The Democrats are taking the recent Senate vote against raising the minimum wage and running with it. And why not? Polls show that 80 percent of Americans support raising the $5.15-an-hour federal minimum wage. According to Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Mass., via ABC News’ The Note blog, since it was last increased in 1997, pay has gone up 73 percent for CEOs, 24 percent for members of Congress and 100 percent for the president. One idea of particular appeal for the average voter surely is the one newly pitched by Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-N.Y. — to block a scheduled $3,300 increase in congressional pay unless Republicans agree to raise the minimum wage to $7.25.
Posted by Rhonda Holman
Registered?
Commenting on WE Blog now requires you to be a Kansas.com member. Use the links above to register, if you haven't already, or to log in.Contact us
Follow us
Daily Archives
-
Recent Comments
- Phantom on Whose ‘unchecked spending’?
- Phantom on Whose ‘unchecked spending’?
- Phantom on Whose ‘unchecked spending’?
- Pleefer on Open thread 11/24
- Phantom on Open thread 11/24
- donndublin on Open thread 11/24
- Phantom on Open thread 11/24
- Pleefer on Open thread 11/24
- ANTI on Open thread 11/24
- gster on Open thread 11/24
78 Comments
Are there no Republican leaders in Congress who will see their own massive pay increases as immoral, when at the same time they cannot control the purse strings they are charged with controlling, while good men and women must work two or three jobs so that they can try to live up to the ideal of being self-sufficient, and good providers for their children, and pay taxes to feed these pigs at the public trough? They should be ashamed.
Kelly,The Republicans have turned this country into an oligarchy in which the super-rich are prioritized while therest of us squabble for the scraps from their table. Now to things can happen in present-day America: Either we vote these fuckers out of power, or we get rowdy and start a Castro-esque Revoluccion.
“We march by the banner of 1,0000,000 raised fists.”
-Jose Rizal
And raising minimum wage is suppose to solve the inequity problem?
The only people who will benefit are union workers who are indexed to the minimum wage. And guess who is the largest union group in America? Public Employees!
Yep! Raise minimum wage and you just raised the massive payroll of the government, including all the benefits and lucrative retirement packages, the government will need more money to accomedate these pay increases to government employees. Meaning more taxes.
The cycle never ends.
It wouldn’t be so bad if it weren’t for the massive payroll the government has. The government employees millions of people directly. Yep! More than Wal-Mart.
Socialism is here!
And one last thing. The Federal Government shouldn’t be in the business of setting minimum wage. I know the Democrats use it as an issue for votes, because could care less about people that make the minimum wage.
I honestly think that this should be a state issue. States set their own minimum wage, so let them worry about it and let them compete against other states.
If you make the Federal Government set minimum wage, then they are only doing it for votes. If you let the states dictate their own, then you have competition and reason.
I wonder what will happen to all the workers (and potential workers) whose output is valued by the economy at less than the value of the new minimum wage?
A law can force employers to pay employees a certain amount, but it can’t force them to hire or retain workers who can’t produce output valued above that wage.
Poor Public system workers, if their wages are indexed to the minimum wage, they haven’t gotten a raise since 1997!
Care to show proof of that Steve?
I’m a public employee and I’ve not had a decent raise for as long as I can rember. We’ve gotten 1% to 2% each year and our portion of health insurance has gone up 3% to 5% each year (which means I’ve been taking home LESS each year).
So, to say that all public workers have their wages tied to the min. wage is just flat wrong.
That aside, when the min. wage won’t put a family above the poverty line . . . there is a problem.
Joe,Do you have one of those lucrative government jobs? They sound like paradise from the way you describe them.
Joe is right, raising the minimum wage is a winner politically. But it also has the benefit of helping the working poor to the extent that they might be able to cut back from 3 to 2 full time jobs. Improving the quality of life for working Americans can’t be so horribly unpatriotic, can it?
Helping the working poor is somehow so much worse that providing corporate welfare? Please help me understand that reasoning.
I agree with joe. To the extent that the government should set the mark for minimum wage and each state have their own minimum wage based on the cost of living. This would definately make life a lot easier. Especially since the cost of gas keeps going up by the minute.
Everyone needs to consider that the majority of Americans are on or below the poverty level and most are making minimum wage. Maybe this will lower the need for welfare and get tax payers off our back.
I agree with you DD. Raising the minimum wage will have absolutely no effect on me, however I do see it as good both morally and politically.
It’s clear that Joe W. already makes more than the minimum wage.
He probably gets paid on commission or something so he’s unaffected by any increases.
Way to screw over the rest of society just because it doesn’t benefit YOU personally, Joe.
The First Commandment of the Conservative belief system–”I am the only person in the world that matters.”
Heywood, are you related to the Jablowmee Klan??
No, Tracy, but my maternal grandparents were Ben and Eileen Dover.
“Raising the minimum wage will have absolutely no effect on me,”
That’s a very ignorant statement.
Giovanni:In a few google attempts, I am not finding any modal data on U.S. income distribution. Do you know of any such data?
DarwinD—go here:
http://www.google.com/ig/usgov
You should be able to find more info than you can ever sift through!
In a perfect world the increase of minimum wage would be wonderful. I am hesitant to support it however because I can see milk going up to $4.00 a gallon, bread going up to $2.00 a loaf (for the store brand). I’m afraid it will strain all of us. I’m really hoping that within a year and a half the gas prices will go down. If the gas prices would go down it would make it so much easier for us peons to afford milk and bread.
Thanks, Tracy. I was able to find some of what I was looking for.
Ignorant Todd – why?
If you have taken introductory statistics in college, you should be able to follow what these guys are saying:
http://www.bis.org/publ/work184.pdf
Their conclusions: during the 50’s, 60’s, 70’s, and 80’s there were no major shifts in the income modal distributions in the U.S. But there was a significant (in a non-parametic sense) shift in the 1990’s: the upper middle class moved downward toward the lower middle class. [Recall that the mode is the frequency of a value in a distribution - how often something happens]. This worsening situation for the middle class occurred during a period of unprecedented economic growth. These data suggest the Clinton years were not as good for the middle class as I would like to believe. Interesting.
Would like to see this type of analysis applied to the last 6 years.
Only 2% of the US workforce are paid the Minimum wage. Even WalMart pays more. Most are short-term temp or summer jobs.
If you want the wages to go up then you need a shortage of labor. But your illustrious newspaper and Senator Brownback want to keep being “compassionate” to everyone EXCEPT you, by bringing in cheap illiterates to keep the wages at the entry level down. Mostly a wet kiss to Corporate Weinie Factories such as Creekstone in Ark City and the others in Western KS and Wichita Builders Association. This is where the “Compassionate” meets the road with the “Economic Conservative” They can at times be in conflict.
Mostly the labor cost in farming is such a non issue. A recent set of papers leaked out stating that Lettuce pickers wages could double from 10 Dollars per hour to 20 per hour and it would affect the price of a head of lettuce at the store by about 10 Cents a head.
Raising the minimum wage is fine, but it just doesnt pertain to many. Although as stated above the ones that have some sort of formula based on it can be affected.
“Let each state set the minimum wage” ?
Oh OK. In a “right to work” state like Kansas, that would be just about the final means to clean out the place and shut off the lights!
Heard a conservative talking about the minimum wage increase. “But if you raise the minimum wage, this means all other wages go up to.”, he said. Like that is a bad thing!?!
Congress wage automatically goes up $4,000 every year, without a vote.If that is good enough for our humble public servants, then why can’t the average guy get a pay increase equal to the same percent of their pay? Has Congress become that much more efficient and prolific? Isn’t it a bit hypocritical that they spend less time on the job every year and accomplish NADA, and the next year?NADA ver. 2.0 !!!!
Had enough yet?Democrats want to throw the bums out, and now EVEN NEWT AGREES !!
If your objective is to help the working poor, an expansion of the Earned Income Tax Credit would be a much more effective and equitable way of doing so than raising the minimum wage.
http://blog.netesq.com/2006/06/problem-with-minimum-wage-laws.html
That’s a great idea David. Welcome.Do you think that will ever happen with the present state of politics?
States already set their own minimum wage. I thought I’d posted this before, but since nobody remembers…
Kansas Basic Minimum Rate per Hour:$2.65
Premium Pat After Designated Hours:Weekly – 46
The State law excludes from coverage any employment that is subject to the Federal Fair Labor Standards Act.
—–
Here’s the link to all the states:
http://www.dol.gov/esa/minwage/america.htm
Kansas and the Virgin Islands are now the only states with minimum rates lower than the Federal.
6 states have no minimum wage law.
David–
The poorest 50 percent already pay no income taxes.
They don’t need income tax relief, you twit, they need INCOME.
How dumb can you get?
“Had enough yet?Democrats want to throw the bums out”Posted by: TRACY | July 17, 2006 at 01:42 PM
Could it be that the Democrats want to throw the bums out because they want job with the $4,000 raise every year, without a vote?
The EITC, partially because it is a tax credit rather than a deduction, does help working poor people. As a worker’s income rises, the EITC pays less.
Heywood Jabuzzoff, you may wish to read about it before insulting someone else.
I wonder again: if the economy values the work a person is able to do at say, $6.00 per hour, and the minimum wage rises above that, what happens to this person?
SD?
His employers shave a bit of their profit and more fairly evaluate what the worker is worth.
The employer is nothing without the worker.
Other employers are forced to do the same and workers across the economy are valued more. You know, like they should be.
Good point on EITC SD; however why should we subsidize the employer who wants such cheap labor.
JR?
Who get to decide what is a fair evaluation of what the worker is worth?
I would submit that fair evaluations are happening right now. Workers who don’t feel they are paid what they are worth can find employers who will pay them their higher level of worth, if in fact they are worth that.
Employers who see employees being underpaid are able to hire them, pay them a higer wage, and still make a profit.
I think in a wealthy country like the US, it is a national shame that we allow an employer to pay a minimum wage that does not even allow a person working full time to live above the poverty line. I think Chris Rock said it best about the demeaning nature of the minimum wage “If they could pay you less they would”.
The strawman argument that massive amounts of minimum wage workers will lose their jobs as their wages increase is based on the faulty assumption that businesses are now hiring more workers than they need out of the kindness of their hearts. How will a business operate with fewer employees unless they are paying surplus wages now, this line of reasoning is ridiculous at best. Prices may increase and business owners may make less profit, but the typical business that relies on minimum wage labor is not in a position to cut staff.
It is also interesting that the Republican Party that lays claim to Christian values seems to forget all about Jesus and his teachings when it gets in the way of their free market.
Remember: Whatever you do to the least of my people, you do unto me
Anyone that can support a permanent working underclass of impoverished citizens in a country full of wealth should be ashamed of themselves. Every minimum wage earner is a person first and foremost and the fact that the term working poor even exists is a mark of how the morals of our country have been tainted by our greed.
I heard an economist yesterday say that tax revenues are being paid more in this recovery by the wealthy, than in any recovery period since ww2, because the middle and lower classes have not participated or benefited from any recovery so little since ww2!
Wow, good post, Scott!
Haven’t seen kick-butt writing like that since CF and TrueBlue left . . .
I am in total favor of raising the minimum wage, and making it apply to all emplouees, state or federal. But even if the minimum wage is increased, it will probably tied to so many strings, nobody will profit from it but the corporations.
The whole wage/state structure is ridiculous. Kansas legally getting away with a <3.00 minimum wage? Dark ages in spades.
And congress and its wage increase every year doesn’t even deservre words. It should never have happened.
Ya, trust your congressman to do the right thing, just keep your hand on your wallet. Vote all the morons out and start fresh, with people who are intent on kepping campaign promises, not these lying porkers who feed at the public trough now.
If someone gets a raise but prices go up, does that do anyone any good?
What about businesses making very little profit right now? If they have to face increased labor costs, and if they can’t raise their prices, what do they do?
It’s not a straw man argument just because you say it is, Scott.
The way for people to earn more in this world is for them to increase their skills, or for business to make additional capital investment to aid low-skill workers.
If creating wealth and a better standard of living could be accomplished by the simple act of the legislature passing a law, should we be outraged that this wasn’t done a long time ago, and that wages be increased faster and faster?
That, I think, could be called a fallacious argument, which I believe is related to the straw man.
The truth of the matter is many employers hold down employees wages in order to fatten their own bank accounts. When that happens, which is too often in my opinion, it cost the taxpayers in health care, welfare, child care, and lower nutrition for the employees children.
Don’t understand or believe it? Think WalMart.
The real purpose of the minimum wage is to restrict the labor pool.The minumum wage is a “barrier to entry,” keeping some people from effeciently entering the labor market.What is billed as “moral” or just or fair is actually cruel.Why not just pass a law that says all employers must immediately FIRE everyone who is not worth the minimum wage?That is exactly what the minimum wage law does, but we euphamistically call it a “minimum wage” law rather than a “restrict the labor pool to make union workers more protected” law.The labor unions don’t want a large number of people who know how to show up for work, stay drug free, obey reasonable rules of order and productivity, and not cheat their employers.A large pool of people who actually have prior work experience on their resume would make unions less able to strike against employers, since there would be a ready pool of people with basic working skills that could be taught higher level union jobs.The minimum wage kicks people off of the bottom rung of the economic ladder. The minimum wage forces higher unemployment, especially in minority populations.The government is not capable of determining the true value of anything, and should never attempt to do so in a free society.
We used to have unions raising the wages of the middle class, and pulling the minimum wage up with as a result. Now with outsourcing, and the invasion of illegals, there is no barganing power and the middle class and working poor decline.
Scott, if greed is so bad, whut about the “greedy” workers who want to earn more money? By having the government requre that they be paid more, isn’t that greedy?
Good post Scott. You an J M soundly thrashed SDs tired platitudes.
Proll pauls take is puzzling given his mission here. I’ll get back to that.
As Scott said, it is fallacious to the point of ludicrous to assert that employers are currently operating with more workers than they need and that an increased minimum wage would bring unemployment! Now would it bring “hurt”? Perhaps a pinch to those on mahogany row. A little goose won’t too much hurt that crowd.
Now as I posted above, conservatives know that an increase in minimum wage brings increase to ALL wage earners. Most folks call that a good thing! Not fiscal conservatives though. (conserving the wealth to themselves dontcha know) Now what they ALSO know, but keep quiet is the mirror to that reality. A decrease to or removal of the minimum wage would decrease the earnings of ALL workers. Take out the “floor” and it aint nowhere but down for EVERYBODY.
Would this increase employment? YES! Why pay a living wage to ONE worker if you could get 5 for the same price? And as wages fell, well, those second and third jobs start getting necessary for workers just to get by! Hell conservatives could get rid of all sorts of impediments. 40 hour work week? Sorry ya wanna work 75 now. Worker safety? Hey you get hurt they got four more that used to do the job you did. Unions? Buddy if ya don’t like the scraps I toss ya, theres the door!
Like I said, proll Pauls take is puzzling. Cause deal is a stagnant or no minimum wage is a BIG political loser for Republicans. But hey I hope they sell it hard! You know, be honest for a change. “Vote for me! I’ll see to it ya get paid as little as possible!”
Who has the power in the employer/worker equation Susie? Now this is gonna come as a big shock to you, but most employers will pay as little as they can. They already do. The minimum wage mitigates them showing how low they can go.
Dr Love? I don’t know any employers who are hurtin’.
I whole hardely disagree with you JR. Because it is very rare to make minimum wage. Most all people working make way more than that, even illegal aliens and you would think they would be the most exploitative.
McDonalds doesn’t pay minimum wage, Pizza Hut doesn’t pay minimum wage, Wal-Mart doesn’t pay minimum wage. You find my a job that pays minimum wage? You probably will find it in some rural town restaurant, but you are not going to hardly find anything of that in Wichita.
Just walk up to a Dillion’s employee bagging groceries. Ask him/her how much they make. Bet you $100 that they are getting paid more than $6.50 at minimum.
I’m sorry! But the market has already determine the wages already and they are above minimum wage. So no, Employers would not pay minimum wage or below if they could get away with it, in your logic, then everybody would be paid minimum wage and that isn’t true.
Construction workers and slaughter workers get paid well. Shoot! Even you, before you got laid off at evil Raytheon was probably bringing home $18+ an hour.
Raising the minimum wage doesn’t do anything, unless you force it up way to high, lets say $15 an hour. Why not? That’s a living wage.
And don’t talk to me about poverty, because “America’s” standard of poverty is a rich person in 3rd world countries. The Poverty Line in America is somebody with a house, car, tv, cell phone, cable, dvd player, refridgator, and food every single day.
Just admit your a bitter leftist who wants to shaft corporations and have everybody living under a socialized or communist state. I’ll accept it and know where you’re coming from if you said it. But don’t but the BS “working man staving” Democrat propaganda bs.
JR, you said that an increase in the minimum wage increase increases all wages. But isn’t it more accurate to say that might (and I say might) be true, but only for those lucky enough to retain their jobs?
I think your reasoning is truly faulty. When businesses complain about the cost of, say, gas hurting them, and they might have to lay off employees, we all believe that. How is an increase in labor costs (without an increase in productivity) any different?
If you really cared about the plight of low-wage workers, you would reconsider your dangerous positions. It’s neither a liberal or conservative position. It’s merely looking at the realities of the situation.
(by the way, criticizing something by calling it conservative isn’t very compelling argument.)
I suppose we could all go to work for the government, though.
(I’m tempted to call you a leftist troll, but that wouldn’t be nice, would it?)
Call “troll” all you like “sd” I am not new to this forum, you are. I am a known quatity here. You are not.
Joe?
Take a look at sd and proll Paul. Mark my words, you will be seeing more of their like. An election is coming. Win or lose, good or bad, they won’t remain here after that election.
Joe you ARE a known quantity here. You are also so very misguided that it is almost sad.
And we have been through this!”I whole hardely disagree with you JR. Because it is very rare to make minimum wage. Most all people working make way more than that, even illegal aliens and you would think they would be the most exploitative.”
Joe??? This is because there is a FLOOR in the form of the minimum wage! Take out the floor and everyone falls! And illegals Joe? Friends of my folks had a house built. Contractor used at least one illegal. Joe? The illegal was paid FIFTEEN DOLLARS A DAY FOR A SIXTEEN HOUR DAY! That works out to less than a dollar an hour!!Joe the rest of your post beyond that first quote of yours is built on your delusion that employers are inherently generous and that even if you take out the lowest wage they can pay they will continue to pay more. Then you segue to how good the poor in America have it. What they should have it worse? Is that what YOU are fighting for?
“Just admit your a bitter leftist who wants to shaft corporations and have everybody living under a socialized or communist state. I’ll accept it and know where you’re coming from if you said it. But don’t but the BS “working man staving” Democrat propaganda bs.”
Joe? I voted for Ronald Reagan in 1984. What was YOUR politics back then? Nevermind, I know. Joe the descent to the bottom of how employers will treat and compensate employees is just beginning. It will touch you too. You should see that! Hell Joe I have a kid. I aint trying to kill the American dream I’m trying to save it. Cause deal is you are right in a way. If the current course continues we WILL have socialism or communism. It will have to happen to swing the “pendulum” back the other way TOWARD the American dream of elevating yourself above what someone else says you are worth.
http://economistsview.typepad.com/something of interest in “Do economists have any answers”But isn’t it more accurate to say that might (and I say might) be true, but only for those lucky enough to retain their jobs?
SD if our economy is this weak and corporate has a such feudal lord style grip on us all, just what good is it?Remember the system is made up by people. We should be able to change the rules to benefit us all.
The article said, after promoting an increase in the minimum wage: “Policies can protect people from losing jobs, but I think that’s a recipe for stagnation in the long-run.” Is this a good or bad feature of the minimum wage?
I might ask this simple question: Who owns the corporations, if they are so evil?
Your last sentence implies that changing the system to your liking would be a good thing. May I respectfully disagree?
JR, I’m really sorry to upset you.
sd,”Who owns the corporations, if they are so evil?”
I think you better take a look at who owns congress. That is the question that needs to be asked. The answer to that is the corporations. It is obvious to anyone who reads the daily doings of congress.
Congress is interested in keeping their jobs, and that takes money. The corporations supply that money, and for that, congress grants corporations favors not granted to the lower and middle class of this country. Congress may be the skin of this country, but corporations are the skeleton. That needs to change big time.
Yes those poor mistreated corporations just being tore down by the evil masses.
Who owns the corporations? In the 90’s it was more and more owned by the average American. Now, probably more and more by the traditional wealthy, and foreign investors.
Wednesday, April 07, 2004 – Page updated at 12:00 A.M.
GAO: Most U.S. firms paid no tax in late ’90s
By Warren ViethLos Angeles Times
More than half is 66%Tell me corporations don’t own congress with a straight faceWASHINGTON — More than half of U.S. corporations paid no federal income taxes during the boom years of the late 1990s, and those that did were able to shelter much of their income, according to the congressional General Accounting Office.The report showed 61 percent of U.S. corporations paid no federal income taxes from 1996 through 2000. The study was based on an IRS sampling of more than 2 million tax returns, most from smaller companies.
An estimated 94 percent of U.S. corporations reported tax liabilities amounting to less than 5 percent of their income in 2000.
U.S. companies paid an average of $11.88 in corporate taxes for every $1,000 in gross receipts, the study said.
Small firms were more likely to avoid taxation than large ones, it showed. About 38 percent of big companies (those with more than $250 million in assets or $50 million in revenues) paid no taxes during the five-year period.
The report found that 71 percent of foreign-controlled corporations paid no taxes on their U.S. income, while 89 percent had liabilities of less than 5 percent of their income.
The share of tax receipts paid by U.S. corporations has been declining for decades, government figures show. But it has been falling at an even faster rate in many other countries, said Gary Hufbauer, senior fellow at the Institute for International Economics, and any attempt to raise corporate taxes or close loopholes in this country runs the risk of making U.S. companies less competitive in world markets.
The GAO didn’t attempt to determine why so many companies were able to avoid paying taxes. It said possible explanations included legitimate deductions for current-year operating losses, losses carried forward and sufficient credits to offset liabilities. In addition, it said improper pricing of transactions between U.S. and foreign operations could contribute to tax avoidance.
The Senate Finance Committee is reviewing Internal Revenue Service records on almost 700 private agreements the agency has struck with multinational corporations on the way prices have been set for intra-company transactions since 1991. Such transfer-pricing arrangements can be a source of abuse when goods are sold between subsidiaries at inflated prices.
.morg you are correct.Government has been ‘privatized’.
“You probably will find it in some rural town restaurant”
I’m tellin ya… the shortage of workers out here is real, and with the aging of the population, it is only going to get worse. In my new place, we pay dishwashers $5.50, kitchen staff $7, hosts $6.00 and wait staff gets $6.50 AND they can keep their tips.
I ran a display ad for help wanted, all positions, all shifts, in two newspapers for three weeks.I got four responses. Two fourteen year olds that are too young to wash dishes, and two seventeen year olds who had never waited tables. No kitchen help, no sous chefs, no bakers, no housekeepers.
I almost didnt open for lack of help, but the Collyer Community Alliance members guaranteed me x number of volunteers if I would just PLEASE open up.
I did some personal recruiting, offered to educate and help pay for some education, and now I have a great staff and things are working well. But…
Everyone bitches out here about no jobs. My pals in vegas only make $9 in restaurants, and the cost of living is MUCH lower here. I always say, we dont really suffer out here from a lack of jobs. We lack PEOPLE to fill those jobs.
So joe, even in my little restaurant in bumphuc western ks pays waaaaaay more than minimum wage.
Oh, BTW, the house across the street from my new place is for sale. Asking price?
$5000.
heheh
It is so interesting when conservative business-friendly types are against raising the minimum wage.
Correct me if I am wrong on these points:
1) an increase in earnings will mean more money in the economy.
2) more money in wage earners hands will mean more money spent by them in their role as consumers.
3) More spending by consumers is good for businesses.
But if you are a conservative with a zero-sum-game brain cramp, these simple things might be hard for you to understand.
DD,
I’ve been saying for a few years now that, with all the jobs being outsourced and the underemployment of our workers growing larger, these companies who have outsourced or cut benefits and/or wages are killing themselves, in the long run.
When the amount of discretionary income goes down, people purchase fewer products and services. In time, this will begin to show itself to corps. No matter how little they’re paying workers overseas and cutting those employee costs to earn themselves more money, they won’t be selling anything here and will be making less and less.
Cutting off your nose to spite your face is not a good business practice.
Believe me, I see the nose-cutting in the publishing world, every day. It’s not the outsourcing that’s the problem, but it’s the panic that sets in with the guys-in-suits when profits drop. They still make tons of money, but because readers don’t have the extra money to buy books for entertainment–they’re buying groceries and paying bills–the guys don’t see that lower sales and lower profits for them are simply a matter of the slow and weak economy. They start changing things, thinking that what they’re producing and offering the public is the problem. Apparently, they don’t live in the real world with the rest of us. I think that holds true for most corporations.
That we’re even discussing a raise in the minimum wage is disheartning. We’re so greedy that we can’t throw a few crumbs to the disadvantaged? If the economy is in such great shape as the republicans say it is, why not raise the minimum wage?
This is an excellent example of the difference between Democrats and republicans. Democrats believe in the common good. Republicans believe “I got mine, screw you”.
Some people are not worth the mininum wage, this will be true no matter how low or how high you set that wage.The employer should be free to take a chance on someone with poor job skills.As experience increases, that employee can negotiate a better deal from the first employer or find a better job.Again, those of you who support a “minimum” wage are only saying that people below that level do not deserve a job.You can’t wave a wand and make someone worth more than they are.
“As experience increases, that employee can negotiate a better deal from the first employer or find a better job.”
People are staying in lower paying jobs, not so much because they haven’t become more skilled, but because there is not a preponderance of jobs out there to go to. People DO try to negotiate better deals. Do you know what the answer is to that for many employees? You don’t like it, find another job. The worker, who may be more skilled, stays where he/she is.
Gotta get real here, Paul. In a perfect situation, you may be correct, but we are far from being in a perfect situation right now.
Paul your post demonstrates the attitude of someone who has never truly worked for a living. You were generous enough to confirm that for us in an earlier post. I think selling oil and gas royalties and insurance after you failed in journalism could be considered a contribution to some wealthier segment of society; but I don’t think MOST Americans would call it “work”. SO I say you are not real qualified to judge what PEOPLE are worth.
But hey sing on brother! The Republican party IS the party of beg your boss for a raise! Not everybody knows that. You make sure ya tell ‘em good loud and often. Long past time some people knew that.
They’re just showing their real contempt for the working class men and women. They neeed to speak our more, and send their comments into Opinion Line for greater dissemination.
As much as it pains me to say this, I must agree with the Cuban who thinks that lighter skin tones is an indication of being of higher caliber than those of us with darker skin tones. Foreign laborers undercutting jobs that are meant for our countrymen? Hell no!!!
JRYou are an arrogant jerk. I began my political life as a registered Democrat.I was active in a labor union, was actually on a labor union payroll for some special projects, and supported strikes in Wichita, Kansas City and Omaha.A bit of maturity and some training in economics taught me that trade unionism had become corrupt and self serving.First, I stood up in a Union meeting and begged my fellow workers not to strike against Safeway again. For my efforts, the truck I drove to that meeting was vandalized.The strike we had gone through 3 years previous was a success, in part, because of me, yet the “union brotherhood” turned against me simply for voicing my opinion. I was right. Safeway pulled out of Wichita, which I feared would happen.I also received a union newsletter bashing Reagan with a headline, “Is that a ’scab bug in Ronnies ear’ giving him a hard time for not buying a UNION made hearing aid.Give me a break guys, how many of you would check for such a thing before purchasing a hearing aid?At the time, my deaf brother Jimmy was still alive and I took personal offense at this.I did not leave the Democrat Party, the Democrat Party left me, as Reagan said.Your bigotry and prejudice show with nearly every post.
Awwwwww
Proll Paul doesn’t like me!
I think I’ll go right over in the corner and cry!
Hit a nerve did I?
So basically what you told us in the above is that you are a sellout Paul. Oh but selling out wasn’t enough! So here you are attacking the minimum wage and working people and quesion peoples “worth” Little projection working there Paul?
See I made a little different political journey. I started out as a registered Republican. My first time to vote in 1984 I voted Republican. I am sorry for that to this day. I will NEVER vote Republican again. It began with firing the aircraft control union and the right wing war on working people has raged ever since.So what you have done Paul is actually worse than selling out. Your posts here and elsewhere betray a lockstep with the GOP party of big business. Thus it would be useless to try and reason with you. My pockets aren’t deep enough!
Funny, the right is mostly against prostituton. Difficult to square with the fact that a lot of them are “whores”.
Keep selling your war on the working people proll Paul. Let’s get the GOP back under their little rock where they belong!
JRWhere would “working people” work if their weren’t any businesses left?How can you hate employers and love employment?Is a government job the only kind of job that is pure?Unless, of course, you are a radical unionite that hates his job.
I would say to Darwin’sDisciple that an increase in labor costs without a corresponding increase in productivity leaves less money in the hands of business owners, be they large corporations or small shops. The amount of “money in the economy” is unchanged.
proll Paul and SDs arguements would be a little more valid……….30 + years ago.
Small shops SD? Uh where? Most of that is gone now…the main course for Wal Mart.
DDs arguement is sound. Higher wages for workers (which can only be achieved through the use of a minimum wage as a floor) distributes capital from already wealthy owners and share holders to the folks who actually make products and provide services. This affords workers the ability to enjoy also goods and services.
Henry Ford knew this. He said that he needed to pay his workers a wage that would afford them to buy and use his product!
We can import just about anything nowadays. Not a good thing that. But what we CAN’T import is a middle class. We can import the stuff of a better and more comfortable life. We CANNOT import the means of the average working American to afford it.
And DO NOT use that to justify reducing wages to make Americans competetive with foreign workers. That is what tarriffs are for. Americans cannot be competetive with foreign slave labor without sharing the same living conditions as that labor pool.
Is that what the right is selling??? Well hell be honest about it!! Say it LOUDER!!!
Money don’t run Washington, and the rest of the country for that matter?Read:http://www.sdreader.com/php/cityshow.php?id=20060800
It’s neither left nor right to point out that taking money from one and giving it to another does nothing to increase the amount of money that can be spent.
It’s correct. Now, it may not fit into your notion of what is fair or not, but that doesn’t matter, does it?
If you really want to increase the wealth of low-wage workers, if that is really your goal, you’ll need to find some other way than increasing the minimum wage.
“taking money from one and giving it to another”.
Yikes, isnt that what you repukes call COMMERCE? like it isnt a GOOD thing?
“If you really want to increase the wealth of low-wage workers, if that is really your goal, you’ll need to find some other way than increasing the minimum wage”
What is YOUR goal? Is it NOT increasing the wealth of low wage workers? Would you mind telling us what YOU want to do?
And HOW you propose to do it?
And…btw, you still havent PROVED that raising the miminum wage would NOT increase the wealth of workers.
It is logic, 101 nathan.
Girl, I don’t know what a “repuke” is, or if I am one, but commerce is a voluntary exchange between people. When government mandates minimum prices, that takes away some of the voluntary nature of the transaction.
Again, if a worker can’t produce output that the market values more than what the employer is mandated to pay, does the employer have an obligation to retain that worker, or even to stay in business?
Can you prove, girl, that this doesn’t happen? Becuse if it doesn’t happen, why don’t we raise the minimum wage to some really high number instead of just a little more than what is at the moment?
The answer is that there is a point where workers will not be hired or retained because they cost too much.
Workers of all types, in order to increase wealth, need to increase their productivity. They can do that through education and training, paid for by themselves or someone else. Employers can also make capital investments to increase productivity.
Girl, it is true that for those workers who earn only the minimum wage and who still have their jobs after an increase in the minimum wage, they will earn more money.
Whether they have more wealth after prices increase is another matter. After all, won’t greedy business owners immediately pass on their increased costs by raising prices?
Say, if business owners can increase prices anytime they want, why don’t they do so now?
SD?”voluntary nature of the transaction”?
translation?:”I’ll pay ya what I wanna pay ya. Aint nobody gonna pay you any more either! Take it or leave it!”
“Workers need to increase their productivity”
translation:
“Dave? I’ve let Alice and John go. You’ll be taking over their duties. Chop Chop or I’ll fire you!”
SD? If employers don’t wanna pay up then let THEM do the work!
You are a cretin SD. Do NOT pretend at caring about working people. Your concern for them extends to how far down you can force them. Something you seem to take a sort of sick thrill in.
JR, would you please explain how advocating increaed education and training, and increased capital investment translates into hatred for workers?
Whis is preferable: actually increasing the condition of workers, or passing laws that hurt them?
I think you are so intent on insulting people that you fail to see how harmful your ideas are to the people you claim to want to help.
“Can you prove, girl, that this doesn’t happen?”
I didnt make any assertions. You did. Prove yours. Asking me to prove “mine” isnt proving yours.
I see you must have taken the george bush correspondence course in logic.
You still havent answered any of my questions.
“Workers of all types, in order to increase wealth, need to increase their productivity. They can do that through education and training, paid for by themselves or someone else. Employers can also make capital investments to increase productivity.”
Duh. No disagreement here. Anyone with one semester of economics knows that’s true.
Still doesnt prove anything. How’s about answering my questions?
Oh, and btw… attacking JR does not enhance your points. It only gives us a better view of who you are.
I told you how, girl! You just didn’t read.
And I’m so glad you agree with me! I’m sorry I attacked JR. I guess when he called me a cretin that was just informed insight, was it?