Josh Marshall of the blog Talking Points Memo Memo agrees that Democrats have not been able to effectively counter the “cut and run” refrain of the GOP — a point Rhonda made in an earlier post. Here’s his advice to Senate Democrats:
“The president wants to stay in Iraq for at least three more years. It’s not that he won’t set a date to withdraw. He doesn’t even have a plan that gets to the point where the U.S. could end the occupation. In practice he wants to stay in Iraq forever. What Republicans are voting for is More of the Same, More of the Same failed policy.
“Democrats need to hammer this point again and again and not get tripped up in the president’s bully-boy rhetoric. The president has no plan. He wants to stay in Iraq forever. He says for at least three more years. All the Republicans agree they want more of the same.”
Posted by Melissa Cooley
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94 Comments
Demorrats need to get a backbone and stop talking like the Republicans. We have enough idiots in office.
The negative national sentiment on Iraq has been skyrocketing for over a year now. The recent debate over “lie and die” versus “cut and run” quintessentially highlighted the differences between the parties. And now we are hearing that things really can get worse in Iraq with reprisal-killings on both sides of the conflict allegedly occuring. It is just a myth that the Democratic Party needs backbone on the war. They have been opposing the Bush Admin. nation-building policies that have no exit strategy for quite some time. The only thing the Democrats need is a few more backbones in Congress with D beside their name so that they can become a majority influence – then we’ll see some changes for sure. It is the national Republican party that fails to show the courage to admit being wrong and to be publicly accountable for your mistakes, and the bravery to break ranks and move this country in a different direction that will bring our magnificent but battle-weary troops home.
If the Democrats will invest enough in the marketing necessary to emphasize and embellish the context for “More of the same,” then yeah I suspect it will work.
By emphasize I mean to connect “more of the same” to specific mistakes by the administration, e.g., Katrina, WMD, Medicare costs, Medicare implementation, Gitmo, Abu Graib, etc. By embellishment I mean an appeal to blacks over the injustice suffered during Katrina; the clusterf*ck of WMD, which probably can never be overstated; Bush’s servitude to Big Pharma implied by Medicare costs; Bush’s incompetence implied by Medicare implementation; and the loss of our traditional allies due to Bush’s failure to adhere to the Geneva conventions and pursuit of war for the sole purpose of vengeance. Etc.
The context should be strategically aligned, which is to say “more of the same” should revolve around no more than a handful of themes: Bush’s incompetence, the GOP’s traditional bigotry against blacks (there’s a fissure that can be exploited in conjunction with immigration: Southern Republicans vs. Western and Upper-Midwestern Republicans), the selling of federal access to the highest bidder (corruption) might do. All of the mistakes and embellishments listed above are aligned with these themes; marketing efforts outside these themes are counter-productive.
Campaigning won’t begin in earnest until late August/early September, so the Democrats would have to invest very heavily as well as smartly to guarantee effective penetration.
The key will be to present the message in such a fashion that its overall punch isn’t outweighed by the god, gays, flag, abortion, traitors theme that Karl Rove has already begun.
Could happen, I guess, but note that Karl has a headstart.
$0.0225
flike
How about instead of “bashing Bush” and playing the race card the Democrats present a positive message with their plan for America?…. oh, that’s right, they don’t have one.
Not a bad idea, Heckler, but imo it won’t work.
The question is – given that the election is about 17 weeks away yet the Democrats haven’t begun *any* positive message – can a manufactured positive message withstand Karl’s god, gays, flag, abortion, traitors theme?
Fear will always triumph over hope, just as on short notice a well-funded god, gays, flag, abortion, traitors theme (fear) will likely smash the hope implicit in any Democrat positive message.
I notice that the Democrats in Washington are having the same problem I see in the public at large. Why try? Yes we can complain, but we are outnumbered and no one is listening . It does not good to try so why should we? If the Democrats in the Congress did try anything meaningful, they are outnumbered by the Republicans and it might be shot down. So they express themselves through non binding resolutions and the like.
In a book I have been reading lately, it said that there is a mirror image of ten years ago in that many things going on in Washington are not popular in the public but are highly popular in Washington. Where the reverse was true ten years ago. Anyone else watched 20/20 last night? the entire hour was dedicated to the title of “State of the union” . The subject was about how polarized this country has become, people are actually moving to cities and states that reflect they own personal views rather then stay where they were and fight for how they believe.
There were the comments that years ago the Democrats and Republican would after a hard day in the Senate. Would go out and have a drink together, eat together and hash out the issues in a less combative setting. But now it has become so Partisan and combative that they rarely speak. The parties are the main focus instead of the country.
Yes the Democrats need to have a real plan, the Republicans are the ones who need to “grow a backbone”.
Great posts flike, writerdog.
I seem to recall presidential candidate GWB repeatedly saying in the 2000 campaign,
“I’m a uniter, not a divider.”
What happened?
His lips were moving. Does that tell you anything? Like everytime his lips move, he LIES?
For many years, the Republican party has been known to attack the person, not the issue. Evidence of this was clear in the 2004 Presidential campaign. Most people love to hear dirt on others. Apparently, for some, it’s elevating. It’s proof for them that they’re better than Joe down the street. Who doesn’t love gossip?
While it’s good to know what kind of person is vying for your vote, at this point in time, it’s our Nation that needs our attention. Unfortunately, once again, that isn’t the way things will go unless something changes. I doubt that change will take place in the Republican strategy.
Flike, you hit the target on bullseye. It’s time for the Democrats to put the Mr. Nice Guy gloves away and go for the jugular. Instead of allowing the Republicans to pull the Democrats off target, the Dems need to pick a path and go. This constant being on the defensive as we had in 2004 election does not win the hearts and minds, simply because of what flike pointed out…the fear card. Fear trumps all.
So a “more of the same” campaign is the best bet, IMHO. Find the points and stick with them, no matter what. When met with those personal attacks, point out, repeatedly, that the condition of the country and the people in it is the topic. No reason to use personal dirt. The GOP has covered itself in enough political dirt to bury themselves, if the right shovels are used by the right people.
“More of the same ol’ Lie and Die from BushdaBum”
Ben, you know, if the Dems (party, that is) would listen to the people, they’d know exactly what to do. But they ARE politicians, so we know THAT won’t happen. :(
Republican screw the country up, and then demand that Democrats have answers to put things right! They then deride them for “cut and run” suggestions, and later it’s revealed they are taking up the idea of cutting troops. See them for what they are, pure politicians that will do anything to hold power.
If any of you actualy had a clue as to what was happening in Iraq.
I had my Hostile Country brief the other day and let me tell you that what is going on over there is hardly as simple as many of you here try to portray it as being.
President Bush and the Republicans don’t want more death or destruction, they want to provide support to a developing country.
It is not going to be easy, it is not a simple thing. However, it is much better than simply leaving or demanding we leave with artificial timelines based on nothing more than your desire to leave and not the best interest of stability.
All of the silly semantics of “lie and die,” “Stay the course” or “Cut and Run” don’t mean anything. We have a job to do there and that is what is happening.
Nathan,
Nothing against you personally, nor am I dissing the military, but isn’t it their job to put a positive spin on everything?
Let’s face it. The Iraqi’s NEED a definite date. Time after time we’ve been told that if we’d just wait, we’d get what we want. IOW, troop withdrawal. I know you don’t need a list of those times, so I won’t bother. However, you’ll probably ask, and I’ll answer. Remmember, even Gen. Casey is advocating a timetable for withdrawal.
The current administration has told us many positive things that we, the voters and citizens of this country have later learned were not the case.
At one time I was in favor of what would be a true cut and run. Get out, get out NOW. But after watching more and listening, I see that would be the wrong thing. At the other end of that spectrum is to not set any kind of date or timetable, and that just isn’t going to cut it with the majority anymore. And the majority will be cutting and running…to vote for someone who will get us out, one way or another.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
Or if you’d prefer…”There’s an old saying in Tennessee — I know it’s in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can’t get fooled again.”
I am not for cutting the troops and staying the course at the same time. We do have a job to do there. We ripped Iraq a part and now we have to fix it. But cutting the troop is part of the problem. We actually do not have enough to be effective. It is like sending only one fire truck at a time to a major fire. Yes they can put some of the flames out, but the building is still going to burn.Nor is keeping the present troop levels while waiting for the Iraqis to come up to speed. That only serves to continue to erode both our countries. Overwhelm force is the only answer, that is if we wish to some day leave.
BTW, I had just read the definition of High crimes and misdemeanors as was implied by the framers of the Constitution. It is a fancy term that was carried over from England, it refers to a crime that can only be performed by one in a public office. It does not mean that it has to be a criminal action, it is a violation of the trust put upon some one. By the people that elected the person, misdirection of funds, lying or failing to be truthful.
And no Nathan it is not meant as a bash, I had thought that there had to be something criminal in order for it to be High crimes and misdemeanors. It occurred to me others may not have known it means that the offense could only be done by someone in public office. An abuse of power and or trust that has been bestowed on them, not necessarily a violation of a criminal statues. Some times a banana is nothing more then a banana.
writerdog, thanks for sharing. I’m one who wasn’t aware of what it meant.
Nathan – those catch phrases are no worse than your “America-hater” for anyone who disagrees with you.
A point about your “Hostile Country” brief – I thought they are supposed to be our friends and we are supposed to be protecting them. With a quarter-million ARI troops I ask again – when do they take over?
Here’s an interesting demographic that may prove to be a Democrat windfall come November:
—————————————
June 27, 2006Revenge of the Wal-Mart VotersBy Ryan Sager
Live by Wal-Mart. Die by Wal-Mart. That could be the fate of the Republican Party this November if millions of government-loving voters suddenly abandon the GOP and return to their natural home in the Democratic Party.
…What’s Wal-Mart got to do with anything? Not a whole lot, except as a symbol of a particular type of voter: largely Southern, rural, lower-middle-class, female, socially conservative — not big fans of tax cuts, but *huge* fans of government programs.
…Zogby finds that while 85 percent of frequent Wal-Mart shoppers voted for President Bush’s reelection in 2004 (and 88 percent of people who never shop there voted for Sen. John Kerry), Wal-Mart voters have turned on the president dramatically. In a poll taken earlier this month, they gave Bush a 35 percent approval rating — compared to a 45 percent positive rating from born-again Christians, 49 percent from NASCAR fans, and 54 percent from self-identified conservatives.
Most worrying for the GOP: Fifty-one percent of Wal-Mart voters agreed with the statement that it’s “time for the Democrats to take over and run” Congress — as opposed to just 31 percent who think “Republicans deserve to retain control.”
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/06/revenge_of_the_walmart_voters.html
Ben!
It has been awhile since I have seen you around here.
The term “Hostile Country” is just that, a term.
As far as calling people America haters, it is not everyone I disagree with, just you. If you were not always exploiting every thing this country and our military did wrong in an attempt to compare us to the enemy and make us look just as bad I might not call you one.
The security forces in Iraq have been taking on a larger and increased role in the security of the country. I know you favor our leaving them out to dry by just leaving so the country can be thrown into more chaos, but fortunately we have more competent leadership than you in charge making sure that we don’t just leave and let the forces in place hang out to dry.
Extra holidays it sure was good th see John Kerry Flip Floping on the Bill Oreilly show. Sure reminded me of a fish out of water.
A friend of mine informed me that her son was recently killed in Iraq. To make matters worse, he and two other American soldiers were gunned down by the Iraqis they were training.
I will be praying for your safe return, Nathan. Please don’t di for israel or haliburton, it ain’t worth it!
V.L.R.B!!
“…Flip Floping on the Bill Oreilly show. Sure reminded me of a fish out of water.”Posted by: Right angle | July 01, 2006 at 06:09 PM
In the words of the immortal and possibly also fish-out-of-water in Kansas, ksfarmgrrl,
heheheheheheheheheh.
That’s EXACTLY what President Bush’s most recent “On Bended Knees In Europe Tour 2006″ reminded me of.
Ain’t karma a bitch?
;)
“more competent leadership than you in charge”
Yea right Nathan! HAHAHA!!!!
I have come to the conclusion that you simply hate the truth nathan. That is the only explanation for you and the rest of the BushBots..
Nathan, don’t argue with Ben Huie. It is like wresting with a pig in the pig pin. The pig is too dumb to know when he is beat and you just get his mud on you.
And another goose-stepping BushBot pipes in. Good to hear from ya Ra, whoever you really are!
Ben,
If I hate the truth, what do you call my research on what the Red Cross really did and not what you spammed the blog with for a week?
It must be hard for you to actually have to try and have a discussion with someone who simply doesn’t take everything you say as Gospel…
O’REILLY: OK. So you see the danger from Iran. You know it’s intruding in the Iraq war.Then the logical question is, if you want a timetable for withdrawal, and other people have called for it as well as you, and we do pull out too early, and Iran comes in, making Iraq a sphere of influence place, setting up a mini-satellite state, aren’t we in more danger?KERRY: I have never suggested pulling out too early.O’REILLY: No, you want a timetableFLIP FLOP, FLIP FLOP
President Bush: we don’t need no stinkin’ Germans. (2002)
President Bush: please, Germany, save our ass, please! (2006)
FLIP FLOP, FLIP FLOP
President Bush: please France, I’m so sorry about the Freedom Fries thing, help save our ass!! Pleeeeeeze!!!
FLIP FLOP, FLIP FLOP
Flike,
Do you have actual quotes or is it just easier to make up things to support your view?
Sorry, the actual quote is:
President Bush: Europe, please contribute and save our ass!!!
FLIP FLOP, FLIP FLOP
Nathan,
Are you saying George W. Bush never flip flops?
President should have requested World War II damages from Germany and demand that France pay their World War II loans.
Nathan – i acknowledged my mistake about the Red Cross. When will you acknowledge yours about WMDs, no ethnic divisions, months not years in Iraq, continuing resistence to the occupation, etc etc etc.
The REAL America-haters are those who blindly follow BushdaBum and his lies even though they know that is damaging America. The REAL patriots are those of us who are trying to change the course rather than blindly following it off a cliff.
I think we could probably use a bit of help on how to play soccer from the Europeans, but when it comes to fighting wars I think we have it covered.
Ben,
Once again you shift the subject. I was merely pointing out that I do indeed care about the truth contrary to your claim.
If you would like to discuss something in particular instead of simply throwing a bunch of one liners my way I’m game.
Sorry America- and truth-hating Nathan – your labeling has rendered that unlikely.
So, with a quarter-million ARI when do they take over? Try answering that one Nathan.
Ben,
It is easy to look at things as a mere number.
There are many more things like experience, training, support, intelligence, infrastructure, etc…etc…
You ask me a question of when do they take over. I ask you where are they now? Sitting in the sand doing nothing?
Those are more rhetorical than actual questions.
The problem Nathan is that the fractious nature of Iraq is being built into the new Iraqi law enforcement, government, and military. It can’t be helped. If a Sunni or Shiite signs up, gets trained and equipped with weapons and authority, they are going to revert to their core beliefs and hatreds just as soon as we are not there to mitigate that. So we will never be able to “leave”. Even if we didtry to “leave” the factions now part of all Iraqui police and army would disolve back into fighting.
There are 25 million people in Iraq Nathan. They have to decide to make a change. All we are doing is potponing the inevitable civil war. We are even fueling it by putting it off.
JR,
You actually cite the very evidence which disproves you.
The 25 million you refer to.
If the country was indeed in a civil war or headed to it inevitably there would be more people involved.
Right now it is little more than a desperate insurgency fueled by outside forces and the few fanatics.
If most of the people truely were as full of hate as you portray they wouldn’t be supporting the new government or just trying to go about their lives.
Having members of the Kurds, Sunni, and Shia in the governemtn is crucial to bringing them together.
It is funny that all those here on the left who proudly proclaim they are the ones who support civil rights, equality and all that jazz, are the same ones who seem bent on supporting the division in Iraq instead of unification.
No one said it was going to be easy, just like civil rights in our country wasn’t a smooth road either.
It takes time to erase the hate.
Nathan the unification in Iraqi government et all you cite is not genuine. It is forced by US presence there.It can only be maintained by long term US presence there. Which I at least feel was the very agenda of bush and company in the first place. We can of course disagree.You are talking about people who have been killing each other over a take on religion and territory for more than a 1000 years. Your not quite acknowledged comparison to US history is thus not relevant. A change in Iraq will not take two or three decades of disparate folk disagreeably forced to agree as happened in America. Such base differences as in Iraq will take generations to mitigate.
Like I said, the ultimate ongoing war that requires continuous US involvement.
“If the country was indeed in a civil war or headed to it inevitably there would be more people involved.”
Who knows best about whether or not there is currently civil war? You, Nathan, or the Iraqi government? Because just a few weeks ago it was a member of the Iraqi government who stated that Iraq was involved in a civil war. The only one who seems to be saying there isn’t is Bush.
“…are the same ones who seem bent on supporting the division in Iraq instead of unification.”
Now it’s you throwing out unfounded accusations, Nathan. Show me one time that anyone on either side of this argument has said anything in support of a division in Iraq. Pointing out that there is a division is no indication of support. It’s stating a fact. And that fact is plain to see.
RD,
In the wonderful world of facts and research, citing one member of the entire Iraqi government and then making a blatantly false statement about Bush being the only one to think something is not proof of anything.
RD – clearly Nathan knows more about what is going on in Iraq than Iraqi government ministers do. After all, they are only Iraqis – and aren’t even of the correct version of Abrahamism!
Like I said Ben, whenever you are ready to have a real discussion let me know.
Why Nathan – just so you can use your bullshit claim that I hate America again?
But I guess it’s all right for you, Nathan, to cite Bush on anything you choose. After all, he’s only one member of the entire U.S. Government. Why am I not surprised?
RD,
Is it possible for you to stay on anyone argument for more than one post?
I have yet to do anything here other than constantly point out the fallacy with many of the arguments here.
So why you are trying to question my citing of sources I don’t know. I think you need to worry more about yours than mine.
Ben,
Did you ever explain why you kept posting over and over again in thread after thread about America blowing up a civilian airliner?
The way that you kept constantly trying to cite the few mistakes America has made and even the ones we are merely accused of making over and over again, I started to wonder if you did Hate America.
You may not hate America, but I get a feeling that you were the type of guy after 9-11 that sat around talking about how America finally got what it deserved…
Nathan – I simply posted that as an example of civilian deaths that has never been INDEPENDANTLY investigated. The US QUITE CORRECTLY demands an INDEPENDENT investigation into the assasination of Hariri in Lebanon rather than blindly accepting the “official” government investigation. Why do we refuse to allow for such an investigation in this (and other) case?
As for you “You may not hate America, but I get a feeling that you were the type of guy after 9-11 that sat around talking about how America finally got what it deserved…” is your typical BULLSHIT. “You may not hate Palestinians but I get a feeling you are the type of guy after that family got blown up on a beach in Gaza sat around talking about how those towel-heads all deserve to die” And I also get a feeling that you are the type of guy after that woman got raped and murdered in Iraq sat around and said she and her family deserved to die. It is that type of attitude that I get a feeling that you have that causes such things as that gang-rape and murder.
Ben,
Here is the thing Ben, it is that nyou seem to put America on the same level as lebanon.
You don’t hate America, but yet you think that our investigation is just as suspect as a state like lebanons?
Sure thing Ben… Sure thing.
I don’t know what you think About America, but I have much more trust in what took place in our government in what happened during the battle between our warships and Iran than lebanon…
So tell me then Ben, in those posts were you calling for an independent investigation or simply bashing America for being bad?
I could be wrong, but the numerous times you brought that up, I think it was more to show how bad we were than to call for an independent investigation.
Seriously Ben,
I don’t think you hate America, I just don’t understand your constant attempts at trying to portray as as wrong or bad or suspect.
Nathan – it is a call to come clean and allow a full investigation. What HAS been revealed is that the USS Vincennes had invaded Iranian territory and was so close to the airport that they use that as their excuse for confusing a lumbering sub-sonic jumbo jet for a diving supersonic fighter. I suppose you think that is a GOOD thing. After all, we surely cannot allow Iran to think that they have any rights as a sovereign state, can we?
In a free representative democracy it is absolutely VITAL that citizens ask questions and constantly demand accountability of their government. NOT doing so is a complete failure of citizens and an invitation to all sorts of ills.
I’d rather have a meaningful discussion with a flag burner than a “flag waver” any day.
“My country right or wrong my country” is NOT patriotism. It is dogmatic refusal to think or listen to anything you would rather not hear.
John McCain put it well in the prisoner abuse scandal – America MUST hold the high ground. If we don’t then we give the bad guys excuses to abuse our people when they are captured.
Ben I have seen you post to this issue before. I keep meaning to look into it better.
Fact is, I had kinda forgotten about it. I DO remember seeing the floating bodies of the dead from that airliner and feeling not just sick but angry and also ashamed.
I actually agree with your statement JR.
“In a free representative democracy it is absolutely VITAL that citizens ask questions and constantly demand accountability of their government. NOT doing so is a complete failure of citizens and an invitation to all sorts of ills.”
Let me look outside to see if Hell froze over.
Nothing wrong with agreeing with plain good sense Joe. Happy to have you aboard on that this occasion.
It is not liberal or “unamerican” to demand accountability of government. Actually, my conservative rememberings are that doing so is patriotic……..and “conservative”.
Now I will pose a question for Nathan. I was recently in Montreal, Quebec, Canada. Let us suppose that I am a suspect in a crime there. Who should investigate? Officials of BTH Consulting? Or perhaps, since it took place in the sovereign nation of Canada Canadian officials should? I know the answer; the US would extradite me to Canada to face their justice system.
Nathan, why do you FEAR an independent investigation so much? What are you afraid they will find?
Another reason for INDEPENDENT investigations: Let us suppose again that I am accused of wrong-doing. An investigation carried out by my organization clears me. Is that a credible investigation? No matter how good the investigation was it will be suspect due to conflict of interest. Since I am innocent it is in MY interest that there be a complete investigation.
Ben,
The problem with you analogy is that one takes place by an individual in a country while the other is a military action.
Once again, you leave out that our ship was engaged in a battle with Iranian gun boats which opened fire on our forces and that is why our ship was in their territory.
I am not saying it was not a bad thing that it happened, but it was an accident.
I know that you want to have something to bash America with, so please don’t let the truth stop you.
Your calls for an independent investigation are childish rants bent on nothing more than trying to discredit America and make us look bad.
What facts are in dispute Ben?
We already admit to shooting the plane down, are you saying that we did it on purpose to blatantly kill innocent civilians?
What is it that is not clear about what happened?
Ben,
When have our prisoners of war ever been treated according to the geneva convention?
Of course, I imagine you think that the treatment of prisoners by Bush is why Al Qeada is treating our prisoners so bad…
Nathan – you let your irrational hatred of all Muslims blind you to the fact that a lot of innocent civilians were killed under questionable circumstances. If a foreign gunboat sat off the coast of New York and blew up an American airliner you would call for war. Even if they did say it was an accident.
What is not clear is just how they managed to mistake a climbing sub-sonic jumbo jet for a diving supersonic fighter jet. What is not clear is the entire episode of our support for Saddam in his invasion of Iran.
What IS clear is why Iran feels a need to have a way to defend itself against aggression; something we want to deny them.
Your opposition to an independent investigation are childish rants bent on nothing more than your fear of what it might find. Just what is it you are so afraid of?
Nathan – generally our POWs are NOT treated in accord with geneva. I suppose in your eyes that relieves us of any responsibility to abide by Geneva. I agree with former POW McCain on this issue.
By the way – a somewhat practical question: Suppose you are behind enemy lines and have a prisoner. You cannot transport him out and you cannot hold him as you extricate yourself. What do you do with him?
Lets suppose that the airliner was an accident – that sounds a lot like negligence. If I accidently cause death I will probably face manslaughter charges.
Oh yes, I forgot – context. Iranian civilians minding their own business don’t count in your world. Thay have zero rights as a peopla or as a country.
Nathan,
I have no idea what you meant by this:”and then making a blatantly false statement about Bush being the only one to think something is not proof of anything.”
But I’m beginning to figure it out, although the way you twist things to make it appear that you have the advantage is really infantile.
My statement was as much proof as yours was. I never said Bush was the only one to say it. I never said the Iraqi in their government was the only one to say it.
Spin it all you want, Nathan.
By the way, Nathan, my sources aren’t limited to Fox News, Limbaugh or O’Reilly.
If you make a statement and I reply in disagreement, just what about that is changing the topic? If that’s the case, you’re as guilty as anyone else.
That’s the problem RD – you aren’t getting your talking points from the Ministry of Truth.
What are your sources of news RD? Democrat Underground, Daily Kos, and Randi Rhodes?
RD,
I think that your statement:
“The only one who seems to be saying there isn’t is Bush.”
is blatantly false.
No confusion on my end.
Ben,
I see that the truth is finally coming out. You seem to be more upset with America’s involvement in the Iran-Iraq war and that is why you sieze on the accidental shooting of the civilian airliner.
I see a consistent problem with people on the left in understanding things like war and military actions.
They are not civilian operations or bound by civilian law in military operations.
Bad things happen in war Ben. Even if it was more than an accident what would happen? The radar operator and Captain of the ship would be in a jail cell somewhere?
Is that what you want Ben, is that what would make you a happier person seeing the captain of the ship in prison for that?
What is it you want? You keep calling for an investigation. Why? What facts are in dispute? You have yet to answer that question.
Didn’t Rumsfield tell us that our troops would come home in months not years? And that the insurgency over a year ago was in its last throes?
Ben,
If a US patrol is ambushed by insurgents and they fire back accidently killing a civilian in the line of fire are they guilty of manslaughter and should they be tried in a court of international law for it?
Ben,
I don’t know, please provide the source for the quote instead of speculation.
Nathan – I have said what I want. A credible investigation.
Yes, I did not like out alliance with Saddam – I believe it soiled my country. I did not like giving Saddam the green light to go into Kuwait either. I believe that also damaged my country.
I spent much of last week with a Marine veteran of WW2 and Korea. He is disgusted with what is happening with our country. And don’t tell me that that veteran (or veteran Murtha for that matter) lacks “understanding things like war and military actions.” I’ll take them over you any day.
If the facts are as presented then not guilty. Now how about you answering my question.
I assume you are reffering to “months not years” by Rumsfield – that was several years ago on the ‘talking head’ Sunday shows. Several times.
Ben,
I was at dinner with about 20 veterans the other day who support Bush, our military actions in Iraq, and understand just fine what is going on.
There are millions of veterans in the country Ben, I am sure there are people on both sides of the issue.
Why was the investigation conducted by our military not credabile Ben?
It is called conflict of interest. A ’self-investigation’ by definition has credibility problems.
Nathan – why do you fear an independent investigation?
Ben,
The investigation was not a “self-investigation” at all.
The military had an independent body conduct it.
If we followed your line of reasoning everything that happened in the military should be investigated by a foriegn country.
How would our military ever operate?
An investigation was done. If you have a problem with the facts or what was said the burden of proof is on you to state them and stop with the speculation and calls for another investigation.
I have yet to see you present anything to show how the investigation conducted by our military was bad, wrong, or biased.
The necessary documents have not been declassified; thus rendering that which you require impossible.
I hope it was perfect; if so then the independent investigation that so terrifies you would confirm that.
I have yet to see any evidence presented to show that it was unbiased. It was carried out by professional colleagues of those directly involved.
At least we have finally narrowed this down to you having no proof of anything other than this being a tragic accident which everyone agrees on.
Well, Nathan, I used the word “seems.” Just a little trick I learned from you. It gives me a back door. Kinda like that “backdoor draft.”
Joe, I get my sources from all over. I couldn’t even begin to name them all, but here’s a stab at it.
Some are foreign, some NPR, although I haven’t been listening much lately. I rarely watch TV. Only an occasional C-Span, very little CNN, although I do slide through their website, now and then.
I can Google with the best of them, if there’s something specific I’m searching for. Friends give me links to stats. I “watched” Katrina from the Picayune Times website (NOLA.com) and spoke with a couple of people who endured New Orleans. I have a .wav file of an online radio program’s interview with one of them, if you’d like to hear it. I read the top news stories each day and often find links to more obscure stories, some liberal, some conservative.
I don’t watch Fox, ABC, NBC, or any other MSM news. I’d rather know more in depth what happened, what was said, etc., and I find most MSM TV news nothing more than soundbytes.
Does that satisfy your curiosity any?
No Nathn – we do not know that because the information has never been fully released. That is why it is kept classified – to keep us in the dark. And now I begin to understand why you are so fearful of an independent investigation.
Ben,
I see you still have offered no evidence yet. The absence of evidence or lack of declassification of things doesn’t prove anything.
And I have never claimed anything either. Only that an airing is needed.
Ben,
You have claimed something. You claim that the investigation that took place was wrong.
If you are not claiming anything, then we go with the status quo, which is that it was a tragic accident as the investigation showed.
nathan – I am claiming that a self-investigation with its inherent conflict of interest leaves doubts. THAT is why I advocate an independent investigation. What are you so afraid of?
Ben,
I am glad that you agree with the findings of our investigation, that is was an accident which happened during the confusion in the battle between our ship and Iranian forces.
Quit lying Nathan – I never said I agreed with their findings. In particular, I have never seen evidence of sufficient extenuating circumstances justifying their actions to shield them from any responsibility for their actions.
Why do you fear having your investigation verified independently?
Ben,
I am not sure what you are trying to say. You say you are making no claims and then here you are making claims.
What actions should they be held accountable for? An accident?
What Ben claims it that it’s questionable whether the investigation was thorough. I think that’s pretty easy to understand and to agree with, considering how it was handled and by whom.
But I’m not into arguing about it. Nathan, please enjoy your Independence Day to the max and take very good care of yourself. I’m sure we’ll see you here on the blog after you’re in country. (Is that the right term?)
Blessings to you, Nathan. May God (yours and all others) keep watch over you and all our troops.