President Bush, reacting to the rising level of destruction in Lebanon, said Thursday that he was “troubled” — but apparently not troubled enough to work for an immediate cease-fire. Bush said he was holding out for a “lasting peace, not a fake peace.” The administration has discounted the possibility of a cease-fire until Hezbollah is disarmed, though Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair said Friday that they support a multinational force to help Lebanon regain control of the southern part of its country from Hezbollah.
But Hezbollah isn’t going to be disarmed anytime soon. My guess is that the thousands of innocent Lebanese who have become war refugees would appreciate some of that “fake peace” right now. Many believe the Bush team’s diplomatic foot-dragging is meant to buy time for the Israelis to inflict more damage on Hezbollah and leave the terrorist group with less leverage in negotiations.
But the widespread destruction in Lebanon risks a wider conflict and is playing right into the hands of Hezbollah.
Posted by Randy Scholfield
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170 Comments
it’s great when Scholfield is in charge…
Indeed. Peace at any price, that’s what I always say. Leave ‘em alone, and they’ll leave us alone, right? Now, let’s all run down to the Jewish Center for a nice game of canasta with our friends. Nothing can happen to us there.
MORE GRAFFITI
a cease-fire isn’t nothing more than a reload period.
Interesting article on how others see U.S. reaction to suggested peace talks.
Mideast war tests U.S.-European relationshttp://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14067216/
A cease-fire must be the first step – but not the last. Then must follow release of hostages ON BOTH SIDES and the rebuilding of Lebanon. The fact that we have targeted regular Lebanese Army for missle stikes will make that task infinitely more difficult. The fact that we have leveled hospitals, have attacked refugee convoys, etc etc, will also play into the hands of Hizbollah.
We had a “cease-fire” with Saddam Hussein. Remember how he honored his promises?A cease fire in war is like giving a losing opponent in any sport time to recover from injuries or regroup.Never in history has peace been acheived through anything other than a clear victory at war.
I’m glad you brought up Iraq Paul!
You are useful now and again!
Saddam Hussein was contained and basically impotent. He also wasn’t getting any Americans killed. Of course, this has now changed. Was getting Saddam worth the cost in American lives and Iraqi civil war? Well to Paul Halliburton and bush maybe. I don’t know that anyone else is benefitting by it.
Lebanon? Same thing. Hezbellah had issues. But mostly those issues were contained. Tit for tat. This for that. This TOO has now changed. One hopes that it will only be Israel that will suffer for this and that the US will work to defuse the situation. One hopes.
Israel will never win. As history past and very present demonstrates, an invading power only grows an insurgency as opposed to defeating it or dealing with it.
JR explain the hundreds of rockets that are fired on Israel everyday by Hezbellah.
I guess your an anti-semite as well. Actually a lot of leftist are Holocaust deniers also. I suspect you’re one of them.
http://www.archive-news.net/Articles/SH040923.html
Saddam was still causing problems for us, even during the so called cease-fire.Saddam was very involved in the firts WTC bombing.A cease fire is a chance for the bad guys to come up with a new strategy to kill us, unaffraid that we will kill them first.
Joe?
You oft post that Christians are self righteous and judgemental. SOME of them are. But you tar all of them with the same brush.
Aint you kinda judgemental Joe? Pretty wide brush you tar me with that last!
I am not anti semitic. My grandfather helped liberate a concentration camp so I’m not a “holocaust deniar” either.
I guess you could say I’m anti Zionist. I don’t think God goes about handing out land. I’d invite him to speak on the matter. Old books do not for me justify destabilizing an entire region so that some folks can have a “homeland”.
Most of your post was about me. I’m glad I could clear up some of your liberal interpretation of me.
The issue at hand is just a little bigger.
How many rockets was Hezbollah firing on Israel before Israel invaded Lebanon Joe? And was Israel provoking some of it?
“Saddam was very involved in the firts WTC bombing.”
Got proof, Paul? And none of your Bushspeak links, either. Try something government issued, just to make things interesting.
RDSandy Burger was in the “government” and tried to hide some information. He got arrested for that, remember?Jammie Gurilick was more responsible for 9-11 than any other official, yet she sat on the “Commission” which basically covered up Clinton’s mistakes.I will get my links from wherever I choose.I am surprised that you object to quotes straight out of the MSM, guess it depends on what the quotes say, huh?(Don’t forget, I don’t much like links in the first place, since EVERY link is biased. By the way, EVERY Government report is biased as well.)
http://www.archive-news.net/Articles/SH040923.html
It’s Jamie Gorelick, Paul. Whatever.
Why have fake peace when you can have genuine war?
So a “peace” which will allow Hizbullah to obtain more rockets from Iran, is a good idea? I see ..
You got to love liberals. They are so dependable. Whatever they are for – is always wrong and should be resisted.
What are YOU for LRB?
You never quite tell us do you?
Riddle me this: What is the US strategic or resource interest in Israel? Is there any?
Bush does not dare cross his Neo-Cons calling for a cease fire or even to tell Israel that they too are a part of the problem. George W. does anything the Neo-Cons want and they want war.
“So a “peace” which will allow Hizbullah to obtain more rockets from Iran, is a good idea? I see ..”
LRB, this kind of statement is known as a “non-sequitur.” Look it up.
Why doesn’t Israel bomb Iran if they are indeed the source of rockets for Hezbollah? Why bomb innocent Lebanon women and children? Go after the source!
Independent – because Iran will shoot back. Lebanese hospitals have no anti-aircraft capability.
Until a year ago Lebanon had anti-aircraft capability; we pressured them to remove it.
JR – Hizbollah began launching rockets AFTER Israel began bombing civilians in Beiruet. The attack by Hizbollah prior to that had been against a MILITARY post.
Joe – just because we do not want to see every Muslim child killed like you apparently do does not make us anti-Semites or Holocaust deniers.
Thanks for the non-answer, Paul.
Rage, since you know how to spell Gorelicks name well enough to correct me, you obviously agree that she was the person in the Clinton admin responsible for not allowing CIA and FBI to talk to each other about terrorism. Therefore, Gorelick was responsible, more than any other official, for 9-11. And, Gorelick sat on the 9-11 commmission, when she should have been the SUBJECT of that commission.BenThe truth is, Hizbollah has been sending rockets over the border towards Israel since before the last 2 hostages were taken.
right you are Ben – that’s my point. Israel does not have clean hands in this fighting any more than Hezbollah. No matter what the Neo-Cons want the world to believe.
Paul, much as you want to drag this thread off-topic, I’m going to pass.
I don’t think Rage is gonna like you telling him what he believes Paul.
The official most responsible for 911 is the guy you call President. I call him lotsa things but his name is bush. All the intelligence gathering/cooperation between gathering agencies in the world is useless when bush doesn’t read it. Do you forget or selectively fail to note that he had a memo about “Bin Laden determined to attack United States” in his HANDS while on vacation just a month before the attack? That was in a documentary you probably didn’t see.
Oh Paul? What you posted Ben about Hezbollah? Proof guy! Ya gotta have proof!
A less than interesting bit of fluff Paul. But you are encouraged to try again.
I wish Ed would post more. The more I learn outside the US media, the less I like Israel.
” wish Ed would post more. The more I learn outside the US media, the less I like Israel. ”
At least you didn’t call them money grubbing Jews.
Did you every ask why Israel is targeting ambulences and homes?
Of course not – the answer is that Israel is bad, terrorists are good, right?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ONKb9J2YeU&search=terrorist%20ambulence
“You’re either with or with the terrorists!”
That indisputably moronic W. quote sums up what passes for LRB’s mentality.
RageThe point is that Cease-fire with evil, whether evil be in the form of Saddam or Hizbollah or Hamas, only allows more evil.Cease fire with terrorism is like calling for a police cease fire with the Crips and the Bloods. (Hey guys, if we quit arresting you will you promise to be good and not shoot at us??)The terrorists are the bad guys, they must be defeated.Anything less than victory for the West will be defeat for the West.Civilian causulties are tragic, but the terrorists hide among civilians on purpose and target civilians on purpose.Israel must defend itself and civilian deaths are the moral responsibilty of the cowardly terrorists.
“”You’re either with or with the terrorists!”
You are obviously with the terrorists.
Again, let me repeat this.
I think the US troops in Iraq and Afghanistan should drop their weapons and start walking home. The people on the home front like you aren’t worth defending. Let the terrorist win.
The “scary terrorists” bit doesn’t work on the American people anymore LRB and Paul.It was used as a magnificent distraction for a good while but has now run its useful course. I’m surprised it’s used at all! You know, since the war on terror started creating more terrorists than it apprehended?
LRB? You must have missed where I asked you about the US strategic or resource interest in Israel. Paul can answer that one too. While I do not hate Israel or Jews, I do question the plus and minus of Americas never failing support of Israel. Can you explain it to me?
“While I do not hate Israel or Jews, I do question the plus and minus of Americas never failing support of Israel. Can you explain it to me?”
http://shamash.org/holocaust/photos/images/EG1.jpg
http://www.holocaust-history.org/hungarian-photos/jpg/05-0512.jpg
http://www.holocaust-history.org/hungarian-photos/jpg/12-1142.jpg
This may come as a surprise but Hezbollah was never a terrorist organisation. Hezbollah has always served the needs of poor people and the seniors with health-care, clothing, medicine and food and shelter. They are charged by Islam to protect and defend and care for the less fortunate.
And if you don’t believe me then just look at Lebanon and tell me what you see.
Everything you’ve heard about them is a fucking lie from the G-d Zionist Jews, who are rotten to the core and worthless.
And if you don’t believe that then just look at Lebanon and tell me what you see.
And that is the reason that President Mahmoud Amadinejad said they should be wiped from the map.
Now if what I’ve told you doesn’t match-up with all the shit the Zionist Jews have put into your head, then you need some serious house-cleaning inside your mind.
Paul – that which you describe as evil was created from the brutal decades-long Israeli occupation of Palestine and Lebanon. The evil was planted and nurtured by the occupiers.
“The “scary terrorists” bit doesn’t work on the American people anymore LRB and Paul.”
http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/files/wtcjumper3.jpg
I wonder if he was scared?
According the the Third Reich the French and Polish Undergrounds were terrorist organizations.
LRB – and I wonder if he knew it was SAUDIS, not Iraqis or Lebanese, who caused it.
I wonder if the women and children targeted by our missles feel scared?
“This may come as a surprise but Hezbollah was never a terrorist organisation.”
So filling Katusha rockets with ball bearings is just a plea to be understood, right?
US servicemen, start walking home. When you get here pick up a gun and lets start a Civil War. Peolpe like the above example would provide arms to the people trying to kill you. These are no longer your countrymen.
I asked for a definition of US strategic or resource interests in Israel and LRB gives me Holocaust links. So our motivation in so dutifully faithfully supporting Israel is …….sentiment?
How about some sentiment like Ben suggests? You know, for the people Israel is killing?
I mentioned that the “scary terrorists” meme doesn’t work at grabbing the American people and distracting them and LRB gives me a 911 picture?
Weak dear. Quite weak.
I don’t know LRB – is bombing a UN observation post “just a plea to be understood”?
Where did this asshole come from?
J R – they don’t count; they are not of the correct religion or ethnicity.
Never mind that our missles are also targeting Christian communities.
“I don’t know LRB – is bombing a UN observation post “just a plea to be understood”?”
Hizbullah terrorists were firing Katusha rockets into civilian areas using the useless UN post as cover. The UN is as useless as a democratic presidential candidate.
But keep repeating:
Terrorists are good and Israel is bad.
Terrorists are good and Israel is bad.
Terrorists are good and Israel is bad.
Repeat the mantra with the rest of the liberals. Feel free to substitute America for Israel if you want.
Has this asshole ever heard of a “cluster bomb” or a “daisy cutter?”
Sure thing LBR – mantras obviously work for you:
“Killing Lebanese and Palestinian women and children is good, fighting back is bad.”
Ed I need to apologize here. I have not always read the links you post. And as you know, I think you often go too far.
But I would say to you to keep posting those links. I don’t think I trust my government or the media to accurately inform me on Israel anymore. I would also welcome links and info from Ben.
I have asked these things of the right and I get no answer or senstionalism. I can get that watching TV.
Ed – he is evidently a Muslim-hater and includes any Christians who live among Muslims in his hatred.
“I mentioned that the “scary terrorists” meme doesn’t work at grabbing the American people and distracting them and LRB gives me a 911 picture?”
No connection there at all is there? Those planes full of innocnet people were crashed in the the WTC by Evlis and Bigfoot. They were hired by Cheney an Halliburton, right?
Terrorists are good – America is bad.
Terrorists are good – America is bad.
Ooooommmmm ….
“”Killing Lebanese and Palestinian women and children is good, fighting back is bad.”"
Perhaps the terrorists should bring their fight to your neighborhood. After all, as an American you are personally repsonsible for these deaths.
Don’t expect any help from me. You deserve it.
LRB?
Sweety you need to settle down just a bit.
Deep breaths……
Now tell me. Are you LRB TRULY terrified of angry people on the other side of the planet? Do you wet yourself when you see an Arab?
Or….
Are you just a scare monger trying DESPERATELY to frighten people into not thinking?
LRB, I’m not going to respond to your predictable attack on me.
I see the video shows gunmen getting into a UN ambulance. Deplorable.
Does that mean the U.N. is with the terrorists too? Thankfully, I don’t think Israeli missiles reach that far. I don’t New Yorkers would appreciate it.
Just a note for those who like to use the phrase “anti-semitic”: semites are people who use semitic language which includes Arabs, Jews, some Ethiopians, etc. I know the world is a confusing place with its overlay of culture, religion and politics but trying to educate yourselves will go along way to understanding the current geopolitical situation.
Also, for those interested in educating themselves…read up on the history of the middle-east including colonialism, the Iran-Iraq war and particularly the formation of countries like Iraq and Israel. It is important to put current events in historical perspective. For example, we all remember that the CIA overthrew the democratically elected Iranian president to install the puppet Shah (the Persians certainly remember), to whom we offered the full nuclear cycle around 1978 about a year before the revolution. Aren’t we glad they didn’t get themselves hooked up! This is documented and can be looked up on the web. Yes, it does come down to our foreign policy, and of course to the game of “follow the money”.
Finally, laying aside politics, anyone who doesn’t try to prevent or even “cease” momentarily a war in which most of the victims are children lacks moral integrity and compassion.
LRB – That sounds like treason to me. You don’t get to decide who is and isn’t your countryman.
Sounds like you need a good dose of the Sermon on the Mount to get your priorities straight.
. . . of course, it’s possible that EVERYONE carries guns in that situation. . .
That’s right LRB – those Lebanese women and children deserve it.
As for 9/11 – those were SAUDIS; not Lebanese or Iraqis. Oh yea, I forgot, they all look alike don’t they.
Good point Liz – in fact, Palestinians are more ethnically Semitic than are Europeans, Ukranians, or Russians.
“Has this asshole ever heard of a “cluster bomb” or a “daisy cutter?”
Bombs bad.
We should be dropping flowers on those nice folks who saw the heads off of live people on TV. We shouldn’t try and hurt them. All they want is a nice hug and to feel appreciated.
Good post, Liz. Stick around!
LRB – That sounds like treason to me. You don’t get to decide who is and isn’t your countryman.
Sounds like you need a good dose of the Sermon on the Mount to get your priorities straight.”
People like you are no longer my countrymen. I would not fight to protect you.
Agreed Liz – “Finally, laying aside politics, anyone who doesn’t try to prevent or even “cease” momentarily a war in which most of the victims are children lacks moral integrity and compassion.”
Enter Condi Rice, George Bush, Tony Blair …
And here Paul, LRB, Joe …
A very thoughtful post Liz. Do post again.
See LRB? YOU could do like Liz. You could post links that inform. You could post thoughtfully as opposed to borderline irrationally…as you are now doing.
J R – not borderline …
“Hizbullah terrorists were firing Katusha rockets into civilian areas using the useless UN post as cover.”
You’re LYING as usual, LRB.Not even the Israelis are saying that.
“People like you are no longer my countrymen. I would not fight to protect you.”
I’m sorry about that. Because Patriotism does not mean only fighting for those you agree with.
“See LRB? YOU could do like Liz. You could post links that inform. You could post thoughtfully as opposed to borderline irrationally…as you are now doing.”
Then let me inform you that the Iranians are neither semites or Arabs. They are caucasian Persians. They don’t have the same culture, music, mythology, genetics, or language.
So any inclusion of Iran in this argument on the basis of a similarity with Israel and the Arabs is uninformed.
There are no terrorists. There are pissed-off people because Zionists piss people off.
“I’m sorry about that. Because Patriotism does not mean only fighting for those you agree with.”
Patriots don’t give aid and comfort to the enemy. You are no Patriot.
“Patriots don’t give aid and comfort to the enemy. You are no Patriot.”
You are defining “enemy” as someone with the same citizenship but a different opinion? Are you joking? And since when am I bandaging terrorist wounds?
Not really uninformed LRB – your hatred os Muslim women and children undoubtedly includes Iranian Muslims.
LRB – even Bush does not openly claim that Lebanese women and children are our enemies.
LRB?
You are turning into a cartoon.
Are you REALLY this irrational? Or are you merely trying to encourage it in others?
“You’re LYING as usual, LRB.Not even the Israelis are saying that.”
1. Would the UN do anything to stop the terrorsrist from firig rocket next to their post?
2. Would Hisbullah do this knowing the Israelis wouldn’t dare fire on a UN post?
3. Was surprise the last thing to go through the terrorists minds as the Israelis killed them?
How dumb are you? Wait, don’t answer. I already know.
So is this a cease fire where hunting bin Laden is concerned? Or is this a full laying down of arms?
“You are defining “enemy” as someone with the same citizenship but a different opinion? Are you joking? And since when am I bandaging terrorist wounds?”
In your last few posts.
During the Revolutionary war your kind was chased into Canada.
We may need to do that again.
Could it be? Is this Bigfoot?
Christ, I feel like I’m watching a re-run of “In Search Of.”
Ya know what is REALLY unpatriotic and unAmerican? Calling people with whom you disagree unpatriotic and unAmerican.
How old are you LRB?
Were you a red baiter back in those rather scary times?
Get it out LRB. Would you favor a new House committee on unAmerican activities?
J R – the REAL traitors are those who blindly cheer while America is severely damaged through poor “leadership” as is occurring today with BushdaBum and the bushBots.
[q]Get it out LRB. Would you favor a new House committee on unAmerican activities?[/q]
Actually you democrats and republicans have f*cked this country over for long enough. Now we’re in a war and you want to see your countrymen die and are working to help those who want to kill them.
One party puts people in harm’s way, the other party makes sure they get harmed so they can get some political points.
Soldiers, it’s time to come home. Grap your gun. The tree of liberty needs serious watering.
Agreed Ben.
LRB is fitting that description better with every post.
Cartoon nut person LRB? You are cordially invited to TRY and run me personally out of the country. Want my address?
“Cartoon nut person LRB? You are cordially invited to TRY and run me personally out of the country. Want my address?”
Keyboard courage I see.. :D
Great, so LRB wants to overthrow the U.S. government.
Thanks for going on the record, LRB.
An interesting observation made to be today by a Christian friend: According to Old Testament history whenever Israel has aspired to empire and warred ceaselessly against its neighbors it has been stricken down. I wonder if the barbarism of these ceaseless attacks against civilians have crossed that line?
Yeah Rage,
I thought I knew that was what that “watering” reference was to.
Ya know what’s funny? The very chickenlittles that get the government spying on us for “our own protection” probably got an agency that just took note of LRBs comment!
Shoot yourself in the foot again LRB! You’re funny! In an insane kinda way!
“Great, so LRB wants to overthrow the U.S. government.
Thanks for going on the record, LRB”
If you go to Washington D.C. visit the Vietnam Memorial. There you will find 50,000 names of people who died because “countrymen” like you didn’t support them. The vets still believe in the cause they fought for. What did people like you give them upon their return? Spit in the eye.
Now the same thing is now happening in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Somehow I don’t think ordinary Americns will stand to see your kind bring our country down again.
Am I against the US governemnt? No, just against people like you. We regular people need to rise up and take pur country back from the hippies and the religious right. All you care about is f*cking each other over. Meanwhile our servicemen are dying and you could care less.
I pose another question: Who were the better German patriots? Those who blindly followed Hitler “right or wrong”? Or those who tried to undermine him?
LRB – I know and have known many VietNam vets. They disagree with your thesis.
“I pose another question: Who were the better German patriots? Those who blindly followed Hitler “right or wrong”? Or those who tried to undermine him?”
Hint: Bush is not Hiler and this is not Nazi Germany.
But Stalin had a lot of people like you for support.
Well LRB,
We have 3 Vietnam vets on this forum. (As far as I know.)
They are not in favor of the adventure in Iraq or the government grabbing power by scaring people.
Ben, This AH is a real basket case.
oh how he loves that phony t word.
“LRB – I know and have known many VietNam vets. They disagree with your thesis.”
Bullsh*t.
Go to any VFW post and ask, “How many Vietnam servicemen here think they were doing the wrong thing in Vietnam?”
I doubt you would walk out under your own power.
LRB – this is not Nazi Germany – but you sure wish it was!
The Viet vets I know condemn those who cheerleaded while they were being sent over there. In other words; they hate the likes of you LRB.
LRB you cannot be for real.
This thread is about a CEASE FIRE! You oppose a cease fire and now you want to cite another war?
What if folks like me and Ben and Rage and others had been around back say 1962 and had the internet and the capaity to participate in such important disussions as whether a war should be fought or not?
Might most of those 50,000 have never died?
“The Viet vets I know condemn those who cheerleaded while they were being sent over there. In other words; they hate the likes of you LRB.”
Let’s see … the Vets you *know* did not appreciate those who supported them back home. Right?
Come back when you have a believable argument.
[q]Might most of those 50,000 have never died?[/q]
Ask Pol Pot. He would have agreed with you.
LRB – I really don’t give a damn whether you believe the truth or not. The vets I knew (including my stepbroher by the way) hated the commanding generals and politicians who sent them over there. They all appreciated the support I and others gave them when they got back – but not the lack of support they received from businessmen, the VA, etc.
Pol Pot was created when the CIA overthrew Prince Sihanouk.
But they did die LRB.
Now it is not to dishonor their memory or question their service that I say this. They did what they were told by their country right or wrong to do. And so they died for their country.
In the end……when you add it all up and in the greater scheme of things, they died for absolutely nothing.
Is it REALLY “unAmerican”to hold the gpovenment acountable, keeping that mistake in mind ask questions with the idea of never never again that that should happen?
LRB, I think you missed one (if not all) of the points raised by Liz which was that our (the American government’s) previous meddling into other societies’ governance (as exemplified numerous times in the last 80 years in the Mid East, Central America, South America, Africa, etc.) has not always been for the purpose of peace and often times results in long-term consequences (e.g. the cluster f$%k around the world today). although we are not responsible for much of the suffering elsewhere, we are definitely responsible for some of it. As long as we feel ourselves morally or otherwise superior to anyone, innocents will suffer, the rich will continue to get richer, and the uninformed will continue to support this process. As for human genetics, we are all so similar (as evidenced by the fact that we’re all one species), using race, language, mythology, etc. to indicate major differences is small-minded beyond reason. we should rejoice in what minor differences exist across the world as otherwise, the world would be a uniformly dull place. “If we take the path of avoid harming all other living beings; if we sharpen and focus our mind; and if we gain wisdom then we will end all our misery. -Buddha”.
Uh, LRB….How many tours did you do in Vietnam? More to the point, how many times have you been shot at? Have you ever served in the Armed Forces? (I know the answer to that one just by listening to you).
“Let’s see … the Vets you *know* did not appreciate those who supported them back home. Right?”
LRB, the people I appreciated most were the ones trying to get me and my comrades OUT of that hell-hole.
“Come back when you have a believable argument.”
You come back when you have a defensable arguement.
Liz captured the essense of LRB perfectly:
“Finally, laying aside politics, anyone who doesn’t try to prevent or even “cease” momentarily a war in which most of the victims are children lacks moral integrity and compassion.”
Going to war on a half-hearted basis only causes defeat. And nothing says “I don’t really want to fight” like a call for the proverbal cease-fire.
War is a life or death struggle, there are no timeouts.
XXX – LRB is the sort who would have cheered watching a paraplegic Viet Vet get beaten in his wheelchair by the Los Angeles police. After all, that vet was demonstrating against the war that had cost him his legs so “People like you are no longer my countrymen. I would not fight to protect you.”
I couldn’t do much about the beating at the time – the thugs were armed – but my pictures helped afterwards as we publicized their identities.
Lebanon is not a war, it’s a slaughter.
Ben, LRB talks like a true Chickenhawk. He has no trouble cheering on a slaughter safe and sound hiding behind his keyboard.
Bush has spoken to the need to “win the peace” after this episode is over. He has spoken to the need for rebuilding. I wonder just how he plans to do that on the corpses of a thousand Lebanese civilians.
Then he has the gall to continue to claim that we are friends to the Lebanese. And Israeli Prime Minister Olmert said that he is sure the Lebanese appreciat what he is doing for them!
There’s only one reason to fight a war. That’s when you’re attacked. I had no problem with Afghanistan because they had OBL and we wanted him. We had every right to go after him. And if we’d have attacked the Saudis, I’d have been cheering that war, too. 15 of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi.
But anybody who supports a war for any other reason is just sick.
“Is it REALLY “unAmerican”to hold the gpovenment acountable, keeping that mistake in mind ask questions with the idea of never never again that that should happen?”
You are the government.
I want to ask for a cease fire here for a minute.
LRB? You are getting a thourogh going over here.
But something in me says you would not be so passionate on this issue without a good reason.
I do that. I err on the side of thinking what motivates a poster.
Paul Rosell is a one note shill. See how he wandered off when it got hot.
LRB I am thinking it is possible you have some one in the “line of fire”. Now that wouldn’t excuse some of what you have posted…..but it would explain it.
Do you have someone in the mideast or about to go LRB? If you do you should say so.
POST by LRB: “Then let me inform you that the Iranians are neither semites or Arabs. They are caucasian Persians. They don’t have the same culture, music, mythology, genetics, or language.
So any inclusion of Iran in this argument on the basis of a similarity with Israel and the Arabs is uninformed.”
My Reply:Sorry I don’t have time to enter the fray, however I would like to say that I am fully aware that Persians do not speak a semitic language, they speak farsi (xoda hafez by the way) which is indo-european based. I reread my post and do not see where I implied that they are the same as Arabs. I mention Iran in the context of the regional conflict and history. And, hmmmmm, I find myself reasonably well-informed despite the sanitized and cowardly US media. Good luck everyone!
XXX – how long were you in Nam? Were you familiar with VVAW?
Liz – good comment about Persia. The close linkage between Persia and the Middle East goes way back into the Old Testament. It is also speculated that the Wise Men of the Gospels might have been Persian. And I agree, you never implied that Persians were Semites. Palestinians, however, are. And, as I said above, Europeans and Russian immigrants are not.
By the way XXX – I salute you and your service. However, I still damn McNamara and the rest of his bunch.
58,253 Vietnam casualties. Which 8,253 did you leave out?
http://thewall-usa.com/summary.asp
Ben, the Vietnam tour was a year. Is your email live? Details aren’t for the open blog.
yes – live and real
BenWe agree on something.McNamara was horrible
When ever the subject of Israel comes up, a racist anti Semite (I know, Arabs are Semites too) so a racist Jew Hating person like Ed speaks up.I challenge you dems to do an experiment.Go into a Yahoo Politics or Yahoo Washington Chat room.Say something pro Israel.Wait for all the Jew hating garbage to start.Guess what?The vast majority of anti Jew hatred comes from Anti Bush Democrats!(This, from the party of tolerance?)Of course, Cindy Sheehan can be firmly placed in that anti Jew catagory.
Ben, check your email.
Paul – my position. I believe that Israel has the ‘right to exist’ within the pre-1967 boundaries. I recognize that there are serious questions in its original establishment by force of arms driving millions from their homes but will state that that has to be left in the past. I will also say that the “right of return” of the refugees, although generally recognized under international law, must be relinquished.
That said, I will also state that Israel must abandon the Territories IN TOTAL. Perhaps there might be some mutually-agreed-upon trades of small amounts of land but that’s all. The so-called “Geneva Plan” outlines that.
Palestine and Lebanon MUST be given full sovereignty. Israeli over-flights constitute acts of war against those countries – Israel has been doing that routinely to Lebanon ever since the joint US-Israeli invasion/occupation.
Ironically, IF they can get past their decades of occupation/invasion inspired hatred these countries end up needing each other economically. My dream is still of a Levant-wide Common Market.
If the barbarian tribes of Europe can get past WW2 and create the EU then, with time (a generation) so can these people.
I have a Muslim friend who is less optimistic. He states that all three religions claim that God has given them that land. I question that. As I see it God promished it to His followers – the followers of the God of Abraham/Ibrihim. Well, all three of these religions follow that God.
Under that scenario I would have no claim ot that land – but I don’t want it anyway. However, Christians, Jews, and Muslims all proclaim their fealty to the God of Abraham. Let them follow that God together.
“Isaac, Ishamel – quit fighting” – GOD
By the way PAul – my idea has been endorsed by many in Shin Bet.
As I stated in the other thread, this whole thing has been staged! The two israeli soldiers were captured INSIDE Lebanon. I feel that the present conflict was designed to provoke Iran and Syria into a wider war.
http://www.savethemales.ca/001663.html
Viva La Raza Blanco!!!
Paul,
As a regular in Yahoo Politics Lobby 10, I invite you to join us. Expect not to last long though.
XXX – nothing yet – server must be slow
Paul – is it “Jew hating garbage” or “anti Jew hatred” to oppose bombing hospitals, refugee convoys, UN outposts, babies, etc etc etc?
A thousand dead Lebanese civilians. I suppose they are lesser people; children of a lesser God, in your eyes.
And Paul – say anything nice about an Arab or a Muslim and against bombing hospitals, refugees, and UN observation posts and just watch all the name calling “anti-Semite” Jew hater” etc come flying.
The vast majority of anti Muslim hatred comes from BushBot Republicans!
BenI think your plan for “Peace” makes sense.The problem is, of course, that Hizbollah and Hamas and even the old PLO all want Israel completely destroyed.Didnt Israel try to make peace through “land for peace” this time?Also, there are Arabs working for the Israeli government. There are Arabs serving as elected officials in the Israeli government.I think Israel has proven its ability to get along with its neighbors, and with any Arabs that want to get along.I think two of Israels neigbors, Jordan and Egypt, have made it pretty clear that they dont want the Palestinians in their country. Otherwise, Israel would clearly be better off giving the West Bank to Jordan and Gaza to Egypt and letting Arabs police the Palestinians.For what ever reason, everyone agrees that the Palestinians are not governable. No other Arab country wants them.And, by the way, there were Jews in Palestine prior to the UN resolution creating the modern state of Israel.I appreciate your concession that the right of Israel to exist must be accepted.However, there NEVER was a Palestinian state, it is not like a new country being planted on an old one.
Paul – there might not have been an independent Palestinian state but there have been a Palestinian people for centuries. The fact they they have been oppressed ‘forever’ is a big part of the problem.
As for your claim “Israel try to make peace through “land for peace”" that is not really true. That was Rabin’s dream – and that is why Israelis murdered him.
Israel is willing to allow a token few Arabs have rights; however they deny rights to the vast majority of their Arab subjects. There is an obvious demographic reason for that – they would become a minority in their theocratic state.
And yes, there were Jews in Palestine for centuries. They too lived under the rule of other countries. The current mess began when the European immigrants sought to rule over everyone else.
There was a peace-keeping force there in the 40s. It left after a terrorist bombing at the Kimg David hotel. The US supports the successors to the terrorist group that carried out that terrorism.
BenI still support Israel.I did NOT write the following, but I think it is true and worth noting about Israel:
Some claims about Israel…
The Middle East has been growing date palms for centuries. The average tree is about 18-20 feet tall and yields about 38 pounds of dates a year.
Israeli date trees are now yielding 400 pounds/year and are short enough to be harvested from the ground or a short ladder.
Israel the 100th smallest country, with less than 1/1000th of the world’s population, can lay claim to the following:
The cell phone was developed in Israel by Israelis working in the Israeli branch of Motorola, which has its largest development center in Israel.
Most of the Windows NT and XP operating systems were developed by Microsoft-Israel.
The Pentium MMX Chip technology was designed in Israel at Intel.
Both the Pentium-4 microprocessor and the Centrino processor were entirely designed, developed and produced in Israel.
The Pentium microprocessor in your computer was most likely made in Israel.
Voice mail technology was developed in Israel.
Both Microsoft and Cisco built their only R&D facilities outside the US in Israel.
The technology for the AOL Instant Messenger ICQ was developed in 1996 by four young Israelis.
Israel has the fourth largest air force in the world (after the U.S, Russia and China). In addition to a large variety of other aircraft, Israel’s air force has an aerial arsenal of over 250 F-16’s. This is the largest fleet of F-16 aircraft outside of the U. S.
Israel’s $100 billion economy is larger than all of its immediate neighbors combined.
Israel has the highest percentage in the world of home computers per capita.
According to industry officials, Israel designed the airline industry’s most impenetrable flight security. US officials now look (finally) to Israel for advice on how to handle airborne security threats.
Israel has the highest ratio of university degrees to the population in the world.
Israel produces more scientific papers per capita than any other nation by a large margin – 109 per 10,000 people — as well as one of the highest per capita rates of patents filed.
In proportion to its population, Israel has the largest number of startup companies in the world. In absolute terms, Israel has the largest number of startup companies of any other country in the world, except the U.S. (3,500 companies mostly in hi-tech).
With more than 3,000 high-tech companies and startups, Israel has the highest concentration of hi-tech companies in the world — apart from the Silicon Valley, U.S.
Israel is ranked #2 in the world for venture capital funds right behind the U.S.
Outside the United States and Canada, Israel has the largest number of NASDAQ listed companies.
Israel has the highest average living standards in the Middle East.
The per capita income in 2000 was over $17,500, exceeding that of the UK.
On a per capita basis, Israel has the largest number of biotech startups.
Twenty-four per cent of Israel’s workforce holds university degrees, ranking third in the industrialized world, after the United States and Holland and 12 per cent hold advanced degrees.
Israel is the only liberal democracy in the Middle East.
In 1984 and 1991, Israel airlifted a total of 22,000 Ethiopian Jews (Operation Solomon) at Risk in Ethiopia, to safety in Israel.
When Golda Meir was elected Prime Minister of Israel in 1969, she became the world’s second elected female leader in modern times.
When the U. S. Embassy in Nairobi, Kenya was bombed in 1998, Israeli rescue teams were on the scene within a day — and saved three victims from the rubble.
Israel has the third highest rate of entrepreneurship — and the highest rate among women and among people over 55 – in the world.
Relative to its population, Israel is the largest immigrant-absorbing nation on earth. Immigrants come in search of democracy, religious freedom, and economic opportunity. (Hundreds of thousands from the former Soviet Union)
Israel was the first nation in the world to adopt the Kimberly process, an international standard that certifies diamonds as “conflict free.”
Israel has the world’s second highest per capita of new books.
Israel is the only country in the world that entered the 21st century with a net gain in its number of trees, made more remarkable because this was achieved in an area considered mainly desert.
Israel has more museums per capita than any other country.
Medicine… Israeli scientists developed the first fully computerized, no-radiation, diagnostic instrumentation for breast cancer.
An Israeli company developed a computerized system for ensuring proper administration of medications, thus removing human error from medical treatment. Every year in U. S. hospitals 7,000 patients die from treatment mistakes.
Israel’s Given Imaging developed the first ingestible video camera, so small it fits inside a pill. Used to view the small intestine from the inside, cancer and digestive disorders.
Researchers in Israel developed a new device that directly helps the heart pump blood, an innovation with the potential to save lives among those with heart failure. The new device is synchronized with the camera and helps doctors diagnose heart¹s mechanical operations through a sophisticated system of sensors.
Israel leads the world in the number of scientists and technicians in the workforce, with 145 per 10,000, as opposed to 85 in the U. S., over 70 in Japan, and less than 60 in Germany, with over 25% of its work force employed in technical professions. Israel places first in this category as well.
A new acne treatment developed in Israel, the Clear Light device, produces a high-intensity, ultraviolet-light-free, narrow-band blue light that causes acne bacteria to self-destruct — all without damaging surrounding skin or tissue.
An Israeli company was the first to develop and install a large-scale solar-powered and fully functional electricity generating plant, in southern California’s Mojave desert.
All the above has been done while engaged in regular wars with an implacable enemy that seeks its destruction, and an economy continuously under strain by having to spend more per capita on its own protection than any other county on earth.
And your point is? That they are some sort of “master race” and deserve to be above all others?
One reason that they have accomplished so mush is that the US has lavashed billions of aid upon them.
That said, that is also one reason I cling to a common market dream for the Levant.
Paul – a question. You support Israel – so do I. However, do you support a “Greater Israel” that reigns over millions of non-citizen subjects? That is what exists today and has existed for 40 years. In my opinion this situation is corroding the soul of that state. That is why I support a more limited Israel that rules only over its citizens. That means one of two things: either give freedom to the non-citizen subjects (withdraw fully from the territories) or give citizen rights to those subjects (as the US finally did with my people here)
Muslims call non-believers Infidels.
Jews call non-believers Gentiles.
Christians call non-believers, Nonbelievers.
All three of these religions really don’t get along very well and it has been like that for centuries.
Only reason why lately that the Jews and Christians have bind together against Muslims, is because the Jews need Chritians to keep their place Holy i.e. Holy Land or Present day Israel.
If Christians didn’t consider where Israel is today a “Holy” place, they wouldn’t care about the plight of the Jewish people.
What makes Israel different in conflict than African counties? One is a Holy Place, the other is not.
While I think that the Israel nation deserves to defend itself and to help irradicate radicial Islam, I understand the history behind the region and that leads to the USA caring about what happens there.
Ben, I think Israel was well on its way to giving “citizen rights” to what you call its “subjects.”The terrorists wont let Israel make peace.Also, Israel did not accomplish its great success due to American foreign aid. Capitalism and hard work made Israel a success.American aid is minimal compared to the Israeli economy.Dont forget, Israel doesnt have a drop of oil.How is it that liberals can scream bloody murder about Exxon’s profits (most of which go to pension funds and little old ladies and college endowments) — but liberals dont notice that scarcely any Arab Oil money makes it to the Palestinian people. (Bombs, guns and Madrassas funding dont count.)
Here’s a more balanced article on who started what, http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=COO20060720&articleId=2767
Paul – there is zero evidence that Israel was going to give its subjects rights. In fact, Ariel Sharon, when he went to the Mosque in the West Bank, made it clear that Palestinians would remain Israeli subjects with no rights. He stated that the purpose of his visit was to show them who was boss. Coming shortly after the terrorist attack by Baruch Goldstein that sparked the current intefada.
I agree with you about the paltry level of ais given by Arab countries to stateless Israeli subjects. That is deplorable.
Good article. Interesting that when Israel kidnaps Palestinians we say they are “arrested”. When Palestinians or Lebanese capture soldiers we say they are “kidnapped” Israel has “prisoners”; Palestinians and Lebanese has “hostages”
And, as pointed out, these Israeli soldiers had been launching artillary barrages against Palestinian civilians, including the one that blew up a family on the beach. That is terrorism, plain and simple.
On the missle beach lie:
http://www.albionmonitor.com/0606a/copyright/gazabeachbomb.html
It wasn’t Israel. It was a land mine, put there by Palestinian Militants.
The terrorist are very good at using media propaganda to gain sympanthy for their cause. It doesn’t work for me. But they fool a lot of people in the world.
Paul – many years ago a lake in Cameroon ‘overturned’ and released a cloug of gas (largely CO2) that killed many people. The relief efforts after that tragedy were done by the Israeli military – they had the expertise.
When I was at University of Arizone President Numiera of Sudan visited there to obtain arid lands agriculture advice. I remember remarking that he was seeking the ’second best’ since the best was Israeli.
I am NOT anti-Israel as you might believe. However, I believe that when Israelis murdered Yitzak Rabin they destroyed the heart and soul of that country. That heart and soul were shown in Cameroon. What replaced that is shown today in the rubble of hospitals, UN posts, refugee convoys.
Joe – of course Israel denies it. However, from your link, a former US battle-damage officer says it was Israeli:
“A probe conducted by the NewYork-based advocacy group Human Rights Watch contradicts the Israeli findings. Marc Garlasco, who arrived in Gaza a day after the seven civlians were killed to investigate the killings for the organization, said that Israeli shelling was “the likeliest cause” and that “all the evidence” pointed to this conclusion.
Garlasco, a former battle-damage assessment officer for the Pentagon, said that shrapnel collected from the scene, along with X-rays of Palestinians wounded in the blast, had convinced him that an Israeli 155mm shell was the cause of the explosion. He said he had also dug shrapnel out of a car parked near the site of the blast and that this was consistent with his findings.”
This is like the attempt of Israel to claim that the UN post was bombed by Hizbollah F-16s instead of theirs. LIES.
“Palestinians and Lebanese has “hostages”"
Posted by: Ben Huie | July 29, 2006 at 08:42 PM
Ben, I BELIEVE THE DIFFERENCE IS THAT THE PALESTINIANS AND LEBANESE GOVERMENTS DO NOT HAVE EITHER!
? You are saying that the Palestinians are not holding anyone? Nor that Lebanese are holding people?
But you agree that Israel is holding thousands of hostages? (which they are)
Ben, the key word is:”GOVERMENTS”
RA – then why are we bombing the Lebanese government and the Palestinian government? Why do we refuse to talk to the Palestinian Prime Minister – or to other members of that government who are being held by Israel? How can we negotiate when we refuse to talk to the parties involved?
Ben, I didn’t know “we” were bombing them.
According to Prime Minister Siniora his facilities and army have been targeted by US-provided missles. In Gaza and the West Bank government facilities have been under constant bombardment since the Palestinian elections – because we did not like the election results. “We” includes Israel and its arms supplier.
And Condi is there right now saying “do it some more”. Crush the governments of Palestine (such as it is) and Lebanon. And then Bush will complain when the formerly pro-US Lebanese government falls.
Ben, I understand that both the Lebanese government and the Palestinian government said that they had nothing to do with the hostages. My point is only governments can arrest people other wise they are “hostages” and “kidnapped” in reply to your post “why”
“Good article. Interesting that when Israel kidnaps Palestinians we say they are “arrested”. When Palestinians or Lebanese capture soldiers we say they are “kidnapped” Israel has “prisoners”; Palestinians and Lebanese has “hostages”"
Posted by: Ben Huie | July 29, 2006 at 08:42 PM
I will consider your comments from the perspective that you represent. However, you still do not answer my question: Why bomb the governments of Palestine and Lebanon? Why destroy them? In the case of Palestine the shelling began immediately after their election because we did not like how the vote came out.
And why does Rice refuse to even meet with the Palerstinian Prime Minister?
RA – if a foreign government sent agents into the sovereign territory of the United States and siezed an American citizen would you refer to that as an arrest or as a kidnapping? I would call it kidnapping.
Then he’d have to admit that the U.S. kidnapped the alleged terrorist out of a soverign democratic country.
Good point steve – or that Israel does the same.
Unlike our indigenous populations that accepted defeat and were moved to the reservation, the Arabs choose to fight on.
The sons of Abraham have sure screwed things up over there, haven’t they?
An arrest is the action of the police, or person acting under the color of law, to take a person into custody so that they may be forthcoming to answer for the commission of a crime. From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia..
Kidnapping has been employed by brigands and revolutionaries to obtain money through ransom or to hold hostages whose safe release was dependent on the freeing of political prisoners.
It has come to mean any illegal capture or detention of persons against their will, regardless of age, as for ransom; since 1768 the term abduction was also used in this sense. Another case is when two countries are at war: enemy soldiers may be captured in another country and detained as prisoners of war under the law of the capturer’s state, and suspected war criminals and those suspected of genocide or crimes against humanity may be arrested.
Although the victims are usually called hostages, this term also applies to LEGAL hostage-taking, commonly practiced by governments in the past.
http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/
interesting viewpoints on whats going on in the m.e.
I afford my “enemies” consideration. Something Israel does not.
LRB?
Earlier I asked about your passion this issue. I suggested your view might be colored by the fact that you have a loved one “in the line of fire” in the mideast. Since then, you have not posted.
Now THAT is telling in one way or another.
Either you are a shill and have nothing but a political stake in this arguement…….or you have a personal stake.
LRB this forum is not without compassion for folks who have a personal stake in the conflict in the mideast. A long time poster Nathan is shortly to deployed to Iraq. HE is fighting for what he posts here. I respect him not much else but I do respect him that.
LRB if you have a personal stake you should say so.
I marched in a protest in Washington D.C. a few weeks before I was sent to Nam. I thought at the time that they were right, but I still had a duty to go. Disrespect for the soldiers was wrong, but they were young and overzealous. I was still in the Army, when we withdrew, but by that time I was back in the states. I remember thinking wish we could have done it sooner!I don’t belong to the VFW, I suspect alot of members may have been in Nam and support the vietnam war, I also suspect that most of those are part of the majority of viet vets, never shot anyone, and weren’t shot at.
DEATH to all Iraniansand Syrians!!
LizYou lack common sense.Victory can not be acheived against terrorism by giving terrorists a chance to hide, rebuild fortifications and plan their next attack.Historically, cease fire agreements are a strategy by the cunning to defeat the enemy.Any cease fire, at this point, would be a strategic act on the part of a committed foe.Civilians die in every war.Civilians certainly died in WW2. Was it “immoral” to fight Hitler and Imperial Japan?
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/MonaCharen/2006/07/21/ceasefire_now
They blew them out of their cover this morning right? 56 Lebanese civilians killed in their sleep, 34 of them being youths.
TownHall as a reference? You gotta be kidding! Break out the tinfoil, crawl under the bed, and start pissing yourself.
WE WILL KILL THEIR BABIES WHENEVER AND WHEREEVER WE CHOOSE! IT WILL BE JUST LIKE THE PASSOVER WHERE OUR JETS WILL BE THE ANGEL OF DEATH. DEATH TO THE CHILDREN OF THE LESSER RACES!
WE ARE GOD’S CHOSEN PEOPLE. JUST LIKE IN THE HOLY BOOK OF JOSHUA WE WILL EXTERMINATE ANYONE WHO STANDS IN OUR WAY!!!!!!!!
Reuters reporter proves, once again, that we cant trust the media:http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3286966,00.html
i think that this is very good to spill out your comments with out getting into a fight with some one about president Bush. i personly like President Bush. but some of the stuff he does just really makes me mad and upset. this is bullshit that we are still in this war and losing our family over this. but everyone has there own view.
I am an American living in Israel with Lebanese family. If my comment is biased, its biased on all sides. I go to the American school with children from kenya to angola, canada to estonia and everywhere else. The reason Bush did not get involved, was because by UN protocol, he had no right to. This last war was between the Hezbolla and the I.D.F, not Israel and Lebanon. It was self defence on Israel’s part, and whoever tries to tell me otherwise can come out here, learn hebrew and do my history homework for me and then tell me i dont know what im talking about.Furthermore, The hezbollah in Lebanon were firing from civilian neighborhoods and apartment buildings. The Israeli Defence Forces (formerly refered to as the I.D.F) had no choice when defending their country other than to destroy their enemies.