, TM. Please read the book “What the Bible really says about homosexuality.” It is honest scholarly analysis of biblical passages. Please read it. Are you able to listen to opposing opinions?
No sweat. I’ve been called a homophobe before, but I am confidant I never have been cuz I’m a huge Freddie Mercury fan. =)
I fancy “Fat Bottom Girls” myself.
TM,Perhaps it is because Fox singles out homosexual acts as being more sinful than other sins that’s why homosexuals are turned off by the Gospel. Remember that the primary mission of us Christians is to spread the love of God through the Gospel to ALL Creation. Consequently I think you will agree that homosexuals are a part of creation too? So it is our mission to preach to them too.
Kevin,You bet your ass I do! hehehe
Kevin:I don’t know.I’m not privy to that information.It doesn’t mean that there aren’t homosexuals who attend, it just means that I don’t know who they are in my church.Terry has mentioned from the pulpit that there are many in the congregation who struggle with secret sins and that we ,as a church family, need to lift them up in prayer and support and encourage them.
TM -How do you explain the vile hate spewed by so many so-called Christians toward homosexuals? Did they come by these feeling on their own…or were they scared shitless by their preacher. Every time a preacher suggests that homosexuals molest children, or recruit children, the audience is naturally going to fear and hate. We all react that way, unless we know better.
TM – can you tell me if Terry Fox ever warned the congregation about homosexuals molesting children and/or recruiting children?Tell the Truth, TM.
TM,And please tell me what difference does it make since we ARE ALL SINNERS? Remember the words of Paul, who am I to judge my brother? Leave the judgments to God. I’m a foul mouthed fornicator, but I have accepted Christ, and I continue to accept Christ everyday even when assholes give me a hard time, I hold back my temper cuz I know that’s what Jesus would do. Our righteousness is not our own! It is given us by God! How can you boast about your righteousness when it was GIVEN you? When you haven’t achieved it for yourself? God is Love, and I believe that He’s pissed at the fact that the likes of Pharisee Fred and his ilk are turning Christianity into a religion of rules!!!
TM – I appreciate your sticking with me. I get the feeling that you think of gay sex as a sin. Am I to understand that you feel it is a greater sin than the type you may commit? Why do you think members of the congregation hide themselves? Shame? How does shame help anyone?Pastor Terry is a man who believes things in his own way. He is not anymore right than you or I. I wonder how much better the world would be without preachers? Guilt – Shame – are borne from religion.I encourage you to read the book I mentioned earlier, it probably won’t change your mind, but it does present actual biblical text that Pastor Terry would never speak of.
TM- please take your time. I’ll give you the last word unless you have questions.Will, nice to meet you.Kevin
Kevin,Likewise. I must retire now. More insanity for tomorrow! Good night all.
One last word: Instead of going after homosexuals and what they do behind closed doors, why isn’t there more Christian opposition to DIVORCE? Cuz that’s more of an imminent threat to the family structure than homosexual marriage would ever dream of being! Divorce leaves broken homes which leaves broken children. I have yet to hear any concrete arguments about how homosexual marriage is gonna ruin heterosexual families! All I’ve heard is meaningless wild-eyed, alarmist speculations!
DIVORCE: THE REAL DANGER TO THE FAMILY
Peace.
Will, you dog. I agree, now get some sleep….K
Oh My, I find myself agreeing with a statement Will made…
Oh God, please help me…
It’s comical watching Rev. Fox jerk the chains of all the anti-God, Christian-haters! No sooner than they finish whipping themselves into a frenzy because he’s leaving, he pulls the rug out from under them again! These fools must shop at ACME!
Let’s face the facts. What guy has enough complaints from the church that the church leadership talks him into resigning but has enough people in his congregation to start another church?
Let’s look at the multiple reasons why Terry is leaving:
1st Story – He wants to open a seperate ministry and tour the nation for causes…all of which he says Immanuel supports him in doing. This means financial support and backing for this. We also learn that Immanuel is looking for an interum and that this was sudden…which makes the 1st story unlikely enough, but then…
2nd Story – Fox decided to resign because he was gone a lot and the church leadership, and people in the church, didn’t like that. He felt he wasn’t acting like a pastor and didn’t have the heart for it, so he resigned after church leadership talked to him about it.
3rd story – He’s going to start another church in the same vicinity as Immanuel. Now, if Immanuel supported him in the first story, and he didn’t have the heart to pastor in the 2nd story, why is the 3rd story him starting a competing church with members of his own “supportive” congregation doing something that he said he didn’t have the heart to do?
My idea – Terry was forced to resign…hell…he was probably voted out by the church because they were sick of him (I know people there and even they can’t stand him). The 200-300 is a lie that he made up, and this is his attempt to get back at Immanuel for kicking him out. Something also tells me that there is more information on Terry that will be released.
It would also be to Immanuel’s favor to at least give us a general idea of why Terry left. Nothing specific, just let us know if he did do this willingly and is just acting like a jerk to spite them, or if he was forced out for other reasons.
He was seen around town with that one girl who looked half his age…not saying anything was going on but maybe other members saw them together like I did…and they just got sick of it?
I hope all you christian conservatives out there will remember that it wasn’t us non-christians, but your own Terry Fox that has rather literally turned your sacred religion into a sideshow attraction.
Oh they’ll remember it jed. Hell, they are PROUD of their little side show.
I especially love the finale number where they all join hands and sing “we are the champions” while they firmly plant their feet on the necks of anyone who isnt them.
Praise god and pass the ammunition. I cant wait for the REAL culture war!
I still think a little thinning of the gene pool is in order so these breeders dont pass on their hate and bigotry to another generation.
But of course, they will.
And they will call it a RELIGIOUS education.
heheheheheh. Funny if not so terribly, terribly sad.
And we reward them with tax breaks.
The Eagle’s star reporter, Deb Gruver, is covering the story in Meade.
http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/15275899.htm
Perhaps the big question is, will we no longer need to see Terry’s mug on television right after Saturday Night Live? I’ve never seen restaurants change the channel faster than when he came on.
Doug, this is not on subject, but..When I was a young man and lived in Wichita, I remember the only thing on all night was a local station’s old move show titled “OLD FLICK”.However, when the title came on, the letters were so close together that at first glance it read:OLD FUCK. Ha.My friends always referred to it as the latter.Any other old geezers remember this?
Yeah, it was Wsu Prof. Jim Erickson.
How about The Host and Rodney??
Wasn’t The Host also Major Astro? I tried to pretend it wasn’t true when I was in the 4th grade.
gster–you geezer! Ha.You remember more about it than I do. I worked 2nd shift, and we always had a card game and beer drink going on after work, so I don’t remember the details. Just the local joke about the title.
Todd- Yes. I used to laugh my arse off , it was hysterical. Of course, I was only 1 or 2 at the time , in metric years!
Todd- Yes. I used to laugh my arse off , it was hysterical. Of course, I was only 1 or 2 at the time , in metric years!
One point of clarification, KSFRmgrl.
While the fundies use religion to discriminate and whip up “us versus them” self-righteousness, not all religious groups do that.
The American Anglican (Episcopalians) have installed a gay bishop and they’re really paying a price for it.
I am proud of my church for doing that, so you can’t say that all religions are guilty.
But I can understand why you’re not noticing the ONE group that stands up for gay rights while all the others ignore them or actively discriminate.
Ya, and things like THIS make it hard for me to ignore as well:
http://tbogg.blogspot.com/2006/08/onward-christian-soldiers-sada-13-year.html
Maybe that is where nathan went wrong…..
“The American Anglican (Episcopalians) have installed a gay bishop and they’re really paying a price for it.”
Is that an example of the old “exception that proves the rule”?
…and maybe THIS is what has folks frothing about athiests? AND the ACLU? heheh
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364×1910845
The funny thing is that right after the Epsicopal Church did that, a bunch of conservatives dropped out of my home congregation.
But then in the last several years, it has doubled in size!
It’s the Dixie Chicks phenomenon . . . getting attacked by the right-wing helps your side, LOL.
Okay, normally I would not engage in the conversation above, but some of it is really absurd and needs comment.
1. I attended IBC and left
2. Terry is like everyone else, a sinful person (all have sinned and come short of teh glory of God)
3. I do not condone or accept the manner in which Terry has lived and does live his life, but I don’t carry rocks either, I am in no position to throw them. I leave the judging up to God.
4.There is no evidence that homosexuals are born as homosexuals. And please, try not to attack the person but the message. Anyone can throw out or lob insults.
5. As a Christian, there are certain tennants to the bible that I accept and believe. Because I view homosexuality as wrong, does not make me a hate monger. because we may disagee does not provie you the right to label me a certain way.
6. I have a friend that I was in the Navy with… we used to go to bible study together and now, he tells me he is homosexual. I disagree with the lifstyle, but he is still my friend.
Back to Terry, yes, there are other reasons for his departure and yes they are reasons that are upsetting. But, at the end of the day, all of us, yes all of yes, will be standing before a mighty God and we will all be judged accordingly. I would ask respectfully that those posting please refrain from blasting those at the church as they do not know what goes on behind the doors of Terry Fox home, no more than they know what goes on behind your doors. And yes, there are some who post who are not beleivers in Christ, your choice and your decision. But please, for those of us who do choose to follow Christ, can we not do so without your ridicule? Where is your tolerance that you speak so grandly about?
As a final note, please withhold your attacks, snide remarks, rude comments or colorful language as I am not inetrested in a dialogue with anyone who cannot show respect, civility and the ability to agree to disagree. I rather would prefer and honest intellectual discussion than adhominen; that is the gestof what I have seen thus far.
M
A very well written post on your part.
Your call for civility and mutual respect is noted.
Before I can honor it, I need to ask you how you voted on last years amendment to the Kansas Constitution. For you see that will answer for me whether or not your call for civility is from a position of intellectual honest …..or hypocrisy.
Terry often spoke about the rapture. It appears he suffered a mini-rapture at IBC. One day he was there, the next day he was gone.
“There is no evidence that homosexuals are born as homosexuals.”
That is total bullsh*t, M.
I don’t know if that is honest ignorance on your part or a willful “ignorance,” but there is a great deal of evidence for a genetic explanation.
1. Researchers have found clear differences in homosexual brains from heterosexual ones.
2. Research has shown that younger sons born in a series of brothers are seven times more likely to be gay.
3. Studies show that fluctuating hormones during gestation can lead to gayness.
4. Animal studies show that offspring can be manipulated into homosexual behavior by hormone levels during gestation and adolescence.
5. Common experience shows that gayness has nothing to do with “choice.” I know a family with five sons. All of them are straight except the second to the youngest son. They had the same parents, the same environment.
I know of another case in which the son of a Baptist preacher was gay. (He eventually died of AIDS in fact.) Now why would this person, growing up in that environment, “choose” to be gay, knowing how his family and friends and community would react?
Did you “choose” to be straight? Because I didn’t. Ever since I had awareness of such things from a very early age, I was attracted to girls in a way that I was not attracted to boys.
It doesn’t make sense that anything short of a genetic cause would underlie gayness in today’s society.
M,You argue there is no evidence that homosexuality is genetic. Are you avoiding modern science? If you opened your mind just a little to at minimum read the studies then you may learn to consider that the interpretation of your Bible is incorrect.Here’s a thought that I have always found interesting: How is it that so-called Christians feel they do not have to consider the testimony of millions of homosexuals as testiment that they(gays) feel okay and feel natural and just want to love their partners with the same respect from the government as hetero people have. Go to church, condemn gays, but at least stand up and be an American and let others have freedom too.
M-Very well written. I encourage you to remain and play with the rest of us. There are few conservatives that post well written and well thought posts.I will endeavor to treat you and others with civility and mutual respect
(I however will deal with trolls as I see fit).
Don’t you remember the 8 year old boys in elementary school that sit at the girl’s table and want to help mommy in the kitchen . . . and how they invariably turn out to be gay?
That’s a “choice”?
What is a troll? Are you referring to opposing opinions?
M – please stay on. I will tailor my words to avoid condescending you. I think I did in my earlier text. Sorry
hee hee hee hee hee hee hee heeeeee
M?
heee heeeheee hee hee hee hee hee heeeeeeeee
OMG, too funny.
“But please, for those of us who do choose to follow Christ, can we not do so without your ridicule?”
Uh M…..
But please for those of us who ARE homosexual, can we not do so without your riducule? Without you putting a CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT in place to make sure we are second class citizens?
Can we not do without the ayatollah terry’s ridicule? Without the hatred in fatherly holy joe’s prayers?
hee hee hee hee hee hee hee
And M….
You think your support and terry’s support of the HATE amendment were NOT looking into my bedroom and voting, making LAW, based on what the peeping toms wanted to see?
heheheheheheheheheheheh
M. A perfect example of why we need a separation of church and state.
I cant wait for the day I get to vote on something important to you.
heheheheheheheheh.
Better hope your tax free churches NEVER come up for a vote.
Tyranny of the majority?
Persecuted majority?
We Are The Champions Majority?
heheheheh. The more you post, the more you show the true nature of your god.
he must be so proud……
Yup, that’s what I was thinking too, KSfrmgrl.
M: “Please treat me with kindness and dignity while I justify blatent discrimination against gays based on my narrow reading of a two-thousand year old document that I want to believe is sacred.”
“The government of the United States of America is in no way founded upon the Christian religion.” Treaty of Tripoli
Even if we agreed with your selective and in my view HERETICAL reading of the Bible (which we don’t), that still wouldn’t justify enshrining it into US law.
But I’ll try to respect you when I call you a mindless bigot.
“Where is your tolerance that you speak so grandly about?”
Exactly where yours is. I cant wait to take mine to the ballot box. Just like you.
And these whiney cries for civility?
We have been through this before. I wont be fooled again.
Sorry your sensitive little ears cant stand the truth about how ugly your religion and your religious leaders are.
Sorry you cant take the truth about how you and yours have neutered and then bastardized the freedoms some of US held dearly.
Sorry you are in control of america. Sorry you peed on the constitution.
Sorry you sold out democracy for theocracy.
Any other of YOUR sins I should apologize for?
OF course, you didnt personally do any of those things, did you? Of course, it is a broad brush and you arent one of THOSE christians, are you?
Of course, the ugly truth will cause you to disavow reality.
Of course. It is what we have come to expect from you and yours.
And the typical show of “civility” from our bloggers on the left.
Kevin-There are others that can better describe a troll. I’ll give you the basics. A troll will hijack the nic of a regular poster and post under the assumed name stuff that the regular poster would never say. Like last night on this thread where “Nathan” claimed a high school homosexual encounter. I know the real Nathan and I can absolutely guarantee you that the real Nathan would NEVER post something like that.A troll may also assume a nic that is very similar to an existing posters nic. “Wank Price” as opposed to “Hank Price”.I hope this answers your question.
Nathan just HATES looking in a mirror.
Almost as much as he hates queers.
Nathan,With friends like us who needs enemies? I see how you miss us and have to come and play.Hope you’re staying halfway safe and sound.
as for nathan and his supposed gay encounter in high school…
I know that isnt true. It couldnt be true. How do I know?
No gay man, no matter how desperate, would stoop that low. I cant imagine any gay man wanting nathan.
I know it isnt true. We actually do have some scruples.
I mainly agree, Julie.
But a troll also can repetatively post (spam) with the intention of irritating someone.
I don’t see “Wank Price” as trolling per se unless someone spams it over and over to try to stop the real Hank Price from posting.
hee hee hee hee
and as for nathan and his gay friend(s)…
heheheheh. I am pretty sure that isnt true either.
He may KNOW a gay person or two, but I bet if you asked them, they wouldnt say he is their friend.
Not if they have spoken to him for five seconds….
The exact quote is “the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.”
I thought my post to M was very civil Nathan. M calls for civility. I merely wanted to know from where M was coming in making that request. I tend to judge people by how THEY judge others.
As to the civility of “our bloggers on the left”, it is any number of such folk who busted and ran off a troll posting under your screen nic. Hows about that for civility!
Yeah, well, when I have my CIVIL rights, I will be more willing to be CIVIL.
Hey! Good point, JR!
I hear very few or no right-wing bloggers complaining about those who troll against the libs.
Capn-A while ago (I think it was about a month ago) there was a Wank Price trying to pass himself off as Hank Price. He also trolled Outlander and at least one other regular poster.
Kevin -Trolls do their nasty thing trying to get a rise out of people. The general rule is “Don’t feed the troll” meaning don’t reply because all they’re wanting is the attention.Sometimes trolls are so vile that they are handed their asses by other posters but ‘claim’ victory because they did receive a response.
Kevin,
” If you opened your mind just a little to at minimum read the studies then you may learn to consider that the interpretation of your Bible is incorrect.”
I’m curious as to what you are referring to as an incorrect interpretation of the Bible? Do you have something specific?
…and why does the ayatollah terry not come here himself? Why does he send his little flying monkeys to do the job?
Thomas Witt came here. He didnt need any minions to carry his water.
Too bad the ayatollah doesnt have the courage or the intelligence or the loving heart that thomas has.
Of course, it is hard to relate when you are so above it all. Like the ayatollahs and their taliban terry supporters.
Kansassman,I would refer you and others to read “What the Bible really says about Homosexuality.” It is the scholarly work of religious leaders, not gays. If anything, it will help you think on your own rather than allowing people like Terry Fox to think for you. One doesn’t need a preacher to learn.Thanks
M,
With all due respect, I counter at least one of your statements.
“4.There is no evidence that homosexuals are born as homosexuals.”
Your faith is the only evidence that has ever been presented that God exists.
I do not denounce your faith. You truly have the freedom to believe and worship in the way you choose. (Oops, there’s that “choice” word.) I only point out the flaw in something you have presented, in a way that I hope you can understand.
Kevin…
Terry Fox does NOT think for me.. neither do you… please answer my question…. I am just wanting to know what you consider inaccurate or incorrect….
So I’m getting trolled now on the patriot guard thread.
Any righties gonna defend me like the lefties defended nathan?
KFG,
Your “civil rights?”
The only thing you can’t do is have your relationship endorsed by the state through marriage.
That is it.
Quit crying like you have to sit at the back of the bus…
..and once again, nathan demostrates his knowledge of civil rights.
And the constitution.
And the bill of rights.
And anything remotely associated with freedom.
Confirming what we already know about his vast knowledge of oppression.
Jesus wept.
I just have to ask this question again.
If, to the folks of the middle east, nathan is the face of america….
…do we even have to ASK why they hate us?
Nathan-If a person can not do ALL the stuff that another person can do, how is that not discrimination?So you’d let her get married for all the wrong reasons to a person of the opposite gender (ie – man) but for all the right reasons to marry (love, cherish, commitment…) you won’t simply because she wants to marry a woman.
I am not a rightie, but I’ll be your flying monkey, KFG. I’ll throw those scarecrow parts all over the place. See, they are running in fear now. :-)
[confession - that part of the movie always scared me when I was a kid]
I heard yesterday on NPR that since the Bush junta has taken over, that the civil rights administration suits have been predominately fights about “reverse discrimination” — you know protecting the rights of white males — the poor downtrodden majority… not surprising, I would say.
A link to the NPR story I mention above:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5644165
My problem with the gay marriage ammendment is that it doesn’t accomplish anything. Many well meaning Christians believe that homosexuality is wrong, and they base that off of the Bible, which we as Christians believe to be the word of God. Legislation doesn’t change any hearts, however. Jesus didn’t go to Rome and try to make laws against the tax collectors that were totally ripping of the people in Isreal. He went to the homes of the tax collectors, talked to them, he hung out the adulturers. He changed people by changing their hearts. If Christians want to make in impact in this culture, that is the only way that they can do it. Legislation and aggressivness on the part of Terry Fox only serves to piss people off and make them hate the church and Christianity. Just look at the above posts and you can see that is true.
KFG,
If it is only homosexuality we are talking about in relating to the middle east, I would think that our position on the subject would make them like us more figuring that most of them are even more fanatic about things like this.
You see in those countries you would probably just be killed for being as voiceful as you are about homosexual marriage.
My problem with the gay marriage ammendment is that it doesn’t accomplish anything. Many well meaning Christians believe that homosexuality is wrong, and they base that off of the Bible, which we as Christians believe to be the word of God. Legislation doesn’t change any hearts, however. Jesus didn’t go to Rome and try to make laws against the tax collectors that were totally ripping of the people in Isreal. He went to the homes of the tax collectors, talked to them. He hung out the adulturers and other outcasts of society at the time while the religious leaders mocked him. He changed people by changing their hearts. If Christians want to make in impact in this culture, that is the only way that they can do it. Legislation and aggressivness on the part of Terry Fox only serves to tick people off and make them hate the church and Christianity. Just look at the above posts and you can see that is true. We as Christians should be able to make a stand on what we believe with humility, not arrogance. After all, the Bible teaches us that we are all sinners saved by grace, none of us are any more righteous than the other.
Julie,
Poligamists can’t get married either…
Incestual partners can’t get married either…
It is discrimination I tell you!
Oh, and adults can’t get married to kids…
Felons can’t own weapons…
It might be Discrimination in the technical sense, but not in the Constitutionally protected one, nor do I think it should when it is only a choice.
B,
I agree with pretty much everything in your post, except for the first sentence. I believe every citizen of this country should have the rights and freedoms of this country.
Why haven’t the majority Christian population pushed to outlaw cross-denominational marriage, marriage between non-Christians, marriage between Jews & Christians? How is it that the love, the will of the heart, can be demeaned by Christians as wrong.I grew up with an alcoholic father. It was awful. I have friends who grew up the same way. It seems to me that alcohol destroys the so-called traditional family more than homosexuality. What about cars, as in vehicles, the loss of life due to car wrecks destroys the lives of family members. Are cars a threat to the traditional family? Maybe so. One could argue that driving within the rules would protect your life, but it is not a guarantee.Nathan, tell me how homosexuality is a threat to the traditional family? Where do homosexuals come from, if not from families? Do they miraculouslt emerge from moving cars? They are born unique children of God, just like you. Why not just keep your anti-gay believes in your church and out of other peoples lives. It is hypocrisy to ignore what really hurts families: divorce, alcoholism, child abuse, wife abuse, infidelity, etc. It would be a problem for you to rail against these issues…because these issues occur in traditional family structures. Gays don’t destroy families, heck, they don’t usually start families.I do really want to know what threat homosexuals pose against society? Please someone, tell me.
I’m computer illiterate and posted the same thing twice, and I appoligize. RD, let me clarify. When I say that it doesn’t accomplish anything, I mean that if you are a Christian that honestly believes that homosexuality is wrong and harmfull, an ammendment doesn’t accomplish the goal of communicating that. I too agree that every citixen should have rights and freedoms of this country. Can you even imagine John Adams- probably one of the more religious of the founding fathers ever campaigning for a gay marriage ammendment?
Nathan,
I posted this on the other thread, but you may have missed it.
The main reason polygamy is not legal is because of taxes.
Um, we don’t allow children to drink or vote, either, so I don’t see that argument holding any water.
As for incestual partners… That’s scientifically/biologically based. As the son of a man who knows tons about dog breeding, I’d think you’d realize that.
RD,
Who are we to stand in the way of someones love for one another though?
If they agree to not have kids then why should we stop it?
If people were born loving more than one person then why shouldn’t we recognize their relationships too?
It is not fair! It is discrimination!
Nathan, how nice of you to show your ignorance in comparing homosexual to pedophilia, incest, adult/child relations,poligamy, felons, etc.You see my son, you really have shown your ignorance. Law abiding homosexual who profess love for another homosexual is something we should all support. The government needs be involved when children are involved because it is a scientific fact that children are not mature enough to make rational decisions. This slippery slope argument is just another red herring for you to hide your hatred. Give me a break. Isn’t poligamy, child marriage, incest, all elements of heterosexual relations? You are a hypocrit and might I say, a jackass.
Do all of you know each other?
JB,
I see your point. Thanks for clarifying.
The John Adams part makes me laugh. Not that I necessarily disagree, but the majority of our Founding Fathers were slave owners. And I’m sure we all know the stories about ol’ Ben Franklin’s “families” in Europe. I’d say hypocrisy and discrimination were not unusual for that day and time, but at least they tried. I give them points for what they DID do.
Let’s not forget that women were not allowed to vote. That has changed, as were the laws pertaining to slaves and blacks/AA.
We’ve come a long way, baby. I’d like to see that continue.
Kevin,
Some of us have met at several “meet-ups” in the past. There have been 4, if I count right. They were open to any blogger who wanted to attend. I’m sure the next one, when it’s planned, will be, too. We’d be happy to have you, as we would anyone. Except maybe the trolls.
RD, you point is well made, from Jefferson to Washington many of our founding fathers were slave owners. I try not to look at our history through rosey glasses. You have confirmed, however, why I used the example of John Adams. John Adams very frequently made his case against slavery, along with his very vocal wife, Abigail, who also frequently begged John to allow voting rights for women. Adams was a religious man, and he was one of the most progressive of his day.
Yes Kevin we do know each other. There have been 4 blog meetups where we got together in person and usually have food and talk about stuff usually not politically related. We all get along fine and dandy. Then we go our separate ways and get nasty with each other on the blog.SOME of us are more understanding and tolerant of other because of this face to face meeting.
Well RD – MM did troll crux at the 2nd one to KFG. That was kinda funny (in the fact that JR and Rage didn’t get the response they thought they would).
Here’s the best point of all. On the “Daily Show with John Stewart,” John got William Bennet to reluctantly admit that gay marriage is coming. Sensible rational citizens unite – if Bill Bennet has nearly given up then so will future GOP leaders. We are winning the battle for gay freedom. It just seems like we are losing because Terry Fox and people like Nathan still appeal to the irrational and unAmerican side of our citizens. No rational citizen, if asked to put their religious beliefs to the side, could read the Constitution and Bill of Rights and then support a ban on gay marriage. I like to think of myself as American first. This country was founded by men, not God. If you want to get closer to God I suggest visiting Jeruselum, where God seems to have a handle on everything.
Has crazy Nathan shown up for the in-person meetings?Cool. I commend the idea. It is uncool to carry a personal torch outside of the blog. We do have to get along or risk further alienation.
Yes, Nathan has shown up. He’s been very polite and softspoken.
Kevin…
Putting God first and supporting the Constitution are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Jesus did it.. (well, not OUR Constitution).. but he did allow Caesar what was Caesars.
Been to Jerusalem…like it here, thank you!
Thanks, JB! I’d forgotten about Abigail. I admit to not being all that knowledgable about the FFs and welcome any information.
Julie, I was late and didn’t get in on the beginning of the joke, which accounts for part of the forgetting. :( But it was funny, fer sure.
I’m sure I was born late.
Julie-Off subject : Remember Nathan’s screaming Coulter doll story at the last meet?
I remember hearing about it. That subject may have come up before I got there or during one of my many restroom trips.
Just let me say that as a longstanding member of Immanuel Baptist that Terry Fox doesn’t represent all of us. It has long been very apparent that his sole purpose is expanding the kindom of Terry, not the Kingdom of God. Please be assured that there are many people at Immanuel that are thoughtfull, intellegent people, and we are ready for a new direction at our our church. As for Fox starting a new church at Wild West World, several comments:1)His fake christianity closely matches the fake depiction of the ‘wild west’ at said theme park.2) It only proves that it is ‘all about me’ for Terry Fox. He thinks he can start a new church and take all of the Immanuel members. He has a surprise coming, I think.3)It proves that he has no love for the body of Christ, or the church. If he did, he wouldn’t split a church for personal gain.
“Please be assured that there are many people at Immanuel that are thoughtfull, intellegent people, and we are ready for a new direction at our our church.”
Cool. I’ll be waiting for a public apology from the congregation.
Thanks for your reasoned posts JB. Forgive the snark when I say that I imagine monkeys will fly before such an apology will be made.
Reconciled congregations anyone?
JB, you’ve given us ALL food for thought.
Just goes to show there are always two sides to an argument. We appreciate hearing yours.
hee hee hee hee
Nathan should run for the dictionary again, as the words “informed” “consent” and “adults” clearly have no meaning to him.
He just relies on that old time religion that says if gays can have civil unions, why, they’d marry their german shepards, their siblings, and rape any small child they could find. NAMBLA would win! Goats everywhere would be unsafe!
hee hee hee hee hee.
I wonder how many in-bred, sister screwing, animal humping, poligamist, child molesting and/or rapists are gay…?
Or staight folks who are self identified religious folks?
heheheheh. You decide……..
Informed consent among adults. A concept some of you should try.
KFG-In my line of work I get some pretty messed up people. The reports of incest that I have heard have ALL been male/female NONE have been same gender.
“When Congregations go Wild”?
TM: Utmost respect for Fox. NOT following him to the fun park.
JB: Sounds as if JB would not follow Fox out of a burning building! Much less to to a sideshow.
ksfarmgrrl, I understand your sentiment when you ask for an apology from the church. Keep in mind that most of the Terry Fox sort of people will be leaving Immanuel, and following him to the amusment park. I would like to hear an apology from Fox for the damage that he has done to our church and our reputation, but as you said, that is about as likely as monkeys flying. Remember, though, that many people disagree with the lifestyle of homosexuality, but also disagree with Fox’s strongarm tactics.
Off topic:Terrorist profiling – for it or against? It looks like our airports will be paying closer attention to middle easter travelers.
I am for it. Example, when out local news reports a violent incident or robbery and they provide a description: they will avoid telling us the color of the persons skin. We’ve taken sensitivity too far when we shake down grandma’s at the airport and avoid shaking down each and every middle eastern traveller. This is my philosophy, Nathan may get this one, when I was in the military, if anyone in the platoon caused a problem everyone was punished. If we treat all middle eastern travellers as potential threats then maybe the muslim community will stand up and denounce those killers who claim the same faith. If all the “peaceful religion” muslims in the middle east would actually defend their religion instead of allowing it to be ‘hijacked’ then maybe there would be a downward trend, just like what happens in the platoon, the guy who brings pain to everyone suddenly gets a lesson in conformance from his fellow soldiers.I was reading Drudgereport.com a few minutes ago. I wonder what Pastor Terry would say about racial profiling.
You do not have to wonder what Terry would say about racial profilling. He has expressed opinions about every political topic in the forum today. That is why so many of us at Immanuel are ready for a change. We are ready for a pastor that preaches from the bible on sunday mornings, not the newspaper.
By the way, I am new to blogging. Was that supposed to be an insult JR?
Random thoughts,
I hesitate to enter this particular thread because I basically have no knowledge or opinion about Fox.
Churches should be small and they should be run by elders. The minister should be answerable to the elders. Any time you find a church that is basically controlled by the minister you have the problem of only one person that has to be corrupted to ruin the whole church.
As a member in a church you have the responsibility to be part of the ‘conscience’ of the church. Make your concerns known to the elders. If there are problems in the church that you don’t feel are being appropriately addressed by the elders, find a new church.
If the problem is the minister being unresponsive to the needs of the congregation, fire the minister and get another one. Or, find a new church.
Hank
JB-I don’t think that JR meant that as an insult. You’ll know when you’re being insulted here.Actually I think it’s more of a compliment than anything.
Wow- There must have real torment and pressure at that church!
I’m not that familiar- I’m Druid Reformed, we worship Hybrid Norwegian Spruces.
gster- you got a problem with Dutch Elms?:)
I prefer weeping willows. Graceful and beautiful.
Hank had it right. The problem was that when you expressed concerns you were pretty much told to shut up. He pretty much described Immanuel when we spoke of the pastor taking complete control of the church. People started getting agitated, and leaving, just as you suggested. Finally people got together, and things started getting done. The church leadership finally asked for Fox’s resignation.
I used to watch Fox at midnight on Sat. night. He seemed to worry weekly about imposters sitting in his audience. What was he afraid of?
It’s the Elm Disease thing! Besides, you have to draw the line somewhere, but use pencil in case you have to erase and move it again.
JB
Julie is correct. I meant no insult to you. I was in fact complimenting you and suggesting that you may be quite correct that Fox’s message is Fox. I further implied that as no one here had posted they would be following brother Terry, his “following” may be very diminished.
Church splits are always difficult and usually happen when people start pushing their own agenda rather than Christ’s. This applies to lay leaders as well as pastors.
The church split at Immanuel certainly can’t be layed completely at the feet of Rev Fox from what I have been told by folks in the know there.
Sorry JR, just wasn’t sure what the comment meant. Sometimes the source of the greatest conflicts is assumed insult, so I appreciate the clarifacation.
Outlander, their are obviously always many reasons, and it is hard to lay fault or blame on one person. Let me say as someone who is very involved in the church, however, Terry Fox was asked to resign, and he didn’t go down without a fight. During our sunday service, there was a feeling of reconcilliation and the willingness to move foward, I thought. There was no talk of a split. Then Fox had to come out with his wacky idea to start a church at WWW. So yes, I think the blame for this can be laid at his feet.
No harm no foul JB.
By the way, in the phraseology here an insult is more commonly referred to as a “shot”. So far I got no reason to take one at you.
Hey I’m wondering about something.
Does this mean no more TV for Fox?
If so I make you a bet that he will get another “show”. The guy is a glory hound and not in a good way.
Not only was Fox not on television last saturday night, but all of his audio sermons have been taken down from the Immanuel website “amenibc.org” Immanuel won’t be supporting his bids for glory anymore. It is funny, my wife and I were just discussing him getting a new show. I see your wager, and up it by saying that I think he will try to have his new show programed at the same time as the Immanuel TV broadcast.
If Pat “gays are responsible for Katrina” Robertson and Jerry “gays are responsible for 9-11″ Falwell can STILL have their own national shows…
…and if bill o’liely still has his show…
…I dont thing the joe and terry show will have any problem finding a national wingnut venue.
Like the wichita station that shows pat every morning. yikes.
THAT is the reason I have satellite tv.
JB: Suffice to say that others I have spoken with don’t see it as you do. They don’t think Rev Fox was fairly treated.
It’s a shame. And since it is not my church, I will leave it at that.
Sounds like Hank had it right- big churches and big egos go hand in hand!
ignore the troll.
Outlander-others at the church don’t know the whole story because the church leadership has chosen not to drag Fox’s name through the mud. The leadership at the church did everything with maturity and wisdom, which cannot be said for Terry Fox. Fox was more than fairly treated- he was given guarentee of his salary for the rest of the year or until he found a new ministry so that he and his family wouldn’t be left out in the cold. Fox has no restraint, he will do whatever he can to make the leadership at the church look bad. As for big churches and big egos- that may be very true, but a big church can also do many good things, especially in the way of social ministries for the homeless, ect. A large portion of Immanuels budget is spent on those sorts of projects.
“others at the church don’t know the whole story because the church leadership has chosen not to drag Fox’s name through the mud.”
JB: What exactly then is it that you are doing here?
gster,
On the other end of the spectrum, small churches can have small minds.
outlander,I’m not sure that I understand the context of your question.”Here” on the message board? Because I am interested in knowing what people think and what they are saying, and I enjoy taking part in lively discussion.It is also imperative for people to know that their are other sides to the issue than what Fox has chosen to be let released to the media. I will not eloborate on that any farther.”Here” at Immanuel? I stay at Immanuel because I believe God can work powerfully through bad situation.I am compelled to refute the statement that ‘fox wasn’t treated fairly.’ That couldn’t be farther from the truth.
RD- You’re right- guess I’ll stick with trees and no damm dogs!!
kevin, what troll?
I saw some graffiti.Didn’t read any of it though.(shake, shake, shake)(spray, spray)
There it’s gone.
Okay, now what were you saying?
hee hee hee hee hee hee Tracy!
I have not understood why it takes a bible for people to believe in God. I believe in God and consider myself to be moral, loving, funny, and feel that we all will go to heaven. It makes no sense for God to separate us based on our sins or our attitudes. What exactly will happen to the tribesman of the Amazon when they die? They do not know of the bible. Is God going to cast them out. It makes no sense, none of it. God welcomes us all into heaven. Heck, we don’t need Terry Fox to go to heaven, all we need to do is die. Based on that, I am not ready. I would like to make love a whole lot more. Now, here’s a shocker – I only believe in heaven. This means I believe that all of those who have passed before us are in heaven, including the bad guys. God gave us free will. How we use the free will is up to us. If we hurt others we are bad. If we do not hurt others we are thought of as generally okay.There will be no rapture. There may be a scorched earth, in that case we all go to heaven. Two men loving each other does not hurt anyone. How exactly did they enforce the sodomy laws a long time ago? Peeping Toms?
Well,
I said that I would be civil in my response to those who could or would remain civil. I have neither the time or purpose to match sarcastic dribble with sarcastic dribble.
Again, if anyone wishes to to discuss points of issue, let’s discuss. My son, who finished third in the nation in debate, has always said that when a person attacks the messenger with verbal assults, adhominen, and dribble, they do so because they have lost the debate (argument).
To KSfamrgirl- As best I can tell from your post, you choose to not believe the bible. Your choice, your right and your privilege. No harm, no foul. But because I have studied the history and the archeologocal proof that demonstrates the words, accounts and stories in the bible as true and factual, that gives you the right to say I am stupid? I guess you have the right, but by what means do you base my intellect?
Regarding science and homosexuality…. for every science report you find that says that homosexuality is genetic, I can show you one that says it is not. Some of you out there who are casual believers in God/Christ say that God made them this way. Okay, since you make reference to the fact that God made them this way, you ackowledge several things here:
1. there is a God2. He made man3. He has the ability to create man/woman with a sexual orientation that He ultimately disavowed.
Stating the above, please explain then why God in both the Old and New testament, condemns homosexuality.
Why did God destroy Soddom & Gommorah? (no, please don’t use the old inhospitality arguemnt. The original Hebrew does not explain it that way.) Why would a God who supposedly created homosexuals opt to later destroy them and speak against them?
Moving back to Terry for a moment…. He was wrong, he is wrong and I trust that at some point God will deal with him in His way and His time. And why would the congregation owe anyone an apology, what did they do wrong?
One final note, have you noticed with the exception of KSfrmgrl that I have not singled anyone out nor have I attacked anyone. I don’t need to because when it is all said and done, we can walk away to agree to disagree and that I do not need to revert to name calling or insults. I try to set a tone that is conducive to hearing ones argument.
Whether you are left or right, as long as we stick with facts, we should be able to have a civil debate. Unfortunatley there are some on here who can’t help but to hurl insults, perhaps it makes them feel smarter and better.
One more thing, to whom ever it was that wanted to know how I voted on the marriage amendment…having served twice in Viet Nam, I think probably more so than most on this blog, I have earned the right to vote on whatever issues I want, whomever I want and on those matters that I feel strongly about. How I vote neither describes my inellect, my heart or my opinion, it does however decribe my convictions. So, when asking me how I voted on the Marriage Amendment, I voted my convictions.
It does not take a bible to believe in God. Christians believe, however, that God gave us the Bible as a guide for our lives. I don’t think that you have to be a Christian to be a moral person. My dad, for instance was a very moral person before he became a Christian, like you Kevin, moral, loving and funny. He found that something was missing his his life after many many years of being sure that he didn’t the Bible or Christianity. Can I explain this is cut and dry terms? No. that is why it is called faith. Take it or leave it. I will not force it upon you, through legislation, which is why I differ from Terry Fox.
“How exactly did they enforce the sodomy laws a long time ago? Peeping Toms?”
1)pecker checks2)scratch n’ sniff
M,God destroyed sodom & gomorrah because Lot was nearly gang raped by men. There was no civility in sodom & gomorrah. People did what they pleased and took advantage of others. It had nothing to do with homosexuality, it had to do with morality. I challenge you to read “What the Bible really says about homosexuality.” It is a scholary study done by men of God, not liberal gays.As for scientific proof – well, when science is involved it can be proven, when bible thumpers are involved it cannot be proven. I tend to think I would trust a scientist before I would trust a bible thumper.Please read the book I recommended. It may not change your mind but it does present facts from the scriptures that I believe refute the hateful vile that so-called Christians have used for centuries to hate gays. No one answered my earlier call about why we have so much divorce and the only thin Christians seem to unite over is holding down gay people.M – please explain alcoholism, wife abuse, child abuse, incest, etc. These are the problems coming from your version of a sacred marriage? It’s east to hate gays so you don’t have to focus on your own family history.
As Billy Joe Shaver says, “If you don’t believe in Jesus Christ you can go to hell.”I’ve always liked that line.
Speaking of dogs; one of my favorite subjects!
Have you heard about the dyslexic, agnostic insommniac?
He stays awake all night wondering if doG exists!
Hank
M–
You ask the question, why would God create homosexuals if he hates homosexuality?
HOLD EVERYTHING! Stop right there.
This is one aspect of the key question for us moderns as we contemplate the nature of God.
Why did God create EVIL?
Why did God create pain and suffering?
Why did God create disease and death, mental illness, physical deformity?
Why does God permit evildoers to flourish and the good to suffer?
*****
When you can answer those questions, then you can answer the question about “why would God create homosexuality?”
If only God would give me some clear sign! Like making a large deposit in my name in a Swiss bank…..Woody Allen
M, I agree with your convictions concerning the Bible, ect. When it came to the vote on gay marriage, I had a strong conviction that was wrong. I have seen nothing but isolation and hatred for the church as a result, it has done nothing to help bring people to a relationship with Christ. I felt very strongly that I should vote against it, although I don’t look down on you in any way, shape or form for voting for it. My whole family voted for it. Personally, I just didn’t agree with it.
No Hank, he was walking by the neighbors fenced in dogs and wondered why they wanted him to beware of god.
The world teacher is that great being who the Christian calls the Christ; He is known also in the Orient as the Bodhisattva, and as the Lord Maitreya, and is the one looked for by the devout Mohammedan, under the name of the Iman Mahdi.He it is who has presided over the destinies of life since about 600 B.C. and he it is who has come out among men before, and who is again looked for. He is the Great Lord of Love and of Compassion, just as his predecessor, the Buddha, was the Lord of Wisdom. …He is the the Master of the Masters, and the Instructor of the Angels, and to him is committed the guidance of the spiritual destinies of men, and the development of the realization within each human being that HE IS a child of God and a son of the Most High.
My own feeling is that society benefits from many different types of people.
Shy, introverted people are not valued as much in our society as extroverts, but where would we be without computer nerds, writers, and researchers?
Similarly, gayness and creativity seem to run side-by-side. Gertrude Stein, George Sand, Tennessee Williams, Christopher Marlowe, and James Baldwin were gay writers. Tchaikovsky, a gay composer. Laurence Olivier, Rock Hudson, Ian Maclellan, actors.
They seem to be over-represented in creative fields.
God did create homosexuals, it is true that it is genetic. Race mixing and the producing of mixed race offspring is a true sin and a wicked act. If so-called Christians have no objection to race mixing, they should shut up about homosexuality!
V.L.R.B!!
M,I voted against the people with disabilities act because I just don’t believe many of the deformed and retarded were born that way. They are choosing it. If they just prayed more their disabilities would dissapear and they would be able to tithe the preacher on sunday.
Not that Ian would ever consider scientific fact . . . he’s far too gone in his own hate-filled world for that.
But for the rest of us, here’s an interesting article about how all men are literally brothers:
http://www.wilmingtonstar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060702/NEWS/607020416/-1/State
Roots of human family tree seem remarkably shallow
By Matt CrensonAssociated Press
Whoever it was probably lived a few thousand years ago, somewhere in East Asia – Taiwan, Malaysia and Siberia all are likely locations. He – or she – did nothing more remarkable than be born, live, have children and die.
Yet this was the ancestor of every person now living on Earth – the last person in history whose family tree branches out to touch all 6.5 billion people on the planet today.
That means everybody on Earth descends from somebody who was around as recently as the reign of Tutankhamen, maybe even during the Golden Age of ancient Greece. There’s even a chance that our last shared ancestor lived at the time of Christ.
“It’s a mathematical certainty that that person existed,” said Steve Olson, whose 2002 book Mapping Human History traces the history of the species since its origins in Africa more than 100,000 years ago.
Kevin,
How does one chose to be deformed or retarded? Can you go for both? Huh?
Gster–
I’m pretty sure Kev’s post was SATIRE, dude.
And here’s some more fascinating stuff from the article–
But few people realize just how intricately that web connects them not just to people living on the planet today, but to everyone who ever lived.
With the help of a statistician, a computer scientist and a supercomputer, Olson has calculated just how interconnected the human family tree is. You would have to go back in time only 2,000 to 5,000 years – and probably on the low side of that range – to find somebody who could count every person alive today as a descendant.
Furthermore, Olson and his colleagues have found that if you go back a little farther – about 5,000 to 7,000 years ago – everybody living today has exactly the same set of ancestors. In other words, every person who was alive at that time is either an ancestor to all 6 billion people living today, or their line died out and they have no remaining descendants.
That’s what I thought, but I couldn’t resist being a smartass.
Well, I consider my lack of endowment a deformity…M. would argue that I chose to have a shorty.I have prayed, BELIEVE ME, I have prayed for more….but nothing has happened. Dear God, grant me the correct measurement that would fit what the society would expect. M. doesn’t like me because I am different.
Well! It’s been hours since my last post and wouldn’t ya know it, still no rational reasons on how homosexual relationships or marriages are the coup de grace to heterosexual marriages! I must confess I too parroted the same nonsense as these Pharisaic Christians until I witnessed with my own two eyes the outright hatred and bigotry that was desplayed by some local Pharisee Christian teenagers towards a peer of theirs that they knew was gay. Shunning and a cold shoulder was what he received, then as he said hello to them he got a snide “get lost faggot”/”Go screw your daddy” “Fuck off homo” concerto from these seemingly good Christian teenage guys who were less than 5 minutes ago speaking beautifully about the love Christ and how he showed his love to men of all colors and creeds. (They were I suspect trying to convert me to their faith) “Do you know Jesus” they asked of me? I just got up and left. They don’t know shit about Jesus, and if that’s the kind of Jesus they believe excuses their atrocious behavior towards another human being then I don’t want to know about “their Jesus.”Whitewashed tombs,a beautiful display of godliness on the outside, decrepit and filled with hatred on the inside. Now what do you think Jesus would have said to those modern-day Pharisees M?
kevin yours may be the kindest religious attitude I have encountered!
JB is also reassuring.
M
It was I that wondered as to your vote on the hate amedment. You have “sort of” “answered” me. And you have expounded and revealed a great deal more about yourself! I do not think you and I are going to agree on much. It is my perception that you……..the best way I can put it is you rather fancy yourself.
I value intellectual honesty M. You have invited me and our readers to guess how you voted on a state constitutional amendmenet that marginalized and restricted a group of people. A piece of law specifically created to DENY freedom. These parts we refer to it as the “hate amendment”. You will need to more specifically answer that question and give reasons if you wish to be regarded credibly.
“Hank had it right. The problem was that when you expressed concerns you were pretty much told to shut up. He pretty much described Immanuel when we spoke of the pastor taking complete control of the church. People started getting agitated, and leaving, just as you suggested. Finally people got together, and things started getting done. The church leadership finally asked for Fox’s resignation.”JB:How do you know what happened at Immanuel regarding Terry? Who told you???!!!! “IF” you love Terry and Barbara, you need to learn to keep your mouth shut, especially when you don’t have all the facts. Now if you’re a deacon or a deacon told you, then both of you should be disciplined.Are you listening to gossip or did you find out directly from Terry?My brother-in-law is a deacon there. We are saddened and heartbroken to lose Terry, but the church does not revolve around one man. Jesus Christ is still the HEAD of the church and we follow HIS teachings and HIS word.Terry has left and is moving on to what he believes God has called him to do. Immanuel Church is looking to the future also and you should do the same.
The Lord works in mysterious ways…
Hey, by the way. It worked! It grew! It grew!
M. you may be onto something.
“… or their line died out and they have no remaining descendants.”
Or was drowned in the “great flood” that only Noah, his family, and two of every animal species survived?
Capn..
“Why did God create EVIL?
Why did God create pain and suffering?
Why did God create disease and death, mental illness, physical deformity?
Why does God permit evildoers to flourish and the good to suffer?
*****
When you can answer those questions, then you can answer the question about “why would God create homosexuality?”"
Given enough time, I could answer most if not all of those questions.. but I don’t know that you are really interested in that, so I will go straight to “why would God create homosexuality?”
The answer: He wouldn’t and He didn’t. His Creation was perfect until sin entered the world through Satan. At that point, all things became imperfect. Man at that point, became genetically capable of developing homosexual traits, as well as all the other sinful tendencies in our human nature!
Responding directly……
kevin, thank you for acknowledging the fact that I had a right to vote my convictions. I am truly glad that you exercised your convictions as you saw fit. See, civil, respectful and we walk away respectfully disagreeing
After your civil tone in the one post, you use rhetoric and attacks in another (bible thumpers?) Is it that you can’t help yourself or do you have to be mean about what you feel is right or wrong?
You ask me to read a book about what some godly men said the what the bible says about homosexuality. You then say that these are godly men who wrote the book. Godly by whose or what standards. Are these men predisposed to accept homosexuality as an alternative lifestyle? I readily admit that there are godly men such as Dr. ALbert Mohler, DR. Paige Patterson, Dr. Bill Dembski who are godly men and would debunk or debate what the godly men who wrote this book had to say, And, I admit they are predesposed to beleive that homosexuality is wrong. So, whose godly men are more accurate?
You refer to science as trumping the bible. You did not address the issue of historical and archeological evidence to the accounts and stories of the bible. Many peoplee say they believe part of the bible but not all of it. Really? which part is factual and which part is not?
And no, I asked you please to not use the weak an inaccurate argument that Soddom was destroyed for its inhospitality (civility is the same thing), that is not correct.
M – please explain alcoholism, wife abuse, child abuse, incest, etc. These are the problems coming from your version of a sacred marriage? It’s east to hate gays so you don’t have to focus on your own family history………
They are all a disease and brought on by ones own desires or hatred.
ksfrmgrl, what is the foundation of your belief? what is it and what evidence do you have to believe that all peolple go to heaven, given that you believe in heaven. Why do you believe in heaven, what have you read that would cause you to believe in heaven/ what proof do you have that there is a heaven? And on and on and On………
If any of you wish to have many of your questions answered then go to
http://www.stoplyingtous.com
or Dr. Bill Dembski web site (you will have to look it up) BEWARE, they only engage in intellectual and honest discussion, no rhetoric, attacks, adhominen or unfounded statements. History, science and fact is it. If some of you post as you have done on this blog, your post will not make it past the monitor. It’s not censorship, but keeping the discussion honest. to the point and….with civility.
Shalom
M
heheheheh
and once again, just because I know the righties wont click on it.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364×1913343
I dont agree with the hysterical tone, but I see more and more people are catching on to “the” agenda.
heeeeeee
Cap’n A,Read your link; it raises a lot more questions than it answers. I wouldn’t take that as gospel without a lot more confirmation. Remember the words of the illustrious Mark Twain- ” There are liars, damned liars and statisticians!”
“IF” you love Terry and Barbara, you need to learn to keep your mouth shut,
Or what!? You gonna break our legs if we express our opinion? Perhaps you should sit back from the computer and re-evaluate the purpose of a BLOG site! Where do you get off tellin people to shut up? Because you don’t like what you hear you tell people to shut up? How are you different from a fascist?
“ksfrmgrl, what is the foundation of your belief? what is it and what evidence do you have to believe that all peolple go to heaven, given that you believe in heaven. Why do you believe in heaven, what have you read that would cause you to believe in heaven/ what proof do you have that there is a heaven? And on and on and On………”
Isnt “on and on” a Stephen Bishop song?
Uh, M, I think you once again belong to the reading and comprehension challenged conservative group on this blog. Otherwise known as the Right Wing Hooked on Phonics Group.
heheheheheh
Go back and READ. real slow now.
I never said those things. It was someone else. Kevin. but know all words that begin with K must look alike to you and your phellow phonics phools.
I dont believe in heaven or hell. The basis of my belief is my personal experience.
I have had enough experience with “christians” to last a lifetime.
I dont have to get bitten by a snake TWICE to understand it’s nature.
I hear hissing. Ruby, is that you?
Ok I know that last was not addressed to me but there are a number of glaring problems with your last post TM. JBs answer will be interesting.
TM :”……you were pretty much told to shut up”
ALSO TM :”……you need to learn to keep your mouth shut…….”you should be disciplined.”
Hypocrisy anyone?
The above also is at odds with your seeming satisfaction that “things started getting done”
Maybe JB was one of the doers? Maybe not. But using again your own words ….”you don’t have all the facts.”
Also there is an abundance of punctuation in your posts which suggests emotion…..of some sort.
Sorry, I had to point that out.
TM do you agree brother Terry will likely get another TV ministry and possibly oppose it to Immanuels broadcast? Just wondering.
Hey what is the ayatollah’s middle name? Does it begin with an M? As in TM?
And M is posting here?
And kennedy’s secretary was lincoln and lincoln’s secretary was kennedy…
things that make ya go hmmmmmmmmmm
TM,What kind of mafiosi organization do you belong to that you tell people to “shut up” and advocate that people be “disciplined” by stating their beliefs and opinions on a certain topic? Is this not a free country?
Farm Gal,Ran into a couple of CUI’s a while back- they saw fomenting war in the middle-east as a way to kick-start Armageddon and bring about the second coming. And they had no respect for Jewish people as anything more than potential christians. Very real, and very dangerous nutcases!
M.I refer to bible thumpers as those who stand behind the bible when faced with overwhelming evidence that they are wrong.I ask that you read the book I recommended. That’s all, just read it.I doubt that you came of all this biblical wisdom by just reading the bible. I suspect your wisdom comes from years of sitting in a pew listening to a preacher tell you what the bible means.So, if you are a person of reason then I suggest you read the book I recommended. Do you fear that coming out from behind your bible may expose you to another world, a modern world.I will not refute archeaology in the bible for the simple fact it was written by men. Heck, I could tell you that 600 miles away there stands a great mountain. It’s named Pikes Peak. I have no idea who names it…so it must have been God.Pastor Terry is no different than the disciples, and no different than you and I. We believe what we believe. They put it into writing, and the rest of us have had to put up with the thumper revolution ever since.Here is a question? Do you think the USA is morally bankrupt? Do you believe our secular laws are not enough? Or do you think we have managed to create the best free state ever known. Keep your biblical believes out of my life and out of my bedroom. I don’t come to your bedroom and preach to you, so please respect my life.M. explain Noah and the two of all species thing. Impossible! But please explain it in archaeological terms, historical terms, not mystical, please.
If you are in a position of responsibility or authority, you really shouldn’t air your church organization’s dirty laundry in public. Especially in a place like this.
“Hank had it right. The problem was that when you expressed concerns you were pretty much told to shut up. He pretty much described Immanuel when we spoke of the pastor taking complete control of the church. People started getting agitated, and leaving, just as you suggested. Finally people got together, and things started getting done. The church leadership finally asked for Fox’s resignation.”As I stated in my previous post, since “JB” says he is member of Immanuel, and “IF” he loves Terry and Barbara, he, “JB” should not be repeating gossip from within the church unless it comes from Terry himself. That is WHY I said he should shut up. If JB wants to spread gossip about what allegedly happened regarding Terry, then be my guest to believe him.
M,
I think you’re confused. Kevin was the one who said he believed only in heaven.
M.,Please do not take this as off color or disrespectful. The sexual actions that occur between two men or two men are exactly the same as sexual relations that take place between heterosexuals.Oral/Anal/toys/,etc. take place in nice loving heterosexual bedrooms. Now, what also occurs between gay partners is love – wholesome love, just like the kind that propels two heterosexual people to marry. Explain to me how the sex and love is different between het’s and hom’s?Just number wise there are a lot more heterosexuals having anal and oral sex than homosexuals.I truthfully want an explanation about the difference in the behaviors. Is it okay for hetero’s to have oral/anal but forbidden for gay couples?
This is a rough forum. I’ve been here since the beginning The debates are in your face. I’m as much a part of that as anyone. But I am as fair as most and more so than some.
TM you are the first poster I remember who told someone to “shut up”.
We do not suppress opinions here.
The blogger’s name is always at the bottom of their entry.
Herman Munster I presume.
I see Smeagol is prowling around looking for raw fish again.
M.,I am going out to eat. I will catch back up in a little while.To all the rest, enjoy.
Ignore it.
Archaeologically, the great flood that covered the earth during the time of Moses has been disproven.
As a history of the Hebrew people, I would expect many things to be factual in the OT, but just because towns, cities and some incidents, such as the destruction of cities, are true, it doesn’t mean everything is fact.
“We do not suppress opinions here.”JR:JB was repeating what he heard from someone at Immanuel. He was NOT expressing his “opinion” in that particular quote. Quote from JB’s post (”Hank had it right. The problem was that when you expressed concerns you were pretty much told to shut up. He pretty much described Immanuel when we spoke of the pastor taking complete control of the church. People started getting agitated, and leaving, just as you suggested. Finally people got together, and things started getting done. The church leadership finally asked for Fox’s resignation.”)
I do not appreciate anyone repeating “heresay” and “gossip”, when they don’t have ALL the facts, that’s all.
TM,
People have been asking for “all the facts” for over a week now. I know you’ve protested that Pastor Fox’s departure should be a private matter within the church, but the fact is, Fox made himself into a public figure. Not only that, he made himself a public figure *in the context of his position* at Immanuel. He did that with the implied support of the church leadership and the church congregation. Given *those* facts, complaints about the public’s interest in this story seem more than just a little self-serving.
If you don’t want “heresay and gossip” because we don’t have “all the facts,” there’s an easy resolution: Go public with all the facts.
BTW, no matter what “all the facts” turn out to be, I’m betting that when the truth of all this comes out, we’ll see that Preacher Terry should be doing a little more practicing and a little less preaching.
TM
Then take several deep breaths and count to 10 before you hit “post TM
Posting to JB: “You should keep your mouth shut” is pretty explicit. Given that you share a church with this person, that statement and your call for him to disciplined could be considered a mild implied threat. That is also something we do not do here.
Has it occurred to you TM that your church might benefit from a good airing on this issue?. For you see, if you do not tell the story you invite others to do it. JB at least speaks as a member of the congregation. His take on the matter should be something you should be seeking to understand not shout down.
TM, if you are stil out their,I don’t appreciate my love or commitment for the church being questioned, and I have not aired anything in public that is not already known. Perhaps your angry reaction gives some insight into that fact that your scared of something?If you read my posts, I have defended the church and the people of the church. The members of Immanuel are good people. I happen to think based on my observations, not gossip, not rumors, not anything, that Fox is a swindler, and has decieved the people of Immanuel. This would be a church issue if Fox hadn’t first taken all of this into the public forum, with his opinion being expressed all the time.The facts that are in the open are that Fox was forced to resign. He would not have been forced to resign if he hadn’t done something wrong enough for the church leadership to make that decision. I don’t base that opinion on gossip- it is all fact. If you want to shut me up with strong arm tactics, then I know how desperate you are.
Where did all you bastards go?
Hey guys, thanks for the sales lead LOL
JB-I’m not concerned about who shot John at your church,but even a cursory reading of recent posts says that you are trying to say what happened, and TB is trying to hide things. I know nothing more than that, but I think that you are on the course that is right for you, and I’ll butt out!
I know you are new to blogging JB. But this is why blogging matters.
The media is corrupted and coopted and from both sides of the political spectrum.
Blogging is a way for the individual to make a difference.
This is why I called out TM. I’ve been on this forum over a year. I have seen the most vicious of shots hurled and fired a few of my own. I have seen posters discredited, trashed, threatened and even outright lied about in an attempt to destroy their credibility.
I have NEVER seen one poster tell another to “shut up”.
If you have a story to tell and are comfortable telling it and feel confident that it is true you have not only the right but the obligation to tell it. Because otherwise it does not get told. This forum is virtually anonymous and we tend to protect the sharing of information.
M.I believe is out of commission. I am guessing the explicitness of my last question to M. most likely sent him/her to the pew or to the dvd player.Good ole Chrisianity. It ain’t what it used to be…or maybe it is. The debate continues. When faced with reality in modern times the free thinkers and moderate minds will always prevail, even when Terry Fox and his like are rallying sycophants who need something to hate besides themselves.May the God we all believe in bless our souls for wasting precious time arguing over the inevitable. We will all die. Gay people are being born every day. Bigots are being trained every day, and clown acts join the Wild West Show every once in a while.
I just think it is important for people to know that their are Christian out their who are thinking, and don’t always take what their leaders say at face value. If anything, we have a responsiblity to question and to think, and I get frustrated when people try to stop that process. I couldn’t agree more with JR’s last couple posts. Fox is in the public forum because he put himself there, and people have a right to question what is going on. He has made himself a public figure, so he deserves public scrutiny.I appreciate those out their who have had an open mind and are willing to listen. I will definently post again in the future, but real life calls now.
To equate homosexuality with evil, pain, suffering, is stupid. If you’re going to make those kinds of comparisons, then heterosexual relationships might be more the equivilent of evil, pain, and suffering. I see a lot of societies problems that come from irresponsible sexual relationships between men and women.
Mary,What defines an irresponsible sexual relationship between consenting adults? Of course lying and failure to practice safe sex, but are there other things that could be considered irresponsible?
I found out that the reason Fox is going to Wild West World is because they are planning to open up a side show exhibit. So between the bearded lady and the man with snake skin will be Terry Fox, the living man with no heart.
Now Doug, Terry must have a heart. He seems to love Joe Wright and Fred Phelps.
“The facts that are in the open are that Fox was forced to resign. He would not have been forced to resign if he hadn’t done something wrong enough for the church leadership to make that decision. I don’t base that opinion on gossip- it is all fact.”JB:The information in this quote that you just shared in this post IS rumor and gossip. I heard the same rumor and asked my family member who is a Deacon. He said Terry was NOT forced to resign.Terry tendered his resignation, the Deacons and Staff met that Sunday afternoon for about 5 hours, took a vote and all voted to accept his resignation.
You seem to have shut up JB for now TM.
But the truth will out.
It is best that Immanuel and its congregation tell its story which will otherwise likely take on a life of its own.
And Fox will go off to lead the few “true believers” in a forum provided by one of them.
JR:There may be more to Terry’s resignation and it may get ugly and it may not. But, until all is known as fact and not gossip or heresay, then that’s all it is, gossip and heresay.
RD..
“Archaeologically, the great flood that covered the earth during the time of Moses has been disproven.”
LOL.. there is a joke asking “How many of each kind of animal did Moses take on the Ark?”?
It was long before Moses, and I have yet to see such proof that it never happened.. please post a link if you have one.
TM..IMHO, It is REALLY hard for me to believe that God would call a Pastor of a large congregation to create controversy and divide His church… now Satan on the other hand would love that.
On the lighter side, I just have 2 questions about the new WWW church: 1) Will the Prairie Rose Wranglers be doing the Praise and Worship? and 2) Will the luncheons be pot luck or Chuckwagon? (GRIN)
Kevin, I guess the abundance of cervical cancer, std’s, unwanted children, and broken hearts, to name a few.If anyone thinks that somehow heterosexual relationships are good and homosexual relationships are bad, then just look at the consequences of both and think about which one has a more negative impact on our culture. Right now the largest group of people living under the poverty level are children with single mothers. How many gay people do you know in that situation?
kansassam:I am personally heartbroken to see Pastor Terry and Barbara leave Immanuel.However, I know that he left his prior church in Corpus Christi, TX after about the same amount of time, ten years.He led us through an immense building program and did many other positive things for Immanuel.I don’t believe he came to Wichita to create controversy and divide Immanuel.I think it is turning out that way because of his abrupt resignation.He said on the radio program “Answering the Call” that he is working to put together a Staff for this “New Church”.He continues his mantra that he will be out of town during each week and home to preach on Sunday.Honestly, who would want an unavailable Pastor. What about visiting the sick and infirmed, visiting people in jail, weddings and funerals, etc.? Who will handle all of those responsibilities while he is out of town each week.I believe, and this is my personal opinion, that there is a very small “core group” of people, maybe 100 people, from Immanuel, who have begged him to start this new church and they will support him. I believe they will become disillusioned and come back to Immanuel, but for whatever reason they just can’t let go of him.Like I said in one of my prior posts, Immanuel does not revolve around one man, but rather we go to Church to worship God, not the preacher.Immanuel is my church family and I intend to stick by them, pray for them and support them.
Oh bloggety blog blog blog!
TM…
You are doing the right thing. To make it clear.. I don’t have a problem with Rev Fox leaving Immanuel.. that happens alot… but starting a new church so close by and so soon is very divisive.. IMHO.I also see it having a detrimental effect on East Metro. They are growing and planning on building a new facility somewhere in the NE part of town. This can only draw away from them as well…
“I have NEVER seen one poster tell another to ’shut up’.”………JRJust trying to help JR.FYIGuess who?
“If so-called Christians have no objection to race mixing, they should shut up about homosexuality!”
Can anyone tell me if there are any mixed race couples who attend IBC? I have a feeling that like minded people attend like minded gatherings. It’s easy to hate gays because everyone hates gays: rednecks, blacks, asians, whites, Jews, Muslims, Nazi’s, etc.But hating mixed race couples is something kept underwraps for fear of unleashing a political nightmare. Has Rev. Fox ever officiated a mixed race wedding?Isn’t is amazing what was not learned from the Holocaust. Hitler hated gays and modern religion felt that part of the holocaust was maybe, just maybe, justifiable.Didn’t good Baptist men hang black men not so long ago?Who else will religious zealots persicute in the name of God? Gays? Yep.
M, you are pathetic in your thin apologies for the destruction brer fox has caused. You are so transparent, if you had a heart, we could see the blood flowing. But you dont, so we cant!
JB, while I like most of what you say, I dont understand why the congregation cant apologize to the gay community and the community at large for all the division, hate and destruction caused under the banner of their church.
Except, as you point out, the oh so righteous CHURCH members dont think THEY did anything wrong by enabling and bankrolling the ayatollah’s jihad. How convenient to NOW blame it all on terry when you all members were on board, emotionally, spiritually, and FINANCIALLY the whole time.
flip flop?
I think an apology is in order. Until then, heheh, we are watching and waiting. No one is perfect and when the church eventually slips up in their denials, or the truth outs about this church and their evil deeds and words…
…we will be watching. Again.
Nice of taliban terry to make himself and you all such public figures.
Now is one HELL of a time to be saying good bye to rubbish. AFTER the harm is done.
But I see that being from Immanuel means never having to say you are sorry.
Gee, I guess brother ayatollah terry fox just COULDNT be bothered to pay his property taxes?
A god fearing man like him doing a little more civil disobedience like his Operation Rescue Buddies?
He just REFUSES to pay his taxes? We already knew he was special under god’s law, but under civil law as well?
I guess when you are the supreme ayatollah of blurring the lines between church and state, it is EASY to forget that you owe $1238.64 in back property taxes.
heheheh
I see, on the Sedgewick County Treasurer’s website, that he hasnt paid his taxes for 2004 ($434.18) or for 2005($804.46).
So, do we now know the reason he extored an entire year’s worth of severance pay from his “church”?
He needed the money?
heheheheh ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Where are all you right wing conservatives who hate paying your taxes? Do you think it is ok for taliban terry to just IGNORE his property taxes? Too high? Just dont pay them!
The rule of LAW is, well, just for the little people. And gays. But for the rest of the most self righteous citizens? “Eh…not so much?”
He didnt get ENOUGH tax breaks at the church? So he just doesnt pay his property taxes?
Or did he get too many tax breaks and draw the attention of the IRS?
heheheheheheheheheh
He does indeed, as kansassam pointed out yesterday, have GREAT difficulty rendering unto Ceasar what is Ceasar’s.
Do you think he might have as much trouble rendering unto god what is god’s?
heheheh.
The devil wears a bracelet that says “what would terry, joe and phred do?”
Where is M.? We need to hear from you. Please don’t give us that tired old “turn the other cheek and walk away” bit. You never turned your cheek away from gays so don’t hide amidst your bible dust from us.Maybe, just maybe, old Pastor Fox will get wrangled and dumped into a horse trough by a couple of Brokeback wranglers out there at the Wild West home for lost bigots.
kansassam,
There was indeed a flood in the region where Noah was. I don’t deny that. There were floods in many regions and at many times. But one great flood that covered the earth? Many scientists say no.
Here’s one link. If you want to see more, I suggest you google ‘great flood debunked’ or something similar.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_geology
Just a quick comment -
I have been living out of the state off and on for the past few years and one common stereotype for Kansas is that we’re a bunch of backwoods rednecks. This is not based on the evolution hearings, but just an idea in general.
After reading this thread, it would be hard to disagree. What I have seen is people trying to state a point in an anti-intellectual manner. We can all agree that Terry Fox was wrong in what he did and that there is probably much more going on behind the scenes. At the same time, you don’t need to act like a monkey throwing its dung at innocent passer bys when trying to prove your point.
There is a way to prove you point without acting like an idiot, but many of you have failed to accomplish this.
A lot of you sit there and mock Christianity but lack any proper intellectual backbone to really validate these anti-claims. Sure, you will attempt to bait me, but why? Why should I jump into a sandbox that has been shat upon by people who do not know how to form a constructive argument in a civilized fashion?
Poor Kansas. Many of you only perpetuate the stereotype that Kansas is full of idiots by acting like little children trying to prove your point. That goes for both sides of the issue.
Regardless of the absolute idiocy I will get in return, I should make a few general comments:
To those that believe all Christians only read the Bible and learn from a pastor, you should get out once in a while. I am a Christian, an orthodox Christian, and I venture to say I have read more books and watched more programs that attempt to discredit Christianity than all of you combined. How many of you have followed the writings of Hume, Sartre, Nietzsche, Kant? How many of you have read Flew (prior to his admission to theism), the late Gould, or Dawkins? How many of you have seen “The Faith Virus” or “Root of All Evil”? I have done all of this yet I am still an orthodox Christian. Why? The evidence is too overwhelming for me not to be.
Morality in laws -
All laws are based upon some moral premise. For a law to exist it must indicate there is a right way for something to be done and a wrong way, thus, the basis of morals. If you have a law against rape, then you are dictating that rape is wrong and thus immoral. There is no such thing as a “secular” law because “secular” seeks to defy any moral construct, thus all laws being moral constructs cannot legitimately be “secular.”
Homosexuality -
Not all people that are against homosexuality are the equivalent to Fred Phelps. This is an attempt to demonize your opponents in the hopes you discredit them without actually having to look at the information they wish to present. It is an anti-intellectual tactic, one that acknowledges you have no real stronge evidence for what you believe and thus must demonize the opposition.
I digress, and state that some are against homosexuality for strong moral premises. You can state, “Don’t bring your private views into the public debate” but this goes back to laws being a moral construct. If you wish this, then please do not try to punish me for burning down a church. Please do not punish a man if he rapes a woman. Feel free to bring up the argument that homosexuality doesn’t harm anyone (though there is a pro-homosexual movie coming out called “Descent” staring Chad Faust…from what I gathered talking to him it makes it difficult to realize which lover is the victim in the relationship) because this would nullify many other laws, establish a moral precept by using the word “harm,” and make you define why it is bad to harm others.
Now, feel free to jump all over this and use rhetoric, attack me, and not actually respond to what I had to say.
Bait you?
heheheheheheh
no.
(spraying pest repellant)
there. Be sure to stay away now so you wont get any of that DUNG on ya.
heheh.
And why doesnt the ayatollah himself weigh in here and set the record straight.
busy out at the brokeback park?
Must be all those hooks and swings he has to get set up……
JB? Is that really you?
did TM and the church folks, um, discipline you?
Are you posting under another nic so they wont “discipline” you anymore?
That kick under the table from TM worked?
Hmmm. WK’s post sure sounds a lot like the whining we usually get from gmc.
And arent JB the assistant butler county prosecutor’s REAL initials?
things that make ya go hmmmm……
“what I gathered talking to him it makes it difficult to realize which lover is the victim in the relationship”
OMG, SO GLAD STRAIGHT RELATIONSHIPS ARE NEVER LIKE THAT>
Please repeat slowly “it’s only a movie…it’s only a movie”
hee hee hee hee
and you want to criticize US for intellectual weakness? Because you want to insert a MOVIE to describe our relationships?
heheheheheheheeh
Looking for Mr. Goodbar must represent all straight relationships too.
Or what about the lutheran preacher in ks who killed his wife?
“it’s only a movie” oh wait, that one was REAL.
Glad I aint one of those either.
If I were guessing, I’d say that JB came to his senses and realized that the enemy’s camp is not the place to vent.
Why Kansas,
Simple logic is enough for me, thanks. That and a little history thrown in. But you’re free to have faith in whatever you choose. Just because I don’t choose to believe what you do does NOT make me anti.
Oops, my bad. gmc is not JB… I think….. heheheheh
Or maybe the “friendly camp” disciplined JB to gitmo……
you don’t need to act like a monkey throwing its dung at innocent passer bys
uh JB, or WK or lmnop……
There are NO INNOCENT PASSERBYS in terry, joe and fred’s churches. They enabled, encouraged, and financed these ayatollahs.
but we are amused by the finger pointing amongst yourselves. We see that christian love manifested as….
“cheese it! The cops! It’s every man for himself! Brother Terry? Who? Everyman for himself!
Must be some real doozys about to come out in the news now that the ayatollahs former financial supporters are running for the exits.
Evil is as evil does.
…and if you think that by distancing yourselves from terry, joe and fred you can remove the stink of bigotry from your churches….
heheheheh. Nice try. You’d have to change your NAME to remove the stink of taliban terry fox.
It is too bad that JB went silent. I think he had a story that he felt needed told. It is too bad that some like TM and Outlander feel the need for dirty little secrets to be kept. It only invites un informed speculation.
I’ll start!
This has truly got to be a pretty deep and maybe dark thing. Pastor quits with no notice. Core followers immediately set up new church. Funny business with finances on the part of the pastor……
Clearly despite the protestations of folks like Out and TM this is NOT going to just go away.
“Why Kansas” I predict WILL go away. I gotta strong suspicion we already know “why kansas” by another nic. Those 2 posts got a lot of padding but the sentiment inside is VERY familiar.
Why Kansas,Asside from your pretentiousness about being a non-Kansas resident, I commend the articulate presentation of your personal truth. I would guess that you are not homosexual. I would gather that you don’t gather with homosexuals and I am assuming you are likening homosexuality with rape and other nonconsensual crimes. It is hard to have a debate when one side likens to other as a criminal. Consenting adult sex is not rape, it is not anything but sex between consenting adults. I would like to point out that in none of your research did you mention meeting one-on-one with a homosexual to learn from them, or reaching out to learn about homosexuality by interviewing homosexuals, etc.I doubt homosexuals were responsible for the anti-sodomy laws a years past. I bet you would have liked to have been. I would like you to explain why there were anti-sodomy laws for homosexuals only. I think it is safe to say that heterosexuals enjoy the same sexual acts as homosexuals. Speaking for myself, as a bisexual, I have enjoyed my relationships.Another question, have you honestly visited with a mental health counselor about what makes a homosexual a homosexual?Another question, how is it possible that when millions of homosexuals will honestly admit that they believe they were born gay that people like you can doubt them and choose not to believe them? You wouldn’t doubt a man who said he was born with green eyes, would you?How is it possible that in the last 15 years when it has been proven that the male homosexual hypothalimus is smaller than their heterosexual counterparts that you and millions of others just like you will accuse the scientific communiting of being pro-gay, of there being a homosexual conspiracy, of homosexuals luring children into the practice?What a horrible thing to say about another human being, despicable. I have heard Brother Terry suggest all of the above.I appreciate all of your exposure to philosophers, etc. but you really did not detail how you have researched homosexuality other than to follow the written word of the bible. And how do you as an orthodox explain how many of the other writings in the bible are now overlooked in the modern age.As for secular laws: I can think of many that do not apply to morality – urinating outdoors, drunken behavior, speeding, skinny dipping, public nudity, harboring farm animals in city limits, not wearing a seatbelt, etc.I can think of immoral laws that were implemented by so-called orthodox Christians: lynchings, white-only restuarants, anti-sodomy laws, Sundown laws, no mixed race weddings, no women voters, and gays in the military.As you probably have painfully had to accept, all of these laws have been overturned by modern rational human beings. Fifty-six gay American soldiers working as Iraqi translators have been discharged for being gay. Many were “asked” by the military. So, wait a couple of years and the gay/military issue will pass by too.As you stir about in a great white frenzy the world is changing and the only place where you will be truly happy will most likely be heaven. By the way, say hello to Truman Capote and Tennesse Williams for me if you get there first. We are all going to heaven.
Why respond to Why?We’ve had finger waggers here before, several in fact.
Newest finger wagger:This is kind of like a TV,if you don’t like what’s on you change the channel.
“Why should I jump into a sandbox that has been shat upon by people…”
How Shakespearian, and a definite sign of a Liberal Arts education — the word “shat”…
Today, I shit,Yesterday, I shat,Tomorrow I shall, shit…
Thanks for the laugh…
Immanuel is a Southern Baptist church. No one there is saying that Terry Fox did not preach the truth, just that the manner in which he did it turned some off. So why should they apologize?
Outlander,maybe it was a turn-off when Fox said he was responsible for the capture of BTK, or maybe it was a turn-off when Fox spoke rabidly about homosexuals molesting children and luring children into that lifestyle. I don’t think he was preaching truth. I think he is nuts. How many folks in the congregation probably know someone who is gay, or have a gay relative, or even a gay child. Does Pastor Scary Fox really speak the truth when he makes these insinuations? The proponderence of child molestation occurs with adult married males, AND priests!! Oh, blaspemy!So, not only did some of the congregation dislike how Scary Fox preached, they also didn’t believe him. Outlander – can you please tell me the last time God intervened to stop murder, wars, disease, typhoons, etc. Judging from the news it seems God exists in our minds more than he really exists. Spirituality is the key my friend. Fox is a nutbasket and the more he plays in public the more nuts he will gather.Please don’t be a nut.
Will someone please admit on this blog that they have been convinced by the other sides arguments? It doesn’t matter which side.
This is what I mean. Of all comments in response to what I said, only one actually took a half-hearted effort at replying. Most consisted of attributing me to someone else, that I’m somehow another user in disguise (which I was implying other users who were pro-Fox in this as well) or something along that level. Someone even attributed my entire argument to a movie I mentioned. It should be clarified I was merely showing that certain film industries realize the higher potential for abuse in homosexual relationships. This movie, as I stated, stars Chad Faust and I spoke with him about this movie. The purpose it to provide that there is a difference in homosexual relationships vs. hetero relationships. It was a side comment, so to jump on that is telling of the lack of capacity to really argue against the point. It is arguing the footnote rather than the book.
Kevin -
I think you take it a bit far to say I don’t gather with homosexuals. Just because I disagree doesn’t mean I cannot be civil. I don’t agree with alcoholics, but I still gather around them.
I never likened homosexuality to a criminal act, that is a non-sequitor based upon what I wrote. What I was stating is that homosexuality is immoral and thus should be debated as a law. If we are to leave “private morality” out of the public spectrum of debate, then acts which are deemed “destructive” should not be debated either. It is a form of moral relativism that ultimately has no breaking system of moral digression; if one belief is private, why can’t all beliefs be private, thus nullifying all laws?
As for questioning my research, it is a comment on a blog, not a comprehensive academic biography. You are attempting to jump to conclusions in order to show that I really don’t know what I’m talking about. I have read various studies on homosexuality, pro and con, but have also had homosexual friends. For goodness sake, at one point I worked in the fashion industry and was the only heterosexual man employeed. To say I have not had experience in this issue because it was not mentioned is absurd.
Mental health counselors often have a bias. We cannot look to them as any form of authority because there really is no scientific basis for what they are teaching. This leads into your argument on scientific evidence for homosexuality; it doesn’t prove homosexuality. It proves why some men act in a more effiminate way but it doesn’t prove homosexuality. Such as, if this causes homosexuality in men, what would cause it in females? It doesn’t explain bi-sexuality either. The thing is, this is a psychological debate and everyone is trying to declare “nature has won” when there is no evidence for this. The debate has always been “nature vs. nuture,” thus, this brings about the question of how can you state that nature has won and arbitrarily ended the debate? You step into a form of determinism in doing so and once you do that, you again lose all moral clarity.
You’re missing the point on laws. Urinating in public, at some level, deals with morality. At the point you say something is wrong, you have made a moral statement. There is no escaping this.
As for your attempt at discredit Christian morality, the problem with what you listed is that it wasn’t based on biblical morality. The Bible teaches we are all one race, thus lynching, racism, etc go against Biblical morality. I have no problem accepting many of these laws were overturned…not by “modern rational thinkers” but instead by Christians. Anti-slave laws, anti-lynching laws, anti-segregation laws were promoted by men such as William Wilberforce, Martin Luther King Jr, etc. All of whom were not only Christians, but based their morality and their stance against these laws on Christian values. Oops. :)
Not a chance kevin. People in kansas are not known for changing their minds, even when confronted with the facts.
We have a saying here for the bushbots that probably holds true for the terrybots or the biblebots as well.
“who you gonna believe? Me? Or those lyin’ eyes of yours?”
No one in kansas changes their minds, even when their “lyin’ eyes” tell them the truth.
But we are amused…..
certain film industries
Uh, like the LEFT BEHIND christian movie industries? The “Industries” are a reliable depiction of our relationships?
hehehe. He says it is a side comment and then repeats it and clarifies it. Tell me again how unimportant you think “certain movie industries”.
Certain movie industries think “looking for mr. goodbar” illustrates the truths about straight people.
hee hee hee. I dont give those “certain movie industries” any credence either.
do you?
heheheheheheh
First rule of holes, stop digging!
Cognitive coaching, that’s what prayer is. We human fly solo. Sure, we get married, have children, cry when we see the ocean, etc., but at the end of the day – we go solo.So, we cannot turn to another frail imperfect human for reassurance and guidance. We cannot expect others, who have their own problems, to understand our loneliness.We can however pray to a higher power. We of the judeo-christian upbringing pray to God. Thank goodness we did not decide God is a cow, or a tree, or a fire; some other cultures have. It seems so foreign to us to pray to what we term a false god.We prefer to pray to the sky above where we hope heaven exits.Prayer feels good because it brings hope. Even the storgest men and women, presidents, scientists, all pray to god. It is a cognitive reassurance that there is someone capable of hearing us. This is prayer. Some prayer are answered because prayer causes the mind to focus. When we focus we do better work. How many times have we prayed for a good grade on a test, or a friendship to work. Chances are that you studied for the test and you behaved well in making a friendship.But, when we are all alone – we need someone to listen to us; someone who will not judge us, just listen. It relieves us, it comforts us, it focuses our minds. It relieves stress to wish for goodwill. It feels good to wish for a good outcome. It feels good to let someone know that you are most likely going to fail.We need to pray just as we need eat.Prayer feeds the soul, food feeds the body.Is there really a god? No one really knows for sure. We like to believe there is because it feels good. Yet, how do we really explain all the unanswered prayers? Spin.
I clarified it in the hopes that you would hold some level of intellectual capacity to understand why the side comment was in there. Unfortunately, I judged incorrectly on your ability to process information.
“At the point you say something is wrong, you have made a moral statement. There is no escaping this.”
Speaking of laws based on morality…
If all the world hates a queer, the other person hated by all is… wait for it… A TAX CHEATER!
Yep. Ask connie morris.
Hillbillies out here are not great theologians or scientists, but they know when someone screws them by cheating the tax payers. Fraudulent travel vouchers will do the same.
Clayton Williams lost to Ann Richards because it was revealed he LEGALLY paid no taxes in 1986, I think it was. He followed the law, but voters dont like folks, rich or poor, who dont pay their taxes.
So…. do we know any other unnamed tax cheaters? Do we know someone who is being scrutinized by the IRS? Do we know someone who doesnt pay his local property taxes for over two years?
Do we?
All the world sees tax cheaters as, well, ALMOST as low as a homosexual.
heheheheheheheheheh
Wk, you dumbass (that outa piss him off….)
At the end of all your blustering, you still used a fictional movie as illustration for at least part of your arguement that gays are bad and our relationships are inferior.
Deal with it. Talk about intellectual dishonestly.
“This is not a pipe…”
You are the one who made that huge intellectual gaff of using fiction to try to shore up your arguement about reality.
deal with it.
Bookmarking this for future reference :)
So….
If there is no such thing as “bad” publicity…
And if it is true that some celebrities say “I dont care what you say about me, just spell my name correctly”….
Then….
Taliban terry fux must really be raking it in today!!!!!
This is on its way to being one of the most posted threads in history. The other two being:
toddly and his love affair with guns
and connie morris and her hatred of the flying spagetti monster
hee hee hee hee hee.
God, guns and gays! Works every time!
Why Kansas, my Esteemed Colleague from outside Kansas.A few questions:1) If you were faced with irrefutable scientific evidence that homosexuality is genetic – would this change your mind?2) You never addressed the comment about millions of homosexuals who say they were born gay. Do you believe these people to be liars? Members of a cult? Confused? Evil? Why do you doubt their truth?3) Is there nothing true about you?4) If the majority of human beings have prayed for no more war, and no more disease, why is it that God has not answered the prayer – over the last 2,000 years.5)What is the cure for homosexuality? Do you feel gay persons should deny their natural feelings?Given your obvious philosophical acumen, can you explain the above questions without an ambiguous answer? I am leaning toward sophistry rather than philosophy in your arguments.
YEE-HAW!!!
there, I said it.Did anyone notice that our finger wagger just can’t get enough!Wagger, you called us every thing but human in your first post.Whatya doin? Slummin with the people you despise?
..and nathan wants to talk about how anti-gay the middle east is?
HE will be so proud to know that the U.S. aligned itself with IRAN in an anti-gay vote in the United Nations.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364×1920433
I could have linked to the original article, but then nathan wouldnt have gone red faced and spewing about going to du.
heheheh
Kansas Farm Girl -
The point was showing that some pro-homosexual movie makers see a higher potential for psychological abuse in homosexual relationships as opposed to heterosexual relationships. I wasn’t pointing to the movie and going, “See, they act it out so it’s true!” I was saying that the star actor discussed this with me, and he did this as a man who has played various homosexual roles (you might know him as the struggling homosexual boyfriend from the movie “Saved!”)
Kevin -
“1) If you were faced with irrefutable scientific evidence that homosexuality is genetic – would this change your mind?”
No, not at all, because just because something is genetic doesn’t mean we should accept it. Again, this is a philosophy of determinism (whether soft or had determinism it doesn’t matter). Genes have been proven to alter how we look but not necessarily how we act. It seems that how we act is often dictated by how we are raised. Even actions that are considered genetic or proven to be genetic can still be overcome, thus I do not see why this would hamper my belief.
“2) You never addressed the comment about millions of homosexuals who say they were born gay. Do you believe these people to be liars? Members of a cult? Confused? Evil? Why do you doubt their truth?”
Mass belief in something does not dictate truth. There are over a billion Christians but this doesn’t make Christianity true. There might be millions of homosexuals claiming they were born this way, but that means nothing as there is no evidence for claims. It’s strong disillusion. Arguments from experience hardly ever provide a solidified ground for evidence.
“3) Is there nothing true about you? ”
What do you mean by this question?
“4) If the majority of human beings have prayed for no more war, and no more disease, why is it that God has not answered the prayer – over the last 2,000 years.”
Because God is not subject to human will. The thing is, all of these things are ultimately caused by our own sin. Part of being human is realizing what we have brought about.
“5)What is the cure for homosexuality? Do you feel gay persons should deny their natural feelings?”
That’s a loaded question by using the phrase “natural feelings.” It isn’t natural, that’s the entire debate. Likewise, nothing can be “cured,” it can only be contained, and that goes for all sin. The sin of Terry Fox is obviously arrogance and an attempt to get away with what he wants. He cannot be cured of this, it can only be contained. Likewise, a homosexual cannot be cured, but he can curtail these feelings and bring them under control.
Also, you never answered any of my objections:
1) If private beliefs should not be in the public realm, why should we have laws against rape, murder, etc?
2) How are some laws not based on morality in some fashion?
3) Where is the proof for homosexuality being an inherent trait within some humans?
Tracy,
Can you do anything to disprove what I said? The fact is, many in this thread on both sides have acted like children in discussing this. The next time someone accuses Kansans of being anti-intellectual, you only need to look to yourselves when attempting to place the blame.
Don’t confuse sarcastic with stupid, you twit.And there is nothing to disprove.I quit reading your crap right after I got to the condescending attitude. (first line)BTW, if you weren’t such a condescending finger wagger, I’d go to the mental olympics with ya’.Me and a few other of us hicks here in Kanass, wouldly gladly bring home the gold.I don’t know that you would even be in the running for the bronze if you’re simple minded enough to come in here and talk to us like retartded step children, and THEN, want us to read your shit and have some sort of civil discussion with your highness? HA.Good luck pal.
Thank you for proving my point Tracy.
You’re welcome Ms. Manners.
Anything else I can confirm for you superiorness??DEE DEE DEE
Thank you for your eagerness, but you’ve done enough to prove that generally the people on here would rather insult one another than actually engage in a discussion. Why? Because it’s easier to act big and tough then backing it up. “I could run circles around you…but instead I’m going to say you’re stupid.” If someone really does have the intellectual capacity to debate a subject, they rarely have to restort to such tactics.
Again, no further assistance is needed, you have done a wonderful job of proving my point. Thank you again.
Why Kansas (WHYYYYYY) ha ha,Okay, in response to your questions.1)Whenever someone violates another it is generally against the law. Rape, murder, incest, child molestation are against the law because there are not two consenting parties.Consenting homosexuals are not violating anything.You are arguing a double edged sword. You argue that private beliefs are protected. I agree, private beliefs are. If I believe child rape is fun but I never act on those feelings then I am breaking no laws. When a child is raped – a person is violated – this breaks a law. The law being harm and violence perpetrated on an unwilling person. This really is not a morality question, it is a secular law. My rights were violeated by an immoral person. But, one can be immoral in mind only. There is no law against that.Just like murder, incest, woman beating, etc., these are laws to protect all citizens whether they are moral or immoral. Praise God we have a secular society.I privately believe it would be okay to have public executions of child molesters. Well, I guess it is not private anymore. I publicaly believe Rev. Scary Fox is a latent homosexual, which is okay, except he propels his self hatred onto the public.2)I cannot really argue this point. I know you will find a way to morally bind them all together.3)Proof! I cannot immediately reference a website, however your denial of scientific evidence makes my desire to find the information a futile process.Comments:You never answered whether you thought that one million homosexuals were liars, members of a cult, confused, evil?
A new question: If you believe homosexuality is a nurture issue why haven’t you and Terry Fox found a practical way to teach parents how to raise children not to be gay? It seems that would be a simple answer. But it is more difficult, isn’t it, given that homosexuals have been around since the beginnning of man. One would think you and your type would have found the best solution for preventing gay children.On another note, I see how Christians rail against abortion yet they never put their money where their mouths are and produce a viable option so mothers will carry the child and the CHURCH will take over raising the child.
If genetically someone is gay then they should not be accepted? What do you propose we do with children born without limbs? Do we not accept them? Or should be base our acceptance on a moving scale of what fits our own personal moral beliefs. Hitler did not accept homosexuals and neither do you. I think it is safe to say you are very much like Hitler. What if the limbless child is gay? WHY KANSAS – I think you perpetrate evil in the name of christianity. Human beings are not now nor have they ever conformed to oppresive religious beliefs. When it does happen things get ugly i.e. middle east. I feel sorry that you are in prison and are punishing the rest of the world for your mistakes.You really must be one messed up human being. Given your past career in fashion and your obsession with Chad the fag, I am guessing you are repressing your gay thoughts and have fooled yourself into believing it really works.
I won’t read your “subject”because of your “attitude”.You are far superior and you know it.We are just sarcastic idiots not worth your time.The epitome of the Kansas you despise.Go back to Mensa and continue with your pupils. Bye.
WK likes to argue with himself. Let him continue. He’ll eventually post a rebuttal to his own arguments. He’s already started doing that.
Why Kansas,What is your truth? Are any of your feelings truth? When you are attracted to someone is that not truth? When you love someone, is that a true feeling?
I wouldn’t argue that Fox is a latent homosexual since his extra-marital affair was with another female.
Kevin, it looks like you too have turned to personal attacks when you realize you cannot respond. Why can’t you just say “I don’t know” instead of trying to tear the other person down?
Dealing with my first question -
The problem is you are still begging the question. You are assuming that you can actually violate another human being. This is a privately held belief based upon a moral construct that you have yet to support.
I’m only using your criteria to weigh your own moral standards.
Dealing with the second question -
At least you’re honest that you can’t answer it.
Dealing with my third question -
And now the problem of rhetoric. Saying “it’s science” and expecting everyone to believe it without actually providing evidence might work for Ron Burgundy, but it isn’t going to fly here. As I have said, I have read articles for and against and there is not a single one that provides proof that it is a genetic cause. There is no “science” involved, and the only scientific idea you brought forth I responded to. I didn’t ignore it, I debunked it.
“You never answered whether you thought that one million homosexuals were liars, members of a cult, confused, evil?”
Yes I did, go look again.
“If you believe homosexuality is a nurture issue why haven’t you and Terry Fox found a practical way to teach parents how to raise children not to be gay? It seems that would be a simple answer. But it is more difficult, isn’t it, given that homosexuals have been around since the beginnning of man. One would think you and your type would have found the best solution for preventing gay children.On another note, I see how Christians rail against abortion yet they never put their money where their mouths are and produce a viable option so mothers will carry the child and the CHURCH will take over raising the child.”
First, Terry speaks out of hatred, anyone can tell that, thus there is no motivation to find a way to raise children to avoid this. I don’t and have subsequently been working to help children. For instance, the idea that if you are best friends with a guy and very close, you must be gay. To ignore social stereotypes about homosexuality. To understand why you might be attracted to men. To show a healthy male/female relationship. All of this things (and more) can help in curbing certain tendencies towards homosexuality.
As for pregnancy, I have long been an advocate for churches setting up clinics to help mothers raise their children or adopt them rather than abort. Again, you’re making an argument from ignorance…if you’re going to try to attack me or at least make me look inconsistent, it would be best to know what I have done. Instad, you are making assumptions.
“If genetically someone is gay then they should not be accepted?”
Now you’re twising my words. What I stated was that we shouldn’t accept “it.” The “it” I was refering to was the idea that because someone is genetically homosexual, it doesn’t mean we should accept there is nothing we can do about this. Again, it goes to the idea of hard determinism vs. libertarian free will.
“You really must be one messed up human being. Given your past career in fashion and your obsession with Chad the fag, I am guessing you are repressing your gay thoughts and have fooled yourself into believing it really works.”
Is this really necessary? Especially to call someone a “fag” after trying to defend homosexuals. This might make you feel better, but it does nothing to help your case; it only makes you appear to respond out of emotion and not intellect. If this is the case, it only provides further proof that your beliefs are emotional base and have no place in the rational world.
Kevin -
No, feelings do not compose truth. We can have feelings about truth, but at the end of the day, truth is truth. Thus, if I have feelings toward someone this does not necessitate that the truth is this is a good thing. The truth of the situation is my infatuation could ultimately be a horrible thing. Feelings are subjective whereas truth is absolute.
Why Kansas,You lecture me about lumping you in with Fox and Christianity…well, I really have no choice. I refuse to accept your “it.” The ‘it’ being your proclaimed Christianity and the likeness your rhetoric has to all the other Christians. So, as a bisexual, if you think there is something immoral about me based on my sexuality, then I must admit I think there is something wrong with you because of your Christianity. In this case, since you chose to be a Christian, you can change.
Why Kansas,Please do not procreate.
Kevin -
You have drawn another non-sequitor. There are different Christian views, thus because I am a Christian does not mean I ascribe to any certain view. However, bi-sexuality is pretty cut and dry. You like both sexes and desire both. It is then easy to “lump” you into a certain category of immoral choices. Which that is what it is, an immoral choice. Does this make me better than you? Of course not, we are all sinners and all choose to sin, but that’s the opperative word; choose. Just as I make no excuse for you choice, I make none for my own choices in life as well. I realizes that when I do something, it is a choice and I will be held accountable for it as well. You have likewise chosen to be bi-sexual and can also therefore change.
Only that which you know for yourself and experience consciously within yourself is of importance and constitutes the truth for you. That which may be told you by others, even by me, serves no vital purpose, except to enhance or corroborate an already known truth, or to create illusions or responsibility until it is either rejected or experienced by you in your own consciousness.Do you understand what I mean?
Again, Kevin, what is the use in attacking me personally? How does this help your cause in any manner? What do you gain out of it? You realize you are acting like Terry Fox when you attack the person instead of discussing the idea, correct?
Tracy, the problem with this is that it is self-defeating. You claim that only that which I experience is truth for me…but you are using a universal construct in order to make this claim therefore violating the claim. Further, one thing Kant was correct on (though he applied this to his epistimology and not necessarily to his deontology) is that we can know things in an a priori fashion as opposed to an a posteri fashion. Truth happens to be one of these.
If we follow the implications of what you are stating then we end up being able to justify murder because, in my experience, it is justifiable. Or, in a less extreme example, we should no longer teach math or science which deal in areas of the absolute. 2+2=4 is an absolute construct and something that guides how the universe opperates, yet under your philosophy is it arbitrary because it derives from outside of the personal experience. I do not have to experience 2+2=4 in order for it to be true; it stands on truth without anyone experiencing it. Unfortunately, it doesn’t apply within your philosophy, so shall we throw it out?
Damn Tracy, I had to read that twice. I did not get any hint of arrogance as I do when I read Why Kansas’s rhetoric.
Good going. Who the hell has the book of truth?I am astonished that Why Kansas is so bible bound, given that it was written boy mortal man. Why Kansas does the word of the bible seem absolute but scientific evidence seem so weak to you?I will admit I am repressing some feelings of nurture from long ago: I have a strong desire to call you an S.O.B., but I won’t.SO the hypothalimus thing only explains effeminate begaviors? So, do you accept effeminate behavior from men?
So you’re arguing about what consenting adults do with their hoo-ha’s and po-po’s?That’s it?And in the same breath wanting to wax poetic about the meaning of truth?Intellectual my ass.Puh-leeeze!
“Why Kansas does the word of the bible seem absolute but scientific evidence seem so weak to you?”
Absolutely. One has been proven through the test of time, even against biases in interpretation, whereas the other is subject to the bias of the researcher.
“So, do you accept effeminate behavior from men?”
Certainly, why wouldn’t I?
Kevin, don’t be too impressed by what Tracy wrote. It’s quoted from Discipleship in the New Age, Vol. I, p. 91.
Of course, no citation was offered.
Killing another person may be the truth for the perpetrator. HOWEVER, and I keep repeating this – in our American society it is against the law to harm another person. Dr. Kevorkian was just way before his time. Agreed upon killing through a rational means, arbitrated by an outside judge, I believe should be acceptable.Why Kansas – you possess a lot of knowledge but little intellect. Not a slam, just an observation.If you could just step down from on-high and loose the arrogance, maybe you would garner more respect.
I concede that it is usually a losing battle to try to provide scientific evidence to a fundamentalist/dominionist, but here goes anyway. The following is a meta-analysis that looks at the genetic transmission of homosexual orientation:
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/285/5429/803a
Obviously, when one is talking about behavioral or complex traits, the expression is usually due to a combination of genetic and environmental influences.
Some more meta-analytic reviews on this question:
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/search?session_query_ref=rbs.queryref_1155756903420&RESOURCETYPE=%5BLjava.lang.String%3B%40cfe049&COLLECTIONS=%5BLjava.lang.String%3B%4018e18a3&ABSTRACTFIELD=%5BLjava.lang.String%3B%401f38fc6&JC=%5BLjava.lang.String%3B%401642bd6&FULLTEXTFIELD=%5BLjava.lang.String%3B%40179f36b&WEIGHT_ABSTRACT=300&TITLEFIELD=%5BLjava.lang.String%3B%4015bfdbd&WEIGHT_FULLTEXT=100&FULLTEXT=%28homosexuality%2C+AND+genetics%2C+AND+meta-analysis%29&WEIGHT_TITLE=600
Meta-analyses are combinations of data across studies — which are usually accepted by the scientific community as stronger support for the findings.
Why Kansas – I believe you are sick in the head. Do you go around your community irrationally rationalizing everything? Tell us more about your personal life? I am so curious? Are you BTK? Do they let you on the computer at El Dorado?
“Killing another person may be the truth for the perpetrator. HOWEVER, and I keep repeating this – in our American society it is against the law to harm another person. Dr. Kevorkian was just way before his time. Agreed upon killing through a rational means, arbitrated by an outside judge, I believe should be acceptable.”
This still doesn’t prove anyting. It places value without justification for that value. Why should all truths be equal? What about when these truths come into conflict (I enjoy life, you don’t enjoy me living, I want to live, you want to kill me….what now?). Why is it wrong to violate another person’s truth? Why is it wrong to do any of that?
“Why Kansas – you possess a lot of knowledge but little intellect. Not a slam, just an observation.If you could just step down from on-high and loose the arrogance, maybe you would garner more respect.”
I fail to see how I have been arrogant. I did state that I have read more in the field of philosophy than any of you, but that’s probably a statement of fact, not arrogance. Likewise, it was done to combat the idea you presented that Christians are somehow these kool-aid drinkers that only read the Bible and listen to the preacher. I was merely showing that is not the case.
Likewise…of everyone here, the only thing I have said is that all of you perpetuate the stereotype against Kansans, and it is true. When all you have done is attacked people on this thread, what else do you call that? I, on the other hand, have been attacked non-stop…tell me, which takes the greater ammount of arrogance?
Does anyone know, has this thread broken the WEBlog record for the most posts?
Why Kansas, what have you gained by your choice to be an orthodox Christian? There must be something that drew you to this?Most born agains fucked up so much that they had no other choice than to “give it all to Jesus” so they could look themselves in the mirror again.
Steve -
I find it funny that your first link says there are zero articles. :)
To the second article, this study has been highly ridiculed because it excludes external factors. Such as how much contact did these children have with the homosexual uncles/aunts? What about homosexuals who have no homosexual relatives? Did the gene just mutate on its own? If it is a genetic trait, then where is the gene? Why can some homosexual men engage in the lifestyle but then give it up one day with no desire to return? What is the explanation for bi-sexual men? What about homosexual females, the study was done solely on men and ignored the lesbian population?
The questions go on…basically it was an observation that excluded factors that should have been included. This is what Rice was criticizing.
Kevin -
Again, which is more arrogant? Presenting what you believe to be true using some form of rationalization, or attacking a person in order to make yourself feel better?
This one is about you why.No citation needed.
The glamour of self-assurance or of what might be called the astral principles of the disciple. This is the belief, in plain language, that the disciple regards that his point of view is entirely right. This again feeds pride and tends to make the disciple believe himself to be an authority and infallible.
It’s plainly more arrogant to blog into a crowd of people you don’t know and start telling them how fucked up they are.
Tracy, instead of acting like a parrot, why not actually respond to what I said? The problem is the “glamor of illusion” that you plagarized (which is illegal btw) still rests upon what you previously plagarized and I responded to.
LIkewise, I do not believe I am infallible and some ideas and beliefs are subjective. However, my confidence rests in my belief and the evidnece for that belief, not in who I am.
Steven,
I think that it has surpassed the drivel record for this Blog!
Tracy, of everyone here, who has been making the arguments and who has been making the attacks. Truth be told, most responses to me have been nothing more than attempts at a “flame war” which I won’t fall into.
Arrogance is the belief or action of trying to make YOURSELF superior. As it is, my confidence rests in the truths of Christianity, not in myself, which nullifies any idea of arrogance. Attacking someone, however, is an attempt to belittle them in order to uplift yourself, which is arrogance.
Do you not find it strange no one has really attempted to argue against what I’ve said?
Please don’t feed the trolls.
Thank you.
Why Kansas,You are correct. I do feel better. I think you are a postering piece of shit who suffered sexual exploitation as a child. I think you have had gay intercourse. I think you are ashamed of your existence. I think your genetic disposition is that of a rat. I believe you secretly masturbate in your car. I know you masturbate. It helps you build up the shame. I would like to kick your ass. I think you have a big fat hairy belly with many skins sores. I believe you have handled feces of a friend. I believe you watch other men piss at truck stops. You are as much an intellectual as a vulture is a saint. I would like to beat your silly ass upside the head and knock some reality into you. Kant, Hume, Bertrand R., would kick you out of the club, you baboon ass.When your life is nearing its end I hope a 20-something hot gay guy fucks his boyfriend over your weak fat body and let’s go of his ‘genetic solution’ over your beady eyed fat pizza face.Yep, you win. I am sick of you and today I am a sore loser. But, that’s just today, it’s not the absolute truth.Fuck you, asshole. Get giddy and curl your hairy toes on your size 7 feet.
Another fear which induces mankind to regard death as a calamity, is one which theological religion has inculcated, particularly the Protestant fundamentalists, and the Roman Catholic Church – the fear of hell, the imposition of penalties, usually out of all proportion to the errors of a life-time, and the terrors imposed by an angry God.To these man is told he will have to submit, and from them there is no escape, except through the vicarious atonement.There is, as you well know, NO angry God, NO HELL, and NO vicarious atonement.There is only a great principle of love animating the entire universe; there is the Presence of the Christ, indicating to humanity the fact of the soul and that we are saved by the livingness of that soul, and the only hell is the earth itself, where we learn to work out our own salvation, actuated by the principle of love and light, and incited thereto by the example of the Christ, and the inner urge of our own souls. This teaching anent hell is a remainder of the sadistic turn which was given to the thinking of the Christian Church in the Middle Ages, and to the erroneous teaching to be found in the Old Testament anent Jehovah, the tribal God of the Jews.Jehovah is not God, the Eternal Heart of Love Whom Christ revealed.As these erroneous ideas die out, the concept of hell will fade from man’s recollection, and its place will be taken by an understanding of the law which makes each man work out his own salvation upon the physical plane, which leads him to right the wrongs which he may have perpetrated in his lives on Earth, and which enables him eventually to “clean his own slate”.
RIGHT ON KEVIN.Finally you see the futility of attempting to reason with some condescending butt smear!
Let it out man, let it out.Praise the lord, you’ve seen the light.
Kevin -
Well at least you’re open about how you feel about me. However, a sign that someone is not confident in his own beliefs or at least does not know how to defend them is the anger presented in the debate. This doesn’t mean his beliefs are not true, it simply means he doesn’t know how to defend them.
You might want to look into it, because in the end, your beliefs could not be true. Either way, showing such anger over opposition to what you believe is just unecessary.
Tracy -
I would love to respond, but why respond to plagarized material? It would be hitting a brick wall; no one is going to respond back.
“Deep Thoughts” by Jack Handy.
Also, Tracy, as a sidenote, you said you could outdebate me. If this is the case, why are you having to result to plagarizing items from the internet? Doesn’t this merely prove the point you were “huffing and puffing” without posing any real threat?
I know none of you can see it, but to a caual observer it would look quite weird that the one who provided a rational defense, remained calm, and answered all points brought against him even though being attacked and accused would be the “irrational” one in the debate.
Hallelujah, I am feel like a new man. I like being from Kansas. I like me. Tracy, I liked you too.
why not
“A learned blockhead is a greater blockhead than an ignorant one.”
Benjamin Franklin
It is time to stop ya cold why.
Gay marriage is about the love between two people. If you have discovered the formula to define what is and is not love I invite you to share it.
I hope my faithful friends will forgive me this next.
Why not? You are prepared to say that this or that is not acceptable to god. Well see that leaves you with a little problem. You cannot prove the existence of god anymore than you can define love. Spin it anyway you like but unless and until you prove the existence of god (or god speaks on the matter) your take on this issue is simply “I say He said” and your source is non-existent.
Abort the troll!!!
J RGod bless you. Well, Donald Trump bless you. I know he exists and one cannot do wrong with a blessing from the Donald.
JR -
First, thank you for not attacking me outright as others have.
Second, if there is no formula for love, then incest and pedophilia are not subject to being removed from the “love” spectrum. Love does have a rational basis (though existentialist philosophy would disagree) and if it didn’t then there would be no way to know if you are in love.
As for proving God…this is a message board. I can give you criteria which is found in science, philosophy, logic, deductive reasoning, and mathmatics, however I cannot go into an extensive explanation. I would, however, highly encourage the “Trilogy” by Francis Schaeffer which gives philosophical implications for God’s existence. If you are truly interested in the subject matter, my proof is within those three books, which obviously I cannot post here or even begin to go into detail.
Kevin, stick around man.You just made a friend.You also learned the first lesson of sticking around here.Some people just ain’t worth it man.You can see this dickhead’s true nature from the start.Now I’m off to plagarize some more.(I’m not a writer)
I can win an argument on any topic, against any opponent. People know this, and steer clear of me at parties.Often, as a sign of their great respect, they don’t even invite me.
(plagarized of course)
why not
I have a gay friend. I do not appreciate your equating her love with pedophilia and I will not follow you down that road.
Again, apologies to my friends in faith.
“Philisophical implications of Gods existence” is NOT proof why not.
In the end, your God is no more real or quantifiable than homosexual love or any love for that matter. I know that hurts. But it is true. I know of NO ONE who would deny anyone their faith. Why is it that some in that faith feel compelled to deny others their love? Because “god” told them to? What god?
Ha ha. Tracy – The Idiot-savant cannot be debated. He is nuts.I am going to spend time with my 2yr old daughter now. Yes, she is my only lingering quest to believe God exists.Why Kansas – bisexuality has served me well, much better than repressed sexuality has served you.
JR -
The fact is that if you define love in such an open fashion, it equates ALL people to pedophilia and incest…not just homosexuals.
As for proving God, philosophical proof, which relies on logic and deductive reasoning, is evidence for God. Likewise, you ignored the scientific argument as well. God can be “proven” in the sense that verifiable evidence, or strong evidence, can be presented. I offered you the three books in order for you to verify this. If you go to Borders they have the trilogy for sale.
Why Kansas -Maybe pedophilia is a sort of love -BUT – it violates another human being. This is why we have a law against it. Duh.Same with bestiality, incest, etc.Consenting sex between two homosexuals in love or not in love is NOT a violation.What part are you unable to accept -You are a pest.
Again, validate this violation you keep speaking of. Why is it wrong to violate someone? Why is consenting always a good thing? What if a 12 year old boy consents to having sex with a 40 year old man?
What are the standards?
Nice try.
I didn’t define or undefine any love why not. I will not follow you further down that road beyond what has been stated above. Homosexual love between consenting adults is a victimless “crime”.
“Likewise you ignore the scientific arguement as well”
Um and you presented it….where?
Don’t tell me to go read a book. A book is just the words of some person printed on a page. Again, I say he said.I say God does not exist. I cannot prove that.
YOU say God does exist. YOU cannot prove that.
But YOU go ON to say “God says……..”If you cannot prove your messenger, the message has no basis.
The problem is you are assuming. You say books are just words on a page. Wrong. They contain logic and evidence within them as well. however, you are using this as an excuse not to enlighten yourself to the evidence, which is your choice, but a choice that you shall be held accountable for at some point.
In addition, it’s the ultimate “end all.” You declare it cannot be done and therefore reject any evidence given to you. I offered for you to read a book that contains evidence; you reject it because you are adament that God cannot be proven. It’s circular reasoning.
BE careful why not.
If I strip away the “validity” of your predjudice, I leave you as nothing more than a bigot. Or at the very least, a person who would make his personal “ick” the law of the land.
I’m a show me kinda guy why.
Philosophy is the stuff that goes on between the ears. As so much is attributed to God, I require a bit more. Flaming “thou shalt nots” written across the sky is more my standard.
My lack of faith hurts no one “save me”!
Your use of faith does hurt others. Persecution of one minority invites it for others. Eventually you get to a place where almost no one can meet the standard of what is acceptable to God.
Terry Fox is kinda proof of that.
Show me that 2 consenting adults being married is harmful to anything but your own sensibilities.
Why Kansas,
“I find it funny that your first link says there are zero articles. :)”
So, you have to lie to refute the data there. Pathetic. It’s okay with me if you choose to be a brain-dead fundie, but don’t lie about what is contained in a link of mine, okay?
Folks, check it out for yourself.
There is not perfect study, multiple studies build upon one another. That is the nature of science.
This is my last wasted post for you, Mr. Why Kansas.
Boy, that Why Kansas has the same wide-eyed petulant tone that Nathan has.
Remember, Nathan claims he never changes nics.
Okay . . .
Boy, that Why Kansas has the same wide-eyed petulant tone that Nathan has.
Remember, Nathan claims he never changes nics.
Okay . . .
“some pro-homosexual movie makers see a higher potential for psychological abuse in homosexual relationships as opposed to heterosexual relationship”
This is how mr. intellectual giant starts his arguement? “some pro-homosexual movie makers” WTF?
Ya. Start your case by quoting some actor in a gay porn movie and then cite them for credibility about the gay lifestyle.
Heheh. And WE are the morons?
I know way more successful ex christians than I do people who were successfully turned straight.
Must just be easier to recover from christianity overdose.
Sounds more like cruex than nathan.
And it is cruex that always says “carpet muncher” or “rug muncher” like the newest troll.
Poor why kansas. Maybe only gmc has the intellectual “weight” (read lead) to talk with why kansas.
I agree Tracy, send him back to the genius pool. we are so clearly outgunned.
heheheheh
He doesnt even realize that his postings dont warrant a serious effort. Mere flames as he points out.
Another wit and humor impaired rightie. Gee, WHAT a surprise.
…or … you dont suppose…
wk was sent here to KILL this thread….
..do ya?
’cause that is what he is successful at here.
Dont let him do it.
TALIBAN TERRY DOESNT PAY HIS TAXES
HIS CHURCH HAS SOMETHING TO HIDE
THE CRITIC FROM YESTERDAY IS MISSING
there.
OMG, wk wants to talk about enlightenment?
“you are using this as an excuse not to enlighten yourself”
must be a republican. Whatever weakeness YOU have (draft dodger, tax dodger, liar, etc) you must try to pin it on your opponent.
Up is down and black is white. WK wants to accuse someone else of refusing enlightenment?
heheh. the very definition of a cave person.
kfg: I just checked the Sedgwick County website. There is no listing under delinquent taxes for Terry Fox. Kind of embarrassing huh?
Whoops, my bad. I see it. Do you know if it is being contested? The website contains a caution that recently paid and contested entries may still appear.
I was just waiting for someone to call my hand on fox and his back taxes.
Instructions:
-Go tohttp://sedgwickcounty.org/Treasurer/DelinquentTax/Index.html-Type in “FOX, TERRY”-Select “Both Personal and Real Property”-Click “Search”-At the next page, scroll to the very end, click “Continue”-Wait a minute or so for the results-Laugh your ass off
No I dont know about it being contested. Since 2004?
any refutation better include links and documents, not “rumors” that he is being persecuted.
Why Kansas,Epistemologically speaking there is no such thing as “absolute truth” truth is always relative as well as subjective.
P.S.Go back and do another 4 years of Kantian metaphysics before I embarass you and prove what a poser intellectual you are.
Will- Right, like Kant’s Categorical Imperative!
Further, one thing Kant was correct on (though he applied this to his epistimology and not necessarily to his deontology) is that we can know things in an a priori fashion as opposed to an a posteri fashion. Truth happens to be one of these.
To the Kantian Disciple,Kant also postulates that the Supreme Being exists (i.e. God) without offering any rational proof. It is the coup de grace of his metaphysical philosophy. Bring me any other modern philosopher and I will explain his teachings to you without your obvious misinterpretations. If you wish to debate me on Kantian metaphysics I have at my disposal both his Critiques concerning human reason as well as his Critique of Judgment. I even have A Philosophy of Metaphysics to boot collecting dust in my library.
What say you?They are all difficult reads, not many in our profession favor Kantian metaphysics anymore since he died before finishing it and the fact that it has been severely disproven by modern day philosophers didn’t help to well for it either.
Why Kansas -Maybe pedophilia is a sort of love -BUT – it violates another human being. This is why we have a law against it. Duh.Same with bestiality, incest, etc.Consenting sex between two homosexuals in love or not in love is NOT a violation.What part are you unable to accept -You are a pest.
To Kevin, Tracy and KS farm girl……
I have stayed off for the very reasons that Why Kanss explained. I have yet to see any of you tactfully and eloquently express your points of view and, neither have you debunked anything that Why Kansas has said. You have fallen into the same old trap of attacking the messenger (which is what I asked you not to do) because your arguments do not meet the means test of passing. Like Why Kansas, I accept that we may agree to disagree and that you may point out logic that I can neither agree with or refute, but merely through convictions and experience or my own rational, cannot accept. My choice and I may be wrong, but that does not mean that I attack you personally. It simply means that we disagree and life goes on.
Thus far, all I have seen from all of you is dribble and rude remarks, foul language and such. And which ever one of you that said you win every argument with everyone, that is probably why you don’t get invited to parties…. I have yet to see you win a debate with Why kansas over any of the logic and fact expressed and; how open of you to confess your lack of social skills in public.
Kevin…. Congratulations on your daughter, as a father of two, I understand the joy you must have in being blessed to have a child in the home. I am just curious about one thing, as a bi-sexual (not slamming you by any means, your choice) how do you explain to her at age ten why you can’t make up your mind about who or what you want to be sexually? Just wanted to know.
As for your comments and your uncalled for and immature rant at Why Kansas, especailly about his ( how do you know Why kansas is a male) sexual orientation and masturbation, etc, etc, etc…….this I can speak of regrading Why kansas…..
Why Kansas reads about four books a week, both from the same veiw point held by Why kanas and those opposed to those view points.This is done so as to fully understand the thought behind the opposing viewpoint.
Why Kansas is neither lesbian or homosexual and is strictly hetorosexaul
Why Kansas is a very normal person and is not a minsa as someone suggested
Why kansas had a good upbringing in the home was not abused and was always very intelligent and mature
Why kansas is not a bible thumper as was posted and is exceptionally well versed in history, philosophy, religion, literature and self taught, for the most part. Why kansas understands the bible better than most because of the studies in Greek and Hebrew therefore the knowledge comes from the original language, culture, history and intent of that day.
I would dare say that none of you are as learned as Why kansas and it appears to me that none of you have even attempted to read the opposing side to your convictions, if that is what you call them. Read the Case For Christ, The Case For Creation, etc. An no Kevin, I do read and I do like to hear good sermons and such, but at the end of the day, I really do make up my own mind on what I beleive to be fact and what I beleive to be fiction.
Finally, Why kansas has two parents, both a mom and dad who are still together, (which is very astonishing in this day and age)and, who are very proud of Why kansas and pleased over the great mind they were blessed with by God. We are equally pleased that Why Kansas can debate, argue and discuss the point of view and convictions they have, without name calling or attacking.
How do I know all of this??? We are blessed, thrilled and honored to be the parents of Why Kansas. Yes, this is a ftaher’s pride speaking. and Kevin, as one parent to another, please do not attack our child to me as i would never attack your daughter to you…. some things are very sacred and off limits would you agree?
AWhy kansas in my opinion, has just schooled all of you into seeing what happens when your logic or facts as you seem them are held up to historical and biblical truth…. your arguments were destroyed and you were reduced to attacking the messenger and not the message.n
M
Please, please, I am leaving after thsi post so hold back your comments, your attacks and such, they will not be seen.
Good! Bbye!!
As it is, my confidence rests in the truths of Christianity, not in myself, which nullifies any idea of arrogance.
To Plato.. er… Kant… er Philosopher King,Perhaps you haven’t realized that since you are a self-professed Christian, what you say to be the “truths” of Christianity are now your “truths” since you have adopted them to your own belief system. So yes, you are an arrogant prick. I see right through you by what you have just wrote: “MY CONFIDENCE RESTS IN THE TRUTHS OF CHRISTIANITY…” Bingo! You’ve just admitted to the fact that your idea of truth is subjective and relative (relative as in NOT ABSOLUTE) You seem to forget that there is no universal assent to what you call the “truths of Christianity”, how do I know this? Because there are billions of Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, athiests etc. who beg to differ. Therefore, concerning your pathetic arguments that homosexuality is a choice, you would do well to realize that your calling all of us backwards idiots because we do not succumb and mirror your own asinine beliefs about homosexuality is the result of your own failure to understand that your ideas concerning homosexuality are in truth your own opinion which you parade around as “absolute truth”.
Gawd! I reall am writing like Kant would huh Why Kansas? What with my use of run-on sentences… Just like his writing style in his Critiques, wouldnt you agree?
M and why notI’ve been nothing but civil to either one of you. But if this forum stands accused by you of incivility, it is now MY turn.
Well the apple didn’t fall far from that long winded tree!Junior also seemed to have inherited the pompous gene.First I’ve seen a dad go get his son to fight his battles!
Will momma longwind weigh in too? The first two ALMOST put me to sleep. Maybe ma can finish the job?Hey pops I shut your kiddo down cold. And I didn’t have to get nasty to do it.
I just had to make him TRY and prove the basis of his arguement and he came up short. Just like dear ol’ dad.
If you feel your family was badly treated here, I say you’ve only yourselves to blame. You call for civility and then loudly announce that you have already won the debate and anyone who says otherwise is some sort of mental midget. Such typical sanctimony!
Thud goes you. The fall after your pride!
Ramen
Kevin, Kevin, Kevin…….. Your tantrum and outburst is a clear indication that you lack the mental capacity or ability to run a thorough coherent logical argument through that mind of yours. You destroyed any argument you may have made with your outrage and unfounding reasoning by telling me to do to my self that which is anatomically impossible.
And Kevin, I am glad that I am in your mind and that you are kicking my ass, according to you.You have some very serious issues son and perhaps you should seek serious counseling for your anger. Have you always had the uncontrollable outburst of such colorful language? Gee, I have seen people with touretts syndrome, but never in writing. :) That was a joke.
So what happened from yesterday to today? yesterday you were somewhat respectful and focused on your comments, but today WOW did WHY KANSAS get to you or what?
At any rate, thank you for your kind and thoughtful words of encouragement and your suggestions as to what I can do with myself but as I said, that is somewhat of an impossibility. And by the way, as a two tour veteran of Viet Nam, threats from kids like yourself bring no fear into me, I have faced real fear and death and son, you bring no fear into me, just pity…. I will pray for you. (I know, I know, you don’t want my prayers, but hey, its a free country)
M
Again, validate this violation you keep speaking of. Why is it wrong to violate someone? Why is consenting always a good thing? What if a 12 year old boy consents to having sex with a 40 year old man?
What are the standards?
Didn’t they teach you that the slippery slope argument was a fallacy of speech that trespasses the bounds of logical reasoning? Then you make another logical fallacy of equivocation by equating homosexual sex with pedophilia and beastiality. You are a poser buffoon!Like I said grasshopper, take my advice, go back to Philosophy 101 and get a good clinical psychiatrist to overcome your homophobia.
Why Kansas / M,DOn’t leave now! Proving what a poser-philosopher shitkicker you are by destroying your weak arguments is amusing! Dammit! I knew I should have been on in the afternoon.
Mr. Gas Bag- I thought you lifted your skirts and left , never to return, or was it a U-turn?
M
Why don’t you let keith alone. He, like you, is new here.
I am NOT new here. I am well practiced at deflating gas bags such as yourself and your son. As I have today demonstrated.
What you are special because you served in Vietnam? I recall that you gave yourself percieved unique special electoral rights as to the Hate amendment because of your service? I know 3 Vietnam vets on this forum. One already has a low opinion of your haughty air. I can imagine the other two would feel much the same.
In short dear sir, get over yourself. Also, do decide whether you are staying or going. I want to do the polite thing and wish you well when you go but I cannot do so if you keep coming back. This forum has a low tolerance for and opinion of whiny posters who repeatedly announce that they are above the fray and are leaving and taking their ball home only to make the same announcement every other thread or every off day.
Your tantrum and outburst is a clear indication that you lack the mental capacity or ability to run a thorough coherent logical argument through that mind of yours.
M/WHY KANSAS,Your smart-ass sanctimonious holier than thou attitude is deserving of every word of criticism from everyone here. Furthermore, your formulating arguments through logical fallacies is a clear indication that you are an ignoramus. (that is a fact not an insult)
Haven’t had time to follow this thread (or others, for that matter), but the purple chicken informed me of the Nathan-trolling, so thought I’d take a look. I now see some of the other bizarre posts which were mentioned in passing. Whew!
Hmmm. . .
At present, I would only say that I’m pretty sure 415 posts breaks the record for the blog. However, from a quick skim, I would guess the signal-to-noise ratio is considerably lower than the “Morris and the Monster” thread. That’s not good.
May have to call in some favors. . .I dunno.
What a couple of self-absorbed elitist poseur-intellectual pricks! And they had the audacity to ridicule Kansans of being ignorant hillbillies!? Go back to wherever the hell it is you come from and amuse your fellow ignoramus friends with your sad excuse for a college education!
Yeah, and hope their legs grow together!!
M and Why Kansas,You do realize that in a civilized society where thinking men and women have built a working Constitution, where medicine and research are advanced beyond anything our forefathers imagined, that it truly is possible to make the determination that a child, age 0 to 17, is not considered an adult, and therefore is protected by laws. Certainly a 12 year old could feel as if they are consenting to sex, but rational minds prevail, educated minds prevail, and we know a 12 yr old is not able to make sound rational emotional or sexual decisions. In America this is how we operate. We protect all who are violated.I feel violated by both of you; violated in the sense that you both cannot seem to find a rational consensus. One blog you are pushing absolute truth, the next blog you are speaking of your own truth which is relative truth, not absolute truth. You both want to wax on about how ignorant and stupid I am, but with all your contorted philosophy you only convince me that you are confused and have grabbed a hold of religion so you can avoid your other truths. Don’t fret, we all escape sometimes, but I don’t just decide to hate people as an escape.All this talk of absolute this and slippery slope that, it is the fuzz between a teddy bears ears. I certainly hope neither of you holds a post in society where your beliefs are taught to children. You really are sick people. Sick in the sense that you’ve sold your souls to an irrational belief. Yes, it’s been around for 2,000 plus years….but so has homosexuality. Your thing is full of hate, homosexuals seem like they want to love and be loved.So grab your bibles and wait for the rapture…somewhere outside the city limits please. Wouldn’t want a mob to stone you both.It is inconceivable that in this blog and in this modern age that TWO, not one, but TWO religious wingnuts could hook-up on the same blog, unless of course you are the same person, which would explain serving two tours in Nam, one for each identity. Furthermore, Terry Fox has a spot for you in his Wild West Revival Show, come on out, ya’here.On the subject of Nam. I served in the Army during peacetime. I am thrilled by the experience. I do not feel weak because I never saw a front line. I am sure it is indescribable, although I am guessing you feel you can describe it – which of course would be your truth, not the absolute truth. What has happened to your life since Nam? And the other guy/gal, what has happened in your life that you jumped in deep with orthodox relatevism?And why the hell can’t I find something that gets me off more than the Rolling Stones! Yeah, baby. Well, sex, but sex cannot last as the 25 Stones CD’s I own.
Steven: I read your linked article in “Science”. It is an interesting study. I note that there is a response to the main article on the same page setting out another interpretation of the evidence. When taken together, it looks like an even-handed discussion that reflects the differing opinions of scientists concerning the state of the evidence as to whether tendencies toward homosexuality are inherited.
Also, your second link in fact does not link to an article.
My friend Rage (who I have met in person) is correct. At more than 400 posts. this is by far the most posted thread in the history of this forum.
Before this, another thread devoted to the Terry Fox scandal generated close to 200 posts.
If that is not proof that the Terry Fox scandal is not going away, I do not know what is. I’ll get back to that.
We are gaining new posters here and I call that good except for the fact that my friend kansasfarmgrrl (who I have also personnaly met) is also correct. I believe that some of our new posters have an agenda new to this forum. Namely, they are here to distract from the topic at hand and in other ways thwart the search for the truth in this matter. Consider TM who told a fellow poster to “shut up” about relevant information he had as to the matter at hand. A first for this forum. And she apparently got her wish. JB has not posted since TM told him not to. Consider also M and why not. They addressed the Tiahrt scandal in passing but mainly devoted their energies to misdirecting the thread to themselves. Quite successfully by the way.I wonder why they went to such trouble. I trust my friend ksfarmgrrl her instinct they had a reason.
This story is not going away and clearly needs more light and less heat. I’d like to help in that.
I know that though silenced JB must be reading here. I believe other members of the Immanuel congregation may be reading us too. I remind that this forum is almost totally anonymous and invite them to post here and share what they know. The people who are part of the story should do the telling of it.
I DO understand the need to feel loyalty to ones congregation and not to lend personally to “airing” dirty laundry. To that end, I invite anyone with information on the events leading to Terry Fox’s badly explained departure from Immanuel to email me personally. You can do that by clicking on my nic. Or, if there is another poster here you find more credible, email them. Share your story. I trust almost any poster here to be judicious with your information. Please, no cranks. This is a search for truth not an exploration of creative hate.
This is why blogging is important. There is a story here that the media is not telling. That invites the story to tell itself. I think we all prefer the truth from those who know it. And it is said the truth shall set you free.
In the above, I wrongly post as to “Tiahrt scandal” This is an unfortunate mistake that I wish to correct. The matter at hand is the Terry Fox question. I had earlier posted a Tiahrt thread. I apologize the confusion.
Outlander:”Also, your second link in fact does not link to an article.”
My apologies, I thought the 2nd link was a listing of 3 articles on the same subject. They are kind of old – obtained from “google, scholar” – not from the latest reseach available in this area.
I appreciate your regard, JR, but I am not silenced. I just work. And as dinner is almost ready I don’t have much time to post. Let me say, however, that you are correct that the subject of this blog has deviated a great deal. All I have to say is that Terry Fox starting a new church at WWW, and trying to split Immanuel shows who he truly is, and that he is concerned only about himself and his own recognition. It proves that he doesn’t love the church or it’s work, only himself. I hope that the church can move con with a new focus of ministry, and helping those who need help. Our inner city location gives a unique oppurtunity that we can help the homeless and the needy, and the church hasn’t been living up to that charge as much as it should have in the past. I personally hope for a new direction for Immanuel, and that we can dissassocitate ourselves with Fox and his Amusment Park Christianity.
What did I say? Trolls, plain and simple.
OFF TOPIC:This is just my contribution to break the record for most postings.Say, can anyone tell me the summary of what the “Hate Amendment” would do to unmarried hetero couple, esp. w/ children?
Need 36 more postings to hit 500!On the topic, I just feel sad that many Christians (Mind you, not all, so don’t take it personally. You know who you are!) are more comfortable worshipping around a person, almost like a cult. It may serve them well actually to get some fresh air and hear somebody else’s take on God. But, that’s my personal opinion. Heck, I learn and appreciate my own Catholicism more from studying other religions than the years of Catholic schooling and indoctrination. I have long viewed religions as mere tools, not the ultimate goals, toward the Almighty.
Why Kansas/M……………whatever he/she is going by now needs to be ignored. Actually a tactical nuke up the a** would be more appropriate. This person THINKS they have superior debating skills, but he/she do not. He/she is just another sanctimonious fundie. DO NOT ENGAGE!
And kevin, whoever you are, please be careful about where and to who you discuss your most personal things with.Some things should not be open for debate in a public forum.
“Kevin, Kevin, Kevin…….. Your tantrum and outburst is a clear indication that you lack the mental capacity or ability to run a thorough coherent logical argument through that mind of yours.”
I see how that christian charity and civility works. Big words, and lots of them, but civility seems to be lacking.
I guess in the church of the Y family narcisstics, big words and lots of them = good and charitable.
hee hee hee ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Typical christian conservatives. Must be the same civility practiced by the price family. We see how all that civility works on your side.
I still say anyone who BEGINS a discussion quoting a gay porn star on the supposed dangers of gayness deserves what they get.
Ridicule and laughter.
Looks like they got both in spades and now they wanna huff off in a self righteous snit over civility?
hehehehehehehehehhe
We went through this before on this blog. And unlike your boy, the preznit, we WONT be fooled again by your whining about civility.
In your world, I guess no matter how nasty and hateful the comment, if it is wrapped in enough big words and incoherant rambling, we will all be turned into pillars of salt when we see your brilliance.
hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee
Laughing stocks. We are amused, however, and we do encourage you to try again.
And please dont leave the field. You are the best advertising the antiterrys have.
…and can their little trolling dog nathan be far behind when he sees my name here?
He never read one of my posts he could resist…..
one more observation while the self righteous right takes its time getting here…..
Since this is now the most posted thread in blog history….
and since I counted only six posters defending the little ayatollah (the two price boys, the Y family, todd and outlander)
Does that give anyone at the ayatollah’s base camps (both former and current) a clue about how far out of the mainstream they are? About the contempt with which this community and this state regard brer terry AND HIS CHURCHES?
Hmmmmm…….
Maybe the collective trek to the polls this year will reflect how far the right reverend ayatollah has fallen?
How his church might be treated in a secular arena?
Kinda like how he and his church treated gay folks and anyone who didnt bow down to the golden calf known as terry?
heheheheh. Like I always say, paybacks are such a bitch.
So… six supporters here and ? how many realists who see and are willing to speak about the damage caused to this community and this state by the ayatollah terry and his little yapping dogs?
bring.it.on.
Oh, and one more thing before nathan gets here….
….A vote for part time jim and susan “i own gambling joints but you cant vote on casinos” wagle…
…is a vote to put TERRY, JOE AND FRED!!!! in charge of the kansas constitution.
Take a good look here kansas. Are THESE the people you really want running the state? Are you prepared for an OFFICIAL theocracy where the ayatollah terry reigns supreme?
Kansas… as vengeful as you might think when the worm finally turns.
And I saw one using it’s turn signals today. Not in wichta of course!
Girl do you remember the married team of similar finger waggers, quite some time back?Maybe not, I don’t remember you giving them the snark, as you surely would have.Yes, they teamed up on the eee-vil sinners and money changers here.Ha, they even used those words.MONEY CHANGERS. HAOne of them actually told me that my problem was that I got too caught up in the “spirit of christian love”, to be a proper christian.They were a real hoot. Moved here from California.They called me everything but human, and then dissapeared.Must have had God’s hate to preach somewhere else.
It seems that the righties here who trot out the tired line:
“if gay people are allowed to marry than who is to stop them from marrying sheep, german shepards, and little children”
might want to reconsider using such patent foolishness, given the backlash going on in Colorado over similar “beastiality” comments made by a candidate there.
I see nathan as well as the ayatollah and his flying monkeys use that canard regularly.
I can only hope it engenders the same results as it did here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364×1926805
Neat site from the link.Got it marked.
heheh tracy. I think they have reappeared in different nics.
like rockl and her hubby dm
like the Y family.
There have been others, but their rhetoric is so boring that after you wade through the gibberish and the multiple big words wrapped in bible verses…
…it is kinda hard to see whatever point they tried to make.
I think they must troll the blog, then use different nics.
I guess the rovester musta sent THAT tactic out over the evildoers.net site.
hehehehehehe
KFG,
What makes you so much better than a poligamist or more deserving of marriage?
Go figure…
The typical ramblings of KFG. I actually thought there was some discussion I was missing out on over here.
Concerning nics and trolls, check out the open thread post I just put up.
here it is:From the Salina blog, and of special interest here.Being a troll is actually ILLEGAL!!
It Might be Illegal to AnnoyAugust 16th, 2006by Greg StephensSince the subject of posting anonymously has come up here a few times, this might be a good time to explore the topic. Before starting let it be known that the intention of this blog is to inform and not criticize anyone for decisions thay have made in regard to this matter.
A couple months ago Kevin raised a question whether there was any significance why and who posted anonymously or used real names. When I started blogging I thought long and hard about this decision. Here are some thoughts that directed my decision. There is a difference between the two and it is like the difference between two tools such as a hammer and a saw. Both are effective and useful tools and each tool is used for a different purpose. I think blogging with or without a real name is the same. Anonymous blogging works better when, or if, one wants to act as a whistleblower, watchdog, or catalyst for change in a risky environment. Blogging with a name causes one to write in a more accountable manner…and likely elevates credibility of content because anyone can always go back and read what has been posted. Given that difference, the blogging world is largely a world of anonymity and most Salina Journal bloggers are also posting anonymously. ExMeadowlark aside, many here are NOT blogging as watchdogs; they are mostly posting to persuade, inform or express thoughts. In other words some might occassionally be trying to pound nails with a tool other than a hammer.
On another note of significance, since many bloggers feel anonymous blogging offers protection, it should be stated that blogging anonymously may actually be more risky and include more liability. According to C-Nets political correspondent Declan McCullagh, a federal law passed by the R’s and signed by President Bush in January states that when you annoy someone on the Internet, you must disclose your identity. Here’s the relevant language:
“Whoever…utilizes any device or software that can be used to originate telecommunications or other types of communications that are transmitted, in whole or in part, by the Internet… without disclosing his identity and with intent to annoy, abuse, threaten, or harass any person…who receives the communications…shall be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.”Not everyone goes as far as Declan McCullagh in his interpretation of the legislation. And free speech advocates are ready to challenge the interpretation. But the bottom line is the freedom that blogging anonymously gives someone may also carry certain responsibilities and limits not imposed on those who disclose their identity. It’s just science, for every action there is a reaction. Blog On!
478 posts!!! 478? on THIS? Unbelievable. A story of nearly zero significance to anyone other than members of the churches involved.
478, as of this writing, and now going up, I’m sure. Amazing.
And how many are KFG’s pointless nasty rants? Lots; I won’t count, I’ll leave that to others.
And other than your usual figer wagging what did YOU add here GMC?
Don’t you ever get tired of being a scold?
I call it encouraging that this thread and this subject are getting so much attention.
Though his congregation at the theme park is likely to be smaller, it will also be more concentrated to the true believers of Terry Fox. Too, the man has a radio show on sattelite radio that has the potential to reach millions. He is also no stranger to national TV exposure on right wing political programs. It is part of our civic duty to as best we can fully understand such a person of potential political power.
“A story of nearly zero significance to anyone other than members of the churches involved.”
Those of us who watched the good rev amass political power and hurt people would beg to differ, GMC.
More than you might want to know on what Tracy mentioned (it’s actually pretty old news):
http://www.politechbot.com/docs/unlawfulconduct.html
P.S. I’m not aware of the new law the columnist mentioned. If someone could dig that up, that’d be great.
Rage, dontcha just love how the religious right acts like all their political activities and the hate amendment are just some harmless frat prank that didnt really hurt anyone anyway?
it didnt hurt anyone….
…’cause they were already second class citizens!
It was no big deal, just a little show of church muscle, and it didnt really matter that they screwed the IRS and the constitution to institutionalize that second class citizenship even deeper.
Heheh. No big deal. Just a buncha godless queers anyway.
They think “no harm no foul”. Just a harmless frat prank.
And gmc, you make seven supporters for the ayatollah. A real rush to support him.
hehehehehehehehehe
It continues to mystify me why gmc doesnt just scroll by my posts.
I still think he is secretly hot for me…..
JB..
“Our inner city location gives a unique oppurtunity that we can help the homeless and the needy, and the church hasn’t been living up to that charge as much as it should have in the past.”
I would be great to see a church the size of Immanuel doing work for the poor and homeless. IMHO, Rev. Fox has led you to focus on the wrong things. Too many of the downtown churches do see these people as just an annoyance instead of an opportunity to do the Lord’s work. It is now a GREAT opportunity for your congregation… don’t let it slip away :)
KFG..
It seems you are assuming that kevin is a Christian.. to me, he is a really scary guy.. his thoughts and beliefs are much too New Age to be considered “Christian”. I will not argue with the rest of your assessment of his posts….
Ksam (and JB too)
You know I thought of you when I read that from JB. I was gonna post to that but it was quite late. I’ll take care of that now.
JB I know you are new and some of us may seem quite unfair to some of the more extreme Christians. Let me step away from that for a minute.You and ksam might have much interst in common to discuss JB. Kanssasam is highly respected and well thought of here. He does good work.
Kansassam-You are entirely correct, and many people in the church do see this as an increadibly oppurtunity. There are churches that have increadible outreach programs- medical clinics, dinners for homeless, ect. I think that this is a place where our church hasn’t been fufulling it’s true commision to the best of it’s ability. I think that in the future we will see a reemphasis on ministry from Immanuel.
JR..
Thanks for your support on that.
JB..
Jesus smiled…..
JR-I think that we have all said things about people we disagree with that aren’t always kind, and in retrospect, the best way to convince someone to our side. Your honesty and objectivity on this blog has been admirable.
Sam, I have no problem with Kevin’s posts.
I was referring to the supporters of taliban terry.
Sorry for the confusion.
That’s the nicest thing that’s been posted as to me in a long while JB. Thanks! It is ESPECIALLY appreciated from a new poster.
As we move toward the 500th post on this thread, does anyone suspect that brother Terry himself may be reading us? I kinda do. Maybe he will grace us at the 500th post?
I think the man is a study in ego. I watched him on TV often. Now to be fair to Immanuel, the broadcasts may be taped strictly with an eye to convenience. But the church always looked quite empty and the congregation wore somewhat pained expressions. Brother Terry often follows a statement with “Can I get an amen? Preacher says something right say amen!” This COULD be interpreted as trying to “fire up” folks. But just my opinion it looked like brother Terry wanting affirmation for himself from the congregation. Kinda like “tell me how right I am”.
JR-The “can I get an amen” that you refer to is common to african-american churches and in Southern Baptist churches (Immanuel is SB).
Ah I see. Maybe it was just my perception then that it was an ego thing.
I’m sorry this is not nice. But I can’t resist. Do you suppose at his new home at Cowboyland he will say yeehaa like the header suggests? “Yeehaw! Can I get a yeehaw? Preacher says something right say yeehaw!”
Friends, Foes, and no-shows,I hereby appologize for behavior unbecoming of a simple minded moral generally nice guy. This has been my first time through the blog world and I let fly with many false accusations, insanely rediculous chatter, and showed a lack of respect for this forum. I have not once felt the anger that some have taken my tone to be. Admittedly, I do not have the debate skills, nor am I a scholar or theology, philosophy, or sophistry. I do consider myself an educated person who sees the world with a pluralistic eye. Social relativism can be spun to mean we are eroding moral truths, or absolute truths, whatever the argument may be. Realistically we all have around 80 years to live on Mother Earth. I choose to live without religion because religion chooses to not include me. I cannot be more than I am. I am pretty sure God made me this way. As centuries of debate linger by we are living and dying. Some on this earth never learn of Christianity. Some Christians on this earth never learn of other religions. We all die in the end. So, this brings me to my own personal generalization. What are we accomplishing as human beings, as Americans, when we spend our time and brainpower debating the relavency of religion when in 2000 years it has not ‘cured’ homosexuality, has been unproven statistically to cure men of homosexuality, and in our great country is now losing out to the spreading acceptance of homosexuals. The acceptance is occuring because homosexuals are coming out of the closet and families, and friends, and neighbors are realizing how good and wholesome homosexuals can be – on average.We are going to die. Worry about your own life and let go of determining what’s right for others.I have belabored this point and will continue to do so. We are Americans. In this country – my rights end where your nose begins. Simple. If two consenting adults wish to share LOVE and SEX, we as upholders of the constitution must respect this right. I think we need to put the country we live in ahead of our religious beliefs.As long as anti-homosexual pastors and followers dislike homosexuality without degrading homosexuals then things should be just fine. But when churches and pastors get public attention for their vile hatred then these arguments will continue to occur.Someone wrote about young christian boys earlier in blog, describing how they verbally assaulted a young gay person calling him despicable names. These kids more than likely think this is okay because mommy, daddy, and the pastor talk like that.Doesn’t a homosexual person have the right to live their lives without being publically hated for being something they know comes from inside them, how God made them.Religion and lack of tolerance are really the biggest choices that are being made. Orthodox and misguided Chritians, look within yourself and try to come up with any other scenario where you publicly, politically, socially, generationally, spread a feeling of disgust and hatred for any other law abiding American citizen.If Pastor Terry did not hate gays he would not have a following.
Money quote from Kevin:
“If Pastor Terry did not hate gays he would not have a following”
Amen to that Kevin.
Oh, and RAMEN!!!!!!!
Top Ramen? ha haThanks KFG
We need more people like Sam and JB.
RageGo fuck yourself.
That was quoted from Vice President Dick Cheney during a recent verbal spew he put forth on the floor of congress.
Did I hurt your feelings? Are you going to quote some congressional act and charge me with la la la. Are you going to pray for me? La la la.What we need is less talk and more action. Stop blogging and go out and feed a homeless guy. Stop blogging and go out and pray at the entrance of a gay club. Stop blogging and piss off.
JR:I must admit that the New sanctuary is not filled to capacity every Sunday, but in the old sanctuary, we had two morning Worship services, the first being filled with about 200-300 and the second service was always at capactiy 1400.The New sanctuary seats approximately 2800-2900, so we didn’t expect it to be filled to capacity within the first year, which we just passed in May, 2006.
I believe Terry is bold and confrontational in his expositional style of preaching, but he is not arrogant. If you don’t know him, then you are left with only your perception of him. He is a most humble man. I know him and Barbara. They aren’t perfect people. None of us who profess to be Christians have perfect words, thoughts or deeds, but we have acknowledged, confessed and repented of our sins to Jesus the Christ and we believe and accept the atoning work of Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection.In one of the previous posts, I think it was by Why Kansas, there was a debate regarding truth.I think there is something to be gained by taking another look at truth.
truth is absolute…….la la la….la lal la…la la…la laGet over yourself.
Truth is relative, any other way of looking at it is another wasted minute of your short life.Okay – I really suck at aplogies, don’t I.”may the bird of paradise fly up your nose”Little Jimmy Dickens.
My names Kevin,I’m 25. I like birds, dancing ponies, pink donuts,fresh daisies, yellow eye glasses, and I like to walk on water when time allows.There. now you know me.
ksfarmgrrl:Pastor Terry does not hate gays.How many times do we have to be as redundant as you?Pastor Terry does not hate gays!Pastor Terry does not hate gays!I do believe, however, that you hate.I’m sorry that you perceive your civil rights are discriminated against. Tell us EXACTLY which of your SPECIFIC civil rights have been discriminated against?1. You co-habitate with whomever, whenever and where ever.2. You work and live as you please.3. You say what you please, regardless of who you slander.4. You are free to do as you please.
Tell us EXACTLY which of your SPECIFIC civil rights have been discriminated against?
Hi, my names Terry F.I’m old. I like black mold on my cheese. I like to make gay teenagers hate themselves; I just know by doing this the lord loves me. On weekends I tell tall tales to sycophants. I just joined a cowboy club. Johhny W. said he is going to Brokeback Mountain and will be back in a few days. He asked if I wanted to go but I am just so scared of sheep. I enjoy preventing two human beings from having the same rights as me. Oh, I think it is fun to outfox the taxman. If I could, I would like to be ayatollah of Iran. Oh, I forgot, my favorite restuarant is Chick-filla. yummeee.My friends RJ and Mas like to watch me make flower arrangements. We all giggle. Robert Mitchum is my favorite actor; sometimes I dream about him. My long distance friend, Fred Felch, is sometime mean to me. He makes me run many miles and then beats me. But I like him because he stands for truth.Well, there you go, that’s me.
Damn kevin, you let every new poster play you like that?Dude, get a grip.Your emotions are all over the place.Hang out and observe before you fly off the handle.If there is somebody being really toxic with their words, then pass them up.
TMDoes Fox LIKE gays? How does preaching that they are child molesters and bad influences mean that he does not hate gays?Will pastor Terry go on television and say that he LIKES gays. I am not talking about LOVE. It seems that word is overused by your type of Christians. As if to say, we love to spread hate about you so you will see that you are a loser.Ya’ll need to hire a PR firm. If all you accomplish is preaching to the choir then it’s just a self-loving little congregation, isn’t it.Pastor Terry HATES Gays just like Hitler hated gays, and Jews. Couldn’t the argument be made that Jews, Muslims, etc. have it worse off than homosexuals? They have chosen to not be Christians. Why doesn’t your Pastor Terry carry on like a monster about them?
I am not pissed at all. I was having fun and shouldn’t be in this forum. I am checking out.Goodbye all. I won’t be back, promise.Unless of course I get up tomorrow and start up again. Pastor Terry taught me well.
WTF ????Like I said man get a grip.
Kevin:Your words are venomous.You don’t even know Pastor Terry and Barbara.I do.
“None of us who profess to be Christians have perfect words, thoughts or deeds, but we have acknowledged, confessed and repented of our sins to Jesus the Christ and we believe and accept the atoning work of Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection.”
Uh TM, you forgot the end of that little statement.
“and that makes all the hateful and harmful stuff we do in the world ok.”
Dont bother to thank me for filling in the blank. I know it was an honest mistake on your part.
And perceptions? I think we know him by his own words and his own deeds. We dont have to make anything up and chalk it up to a perception.
Evil is as evil does.
I’m tired of doing research for people like you TM. Go to the hrc website. There are over 1000 rights and benefits of civil marriage that are denied gay couples because they do not have the right to civil recognition of their relationships.
Go look it up yourself and then tell us what you find.
You can do that, right?
Uhm, kevin, I haven’t really followed this thread–I think I posted that earlier–but what I was referring to what JR was talking about. You know, Christians who aren’t seeking to rule over the rest of us. I like Sam and I don’t really know JB.
Did I miss something?
I know you are probably not literate with anything other than the bible, so here is a little link for ya.
you can manage to click on the link without the ayatollah’s permission?
The title of this is RIGHTS and PROTECTIONS denied to gay couples.
http://hrc.org/Template.cfm?Section=Center&CONTENTID=14698&TEMPLATE=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm
I cant wait to hear how “this pipe is not a pipe”.
Okay, I came back for a peek. I am sorry to Rage. I guess I went into a rage. ha ha.Tracy – you’ve got me all wrong, but I appreciate your style.KFG – I support you!
WHATEVER
…this pipe is not a pipe because there is no proof that metal is metal because science always is biased. Why, even these new-fanlged x-ray machines will show ya stuff ya never seen before. How do I know that round thing is my brain? I can’t see inside for myself and I sure won’t take a scientists word for it.What does the bible say about my internal organs? Hmm, I don’t see a diagram.Dern, I know Pastor Terry will know, he knows everything.
I think those last four words are a good closer, dude (unless we’re aiming for 500 posts :-).
KFG — I support you!
(Are we done?)
hehehehe rage, and you know I support you too!!!!
No, I’m not done here. I’m waiting for TM to come back after reading the more than 1000 EXACT rights and protections denied to gay folks by the hate amendment.
Go ahead tm, I know it will take some time for you to read all that. I will wait. Right here. For you to come back.
TRACY – you seem rattled. Does it suck that you want to support me but fear losing the admirable respect of the boredom bloggers?Can’t you see – my mockery and disgust is my truth. It is not a second class communication style. Some of these blog-monkeys are very skilled in saying nothing for hours…now days. For me, it is all the same shit. I have no reason to respect these Christian characters.I find it interesting that they can draw a hard line with homosexuals, I assume because it is popular, but they do not draw a hard line for themselves. They just kneel down on Sunday and all their ‘minor’ sins go away. Hogwash! I don’t buy it. I don’t respect it. It is crapola.People should not gather to perpetrate lies about homosexuals – but the do. Christians, Muslims, Jews, Republicans, Cowboys, Wild West Shows, Hollywood, Mel Gibson, and some of these blog jokers. Being well versed in the bible means absolutely nothing to me. A real church helps people, helps society, helps the homeless. Pastor Terry’s Church help themselves by spreading lies to ‘turn out the vote’ among god fearing christians. It amazes me still today that a little old lady will vote for the first time in 30 years if her preacher tells her to.Fox is crap. In all of his bravado, all of his public profile, what is he know for? Helping others? NO.As for me, I don’t suffer fucksticks easily. What’s more important is that is my way of thinking and my fellow fucksticks on the other side have their way of thinking. The major difference is that they need to start thumbing through the constitution once in a while. Give the bible a break. Become an American and throw your hatred down. If these so-called Christians would leave homosexuals alone – we would not be having this blog today.
tap, tap, tap, tap, tap……
I want to go away but this thing is addictive.”I could of been somebody, I could’a been a contenda”On the Waterfront
Kev-It’s ok, breathe deep…in….out…in…out…in…outnow – take your meds and you’ll be fine.Dude…seriously…you’re buggin’ here…seriously – get a grip
KFG -my imitation: Oh my goodness, this is a long list of rights. Well, Brother Terry never told me about this. I guess maybe I should start thinking for myself? Naaa, Terry has a personal relationship with Jesus. Gee, I know it’s been really hot this summer, but Brother Terry says there ain’t no global warming, and, well, I just have to believe him. I mean, he has a billboard and all. Must mean he’s right. Ahh, them homosexuals are just trying to lure me in. If we don’t keep’em separate them how will we know who they are? I’ll tell KFG that Kant and Hume and Hazel would not support her ideas for rights. Then I’ll talk about some trilogy,written by a human, and tell her that is where I base my truth. Oh, I hope she does not remind me that the bible was written by man. That is so hard to defend. I mean, Howard Stern wrote two books… I mean, I heard he did. …..Dear Jesus, howz come I have headaches every day?
I am breathing. Yes. I am also having fun while eating pita and hummus from N&J Bakery.
“If you like hummus, then come to N&J!!”I just made up that jingle.
The rights in your link are marital privileges.None of your civil rights have been violated.This is a mute point.We agree to disagree based on our belief system, BUT that doesn’t mean I hate you or that Terry hates you or that God hates you.
Now Fred Phelps, you bet he hates you. Every word he spews is full of hatred. He has no love for people at all and believs there is no redemption for what the Bible calls “reprobates.”Fred Phelps has no burden for the spiritually lost and dying.To equate Fred Phelps with the word “hate” is true, but not with Terry, myself or Immanuel.
MOOT
I guess it could be mute too since we cannot hear you.
TM.But you all think homosexuals are lost, which leads to bigotry.
You keep patting yourself on the back.Why is marriage a state licences relationship?Since the Gov. is involved it should be a right to all.The Constitution will explain this to you if you ever read it.
TMYou cannot regulate morality, not when it involved two consenting adults. So don’t vote against gays who want to marry. The Supreme Court will allow gays to marry within the next 20 years. I hope Uncle Terry doesn’t serve you up some kool-aid that day…hint hint. Don’t drink the Kool-aid, unless you have a good hold on Uncle Terry’s coat tails.
All practicing homosexuals ARE lost if they don’t acknowledge their continual practices as sin and needing the redemptive work of the Blood of Christ.That doesn’t mean I hate them, OK!
It’s good to know that all of you are right and the OMNIPOTENT, ALMIGHTY, OMNISCIENT GOD, the CREATOR of Heaven and Earth, the author of the Bible through the DIVINE inspiration of the HOLY SPIRIT is wrong and irrelevant, just because YOU say so.KANSANS should be proud to posess such closed-mindedness and believers of lies!
Someone has to regulate morality when people want to LEGISLATE IMMORALITY.YEAH KANSAS!!! 70 + percent of us voted FOR the Marriage amendment.
TM,You say you base everything you believe on scripture, but so do a lot of people you disagree with. In fact, those scripures are so vague and self-contradictory that everything from christian nationalism to liberation theology has been based on them. In other words, they mean whatever you want them to mean. Utterly Useless!You use the bible to prove god, and then you turn around and use god to prove the bible, a classic example of a tautology. Utterly meaningless!None of this would matter if you weren’t so self-convinced in your own righteousness that you are dangerous to anyone who disagrees with you.
My righteousness is as filthy rags.The redemptive work of the Blood of Jesus is imputed as righteousness to me. In and of myself, I have no righteousness. I am saved by the blood of the Lamb.You take it up with GOD. He is the one you disagree with. Ask God to show you HIMSELF and HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
TM,I have no argument with god; my argument is with you!
TMAre you a sinner? Do you practice any sins that you feel should be against the law? I know you will say you are a sinner in that goofy way all you types do…But what I mean is – do you feel your sins are personal or do you feel the government should be involved in outlawing your sin?If you are a sinner then why do you feel it is okay to judge another sinner? Isn’t god the judge? Are you in favor of a Crusade to wrangle up and imprison homosexuals? Of course you say no – but would you vote against a government that chose to do so?TM – there most likely will never be a popular vote in favor of gay marriage. This certainly does not mean gay marriage is wrong. It means a majority of the voters are 1) straight and 2) uncomfortable with gay marriage. Would you like it if us bloggers voted to decide how your personal life should be conducted?AGAIN TM – it’s not about your beliefs, or the majority of societies beliefs, it’s about equal rights under the Constitution of the United States. And I am proud to say – you will eventually lose and then you can have your operation rescue street crawl, get arrested, and feel like you’ve done something.It is so wonderful knowing that you have no power over me. If you did then I would have to use greater means to change that situation.It’s easy for you to live in Kansas with your 70% friends. I know many fine people who voted against gay marriage. They aren’t like you. They feel the way they do and I liken it to their age and upbringing rather than their divine knowledge. They would never assume to know what God expects.Someone the other day answered my question about why God allows war, and disease to occur. The answer was that God doesn’t operate on a human level – something like that. So, how the hell do you know what god wants?You were sold to believe the bible was written by divine intervention. You mumble about some blood from a lamb. If I wanted to sell you a book, it would damn sure be easier if i told you that god wrote it. I guess it is hard for you to imagine thousands of men devoting their life to God and becoming preachers to communicate his word. You religious folks have caused more deaths by your rigid history than any other reason for war. Good men have died for many unjust causes. You are careless with your words, worthless in your citizenship, and a royal pain in the ass to society.BUT – I relax knowing the trends are on my side. You will not create a theocracy. You will experience gay marriage in your lifetime. You will see two men kissing in a church in Wichita. Yes, your 70% will keep dwindling, and the supreme court and/or the congress will enact equal rights for gays. When you die and see your gay brothers in heaven it is then you will realize that books are books and all lambs bleed.
TM,You are bug-fucking nuts! Get some meds, you will feel better.
New here. Amazed actually. Such hate from so many who seem to be terribly worried about “hate from this guy Terry Fox”. Wow.
PT,Hey man, this isn’t hate, it’s christian love, just the way Terry practices it!
TM:An immorality legislated sounds better than immorality unlegislated. At least there’s a mechanism for control and regulation. Take prostitution. It will always exist, law of demand and supply dictates it. However, by regulating it, you introduce control. The workers can be protected from abusive pimps and johns, their health can be rigorously monitored, and they can be made to pay tax. The old town of Delano can be revived!But this is strying too far from the topic of Terry Fox, and his ego trip. I do feel he should take a break from opening up a new church. Travel a bit, take a sabbatical, write a book, or something. His action reminds me of a guy who went on trip overseas, but always insisted on eating at McDonald’s. He couldn’t get away from his [narrow] comfort zone. The same can be said about the defectors from IBC. They don’t love the Church, [or God,] they only want to worship the preacher.
And Kevin:The reason I take GOD at HIS word is because I actually read HIS word, comprehend HIS word, love HIS word and believe HIS word.You presume to know that GOD approves of the homomsexual lifestyle? You presume to KNOW that GOD changed HIS mind regarding this particular sin that you want to be condoned, supported and legislated by the government?How many times have you accepted, then rejected what GOD has to say about anything in the BIBLE?Do you really care to KNOW what GOD thinks and commands?As I said in an earlier post:”It’s good to know that all of you are right and the OMNIPOTENT, ALMIGHTY, OMNISCIENT GOD, the CREATOR of Heaven and Earth, the author of the Bible through the DIVINE inspiration of the HOLY SPIRIT is wrong and irrelevant, just because YOU say so.KANSANS should be proud to posess such closed-mindedness and believe lies!”At least I love you people enough to tell you GOD’s TRUTH.
TM: “At least I love you people enough to tell you GOD’s TRUTH.”So, truth IS relative? I can have my own truth, you can have yours. How do we know [your] God authored the Bible? And if so, how come it doesn’t all come out at the same time, making it the authoritative edition, so to speak?
On a tangent, one name for Satan is The Deceiver. One night I got to wonder if during the “pre-historic” battle between good and evil, Lucifer actually did win and assumed the heavenly throne, but decided to pass himself as God, “just for some cosmic laugh.”
Roo Haa…”how come it doesn’t all come out at the same time, making it the authoritative edition, so to speak?”
I’ve often wondered that myself, but then if God truly wants people to believe “by faith”, how could he do that? If He autographed His book then we would believe “by proof”….
By the way.. on the lighter side.. you are really thinking with that Satan comment.. but I don’t think so..
I have seen god on TV and he looked just like George Burns… LOL!
TM,Hey, calm down, relax. We’re just expressing our own ideas here. I know that expressing ones ideas may be hard for one so brainwashed as yourself, but please take into account that not all of us poor hell-bound idol-worshipping sinners were reared in fundamentalistic communities where being an individual is not allowed. Thank you and good morning.
I wondered how “this is not a pipe” would be worded.
“The rights in your link are marital privileges.None of your civil rights have been violated.This is a mute point.”
heheheheheheh. Of course. Predictable. Now do you see why I dont do research for nut jobs like TM.
Keep posting TM. We love it. My side needs all the recruits it can get. Keep posting that bible thumpin’ drivel and showing us all the truth about what happens when you drink too much of that fux flavored koolaide.
PLEASE DONT STOP!!!!!!!!!!!
My shelves aren’t HALF full of toaster ovens.
Yet….
It’s amazing how often this post goes off subject. No matter how many times I say, I can never get this point across. Defending Terry Fox does not mean defending Christianity. So many people have been lured into the trap of defending Christianity instead of Terry Fox. Terry is not the arbiture of all things Christian, and we shouldn’t assume that just because he is on trial in the court of public opinion that Christianinty is. Falling into this trap has been one of the main reasons so many nasty fights have broken out on this blog. You will never win anyone to Christ in a shouting match, and likewise, someone who doesn’t believe in Christ will never win someone to their side by screaming at them. So much on this blog has been futile efforts.
Regarding whether or not you need to know Terry Fox to have an opinion of him, I’m sorry, but this is hogwash. By thier works shall you know them. Terry has set himself up to be judged in the court of opinion by always being the first one to run to the newspapers and the media. His voice, his side of the story is always heard. Terry isn’t just another pastor minding his own business. If that was so, I would agree that people need to shut up and let this be worked out by the church. Terry pushed himself on the community, and the community has a right to have an opinion of him.
If it can’t be seen that Terry Fox’s attitude has become ‘all about me,’ then I sincerly think that you have been blinded. One doesn’t start a new church so he can preach what he wants right after stepping down from his old church saying that he didn’t feel called to preach anymore if he didn’t like hearing the sound of his own voice. He also wouldn’t try to cause a nasty split in his former church if he really loved it and it’s work. And tell me. what will be the purpose of this new church. Will their be ministies, out reach programs? It sounds to me that it will purely be a vehical for Terry’s preaching. That in my opinion is not how a humble man acts.
Let me reittereate once more that I am excited and ready for the church to move on. I feel however, that Immanuel must seperate itself with Terry Fox, show the community that we are ready to move on with a new ministy orientation.
TM and their ilk really believe they are doing some kind of tough love for Jesus.How mistaken and misguided.They came here judging,and in turn have been judged.
Oh I think it is perfectly legit to put christianity on trial.
When it is used to make law, elect officials, and otherwise rule public secular life, the validity of christianity as a moral compass is VERY fair game.
The more you make them show themselves, the more we see the true nature of christianity.
Indeed, by their deeds and works you shall know them.
They dont like to be shown in the light of truth. They prefer to operate in their own little shaddow world where taliban terry is the king, joe is on the right hand, and fred is the court jester.
I say the more they and their works come to light, the sooner the voters will wise up that this is just facism, wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.
Like I said, keep posting. The more you talk, the more we see your true nature.
TM – you believe BECAUSE you want to believe. We are all taught about life through our experiences. To quote, William S. Burroughs, “if you are doing business with a religious son-of-a-bith, get it in writing, his word isn’t worth shit, not with the good lord telling him how to fuck you on the deal.” taken from ‘Words of Advice for Young People’. I reccomend the musical reading from Rhaphsody.comI wonder if the quote applies to Mr. Fox?
There are lots of good people who truly live Christ’s example.
That’s why you never hear about them, because they quietly and humbly work behind the scene, never needing praise and recognition. Working for the good of all, in a spirit of non-harmfullness.
So, marriage is a privilege reserved for a heterosexual majority? Sorry, but under the 14th Amendment (…. nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.) there are no privileged classes in this country. I know that must hurt something awful, but hey, that’s the law of the land!
Tracy,Yeah, and a lot of the people that live that way aren’t even christian, just human.
Yes Jed, that’s why I carefully worded that.
I, for one, refuse to believe that a Bhuddist monk who spent his life in service to others,IS GOING TO HELL.
Tracy, agreed.
But TM has the Bible and Terry to tell her what to say, do and think. Sadly, in this instance, it’s more true than usual. TM does not think. TM quotes. And quotes. And rants quotes, screaming the love of Jesus.
Well, TM you’re living proof of why I run FAST in the opposite direction. You see, it isn’t what you say here, it isn’t the phamplets handed to me at RiverFest or the Watchtowers that I gracefully refuse, it isn’t Terry Fox and his type, it’s what you do and how loving and kind you are to others that will win me over to Christianity.
…and I refuse to believe that evil doers like the ayatollahs terry, joe and fred are going to go to heaven.
Same goes for TM, the Y family, etc.
Billy Joel had it right. I’d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints.
It will be so.much.fun. watching them wail and gnash their teeth as their homophobia rolls across the screen.
hehehehehehehehehehehehehehhe
Fire an brimstone… fire an brimstone… yadda yadda yaddaTell me something I don’t know.
I totally agree with the person who says that Immanuel needs to move on. I am a member of IBC, and will remain that. When I joined this fellowsip of Christians I didn’t join Terry Fox…I joined Immanuel Church. I am saddened by the recent turn of events within my church, believe that Bro. Terry’s resignation was necessary, and am ready to move on for the cause of Christ. I feel like a victim. On another note, I am blown away at the lack of integrity evident on this blog. Surely those of you who spew venom are just little people who need a platform that doesn’t require a face. Sad commentary. I hope that some day you come to the realization that this world is nothing without a personal relationship with JC. I can hear the mocking now…..save it. I’ve already heard it. LOL
TM, the Church Lady. Isn’t she precious?
…ok Dennis..now that makes me laugh. Believe me, I am NOT precious. I’m just like you~ a mean, quick wit! Serious. I’m not precious. LOL And I watched SNL too!
Hey Passin Thru,
….keep going.
“The only thing different between sinners and saints….one is forgiven and the other one ain’t”George Jones
TM- if I ever get so weak that I decide never to think for myself, maybe, then maybe, I’ll think you are on to something. While I am still cooking, baby, I think you are brainwashed in a cult-ish sort of way. Denial is a hard spot for any of us to be in, but, honey, you deny yourself the basic American privilege, that is to let others be – because here in America we exist under the beautiful Constition and nothing else. Oh, you will argue it was Christians who came here and started this country. Are these the same Christians that destroyed native americans, bought & sold other human beings, and wrote a Constitution because they knew that in order for them (Whites), or as Fred Sanford would say it “Y-T”, to get along differently than they did back in the homeland they would need a governing set of rules/values – such as all men are created equal – except for native americans, slaves, and women. Is this the historical perspective you attach your soul to?Prior to America could it be said that the Spanish Inquisition, and the Crusades were the way Christians – like you – operated? I thank George Burns that we have a constitution that prohibits your irrational groupthink from following its historical teachings.YOU ARE AN AMERICAN! Be proud of that. You can be a radical Christian anywhere on earth and only in America can you be who you are and no one is going to come and drag you through the streets. What scares me about you – is the same thing that has scared the shit out of centuries of other non-christians – if you kids could control the government – I would be dead….and you truly could justify it in the name of God. What great about America, us secularists will fight and die in wars so you and I can enjoy the freedoms of our country. None of this means anything to you. All that matters is God said to watch the 700Club and deny others their constitutional rights in the name of God.Remember the Boxer Rebellion? White Devils. Yes, those Chinese folks were referring to you. Just 107 years ago the Chinese slaughter white devil Christian missionaries for bringing their psychobabble into Beijing. THE US GOVERMENT HAD TO COME IN AND SAVE YOUR ASSES. AT LEAST THAT’S WHAT THE BOOKS I READ HAVE SAID. GOD NEVER SHOWED UP WITH A MIGHTY BREEZE AND SWEPT YOU ALL TO SAFETY. US SOLDIERS RISKED THEIR LIVES TO SAVE CHRISTIANS.
are we going for 600?eat my shorts
Kevin~ gladly.
in this new millenium it seems you Terry Tuggers have accomplished two things:1) you caught BTK through prayer.2) You got out the vote.Where are the miracles? What about preventing all the murders, the child abuse. I know you pray for that stuff but how is it that you can claim God’s help with BTK and the vote but you back away from God when you are unable to stop murder and abuse. LIAR, LIAR, you Brains on Fire.
TMPlease do explain my last comments. Why do only convenient prayers work? How about the tough ones? You can’t have it both ways – right? Gays cannot have it both ways – they love God and are happily gay. So – how can you have convenient prayers and then back away from God when the real painful shit happens?
Answer us please – from your own heart, not from your script.
Just because we ask God for something doesn’t mean He will “grant” our request. Sometimes the answer is no. Sometimes the free will He gives to us allows many of the bad things you’ve mentioned, ie. murder and child abuse. He’s not a Genie in a bottle.
I know…..keep going.
Passin Gas,
..so don’t claim that God solves the easy stuff. THE FUCKING DETECTIVES BUSTED BTK – not IBC. You kids lay claim to the easy stuff so you can sleep at night. If you applied LOGIC you would have to ownn up that GOD does not answer prayers. Then your whole little world would crumble and the secular society would cradle your infantile asses.Terry Fox is nuts. Case closed.
To pray v. To ask that the laws of the universe be suspended on behalf of a single petitioner, confessedly unworthy.-Ambrose Bierce-
uhhh, “..laws of the universe..”, Capt. Kirk said it, not Ambrose Beirce.
“Treat things divine with marked respect – don’t have anything to do with them.”Ambrose Bierce
“Terry Fox is nuts. Case closed.”……..Kevin
“Th..th..th..that’s all folk’s”Porky
Kevin:I don’t have to answer for the past sins of other Christians.I am responsible and must answer for all the deeds done in this body and for what I know God and HIS word requires of me.I have enough to answer for in my life, I don’t needs anyone else’s sins to answer for.You people think you’re the only ones who’ve ever been hurt by organized religion and “RELIGIOUS” people. You see, there is a vast difference between and REAL CHRISTIANS and a “RELIGIOUS” person.I’ve been hurt plenty by other Christians. God requires me to forgive them and keep my eyes on HIM. It’s a discipline and I have to practice it often.
All prayers are answered. Most of mine are “WAIT”, some are “NO” and some are “YES”. God cannot override FREE WILL. If it is your choice to jump off the top of a tall building, you are trying to defy an established law of God, the law of GRAVITY, then you pray and ask God to save you from going splat on the concrete, what kind of idiocy is that?What if you were to marry, have kids and during a family get-together in an outright evil rant, someone in your family molests one of your children, but you pray daily for God to protect your family from all evil and all harm?Is it God’s fault because HE did not answer your daily prayers or did the person, who committed the molestation, act on their own free will?
Kevin old boy….
The cops busted BTK,God answers prayers,and YOU’RE the one who’s nuts.
(hi Andy.)
RD:Terry Fox doesn’t tell me how to live. I don’t follow Terry Fox. He was just the messenger of God’s Good News for a while at Immanuel.I left Immanuel 4 years ago and didn’t attend church anywhere for 4 years because Terry Fox hurt me, but I had to forgive him and move forward. I was sick of organized religion and how worldly the church had become, but God has given me responsibilities to others because we are our brother’s keepers and I was letting my hurt, anger and bad attitude stand in the way of doing what God wanted me to do, so I repented and went back to Immanuel at the start of 2006.God’s Word tells me how to live because I read it, memorize it and work and pray very hard to apply it to my daily life.
“it’s what you do and how loving and kind you are to others that will win me over to Christianity.”
What exactly does one have to do to win you over to a Personal relationship to Jesus Christ?Do we have to agree with your opinions that are against God’s Word? Anyone having a different opinion than yours based on God’s Word is a hatemonger? I don’t know what bible you’ve been reading, but it isn’t the HOLY BIBLE.”TM quotes. And quotes. And rants quotes, screaming the love of Jesus.”That’s right RD! I quote the Bible, God’s Word, because it is HIS word that proclaims the love of Jesus and the forgiveness of sin.I love you people enough to keep quoting it.
Great- Go away!!
gster:No one is addressing you!I was addressing RD.Stick around, this is good for you to read.
Sure! Hold your breath and I’ll be right back. OK?
TM-your point about letting hurt and anger stand in the way of doing God’s work was very well made, it’s something I struggle with often too.
It seems to me in my humble, and often wrong opinion that many people who post here have had a run in with organized religion and have really been burned. I can understand that, any organization that has people involved in it is going to screw up, whether it’s a church, a country, anything. Just because something has screw ups in it’s history doesn’t mean you abandon it. We don’t abandon the United States because of it’s history of slavery, racism, removal of native tribes, and so on. We believe that we can make this nation better if we work hard enough. Surely that’s why so many of you spend so much time blogging.
I only implore you to approach Christianity in that same sort of light. People hijack it for their own purposes quiet often, and screw it up, but that doesn’t change the original message.
I’m not such a brilliant, wonderful writer that I think that I’m going to change the world through one blog, and that everyone that posts here is magically going to become Christians, I only ask some of you to open your minds a little bit, lay aside some the hate and try to talk. Maybe we’ll all discover we’re not that different? (this is turning into a beatles song or something. so I’ll stop.)
“Anyone having a different opinion than yours based on God’s Word is a hatemonger?”Where did I use the word “hatemonger?” I assure you, I haven’t. Where have I said I hate? You’re attributing something to me that is far from the truth. Perhaps you should go back and read my posts on this thread. The only one you’ll see that even comes close to “hate” was directed to the Nathan-troll, and that was said in anger and in defense of another poster.
“Do we have to agree with your opinions that are against God’s Word?”
No, you don’t. But you do expect me to accept God’s Word, and there’s a difference between disagreeing and, as you termed it, legislating. I again repeat that the 1st Ammendment is clear on religion.
“What exactly does one have to do to win you over to a Personal relationship to Jesus Christ?”
I believe I already answered that, but maybe you missed reading it. I wrote, “… it’s what you do and how loving and kind you are to others that will win me over to Christianity.”
TM, why is this so important to you? You don’t know me, wouldn’t know me if we passed each other on the street, yet you are concerned about my soul. To ease your mind, my soul is fine. My morals are fine. My spiritual life is fine.
If you feel you need God’s Word to be a better person, that’s okay with me. If it makes you a better person, that’s great. A person’s religion and faith are theirs alone to follow, but it should not be used to make a law that discriminates. I truly believe Jesus would agree.
My interpretation of the Bible is not the same as yours in some cases. The issue of homosexuality is one of them. I feel there’s hypocricy afoot when it comes to that.
TM: “What exactly does one have to do to win you over to a Personal relationship to Jesus Christ?”That’s the magic word: “Personal.” I don’t have to meddle in your own “personal” relationship, as I don’t want you in mine. Especially with that street corner peddler attitude of yours. Now let me have a one-to-one talk with His Mother!
TM, the whole problem is that atmosphere of us against them.That’s not a Christian virtue.Let me come back with some more plagiarized stuff.BTW, for the ‘why’ family who posted above, I’ve been pasting this same stuff from the same author ever since I found this site.The regulars all know it’s a cut and paste, and I do not pretend to be the author of any of it.
TM, I personally don’t want to influence your spiritual journey.My hat’s off to your for attempting to live a spiritual life.However misguided you may be at times.
Author: Alice A Bailey.
A Challenge
I challenge the thinkers of the world to drop their sectarianism, their nationalism, and their partisanships, and in the spirit of brotherhood to work in their particular nation, regarding it as integral part of a great federation of nations, – a federation that now exists on the inner side, but waits for the activity of the world thinkers to bring it to materialisation on the outer side. I charge them to work in the cause of religion, and in the field of that particular religion in which they, by an accident of birth or choice, are interested, regarding each religion as part of the great world religion. They must look upon the activities of their group, society or organisation, as demanding their help, just in so far, as the principles on which they are founded, and the techniques which they employ, serve the general good, and develop the realisation of Brotherhood.
I ask you to drop your antagonisms and your antipathies, your hatreds and your racial differences, and to attempt to think in terms of the one family, the one life, and the one humanity. I would remind you that hatred and separateness have brought humanity to the present condition. I would add to that reminder, however, the fact that there is in the world today a large enough number of liberated men, to produce a change in the attitudes of mankind and in public opinion, if they measure up by an act of the will, to what they know and believe.
I challenge you also to make sacrifices; to give yourself and your time, and your money, and your interest, to carry these ideas to those around you, in your own environment, and to the group in which you find yourself, thus awakening your associates. I call you to a united effort to inculcate anew the ideas of brotherhood and of unity. I ask you to recognise your fellow workers in all the groups and to strengthen their hands. I ask you to seal your lips to words of hatred and of criticism, and to talk in terms of brotherhood and of group relationships. I beg of you to see to it that every day is for you a new day, in which you face new opportunity. Lose sight of your own affairs, your petty sorrows, worries and suspicions, in the urgency of the task to be done, and spread the cult of unity, of love and of harmlessness.
I also ask you to sever connection with all groups which are seeking to destroy and to attack, no matter how sincere their motive. Range yourself on the side of the workers for constructive ends, who are fighting no other groups or organisations, and who have eliminated the world “anti” out of their vocabulary. Stand on the side of those who are silently and steadily building for the new order – an order which is founded on love, which builds under the impulse of brotherhood, and which possesses a realisation of brotherhood, which is based on the knowledge that we are, each and all, no matter what our race, the children of the One Father, and who have come to the realisation that the old ways of working must go, and the newer methods must be given a chance.
If you cannot yourself teach or preach or write, give of your thought and of your money, so that others can. Give of your hours and minutes of leisure, so as to set others free to serve the Plan; give of your money, so that the work of those associated with the New Group of World Servers may go forward with rapidity. Much time you waste on non-essentials. Many of you give little or nothing of time. The same is the case with money. Give as never before, and so make the physical aspects of the work possible. Some give of their very need, and the power they thereby release is great. Those on the inner side are grateful for the giving by those who can give only at great personal cost. Others give of what they can spare, and only when it needs no sacrifice to give. Let that condition also end, and give to the limit, with justice and understanding, so that the age of love and light may be more rapidly ushered in. I care not where or to whom you give, only that you give, – little if you have but little of time and money, much if you have much. Work and give, love and think and aid those groups who are building and not destroying, loving and not attacking, lifting and not tearing down.
I challenge you above all to a deeper life, and I implore you for the sake of your fellow men to strengthen your contact with your own soul, so that you will have done your share in making revelation possible; so that you will have served your part in bringing in the light, and will therefore be in a position to take advantage of that new light and new information, and so be better able to point the way and clear the path for the bewildered seeker at that time. Those who are not ready for the coming events, will be blinded by the emerging light, and bewildered by the revealing wonder; they will be swept by the living breath of God, and it is to you that we look to fit them for the event.
“TM, why is this so important to you? You don’t know me, wouldn’t know me if we passed each other on the street, yet you are concerned about my soul. To ease your mind, my soul is fine. My morals are fine. My spiritual life is fine.”RD:I don’t know you, but I am reaching out to you with the love of Christ for the sake of your soul’s eternal destiny.Have you ever, at any point in your life, prayed a prayer acknowledging you have sinned against God, confessing those sins to God, repented/turned away from those sins and asked God for forgiveness for your sins?1st John 1:9 “If we confess our sins, HE is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness”.This IS the message of GOD’s great love for our fellow man, to reach out in love, kindness and encouragement.Why is this so offensive to so many of you on this blog?It’s a message of hope and God’s great love for all of humanity for all eternity.
It is not offensive to me, as you can see in the above challenge.
But here’s the kicker(s):aid those groups who are building and not destroying, loving and not attacking, lifting and not tearing down.
founded on love, which builds under the impulse of brotherhood, and which possesses a realisation of brotherhood, which is based on the knowledge that we are, each and all, no matter what our race, the children of the One Father
I also ask you to sever connection with all groups which are seeking to destroy and to attack, no matter how sincere their motive.
to attempt to think in terms of the one family, the one life, and the one humanity.
MOST major religions seek to teach that their particular faith is the one and only true faith with the one and only true God.If you were born in Iran, you would truly believe the same from their perspective.Would you not?If you were born there, and came to believe that, would you truly be evil, through the place and circumstances that you were born into?Or would you be just another poor innocent child, at the mercy of those caring for you and teaching you?
Tracy- thanks for leading me to this place. I often post on the kansas.com message boards too.
I find it comical that Terry Fox will be preaching at an amusement park…that’s exactly what he is…a circus act.
You’re welcome mom.I’ve been to the message boards, looked around and came right back here.
“I would remind you that hatred and separateness have brought humanity to the present condition.”……..Alice A Bailey
How were you brought here by me?
Your post made me aware of this board…in the SJ blog.Or are you someone else?
“Have you ever, at any point in your life, prayed a prayer acknowledging you have sinned against God, confessing those sins to God, repented/turned away from those sins and asked God for forgiveness for your sins?”
Um, TM, either you’re reading impaired or you have a short memory.
I was born and raised Catholic. I think that should answer your question as to whether I’ve confessed my sins to God and asked for forgiveness.
Now a question for you: Were you born into a Christian family?
TM-I have a personal relationship with God. I don’t go to church. I don’t read the bible. I love God and that is all I have to say on my spirituality. I would not have a problem with you and your beliefs except for your constant incessant nagging about your knowing the word of God and your disrespectful admonishments to homosexuals by addressing them as sinners. Would you like to be addressed as a sinner? Would you like your neighbor to teach his children that you are a sinner, istead of a nice neighbor and children, in America, we respect peoples privacy, their religion, and their Campfires of Worship.
What is it about the gays that sets them so far apart from any other group whom you feel are sinners. If we have a blog about divorcees would you be on it telling divorced people they are going to hell? And just how is it that a divorced person can get into heaven? Divorces aren’t generally reversed. Are they doomed to hell? OR – can they go to your church and read your bible and mutter a few guilty feelings to Jesus’ only Clown and get absolved? AND- shouldn’t they be banned from remarrying? I mean, homosexuals aren’t aloud to marry, why would a divorced person be allowed to marry? Isn’t divorce the BIGGEST threat to marriage and the traditional family? Shouldn’t straight folks be told they only get one chance?Does anyone want to predict what TM’s answer will be?
Kevin,
TM doesn’t seem to answer questions, except for with another question. Perhaps she’s gone to pray for answers.
It seems that it’s much easier to pray than to think.
Kevin: Allow me to explain. Christianity teaches that we all fall short of God’s standard. We are therefore ALL sinners and thus condemned.
The good news is that Christ’s death on the cross paid the penalty for our sin. All a person has to do is to accept Christ’s offer of salvation. When a person accepts Christ as their personal savior, they are said to be “born again”.
So if a Christian tells you they are not a sinner, well they just plain wrong.
RD: I find prayer much more difficult than just merely thinking.
“If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrightousness.If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.” 1John 1:8-10
When you become a Christian you don’t stop sinning……..whoever told you that is crazy. We all sin~ the difference is forgiveness, and where you plan to spend eternity.
I am not able to further participate with this thread. The memory buffer of my webtv will not accomodate the size! Clearly this issue is not going away.It is no use replying to me because I am posting this from a computer I won’t have access to again for awhile.
Earlier, I offered to help Immanuel get this issue aired out so it could move on. I invited members of Immanuel to email me and share their stories.
I wanted to report that I AM in receit of email from within the church itself. Out of respect for my source I will not share the contents of that email here. I am fairly confident that my “source” will see this. I want to thank whoever that person is for their trust and confidence in me. I hope that person emails me again with further information or some indication of how much of that information they want me to air publicly. As I said, my ability to post this particular thread is impaired. But I can bring this topic to the open thread if that is the wish of my source.
I’ll just say here that based on my source from inside the church there is as most of us suspect a great deal more to this story than is publicly known. From what I now know Immanuel is fortunate to be rid of Terry Fox and I would say that Fox’s new church is little more than a blatant and petty attack on Immanuel. I think Immanuel will be better in the end though. From what I have learned it sounds as though Fox is riding for a hard fall and he will not get to take Immanuel for the ride.
I welcome furhter informative emails from those who can more fully flesh out this story. Please know as I hope I showed above that I will treat your information with the utmost respect and discretion.
This is the best of what blogging is about. Bloggers can find and share the news that others can only speculate about.
I’m not condemning the person or persons who have contacted JR, but I just wanted make it clear that it wasn’t me. I only write this because I have made statements on this blog as a member of Immanuel, and many people will automatically assume that it was me that is the ‘informent’.
Once again, not condemning the person that did, I just wanted to say that it wasn’t me.
Since I’m still at a computer….
My source is anonymous. I would have kept it that way whether they asked me to or not.
The email it comes to me under is a generic one for the church itself.
I am guessing here, but I do not think that source has posted here. Until I have further information from that source I won’t (can’t) comment beyond my last post.
JR,
Thanks for letting us know that you’ve been contacted. Thanks, too, for honoring this person’s wishes.
JB,
I felt pretty sure it wasn’t you, but appreciate that you spoke up to say it wasn’t. It helps when things are straight in peoples’ minds so they don’t attribute something (good or bad) to the wrong person.
Question about sin? Is the action a sin, or is the thought a sin? Or both?
If a person states they are a homosexual but do not have sex are they sinning? Or, are sexual thought sinful?
And, if sexual thoughts are sinful, then why not go all the way and have sex?
Are heterosexuals bound by this same sin structure – is it sinful to lust for your wife? Is it sinful to imagine having sex with another person?
Where is the line drawn? How is anyone, as sexual animals, able to remain sinless if they have random sexual thoughts?
Masturbation? Okay for married folk? What about straight folk?
Is this where having a Nun burn a penis with a candle comes into play?
I am actually trying not to mock, but it seems to me that there probably are only very few people who could line up at the Heavens gate for not having sexual sin.
Oh, tell me – for all the Catholic dudes who live in the Vatican, are we to believe they do not masturbate? The new Pope actually spoke out about how sinful masturbation is.Biologically speaking, retention of sperm/semen does send a signal that a release needs to happen, just as it does for urine, etc.Is there anyone on blog who has been abstinent from masturbation? I seriously would like to know what happens biologically, and what do you do with those incoming fire surges that feel oh so good.How does this tie in to Terry Fox? If he talks the talk he surely walks the walk. Right?
Kevin: It is my understanding as a Christian that sexual sin is no different than other sins in God’s eyes. Unless you are a Christian, you may not recognize sin when you see it. The Bible (God’s word) is given to us to give us a basis to live a good life and also to recognize sin so that we can avoid it.
But as fallen human beings, we will never be able to avoid sin completely. We are all sinners. Thus the need for a savior.
No matter what a person has done in the past, or in the future, they can stand before God justified because of the blood of Christ, simply by accepting Him as their savior. When you take that step, the Holy Spirit will come to dwell in your heart and assist you in determining right from wrong.
It probably sounds too simple, too easy. But it is true because it is so stated in the Bible. It is a gift from God, open to all.
(This is the evangelical Christian view. If I have mistated or omitted anything important, feel free to correct me)
OK, try to open your minds a little. How would you live your life if there was NO afterlife? What if heaven and hell don’t exist and when you die, you simply no longer exist? Do you think it would