In the wake of the Rev. Terry Fox’s resignation, some words to ponder: "Instead of focusing on anti-gay marriage, we wish Terry Fox would spend more time campaigning against the real threats to marriage, such as infidelity, abuse, poverty and divorce," Thomas Witt of Equality Kansas told The Eagle.
These are by far the most important threats to traditional marriage today.
Posted by Randy Scholfield
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375 Comments
Hmmmmmm
Joe Wright resigns his pulpit some weeks ago.
And now his partner in slime does the same.
Perhaps they are preparing a pulpit that might gain the attention of the IRS?
They do the two of them have a radio show that is now heard nationwide. I wonder if that platform is more impotant to them then the pulpit.
You CAN express your “support” their “Answering the Call” radio show. You can vote with your dollars. Last I knew the sponsors for that bit of radio were Wendy’s, Bosley Tire, Ryan’s Steakhouse (east location only) and Specs Optical.
Moving away from the church allows Fox to focus on his political ambitions. He’s become disappointed with the fall of the religious reich and wants to revitilize, what he views, as the next Christian Coalition with himself at it’s head. To nobody’s surprise his Phelp’s like positions about slaughtering gays in gas chambers and executing liberals for treason will make him sound more like the next Hitler than anything else.
Doug:”To nobody’s surprise his Phelp’s like positions about slaughtering gays in gas chambers and executing liberals for treason will make him sound more like the next Hitler than anything else.”
Are you serious? That is the most assinine thing I’ve read on here in a while. I don’t know what you have been reading or who you have been listening to, but that was irresponsible and stupid.
JR,Have you listened to the show? I haven’t, but the fact that you hate it so much is a pretty good gauge for me to think that it’s probably a good show.
Oh, and thanks for the list of sponsors. I already frequent a few of them and I’ll make an effort to visit the others as well.
YesYouAjoke, while you’re there, see if there’s any libs telling Nathan what he can eat.
He express he may one day return to being a Kansas Pastor. Take heart Terry…. Philps can not live forever! The Devil can always use a good second in command.
It is easy to attack and name call people you don’t agree with. That seems to be the main focus of this blog. If most of us were asked it we think everyone should be able to freely express themselves, we would say yes. However, when it comes to having someone express themselves that is not in line with our views we attack and name call. Terry Fox is against the state allowing homosexual partners to marry. Mr. Phelps thinks they cannot repent from sin and are condemn to hell. I see a vast difference. Yet, time after time the implication is they are from the same cloth. Mr. Phelps does not even agree with that, or why does his group picket Immanual Baptist.
The devil wears a bracelet that says “What would terry, joe and fred do?”
“I see a vast difference.”
heheheheheheheh
shades of gray, or perhaps variations of black?
The differences are so small as to be unnoticable.
Terry, joe and fred differ only by degree, not by substance.
So maybe darrell duncecap can answer Thomas Witt’s questions?
When will your churches actually deal with the REAL threats to marriage instead of using the political grandstanding of a bunch of fanatical nut cases to make the collection plate fat?
Please answer Thomas’ questions before you blindly defend the ayatollahs terry, joe and fred and their iron fisted use of the kansas taliban.
More from Red State Rabble.Off topic, but I’m just glad Pat is back from vacation.Well, kind of on topic–the religeous right.
Brad Patzer to Return to his Own Private Idaho?RSR can’t confirm this story yet, but we’re hearing that Brad Patzer, the right-winger who unsuccessfully sought to inherit his mother-in-law’s seat on the state school board, resigned his teaching job at Caney Valley High School last Friday and is returning to the Republic of Idaho.
Patzer, who is Iris Van Meter’s son-in-law, moved to Kansas just before announcing his candidacy for the District 9 board seat.
If what we’re hearing proves true it would demonstrate a touching loyalty to the Kansas school kids he claimed he wanted to help — by teaching them the so-called controversy over evolution but denying them access to unbiased information on preventing unwanted pregnancies and sexually transmitted disease.
During what we like to think will be his brief but passionate fling with Kansas education issues, Patzer endeared himself to many RSR readers when he informed us that he’d, “like the idea of knowing when somebody is going to be teaching my son or daughter how to put a condom on a banana.”
If any of our readers can confirm this rumor, please let us know.
We’ll kind of miss ol’ Brad.
And a hearty good morning, farm girl, you happy homo!How dare you prosper and be happy in our homophobic state.Kind of funny that even though the asholes got their way with the marriage ammendment, THEY ARE STILL AS MISERABLE AS EVER!
Thank you lord for making me not feel guilty.I know I’m not perfect.
Darrell, I don’t need to attack anyone or call names.Seems the folks you’re defending are offended and angry all the time without my help.
The difference is that Terry Fox and Joe Wright believe that practicing homosexual acts is a sin, like murder, coventness, lieing, stealing, etc. They do not think the state should endorse sinful activity. They do believe that all can be forgiven of their sin, accept Christ’s sacrifice and enter the kingdom of heaven. Mr. Phelps on the other hand does not believe that Christ’s death on the cross was enough to atone for a homosexual’s sin. This is a vast difference. One is to love the person, but hate the sin, the other is to hate. In simple terms my children don’t always please me in their actions. I still love my kids but I don’t like their actions.
What in the world is the state doing making laws based on iterpretations of scripture?
This is a free country of Americans, not just Christians.
I listen to the show every Sunday.
Last week they said that “tolerance” is the most dangerous word in America. Amen to that, brother!
We’ve got to stop the Hollyweird liberals from imposing their morality on our society.
Of course, we also have to allow the free market to work unfettered.
So that means watch all the slimy crap on FOX you want but then watch FOX News and complain about it . . .
“The difference is that Terry Fox and Joe Wright believe that practicing homosexual acts is a sin, like murder, coventness, lieing, stealing, etc”
There ya have it folks, in black and white.
Thank you darrell for your refreshing honesty.
Terry and Joe, and their little dogs too, put my loving girlfriend and I…
in the same catagory as the BTK killer.
In the same catagory as that theif ken lay.
In the same catagory as the liar in chief who killed 2500+ americans with his lies to war.
Yep. Terry, joe, fred and now DARRELL think our love is as evil as the killing of btk, the stealing of ken lay, and the lying of george bush.
heheheh. And that makes YOU four horsemen of hate different from phelps…how?
ROFLMQAO!!!!!!!!! HEE HEE HEE HEEhahahahahahahaha, whooo hoooooo!!!
Be afraid of me, I’m the same as btk according to the religious nut cases!!!!!!!!!!!!
And you wanna let them make laws according to THEIR interpretation of god?
Heheh. Kansas…as wingnutty as you think!
Please darrell, keep explaining while I get more coffee!!!!!!!
Nice hair splitting there, DD.
How many divorced people have laws passed against them–”For I tell you that if a man divorce his wife and marry another, he commits adultery.”
Why did we repeal the slavery when Paul says clearly that “a slave should obey his master.”
We not talking about forgiveness. What we’re talking about is the religious right (Fox) using cultural hatred of homosexuality to legally discriminate against them.
It’s part of a larger pattern to gain power by defining your group against an “enemy.” Hitler used the Jews. McCarthy used communists. Communists use capitalist roaders. And today we have the Bushistas fear-mongering against terrorists.
It’s part of a historical pattern that is plain as day.
Hate the sin, love the person. I so adore Hitler, Stalin, and Kim Jong-Il. I just hate their murderous bent. Indeed!
So Darrell, unless you are part of the hooked on phonics reading and comprehension challenged right wing boys here…
can you read?
Please answer Thomas’ questions about how your church is dealing with the REAL threats to marriage?
I dont need anymore hair splitting on the biblical views of terry, joe and fred. They only differ to a connisour of hate like you.
To the rest of us? shades of the same gray.
Please answer the questions of Thomas or leave the field like the coward and bigot you are.
But anything that gets Terry Fox out of the pulpit is a good thing.
Maybe the Lord really does work in mysterious ways . . .
…and btw, did anyone notice that the biggest news story of the day, the defeat of joementum, now known as joeloser, goes without a thread today?
Wanna bet the defeat of cynthia mckinney gets a thread before darling joe gets a farewell here?
Did you all have to get values boy’s permission to have a thead on joeloser? Is that the delay?
OR did he just wanna defend the ayatollah terry for a while?
We see who runs this shop.
No further explanation is needed, all is sin, all will separate you from God. The good news is that all can be forgiven if they repent and accept Jesus’s sacrifice. I don’t believe I indicated I was afraid of you.
I always wonder, why Gomorrah never quite attained the fame as her sister city in modern lingo.
I’m still waiting for the real stories about dead boys, live girls, and hammered kittens…..
“No further explanation is needed, all is sin, all will separate you from God.”
So why no constitutional amendments on YOUR sins? WHY no constitutional amendment on divorce? On adultry? On Coveting?
heheh. your hipocrisy is showing darrell duncecap. Your posts prove the kansas taliban with its love of the kansas ayatollahs is alive and well.
I AM afraid of you and yours!
But thanks for playing. We are amused, and we do encourage you to try again.
Darrell..
“They do not think the state should endorse sinful activity.”
The error of modern Evangelical Christianity – along with the historic faults of the Roman Catholic church (inquisition etc) is that their attitudes and actions go beyond the bible’s borders. The bible nowhere says that God’s people, the church, should work to dominate and control the nation they live in.
This may have been true in the Old Testament – certainly God called Israel as a political entity to run itself as a theocracy. Nevertheless when Christ came he instituted a “New Covenant” whereby God’s people would not be determined by racial background, but by faith in Christ and obedience to God.
The way that God changes the world is through the message of the gospel proclaimed in the church – thus the group of believers becomes the place where people are changed. By opting to politically change the government, modern evangelicals are actually disobeying God the King.
Paul makes it clear in the epistle of 1 Corinthians, chapter 5, that a clear line exists between the church and “the world”, to the point where sins that require immediate action within the church require no action at all when committed by those in the world.
Yes God is king and he is Lord over all creation – but he has chosen to change the world through his people within the structure he chosen… the church. As soon as Christians begin to agitate for moral and ethical change outside the church, they go where God has not commanded them to go.
In my experience, doing this very thing creates a hostile environment, where non-believers are separated from the true love of Christ by the judgemental attitude of His messengers.
So are Christains the only group that are not allowed to express their views in the political arena. I don’t believe any one was forced to vote for the amendment. The voters did vote as they have everywhere they have been allowed to vote not to allow homosexual marriage. I don’t think we every voted not to allow homosexuals.
WASHINGTON (CNN) — Sixty percent of Americans oppose the U.S. war in Iraq, the highest number since polling on the subject began with the commencement of the war in March 2003, according to poll results and trends released Wednesday.
And a majority of poll respondents said they would support the withdrawal of at least some U.S. troops by the end of the year, according to results from the Opinion Research Corporation poll conducted last week on behalf of CNN. The corporation polled 1,047 adult Americans by telephone.
According to trends, the number of poll respondents who said they did not support the Iraq war has steadily risen as the war stretched into a second and then a third year. In the most recent poll, 36 percent said they were in favor of the war — half of the peak of 72 percent who said they were in favor of the war as it began.
Sixty-one percent, however, said they believed at least some U.S. troops should be withdrawn from Iraq by the end of the year.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/08/09/iraq.poll/index.html
NoJoCo : “JR Have you listened to the show?”
“Answering the call”?
I almost never miss it!It helps me with my chore routine. Each week when Joe and Terry are on, it is a reminder for me that it is time to clean my bathroom. I listen to Joe and Terry while I clean my toilet. Seems appropo somehow.
Oh and I’m glad to provide the list of sponsors for “stuff to clean your toilet by”. Good you are picking up for me with them NoJoCo. I don’t darken their door anymore.
so why are we not following the will of the people on iraq?
hee hee hee hee
and the latest pew polls show a MAJORITY of americans now approve of civil unions.
I wonder if in the next election the taliban and the ayatollahs terry joe and fred will be as gracious in defeat as they were in victory?
heheheh. I know I will be as gracious to them as they were to me and mine!!!
Be careful what you create. Paybacks are such a bitch….
http://journal.davidbyrne.com/2006/08/american_madras.html
Just found this sounds like the movement is evolving:
Naturally, the kids being so young, there is no questioning of any kind — they simply accept what grownups Fischer and the others say — they get pumped up, agitated, they memorize right wing and Jesus slogans and shout them back obediently. They become part of a support group — a warm, safe, comfortable feeling for anyone, for any social animal, for you and me. No one strays or gets out of line even the slightest bit. (More on peer pressure later.)
There were some perfect sound bites — at one point Pastor Fischer instructs the little ones that they should be willing to die for Christ, and the little ones obediently agree. She may even use the word martyr, which has a shocking echo in the Middle East. I can see future suicide bombers for Jesus — the next step will be learning to fly planes into buildings. Of course, the grownups would say, “Oh no, we’re not like them” — but they admit that the principal difference is simply that “We’re right.”
Oh and kansassam, do you see now, via darrell and nojoco and ruby and sts, why, when I am being chased with a baseball bat, I dont really care WHAT stripe the christian is who is holding it?
The distinctions between you and them are great, but when one is on the receiving end of their baseball bat of “love” it is a little hard to see the nuances. All I see is good christian hatred from them. Your loving comments cant be heard over their taliban ranting.
I guess christian is as christian does. And I noticed darrell got in the “persecuted majority” whine about christians being not allowed to express their opinions.
Oh, please darrell, express your oh so christian principles in the political arean. Be very loud and very clear. I want ALL the voters to hear and see clearly who and what you and yours are.
I find indeed that the truth will set us free, so continue to preach your brand of truth. heheheheheheh
It is always good to see the evil coming towards us.
AND I NOTICE NOT ONE OF YOU IS ANSWERING THOMAS WITT’S QUESTIONS?
Wassa matter? Scared, or just stupid.
answer the damn question
…tap, tap, tap, tap….
and while we are waiting for an answer on Thomas’ question….
Is anyone else wondering why people with so many quick and pat answers cant address the real issue?
Maybe a repeat of his question here would help the reading and comprehension challenged crowd.
“”Instead of focusing on anti-gay marriage, we wish Terry Fox would spend more time campaigning against the real threats to marriage, such as infidelity, abuse, poverty and divorce.”
So, wanna comment on the good kansas christian response to the REAL threats to marriage?
Or do you just wanna whine loud and hard from meme land?
Darrell…
Being a devout Christian, I will always express my opinions on morality, as well as social issues such as homelessness.
Marriage is a church issue and should be decided by each church body.. it is not up to the state to determine what is and what isn’t “sin”.
Gee sam, I dont see them responding to you either.
Why is that? Are they afraid of you and your loving words?
Or do they only have a loop of platitudes to spout? No real thoughts? Cant actually have a discussion instead of throwing out the memes?
Sorry sam. I see they dont respect you either.
KFG..Hardly anyone does…… my views are a little out of the mainstream I suspect.. but I still think I’m right…
I see that since I have an opinion different than you I should be suject to the name calling routine. I am sure that proves your point. As to what does our church do for the “real threats to marriage” I invite you to come and see.
Darrell – where is your church?
A deep distrust of one’s own reactions to life and circumstances, when such reactions awaken and call forth criticism, separativeness or pride, is of value.The qualities enumerated above are definitely breeders of sin. Ponder on this.
If a disciple can free himself from these characteristics, he is well on the way to the relinquishing and the dissipation of all sin.I am choosing my words with care in an effort to get your attention.
Julie,
I attend Immanual Baptist, which is located on south Topeka in Wichita.
Oh so what darrell’s church is doing is super double secret probation to those of us outside the church walls?
hehehehehehehehehehehehehehhe
What about letting your light shine? Hey darrell, this is YOUR opportunity to let your church and what it is DOING to dave marriage be a beacon to the unenlightened.
You have an opportunity to express your views here in a political forum. To tell us all how you are defending traditional marriage, nuturing families, and working on the sins of divorce, adultry, coveting thy neighbor’s wife, etc.
You have a GREAT opportunity here to inform the unwashed masses about the glory your church gives to god and how you are addressing, in practical ways, the real challenges of family and marriage.
And you chose to say “come inside and see” ? WTF? Do you not know what your church is doing? Why is it a secret? Is it because you really arent doing anything but throwing crap in the moneky house?
ROLLING WITH LAUGHTER. Howling, ROFLMQAO, wooo hoo!!! hee hee hee hee.
Gee, it couldnt be that you are NOT DOING ANYTHING but spreading hate and lies?
You have nothing to say when you DO get the opportunity to express the TRUTH about your church?
hehehehehehehehehehehehheh
Why do you want us inside the church to hear the super double secret probation things you do to REALLY save families and marriage?
hgehehehehehehe. Why? Just to drop some money in the offering plate?
HEE HEE HEE HEE! We see your real agenda.
YOU wont say anything in response to thomas because you arent DOING the things to really save marriage.
You are indeed doing things to fill the collection plate. Just as I surmised.
Sam, ya outta come over to our side. At least we respond to you and acknowledge you. Your own brothers in christ dont seem to be as able to deal with the truth as you are.
Jesus wept.
KFG – I do know that Immanuel preaches on why you should go to church and raise your family in godliness. My parents attend Immanuel and my mom gave me and MM a tape of a sermon on the above. So we’re heathens because we beleive in Jesus Christ as our personal savior but we currently don’t go to church.oh well, I’ll explain myself on judgement day and not before.
I guess I assumed if people really wanted to know they would come. Are you telling me that if I detailed the programs and services we have in place you would actually attend?
Darrell – I think with the short attention spans in today’s society that knowing that if you attend church service on August 13, 2006 you’ll hear a sermon on “Saving your marriage” or “The myth of the Davinci Code” rather than Come hear the word of the Lord.We as society want to know what we’re getting into, especially if we’re looking for a church home – many people will visit a church once before forming a lasting impression, twice if the church is lucky. We want to know what the sermon is on, we want fresh coffee and friendly people. We don’t want to be unpleasantly surprised with a study of the book of Numbers and standoffish people.
Why would you want me there?
No, under no circumstance would I ever set foot in your church.
So that makes your good works super double secret?
heheheheheheheheh
hee heee heee hee hee heeeeeeeee
Ya.
You arent doing anything.
That is why you refuse to post it.
Or are you just waiting for terry to tell you what to say? heheh wassa matter, cant get the ayatollah on the phone t tell you what to think?
But please, continue to insist that I attend. Continue to insist that my refusal to attend means your good works should be secret.
hee hee hee. Your secrecy is giving me SO MANY REASONS to attend, I cant take them all in.
Sarcasm off.
hee hee hee hee
What an empty self righteous windbag.
Prove me wrong.
standoffish people
how about the overt haters?
Yeah, that is JUST where I want to spend my time. Where hate is the public message and good works are secret.
Sounds like a typical church to me.
Prove me wrong jackass.
hee hee hee hee
and I see that STILL none of the holy rollers are answering Thomas’ questions.
what is so hard about that? shouldnt that be the EASIEST thing you do today?
heheheheh. Must be trying to FABRICATE an answer, since it is taking so long to respond to such a SIMPLE question.
It is not my responsibility to prove you wrong. If there is no way you will set foot in our church I am not sure what you are looking for. What we do is far from secret, it is available for everyone. I think it would be great if you came, then you could at least say you have some basis for your comments against us, or maybe find out we aren’t quite as evil as you think.
“I am not sure what you are looking for.”
Real slow for ya darrell. I know how the reading and comprehension deficient are.
Please. Answer. Thomas Witt’s. Question.
Do you need that made more simple?
The longer you stall, the more we see, you are waiting for the ayatollah to give you the answer and you cant get him on the phone.
Or…
You dont have an answer so you cant give one. YOUR CHURCH DOES NOTHING to address the real problems facing family and marriage.
I guess you must feel weak and impotent in the face of that, so you just kick the queers.
If you cant refute that with some facts, it will stand.
heheheheh.
methinks darrell is like a dog who chases cars. he doesnt know what to do when he catches one.
For all your whining and sniveling about not being able to express your christian self in a public forum,
why do you refuse to express the truth when you DO HAVE a forum?
Cowardice, or just bluffing?
And where are the other right wing hate mongers to set the record straight (heheh so to speak) about how christians are addressing the REAL issues facing family and marriage?
Where are the big mouths? Where is hank, and nathan, and lrb and nojoco and outie and heckler and ruby and sts and the other holy rollers?
Is it darrell’s day to be the designated shill? Come on, some of you other smarty holy rollers ought to be able to answer that question easily?
OR is is a big secret that ALL the churches refuse to share?
Come on, here is your chance in a public political forum.
Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it.
And where is values boy on the subject? WHERE are the senior WE editors who kiss his ass?
heheheheheheheheheheheh
Well darrel, I am a christian.IMHO, the whole damned thing is distorted and so far away from Christ’s REAL intent and motives.I don’t think you and yours are evil, just 2000 yrs of being misguided have gotten us to this point.I would also add that seperateness, pride, and hatred have brought humanity to the present condition. Those three things should not be part of our doctrine.As Christians, loving tolerance should be our code.
I believe that this is why ksfrmgirl often posts the two words: Jesus wept.
The first questions people ask when a minister resigns abruptly is: Who is he boffing? How much did he steal? Probably not the case here. A PK in my office building says the church probably told him, hey, we hired you to be our pastor, not a national figure. Decided on which one you want to do then let us know. Blessings on you which ever way you go.My only complaint is now he is free go get into all kinds of r/w foolishness. Unfortunately we haven’t heard the last of him. But I guess the Jim Bakers, et. al have to start somewhere.
..or end somewhere….
In response to the topic and everyone else,
(Brief note for KFG)I doubt it will stop you from your endless debate with yourself, but here you go:
“Instead of focusing on anti-gay marriage, we wish Terry Fox would spend more time campaigning against the real threats to marriage, such as infidelity, abuse, poverty and divorce,”
The very premise of this question is misleading and probably meant to be dishonest too.
Terry Fox, I assume, is probably close to many other pastors in the way a church is operated.
There are Sunday morning services, Sunday evening services, probably a Wednesday night service, Young Married bible study, Adults Bible study, Old couples Bible study, Singles group, Youth Group, etc…etc…
There are probably a dozen or more things running every week.
If his service is like many of the churches I go to, Homosexual marriage is probably discussed less than 5% of the time. I say 5% because it is a safe number. Most every church I have ever been to rarely discuss it at all.
The only reason why you think Homosexual marriage is all Terry Fox talks about is because that is all that the media focuses on.
The other reason it received so much attention was because it was a political issue at the time as well in our country. Obviously it is going to get some attention.
To get back to the original question, why doesn’t he promote other things to help protect marriage, well he does. If you were to go to his church I can almost promise you that you would find that there is a wealth of programs, support, classes, bible studies, etc…, which all support and promote the things which make a marriage healthy and strong.
Every Pastor I have ever met usually offers pre-marriage counseling and services to help people make the right decisions before they just jump into a commitment like marriage.
That is why I say the question it’s self is a dishonest one. To ask a question like that you would have to have never set foot into a church let alone Terry Fox’s church.
“there is a wealth of programs, support, classes, bible studies, etc…, which all support and promote the things which make a marriage healthy and strong.”
Care to provide some details, or are we just supposed to accept your infalliability?
BTW, if that is the track record of what the ayatollah terry has done FOR marriage in the past, ya gotta ask, how are all those classes and counseling sessions working for ya?
Got any plans to do something different in the future, or will you just stick with the same old unsuccessful course you are on?
Or is it just easier to blame the queers when YOUR marriages fail and what you say you are doing to address it obviously isnt working.
I should have asked “are you doing anything EFFECTIVE or just going through the motions”?
I just love debating with myself this way.
Oh yeah, nathan always reads the minds of others and knows their intent.
He cant even detail the programs his church provides, yet he is qualified to pronounce Thomas Witt as dishonest and someone who has never set foot in ANY church much less the ayatollah’s?
heheheheh. Nathan, you dont have the moral fiber to carry Tom’s shoes. If you knew him, you would never say that.
Or maybe you would since truth matters less than truthiness to nathan.
Tracy,
Could you please tell me where in the Bible it talks about loving tolerance?
I am also curious how you reconcile your moral relativity statement with being a Christian too. (unless your statement was made in jest in the other thread)
Since you brought it up, what was Christ’s “REAL intent and motives?”
As to why KFG says Jesus wept… it is to ridicule those of us who do believe in Christ. Have you ever tried to have a discussion with her on Christianity or Christs teachings?
KFG,
I am not a member of Terry’s church. I have never been to one of his services.
I couldn’t provide you with the details.
I can speak from my experience in many other Christian churches on how they operate and what they focus on and do seeing as many are very similar.
When did Terry Fox ever blame Homosexual marriage they way you say?
I am not saying anything about the character of Thomas, I am saying his question is kind of dishonest. It is simply a logical way of looking at it. Kind of like asking someone when they stopped beating their wife. It already implies something which I don’t think is true.
Wow, Nathan. You said that real polite like. Congrads.Yes you have a point.Most churches do have programs and missions for marriages in trouble and/or abuse in the home.I’ve been to AA meetings in churches, and when I finally sobered up my marriage got better.At the same time frmgirl has a point, however she may not have been so polite in making that point. The point being that in some churches, alcaholics, addicts, gays, and just everyday people who don’t quite mirror the congregation, are made to feel unwelcome, whether intentional or not. If you want to feel some genuine acceptance, tolerance and love, go to a few small town AA meetings as a guest some night.Make sure it’s an “open” meeting, unless you’re there as an alcoholic.If churches would adhere to AA’s, twelve traditions, they would certainly NOT be a hot-bed of controversy. One tradition is to have no opinion on outside issues.
Oh, and don’t tell the drunks, but the whole thing is really Christ’s teachings (in drag).
Mark McCormick outlines the reasons he thinks Fox and the church should come clean about the reasons for the split.
http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/columnists/mark_mccormick/15228877.htm
Maybe Darrell can tell us what really happened…
I have not attended Terry Fox’s church but I did graduate from a Bible College with the likes of Terry Fox, Joe Wright, Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. I can tell you from personal experience, these people’s public image is nothing like their personal life. I learned to never turn your back on them or cross them in any way – they will get revenge each and every time. Most of these so-called Evanglical Christians are driven by self-inflated egos and their greed. God has nothing to do with their agenda – even though each and everyone of them uses his name to “justify” their agenda.
CR,
Going back to logic, thank you for demonstrating a Hasty Generalization and a poor example of stereotyping at that.
LIke I said – it was a personal experience of mine and I am not generalizing or sterotyping. Have you ever been “burned” by religious zealots? Apparently not – so-called Christians are some of the worst people on the earth! The truth hurts
Tracy,
I agree that the way many churches are set up they don’t make people feel welcome or comfortable many times. It is a problem in the American Christian Church that I do wish would change for the better.
CR,
What Bible Collage did you attend?
What were you studying?
I think the American Christian Church went wrong in the late 70’s when the mega-church became popular. That is when churches became big business with their big multi-million dollar budgets and their campus with multi buildings. With all that money to worry about – their focus has changed from God’s work to “how can we make more money”. Get back to being spiritual and less materialistic!
Nathan,CR does have a very valid point. Be it right, wrong or indifferent, sometimes good ‘christian’ people are more judgemental and hurtful than the general population. Heaven forbid a rumor start about you in the church – welcoming arms will turn to cold shoulders in a heartbeat without any proof or confirmation.
Julie,
That can be said about any organization.
What does it all mean? People are sinful beings who need God’s grace.
Of course people in a church are not perfect and they “sometimes” do stupid things.
The age old saying is that when you find the perfect church you shouldn’t join it, because it wont be perfect anymore when you do!
However, the point CR made was not in moderation. It said:
“Most of these so-called Evanglical Christians are driven by self-inflated egos and their greed. God has nothing to do with their agenda – even though each and everyone of them uses his name to “justify” their agenda.”
That was an Hasty Generalization, which is not true.
He was not trying to make a point, only bash what he calls Evangelicals.
Nathan – I went to a fundamental Baptist College and I graduated. I was also a preacher’s wife for a few years. That’s when I saw where greed, ego, self-importance can turn into very ugly hatred. And they always preface that with “I believe in the one true God”. That way – it is the other person’s fault for whatever. This holier-than-thou attitude never works to accomplish anything. Jesus never used that tactic – he used living by example to reach his believers. Actions speak louder than words.
Nathan,I’m praying for your safe return to your family.Just wanted to let you know.
So how come it is Evangelical Christians the like of Terry Fox, Joe Wright, Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell that all make the news about their cultural war issue? They have put themselves in that public spotlight – I didn’t force them to do it. Whatever criticism they receive is because they put themselves in that position.
CR,
Of course when you are in the spotlight you are going to receive criticism.
It doesn’t make that criticism true though.
What is your point?
You are obviously not open to any other thought than your own – so let’s just say that I have not abandoned my faith – I quit the Evangelical Christian church. My life has been much happier since I have surrounded myself with many more views than just that narrow tube. I have friends who are of all faiths – and I have learned many different ideas that I can say I truly learned something. Food for thought – you might want to try it.
CR,
Try what, specifically?
I am here to discuss things. You have come here and made charges against whole groups of people.
Why did you say what you did about Evangelicals? What was your purpose bringing that here?
NATHAN, IMHO, the only way to make people feel welcome is to do it yourself. If somebody very different comes in and people avoid them, get up and go greet them.LOVE THE UNLOVABLE, that’s what Jesus would and did do.
Do you think gays are going to hell?If you have the correct christian motive, WASH THEIR FEET. (METAPHOR)That’s WJWD.
IMHO, if you want what Jesus had, accept him and his ways IN YOUR HEART, not at the front of the church, or on TV, FOR GOD’S SAKE!
Well enough preaching from an evil lib like me.
CR said that because she had an awful experience with some of them, as many of us have.
The ones she was exposed to were anything but tolerant.They were full of self-pride and that IS one of the seven deadly sins.
Darrel,I wouldn’t attend because it disturbs me to be around so much hatred. I also wouldn’t attend because I’m not christian, and wouldn’t want to be. And I wouldn’t attend because of that giant phallic symbol (My cross is bigger that your cross)next to your church; that thing is obscene!I have many dear friends in the gay and lesbian community, some of whom have literally saved my life, and it hurts me to no end to see the hatred that your former pastor has spewed at them. You say you only hate the sin, but when you give people permission to come after my friends with axe-handles, when you campaign to deny them the rights you claim to cherish, you aren’t expressing love for anybody, including yourselves!No, I wouldn’t attend your church, and I suspect neither would Jesus!
Yes Nathan is right – all groups are subject to sinners – even his.
Maybe you can provide more details as to Fox’s sudden departure Darrel?
Maybe you can also shed a little light on this from the Mc Cormick article Steve linked.
.”As part of an agreement, the church will offer “prayer and financial” support until that ministry is up and running, he said.”
Hmmmm financial support? If Fox is up to activities that would have earned his church attention from the IRS perhaps this “financial support” for Fox’s “new ministry” should be better explored.
“If his service is like many of the churches I go to, Homosexual marriage is probably discussed less than 5% of the time. I say 5% because it is a safe number. Most every church I have ever been to rarely discuss it at all.”
5%–which is far less than it’s mentioned in the Bible. Adultery and divorce are mentioned more. So why is it that these particular Christians go after gays/homosexuals, yet they “minister to” those who commit adultery and end their marriages in divorce?
In some churches, although not the aforementioned, it is WRONG to divorce, no matter what the situation. Hubby is a drunken b@st@ard and beats his wife and kids on a daily basis? Pray to Jesus that he’ll stop, but do not, on any account, leave the marriage, even if it means you might be killed. Why? Maybe because “in the end,” that hubby will get his just desserts…for depriving his children of a mother.
Sad. Sick. Distorted.
I have only one question for Darrell, Nathan, and anyone else who supports the opposition to gay marriage and/or civil union.
How do gays and/or gay marriage/civil union harm you or your marriage?
I have yet to get a straight, recognizable answer from a Christian on this.
Now’s your chance, guys.
Amen to that JR – the truth has yet to come out.
Hey RD and everyone else…
Gays should have the same right to be married and miserable as the rest of us hetero’s!
Why should we deny them the years of abuse we put up with from our wives? and visa versa for all u women out there…
Gezzz… Get a life!
IT’S THE FLAGS, THEY HATE THE FLAGS!!
Tony,Sorry about your marriage!
Ya’ll lost Darrell shortly after 10AM this morning. He hasn’t posted since. Maybe, its time to move on from Darrell?
RD,
First of all, no one I know is “going after” homosexuals.
The issue is regarding state endorsement of their lifestyle by the government which is what I and many oppose.
Beyond that, I don’t care what they do. The issue is marriage, the Christians I know are not out burning them at the stake like many of you here make it sound.
Last I checked KFG was opening a restaurant, farming, and doing whatever it is she wants to do in life just fine… except for getting her lifestyle approved by the government.
As far as I know, homosexuals are treated no differently by the Christians I know from any other sinner. Actually, those who committ adultery are treated far worse in my experience.
“How do gays and/or gay marriage/civil union harm you or your marriage?”
It doesn’t. I have never used the argument, and I hate it when others do. I use many other arguments.
Okay, NEXT !!Now serving drew, is there a drew on this thread?
Nathan voted his conscience.I think most people do.
Last time I checked, my church isn’t ‘going after’ gays. It was going after ending homelessness and collaborating with the Catholics at the Lords Diner. How many of the Fox/Wright clan have you seen at the Lord’s Diner?
I, for one, miss Darrell and his brother, Darrell. :-(
what about his other brother Darrell?
Tracy,
There is a difference between living in sin and committing a sinful act.
When a Christian sins he is called to repent for that sin to God and ask for forgiveness.
Repenting for your sin means you acknowledge it as being wrong and try to correct yourself.
Being a “homosexual” is not in it’s self a sin, but committing acts of homosexuality is sin.
If you never repent to God or ask for forgiveness of that sin then you are not right with God.
If you do not seek God’s forgiveness nor do you repent of your sins then YES, I think you are going to hell.
Basically, if you are a practicing homosexual you are living in a life of sin and willfilly choose to disobey God, you don’t repent of your sins, nor do you seek forgiveness… not going to heaven.
Not very often do I get upset at what you post Nathan, but that has to be some of the dumbest crap ever posted on this site.
Sorry, you missed me, but I do have work that I need to do. In reading the various posts I have been called a dunce, comprehension challeged, a dog and some other names. Yet you accuse me of hating people. I don’t hate anyone, but that doesn’t mean I agree with them. I believe this discussion has degraded to the point that all is left is name calling, and since I don’t do that I am done. Thanks for your time and remember God loves you.
Well Darrel,
I cannot speak for others but all I did was ask you a question. I see you have chosen not to adddress it. My conclusion is that you are either ignorant as to Fox’s hasty departure from your church , or that as Mark McCormick suggests their is more to it than meets the eye and you’d rather not reveal anything.
I guess it would be harder to say that than to whine about what others post?
JR: What does it matter to people of fairness and integrity?
I would suspect that some are hoping against hope that something, anything, derogatory comes out, true or not, so that it could be used to tear Rev Fox down personally. Simply because they disagree with him. Sad.
Win,,If your church supported the Hate Amendment, that is “going after gays.”
BTW, folks, constitutional amendments are not just ‘opinions.’
Denying persons equal protection under the law constitutes “going after”
Dennis,
If you would like to actually discuss what I wrote I am more than willing to.
If all you wanted to do was say something deragatory with no further thought…well mission accomplished.
Ben,
What “equal protection” is someone being denied because they choose to love someone from the same sex?
KFG is free to love another girl all she wants. Last time I checked KFG even brought her significant other down to the picnic.
I am not sure how she made it past the government checkpoints denying her “equal protection” under the law though…LOL
Rage,
Status quo before amendment:
No same sex marriage.
Status quo after amendment:
No same sex marriage.
Life must be so bad for homosexuals with all of us “going after” them…
Nothing changed.
JR,
Perhaps there is something to his departure, perhaps it is not so complicated at all.
I am sure you could probably go there and ask one of the thousands which attend and figure it out instead of pretending like it is some big secret…
There is life outside of this blog you know?
Whatever the real reason for his departure is, it will come out at some point in time. The truth always comes out. What I find interesting is that MOST people do not resign without giving any notice. That makes it appear very suspicious. Why not just tell the truth from the beginning?
Tom Witt is a hottie. I’m glad he’s out there spreading our message!
Well I don’t remember addressing you Nathan. Seems like you already got a full plate. I can jump in if you would like.
I was addressing someone saying that he was from Fox’s church to see if he knew anything about the sudden departure. And it is Mark McCormick who makes the suggestion that there is more to it than we are hearing. I just happen to agree.
Nathan,
It isn’t as much about equal protection as much as it is about equal rights. You aren’t old enough to remember segregation. I am and do. I also remember the long, long battle to end it and to give blacks/African-Americans/whatever equal rights under the law that whites have had since the inception of this country.
Now religious people have decided that gays cannot “marry,” whether church sanctioned or state. YOUR spouse has the right, as your spouse, to many things. The same is not true for a same sex couple. And only because you and yours consider what they do a sin.
Ben is right. (Thank you, Ben.) What he mention IS “going after.”
You’re judging gays on something that doesn’t have anything to do with you. Their lifestyle does not alter yours, their right to marry or join in a civil union does not alter your right to marry, nor does it alter your marriage.
Giving gays equal rights does not mean you will join in with their lifestyle. It does not mean you necessarily condone their lifestyle. Not allowing them the equality makes YOU the judge, not God. And I don’t believe He ever meant it to be that way. (My capitalizations of God and He are in respect of your beliefs.)
Basically, marriage as we know it is a civil union. It is not necessary to be joined in marriage by using any reference to God. It’s a state thing, not a church thing, although the majority of people do marry in churches or are married by a minister. So why not let gays have the same right of marriage/union by the state, and let churches and ministers decide if they want to be a part of it on an individual basis. That way you’d have the opportunity to have your feathers ruffled even more and would know what churches you could say didn’t follow God’s law and what churches did.
I think what Nathan is trying to say is that if you treat everyone decently you incur god’s wrath. Some god!
After reading McCormicks article I am under the opinion that this is the Churchs’ business and if they wanted to tell you exactly what happened they would.
We dont have a right to know, and the Church is not supported by taxpayers, so let it go and let the congregation deal with it.
Gotta disagree Gary.
Fox left for a reason. I suspect that reason was to avoid IRS attention on a church where Fox was shilling politics. And we have this that I earlier posted from McCormicks article.
“As part of an agreement, the church will offer “prayer and financial” support until that ministry is up and running, he said.”
I want full attention on that “financial support” to Fox’s “new ministry”. I say they are gaming separation of church and state.
I think churches should be taxed just like any other organization. I have yet to go to a church that dont say something about politics and who to vote for. Hell, i love the Catholics the best, they hide it as a prayer, saying something like, please pray for our pro-life leaders… and be sure to exercise your decision to vote for pro-life leaders… as far as i am concerned, that’s involving themselves into politics.
I hear that Opperation Southwind Leader Jan Beemer had something to do with his resignation.
“The devil wears a bracelet that says “What would terry, joe and fred do?”"
Good one KFG, you must have had a second cup of coffee!
I always taught my kids that telling the truth was even more important than the making of bad choices. When the bad choices do occur, the damage is greater and reaches much farther with lying and cover up. If this be the case, Rev. Fox needs to come clean.
Gandhi once said if Christians lived according to their faith, there would be no Hindus left in India. He knew how powerful the fundamental tenets of Christianity — fighting poverty, caring for the least among us, loving your enemies, eschewing materialism and embracing humility — could be if everyone who called themselves a Christian truly followed them
Kristen A. Powers
Let’s cast some more pearls before the “Swine”. I want you to rend us Christians some more.1. God created mankind to haveFREE WILL.2. God said, “Be fruitful andmultiply”.Homosexuals/Lesbians cannotbe fruitful and multiply thepopulationGod did not create you as homosexuals and lesbians, you have CHOSEN by your own FREE WILL to live this lifestyle.Don’t you just hate those words FREE WILL. I got them from the Bible. God said them. Don’t you Christian haters just hate God for saying it.HE LOVES YOU and created you with the ability to CHOOSE even to hate HIM.God also said that man laying with man and woman laying with woman in unnatural affection is a sin which is now called SODOMY, which, by the way is still against the law in Kansas.God created, established and ordained marriage to be between one man and one woman.Terry is not spreading hatred, he is standing up for what God’s word commands. He loves people enough to tell them GOD’s truth at great personal risk and sacrifice.You have the right to choose to live as a homosexual.You DO NOT have the right to force your “lifestyle legislation” upon the entire population by making it law.Taking a stand against a law that goes against God’s word is NOT legislating morality, but rather you progressive, liberal, Christ and Christian hating, no moral absolutes, left-wingers are legislating IMMORALITY, which does affect ALL of society.We Christians will not allow you to legislate a mockery and hatred against God’s WORD and HIS love for mankind.Now, tear me down. I can hardly wait to see your hatred in writing.
TM..No need to tear you down, but let me point out something else Jesus said:”Love your neighbor as yourself”
Are we, as Christians doing that?And what did Paul say in 2 Corinthians?
2 Cor 5, 9-13
9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”
We were NOT sent to judge those outside the church, we are sent to live a life worthy of Christ in order to draw others to Him!
Are we, as Christians doing that?Do not forget that Jesus loves homosexuals and lesbians just as much as he loves you!
Multiply? Are we nothing but doped white mice being bred for some divine scientific experiments?
Be fruitful? How more “fruity” be LGBT folks be to qualify the standard?
Anyway, I thought leading life meaningful to others count toward heavenly brownie points. I guess not. Now I must go home to do some “math” problem with my better half…
And as for sodomy, I thought Lawrence vs. Texas settled that.
Another question for the faithful:
“If the fetus you’re protecting grows up to be gay, will you still fight for its rights?”
TM–
Since anything we liberals say is just hate-filled anti-Christianity, perhaps you’ll find these sources more authoritative:
Every man “ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience.” –George Washington
“It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service (of establishing the US democracy) had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.
“. . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind. –John Adams
“During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.”
“What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not.” –James Madison
“The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. These found it wrong in the Bishops, but fell into the same practice themselves both here [England] and in New England.” –Benj. Franklin
“Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifiying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory to itself than this thing called Christianity. ” –Thomas Paine
“I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between church and State.” –Thomas Jefferson
“the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion” –Treaty of Tripoli, signed by John Adams and approved by vote of the US Senate, 1797
*****
The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.
I don’t know how anyone can say it more plainly than that.
kansassam,
First of all, we are not “judging” homosexuals outside of the church by not supporting government endorsement of their lifestyle.
The verses are nice, but you are definately stretching them to make your point.
You need to first show how:
1. We are judging
2. How those verses are telling us to not be a part of the government process as citizens with voting rights. Something which was not happening during the time those verses were written.
3. How do you reconcile our being part of a representative republic as Christians?
You see, there are many things you are just skipping right on by…CONTEXT…to jump to throwing those verses out like they say what we as Christians are doing is wrong.
“You DO NOT have the right to force your “lifestyle legislation” upon the entire population by making it law.”
Nor do you, TM. And that is precisely what you are attempting. Why must I accept legislation based on YOUR morals, when mine are just fine?
RedRad beat me to posting the Treaty with Tripoli. Good for you that and the others!
RD,
Every law that is passed is based on someones morals, world view, politics, opinion…what ever you want to call it.
It is a representative republic. It seems to be working so far.
Nathan, stop claiming everything as your own.
“You see, there are many things you are just skipping right on by…CONTEXT…to jump to throwing those verses out like they say what we as Christians are doing is wrong.”
What? YOU are claiming WE are picking and choosing? That’s classic, Nathan! ROFL
RD,
I said nothing about picking and choosing.
Are you sure you are reading my reply correctly?
No Nathan,I have never said that Christians cannot participate in the political process. We are free to shout our views from the rooftops if we so choose. If our views are in the majority, then they will be highly considered in the legislative process. But, when we, as Christians, say things like “not supporting government endorsement of their lifestyle”, then I feel we have stepped outside the doors of the church and are raising our morality to a position above the tenets of fairness and non-discrimination guaranteed by our Constitution.Yes, we can legally pass Marriage Amendments, but is that truly the right thing to do? Is that how Jesus handled issues? Did he go to Caesar and plead for laws banning adultery, banning lying, banning idol worship.. you get the picture? What have we gained for the Kingdom? … and what have we lost?Jesus always drew people unto Himself and then changed them. We are trying to change people in order to force them to be Christlike. I think we have it backwards. I do NOT want to answer to Jesus because I stood in the way, or was a stumbling block to an entire community of people who he is calling. I am so afraid for the church because I can see it happening.
One of the arguments Christians use against homosexuality is that gays/lesbians cannot multiply. Then what about the infertile straight couple? Are they less Christian because they cannot multiply?
As for the Treaty with Tripoli…
“the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion”
Why is that true? It is true because the Republic was founded BY mainly Christians who, in the true sense of Christian love, designed a government that would not, and could not perecute people for their religious beliefs. The government was created secular not to protect you from Christianity, but from theocracy.
kansassam,
“as Christians, say things like “not supporting government endorsement of their lifestyle”, then I feel we have stepped outside the doors of the church and are raising our morality to a position above the tenets of fairness and non-discrimination guaranteed by our Constitution.”
That is fine. Has nothing to do with what the Bible says for us to do as Christians.
You think it is discrimination which the Constitution protects against, I don’t.
Let me ask you this, Do you think homosexuality is a sin?
Yes, we can legally pass Marriage Amendments, but is that truly the right thing to do?
Sure. If we have the ability and freedom to participate in the government process are we not obligated to vote based on what we believe to be true? Why should we vote contrary to what we believe?
“Is that how Jesus handled issues? Did he go to Caesar and plead for laws banning adultery, banning lying, banning idol worship.. you get the picture?”
Historical context. Jesus was not a part of a government which allowed it’s people to partake in things like voting and freedom of speech. You can’t make an argument based on what someone did not do when you do not know for certain how they would have done it. Jesus didn’t eat popcorn or watch TV. I suppose we should not do that either?
“What have we gained for the Kingdom? … and what have we lost?”
This is a whole different disucssion. First of all, by voting for representatives who support our views we make things better.
I would argue that by not allowing homosexuality to become an “accepted”, “tolerated”, and “condoned” way of life we prevent more people from making that choice.
Ultimately it makes our community and our country better.
We are not trying to change anyone. KFG can still be as gay as she wants to be. Why is that so hard to understand? Why does everyone keep making absurd statements which are not true?
The only thing this does is prevent the government from sanctioning their lifestyle choice.
It doesn’t change KFG. Look at her, she is still gay and seems even more determined to let everyone know it too.
How is not tolerated sin a stumbling block?
That is the most backwards thinking I have ever heard.
What was the entire reason Jesus came?
“If we have the ability and freedom to participate in the government process are we not obligated to vote based on what we believe to be true?”
Of course, you do, but not to extent of limiting the civil rights of others. Or do you disagree? Haven’t we already agreed that gay unions do NOT harm you? And aren’t laws enacted primarily to keep a few from harming others in some way?
Nathan, you ignore other things that are against Christ’s teachings and focus on this one. Or these two, if we want to include abortion. But let’s focus on this one so we will stay on topic.
People are sinning every day. What about adultery? What about divorce? What about reading again what Thomas Witt said? Those things he mentioned appear in the Bible countless more times that homosexuality, yet the Christian right has decided to use IT as their moral measuring stick. Why? That’s what we’re asking.
Do you hate people who divorce?
“Ultimately it makes our community and our country better.”
No, hate never does that, and what the Christian Right is doing is promoting hate. I’m not saying the majority is, but those on the fringe do, stirring up trouble and doing things like tearing down rainbow flags. Saying that gay marriage will harm their marriage. That’s a bunch of bs, and we both know it, Nathan. Those are the seedlings of hate, and if fertilized, will grow until out of control.
RD,
You seem to be having problems with reading what I write.
No where did I say that I hate anyone, let alone homosexuals. I have always said this. I have several wonderful friends who choose to be homosexuals too.
The reason this is an issue is not because of Christians. It was brought to the forefront by liberal activist judges overturning laws already in place.
When that happens, you go the constitutional amendment route. It is part of those wonderful checks and balances our government was founded on.
I am not ignoring any of Christs teachings.
The problem is that you seem to think Christians are doing this to force a theocracy, which we are not.
You assume we do this because we hate homosexuals, which we don’t.
You assume that because this happens to be a political issues right now it is all we care about, which is not true either.
Nathan….My comments are after the — I have attempted to respond as best I can, we can just agree to diagree on some issues… but I really DO appreciate who and where you are… thank you for defending our right to argue!!
Let me ask you this, Do you think homosexuality is a sin?— Nathan my friend, I have expressed my views more than once on the BLOGS, and I have incurred the wrath of both sides of the issue. My views on sin are not much different than yours, homosexuality in being is not a sin, the practice is… but no more that lying or divorcing….
Yes, we can legally pass Marriage Amendments, but is that truly the right thing to do?
Sure. If we have the ability and freedom to participate in the government process are we not obligated to vote based on what we believe to be true? Why should we vote contrary to what we believe?— my position is that Christian marriage is a church issue and it should be up to the church who they marry and don’t marry. Outside of the church, civil unions should be a civil rights issue.
“Is that how Jesus handled issues? Did he go to Caesar and plead for laws banning adultery, banning lying, banning idol worship.. you get the picture?”
Historical context. Jesus was not a part of a government which allowed it’s people to partake in things like voting and freedom of speech. You can’t make an argument based on what someone did not do when you do not know for certain how they would have done it. Jesus didn’t eat popcorn or watch TV. I suppose we should not do that either?— Please Nathan.. all we have is God’s Word, and we know how Jesus reacted in every kind of situation. If you choose to not eat popcorn or watch TV, I guess that would be good for you! Tell me that Caiphas and the religious leaders did not use the government……
“What have we gained for the Kingdom? … and what have we lost?”
This is a whole different disucssion. First of all, by voting for representatives who support our views we make things better.
I would argue that by not allowing homosexuality to become an “accepted”, “tolerated”, and “condoned” way of life we prevent more people from making that choice.
Ultimately it makes our community and our country better.— I argue that NOONE has been drawn to Jesus through this Amendment process.. and it has become increasingly difficult to minister to the street community.
We are not trying to change anyone. KFG can still be as gay as she wants to be. Why is that so hard to understand? Why does everyone keep making absurd statements which are not true?— I guess that means you are calling me a liar Nathan?
The only thing this does is prevent the government from sanctioning their lifestyle choice.
It doesn’t change KFG. Look at her, she is still gay and seems even more determined to let everyone know it too.
How is not tolerated sin a stumbling block?
That is the most backwards thinking I have ever heard.
What was the entire reason Jesus came?
— Nathan, Tell me how the church has become more inviting to KFG.. by showing the unconditional love of Christ? I would suggest that she and others have been convinced that they are “not good enough”, and that they can come if they just change their ways….I do not have to tolerate sin in my life in order to love people… do you know any gay people, drunks, addicts, prostitutes, millionaires, Company CEO’s, adulterers…. they ALL suffer from dying in their sins…. HOW do you propose to share the message of Christ with them if you beat them up right away? If you do, I guarantee you they will not care what you have to say. Nathan.. what if you have a son someday that falls into an “unacceptable” category… will you drive him away….. or will you show him the love of Christ? Isn’t that how Jesus expects us to treat others as well?
Excellent post, kansassam!
Nathan:
From your posts, I assume you believe earnestly that homosexuality is a choice, and not biologically inherent within the person. What if that were not the case, that it were imprinted within the physicality, would you still support your belief?
Driving by some of the mega monuments of wealth and prosperity representing Wichita’s Christan’s. One has wonder what these people are concerned with other than mine is bigger than yours.
What turns me off is the Religious Right’s holier than thou attitude. They somehow feel that just because they go to a large church with a big cross in front of it – that it makes them a better person than the “other guy”. Guess what – God sees every one’s heart and that is where the true Christianity lives – in the heart not your mouth.
kansasam:I did not pass judgment on homosexuals. I repeated what God’s word says. God IS love.Yes, HE loves all Sinners! But, HE is a JUST God and there is a Heaven to be gained by the precious blood of Jesus and a Hell to be shunned.I did not spew hate, cynicism and judgment in my earlier writing.Homosexuals can co-habitate and proliferate their lifestyle all they want, but to legislate it into law with all the rights of a one man/one woman relationship is ANTI-GOD and ANTI-FAMILY. What civil rights as HUMAN BEINGS do Homosexuals currently NOT have????!!!! No, they don’t have the same MARITAL rights, but that’s the whole point. NONE of their CIVIL rights have been violated.To legislate homosexual marriage into law is to legislate their immoral lifestyle into law.It’s not about preventing people from engaging in their current lifestyle choice, it IS about denying immorality a legal avenue to infiltrate and destroy the core values of what it means to be a true family by God’s definition.
Kansassam,
You seem to be worried about perceptions of the church by people who are already biased against the church anyhow…KFG.
It is not our responsibility as Christians nor the teachings of Christ to bend over backwards to create some immaculant perception of ourselves to alliviate anyone and everyones misgivings toward us.
Yes, we are to love people. Loving someone has nothing to do with tolerance for their sin.
If KFG were to come to my church she would be welcomed with open arms.
What we wouldn’t tolerate is her promoting acceptance and tolerance of committing homosexual acts in the church.
Just like the church wouldn’t tolerate an open adulterous relationship either.
I think you are looking at the small picture while I am looking at the overall one.
In the grand scheme of things, our world will be a better place and more people will come to know Christ than in one where there is no one to say that things are sin and sin is wrong.
Why do we tell people about Christ? It is because they live in sin and without Christ they are destined to hell.
The sin part is still there.
At some point, people have to repent and ask for forgivness which is all part of having faith in Christ.
It is all part of growing in faith.
However, as a Christian, with voting rights and the freedoms I have, I am not going to support laws which condone, endorse, and tolerate what I consider to be an immoral and sinful lifestyle.
The average church size for my denomination is less than 300 members per church.
I know that you are under some illusion that every Christian is a member of some mega church…but like most everything else you think you know about Christians or Christianity, you are wrong.
“…it IS about denying immorality a legal avenue to infiltrate and destroy the core values of what it means to be a true family by God’s definition.”
Infiltrate and destroy the core values of “true family?” And divorce, adultery, abuse, poverty haven’t been doing that for centuries?
I’m divorced, so I guess you’re saying that my children and I are not a true family in God’s eyes.
Yet again, we’re all being judged, but not by God. By these humans who believe they are judge and jury.
Nathan,
Have your gay friends told you they chose to be gay? I’m really curious about this and mean no harm to you by asking.
RD, that was my question to Nathan as well, and so far he has refused to answer.
I have had political discussions with only one of my friends. The others know that I am both a conservative and Christian and we just never talk about it.
I have never discussed with them about the choice of it.
I assume that any conversation with them would probably be pretty personal and feelings would get hurt so we just avoid it.
Going back to the whole love people and show them Jesus that way…
It is my philosophy to just be their friend, treat them like I do anyone else, and I answer questions for them when they have them.
RD,
You bet people are being “judged”
I do it all the time. I judge peoples character before I give them responsibility.
I judge whether or not the person I am lending money to will pay it back.
I judge if a person is telling me the truth when telling me something.
There is nothing wrong with that and everyone does it.
But, Nathan, the things you mention that you judge on (lending money, believing) actually affect you. Gays don’t.
And does this mean that I and my children are not a family in God’s eyes? If so, I’ve just wasted a lot of years that could’ve been spent on ME. Damn, why didn’t someone tell me?
Oh, and what homosexual acts do you think gays might commit in a church?
I’m sorry to hear that you haven’t spoken with your gay friends, although I do understand why you refrain from adding politics to your conversations. I think if you had discussed the gay issue, you might learn some things that would make you stop and think. Then again, that jarhead of yours is pretty thick…which will serve you well in the near future, I’m sure. Take care, Nathan.
Unfortunately, the Religious Right has hijacked the term “Christian” and has given the rest of the country a bad taste for the Christian view. Too many of the less zealot Christians have stood by for too long and let these big mouths run the show.
RD,
I don’t make the argument that homosexual marriage really bothers me personally.
When someone has “a loving” relationship with an animal it doesn’t really effect me personally.
I don’t want the government to sanction a marriage between the two though…
“Oh, and what homosexual acts do you think gays might commit in a church?”
I don’t know of anything off hand. It was not a specific statement. It was a general comparison.
Who is pushing for marriage between a person and their pet? Certainly not the gays/lesbians. Get real.
CR,
Exactly CR! That is why we don’t need an amendment banning it.
I’m not discussing the other issues. They are just as relevant as the marriage amendment.However,I am discussing the Marriage amendment that Terry and Joe worked so diligently to get through in Topeka.When I said true family, I meant the traditional family. If you are divorced, then you have been a victim or perpetrator of the many threats that can come against the traditional family. I’m sorry for your loss.Christians are NOT judge and jury. GOD’s word by the power of the Holy Spirit convicts of sin and of right and wrong.To CR:The religious right is not “Holier than Thou”. We are ALL sinners saved by the Blood, Mercy and Great Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. Just because Immanuel has a large church building with a big cross, it doesn’t mean we think we are better than anyone else. That is your perception of us for whatever reason. In fact, most of the members at Immanuel are common, hard-working laborers. Not too many financially and materially affluent people here. Just people who work hard each week and come together to worship and serve God.
For the record: Homosexuality can also be included as a threat to Marriage among the list Thomas Witt expressed, divorce, infidelity, abuse and poverty.
When an animal can say I DO, then we can discuss marriage between humans and animals. Until then…
I saw some great bumper stickers on the back of a car today.
“Anti-abortion? Then don’t have one.”
“Homophobia: A Social Disease”
Wish I’d had time to write them down, but I was giggling and smiling as I made my way to my car.
My all-time favorite (and I don’t put stickers on my car) was mentioned on another thread a few weeks ago.
“If you bad-mouth farmers, don’t talk with your mouth full.”
sorry, I only go by how the Christians folk from those big churche with the big crosses treat everyone that they disagree with! Why take it personal if you aren’t like that?
The Religious Right has made gay marriage an issue. Before Terry Fox and Joe Wright – I never knew we had that many gay/lesbians wanting to marry. Of course, this is an issue that has probably filled their coffers with money.
As soon as Christians begin to agitate for moral and ethical change outside the church, they go where God has not commanded them to go.
Kansassam,I must respectfully disagree with you. You see, the church is IN the world. We who are Christians can not help but to strive for moral rectitude in the laws of society because we are IN society… understand? Moreover, the message of the Gospel is not exactly liked by everyone and we know this, however if what we preach is not the Gospel and preach something that is pleasing to all men, then it would cease to be the Gospel wouldn’t it? No kansassam, we spread the Gospel even at the cost of our very lives, and nobody, no matter how mad they get at us is going to stop us from doing so.
“and he said to them, you are the LIGHT of the WORLD, you are the SALT of the EARTH.”
One does not cover the light of a lamp, but allows its light to illuminate the household, in the same way it is our duty as Christians to rectify the inequities of society. By the way,KFG,What has my church done against the threats to marriage?Well my Church has gone so far as to ban divorce, and it’s been that way for the past two millenia as any student of Catholic social teaching would inform you.Peace in tha Middle East. =)
CrusaderWill,
Do you believe the banning of divorce has helped people?
And as I understand it, although there is no “divorce” in the Catholic church, many have dissolved their marriages. Subsequent marriages are not recognized by the church, but they are recognized by the state.
Even the Catholic church is changing. Oh, and I do personally know at least two gay priests. I once had a discussion about reincarnation with one of them.
Nathan,You say the government should not “endorse their lifestyle,” but gay and lesbian people are citizens of this country too, and entitled to the same rights you claim for yourself! You’ve put logic through endless tortures to manufacture reasons other than your religious prejudices to persecute gay people, but so far, you’ve produced nothing at all that holds water. Of course, that doesn’t matter, because your prejudices are the only real reason you need! I’ve seen all this before; during the height of the civil rights movement, christian conservatives used all the same arguments to justify their persecution of black people and protestants used them before that to explain their hatred of catholics, ad infinitum. If being a hate-filled imbecil is what floats your boat, I suppose that’s your right, but if the rest of us prefer you’d go someplace else to do it, that’s our right too!
Jed:What CIVIL rights are gay/lesbians being denied??????Somebody answer the question please!!As I previously stated:Homosexuals can co-habitate and proliferate their lifestyle all they want, but to legislate it into law with all the rights and priviledges of a one man/one woman relationship is ANTI-GOD and ANTI-FAMILY.IT IS NOT ABOUT HATE OR PREJUDICE!! IT IS ABOUT BEING FAITHFUL AND OBEDIENT TO GOD’s WORD.Jesus was called a winebibber because he hung out and ate and drank with the big sinners of his day and culture. He showed them love and compassion, but HE also pointed out their sins and drew them to HIMSELF by HIS love. He loved the sinner, but hated the sins. This is an over-used religious cliche, but biblical truth none-the-less.I can’t help you understand this because you are entrenched in your anger and rage at Christ and Christians and are blind to the love, grace, mercy and compassion that a merciful God wants to extend to you and to every person who wants it.What civil rights as HUMAN BEINGS do Homosexuals currently NOT have????!!!! No, they don’t have the same MARITAL rights, but that’s the whole point. NONE of their CIVIL rights have been violated.To legislate homosexual marriage into law is to legislate their immoral lifestyle into law.It’s not about preventing people from engaging in their current lifestyle choice, it IS about denying immorality a legal avenue to infiltrate and destroy the core values of what it means to be a traditional family by God’s definition.
I see Nathan has found a fundie playmate in the form of TM.
That last was a little frothy TM. Lotsa caps and punctuation.
Folks? People like TM, Nathan, Terry Fox, and Joe Wright are dangerous. I’ll be back to say why. I want to give TM a chance to respond.
Ok so TM is “hit and run”
If TM’s post crosses mine I aplogize in advance.
This is why folks like Nathan are dangerous.
Nathan on homosexuality:
“I would argue that by not allowing homosexuality to become an “accepted”, “tolerated”, and “condoned” way of life we prevent more people from making that choice.”
And Nathan has not proved but repeatedly asserts that homosexuality is a “choice”. H e simply asserts that by persectution and marginalization other can be forced to think as he does. Does his attitude to this end with homosexuality? I doubt it. I wonder if he will enlighten us furhter as to what is best for us “according to God”.
Oh but he isn’t done!
“In the grand scheme of things, our world will be a better place and more people will come to know Christ than in one where there is no one to say that things are sin and sin is wrong.”
It seems Nathan’s brand of faith is not just to be advocated for legislation for the “greater good” in the US but across the entire world! It that is not advocacy for theocracy I do not know what is. Hey Nathan? I’m an atheist. Would your view reqire that I be “re-educated”?
Fear these people folks. Look for the how and why that Fox left his church and their support for his “new ministry”.
TM,”What CIVIL rights are gay/lesbians being denied??????”The right to marry the person they love, and to have that marriage recognized and accorded the advantages granted under law; the right you have enjoyed unquestioned for quite a long time.And just how is this anti-family? Gays have families too, a fact that in no way affects anybody else’s family! Anti-god? I would imagine that god can take care of that himself, without any assistance from you! If you are going to sling around phrases like anti-family and anti-god, you have to explain the logic behind them, or simply admit your prejudice!
TM,
You do realize that you’re forcing your religious beliefs on others, don’t you? Is that WJWD?
Because THE BIBLE SAYS SO doesn’t mean squat to some people. Some people manage to have very good morals and values WITHOUT believing in your God or even any God. (Just using the caps in the same way you do. ;) )
Spreading the ministry? You’ve stepped way beyond that, TM. Even Nathan at his most rabid isn’t as frothy as you are. In fact, Nathan rarely, if ever, froths.
Have a drink–water, beer, wine, milk, and definitely more Koolaide or whatever–and chill out. You aren’t converting anyone to your POV with all the ranting.
“What CIVIL rights are gay/lesbians being denied??????”
How would a gay man get all the 1000+ rights and privileges of legal marriage? How would he share POA, child custody, insurance, property, etc without having to hire a expensive lawyer (and even that wouldn’t cover everything)? How would he get the tax benefits associated with marriage?
The point is, heterosexual people can get these perks, but gays cannot. THAT is where the discrimination comes in. That is what makes this a civil rights issue.
Gays don’t want to infiltrate the churches. They don’t want the conservative Christian church to recognize their unions.
They want the financial and legal benefits associated with legal marriage. So, again, how would a gay man get access to these perks?
RD,Alright let me break this down simply:Do you believe the banning of divorce has helped people?1. Yes! Because broken homes produce broken children. The number one victims of divorce are the children, a fact often overlooked!
And as I understand it, although there is no “divorce” in the Catholic church, many have dissolved their marriages. Subsequent marriages are not recognized by the church, but they are recognized by the state.2) What you are talking about is known as an annulment. An annulment is an investigation conducted by the Church to discern the validity of a marriage. If there is a fault for example, one of the partners were forced to marry under compulsion of a family member or the suitor himself/herself. Then a certification of annulment can be applied by the bishop of the diocese from which the couple belongs. I will not go into it further as it would take too much space, and Canon Law is a pain in the ass! =) But if you’re interested RD, you should find all the info on annulments in The Catechism of the Catholic Church. So, it is not true when you say Catholic marriages are being dissolved by the Church, but that a separation between spouses is enacted when a marriage is invalid, ipsum est, in a situation where there is no valid marriage, a separation can be sought by the couple.
Even the Catholic church is changing. Oh, and I do personally know at least two gay priests. I once had a discussion about reincarnation with one of them.3)What do I care of renegade priests or secular progressive Catholics conforming to the ways of this profane world? The fact that the Catholic Church is changing is a fact not lost on myself, nor is it anything new to me because the Church has been changing for the past two thousand years!!! But God is still God, the Gospel is still the Gospel, and I am faithful toward God and His Church from birth to the day I die. I too will pass on my faith to my future children the same way my fathers and their fathers did before me. What matters most is that our faith lives on in the lives of our children. Regarding your discussions on reincarnation with gay priests you would do well to know that it takes 8 years to become a priest. 4 years philosophy and 4 years theology. Not only do they study Christian philosophers such as St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, or Soren Keirkegaard, but they also study contemporary philosophers including the athiest existentialist Jean Paul Sartre even Karl Marx and Heidegger. So it is of no surprise that they would have knowledge of reincarnation. The second point is that the Church does not deny the recruitment of gay men to the priesthood. This is because the priesthood of the Catholic Church is patterned after the priesthood of Christ himself, this is the whole logos behind the vow of celibacy. So yeah, priests aren’t supposed to be having sex regardless of being heterosexual or homosexual. If the ones you knew were doing so, then they are not faithful to their vows.
Wait, I know the answer. “He can marry a woman and have all of those benefits.” Am I right?
Think about gay civil unions and compare them to interracial marriages. Suppose that we live in the 1960’s. If a black man and a white woman were madly in love with each other, but couldn’t get married and enjoy the rights and protections of marriage, what would the opposition say? Probably something along the lines of “How is this a civil rights issue?? The black man and white woman aren’t being discriminated against; they can still get those same benefits if they MARRY WITHIN THEIR RACE!”
You can see the flaw in that logic, can’t you?
CrusaderWill,I argue against none of your points about spreading the Gospel. Yes, Christians must preach sin forgiven and live lives worthy of the name of Christ. Our churches must be open, welcoming places filled with love and the “fragrance” of Christ. But, I must remind you that if you legislated the entire Bible into law… it would make NO MAN a Christian. It is Jesus that changes people through a personal relationship.. no law can accomplish that.
“No kansassam, we spread the Gospel even at the cost of our very lives, and nobody, no matter how mad they get at us is going to stop us from doing so.”
I must ask you.. have you, do you, share the Gospel at personal risk, and at risk of making people mad or being rejected? I ask because MOST Christians only share the Gospel with each other in relatively comfortable settings. You and Nathan’s approach works fine there.. but I guarantee you, in a hostile environment, if you start out telling a perfect stranger that they need to repent of their sinful ways, prepare to receive a less than positive response. That message is better received after they know you truly care about them.
RD:I am passionate about God’s Word. I know the words anger you. Everything about God and HIS word angers all of you. It’s not my POV, it is God’s POV! You want to rant and rail against Christ and Christians because you think we have taken away civil rights. You just don’t want anyone telling you what you can and cannot do. All of your life, someone has told you what to do. You can choose to obey or not obey, but you must live with the consequences of your choices.Christians must take a stand for Gods word. God did not ordain, condone nor establish gays and lesbians to be married. You live according to your own standards, but what are your standards based upon? By whose or what standards do you base your morals on? Everyone lives by some moral and ethical standard and those that do not, they have no conscience and usually end up dead or in jail.
According to God’s word, these are the standards that I and other Christians live by. There are things that are right and things that are wrong. Yes, there are moral absolutes. Yes, I am passionate about my beliefs, but you are passionate in your unbelief.This is a polarizing issue because humanity does not want anyone telling them what they can and cannot do. They want a world without God. I assure you, that day will come. You will live to regret it.You say Nathan and I are dangerous. Sounds like what the Pharisees and the Sadducees said about Jesus just before they had him arrested and crucified. He claimed to be the Son of God and HE forgave sins. Think of it, a mere man claims to be God and forgives sins! Why, that is outrageous! Outrageous and true!Your intense anger and rage is not because of anything I have said, it is because God’s word has pierced your conscience.And RD:Just because I post why and what I believe, I am now trying to push my religious beliefs on everyone? How is my right to post different than your right or anyone elses right to post why and what you believe regarding this issue?We disagree on this issue. I’m telling you why.Y’all go ahead and tear it up.
“Everything about God and HIS word angers all of you. It’s not my POV, it is God’s POV!”
Uh, TM, are you drunk?
THAT statement is exactly the problem. Do you want lunatics like this in charge of the kansas constitution? heheh I guess 70% of you do.
Take a good look Kansas. THAT is who you are!
“You just don’t want anyone telling you what you can and cannot do.”
No fucking shit genious. Least of all YOU telling me what to do, ya delusional bastid.
“You live according to your own standards, but what are your standards based upon? By whose or what standards do you base your morals on? Everyone lives by some moral and ethical standard and those that do not, they have no conscience and usually end up dead or in jail.”
You self righteous prick. Of course we have a moral compass. Just because you think you speak for god does not mean you speak for me, or anyone else.
Jesus wept, why is this guy not in a STRAIGHT JACKET?
“They want a world without God. I assure you, that day will come. You will live to regret it”
Uh, its already here. And it doesnt look like I am the one regretting it. I’ll take my chances with god.
With you? The devil must wear a bracelet that says “what would TM do?”
“Think of it, a mere man claims to be God and forgives sins! Why, that is outrageous!”
Ya, think of it! Why would it be outrageous when a “mere man” claims to be god!!
You have a living example of it right here with TM.
Once again Kansas, and christians in particular. Is this who you are?
Looks like it to me!
hee hee hee hee
Laughing my ass off now.
TM, you just proved every point I have ever made about the evils of religion in general, and christians in particular.
many folks here have tried to tell me how WRONG I am about christians, and then along comes TM, and makes my points for me.
hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee
I cant think of one comment I have made about toxic christians that TM didnt just illustrate way better than I could have ever done.
ya. Please y’all, convince me again about how wonderful christianity is. How filled with love. How we are all welcome in christ. How non judgmental and accepting christ is as shown by his representitives here.
heheheh. You bet, I cant WAIT to get to church after hearing his screed.
Go ahead now, after such a shining example of exactly what I have been saying about christians. Go on, try, in the face of that post, to convince us that christians do good, not evil.
I doubt anyone will hear your cries in the wilderness though. TM and Nathan are loudly showing us the TRUE nature of churchs and christians.
…oh and since this WAS a thread about the ayatollah terry…
Who wants to bet that TM is a follower of the ayatollah, of the kansas taliban?
Gee, do ya suppose he learned all that christian love at the feet of taliban terry?
Take a look kansas. TERRY.JOE.FRED and TM as their spokesperson.
Arent you so proud to be associated with THESE horsemen of hate? Take a good long look in that mirror. See anyone you recognize?
heheh. But please, continue to TELL me about god’s love while you are SHOWING me what it is all about.
Y’all go ahead and tear it up
heheheheheheh
No TM, we are tearing up with tears of laughter.
You sure set a good example boy. I cant wait to worship the god you reflect….
An hour and fifteen after TM’s shining example of christianity and I am the only one condeming his hate filled post?
I see. It’s true. He really does speak for all the righteous christians out there.
KFG..Just a question.. when you speak of Christ and the devil…. are you just mocking.. or do you truly believe that one or both exist? I know you despise the “followers”… but tell me what you think about the “person” of Christ….. is He or someone like Him someone that you could respect?
I think he is a nice warm fuzzy fairy tale figure that christians like to talk about, but do very little in the way of following.
And I see you are not disagreeing with him. As I suspected, he speaks the truth about your religion.
I have said many times that the world would be a better place if everyone followed the teachings of the mythical christ.
Christ or the tale of christ is not the problem.
christians are!
KFG…If you read back.. I think I am the one that set him off.
Anyway, I believe there is much too much history to consider that Jesus was a mythical person. Even if you don’t believe he was God.. it is hard to imagine that he never existed. Even the calendar is based on his life.It is good that you at least agree with the things he taught…. like you said.. the world COULD be a much better place.
TM yours seems to be a general rant. The only poster you reference is RD. RD was not responsible for calling you and Nathan dangerous. That was me did that. Keep posting like that last of yours. Let all that Christian “love” and knowledge out. Prove me further correct.
kfg you are on fire. Just be careful who ya burn huh? Remember not ALL Christians worship at the same alter as Nathan and TM.
“Remember not ALL Christians worship at the same alter as Nathan and TM.”
Sorry buddy, but I gotta call bullshit on that one. Until they weigh in and denounce TM’s words, they are ALL on the same side.
No matter what they say. I’m looking here at what they do. And what they are NOT doing is disagreeing with TM.
TM is trying to be “faithful and obedient” and I understand that. However he is being rather vitriolic in his presentation.Personally I don’t feel that religion has any place urging votes one way or another on any given issue.We all will answer on Judgement Day for the way we choose to live our lives.
KFG,
Sorry to leave you hanging out there. I’m not the early riser you are. And I’m sorry to set poor TM off. I see it’s quiet now. His handlers must have taken him back to his room.
To address TM (if they don’t have him isolated from the rest of the population), I’m not angered by your words. You and others of your ilk seem to be a bit emotion impaired. Just because YOU’RE angry, doesn’t mean everyone else is.
No, I do not agree that it’s better for children to grow up in a totally dysfunctional family rather than with a single parent, and if you had a clue, you’d think the same way.
“Your intense anger and rage is not because of anything I have said, it is because God’s word has pierced your conscience.”
LOLOLOLOLOL Anger and rage? Intense? TM, you’re a joke. And considering your emotionally unstable outburst on this blog, I’d say my standards, ethics, and morals may very well be much higher than yours. *I* don’t try to force you to live your life by MY standards, either by constantly harrassing and preaching or by legislation.
Oh, and by the way, I was born and raised in the Catholic Church, so there’s no sense in trying to teach me about it. I know all about it, first hand.
KFG goes on a swearing rant and she sits around demanding denouncement of TM’s post?
LOL
KFG,
If you are looking for acceptance, tolerance, and someone to tell you that being Gay is not a sin I am sure there are some liberal Methodist, Episcopalian, and others out there for you.
Perhaps a Unitarian church is for you?
Unfortunately, I can’t change what the scripture says about homosexuality.
Your attitude is like a spoiled child on the subject. You scream, yell, and throw a temper tantrum anytime a Christian talks about your lifestyle being a sin and wrong.
The truth hurts sometimes and I pray that one day you will come to know Christ and repent of your sins.
RD,
There you go with forcing people to live by our standards crap again.
The issue is about government endorsement of the way KFG is already living.
We are not the ones forcing KFG or homosexuals to do anything.
They are the ones trying to force us to recognize their lifestyle.
KFG,
I’ve heard Presbyterians are open to gays and lesbians. ;)
Nathan,
Did it ever occur to you that not everyone needs a church? That all morals aren’t derived from a church? Or that even some of those who accept Christ don’t need one? My way or the highway, huh?
Nathan they are asking only for the same rights under the law that everyone else has. They are asking to be left alone by the likes of you.
I had questions for you upthread Nathan. Just for fun, what other of the benefits of Christian living would we all be better off forced to adapt?
Nathan they are asking only for the same rights under the law that everyone else has. They are asking to be left alone by the likes of you.
I had questions for you upthread Nathan. Just for fun, what other of the benefits of Christian living would we all be better off forced to adapt?
“There you go with forcing people to live by our standards crap again.”
That bothers you, does it, Nathan? So sorry. Sometimes the truth does hurt.
Were you approached by a homosexual when you were young, Nathan? Because you keep saying gays are forcing their lifestyle on you. All they want is the same partnership laws you have the right to have. Nothing more, nothing left. Oh, and probably to be left alone by the farthest right wingnuts.
You just keep thinking that gay people choose to be that way. Everybody just LOVES to be targeted by bigots.
And I see the rest of the christians here still remain silent. I guess they are giving their approval to the horsemen of hate.
Take a good look again, both christians and kansans. Nathan and TM are a TRUE reflection of the oh so generous and christian nature of this state.
Doesnt it make you proud to be in the same boat with these guys?
I think you are onto something there RD.
Nathan and TM seem to have a very defensive reaction going on. You can almost smell the fear under the sanctimony.
Are you afraid of society changing and becoming more tolerant Nathan? What is your personal stake or satisfaction in marginalizing others? Is it because you feel those such as yourself are being marginalized out of relevance?
Ya wanna talk about some hurtful truths nathan. Cool. Let’s go.
“If you are looking for acceptance, tolerance, and someone to tell you that being Gay is not a sin”
No nathan, I dont need that. From anyone. Least of all from self righteous assholes like you and TM.
Look at your life nathan. We ALL see how well that is working. And the more you protest, the more we see how miserable you really are that the whole world doesnt kiss your ass.
I dont need or even want your judgemental and bigoted approval. I would like equal protection under the law. You know, that god damn piece of paper your commander in chief wipes his ass with?
The one YOU are sworn to protect? heheh. But talking with you about the law and civil rights is like talking with Jeffry Dahmer about the nuances in the taste of human flesh.
Pointless.
We see how you view the constitution. Just like your preznit in chief. It must really piss you off to have to protect the nonbelievers just like the sheeple. How do I know it pisses you off? I see how generous you are about it.
Temper tantrum. heheheheheheh. I think that is what TM had in his frothy rant letting me know that jesus is wagging his finger at me. hee hee hee hee
And I think a tantrum is what you have, nathan, everytime your god is questioned. He must be a really weak god if that is all it requires to send you into a hissy pissy pants self righteous fit.
Temper tantrums. hee hee Would that be like one of your famous and recent meltdowns? I could post a bone dig to some of your more recent and shameful meltdowns, but why?
You know the ones, the meltdowns and the anger fits you have more frequently the closer you get to seeing death? The ones the purple chicken laughs at behind your back? You know, those NATHAN tantrums.
You are such a fool you dont even know what a laughing stock you are. Or how people have been taking it easy on you and your bigotry.
We feel sorry for you about to go into combat, so we lay off you. You think it is because you are making such great arguments?
heheheh. Nope. You are too pathetic right now for anyone to respond. I dont feel one bit sorry for you now. I did, but not now.
You get whatever you deserve nathan, and I think you are about to get it good. heheheheheheheh
I see how many people you have turned on to god here. And to america and to your glorious revolution. Nice work. Glad you arent on MY side.
Do YOU ever wonder how many you have turned off? Of course not. If they dont see it your way, they arent worth saving, right? Just like they arent worth dying for? heheheheheh
Do you think god is gonna say “well done” to you and tm after the things you have said and the things you have done?
Are YOU the example of christ? If so, then kansassam, you have your answer.
I think if I believed the things you SAY you do, I’d be getting my own house in order, not throwing stones at others ever harder and faster. But then, I’m not a CHRISTIAN like you.
You think you worship god? Heheh. No nathan, much like TM, you think you ARE god. I cant wait for you to get the lesson on THAT point.
And I see that when you are infalliable, that is the way it goes. No self examination. No thinking. Just blind hatred and conviction of your own superiority.
You expressed it so well here. God must be proud.
heheheheheh
The close nathan gets to combat, the nastier and more judgemental he gets. What a shining example of that christian love and faith in god.
You wouldnt be scared now would ya boy? You wouldnt be having second thoughts about fighting bush’s war on oil, would ya?
How’s your god working for ya nathan? I see it in your attitude everyday how you honor him by trashing anyone who disagrees with you.
I see how confident you are in his protection by how nasty you are to everyone who does not share your views. I guess that fear you have is why you get more hateful and mean every day.
Must be tough to fight for people you hate. Must be tough to be the smartest man on earth and then getting duped into dying for oil and for bush. And for queers like me.
And even taliban terry cant save you now, can he? Nope, your fate is sealed. And you want to be angry at us? heheheheheh
Wow! Did I already say KFG was on a child like tantrum of name calling and swearing?
KFG,
This is a blog where people come to share their opinions, debate, discuss, and spam like trolls…etc.
That is what I do here. I give my opinion and debate on things.
I think you and JR have a real hard time differentiating between the debate and discussion of ideas here and the real world.
All I can say is “Where is the love”?
KFG.. my answer to what?
Yeah nathan. You are infalliable. You must be right.
You have no idea the contempt with which people regard you. And you wonder why someone might spit on a soldier? I would have NEVER considered such a thing until I met you. Now? Every soldier I see I will wonder if he is a self righteous bigot with a gun.
Just like you.
The next time I want to know what god thinks, I’ll skip the prayers and come right to you.
Except…Oh, that’s right. You will be fighting for oil and queers like me. You wont be available.
I’ll just have to go to the lesser god, TM until you get back.
Kansassam, if nathan and TM, terry and joe, et.al. are the living examples of christ, I think you know my opinion of that “christ”.
“and you will know them by their…” what?
their attitudes? their works? their words?
heheheh. Yeah. I see. I know. If that is the christ you speak of, I think I’ll CONTINUE to take a pass.
I cant stand that much hate in my life.
Sam,”I believe there is much too much history to consider that Jesus was a mythical person.”You are assuming a definition here that “myth”=”lie.” I have no reason to doubt that Yeshua ben Yousef was an actual person who preached in the area of the Dead Sea close on to 2000 years ago. The journey from this itinerant preacher to the conceptualized Jesus of today has been a long and twisting road. For every generation since he preached, he was an entirely different person, whose message was interpreted in the entirely different light of that generation’s experience, and that changed message became the starting point for the next generation, and so was mythologized over the centuries to the point that the original person and message are now completely inaccessible. The Jesus you believe in is so different from the Jesus of a thousand years ago that he constitutes anoher person, and that Jesus was equally as distant from the Jesus that early christians worshipped. Maybe his words stayed the same (or maybe not), but the light by which they were read then is totally different today, and any attempt to recapture that light is unfortunately guesswork. We do the same thing to all our great figures. In the process of trying to emulate them, we also make them more like us in order to try to understand them.
One more thing before I go to work.
You all have seen the true face of nathan here.
If, to the people of the middle east, NATHAN is the face of america and americans…
…you have to ASK why they hate us?
Nathan?
“I think you and JR have a real hard time differentiating between the debate and discussion of ideas here and the real world.”
Huh?
Do you mean to suggest Nathan that you are something different from what you portray here? You are defined some other way outside this forum? I mean it is the real world that is discussed here…….at least by MOST posters. Are you suggesting otherwise as to yourself?
I forgot to add:
This is a blog, specifically one about Terry Fox and homosexual marriage.
What did you expect fo find here KFG?
Of course there are going to be Christians talking about what the Bible says.
Once again I will point out that I am not in every thread posting about how homosexuality is wrong like Ed does with Israel.
I only bring the stuff up when it is the topic or someone else does.
KFG,
You pretend like you are just now figuring out my opinion on this subject. You and I have had several discussion with I think everyone of them ending with you calling me names and going off on your tantrums like this one.
And the HATE amendment is the real world for me and mine.
It isnt some freakin’ game you play, like the “left behind” video warriors play. blowing away the non believers.
I bet that is what gets you excited about going to iraq. blowing away the non believers.
I wonder if you will still think it is just a game, not the real world, the first time you are sprayed with blood.
Will that be real enough? Or only if it is INFIDEL blood?
And we wonder why they hate us….
Wanna post tantrum bone digs?
You first smart boy.
I have your finest moments book marked.
wanna see ‘em again so you can bring even MORE people to jesus?
Jed..In light of the gnostic writings and some texts that did not appear in the earliest manuscripts, I can see where you are coming from. I truly MUST believe that by the power of an Almighty God, that the “essence” of the God-Man Jesus has never changed. If Christians do not believe that, our faith and hope are meaningless. Anyway.. I DO know that as much as some try to make him more like “us”… the Jesus that I worship would never act like we do!
I think folks like Fox and Nathan are afraid.
They are afraid because everything they believe in is fading away.
Consider that in just 50 years the science of evolution replaced the mysticism of creation in the schools.
Consider that prayer was once a an everyday thing in schools and it has since been approriately removed.
Consider the gains in the rights of women which flies in the face of Christian belief that women should be submissive to men.
I think SOME Christians are afraid and figure they better counter attack before it is too late.
BUt it is already too late.
And as usual KFG goes into self debate mode…
JR,
Christians have nothing against “womans rights” and if you actually read the Bible and knew what it said you would see that it also commands husbands to do things to honor their wives to.
Of course don’t let the little things like actually understanding stand in your way of trying to label Christians with lies.
34″Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’¬†37″Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’¬†40″The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’¬†41″Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’¬†44″They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’¬†45″He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’¬†46″Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
*****
The fundamentalists want to distinguish between who they can help: the sick, okay; the homos, not okay; the divorced, okay; the lesbian, not okay.
They don’t worship God. They want to BE God, separating the sheep and the goats themselves.
In their arrogance, they build their house upon the sand.
Anybody know where I can get a couple of slaves?
I want to follow Paul’s suggestion that a slave should obey his master.
I could really use a couple of slaves. Got some big fix up projects going on and I hate climbing to the top of a 20 foot ladder.
RedRad….
Oh please!!!! You are painting with a pretty big sloppy brush there…….
I don’t recall EVER asking someone their orientation, political party, etc. before giving them help.
Sorry, KSsam, I was directing it at Nathan.
I agreed with your post.
Sorry about the confusion . . . carry on . . .
RedRad…No problem.. but truthfully.. I don’t know too many Christians that really act that way in day to day activities. I would guess that Nathan doesn’t either.. he did say that he has gay friends.. friends usually means they must like him…..
Time to go…. TGIF!!!!!
sanctimonious:
adj : excessively or hypocritically pious;
Feigning piety or righteousness: “a solemn, unsmiling, sanctimonious old iceberg that looked like he was waiting for a vacancy in the Trinity” (Mark Twain).
Yeah, that’s the word that comes to mind, all right.
Everyone,
In the “real world” I am a very pleasant and nice person. I love to help people. I have been told that my spiritual gifting is service for others.
I don’t like to swear, My father and mom taught me good manners, and I love to laugh and have a good time.
This is a blog, a place to debate, we are in a thread about Terry Fox and Homosexuality. Once again, what did you expect to find here f not Christians… talking about what they believe.
Stop with the persecution act already.
I would help anyone in need regardless of their lifestyle. Of course “help” is loosly defined, before you start trying to come up with what ever situation you can to stump me…
I just want to thank kansassam for showing us all what a real Christian should be. I don’t claim to know what is in God’s mind (if, indeed He has a mind), but Sam is what I believe God seemed to want in His followers. Thank you, Sam.
There are others, too, but I think you know who you are, so I won’t add names.
And, Nathan, for the record, no matter what, you are and will be in my prayers…even though they aren’t the kind of prayers you might condone.
I agree with you, Nathan, if you define help as pulling someone out of a burning building.
But what you have to understand is that not allowing a gay person to get married, not hiring a gay person, not allowing them to serve in the military (even as translators) is discrimination and that hurts them.
If you are part of the group that discriminates, then you have to see that is contrary to the teaching of Jesus, in my view.
He didn’t say we had to be kind only to the people we like, “for even the gentiles do that.” The true test of a Christian is to accept the people we don’t like and don’t approve of.
RedRad,
The only issue I am discussing is marriage.
Talking about homosexuals in the military is a whole different issue.
If you want to talk about the teachings fo Jesus then I need to know where you get your information on those from?
KFGNot that it makes any difference to you, but I am a lady, not a man.
RedRad,
You have to pass Nathan’s test. He did the same with me, thinking that because I am non-Christian (NOT anti-Christian as some would like to believe), I know nothing about the religion, the Bible, or Christ’s life and teachings. While it is true that I am not a Bible scholar, I have a basis in Christianity, so I do know something about it. When I don’t know, I have trustworthy and non-condemning friends I can ask.
I wish you luck.
Why is it that EVERYTIME I hear someone badmouthing or trying to take away the rights of lesbians and gays, they always say, “some of my best friends are gay” or as Nathan puts it, “I have several wonderful friends who choose to be homosexuals too.” Thats a load of bullcrap because if they are your friends and you truly care about them, there is no way you would actively be trying to restrict their civil rights and stop them from living a happy and fullfilling life. With friends like Nathan, who needs enemies?!? The exception may be TM, I haven’t seen in her posts that she has any gay friends. She may actually be the lesser hypocrite of the two!
JeffinKS,
People keep saying that I hate homosexuals. I don’t.
I have never used that word once. Almost every time we talk about this I say over and over again that I don’t hate homosexuals.
I only brought up that I have friends who are gay because of that.
Oh well, no matter what I say it will be used against me.
I am accused of hating gays, so I defend myself.
I defend myself and then get made fun of for it.
Did you have anything fruitful to bring to the discussion JeffinKS?
Yes, Jeff. Remember, Nathan hates the sin, not the sinner.
“People keep saying that I hate homosexuals. I don’t.”Boy, Nathan is so far in denial that he attracts crocodiles!
JeffinKS:I have homosexual friends at work and outside of work.They know what I believe and they know that I love them and I know they love me. I have gay/lesbian friends I go to lunch with periodically. We agree to disagree on this issue, but we are friends and we care about and care for one another.
I have a friend whose husband divorced her to go live with his lovers in the homosexual lifestyle, leaving her with 3 kids to raise by herself.And I guess you can call me a hypocrite too. I am a hypocrite because I don’t condone the legislation of SPECIAL rights and privileges for a chosen alternative lifestyle? You have “Civil” rights, but the rights and privileges under Marriage belong to one man/one woman relationships.Let’s ask this question again:If marital rights and privileges are made law for alternative lifestyles, for whom do those rights begin and end? Does it end with just gay/lesbian relationships? What about polygamists? Alternative lifestyle has a broad definition.Tell me, where would it end? What if a heterosexual, a bisexual, a gay and a lesbian all want to be married as a four-some?Where does it end?There would be no end to the debauchery. Isn’t that the real agenda? Anything goes?Also, I have not seen the word “Hate” in any of Nathan’s postings. The only HATE and HATEFUL words I have read have come from KFG.To KFG:You sound as though you know parts of the Bible. It would bless your life and be an encouragement to you to read it more. The PSALMS are full of encouragement.How about Psalms 139:O Lord, YOU have searched me and known me, You know my sitting down and my rising up, You understand my thoughts afar off, You comprehend my path and my lying down, And are acquainted with all my ways, For there is not a word on my tongue, But behold, O Lord, You know it altogether. You have hedged me behind and before and laid Your hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; It is high and I cannot attain it.
Just a sample of all the ways God loves us and cares for us.KFG, regardless of what you do or don’t believe, the Bible is still a Great Read.
“Tell me, where would it end? What if a heterosexual, a bisexual, a gay and a lesbian all want to be married as a four-some?”A gay man who lived in KhartoumTook a lesbian up to his room.They argued all nightOver who had the rightTo do what, and with which, and to whom!Nathan,So your group wants a foursome? And how exactly does this affect your life and possible marriage? I’m sure you find such an arrangement almost as disgusting as I find your religious rants. If that’s to be the standard, then I vote to outlaw your tantrums!
Excuse me Nathan, that comment should have been directed at TM.
Hey TM,”But behold, O Lord, You know it altogether. You have hedged me behind and before and laid Your hand upon me.”Sounds like a homosexual rape to me!
Y’know, on several threads now, I’ve asked for a reasoned answer to why marriage has to be defined the christian way. All I want is a logical, thought-through answer, backed up by legitimate evidence. I haven’t got one yet- lotsa sound bites and bible verses and propaganda, but not one legitimate answer. I can only assume that either they don’t have one, or they wouldn’t know a logical answer if it bit’em on the ass! Probably some of both.So come on all you good christians, give me a good reason why denying gay people the right to marry is necessary. And be sure to back it up with actual evidence. The challenge has been made.
If you’re here to state your beliefs on who’s right in God’s eye, and who the sinners are, IMHO you really missed the whole point of the teachings from Christ.He who would be first, will be last.
And I grew up in a Christian community who prays to “Allah.” Is that a sin?
Besides, how do we know for sure that the Bible is the unerrant Words of God? Were there any witnesses? Did they all appear in all languages at the same time, or if not, which has the 1st edition?
Personally, I believe literal interpretation of the Bible is the straightest boulevard to the Abyss.
Tracy,
Nice verse. It was part of Jesus and the rich young ruler. How it applies to this thread I am not sure. I suppose it sounds kind of good so you just threw it out there?
Roo haa,
If they are praying to Allah then how are they Christians?
I figure you are just trying to be cute and say that Allah is just another word for God…
“And I grew up in a Christian community who prays to “Allah.” Is that a sin?”
Roo, no offence intended…would you please expand on that? Being a Christian myself, that sounds odd.
“I’ve asked for a reasoned answer to why marriage has to be defined the christian way. All I want is a logical, thought-through answer, backed up by legitimate evidence. I haven’t got one yet- lotsa sound bites and bible verses and propaganda, but not one legitimate answer. I can only assume that either they don’t have one, or they wouldn’t know a logical answer if it bit’em on the ass!”Jed:If you read and believed what the Bible has to say about marriage, divorce, unnatural affection/homosexuality, liars, cowards, murderers etc. we wouldn’t need to give you bible verses.By the way, an FYI, my Daddy was a blood bought, born again, Southern Baptist Preacher who use to say, “A man convinced against his will is of the same mind still.”There is no convincing any of you who won’t seek out what God’s word has to say. You’re right, I could quote scripture indefinitely and you would still be of the same opinion.Either you believe the Word of God or you don’t. And it is OK if you don’t! That is your choice. Thank God we have choices!I choose to believe God.That is the beauty of how God created us. He wants us to choose to love HIM and serve HIM, you know, free will.I can’t make it any simpler than that.
If God is all-knowing, he knows what you’ll choose. Is that free will?
RD,
You bring up an interesting theological point.
Predestination is a tricky subject to discuss with even Bible scholars let alone between you and I and people on this blog.
To keep it simple:
The mere fact of knowing what you choose before you choose it and still creating you that way doesn’t preclude you from making that choice because you were still given the oppurtunity to choose it.
LOL
TM,As I have already stated numerous times, I am not a christian, nor do I desire to become one, so trying to palm off a christian prejudice as a reasoned answer cuts no ice with me. This is a secular country, not a theocracy, in case you hadn’t noticed. Laws have to have some basis in reason. You still haven’t answered the question!
Jed,
I hate to burst your bubble, but theocracy is based on reason too.
This may be a secular country, but it is also a representative republic. If a mojority of the people who hold a world view based on Christianity vote for and support people in office to represent them then that is what happens.
Having a world view based on Christianity makes it no less valid than your world view being based on secular humanism or whatever else it is you believe.
Thinking such as yours can lead to a very dangerous place Nathan.
Question:
If a society holds that ones rights are “granted by God” and one openly professes that God does not exist, does that person forfeit their rights?
What about a person who does believe in God but has a faith not in lockstep with the majority? Would it be argued that person has forfeited their rights?
Best not to casually think on theocracy Nathan.
JR,
I don’t support theocracy. I wouldn’t want one. My statement was in regard to Jed’s implication that it is not founded on reason. If Jed looked up the meaning of the word he would probably realize that too. However, it was just another jab to say there is not reason to religion.
Anyhow,
I suppose I left out this part:
We are a constitutional representative republic.
There are rights, in the Bill of rights, which everyone has and are not given nor can be taken away.
Of all the Christians I have known and associate with no one wants or supports a Christian theocracy.
What we support are leaders who share our values and laws which reflect what we believe to be right. Just like anyone else. The only difference is that we call ourselves Christians and I don’t know what you call yourself.
The mere fact that I believe in God and all my world view comes from that fact alone, doesn’t make my opinions or whom I support any less valid that your not believing in God.
LOL on the predestination question, Nathan. I didn’t really expect a clear answer, and, of course, my eyes are crossing from yours. Not that it was bad, just…well, the whole thing is rather on the rhetorical side, I guess. I’ll give you points for an exceptional try at it.
RD,
My hobbie is to study apologetics. I love studying not only different religions but different denominations of Christianity too.
About 5 years ago I had a Lt. who was a theology major and he and I used to discuss predestination all the time.
It is a difficult discussion to have with devout Christians let alone skeptics.
JED:YOU tell us WHY marriage should be defined everyone else’s way except by how it has been for the last 6000 years?You believe you are intelligent and logical.The laws of our land are based upon the 10 Commandments. Please note: God did not call them “suggestions”.Should we remove all law and order because a percentage of the population feels their civil rights are being violated because of those laws?AND…. Please don’t call me “prejudice”. For someone who has no clue WHO God is and what a real relationship with Jesus Christ is all about and doesn’t want to know, the word prejudice is invalid. However, you, my friend, are the one who is prejudiced because of your lack of knowledge of WHO Jesus Christ is, NOT ABOUT Jesus and Christianity, but a personal relationship with HIM and following HIS word.
TM- WOW!!- I don’t know if the drug is new or the dosge has changed. You might need to call someone!!
I do appreciate the entertainment thru modern chemistry!
Did you have something fruitful to add Gster?
If you disagree, feel free to jump into the discussion instead of just throwing insults.
Nathan:I appreciate your posts.You are much more tactful in your communication than I am.It serves you well.
Gster:I’m happy to be entertaining to you, because that means you read what I post.
TM–
Adam had more than one wife. So did a lot of the patriarchs of the Old Testament.
Who was it had to marry Leah before he could marry Sarah? Jacob?
Anyway, in the South Sea Islands which for some reason has a shortage of women, they practice polyandry or more than one husband.
American Indians allowed men to dress as women and become squaws. It was not at all uncommon.
Islam of course allows for multiple wives as does a number of traditional Asian and African societies.
Your idea of marriage is wholly culture bound to America.
Not only do you impose it on the rest of the world, you impose it on your fellow Christians.
But I can’t blame you really. Pastors like Terry Fox do their level best to conflate conservative political views and American culture with the Christian religion.
CapnAmerica:It’s one thing to be ignorant of or not heard or have access to God’s word and completely another to KNOW what it says and disobey it and hold it in contempt.
Okay, it WAS Jacob, the one who stole his brother’s birthright.
Looks like he also had some kids by Leah’s two maids as well as the two wives.
Well . . . after all . . . they had no TV back then . . .
Nathan, Will all respect- I was being flippant. But to answer your question, no one has ever had anything to add to a discussion that you comsidered or treated as fruitful, that’s the first Nathan filter. You have consistantly shown that your mind is hermeticaly sealed, and that’s why most people on this blog ignore you. You’re a nice guy, but an empty suit, or in this instance, an empty BDU.As always, when across the pond, watch your 6!!Vioya con Dios!!
Does the New Testament ever say that a marriage can only be one man to one woman?
Cause I don’t remember that verse . . .
Clearly, the Old Testament did NOT say that.
Also, there’s a lot in Paul of men should just stay away from icky, lustful women, period.
For example 1 Corinthians 7–
1Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
. . .
7For I would that all men were [chaste] even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.
8I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide [chaste] even as I.
9But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.”
So, even married hetro sex really isn’t all that good or anything, but still if you must have it, then get married.
Or as St. Jerome put it so quaintly, “better a woman be married and a whore to one man, than unmarried and a whore to many.”
Okay CapnAmerica:I relent.For the last 2000 years, not 6000.And…. God hasn’t changed HIS mind since then.What say you?
TM-You confuse nausea with entertainment, there is a BIG difference.I hope you find youself, wherever you are going.
TM–
Sorry?
The question is “where in the New Testament does it say that marriage is only between a man and a woman?” And not between a man and two women, let’s say?
Jesus says that anyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, but the Immanuel Baptist Church is full of divorced “adulterers” and you all don’t seem to have a bit of a problem with that.
As far as the New Testament goes, one can use it to make a case, as in the passage by Paul, that marriage is in itself not ideal.
It also supports slave ownership (”a slave should obey his master”), which we now believe to be the worst kind of sin.
So even if the Bible were free of the biases of the age and culture in which it were written, which it clearly isn’t, it still would not be suitable as a basis of US law.
” . . . the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion . . .” John Adams and approved by the full Senate, 1797, Treaty of Tripoli
TM,
I must warn you, before you engage in a scriptual battle with someone you need to ask them what their intentions are or what they are seeking.
In this instance, I am willing to bet that CapnAmerica has no pupose to come learning, only to try to stump you.
I have been doing this for sometime with people around here. I try to keep my replies with them limited.
What was it Jesus said?
“Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.”
I believe there is another verse in Proverbs about engaging in a debate with a fool too…
CapnAmerica:Mark 10: 1-12Matthew 19: 3-9In the afore-mentioned verses, Jesus says that marriage and divorce is between a man and his wife, not WIVES, not HUSBANDS.”Jesus says that anyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, but the Immanuel Baptist Church is full of divorced “adulterers” and you all don’t seem to have a bit of a problem with that.”Jesus actually said in Matthew 19:9 “And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.”His disciples then say, “IF such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry.’Jesus replied, “All cannot accept this saying, only those whom IT has been given.”IT, we in the Christian community believe, is a gift of”Singleness”.
You might also qualify certain bounds too.
You need to know if they will accept what the Bible has to say when they are quoting from it.
All too often they find some verse throw it at you and as soon as you reply then the Bible is not valid…
It is a matter of futility.
Thank you Nathan.Your warning is wise and I will be careful to heed it.God Bless you!
Gee- Can I pass the hat now?
Thank you again Nathan.Yes, I understand that.But we are Christians who know Gods word because we LOVE it, not to use it as a club to hurt.I noticed “Out of context” and “misquoting” going on a lot.I don’t like to split hairs, but I wish to make a point, whether they accept it or not.Thanks again!
And you want to say what Gster?
I love how these self-righteous Christians think anytime a liberal like myself quotes scripture “we don’t believe it.”
You don’t know what I believe, so don’t even try.
Okay, good, “if a man divorce his wife,” well, this assumes that a wife would never want nor have the power to divorce her husband.
I’m guessing that probably sums up the cultural role of women of the time pretty well . . . men can divorce their wives and chase after some pretty young thing (”forget not the wife of your youth”), but the other way around is impossible.
Of course, now to say that only men can divorce would be the height of discrimination against women, wouldn’t it?
What’s my point?
How we interprete right and wrong–that is, the mind of God–changes as our culture changes. We can see it happening in the Bible itself: the Old Testament allowed polygymy and concubinage and the New apparently doesn’t. The Old forbade the eating of pork and The New permits it. Both the Old and the New Testament seem to permit slavery, however.
As our culture changes, we reinterprete the scriptures. That’s not to say that God changes, but our values DO change.
The people of the Bible changed their customs and beliefs. Modern Christians permit divorce in a way that Christians never would have two generations ago.
Did you see the movie “Man In Black” in which June Carter is told she’s going to hell for being a divorce.
I can remember when good Christian women DIDN’T WEAR MAKEUP! Boy, has THAT changed (Tammy Faye Baaker)!
What we know about sexuality and homosexuality is different than what Paul knew.
It would be just silly not to reinterprete our response to scripture in view of our information from our own time.
TM,In case you’re interested, even though I am non-christian, I have studied the bible (along with the Qurun and the Bagavad-Gita. I’ve pretty much given up on the Vedas).As far as calling you prejudiced, given the tiny percentage of scripture supposedly devoted to the subject of homosexuality, I find it hard to believe that the RR’s emphasis on it is biblical in origin, so I assume that other factors of prejudice and politics have to be involved. I might mention that Jesus said nothing at all regarding homosexuality, yet he warned constantly about the accumulation of wealth- a subject that I have never found a sermon addressing! Given the advent of megachurches with budgets of many millions of dollars, I can understand why they wouldn’t wish to call attention to that aspect of Jesus’ teachings, and direct attention elsewhere.There are a lot of sins denoted in the religious writings of the world. Your singling out gay people for your attentions leads me to believe that you are trying to divert attention from your own sins by playing on the prejudices of others. Which makes you either a bigot or a hypocrite; take your choice!
“What we know about sexuality and homosexuality is different than what Paul knew.”What is different about this SIN today from what it was in Paul’s day and culture?Sin is sin. God doesn’t condone any of it. He allowed divorce because of the “HARDNESS OF THEIR HEARTS”. He allowed Solomon to have concubines, thousands of them and what did Solomon say about that, “All is vanity.” It was all in vain.King David committed adultery and murder.So what, he committed sin just like the rest of us sinners.The difference is, he recognized they were sins and he confessed and repented of them.So are you saying because of our culture today, God would allow for homosexual marriage, not condone it, but allow it??If so, I have to respectfully disagree. I know what the Bible teaches and your ideology is not in there.
TM-Thee Sin tax, unless you don’t think that it applies.
1. When Jacob worked 7 years for Leah and another 7 for Sarah and another 6 FOR SOME CATTLE (!), he didn’t think it was a sin at all.
When Paul says that “a slave should obey his master,” he is not saying that slavery is sin–he is saying slavery is an acceptable institution.
Do you think that slavery is sin, TM?
And if you do, why didn’t Paul?
2. Your reading of Christ’s admonition against divorce is incorrect. It was MOSES who allowed divorce “because of the hardness of their hearts,” Jesus rejected it by saying it was no less than adultery.
The church “allows” divorce now, not because it isn’t a SIN, which it clearly is, but because it’s too common to really stop or sanction.
3. Jed is exactly right. You fundies pick and choose which verses you want to follow and which ones you conveniently ignore. Divorce, ignore. Homosexuality, rail against. Love of money is evil, ignore. Premartial sex, rail against. Cheat on your income taxes, ignore. Don’t support the latest war, rail against.
That’s not a war, it’s a slaughter.
JED”I might mention that Jesus said nothing at all regarding homosexuality,”Jesus did not address it, but GOD established it in Leviticus 18:22″You shall not lie with a male as with a woman.”And Paul addresses it in Romans 1:24-32″Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts (Sounds like free-will to me), to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for THE lie and worshiped and served the creature (Satan)(Paganism)(Homosexuality)rather than the CREATOR, who is BLESSED forever, AMEN. For this reason, God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men, committing what is shameful and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.”VS 28-32 of Romans not added here, but you can read it. God’s Word speaks for itself.Jesus spoke often about money, not wealth, and more often about our attitude towards it rather than how much of it we have.
Also…”Your singling out gay people for your attentions leads me to believe that you are trying to divert attention from your own sins by playing on the prejudices of others.”This is an invalid point.This is a blog regarding Terry Fox’s so called “Better Agenda”, a place of discussion and debate over the Marriage amendment.
Capn:You’re splitting hairs.I won’t debate scripture.It speaks for itself without any help from you, me or anyone else.
So keep it in your church TM.
CapnAmerica,
I have a question for you, do you believe what the Bible says to be true?
I see you quoting scripture, do you do it because you believe what it says or only because you think you have found something to stump us “fundies” with?
The topic of this thread is HOMOSEXUALITY.
If there was a topic on divorce, I would be there saying how it is sin and wrong.
You will never hear me say that loving money is good. If anythimg I would say all of the churches I have been to have spoken more about the love of money than homosexuality.
The thing you fail to see is living in sin and committing a sinful act.
There is a difference.
Homosexuality is a sinful lifestyle. If is constant sinning without repentence and without acknowledging it as wrong.
If I lie/cheat/steal one time and I realize what I did was wrong and ask for forgiveness and repent it is much different than if I constantly steal, refuse to repent, and continue to live a life of theft.
Divorce is a one time act, it happens and it is done. Homosexuality is a lifestyle contrary to God’s word.
Both are wrong and I don’t know of any church that takes divorce lightly like you all here keep trying to make it sound.
You are right about one thing and that is culture and context. Slavery was an accepted practice back then by the culture.
Do I think slavery is a sin? No.
Most slavery was a form of endentured servitude. The Bible constantly speaks of treating slaves good and not abusing them.
Again, it was an acceptable practice then. I don’t think it is good now nor do I think the Bible somehow endorses it.
However, homosexuality is clearly spoken of in both the New and Old Testament as being an abomination and a sin.
There is not much grey area on the clear cut nature of what the Bible says about it.
Your attempting to try to mix the Bible speaking of slavery and the cultural context of it with homosexuality in an attempt to say we “fundies” ignore scripture or it doesn’t apply anymore.
I have yet to see you show us any scripture we are ignoring.
Please, show me the scriptures you keep saying we are ignoring or picking and choosing.
When it comes to the Bible, I don’t know it all, and if I am missing something I will correct myself. I am willing to change and will admit I am wrong if what I am saying is not in God’s word.
Maybe Fox will join Fox news!
Maybe Fox will join Fox news!
And you Nathan with that last just equated homosexual love with criminal acts! “Lie, cheat, steal”
Ya know what Nathan and (TM as well) I’ve NEVER been hurt by a homosexual! I know 2 and they are both warm and friendly people.
My experience with evangelical Christians has been somewhat different in life AND on this blog. On the blog side you would be included.
JR,
How have I hurt you? I am sorry for your bad experiences, but in my experience people are people.
In all realms of life there are good people and bad. I don’t think everyone who claims to be an evangelical is being nice or doing what is right.
I too have wonderful friends who are gay. I have wonderful friends who are Christians.
I know some people who are evangelical Christians who really hurt me and treated me like crap too. I am still an evangelical Christian though and have many wonderful supportive friends who are too.
Some people are just not nice or good no matter who they are.
JR,
I equate homosexuality with sin. I think telling lies, cheating, or stealing is a sin.
I place no value on any of them since it is all sin and all wrong.
Murder is sin too JR. Guess what else? Being a sociopathic homicidal maniac is a sin too.
I suppose you can say I have now “equated” them all to homosexuality…
Ya know what Nathan? Kfg does not know your “god”. She only knows that there are folks like you who take great pleasure in telling her that the love she feels in her heart for another human being is so wrong that a state Constitutional amendment was needed to outlaw it. Don’t deny you take pleasure in that. I can do bonedigs that show you sticking your thumb in her eye and posting “You are not going to be allowed to marry kfg. Period”
I don’t know your God either. But as a single father of a son whose mother I did not marry I gotta wonder if I’m next on your list of sinners to address with legislation.
TM,”Jesus did not address it, but GOD established it in Leviticus 18:22″If that’s the case, why don’t you give equal time to all the other proscriptions in leviticus? I have yet to hear about a constitutional amendment banning stay-press shirts or football, or about a proposed death penalty for cussing out your parents, or for that matter, for committing adultery. You seem fixated on those 11 words to the exclusion of the whole rest of the book. So, what’ll it be; are you bigots or hypocrites?
“Divorce is a one time act, it happens and it is done.”
Totally wrong, Nathan. The people who divorce and marry again continually enjoy the fruit of their sin.
You can’t steal a million dollars and put it in your bank account and spend it as needed and pray for forgiveness and continue to spend and enjoy the money.
But that’s what divorced people do. They continue to live with their new spouse.
How can they be forgiven when they continue in the same sin?
As for your assertion that churches don’t take divorce seriously . . . well, they don’t.
How many churches wouldn’t hire a divorced pastor?
I’m guessing Immanuel Baptist Church is a lot more likely to hire a divorced man than a married woman. A homosexual man of course would be out of the question.
Do I think the Bible is “true”? Well, yes, but not like you think the Bible is true.
You think that everything in the Bible is perfectly logical and consistant. This is patently false.
When you look at how God is portrayed in the oldest part of the Old Testament, He is like a Greek god. He changes his mind, he is whimsical, he says things that aren’t true. “For the day that thou eatest of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, thou shalt surely die.”
Guess what? Adam and Eve eat the fruit, and they don’t die.
I think the Bible is true to the extent that it can explain the ineffable, unknowable mind of the creator of the universe to the tiny mind of the human being.
JR,
The issue is marriage. I am not stopping KFG from loving anyone. I don’t support the government endorsing it with marriage.
If I was stopping her from loving someone then she wouldn’t be in love now would she?
Once again, you fail to address the ACTUAL issue.
As far as my discussion with KFG go, I have been a bit direct with her. I have even purposefully written things in a way I knew would upset her. I should be much more loving with my words, I do admit. Everything I said was true though.
Do I take pleasure in knowing that homosexual marriage is not legal? Sure, why wouldn’t I, it is what I support.
I don’t take pleasure that she is hurt or suffering. I truely do wish she would come to know God and repent of her sins and have a happy life.
TM,
You mentioned that our laws are based on the 10 Commandments. That’s stretching it a bit, don’t you think? In fact, only 3 of the 10 are a part of our laws. Those would be:#6 Do not kill#8 Do not steal#9 Do not falsely accuse (which pretty much is your ‘do not lie’)
Those, and only those, are used in our laws. So, 3 out of 10. Would you say that’s a majority of the commandments?
Let’s take a look at the 7 that aren’t law.
#1 No other gods.Seeing as the 1st Ammendment pertains to not establishing religion, I guess this one isn’t a law. “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion”
#2 Do not make idols.Again, no laws about this. In fact, if there were a law, the Catholics would be in trouble, or at least that’s what some Protestants believe.
#3 Do not take the Lord’s name in vain.No laws that I know about this one, although socially, it isn’t acceptable to some.
#4 Keep the Sabbath Day holy.In the past, this one was a law in many areas of the country, but it’s pretty much gone by the wayside these days. Then, too, which Sabbath Day are we talking about? Depends on the religion, and that’s cover in the 1st Ammendment.
#5 Honor your parentsOther than abuse, which is doing physical harm to another and is a part of law, this is a no, too.
#7 Do not commit adulteryUh, no. If it were a law, jails would line the streets.
#10 Do not covetSince the law can’t know my heart or mind, only my actions, this one is pretty tough to legislate, wouldn’t you agree?
Glad to see you acknowledge that you have been purposely hurtful to kansasfarmgrrl Nathan. Aside from answering that from you and “yours” I’ve never seen her be purposely hurtful.
We ALL push “hot” buttons to “blow up” posters of a different bent here Nathan. I’ve done it myself and to you. Sometimes it gets done to me. Personally? I TRY to leave matters of love and faith out of it.
Apologize to her not me. While you are at it, explain to her:
“Do I take pleasure in knowing that homosexual marriage is not legal? Sure, why wouldn’t I, it is what I support.I don’t take pleasure that she is hurt or suffering.”
Because here Nathan you are contradicting yourself. And it is just yourself you mention.You mention youself “I” four times. Now to be fair you do follow with a refernce to God.
Was that an afterthought?
I’ll afford you that no it wasn’t. I think you are grounded in your faith enough that you are truly in your way concerned about a friend you see gone “astray”. I hope in calling you out as I did above I prevent you taking “pleasure” in the future from baiting one of “the lost”.
But you see? It is her CHOICE to be “astray” and “lost”. Just as it is mine.
Nathan in the garden of Eden, God told Adam and Eve not to eat of the “tree of knowledge” (I may be wrong my phraseology here) But God put that tree there. He didn’t have to. He gave an admonished “choice”. HE “punished” a wrong decision. There were no other humans or other agents to do this.
This is the lesson I would try to teach to evangelical Chrtistians. Say “Do what you want but I want to tell you that God said ….” and leave it at that! Stay out of the laws and the schools and the courts. No one goes there looking for God. They are just looking for justice or knowldedge there.
I myself am faithless. Except that I in my own way try to help my fellow man and hope for the same consideration. To me, “faith” is acceptance of dogma that someone preaches. Truth and the search for it is a different thing.
I tuned in to brother Terry or rather “Immanuel” about an hour ago. I hoped I would see Terry Fox and his “resignation”. I wanted to understand. Instead, there was a rerun of a ranter from last week.
People search for truth Nathan. Whether this is from god or by way of evolution to survive we can debate. What is NOT debatable is that each of us must find “the truth” or our “truth”. If it is sold or forced on anyone it loses something in the transaction.
A lot of thought and time went to my last. RD posted while I was working mine out.
Good post RD.
JR,
I disagree. There are many people around the world right now who have come to know Christ because they were not left alone to figure it our for themselves.
I have been more understanding and nice to KFG in my posting than she has ever been to me.
You can look above to see that.
It is not a contradiction for me to be happy that the things I support pass and not happy that people are hurt by it.
When you punish your son are you happy that he is hurting? Or do you do it that he becomes better? Do you even punish him at all?
You do what you think is right, but you don’t take pleasure in the harm it causes, you hope(pray) that in the end things are for the better.
Nathan,
Back to the predistination thing…
Are we predistined? I honestly don’t know. It seems to be quite a cunundrum. I’ve always had a feeling that death visits us when it is supposed to. Whether that is the choice of a god or nature or whatever, I don’t have a clue. Can that time of death be changed? Possibly. But as I am not afraid of death, except how my own might affect others, it really doesn’t matter to me.
The strange thing is, my nic in poli chat is pre_destin_ed. Why? It sounded interesting. ;)
What if you were a self-professed Christian but you still couldn’t overcome the your homosexual desires, do you still go to hell?
Will,
I have no idea. Is the person repenting and asking for forgiveness and not acting on those desires?
Homosexuality in America today (I don’t know about in Paul’s time) is obviously genetic.
I don’t remember “choosing” to be straight. Most homosexuals would find it much easier in our society to be straight.
Why would anybody “choose” the ridicule and ostracization to be gay?
Obviously, it’s not a choice, and discriminating against homosexuality is like discriminating against people with blond hair.
JR:I was in the Immanuel service live last Sunday. Pastor Terry did not say anything any different than what has been reported in the Eagle, so you didn’t miss anything.
CapnAmerica:Are you saying that people have evolved genetically and in our culture today Homosexuality is genetic, but in the Old Testament, the time of Christ and Paul’s time it was called sin?You’ve bought in to the LIE.Below is the proof it is a choice/free will. But you’d rather believe a lie than take God at HIS word. So you are saying God is lying or HE just wants to make our lives miserable because HE made us the way we are and we are not responsible for any of our actions and nothing is ever our choice or our decision.”Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, [in the lusts of their hearts (Sounds like free-will to me)(they made a choice),] to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for THE lie and worshiped and served the creature (Satan)(Paganism)(Homosexuality)rather than the CREATOR, who is BLESSED forever, AMEN.
If God hated homosexual behavior, then He wouldn’t have created homosexuals. Being gay is no different than being born left handed or with red hair. All you homophobes, get over it.
My point being Nathan is that since homosexual acts are sins as specified in the Bible, then it would be pretty hypocritical for us to slam people for committing such a sin. For example, I don’t know if any of you have noticed, but I do have a problem with profanity. (I can’t help it really, no matter how hard I try I end up slipping ever so often) But I digress, you know Nathan that for the unbelievers all it takes is ONE sin, a single infraction of God’s Law to make them eligible for eternal damnation. (As is the case for the world) So, if we who are now under grace and not under the law because of the redeeming grace of Christ which is freely given us and accredited to us as righteousness for our simple act of faith in Him, why is it that we as Christians seem to hang up on homosexual sin while ignoring the blatant offenses of our own? Now you know that God is just and impartial as the Bible explicitly states. But if God is just and impartial, then He must not hate one sin over another. All sin is evil in the eyes of God, just as all men will be judged according to our deeds in the last days. So Nathan, let me ask you again: If I am a Christian and I have a foul mouth does that mean that I go to hell? If you say yes than you are in danger of saying that the redeeming power of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross is insufficient for me. However if you say no, than it is aright to say that the practicing homosexual who is also a Christian does not go to hell.
Just food for thought I guess.
My apologies for my theological assertions, I have been thinking about this for quite a while and it has puzzled me a bit, but it does make sense. I hope I don’t come across as insensitive to anyone’s religious belief system here.
TM,
I’m trying to figure out how you lump Satan, Paganism, and Homosexuality into the same thing. None of those are related in any way, except maybe in your mind.
Have you ever met Satan? How about a Satanist? Do you know anything about Satanism?
In the same vein, have you ever met a Pagan? Do you know anything about Pagan religions? By the way, Pagans, as a whole, do not worship Satan. They don’t even believe there is such a thing as Satan or the Devil.
I’m sure there are Homosexual Pagans, just as there are homosexual Christians, Jews, Muslims, Budhists, even Atheists and Agnostics.
Perhaps you should do a little research on other religions and religious beliefs before you may such broad statements. After all, you expect non-Christians to know about Christians. It seems fair to ask the same of you.
Will,
Keep working through it. You’re doing a very good job.
Will:”why is it that we as Christians seem to hang up on homosexual sin while ignoring the blatant offenses of our own?”This blog is regarding the homosexual lifestyle and Terry Fox’s battle for the Marriage amendment. That is why it is being debated and discussed.We aren’t “hung up” on it.If you want to blog on other sins, start another thread somewhere esle.According to the Bible, Homosexuality is considered an abomination in the sight of God. I believe the word “abomination” is stronger language than the word “sin”.
RD:I have worked with self-pronounced pagans, Wiccans and Satanists. You name it, I have met them, befriended them and learned from them.”I’m trying to figure out how you lump Satan, Paganism, and Homosexuality into the same thing. None of those are related in any way, except maybe in your mind.”If you read the 18th Chapter of Leviticus, God says plainly that Homosexuality came from the practice of Pagan Worship.And… If you would read where the Apostle Paul addresses it in Romans 1:24-32″Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts (Sounds like free-will, their choice, to me), to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for THE lie and worshiped and served the creature (Satan)(Paganism)(Homosexuality)rather than the CREATOR, who is BLESSED forever, AMEN. For this reason, God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men, committing what is shameful and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.”VS 28-32 of Romans not added here, but you can read it. God’s Word speaks for itself.In this passage of scripture, Paul refers the worshipping and serving of the creature instead of the CREATOR.What part of that scripture did you not understand?
Nathan, X:
Long time ago, when my family lived in Jakarta, I belonged to Catholic Church. In that country the predominant religion was Islam, and the predominant culture is Javanese. Thus the name “Gusti Allah” to the congregation is simply yet another name for “Lord God.” Besides, it is the accepted belief to the flock that God knows His Name in every language. And this is not trying to be CUTE, as you THOUGHTLESSLY accusing. And this is coming from someone who claim to study religions, including branches of Christianity. I’m dissapointed in your shallowness and superficiality.
During my studies, I had a discussion about the closeness of the names “Allah” and “Elohim” to the point that many are conjecturing if they both have the same root linguistically.
After all, how many different ways do we address God? Creator, Providence, Almighty, Lord, Father, Guiding Light, Succourer, etc.
And Nathan, my doubting Thomas (”Show me this, show me that…”), when you do spend some time in quasi-theocratic country, perhaps you will appreciate more the concept of “freedom from religion” as well as “freedom of religion” that was one of the corner stones of the United States of America.
TM…”According to the Bible, Homosexuality is considered an abomination in the sight of God. I believe the word “abomination” is stronger language than the word ’sin’.”Whoa girl.. you are treading on very thin ice here… there is NOWHERE in the Bible that you will find any sin being any more detrimental to your spiritual position with God than another sin. Sin is sin and the wages of sin is DEATH. Homosexuality will not make you any more dead than adultery.. or PRIDE!!Re-read the Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector in Luke 18:9-14.. Seeing yourself as “less of a sinner” than another is specifically brought up by Jesus himself. I would worry about falling into that category….
TM,
To save time and space, I cede to brother (sister?) RooHaa on this and also add that if you think it’s right to regulate Christian ethical practice based on Leviticus 18: 22, you need to explain why other regulations in the Holiness Code should not be regulated ethical practice today. I think that’s already been pointed out. If this is your case, it is not only weak, it is no more than picking and choosing to suit your purpose.
Christian ethics are for Christians. Spreading the word of God is fine, but the line must be drawn when it becomes expecting everyone to accept the Christian view and when others are harmed by it.
The Bible (and God’s words) can be interpreted in many ways. That you and some others insist that it be so in YOUR way and that we all must accept it without question is wrong.
kansassam:I do not regard myself “less” of a sinner.This thread is about homosexuality, homosexual marriage, and the marriage amendment.I am NOT comparing sins. I simply stated what God says homosexuality is to HIM. Abomination simply means that God holds this sin in abhorrence and disgust, just as HE does many other sins. See Leviticus 18:29. God said it, I only quoted HIM. Take the use of the word “abomination” to HIM.The definition of “Sin”: To deliberately violate a religious or moral law or the known will of God.
Sorry, I should’ve said I cede to Roo-Haa and kansassam on it. (Didn’t mean to leave you out of it, Sam.)
Homosexuality is a life of sin.
You can’t even begin to compare it to committing a sin once.
There is a big difference in living a life of sin, which you deny is sin, refuse to repent, refuse to ask for forgiveness, because you think it is ok to committ homosexual acts.
Comparing that to someone who messes up and sins like we all do, but routinely accepts that it is sin, repents, and askes for forgivness.
Repenting means accepting responsibility and changing. It doesn’t mean continuing on in your sinful ways with no regard.
God gives his grace freely to those who seek it.
If you are living a life of sin as a homosexual how can you say you are seeking Gods grace when you openly say that what you are doing is not sin?
How can you say you repent of your sin if you continue doing it with no regard?
That is the difference.
I think we are having several different discussion here and a few of you think they are all one.
1. We are talking about the legality of homosexual marriage and why/why not it should be legal.
2. We are talking about the Biblical arguements as to why homosexuality is a sin.
Please don’t confuse the two.
I can debate and argue about the reasons against homosexual marriage without ever talking about homosexuality being a sin.
That is not the only reason for my opposition to homosexual marriage.
Good day, Nathan.Not here to debate the topic,just a quick howdy.RD, you know this is a circular topic right?Still fun to dicuss.
LOL Yes, Tracy, I know. That’s what make them so much fun.
Nathan,
I’m sorry, but I don’t see you differentiating between #1 and #2. So to set me straight, please, again, give me your reason why homosexual unions should not be legal.
RD,
Homosexuality is a choice. There is not any definitive evidence to show someone is born that way.
To be fair, there really isn’t much proof to prove it is a choice either.
There are many people who said they were gay and have since changed and come to know Christ and repent of thier sinful ways.
If you are going to argue that Homosexuality is not a choice then what about Poligamy?
Is that a choice or are people born wanting to love more than one person?
I can see no difference between saying one is not choice from the other.
If it is all a choice, which I believe it is, then you have no right to special privledges to be married anymore than someone who loves more than one person or an animal or a tree or anything else they say they love.
Marriage is a privledge given by the state. It is not a right. Just like driving a car.
It is a widely accepted practice now so everyones attitude is that it is MY RIGHT.
In logic you have different types of “rights”
Unfortunatly, marriage is just a law.
At this time I can’t see any credible reason why homosexuals should get special recognition for their choice as a right.
Yes, marriage is a priviliage by the state and the state cannot pass laws that favor one religion over another. The anti-marriage legislation that prohibits gays from getting married favors one religious viewpoint and is therefore unconstitutional. Being that you are a conservative you don’t care much for the Constitution so I won’t go much further.
However it’s interesting that you decry homosexuality as a sinful lifestyle. Thankfully you live completely free of what your religion considers sinful. No doubt you don’t eat shellfish, wear clothing of mixed fabrics and forgo the eating of pork. These lifestyle choices are also sinful that’s why we often see you protesting outside of Red Lobster.
Or are you a hypocrite Nathan and your religious laws just apply to others. Those others being those who you already hate and you just justify your hatred with a big leather bound book so you can do it without any feelings of remorse?
Doug,
Leviticus was only brought up to Old covenant law.show God’s detest for homosexuality.
Obviously you don’t understand what the New and Old covenants are nor the significance of Jesus return and it’s implications on mans relationship with God.
That being said, the basics are that we are no longer bound or under what is commonly reffered to as the Old Covenant.
It has nothing to do with us picking and choosing verses.
If you are interested in learning about Jesus and having a personal relationship with him and growing and faith and understanding the Bible I can help.
Nathan,
Are you saying that your feelings about homosexuality are based on your religious beliefs or your personal taste not based on your religious beliefs? I’m guessing the former, because you bring up choice and genetics. And if that’s the case, then you’re mixing #1 and #2.
We’re not discussing polygamy, so why bring it up? But since you did, is it not true that some Mormons (based in Christianity) do practice it? I’m looking for enlightenment, not necessarily feeling the need to argue or debate.
To be honest, I have never felt the need to “choose to be gay.” Polygamy wouldn’t be my cup of tea, either. I wouldn’t want to be one of several wives to one man, neither would I want to have more than one hubby at a time. Do I care if others do it? Frankly, I don’t.
I know and understand that you don’t like it when I bring up “pick and choose.” I do think you’re a bright young man, and I commend you for that and for sticking to your beliefs. I just don’t agree with many of them.
I don’t think you mean to harm gays, but it’s my belief that restricting their lives by creating laws that discriminate against them, they are harmed. We’ll continue to disagree on this, I know, but that’s okay.
RD,
Of course, ultimately I don’t support homosexuality because it is a sin.
Logically, I don’t agree with it being state endorsed through marriage either.
Mormons are a whole different topic. First, their “christianity” is in question by many including myself.
Mormons believe that a man named Joseph Smith had a vision from God and became a prophet. Joseph Smith gave what he claimed to be an account of Jesus in North America.
Thus the Book of Mormon.
I honestly don’t know the exact specifics of poligamy, but in the begining of the Mormon days it was accepted and tolerated. I am not too sure as to why, but eventually over time it became one of those black eye things on the faith and the more modern and main stream LDS church broke away from it and don’t condone it.
Today you still have a few groups that believe in it and practice it.
The point is that do you think they should have state sanctioned poligamist marriage between several people?
Where does it end with giving special privledges out to people?
What about someone wanting to marry their dog? Who are you to say they shouldn’t have a right to get married to their dog?
It can go on and on…
Nathan,
Referring to Doug’s post and your reply, does Jesus mention homosexuality in the New Testament? Chapter and verse will do. I can look it up.
Doug,
I truly don’t think Nathan “hates” gays. His convictions are strong, but not hateful.
LOL
Nathan, when a dog can state his/her name and repeat the marriage vows, then it’ll be okay.
Nathan you have made it quite clear that you don’t have an understanding of the Bible. You are probably one of those Christians who thinks there are only 10 Commandments in the Old Testament.
The Christian belief that there was an “old convenant” and a new one is just indicating that Christians are lacking in their faith. Why did your god create so many commandments for you to follow then reject? Was he just wasting time presenting orders on moral behavior that weren’t really moral? The Jews followed them out of an act of faith, you reject them for the same reason which is rather odd. Perhaps you are just another one of those Christians who pick and choose which commandments you’ll follow. Your Jesus said to give away all your possessions and live as the poor do yet here you are with a computer and internet access. Why the double standard Nathan?
As for your Jesus he never condemned homosexuality. Perhaps you were thinking of something out of Paul’s letters, the same Paul who never met Jesus and never thought he was an actual person.
Nathan, I really haven’t given a lot of thought to polygamy. I know it’s not for me, but legally? I’d really have to give some heavy thought to it before I come to any decision on it. At best for now, all I can say is the law is already there. Given the fact that many states have or are currently voting on marriage laws, it seems to point that the older laws regarding marriage didn’t strongly oppose gay marriage. Perhaps because it wasn’t an issue in the past, and that only because gays lived shadow lives because of discrimination and hate.
I remember my dad, who I loved dearly, pointing out two men to me when I was young and telling me they were “queers.” He didn’t say anything right or wrong about them, just showed me. Oh, and he pointed out a couple of Mafia guys to me in a restaurant once, too. My mother was a member of the American Legion (she had been Navy), and also in the group was a Lesbian and her partner. The funny thing is, I don’t ever remember my dad saying anything about them. He treated them as he did everyone, with kindness and friendship. It wasn’t until I was MUCH older and completely grown that I realized the two women were gay.
I guess I get my “liberalness” from my very Catholic father.
Question for Nathan:
Does the New Testament overrule the Old Testament? If so, is it on the whole or just parts? (Just trying to get your take on it.)
I know that when I asked a Christian friend about why the Bible contradicted itself in places, she used the “eye for an eye” and “turn the other cheek” as an example, saying that the coming of Christ changed many perceptions put forth in the NT.
The problem was, after accepting her answer (yes, I can see her answer as true), I remember that my problem with contradictions was not with OT/NT, but within one particular book.
Old Covenant is out, so what’s the point on keeping the 10 (15, according to Mel Brooks) Commandments? Wouldn’t it be the same with Leviticus? I have yet to hear non-conflicting answer from anyone on this.
RD, about my gender, that is one major sticking point I have with English language, “he” or “she.” Currently, I’m studying some Uralic languages, in case Nokia people ever want me to work for them, and was struck by the general lack of gender.
Roo -so that would make you an ‘it’?
Given the choices, we’d rather use “pluralis modestiae.” LOL
But only if the voices in our heads all sing harmoniously…
Sort of sounds like being haunted. Voices??
And shapely images… :)
Or a Siamese twin of both sexes? Like Cat-Dog, only sexual?
Multiple personalities a la Sybil?
Roo, it makes no difference to me. I just didn’t want to offend by using the more-used “he.”
RD, no offence taken. It’s a way for me to illustrate how language can influence how we perceive the world, or approach a subject, esp. on matters as volatile as this one. Go beyond the words, I was once told by a mime instructor, and language barriers may cease to exist.
“I have worked with self-pronounced pagans, Wiccans and Satanists. You name it, I have met them, befriended them and learned from them.”
Very kind of you, TM. It’s good to know you have some kind of openness to other faiths.
Out of curiosity, what do you mean by “worked with?”
And why self-pronounced? I’m feeling derogatory vibes here and would like to be corrected if wrong. Self-pronounced as in “I am Pagan” or “I am Christian”?
Without this becoming an entire page full of theology, here is the simple explanation:
Before Christ came our relationship with God was one of sinful being who was not worthy and had to follow the law and make attonements for our sins…slaughter animals…etc…
When Jesus came he was the final sacrifice for our sins, our relationship with God changed to forgiven seeking Gods grace and no longer bound by the law.
Jesus came to fulfill the law.
Hebrews goes into a bit. There are many other spots in Pauls letters which talk about it too.
It doesn’t invalidate the Old Testament.
We are not picking and choosing.
Okay, Nathan. Thanks for the reply.
Thus, after Jesus, it’s a lawless world!
Roo haa,
Like I said, it was the simple answer. If you were truely seeking to know it is not hard to find out about.
There must be over a million Bibles and tons of resources available to you to figure it out.
Instead you sit here and mock me like you are so smart when in reality it is really sad to see someone have to resort to such childish things.
I hope you really find the answers to your questions, whatever they are, one day instead of using this opportunity to mock me.
I have tried to be nice and patient and answer every question you ask even though I knew your intentions were not good.
Oh Well…
Well even if the old Testament was invalidated or reordered because of Christ it IS illustrative.
What sort of supreme entitly calls for the sacrifice of animals??? Sounds ghoulish to me.
Hey TM?
You gonna stay at “the church with it’s center at the center of the city” or are you gonna follow brother Terry to the amusement park?
And the mocking continues…
Why is homosexuality wrong? I don’t want to hear “because the Bible says so”. WHY is it wrong? What is wrong with two adults being in a committed, loving, and sexual relationship? How does it harm anyone? And why does anyone care about who someone else is in relationship with?All you “Bible thumpers” use your religion to justify your thinly veiled intolerance, but what is it that you are so afraid of?You say you only speak out about homosexuality because that’s what the thread is about, but I can’t help but notice that you give this issue much more attention that the other issues on this blog. Why is that?
Let’s put this in context. Nathan, feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.
The OT was written by Hebrews as a chronical of their history. It is still the basis of the Jewish religion, per se.
The NT was written after the birth (and death) of Christ by his followers and is not accepted by the Jewish religion.
I realize that it really isn’t fair to compare the two, considering, yet it is the nature of humans to do so.
I have my own, personal thoughts about the writing of the Bible, but posting about them here just isn’t right, so I won’t.
But let’s do keep in mind about the writers of the Bible, as we discuss it.
RD:I have been employed with people I befriended who called themselves “Pagans” etc.
JR:Not that it’s any of your business, but I will be staying at Immanuel.Pastor Terry made a very difficult choice, one that he has struggled with for quite some time.I belong to a church family at Immanuel.Yes, we love Pastor Terry and wish him much success and I will remain friends with him and Barbara, but God wants me to stay at Immanuel.
TM,
Fair enough, and thanks for answering.
Did you feel these people were led by Satan? Or do you just feel that they have veered away from the Christian God?
Hey, Nathan!
One more thought on polygamy. One of the main reasons it was deemed illegal is because of the tax laws. Not so much religion, but with more than one wife, can you imagine how many deductions these guys could be claiming?
(Thanks to my daughter for reminding me. The obvious is sometimes hard to see.)
Of course, I mock you, Nathan. You mocked me first. An eye for an eye, isn’t that so, old chap? Or, maybe I should have followed the teaching of turning the other cheek, and ignore your mocking me in the first place? In that case, I’m sorry that you can’t recognize the humour that can be LOGICALLY derived from your posting.
Mary,Forget the phrase “Bible thumpers.” Here where I’m posted, we have a saying “Bible bashers,” since they’d love to bash non-believers’ heads with The Book, a.k.a, Al-Kitab. But then again, I’d experience similar attitude in almost all religious groups…
Roo, you need to understand that with nathan, things only go one direction. He can bash you, but if you bash him, he will bring god’s wrath down on your head.
He can hate everyone who isnt him, but if you disagree, you will burn in hell.
And did I mention if you dont support his killing machine, you are supporting terrorists?
And might I add: Bill Clinton! Gay marriage! Creationism!
There, get all the blame out at once so nathan doesnt have to spin up the hate machine again.
Mary,
“Why is homosexuality wrong? I don’t want to hear “because the Bible says so”. WHY is it wrong?”
That is why I think it is wrong.
“What is wrong with two adults being in a committed, loving, and sexual relationship? How does it harm anyone? And why does anyone care about who someone else is in relationship with?”
Mary,
KFG can do all those things and does. I don’t support the government endorsing her lifestyle though.
No one is stopping KFG from doing any of it.
Kassam and M–
Okay, let’s skip the idea that Satan is responsible for evil. Even if that were true, it doesn’t explain why God, who created everything in the universe seen and unseen, would create a spirit knowing full well that it would rebel and bring evil into the world.
Let’s skip that whole thing.
Let’s go right to disease and slow lingering death. A baby is born. It’s brain is outside it’s head. Another baby is born. It lives for 18 months then she gets the hemeophelous virus and becomes deaf and blind. Another child wanders into the bathroom and peers over the side of his mom’s filling tub. He falls in and his head stays under water for 4 minutes. He lives, but he will be in a coma for 16 more years.
Did Satan cause this evil too?
Cap’n A,The one thing an omniscient omnipotent being cannot do is escape responsibility!
heheheheh Someone just sent me an email with a copy of documents showing that taliban terry is a little bit behind in paying some of his property taxes. Someone else said that here yesterday, but I blew it off. Sorry, I see the proof now.
I wonder what other tax questions might be asked of the good ayatollah? I wonder if any other tax collection agencies might be inquiring into the church’s financial records? I wonder if the IRS and the campaign finance regulators might ask some questions of both terry and the church?
I wonder if that is why TM kicked JB under the table and told him to shut up. Threatened that he should be “disciplined”. Not be sharing family secrets out of school.
Hmmm. What is TM afraid JB will say? Will taliban terry join jim bakker behind bars and create a martha stewart gang collection of fashion for this year’s prisoners?
Will the ayatollah avoid prison and go out feet first like Kenny boy Lay?
Will any government agency actually question god’s own jihadist and follow through if wrongdoing is found.
Tune in here for more. Same moonbat time, same moonbat channel. Another episode of “As terry’s world turns”.
heheheh
Who was it that said “the bigger they are, the harder they fall”?
KFG,
The IRS won’t do a thing because Terry will deliver plenty of votes for the party in power!
V.L.R.B!!
No sh..?
SOMEBODY sees you as a good person to have such information!
We may be better read then we know.
I said I didn’t want to hear what the Bible says about homosexuality. Do you also believe that children are born disabled because their parents are sinners? Or that rich people can’t go to heaven? What about the comandment that says “thou shall not kill”, yet you carry a gun? I’ll never understand the inconsistancy. Why do Christians worry so much about gays when there are over 100,000 registered sex offenders running around this country plus murderers, corrupt politicans, and corporate CEOs who rob their shareholders and screw their employees? There is war all over the world, slavery, child abuse, hunger, disease, etc. Why do so many “Christians” focus so much energy on someone’s sexual preference that harms no one? Seems to me it could be put to more productive use by attempting to make the world a better place.
Look at the number of hits on this thread, then look at the number of hits on the Darfur thread. Why aren’t all the “Christians” as attentive to the situation in Darfur as they are the homosexual issue?I’m waiting……….:)
Capn..
Too many people give Satan too much credit.. although he is evil incarnate… he is only an angel, not omnipotent nor omnipresent.
These are terrible things you mention, but not evil.. they are caused by the degeneration of the world since it fell under the curse of sin.
What we must really keep in perspective is that although God allows these things to happen, our time here is short and His promise is an ETERNAL existence in His presence for those who accept Christ’s gift of salvation. There is no comparison.
Mary,As always you put it rather sucinctly and eloquently.Thank you.
Damoon for GOVERNOR!!!!!!!!!!!
hehehe. Except we dont agree on the prochoice issues.
But I still think she would make a GREAT elected official.
Mary? I’ll manage your campaign if you run in two years.
And I’ll do it anonymously and free so you wont be saddled with the backlash my assistance is sure to bring.
What say you bloggers? Mary for OFFICE?
Seconded that motion, says I.
I didn’t think this thread would still be going…
I feel inclined to answer some of Mary’s questions and quite frankly, unfair accusations.
If Mary wants it then I will support her and help stuff envelopes or whatever she needs, but I don’t do windows – she has lots in her house :)
Mary,
There is not disagreement in the Darfur thread. I think we all pretty much agree that what is happening is bad.
Did you want to argue about that?
Of course, I have been engaged in many discussions with you on Christians and Christianity and this is the type of comparison I have come to expect from you though.
Mary,
“I said I didn’t want to hear what the Bible says about homosexuality.”
You are in a thread about a Christian Pastor who talks about Homosexuality and is the subject of media attention for what he says is in the Bible.
You are going to hear about what the Bible says…
“Do you also believe that children are born disabled because their parents are sinners?”
You ask this question under the premise that homosexuality is not a choice. We are not in agreement on that so why would you introduce a question to us based on it?
No, people are not born disabled because there parents are sinners.
“Or that rich people can’t go to heaven?”
Rich people can go to heaven. Jesus said it is more difficult for them to do so because in that culture being rich was greatly associated with someone with a passion and lust for money over God.
“What about the comandment that says “thou shall not kill”, yet you carry a gun? I’ll never understand the inconsistancy.”
You and I have had this discussion. The word used in that commandment is better interpreted to murder. In the way that word is used throughout the bible it’s context is better described by the use of the word murder.
Of course, when you don’t want to talk about the Bible, it would be a hard concept to grasp for someone like you who simply picks and chooses some verse to try and throw in a Christians face as if you are so smart and can stump them.
If you would like to discuss that commandment in depth I would love to do so, I have done it in the past and usually everyone just starts acting indignant and leaves or refuses to actually engage in a reasoned discussion.
“Why do Christians worry so much about gays when there are over 100,000 registered sex offenders running around this country plus murderers, corrupt politicans, and corporate CEOs who rob their shareholders and screw their employees?”
Again you base a question on a premise in contention. I don’t think Christians worry so much about homosexuality. It is simply a point of much contention between Christians and others and the media plays on this all the time. It is only your perception that this is what Christians spend all their time caring about.
Every church I have been to hardly spends that much time on the subject at all. I hate to disappoint you.
“There is war all over the world, slavery, child abuse, hunger, disease, etc. Why do so many “Christians” focus so much energy on someone’s sexual preference that harms no one?”
Again, it is what the media is focused on. Why do you think this is what Christians focus so much on? What Christian church have you been to consistently and can share with us on how much they focus on homosexuality?
On what do you premise this?
“Seems to me it could be put to more productive use by attempting to make the world a better place.”
And that is what the thousands upon thousands of Christian missionaries are doing every day.
heheheh
and all that good work can be undone by one banty rooster ayatollah and his apologetic little dog and flying monkeys.
nice work
hmmm, the real debate is taking place on the new “yee haw” taliban terry thread, and the righties got their asses kicked there so bad they are moving the debate to an OLDER ayatollah tread.
Whatever will they do if we keep posting on the new thread? They dont want to draw attention to the posts there that document how terry refuses to pay his taxes. They dont want you to see the preponderance of public opinion is negative toward immanuel, terry, and now the www. They dont want you to see what is there….
whatever will they do if we keep posting there? They have to post to reply, drawing MORE attention to the facts, or they must abandon the field, in which case, we STILL keep posting there.
hehehe. Wonder what the logic boys will come up with to counter THAT?
more illogical stuff I bet.
KFG,
The debate here was not about the character of Terry for the most part.
It has been about homosexuality being a sin and the marriage amendment.
Niether of which have anything to do with Terry as a person.
Gosh nathan, for once you are correct.
Taliban terry’s character is not up for debate.
WE ALL SEE IT CLEARLY!!!!!!!!
If that is the character developed by reading your bible, I can only say:
Jesus, save me from your followers!
According to the Bible, Homosexuality is considered an abomination in the sight of God. I believe the word “abomination” is stronger language than the word “sin”.
TM,First, I appreciate your honest answer. By what you have written you seem predisposed to thinking that homosexual acts are more sinful than other sins. May I ask, is homosexual acts MORE EVIL than murder? Is it MORE EVIL than stealing, committing adultery, or any other infracture of the Commandments? All sin is evil in the eyes of God TM. I am predisposed to taking the Lord’s name in vain, I am conscious of doing so, I know it is wrong yet I do it. I understand that you have knowledge of the Gospel and you know that it only takes a single infraction of God’s law to make us culpable of eternal damnation. I would appreciate it if you can answer the question I posed to Nathan, don’t evade it, just answer it if you please.
Can a practicing homosexual who is a Christian get to heaven?
Nathan,Do you believe that the Kansas anti-gay marriage ammendment were signed by people (Christian Americans) who did not use their religious beliefs as a basis for imposing their lifestyle on another group of people? (Gay Americans)Fiddlesticks I say to thee! Fiddlesticks!
If the Hasidic Jewish-American community made an anti-pork consuming constitutional amendment banning even NON-JEWS from eating pork I would be veritably pissed off at the denial of my swine-consuming habits! In the same way Christian Americans have voted to enshrine their ideal of life into law and (are you ready for this?) IMPOSED IT UPON HOMOSEXUAL AMERICANS MANY OF WHOM MAY NOT BE CHRISTIAN!!!
I congratulate you Nathan, and all who have voted to encroach upon the lifestyle of your fellow Americans.
Do you fight for a free country? Or for the freedom of those who only share your ideals?Answer that Nathan.
I apologize for replying so late.The newer thread about this similar topic got the most of my attention.
Yeah will. They tried everything to kill these threads, including posting across the spectrum and on threads that disappeared into the archives.
We are on to you. There is no hiding from the truth. From the day taliban terry made a public figure of himself and his church, someone shoulda figured out this old saying would come true:
What is done in the dark will eventually come to light.
Welcome to the light.
Terry Fox is nothing like phelps-I go to his church and he does not support Phelps.