Michael Kinsley points out that if opponents of stem cell research really believe that an “embryo and, say, Nelson Mandela are equal in the eyes of God,” then those opponents should be just as — if not more — outraged about fertility clinics, which purposely produce more embryos than they intend to use and discard the leftovers. He writes: “Proponents of stem cell research like to emphasize that it doesn’t cost the life of a single embryo. The embryos killed to extract their stem cells were doomed already. But this argument gives too much ground, and misses the point. If embryos are human beings, it’s not okay to kill them for their stem cells just because you were going to kill them, or knowingly let them die, anyway. The better point — the killer point, if you’ll pardon the expression — is that if embryos are human beings, the routine practices of fertility clinics are far worse — both in numbers and in criminal intent — than stem cell research. And yet, no one objects, or objects very loudly. President Bush actually praised the work of fertility clinics in his first speech announcing restrictions on stem cells.”
Posted by Melissa Cooley
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75 Comments
BWAHAHAHA, finally! I’ve only been pointing this out for years!If there is no difference between a newborn baby and an unborn fetus, and it is just a matter of “location” (as if the woman’s womb is no different than a NICU bed)…then why aren’t we pissed off about IVF?
I find both loathesome: abortion and IVF. BUT these are personal beliefs. I wouldn’t push to make either completely illegal.
But it just blows my mind that one is vehemently lobbyed against and the other is treated like a “cluck cluck, too bad” kind of issue.
Preimplantation genetic diagnosis: At the eight cell stage and above, a doctor can take a single cell, map the chromosomes and determine if there are genetic abnormalities possibly present. If so, that embryo gets tossed. How is this more ethical than abortion??!!Even without PGD, there are so many embryos that can’t survive the culture because we just haven’t managed to replicate Mother Nature perfectly. These embryos die BECAUSE of IVF. They are created only to be destroyed, all in the quest for a single baby who looks like you. Why not adopt one of the many, many children in the foster care system?
I think it’s the sex. IVF doesn’t involve women having sex for pleasure instead of procreation; that’s why it’s more acceptable than abortion (dirty slut should have kept her legs closed, serves her right).
I have yet to receive a satisfactory answer to this glaring hypocrisy. Where are all the IVF clinic protesters?
Perhaps it is because embryos and fetuses aren’t equal in the eyes of us anti-abortionists? Also the methods of “discarding” an embryo is different from a very human-looking fetus that moves around and acts like a newborn baby would. I remember an old New Hampshire case in which an assailant beat a woman to death who was about 8 months pregnant and theD.A. wanted to charge him with DOUBLE homicide. Perhaps personhood is more attributable toa developed fetus than an embryo.
Well maybe that Crusader, but maybe its because the “shock and awe” value isnt there… You’ve seen thoes pictures that they carry out there on the protest lines, the ones of the hacked up fetiuses, covered in blood. Or the ones on that big box truck that is parked out infront of a certin former republican leaders house?
This guy actually drives this thing around town with thoes pictures on it. I dont care what side of the isle you are on, thats plaine offensive and my kids dont need to see that…
If your protesting one of these labs, what are you going to show in thoes pics, a doctor working in a lab? a test tube full of clear liquid?
no, there isnt any blood, guts and gore… thats my two cents, feel free to give change…
Father sarduchi has a harder time getting his sheeple fired up over IVF. No gory bloody pictures to hold up.
Women shed fertilized eggs all the time, there is a big differnce between that and killing a fetus who produces brain waves, has a beating heart, sucks it’s thumb, and feels pain.Yes, if the egg implants in the uterine lining, it has a good chnace of developing into a human being. A fetus is a human being.
I’ll bet if you guys went to an abortion clinic and watched the procedure, you’d change your mind about the unhumanity of the fetus. Out of sight, out of mind.
Da,Been there, done that, over and over, and it didn’t change a thing. Sorry.
I’ll bet if you guys went to Iraq and watched the occupation, you’d change your mind about the inhumanity of the invasion. Out of sight, out of mind.
Easy to forget about the ones already here eh?
I oppose abortion. I also oppose fertility clinics’ practices which create embryos destined for destruction. So does the Catholic Church, which is a pretty sizable institution.
I also realize that, politically speaking, we are nowhere close to being able to ban these practices. I would be happy to see a public discussion of fertility clinic regulation, but that just isn’t happening.
Maybe I have a too simple view on this but the difference I see is that the purpose of one procedure is to only destroy a life while the other procedure is to help produce one life; yes there is some waste that happens also in nature. While I believe that abortion only for the contingences of the person is wrong, you have to make your our decision based on your convictions. May God have mercy on you if you are wrong.
“contingences” should be convenience. Darn auto spell corrector did it to me.
I firmly believe that if we wern t meant to medal with life than God would have given us the intelligence to do so… I believe that the only way to beat some of these disease is by Stem Cell research. I also believe the only way to solve reproductive problems is by fertility clinics.
(lets leave the abortion debate to another thread).
Tony,You got my vote.
I firmly believe that if we wern t meant to medal with life than God would have given us the intelligence to do so…Tony, I think you ment to say: I firmly believe that if we wern’t meant to medal with life than (THEN)God would (NOT) have given us the intelligence to do so…This I agree with.
“…very human-looking fetus that moves around and acts like a newborn baby would”
But in the first trimester, it doesn’t really look like a human or act like a newborn baby. That doesn’t make a difference–not to me and not to the pro-life crowd, from what I understand. Life is life is life, whether it looks like a baby or it looks like a clump of blood.
“you have to make your our decision based on your convictions. May God have mercy on you if you are wrong.”
Well said. From the sound of that sentence, you sound like a pro-choicer :)
Honestly, PGD scares me. If we can test embryos for genetic diseases, could that lead to sex selection, or selecting for eye color/hair color…you know, designer babies? Shudder.(It’s a bit of a slippery slope, I know, but it’s bugged me ever since I did a report on a form of IVF).
Some couples treat fertility treatments as a consumer would buying a refrigerator.”I’m spending all this money, I damn well get a baby with 10 fingers and 10 toes who is absolutely perfect…”
Not most, of course. Most would gladly take any child they can create, disabled or no. But there are some….
Well said. From the sound of that sentence, you sound like a pro-choicer :)
Don’t take me too wrong, partial birth abortions really bother me and I might vote to restrict them in most cases with a few exceptions. Let’s just say that I am not radical anti choice. The decision to abort should not be taken lightly. I think that more consideration should be given than I think most women give before having one. I also see it as indication of a different problem.
RA,
Thanks for the help, that dam spell checker changed it, i have to remember to put in my ‘ into my n’t other wise it changes it…
Well,
On a similar thread last week, Darwins posted a link at research with embryonic cells that removes the ethical problems some would have with stem cell research. Probably he should post that link again here.
That said, I don’t see how anyone can have a problem with using embryos that will only be either thrown away or consigned to eternal frozen storage for the much more worthy purpose of curing diseases or healing people.
Many in the “pro life” camp are also vocal advocates for letting the free market work.
There may be better alternatives to stem cell research. The ethical problems that some in the “pro life” camp have with it should motivate them to find those alternatives. Restricting stem cell research removes that motivation. Therefore widespread stem cell research now COULD eventually lead to it no longer being needed.
Oh give me a break, Jed! Have you really watched an abortion and if so, how many and what trimesters? So escorting women to and from the clinic gives you a ringside seat in the back where the procedure is done? Doesn’t sound very ethical or professional to me.Explain yourself. please.
Face it: If men got pregnant, abortion would become a right, not a choice.
Sky, Abortion is a right, or haven’t you heard?If men could get pregnant, maybe they’d keep their pants on.
If men became pregnant, there wouldn’t be so damn many wars, except during mans’ time of the month of course.
JM-Then what about the dreaded UMS?( Ugly Mood Swing)
Skydiver,
Just because you and your ilk keep repeating that tired old line don’t make it so. If women wish to exercise “control over their bodies”, they should do so before spreading their legs for unprotected sex.
viva La Raza Blanco!!!
Skydiver,
Let’s define your statement a little more. How about this?
If men could become pregnant, abortions would be given at every McDonald’s drive-thru window.
;)
Ian,
In that respect, maybe men shouldn’t be whipping it out at every preconcieved opportunity.
Da,Several of the women I have taken to clinics have been close personal friends, and in one case, my own daughter. They asked me to stay and hold their hands. All were before their twelfth week. All made their own decisions.Where your sympathies are spent only on fetuses, mine go to the women. Maybe if your side had some for the women, I could spare some for the fetus, but that’ll never happen as long as your people are at the clinics screaming “Whore!” at the women who enter!There are some on your side who would deny an abortion for any reason at all, including to save the mother’s life, and who propose shooting women who go to clinics. They would prefer that abortion be driven back underground, where women died, rather than have it done openly, by qualified medical personnel. They know they won’t be preventing abortions, they just want the “whores” to bleed to death.
Abortions are the result of sex.
IVF’s are the result of lack of sex (or lack of effective sex).
It’s not the “unborn babies” that gets the anti-abortion crowd all whipped to a lather, it’s the sex.
If abortions weren’t the result of sex, they wouldn’t care about it, just like they don’t care about the three dozen or so “unborn babies” created to be killed in the IVF eugenics camps.
What bullshit.
Jed, Don’t associate me with the people that stand outside the clinics yelling at the women that come to them. Of course I have empathy for women, but I know that abortion destroys innocent human life and I’ll always have a problem with that.There is a big difference between holding someone’s hand during a procedure and being on the other end actually watching what’s going on. You haven’t seen an abortion just because you’ve been the same room when it happened.Why don’t you watch a partial birth abortion sometime along side the doctor, and then tell me you don’t feel anything for the baby. I personally know a nurse who assisted with one and it changed her mind. She now tries to help women find alternatives to ending their pregnancies.Like I said before, out of sight, out of mind. When you’re not faced with the reality of abortion, it’s easy to deny what it really is.
Just because I think life is sacred, it’s absolutly stupid to think I resent people for having sex, that’s the dumbest thing I’ve read on the subject yet, “ICThus”.
Luckily, partial birth abortions are very, very rare, done only to save the life of the mother or to terminate a pregnancy in which the fetus has a condition incompatible with life. Those rub me the wrong way because you could take the fetus out, disconnect it from the mother and it would still be alive. You’d have to ACTIVELY kill it, rather than just remove it from the woman and have it die as a result. It sounds like a stupid and subtle difference, but it seems to make a lot of difference in my head…
Live births are pretty gross too. Would people not have other surgeries just because they looked gross? Shouldn’t we make sure they are fully informed too? There are women who ask to see their 1st T abortion and are surprised how little there is actually there. The idea that a huge honking big baby is going to come out at 12 weeks is just a fabrication of the pro-life movement. Should we make the women who decide to carry their highly malformed fetus to birth see how gross the last stillirth I had to see was? Is that worse than a so-called partial birth abortion, given that those are the kind of situations for which that proceedure is legal? I am not convinced that just seeing the sono or even seeing what an abortion looks like would actually change the woman who feels she needs its mind. It may change the minds of people for whom there is no cost to having or not having an abortion. And frankly, I just don’t care much what those people think of it.
That wasn’t even what I wanted to say about fertility clinics. The nice married couples who just want a baby to love and are willing to pay whatever it takes for them are usually well-off and have political clout. They are people nobody no matter how high their rhetoric really want to upset. Heck, many of them are the ones sending in the checks to the pro-life movement because if the treatments don’t work they want their pick of the adoptees.
Tara, I have to agree with you…
This is basically how I see life…
If it (any human or animal, old, young, unborn) requires anything external (machinery, way to much medication, or a womb) to survive on its own, than it has a right to die. The unborn may not be able to make that decision on its own but i believe that the greater good falls into play…
I think its asinine that it is illegal for me to kill myself. Its not like they can stop me, but the idea is ludicrous.
Dr assisted suicide, there is another one. Why should i be forced to live if i 1) want to die and 2) cant do it myself?
I could and would honestly say that if any of my family members were laying in a hospital with a disabilitating disease and they were unable to take care of themselves, or even live with out the use of machines, i would have no problem assisting them on to a better place. I will also expect the same from my parents and my children. I refuse to live on this planet as a vegetable and its no ones right to take that right away from me…
ESPECIALLY CONGRESS, THE PRESIDENT, THE COURTS, AND ANYONE WHO ISNT MY FAMILY (maybe priest)!
(Tony steps down from the soap box and runs away…)
Damoon I would call you truly pro life. You are different from others who I call “pro life”.
Ict and Tara are correct in calling out SOME “pro lifers” You cannot deny Damoon that there is no small number of people who only care about a fetus and not a born baby. THEIR agenda….not yours… is denial of choice and using a baby as punishment for “naughty sex”. Call BS on THEM not on ICT.
A baby should never be used as punishment. Third trimester “partial birth” abortions are vanishingly rare except in the case of severe abnormality. Ask yourself Damoon if we live in a society that HELPS a severely disabled baby and family AFTER the birth.
And as to IVF….. that is the province of those who can AFFORD it. Too bad that I say. Plenty of good potential parents are not rich enough for this procedure or are “unacceptable” for adoption of babies in some other way….like because they are gay. Worse yet to make “choice” as to childbirth the province of only the wealthy or “accepted”.
You made good points Tony.Stay on that soap box and don’t run away.
The problem with the “pro life” crowd which is much posted here and which Tony delved further into is PRO QUALITY OF LIFE.
Unless and until the “pro lifers” address THAT they should not be taken serioulsy.
Thank you JR.
Since the invitation is there, lets go ahead and go on, shall we…
I was raised catholic and our particular priest was very good about the entire idea of separation of church and state. I was raised in a house that was pro separation of church and state. I was raised in a catholic church. I was raised around the idea of life is sacred and that we should cherish it. I was involved in many assist the poor and do what we can for the various charities but there was never enough to go around…
Without getting into that exact debate, let me say this… Of all of the religions i would have to say, IN MY OPNION, catholics do more and say less than the others…
That might start a debate in and amongst itself but oh well… My opinion…
I have noticed continually over the years since my volunteer work that the need among the “living and healthy” are growing (because of our greedy business practices) but the supply is dwindling.
There for the supply to handle unwanted children is very very low. A few months ago there was a very large meeting here in Wichita from all of the major non-profit groups from around Kansas.
The topic? Adoption. The simple fact is that there arnt enough families for the current need. Some of the stats that i remember (i did a report in ethics class on this) is that the only way that the current foster system is keeping up is by shipping children as far away as OKC, Denver, KC and into Missouri.
If the system cant handle the people that really truly need the help, what is it going to do with an influx of another 800,000 (approx number of abortions last year) babies annually (if abortion were to be outlawed).
Something my mom said a while back that made me think of the “bigger picture” was this: people think its all and good to outlaw (abortion) because that what they see. What they dont see is what happens when an unwanted child is born and cast aside.
This falls back to the Quality of life, not only for the children but for us as a society. (OK, someone i know just called me Communist)
I will say this to the “PRO LIFERS”, the day that operation rescue (and all other organizations) can take in and support every single unwanted child from any source is the day i will support outlawing abortion federally.
I recently got into a debate with one of the few persons i feel has a right to debate on the subject. A women in her mid to late twenties whom had an abortion back in her teens. She regrets it but has a better life now in which to support her current children. She is also very pro life but she doesn’t claim her position based on religion, but on her own experiences…
I’m tired of people saying, its wrong because the bible says so. The bible is a historical document written by a bunch of drunk men in a cave over a hundred of years. Heck, its missing by my last count almost 170 books that have been found over the past 2k years.
To sum up this soap box speech this evening, the day the pro lifers “put their money where their mouth is” is the day ill support an all out ban on abortion.
I’m sure that about everyone here can agree with such a statement.
I know many prolifers who “put their money where their mouth is”. I’d say many of them do much more for children in this country than the prochoice side. See, if you think abortion is fine and dandy, then it sort of lets you off the hook for taking any responsibility to help discarded children, because you don’t believe they should have been born in the first place.There are worse things than abortion, I’ll be the first to agree with that. There are some people that should never be parents, I see examples of that everyday. BUT, abortion is still what it is, and that’s denying a life to another person. I can’t sit well with that, no matter how much you all rationalize it.
What have you done lately, Tony to help a child? See my point?
I do agree with you, Tony, that every person has the right to end their lives when there is little hope in order to ease their suffering. We’re kinder to our animals that we are to ourselves in this country. As a cancer survivor, if the “big C” ever comes back to haunt me, I want to be the one making the choice regarding how long I’m willing to suffer and when I want the suffering to end.
I’m not saying that you personally oppose abortion because it relates to sex, “Damoon.”
But the people who are really into the pro-life movement–the Catholic Church patriarchy, the Jerry Fallwells and the Terry Randells–all have a very sex averse position.
Wasn’t St. Jerome who said that it’s better for a woman to get married and be a whore to one man, than stay unmarried and be a whore to many.
The whole deal with Mary-olatry is that she was a VIRGIN and stayed a virgin her whole life.
Tough luck, Joseph.
We see Catholic priests still today having to take vows of celibacy.
Religous wack-os are right now opposing emergency Plan B contraception–just like most pro-life organizations oppose ALL contraception (need I mention the Roman Church again?).
They oppose the vaccine against HPV which would protect women against cervical cancer, because they want any sex outside marriage for procreation to be fatal if possible.
Anti-abortion is just the main plank of the anti-sex agenda.
BTW, no pro-lifer has yet explained why the Lambs of God throw themselves under the wheels of a car to stop the death of ONE unborn baby, but have no problem with the three dozen “unborn babies” created and discarded for every implanted fetus at these eugenic death camps.
We’re waiting . . .
Damoon…
“What have you done lately, Tony to help a child?”
I (and my then wife) decided to have our children. We have 3 boys. All 3 a pain in my ass, as i would expect. BUT it was our decision and our decision was made out of many different factors in our lives. Yes, we both were too young but we wanted to make it work.
Under my current income and life style, i cant afford anything extra. I literally live paycheck to paycheck. Everything i have goes to supporting those three children. That’s what i give and i cant give any more…
You are right, and i also agree with the people who believe that those babies shouldn’t have been born there for they dont want to help, is a very true belief and i support it. I believe that if i did not decide for it than i shouldn’t support it. Now, let say this too… IF a nationwide election were held today and on the ballet was a referendum on abortion, and it actually passed. Than i wouldn’t bitch about the massive tax hike that would incur either…
I believe in majority rule. (that’s why Gore is our true president).
Now, Since you asked DA, what have you done for a child lately?
The list is quite long, Tony, and it doesn’t take money, just time. I have raised 3 kids, also. I understand all too well the finacial strain involved in having a family. But that never stopped me from helping children outside of my comfort zone. I’m a fierce child advocate, which means I don’t believe in killing them because they happen to be disabled, inconvenient, or unwanted. I’ve never looked into the eyes of a child and thought to myself “this world would be a better place had you never been born”.
For arguments sake. (which i love a good argument)
What do you do with the children that are unwanted who have disabilities and can/will never become a productive memeber of society?
Are you saying that it is societies job to care for these children through out their entire life until they die naturally?
Da,I’m sure you do know pro-lifers who put their money where their mouth is. Most of the ones I’ve observed though, have no business keeping their own children, let alone adopting others. I’ve seen the children the protesters bring to the clinics.Some look half-starved and bear marks of abuse.One, an infant, was left for several hours in a locked car in 100+ degree weather while his mother yelled “baby-killer” at women entering the clinic, until we called the police and had the child removed.One of the adults was caught sexually abusing a child in the middle of a protest by the parent (a pro-lifer).One of the leaders invited a convicted child rapist to approach and talk to children coming out of a local school, in violation of his parole (”It’s all right; I know him, and he’s been born again.”)Several of the men there had abandoned families to join the movement, and were travelling to avoid paying child support.Several were also preaching racial hatred, and one had klan slogans and symbols all over his van- he was the one who brought all the little white crosses.Another had recently been paroled for killing his wife, and offered to go get his shotgun and blow my head off too.These are not people whose values we should be promoting!
I think the who does more and who is responsible is a pointless arguement. There are prolifers so giving of themselves that I think if anyone has a right to have that opinion it is they. There are prochoicers as much dedicated to the causes of women and children in need. We are all responsible for the needy in our society. What we should do and what it will cost are serious issues. I do object to lines of arguement that suggest prochoicers must believe in infanticide, euthanasia, etc because they believe in a woman’s right to choose.
Tony-I think the question is more what constitutes a natural death. I have no problem at all with families that choose to devote enormous time and resources to the care of very incapacitated children. I object to a belief that we must morally do any and every surgery or therapy no matter how expensive at any cost to society. That anything else is euthanasia and morally bankrupt. I don’t believe in vitalism – that continued cellular respiration is a good to be maintained at any and all cost. I recognise that some might say heart surgery on a Down’s syndrome baby is too much, and I disagree. That is the problem – we are going to have to make some very hard decisions. But, a free-for-all system that costs us all an every increasing share of GDP is immoral as well.
Testing Testing… The blog work yet???
Tony,Yes, I agree with almost everything you said, but there’s more to it than the numbers.Why should a woman be required by law to produce the offspring of the guy who raped her? What about the woman whose health would be at risk if she carried to term?There are some places where the law has no business, and our choices concerning what our bodies are to be used for is one of those places!
The Republicians should suport abortions because, according to statics I have seen, the President, and Congress would all be in the hands of the Democrates if it wasn’t for all the Democrates aborting. Since they have the most abortions done, They have lost voters by aborting them.
“In the actual popular vote for president in the 2000 general election in Florida, George W. Bush was declared the winner by 537 votes. But if the 260,962 Missing Voters of Florida had been present to vote, Al Gore would have won by 45,366 votes. Missing Voters–through decisions made in the 1970s and early 1980s, encouraged and emboldened by the feminist movement at the height of its power–altered the outcome of the U.S. presidency a generation later, in a way proponents of legal abortion could not have imagined.
Examining these results through a partisan political lens, the Democrats have given the Republicans a decided advantage in electoral politics, one that grows with each election. Moreover, it is an advantage that they can never regain. Even if abortion were declared illegal today, and every single person complied with the decision, the advantage would continue to grow until the 2020 election, and would stay at that level throughout the voting lifetime of most Americans living today”
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110005277
I think it is a dream of the republicans that only democrats have abortion – it means their little girls can’t be resposible, and it just isn’t accurate. clinic workers recount stories of protesters themselves coming and having an abortion. As always – the only ethical abortion is my abortion (or my little girl’s) no matter what political party.
The actions of the extremists have nothing to do with what I believe. There are monsters on both sides, just like there are good people on both sides, Jed. I owned the property next door to Tiller’s abortion clinic and my mom also lived across the street from his clinic for years. Believe me, much of the outrageous behavior I saw was also from the prochoice side.
Tony, to answer your question, yes, I do believe our society has a responsibility to care for and provide heath care to disabled children up to the time of their death. If we can throw away trillions of dollars on tearing another country apart and rebuilding it, we can certainly afford to care for our disabled.I’m sorry that you don’t seem to have much compassion for children. Thank God, for many of us, our responsibility to them is a no-brainer.
Da,I’m sure you are speaking of the “Summer of Mercy” of ‘92, and yes, from what I heard, there was plenty of outrageous behavior to go around. Since I had other resposibilities at that time, I wasn’t there to see who did what. When I did clinic support at Tiller’s, we all stayed inside the fence most of the time. The anti’s were outside, sending their kids into the street to block traffic, blowing horns and shouting. We tended pretty much to the business of getting clients safely past the mob.
I was there for the “Summer of Mercy” and long after that, I don’t remember anyone “sending their kids into the street to block traffic”, or anyone molesting kids, or abandoning their children to support the cause, and I never saw any prolifers bring their bruised and abused children to the clinic. What I did see was prolifers who were mostly respectful and kind. I was there when George Tiller got shot, and it was the prolifers that came to his aid and gave him comfort until EMS could get there. I remember Dr. McGuire, a well known pediatrician, who silently protested and prayed in front of Tiller’s clinic every morning after he retired from his practice. I remember the prochoice bullies that used to threaten this gentle, elderly man with bodily harm for exercising his right to free speech.I remember when Tiller did free abortions once a year in celebration of Roe vs Wade, the prochoice side yelling and clapping everytime a woman was brought in to the clinic, like having an abortion was something to feel happy about and celebrate. I felt so sorry for those women, and wondered how they must have felt when the worst choice they may have to ever make was treated with such tackless insensitivity.I remember the obscenity spewed by the prochoice side toward the prolifers.I remember the prochoice folks trespassing on my property and damaging my yard without giving it a second thought.I was so happy the day I sold my house to Life, Inc. and it became what it is today, a medical clinic next door to the abortion clinic that offers women support and alternatives to abortion.By the way, I’m posting under my real name from now on.
I also remember the woman who moved in next door to me so she could volunteer as an escort at Tiller’s clinic. After I sold the house to Life Inc, she called the media and told them that the prolife group that bought my house were storing weapons and bombs in the basement and plotting terrorist type activities against the clinic. Of course the media jumped all over that one, the same way they did when I sold the house to the prolifers. One of the tactics the prochoice camp likes to use is to lie about and demonize the prolifers, making them out to be the worst sort of human beings imaginable. It’s just not true.
I remember not so long ago I was over at Davis Moore looking at cars when i watched the Pro-Lifers run in front of the car trying to enter Tillers place…
They rocked the car and yelled profanities, calling her a murder.
Is this the type of actions that you condemn?
Mary – I do remember Dr. Tiller being shot by Shelley Shannon. Do you endorse such terrorism?
Tony and Ben, of course I don’t endorse the behavior of a few extremists. That’s part of the problem, you tend to see things in black and white, right or wrong. I will never condone abortion and I will always do whatever I can to help a woman in crisis find an alternative. BUT, I don’t think abortion should be outlawed, because it wouldn’t be right for any woman to risk her life in order to end her pregnancy. Like I said before, the actions of the extremists on both sides have nothing to do with my beliefs.But, for every incidence of inappropriate behavior on the part of the prolifers, I can cite an equal incident perpetrated by the prochoice side. Neither extreme is effective in facilitating a change of heart in the opposition. It’s only through compassion, education, and providing alternatives that effective change will happen.It is hypocritic of those who champion the prolife ideology and then use violence to make their point. Just like it’s hypocritic for people to be horrified that someone would take a shot at an abortionist, but yet condone the fact that he kills humans all week as his choosen profession.
By the way, my new granddaughter made her debut into the world a week ago today. “Violet Skye” weighed in at a healthy 8.6 lbs. and her mother used no anesthesia what so ever! My daughter in law is my new hero…of course she says she’ll NEVER do it again (just give her a few years!)!
Congrats Mary
Cool name Violet Skye
Geez you daughter in law has guts! Was your son in the room? Is HE alright??
I used to be “pro life” Frequent readers understand my use of the quotes. Mary you truly are pro life. Good on you.
Mary,
It sounds like you are a very reasonable person…
I appreciate your post, i wish more people are like you…
Thanks
Mary,Congratulations on your new granddaughter! May she do to your daughter what your daughter did to you!
Ha! Violet is my son’s first child, if she gives him what he gave me, he’s already in big trouble! And he’s already starting with the “My kid will NEVER do this, and my kid will NEVER do that…….I can’t wait, LOL!!!
Mary,Sorry about that.It sounds like it’s time to tell your son that 15yrs, 51wks from now, his daughter will go with friends and get her drivers license, will come home and sweet-talk him out of his car and will be 4hrs late getting home, during which, your son will age 20yrs. So Sayeth the Prophet(who knows a sure bet when he sees one)!
Good! He did it to me plenty of times!!! I just pray that she’ll grow up safe and sound. It’s a scary world out there.
Yeah,
“Grandma? What was snow?”
Mary,Congrats on the new grandbaby!!! I’m sure she’s a sweetie and will have you and grandpa wrapped around her finger in no time at all!
Thanks, Julie! Good one, JR. I’ll have to make sure she learns to swim!I’m going to retire on top of a mountain in Colorado, then all I’ll have to do to go scuba diving is hike down to the base.
The Catholic Church is anti-sex? Really? Then where did the 1 billion plusCatholics in this world come from? I guess we just pop right outta the ground like cornstalks. Who knows why the Lambs of God throw themselves under cars? Why don’t you ask one of them instead of resortingto libel and smear-tactics on the pro-life movement? Let’s get one thing straight: the Catholic Church is not responsible for the actions of the separated brethren.They chose to follow their own path and broke away from us centuries ago. Also, the Catholic Church was the first to initiate the pro-life movement ever since before the Protestants were terminating their unwanted pregnancies.ICthus,Conversing with someone as ignorant as you would prove to be fruitless. One does not talk aboutholy things with ungodly beasts such as yourself. After all is said and done, God will establish His justice and punish every lyingtongue that has slandered and ridiculed us throughout the ages.So be content with your brief meaningless existence and return to your sanctuary of ignorance, like the dog that returns to it’s own vomit. I for one refuse to throw pearls before swine.
My, CruW,Seems to have struck a nerve there! Sometime you might want to Google the Malleus Malificarum. It’s a Church document that has set in stone Catholic (as well as some Protestant) views on both women and sex.
Growing up Catholic, I remember how the priest was always preaching the evils of birth control when I was a kid and I had no idea what the heck he was talking about. I wish that the church would have evolved a little more since then. No one should be expected to have as many kids as possible, it was such a drain on the mothers and the family as a whole to keep bringing children into the world when they could barely support the ones they already had. I would hope today that most Catholics are more enlightened and responsible today.I always remember how women were second class compared the men, but that was true for society as a whole back then, it wasn’t just isolated to the church.
Mary,There are still many old Catholics who are like that. Just like there are those Catholics who still adhere to the pre-Vatican II belief that salvation is attained only by those who are a part of the Catholic church. Mine is a generation which for the most part don’t even bother with religion. They see it as irrelevant to their lives, and/or don’t wish to live according to the demanding Catholic social teachings. People usually say that the church has grown out of touch with the world, but I don’t believe this is true. There is nothing new under the sun. The scandals and the splintered factions that have arisen among Catholics at present have always been present as long as the church has existed. I guess people think so much of the church that it has to be perfect, or else they get angry and leave. But how can a church which is comprised of imperfect people ever be perfect? Even the Apostles weren’t perfect, how much will we be tempted by the Evil One who reigns in this dying world? We have no other choice but to ride out this storm, with unwavering faith until the day of Atonement comes.