Letting their upset over Iraq and support for Israel get the better of their judgment, some Democratic congressmen pressured House Speaker Dennis Hastert, R-Ill., to cancel Wednesday’s address to Congress by Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki (in photo), arguing in a letter that because of “mounting evidence that the Iraqi leadership’s goals are not in the best interests of the United States — nor the Middle East — Prime Minister Maliki’s address is inappropriate.” There also has been talk of a boycott of the speech. True, Maliki has condemned Israel’s attacks on Lebanon, a position at odds with U.S. policy. But surely Congress can set aside that disagreement long enough to welcome the duly elected prime minister of the new Iraq.
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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221 Comments
Original Question: Can’t Democrats in Congress handle a contrary view?
Answer: No!
The bigger question is where is this Pro-Israel mentality coming from, and why. Israel has an undue influence in our government. Congress needs to put American interest first.
How is our relationship with Israel any different than our relationship with South Korea or Taiwan? I bet if we had troops on the ground in Israel like we do in Korea, some of you people’s heads would explode.
Israel is a rogue terrorist State, and if you don’t believe that, just go look at Lebanon.
Bush has left them unrestrained, so now they’re showing their true colors.
They’re barbarians, and that’s why nobody likes them.
It never had anything to do with their religion.
Keep repeating the lie, Ed. Maybe someday, someone besides skinheads will buy it.
Considering the conditions in his country, I should think the Prime Minister of Iraq would have better things to do than fly to the other side of the planet to make a speech.
Smell the coffee, that’s what the world is saying. Read about it.
As shown by the hue of the repsonses so far Liberals can’t handle and type of differing view.
Maliki is going to address Congress today. So much for the thesis of this thread…
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,205521,00.html
Before you go on another round of Ed bashing, please consider how much of what he predicted is coming true. Consider that he has been right more often than not. Dismiss him without regard at your own risk. He may not be 100% accurate, but he is also not a raving lunatic. Much of what he has said now seems quite sane compared to the lies from bushco.
Democrats? “House Speaker Dennis Hastert, R-Ill” Note the R!
As for israel, they have been deliberately targeting hospitals, schools, ambulances, fleeing refugees, and now UN observers. These are war crimes; crimes against humanity. And Bushco whole-heartedly supports the extermination of hundreds of Lebanese children.
“Democrats? “House Speaker Dennis Hastert, R-Ill” Note the R!”
some Democratic congressmen pressured House Speaker Dennis Hastert, R-Ill., to cancel Wednesday’s address to Congress
You should probably work on your reading comprehension. Your other unfounded comments don’t merit rebuttal. I don’t expect you to note that Hezbollah routinely targets civilians.
Ben is right.
According to Israeli accounts; Hizbollah has killed more Israeli military than Israeli civilians. On the other hand; Israel has killed a hundred children with its bombing for every Hizbollah they have killed. And the bombing of the UN post is undeniable.
Every observer on the ground in Lebanon who has seen the devastation of civilian areas has said what I said above.
Israeli terrorism started in 1948 at Deir Yassin, and it’s been downhill all the way.http://www.deiryassin.org/index1.html
http://www.deiryassin.org/
Yep Ben, you are correct. And Ed has been correct as well.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102×2412976
Of course, the righties would rather get their news from man coulter than DU, but for the open minded, read the comments. Very telling.
Israel has screwed the pooch in terms of international support. Some say they have “jumped the shark”.
And links inside the comments lead to stories that say this war is really about Israel wanting their water. Very interesting.
“some Democratic congressmen pressured House Speaker Dennis Hastert, R-Ill.”
Oh, poor denny hastert, the MAJORITY leader under “pressure” from the minority?
heheh. When the phuck has he EVER cared about pressure from the democrats?
Maybe he needs some of that viagra…. He cant “stand up” to his own party, the preznit, or now the democrats?
heheheheheh I think he must need a little stand up help.
It’s not the Dems’ supposed inability to handle a contrary view. That’s just silly.
It’s AIPAC. I’m no fan of Hezbollah (I have to say that because otherwise the binary-brained “with us or against us” types will conclude I’m a charter member). But AIPAC continues to exert a ridiculous influence on our government, and hence even constructive criticism of Israel is not permitted (sorry, no link, but the study is easy to find).
I’ve not held back in giving Ed crap when I saw fit, but he’s been dead on about that, and a number of other things.
‘Umm, what study, dude?’
The Harvard study by 2 respected academics. Which I thought about typing, but apparently didn’t.
More coffee. . .must have more cofee. . .
Thanks rage – having been labeled anti-Semitic many times for being critical of Israel I know what you are talking about.
Maybe Israel has “jumped the couch”, but then again, anybody who launches rocket attacks on Israel isn’t showing much respect for their own lives.
Having said that, I don’t get the point of buying time for Israel to kill more Hezbollah, before demanding a cease fire. Bush/Rice – the world’s new psycho-killers — Quest que cest Fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa far better Run run run run run run run away Oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh….
In the mind of a democrat …
Given:
Bush/Rice in the Middle East trying to forge a lasting peace.
Hizbullah launching rockets filled with ball bearings into populated ares.
Therefore:
Bush/Rice = psycho killers
Hizbullah = freedom fighters.
Hey, LRB, thanks for making my point for me!
Moron.
Rage,
Killing more civillians in Lebanon = creating a lasting peace
How come, you don’t get that? You must be completely out of coffee at your house.
Darwin’s Disciple must now be growing a prehensil tail …
Since when are Bush and Rics killing civilians in Lebanon?
The problem with trying to negotiate a peace in the middle east is that, at least on the radical fringes of both sides, this isn’t a war, it’s mutual genocide, and it’s the radical fringes that are are in control!
“Bush/Rice in the Middle East trying to forge a lasting peace.”
OMG lrb, ROLLING ON THE FLOOR here laughing until I have tears.
I had no idea you were such a comedian. Forging a lasting peace?
hehehehehehehehehehehehehheeh
…and you say it is a “given”? ]
ROLLING AGAIN! heheheheheheheheheh
you kidder you. Stop, please. Yer killin’ me with laughter…..
I’ll take a prehensile tail over a prehensile brain, any day.
From the washingtonpost.com:”After listening to the news conference, Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora expressed despair. Saying his country was being “cut to pieces” by Israel, Siniora said: “We really wanted, on the one hand, to really ask the participants to provide humanitarian relief assistance, which is important, and to provide all other assistance. . . . But more, we wanted a cease-fire, an immediate cease-fire.”
“U.S. officials briefing after the meeting played down disagreements. But others did not. Finnish Foreign Minister Erkki Tuomioja said that “we agreed upon what we could agree upon, but that does not change the fact that the European Union has called for an immediate cessation of hostilities” while the United States has not.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/26/AR2006072600289.html
I guess our foreign policies really don’t mean anything, right? You know though, I would take a prehensile brain over a complete lack of one…
LRB – given: Isreal using cluster bombs against civilians. Israel using phosphorus munitions against civilians. Israel bombing a UN observation post to eliminate witnesses.
Bush and Rice are giving Israel cover to continue these actions.
DD – if Isreal had been targeting Hizbollah I doubt there would be thin much criticism of them. They have been targeting ambulances, refugees, hospitals, the entire infrastructure of Lebanon. They have even targeted the Lebanese troops they want to ally with them against Hizbollah.
“LRB – given: Isreal using cluster bombs against civilians. Israel using phosphorus munitions against civilians. Israel bombing a UN observation post to eliminate witnesses.”
Prove you assertions.
This should be good….
“LRB – given: Isreal using cluster bombs against civilians. Israel using phosphorus munitions against civilians. Israel bombing a UN observation post to eliminate witnesses.”
Prove you assertions.
This should be good….
Gosh isnt “given” the kind of word that college debaters like nathan love?
heheh. I’m just sayin’……..
“if Isreal had been targeting Hizbollah I doubt there would be thin much criticism of them. They have been targeting ambulances, refugees, hospitals, the entire infrastructure of Lebanon. They have even targeted the Lebanese troops they want to ally with them against Hizbollah.”
Of couse Hizbullah wouldn’t use ambulences, refugees, hospitals, etc. for cover, right?
This whole thing could end in 15 minutes is the Iranian terrorists returned the Israeli hostages.
“This should be good….”
Hmmmm.
And just like nathan, lrb demands proof, already knowing that whatever proof you provide will not be good enough.
Hmmmm.
“this is not a pipe”
deja vu all over again?
Is is different people reading the same talking points or the same person posting as different people?
you decide
“This whole thing could end in 15 minutes is the Iranian terrorists returned the Israeli hostages”
Gosh, that sounds a lot like”
“See the irony is that what they need to do is get Syria to get Hezbollah to stop doing this s— and it’s over,”
Could you neocons possibly AGREE on a solution before you drag us all over the cliff?
I know the idea of reading this terrifies you lrb, but be brave and do it anyway.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102×2412976
It explains the whole “terrorists are hiding inside ambulances clearly marked from the roof as red cross” and the “terrorists are hiding at UN outposts, even after the outpost CALLED the IDF 10 times before they were bombed into the stone age” cultists.
Really. Read something not on freep. You might find it enlightening.
Oh, never mind. I just realized what I said….
lrb – and I suppose you also think the Lebanese were using the UN post?
It could have been PREVENTED had the Israelis released THEIR hostages.
Ben!
I see you are still apouting your lies. I figured you might have grown tired of it by now.
Do you have any proof the Israel is purposefully trying to target civilians?
When the terrorists hide amoungst civilians and launch their rockets with no regard it is kind of hard for Israel to fight them without killing innocent people.
Of course you don’t care about any of that. Out of everyone on this blog Ben, you have to be one of the biggest anti-American terrorist sympathizers I have seen.
Where is your condimnation for what the terrorist are doing?
What is Israel supposed to do when rockets are fired at their country?
Of course you think Israel should be driven into the sea too, so none of that matters to you does it?
If anything, Israel is doing a great job of not killing more people than they have trying to fight those cowardly terrorists.
“Oh, never mind. I just realized what I said….”
The terms “Democraticunderground” and enlightened” are mututally exclusive.
As far as being a neocon I am not a democrat or republican. I view you both as being the same. Same as in bad for America. Why don’t you obsolete lefties and the religious right form a suicide pact? Then we can get our country back.
No lies Nathan – it ahs all been documented and published, including blowing up the UN post and shelling rescue workers.
Speaking of LIES: “Of course you think Israel should be driven into the sea too, so none of that matters to you does it?” – that is a LIE nathan and YOU KNOW IT!
Yes, I also condemn Hizbollahs indiscriminate firing of rockets that they initiated after Beiruet was flattened.
What hostages are those Ben?
Why were they taken prisoner? Why would terrorists be fighting for their release?
hmmmmmmm?
and cowardly? Just how much courage does it take to launch a missle from an F-16 at a hospital?
“mounting evidence that the Iraqi leadership’s goals are not in the best interests of the United States — nor the Middle East — Prime Minister Maliki’s address is inappropriate.”
The DNC is going to hear about this from this democrat.
The Iraqi leadership goals should be in the BEST INTEREST OF IRAQIS.
Dadblastit! It’s called “democracy.” If they don’t like it, they should move to RUSSIA!
It was stated as a question for you to answer…hence the ?
Nothing has been documented Ben. Besides you saying it was on purpose there is no proof of that. They are still calling for investigations.
Hostages – siezed on Lebanese soil by Israel during their invasion/occupation. They should be considered POWs and repatriated after hostilities ended in 2000.
So are you saying fighter pilots are cowards Ben?
This is exactly what’s wrong with the US efforts to “impose” democracy on Iraq.
“You can have CONTROL or you can have DEMOCRACY. You can’t have both.” Sandy Berger, former security advisor to Clinton
So you feel the terrorists are justified in their launching rockets at civilians indescretely in retribution for the hostages?
Yea sure Nathan – first Israel tried to suggest it was a Hizbollah airstrike – then they realized Hisbollah has no aircraft. So they will hide behind the usual BS “OOPS!” even though they had already been warned about their continuous artillary shelling at the outpost. Israel KNEW where the post was.
Certainly the “investigation” by the people behind the bombing will conclued that they are as pure and innoecnt as the driven snow!
LRB–
H.L. Menken was talking about you when he said that “for every complex question, there’s a simple WRONG answer.”
heheh Ben. Why does nathan hate you so much? heheheh
So… ann coulter is a credible source but DU isnt? Besides, I said read the comments and follow the links.
But then, lrb, er, nathan, you cant do that, now can ya?
…and did I call it? NO proof ever exists to suit nathan.
This is not a pipe.
I cant wait for the “Waaaaaaa” crying next.
Never said that Nathan – and they didn’t do that any way. They launched rockets in retaliation for the bombing of Beiruet. (I disagree with that too – on BOTH sides).
And you are saying front-line fighters standing up to tanks are cowards Nathan?
Yes nathan – I find it hard to see much courage in fighter pilots flying into undefended airspace and bombing civilains. A lot less courage than those who try to fight back with little weaponry.
I hope you enjoy seeing a pro-US government in Lebanon fall and be replaced by a hard-line anti-US government.
And Ben, I love how he twists your words, mistates your positions, and flat LIES about what you are saying. Puts words into your mouth that you never said.
Do they teach that in the Marines or did he just learn that in church? Maybe in the John Birch Society?
It seems that all the world leaders are calling for a cease fire. Well, everyone except the U.S.
Any guesses as to why?
Is the U.S. hoping for all-out war in the ME? Does the Administration realize that if that happens, their precious oil is smack in the middle of it? Even worse, our MEN AND WOMEN are in the middle of this.
So if the countries of the ME destroy each other, does that mean the U.S. gets to march in and take over?
Just looking at some what if’s here…
Is Ann Coulter living?
In her pictures, she looks like a corpse, like the dessicated mummified body that gets unrolled out of ancient Egyptian linens.
I think she’s a fictional character, like Lara Croft or Orwell’s Big Brother, a computer generated image.
So let’s get this straight…
According to the lefties here Hisbullah rockets showering down on Israeli cities are justified because cowardly Israeli F-16 pilots are purposly tareting Lebanese daycare centers and petting zoos.
Does that pretty much sum up the argument?
Ben,
It seems like you are the PR guy for the terrorists. You keep defending them, what they are doing, saying they have more courage…
Once again, there is no proof Israel is purposefully killing civilians.
Guess what Ben? Even when troops know where something is, have been told it, and were even instructed not to fire accidents still happen.
Remember the Apache helicopters that fired upon two American vehicles during the first gulf war?
Crap happens.
Of course, in your little world, you want to see every American and Israel soldier on the battlefield who accidently kills someone sent to prison.
You have no comprehension of what the “fog of war” is nor do you seem to have any knowledge of what actually takes place during a war or fighting.
You have the convienence of sitting in you nice AC home watching CNN doing little more than casting blame the first chance you get.
Nathan, LRB – “Yes, I also condemn Hizbollahs indiscriminate firing of rockets” – already stated.
But you two consider bombing hospitals, ambulances, refugees as justified because Hizbollah attacked an Israeli military base.
KFG,
So far I have seen nothing showing Israel is purposefully attacking civilians.
Do you have something to share on that or are you just going to keep typing your same BS over and over again?
I wont hold my breath.
Gosh, lrb using nathan’s tactics of putting stupid words on the page and pretending they belong to ben or the “lefties”? Summing up their positions in an entirely lying manner?
heheheh.
I’m just sayin’…..
“So far I have seen nothing showing Israel is purposefully attacking civilians.”
This is not a pipe…
HOWLING now…..
Ben,
I don’t think it is right nor do I think it is ok for Israel to attack civilian targets. I don’t think they are doing it on purpose either, unless they believe they are attacking terrorists.
“But you two consider bombing hospitals, ambulances, refugees as justified because Hizbollah attacked an Israeli military base.”
No. But bombing hospitals, ambulences, refugees, etc. that are used as cover by Hizbullah terrorists is justified.
Any other questions?
I see you still didn’t post anything KFG.
Then again, this doesnt pertain to white, farming, lesbians who live in rural kansas either.
Why don’t you let those with military experience do the talking?
Nathan, you should just scroll past my posts because they are not meant for you. If you feel I have nothing to share, just go by. Really. I wont be offended.
I, however, will continue to read your posts. I love a good belly laugh and you provide the BEST!!
We are amused, and we do encourage you to try again.
It is hard work being a persecuted majority.
I don’t have to assume or sum up a false position for Ben.
He did a pretty good job of that himself in all the past threads dealing with the Marine Corps, Iran, and everyother time he doesn’t hesitate to blame America first.
heheh. I see how well our “military experience” is serving us over there….
Perhaps that is why we have a CIVILIAN government?
To keep people like you from turning us into a theocratic military dictatorship?
hehehe. Oh… wait….
you already did
KFG,
Persecuted?
Please…
Who is crying now?
You wouldn’t know what the meaning of the word if I showed it to you in a dictionary.
Did I call it? Has the “waaaaaaa kfg is being mean to me” started now? The “waaaaaa” Ben tells the truth and I dont like it” crying?
heheh. Did you learn that crying in the Marines too?
hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheh
The more you post the more I like it nathan.
I could NEVER make my points as well as you do for me.
I for one am sick sick sick of accommodating Israel.
Maybe Nathan or LRB would like to justify why it is that we do that?
Strategic location? nope. Liability!
Resources? Nope, the mideast is full of sand.
Religion? That sad old arguement that God has chosen Israel? Then let God defend Israel.
WHy don’t they just MOVE Israel to a less contentious spot? And don’t tell me “God ” gave them that land. God can help them keep it if that is the case.
Israel brags about their precision weapons – then they always say “oops” when they flatten a hospital. My how convenient.
Hey – maybe Hisbollah is really targeting military bases with their inaccurate rockets instead of Haifa. After all, at least they are doing better than 50% on hitting military.
LRB – so, according to your logic, “But bombing Israeli hospitals, ambulences, refugees, etc. that are used as cover by Israeli military is justified.” i.e. Haifa
Hezbollah captured the Israeli soldiers to trade them { as they’ve done many times before } for Palestinians being held in Israeli jails. This time Hezbollah wanted 1000 women and children that the barbarian Israelis are holding.
Rather than release those women and children, the barbarians chose instead to destroy Lebanon using civilian killing bombs from the US.
Ariel Sharon got Bush to attack Iraq and Olmert got Bush to look the other way on Lebanon.
Next, the barbarians want Syria and Iran.
The US should stop them now, dead in their tracks.
Ed, apparantly it is all about the water.
“Next, the barbarians want Syria and Iran.
The US should stop them now, dead in their tracks”
Uh Ed….
The US is the barbarian. PNAC wants Syria and Iran. Why would the US stop them dead in their tracks, when the preznit and dead eye dick put them up to it?
Nothing to scare the voters like WWIII, or nukes, or the prospect of shrub not being in charge of the next war. With this situation, they have hit the Trifecta. Perfect country western song.
heheheh.
It’s all about not losing congress, and betting that the voters are as stupid as they are. They are betting that voters will fall for the fear card long enough to not change horses in the middle of a mid-term race.
Their lives depend on the republican house and senate continuing their policy of “dont ask, dont tell” concerning the high crimes and misdemeanors of the bush crime family.
If they lose congress, all their dirty deeds will come to light, and, well, they just cant have that. So much better to war with iran, even if they have to put israel up to starting it.
…and I see israel has as much credibility in the international community right now as bushco….
JR,
You are mixing two levels of incompetence. First being religion and the second the existence of Israel.
On the religios side, the Bible talks about God blessing those who support Israel. They are God’s chosen people, but that is a whole world of discussion.
On the formation side we are talking about decades of things from the Ottoman empire to British control, WWI, WWII, Jew land ownership…etc…etc…
Of course we would be dealing with wonderful things like facts which some find hard to do around here.
Simple logic Nathan.
Benefits to contuously slavishly supporting Israel? None.
Liabilities as a result of supporting Israel? MANY
Damn, If only John Kerry had been president, we would not be having this!!!!!!
Reporting for hubris: All’s possible in Kerry’s fantasy landBy Kathleen Parker/ Syndicated ColumnistWednesday, July 26, 2006WASHINGTON – It takes chutzpah, as they might say in Haifa, to declare that Hezbollah and Israel wouldn’t be fighting now if John Kerry were president.
Kerry, who did declare that, apparently has more chutzpah than nuance, as it turns out.
“If I was president, this wouldn’t have happened,” the Massachusetts senator said in Detroit last week.”If Bill Clinton with all his wisdom and intelligence could not get an agreement for peace in the Middle East what makes blowhard Kerry thinks that he could have did it.
RA,
Can you cite one time when Bush tried to get anyone in the Middle East to consider peace talks?
Do you suppose that “big Ralph” wanted to get all the “chosen ones” in one place to nuke em?
Kathleen Parker is an idiot.
That’s why The Eagle runs her all the time–they can be both “feminist” and “conservative.”
She’s probably also cheap since I can’t imagine that she gets a lot of exposure other than here and Florida.
Anyway, look at the full context of Kerry’s words. It won’t be what she says it means.
Typical wing nut . . .
RD,
What exactly did those peace talks do?
hmmmmmmmmmmm?
Oh yeah, I remember now… something about Arafat backing out on everything… continued violence… you know, the norm.
I know for you disillusioned liberals “peace talks” is all you ever want to do or condone doing, but they dont always work.
I am sure all those peace talks with “peace in our time” chamberlin with Germany before Hitler started steamrolling Eurpoe are a perfect example…
JR,
Like most liberals, you are all for backing out on our allies right?
Who cares about them… lets hang them out to dry.
Is that your position?
RD, Can you name any US president that was able to get a lasting peace. Why the hell would Bush waste his time on something that he can not change? If Clinton could not do it, who can? Clinton tried the very best that any president could.
Allies Nathan?
Um……when?
Seems we do all the giving.
Israel contributes to us…..how?
The Israelis are the wrong tribe.
Israel is nobody’s ally.
Nathan, shoot first and ask questions later? Or maybe it’s kill them all and let God sort them out?
Did you want to answer the question, Nathan? It was directed to RA, but if you’d like to do it instead, please be my guest.
At least Clinton tried and got farther than anyone else ever has.
“I know for you disillusioned liberals “peace talks” is all you ever want to do or condone doing, but they dont always work.”
And war does?
RA,
Thank you. That was an honest answer.
Lasting peace? Never gonna happen. Why? Swords, guns, bombs, etc. work so much better. At least that’s how some view it.
Move them to the “Outback,” so they can “get-along.”
JR, Wake up, Israel is doing our dirty work for us right now, if it wasn’t for them, Hezbollah would be having us in their gun sights.
JR, good question. I was wondering the same, but, as always, you beat me to it. :)
JR,
So we should go ahead and withdrawl from NATO, all our South American Allies, African Allies, and North American ones to, since it is based on what they give us?
Do you know what they give us JR?
THEY GIVE US STRATEGIC INFLUENCE AND STABILITY THROUGHTOUT THE WORLD.
What is it with you democrats? First you want us to be nice to everyone and not hurt their feelings, but with Israel it is all about them not doing anything for us and just leave them out to dry?
Just wondering, because I really don’t know. Why does hatred of Israel seeem to be a basic liberal value?
RD,
War, bombs, guns, and all that seemed to provide Europe with peace. At least for now.
I am not to sure what will happen when we back out because of “what they don’t do for us” JR’s standard of alliances.
Out don’t even go there.
NO ONE has posted hatred for Israel. I certainly don’t hate them either.
But I say our embrace with them causes alot more problems than it solves.
Oh wait…..it doesn’t solve any!
That making it different from the other places Nathan names.
All those bombs, guns, and war things seemed to work out pretty well for South Korea too.
What else did war get us?
Independence
Stoped the Barbary Pirates
Ended slavery
I could go all day.
Here comes trouble…..
In a statement read out on state television on Tuesday, King Abdullah said, “If the option of peace fails as a result of Israeli arrogance, then the only option remaining will be war, and God alone knows what the region would witness in a conflict that would spare no one.”
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/9676C64C-CC57-4F37-BE72-737AF52D34E0.htm
KFG,
You mentioned water. Apparently Israel has been stealing water from southern Lebanon for several years and the reason why that region is so dry. Could this be another reason for the formation of Hezbollah and why they are in southern Lebanon?
Let’s see. Kuwait was siphoning off Iraq’s oil, so when Saddam attacked Kuwait, we sided with Kuwait. Israel siphons off Lebanon’s water, so we side with Israel. Anybody see a pattern to this?
I doubt the middle east will have the balls to attack Israel again.
If they do, I hope they are prepared to loose land permanently this time.
I doubt Israel will be as kind as they were last time they mopped the floor with the middle east.
RA that is silly!
Hezbollah’s rockets have WAY too little range to hit the U.S.!
Israel causes us nothing but trouble. I want the righties to tell us why we keep playing their big brother.
And who arms Israel? Oh, that’s right. The U.S.
As long as there is greed there will be wars.
JR, I should have said “opposition to” rather than “hatred of”. I should not equate oppostion to with hatred of. You see that kfg?
Anyway, I still don’t understand.
JR, we do far more than embrace Israel. We enable them.
Good posts RD
Out?, Nathan? I just want a justification for all the trouble we bring on ourselves by embracing and enabling Israel.
They could swarm Israel with millions and trample everybody.
The night of the long knives.
Let’s talk U.N. Resolutions, shall we?
Here’s a list of U.N. Security Council Resolutions against Israel.1955-1992http://www.middleeastnews.com/unresolutionslist.html
U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTION 425 – March 19, 1978The Security Council,1.Calls for strict respect for the territorial integrity, sovereignty and political independence of Lebanon within its internationally recognized boundaries;2. Calls upon Israel immediately to cease its military action against Lebanese territorial integrity and withdraw forthwith its forces from all Lebanese territory;3. Decides, in the light of the request of the Government of Lebanon, to establish immediately under its authority a United Nations interim force for southern Lebanon for the purpose of confirming the withdrawal of Israeli forces, restoring international peace and security and assisting the Government of Lebanon in ensuring the return of its effective authority in the area, the force to be composed of personnel drawn from States Members of the United Nations.4. Requests the Secretary-General to report to the Council within twenty-four hours on the implementation of this resolution.United Nations Security Council – 03/19/1978Oh, and this one shows even more:http://www.action-for-un-renewal.org.uk/pages/isreal_un_resolutions.htm
“LRB – so, according to your logic, “But bombing Israeli hospitals, ambulences, refugees, etc. that are used as cover by Israeli military is justified.” i.e. Haifa”
If the Israeli military, and its equipment, was hiding amongst the civilians of Haifa and using them for cover you would have a point.
Since it’s not – you don’t.
Next?
“I doubt the middle east will have the balls to attack Israel again.”
I agree. I doubt the crazed mullahs in Tehran had the current Israeli response as part of their calculus.
“JR, we do far more than embrace Israel. We enable them.”
We sould enable them even more.
“RA that is silly!
Hezbollah’s rockets have WAY too little range to hit the U.S.!”Posted by: J R | July 26, 2006 at 01:58 PM
J R, What is silly is thinking that the only weapons that Hezbollah has are the rockets and that their cells are only in the Middle East.
“Bush and Rice are giving Israel cover to continue these actions.”
Whether this is their intent or not, is immaterial, because it is the result.
And, I am thinking that the nearly $3/gallon in gas I paid this a.m. has NOTHING to do with mid-east instability.
On gasoline prices:
“The conflict in the Middle East is driving the market right now and in particular, the price of crude oil, the main ingredient in gasoline,” said Catherine L. Rossi, manager of Public and Government Affairs for AAA Mid-Atlantic. “This is a very volatile gasoline market and it’s anyone’s guess where prices will go next.”
I bet they go way up if there is an all out war in the middle east.
http://philadelphia.bizjournals.com/philadelphia/stories/2006/07/24/daily28.html
You all sure have changed your tune. Something I said?
J-gas anyone?
Ed,
My tune is the same as it always has been. I’ve agreed with you on Zionism more than once.
What is absolutely hilarious is that we are not paying for the current price of oil. We’re paying the price speculators set for it.
About a year ago, I heard one of the OPEC members on NPR state that they are not producing near peak.
RD,It seems rather backasswards to me. I wish there was a way of protest. Other than stop using as much – I’m already just driving to and from work. I schedule grocery shopping and other errands when I know I’ll be driving by the store. If I’m at home and discover I’m out of something too darn bad, I’m not making a special trip (I’m 18.5 miles one way from the nearest grocery store or wal-mart).
A Must Read……….
Rami Khoury, the editor-at-large of the Daily Star in Lebanon writes, however, that Ms. Rice’s description last week of the fighting in Lebanon and Israel as the “birth pangs” of a new Middle East is more likely “the initial dying gasps of the Western-made political order that has defined this region and focused primarily on Israeli national dictates for most of the past half a century.” One reason for this is that Washington “now can only speak to a few Arab governments (Saudi Arabia, Egypt and elsewhere) who are in almost no position to affect anyone other than their immediate families and many guards.”
Washington is engaged almost exclusively with Arab governments whose influence with Syria is virtually nonexistent, whose credibility with Arab public opinion is zero, whose own legitimacy at home is increasingly challenged and whose pro-US policies tend to promote the growth of those militant Islamist movements that now lead the battle against American and Israeli policies. Is Rice traveling to a new Middle East, or to a diplomatic Disneyland of her own imagination?
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0726/dailyUpdate.html?s=mesdu
JR,
What “trouble” are we bringing on ourselves?
I am seeing the truth come to light here now.
As many of you are starting to agree with Ed. It appears as if this has to do with your own bigotry towards Jews.
That explains why so many of you are against Israel.
Feel free to claim that you don’t hold this view if you don’t.
A Must Read….
Rami Khoury, the editor-at-large of the Daily Star in Lebanon writes, however, that Ms. Rice’s description last week of the fighting in Lebanon and Israel as the “birth pangs” of a new Middle East is more likely “the initial dying gasps of the Western-made political order that has defined this region and focused primarily on Israeli national dictates for most of the past half a century.” One reason for this is that Washington “now can only speak to a few Arab governments (Saudi Arabia, Egypt and elsewhere) who are in almost no position to affect anyone other than their immediate families and many guards.”
Washington is engaged almost exclusively with Arab governments whose influence with Syria is virtually nonexistent, whose credibility with Arab public opinion is zero, whose own legitimacy at home is increasingly challenged and whose pro-US policies tend to promote the growth of those militant Islamist movements that now lead the battle against American and Israeli policies. Is Rice traveling to a new Middle East, or to a diplomatic Disneyland of her own imagination?
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0726/dailyUpdate.html?s=mesdu
LRB – next – there is zero evidence that Hizbollah ahs their rockets in Beiruet. So why destroy it?
Nathan,
Why bother denying? Just because you consider all Arabs terrorists, you think we can’t differentiate between Zionists and Jews.
“Is Rice traveling to a new Middle East, or to a diplomatic Disneyland of her own imagination?”
I vote Disneyland. Any woman who is off buying shoes while people die must live in her own la-la-land.
Ben,
They are destroying infrastructure believed to be used to support the leadership of the Hezbollah.
Once again, you understanding of military tactics is showing.
To destroy your enemy you cut off their command structure, means of supply, isolate them, and kill them.
I know you liberals hate Israel because they have jets, tanks, well equiped soldiers while those poor terrorists don’t have much.
I figure the buzz word was disproportionate response.
I am sorry to tell you, but it make no military sense to fight against Hezbollah by simply trying to destroy their rockets.
To defeat them you must isolate them, destroy their resupply, cut them off from escape, etc…etc…
It is not as simple as saying lets just blow up their rockets.
RD,
I don’t think all arabs are terrorists.
Now answer my question.
LRB Quit posting my own words back at me and answer the question. Why should we enable Israel more?
Nathan, nice job! YOU can’t justify for me any reason why we embrace and enable Israel. And so you accuse me of hate.
SO I ask again.
We send billions of dollars a year to Israel. WHy?
We arm Israel. Why?
Our embrace of and enabling Israel costs us relations with other countries in that region. Justify please?
Nathan, I did. I have bigotry toward Jews, Arabs, African-Americans, Mexicans… The list goes on.
JR, nobody can justify it.My guess is that it has something to do with the Judeo-Christian connection.If that is the reasoning though, why do we give almost equally to Egypt? Land of Exodus?
*NO* bigotry
So RD, if I’m black then you hate me?What if I’m Irish? You buy me a beer?
RD,
So what part of all of Ed’s nonsense is it you agree with.
If you are going to start saying you agree with a racist bigot you should be specific on which points.
I posted late.I guess it’s alright if I’m a black Irish Jew then.
I’m confused.I’ll wait in the car.
Nathan – then Hizbollah could argue that by hitting Haifa etc they are degrading the infrastructure that supports the IDF. And on and on we go.
Tracy,
My multi-tasking isn’t working today. Trying to listen to voice chat while typing is hazardous. I corrected. Want me to re-post? I’ll happily do it.
AND WE HAVE A WINNER!!!
Thank you Tracy. That is EXACTLY it. But you will NEVER get the right to admit that we are making foreign policy based on religion! That would make us sorta like the Taliban or other theistically directed nations wouldn’t it? And Nathan and LRB aint got the intellectual honesty to post it.
“I guess it’s alright if I’m a black Irish Jew then.”
Whatever makes you happy, hon. :)
JR,
We have armed South Korea, we give South Korea aid, and we upset people like North Korea which causes tension in the region…
Why do we do it?
We have given aid and armed many countries in Europe which caused tension within Asia.
Why did we do it?
It is called supporting countries which are friendly to America and provide strategic value to us.
Why shouldn’t help Israel?
The only thing not helping Israel would do is invite the Middle East to once again try to invade and kill all the Jews.
That is what you want though isn’t it? The extermination of the Jews…drive them into the sea?
And then we will have another dictatorship which may or may not be friendly to the US.
Of course, all this requires VISION and FORETHOUGHT, not just a bunch of reactionary pandering which the left seems to be best at.
Weakness invites conflict.
Nathan,
I HAVE been specific about many of Ed’s posts. YOU don’t seem to understand the difference between Zionists and Jews or even acknowledge that there is a difference.
JR,
Listen to Nathan. He’s explaining to you why we armed Iran and Iraq.
Hey Ben,
You make a great PR spin for the terrorists. Then again, that appears to be what you are good at.
If you want to stretch attacking an Israel outpost and taking soldiers hostage to release the demand of prisoners and then firing rockets indiscriminately into Israel the same kind of military tactics that Israel is using then there is not much I can do for you.
Keep trying to stick up for those terrorists Ben. I am sure you sleep better at night for it.
“LRB – next – there is zero evidence that Hizbollah ahs their rockets in Beiruet. So why destroy it?”
Then there is zero evidence Israel is shelling Beirut. There is also zero evidence the sun rose in the East this morning.
You need to stop getting all your information from Hizbullah press conferences and Al Jazeera. Try Google News to get a more balanced view.
Well about the only thing I could add would be cross-dressing?Ah, never mind. I never did like Boy George.
I admit, I’m a wasp.
My beautiful grandkids are half black though. That’s right, I learned loving tolerance and accptance the hard way.
RD you’re pullin my leg ain’t ya?About being bigoted?You can’t hate them sweet innocent kids, they didn’t get to order their skin color.
Be honest Nathan.
Israel is a zero sum asset and a TREMENDOUS liablility.
Be honest about why.
And no I don’t want all the Jews killed.
But they didn’t have to go there did they?
I’m sorry Nathan. I cannot justify the creation of and maintenance of a nation because of some ancient religious assertions.
RD,
I have ignored most of Ed’s posts since who know’s when because I found them to be the same old blame Israel for everything diatribes again and again.
I don’t recall Ed doing much differntiating.
However, please feel free to explain to me what the difference is in your opinion between a zionist and a jew and what it is that you feel towards the “zionists”
With all the attention toward Lebanon, the Israelis have a free hand killing Palestinians in their refugee camps in Gaza.
Out of sight, out of mind.http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/742784.html
I know what I think the difference is and I see no reason to think differently about either of them.
Ed is turning out to be correct about alotta things.
Ed is also not intellectually dishonest.
Tracy,
Here’s the corrected version of my post. Please read it and accept it and also accept my apology for leaving out a very important word.
Nathan, I did. I have no bigotry toward Jews, Arabs, African-Americans, Mexicans… The list goes on.
Let’s try an analogy, Nathan. Zionists=Al Qaeda. Does that help any? The only difference is, Zionists rule Israel, while AQ doesn’t rule the Arab world.
Ed’s opinions are much stronger and wider than mine. However, I have stated that I agree with the basis of his arguments, although I do not always agree with his arguments.
You may see everything in black and white. I see shades of gray.
RD,
You have yet to say what it is you agree with ED on.
JR,
What is it you agree with Ed on?
I am curious, please tell me. I have seen the guy post nothing but attacks on Israel since day one.
So please share what it is you agree with him on.
What is it that you think should happen to the “zionists” and what is a “zionist”
Please do tell.
Well that’s good because I was gonna hafta come up there with my black jewish queer friends and, well……..just kidden.
I’m bigoted against bigots.
The only thing I know is that the USA has some misguided loyalty worldwide.
Zionist = Al Queda????
When did this start? What have the “zionists” done which is like Al Queada?
Zionist traditionally means a Jew who believes they should have a homeland in Israel.
When did it change?
“You need to stop getting all your information from Hizbullah press conferences and Al Jazeera.”
I have never seen a Hizbollah press conference on Al Jazeera. In fact, I have never seen Al Jazeera – can you pick it up here?
YOU, on the other hand, need to stop getting all your news from Hatzofeh and Rush O’Hannity.
I aint required to answer your questions if you don’t answer mine Nathan.
The amount of money and trouble our relationship with Israel costs us vs. benefit……WHY?
“Feel free to claim that you don’t hold this view if you don’t.”
I don’t and thanks for your generous offer.
“It is not as simple as saying lets just blow up their rockets.”
Can you explain to us what would be wrong with negoiating an immediate cease fire? Innocent civilians, including children, are being killed.
If our (the U.S.) gripes are with the Sirians and Iran, why aren’t we dealing directly with them, rather than stepping back and allowing this slaughter?
Not only do I think our middle east policy is morally wrong, it is affecting my quality of life in terms of gas prices.
Oh, excuse me, I forgot conservatives have exclusive ownership of the moral arguments, right?
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it must be a dog.
RD,
Was that your intelligently well thought out response to my question about zionists?
JR,
I have answered your question at least twice now.
It is about supportin countries which are friendly to America, promote the things we believe in, provide a strategic advantage for us…etc…etc…
I think we also support them to help promote peace through power. Israel is not bent on destroying the middle east. However, if the many of the countries in the middle east had the chance they would eradicate Israel.
Those are some reasons why we support them.
What is the justification for our devotion to Israel Nathan? Name the resource or interest. Of THIS world I mean.
True, Nathan, in the beginning.
Exodus was always one of my favorite books. I love to read about the history of the Jewish people, especially during the Holocast.
I watched Schindler’s List and sobbed for a solid hour and a half afterward.
So you just keep calling me a bigot, Nathan, if that’s what makes you happy.
“Zionist traditionally means a Jew who believes they should have a homeland in Israel.” – and, since it was already populated when they arrived from Europe that they have a right to eliminate that population and steal their land.
In the Book of Joshua they relate that they committed genocide to do so. They claim that their god told them genocide was the way to go.
DD,
First of all, what kind of negotiations do you have with terrorists?
They initiated this and now that Israel is going to do what they need to do to destroy them everyone is calling for a cease fire.
Why?
So Hezbollah can resupply and stock up and build more weapons caches?
The same reason we didn’t negotiate a “cease fire” with Japan is one of the same reasons we don’t negotiate a cease fire with Hezbollah.
I don’t think this is a “slaughter”
I think you are being a bit sensational by calling it that.
A “slaughter” would be systematically killing anyone and everything that got in Israels way.
I don’t think conservatives have exclusive rights on morals, just more of them have them and care about them.
“friendly to America”
Nathan?
The folks in Darfur are not UN friendly to America. Why are we not helping them???
“Strategic interests” Oh you mean like being big brother for the country the whole region hates? That’s strategic?
Honesty Nathan. How about some honesty.
JR,
That is honest. Is there some answer you want me to give which I have not.
I have answered your question 3 times now.
If you have a point to make, just make it.
Nathan,
Your definition of Zionists will suffice. They were given the land they claimed as theirs.
It’s just too bad that people can’t learn to live with each other.
Support Israel when they can’t shoot straight? The overwhelming air control to target roads and infastructure of Lebanon, gas stations, what makes any city run when society breaks down. Got to give people still left in the area some ability to escape and get help. Ambulances were bombed with red crosses on top of the vehicles.
I don’t support Israel waging this much war for a few soldiers. They won’t win in the long run, only more war when Syria, Iran people start flowing into the area. Those from Jordan and Saudia Arabia. They won’t win war inside Lebanon.
——
The strike that hit UN observers continued to be debated Wednesday.
The four killed were members of the Observer Group Lebanon (OGL), part of the UN Truce Supervision Organization, whose unarmed military officers deployed in 1948 to monitor the armistice agreement that ended the first Arab-Israeli war. The group works closely with UNIFIL, the peacekeeping force in south Lebanon. The OGL position, a three-story building with “UN” painted in large black letters, has existed at the southern end of the Shiite town of Khiam since 1948.
In a statement, the Israeli army expressed “deep regret” for the killings of the four UN observers, and said that “it would never intentionally target any UN facility or personnel.” An Israeli government spokesman said that while Israel has its differences with UNIFIL, the deaths were a case of a mistaken firing.
Khiam, which sits atop a ridge three miles north of the Israeli border, and the area to the east have been heavily hit by Israeli artillery bombardments and airstrikes since the campaign to crush Hizbullah began. In the past three days, the UN observers reported frequent “firings close,” the UN designation for rounds exploding within 300 yards of one of their positions.
Heavy shelling in the Khiam area Tuesday forced the UN observers to go “ground hog,” UNIFIL’s term for heading to the bomb shelters. At around 1:20 p.m., an Israeli jet dropped a bomb just 300 yards from the UN post. The Israeli Air Force has dropped hundreds of these massive aerial bombs since the war began, each one turning three- or four-story houses into rubble and killing anyone inside.
The OGL observers immediately contacted their operations room at UNIFIL’s headquarters in Naqoura to alert them of the close impact. The group then warned the Israeli military that their aircraft were dropping bombs dangerously close to a UN position. The Israelis responded to OGL that they would check the situation and make any necessary adjustments. Yet over the next six hours, Israeli jets dropped another 10 aerial bombs between 100 yards and 300 yards from the UN position, according to a UNIFIL officer.
“The bombs were falling on the heads of our guys for six hours,” the officer says. “We kept telling the Israelis that our men had been lucky so far but next time there was going to be a tragedy and could they please correct their targeting. We were begging them to stop.”
The fatal airstrike hit the UN post at around 7:20 p.m., with one bomb striking the three-story building.
“One direct hit completely destroyed the three-story building and at least one more bomb hit the position,” says Milos Strugar, UNIFIL’s senior adviser. By midday Wednesday, UNIFIL rescue teams were still attempting to recover the bodies.
UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan said he was “shocked and deeply distressed by the apparently deliberate targeting by the Israel Defense Forces of a UN observer post in southern Lebanon.”
RD,
Are you now saying that zionist do not equal Al Quada?
I am still curious as to what it is you agree with Ed on?
Mrage – those bombs were really dropped by Hizbollah jets.
“First of all, what kind of negotiations do you have with terrorists?”
and then…
“I don’t think this is a “slaughter”
“I think you are being a bit sensational by calling it that.”
Of course there is nothing snesational or rhetorical in your first comment, now is there?
Bush and Rice are saying that the U.S. has problems with Syria and Iran supporting terrorists. Why aren’t we talking to them directly about what needs to happen?
What is the death count now with this conflict: 400 Lebonese, 20 Israelis? Most people I know call that lop-sided of an outcome, a slaughter. But let’s not call it what it is, that would set a precedent for this administration they wouldn’t like.
DD,
Of course when you pull out numbers and look at them without any context it is easy to try to make false and misleading comparisons like you are doing.
If it is numbers which make things ok, then I suppose your stance is that for every Israel person killed Israel may kill that many in retribution?
Now there is some common sense for you!
When you are fighting a group of people in urban terrain who have no regard for the people they are going to endanger then innocent people are going to die.
If you want to call it a slaughter, then it is the Hezbollah terrorists/militants who choose to fight amoungst civilians who are causing it.
Syria and Iran? Oh yeah, as if their leaders are the epitomy of reasoned diplomacy…
Nathan,
I’m saying the Zionists use some of the same methods. If you don’t agree, that’s fine with me.
DD – by the time they find the corpses it will be over 1000 Lebanese – mostly women and children.
RD,
Lets use some common sense here now shall we?
Israel has existed for over 50 years now.
I think it is safe to say that most of the Jews who live there support their having a homeland, i.e. Israel.
If we both agree that a zionist is simply someone who believe Israel should have a homeland, then that is most of the Jews in Israel.
So, now, please tell me what it is that the “zionists” are doing which is like Al Queda?
Do you have some examples? Anything recent?
It seems to me you are saying that pretty much all of Israel is a nation of terrorists.
Please explain. I want to know. I am forced to ask all these questions because you are being so vague.
You say you agree with Ed, but wont say what with.
You say zionist = Al Quada, then you say they sometimes do the same things… like what?
Ed has consistently done more than provide link after link after link of some off the wall news agency or whatnot on how Israel is to blame or the Jews or Zionists…whatever, I really don’t pay that much attention.
Most of his posts clearly convey his hate and bigotry for the nation of Israel which in my mind encompasses the Jews and everyone else there too.
So, what is it that you agree with Ed on RD?
Nathan,
ESAD
Let it be known, that once again, when faced with an actual discussion with facts, logic, and reason this is what people resort to:
ESAD
If it is too difficult to actually support your statements then why make them?
Nathan, you won’t accept anything from me that you don’t agree with. I have better things to do with my time. Obviously, you don’t.
RD,
you are wasting your time in trying to reason with Nathan. Sadly, he has fallen for the lie that the Jews are the “chosen people”.
The zionists have bben engaging in terrorism and ethnic cleansing sine 1948 and you can expect that to continue in their quest for “greater Israel”!
Burning Babies Are Child’s Play To Israel’s Ethnic CleansersRacial purists don’t accept civilian slaughter as a necessity of war, they fiendishly embrace it as they pursue an “ethno-bomb”
Paul Joseph Watson/Prison Planet | July 25 2006
The megalomaniacs that control Israel wish to live in a world largely devoid of Muslims or Persians and they have embarked on a hundred year plus mission of ethnic cleansing to wipe them from the globe. The blitzkrieg of Lebanon is part of this process.
Race-specific bio-weapons have already been developed for this purpose.
From Wired News,
“Israel is reportedly developing a biological weapon that would harm Arabs while leaving Jews unaffected, according to a report in London’s Sunday Times.The report, citing Israeli military and western intelligence sources, says that scientists are trying to identify distinctive genes carried by Arabs to create a genetically modified bacterium or virus.”
“The “ethno-bomb” program is based at Israel’s Nes Tziyona research facility. Scientists are trying to use viruses and bacteria to alter DNA inside living cells and attack only those cells bearing Arabic genes.”
Imagine if plans were unearthed detailing a program on behalf of Kim Jong-il or Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to create an ethno-bomb to wipe out Jews or caucasians. How would Israel and the United States react?
Only Israel is allowed to be nuclear-armed, violate dozens of UN treaties, use chemical weapons on civilians, and construct horrific policies of ethnic cleansing….http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/july2006/250706ethniccleansers.htm
V.L.R.B!!
RD,
You have yet to present anything. Everytime I ask you a question or confront your statement you back away from it or come up with some vague reply.
If it is a matter of time and not wasting it, then all you had to do was simply say you don’t have time.
Of course, it really wasn’t about time though…
Big difference between Israel, South Korea, Taiwan, the number of their spies we catch stealing our secrets. Another big difference we not only sell arms to Israel, we give them the money to buy them with, so actually you and I are paying for Israel to be armed to the teeth. The U.S. can settle their difference with 90% of the mid-east, Israel will never be able to.
Julie,
I hear ya on the shopping. I used to do mine every other week. It took most of the day, from the time the kids went to school, until I picked them up in the afternoon. All shopping and errands were planned for that day. I’d buy 8 gallons of milk (we had an extra fridge) and had 2 two-week menus to make shopping easier.
I still try to drive as little as possible. I’d walk, but who wants to walk when it’s 100+ degrees?
We do what we can.
Ian,
Who is the Nathan you mentioned?
I saw Nathan attempted to fire the ‘bigot bullet’ with his uncanny accuracy!Would you believe there actuall exist a religious movement to convert Jews to Christianity? And they believe when it happens, all will be well with the world!
Nathan won’t say it. LRB aint gonna say it either. And of course bush probably doesn’t even know where Israel is.
The fact is simply this.
Israel is a nation concieved out of the religious beliefs of a particular group of people. It has no basis in reality or justification beyond that.
The reason America is so slavishly devotional to Israel is also founded in religion. SOME Christians believe that the nation that finds favor with Israel finds favor with GOD.
God remains silent.
And if Nathan has any proof of any other purpose for the continued existence of Israel, he did not post it.
I say religious faith is a lousy thing to have as a major base in foreign policy…..or as the justification for the existence of a nation. And 50 years of history in the middle east largely proves me right.
Ya know what Isreal is? It’s a made up land where people go to feel like they are “home”.
Do I hate Jews? No! Do I think the Jews should have a homeland? Sure. (Although most of the rest of us call where we happen to be living “home”. Not sure why they need to be special) But it needs a different location. It does not have a right to exist in the one it is in. And as long as it does, it will never have peace.
And God will remain silent.
J R – I am one of those who believes that there CAN be peace with Israel in the Middle East. The key is that they must be willing to share the land with those people who were there first. That means return to the approximate 1967 borders and allow for a free and independent Palestinian state. Either that or a one-state solution with full democracy – universal suffrage. My two-state solution would require neutral peace-keepers to help with nation-building in what is now the “territories”.
Ask yourself this: If you had surveyed the devastation of Europe in 1945 would you have imagined Germany, Poland, France, etc working together.
The irony here is that Palestine and Lebanon are both culturally western in their ways. They are more “Mediterranean” than “Middle Eastern”. A Common Market throughout the Levant would be a wonderful dream.
JR,
You speak with absolute ignorance of history in your comments.
You think Israel was created for purely religious reasons?
Jews had been purchasing land there for some time. They actually owned a significant portion of the land before it was formed as Israel.
The UN (The almighty body of approval for all on the left) set forth the terms for the creation of Israel.
I can’t even begin to talk about all the history of violence between the arabs and Jews before this and Great Britains role and what not.
The point is, your analysis of why/how Israel came to fruition is woefully devoid of history.
Your homework assignment for me tonight is to come up with who the land belonged to and for how as recorded in history.
Simply saying Israel was not there first and has no claim and should just leave is childish.
Do you have any comprehension of the spoils of war or territory captured?
Do you also think that America should give back Texas to Mexico?
Things are the way they are JR. Israel is there and your assertion for them to just leave is quite frankly assinine.
Then again, I figured you were on the side of them just being driven into the sea anyhow. You want US support withdrawn and you seem to be against them defending themselves, you want them to leave…
Nathan – at least in Texas we allowed the residents to become Americans and gave them rights of citizenship. Using your logic Israel should do the same in the Territories.
Ben,
I was speaking of things before the formation of Israel. Where the UN already divided things and came up with a plan which the arab states rejected and then went to war trying to take it all.
Big difference. In my opinion if Israel took the land then they can keep it.
Spoils of war.
“Of course when you pull out numbers and look at them without any context”
I wondered when nathan would get around to the “context” comment. No spewing from him is complete without it. It is guaranteed he will use it when he is losing.
Predictable.
An interesting history of Israel and “Palestine”. Nathan is correct in his assertions.
“The term “Palestine” came from the name that the conquering Roman Empire gave the ancient Land of Israel in an attempt to obliterate and de-legitimize the Jewish presence in the Holy Land. The name “Palestine” was invented in the year 135 C.E. Before it was known as Judea, which was the southern kingdom of ancient Israel. The Roman Procurator in charge of the Judean-Israel territories was so angry at the Jews for revolting that he called for his historians and asked them who were the worst enemies of the Jews in their past history. The scribes said, “the Philistines.” Thus, the Procurator declared that Land of Israel would from then forward be called “Philistia” [further bastardized into "Palaistina"] to dishonor the Jews and obliterate their history. Hence the name “Palestine.”
Over 3250 years, various Peoples, Religions and Empires marched through Jerusalem, Israel’s ancient capital. The region was successively ruled by the Hebrews [Jews], Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Maccabeans, Romans, Byzantines, Arabs, Egyptians, the Crusaders, Mamelukes, the Turks (who indifferently governed the backward, neglected territory from the 16th century until the British drove them out during World War I) and then once again by the Jews in 1948. None bothered, nor were they in the least bit inclined, to build a Nation of their own… EXCEPT the Jews!
Very often one hears the revisionists and propagandists finding ancient historical links between the “Philistines” (”Invaders” in Hebrew) and the Arab “Palestinians.” There is no truth to this claim! The Philistines were one of a number of Sea Peoples who reached the eastern Mediterranean region approximately 1250-1100 B.C.E. They were actually an amalgamation of various ethnic groups, primarily of Aegean and south-east European origin [Greece, Crete and Western Turkey] and they died out over 2500 years ago! Those Philistines were not Arab… and neither was Goliath! The Arabs of “Palestine” are just that… Arabs! And these Arabs of “Palestine” have about as much historical roots to the ancient Philistines as Yasser Arafat has to the Eskimos!”
From http://www.masada2000.org/
Right, JR. When Jesus talks about the “end times” in Matt 24, he’s prophesying about the time you describe.
Not a stone of the temple was left on top of another stone. The Romans tried to put a statue of Jove in the temple earlier, just as the Gospels predicted.
The “end times” have already happened.
If you’re a liberal here and don’t believe in God, raise your hand.
My guess is that the ratio of liberal atheists to theists is 100:1
In spite of a threatening migraine, 3 kids under age 5 and all, I’ve been trying to read through Israeli history. I don’t think I’ve ever seen such a screwed up mess. As far as I’m concerned, they’re all nuts. Britain didn’t do anyone any favors when dividing up the land…how many times? I wouldn’t even want to begin to try to sort through what belongs to who and who was where first. Perhaps no one was? It is so convoluted.
Nothing seems to have progressed in the Middle East except hatred, and that grows by the day. They’re all wrong, they’re all right. Too bad they all can’t live together, but each side sees the land as “theirs” and nothing but “all” will do. Mine, mine, mine! Sounds like a bunch of 2-year-olds. And believe me, I know about that.
Here’s a great quote from Harry Truman, found in his diary. I think ol’ Give ‘em Hell Harry had the right idea.
“I think the proper thing to do, and the thing I have been doing, is to do what I think is right and let them all go to hell.”
And with that, I’ll bow out of the discussion. Too bad everyone has to take a side, because again, both are right, both are wrong, and innocent people who just want to live are dying because of it.
LRB,
To which “God” are you referring?
You might want to check the definition of theism:
“Belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in a personal God as creator and ruler of the world.”
Many of our Founding Fathers were deists (Deism: The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation), hence the term “Creator” in the Declaration.
Read the Bible. Jesus was a Liberal in the truest sense of the word.
“To which “God” are you referring?”
Typical liberal, can’t even answer a simple question without spouting some sophmoric relativism.
“Is the sky blue?”
Why do you mean by “blue”. A hue, an attitude, …,
1966 called and wants it thought patterns back.
“1966 called and wants it thought patterns back.”
If 1966 has a thought pattern, it’s one up on LRB.
“My guess is that the ratio of liberal atheists to theists is 100:1″
I think you’re wrong, dingbat. Prove your facts instead of foaming at the mouth.
Gee, in 1966 I was in high school. That must be where my thought patterns came from. Funny that I registered Republican when I was old enough to vote.
Blatant blanket statements such as the one you made, LRB, will need defining. I was just trying to give you a hand.
I think Republicans are more (old schoo) Old Testament, while Democrats are more modern oriented (New Testament).
Sure would be nice if the thread format gave you a few minutes to edit postings!
Zionist logic would predicate that if Mexicans united and pooled their money into buying properties in Texas or California, they could get their land back and reattach it to Mexico.
You’re pretty good at broad statements LRB. That and judging others.
Why don’t you start defining yourself? Or would you rather we drew our own conclusions?
What say Nathan about the editorial from the Jewish person that condemns Zionist Israel, is she a bigot too?
Poor troops in Iraq, thought they were getting ’short’ only to find out Bush is going to extend their tour.
Nathan,You are not reasonable now, and you probably never have been.
Good luck to you. God speed. And I am hoping you come back to discuss this some more.
Iraq is nothing but a puppet government of America now. They must be taught to sit, roll over, and play dead at our command. Bottom line, we own Iraq. The whole Middle East is next.
Reports are that the Israelis are targeting ambulences in Lebanon.
Here’s why.
http://www.danegerus.com/weblog/Comments.asp?svComment=15105
It’s nearly impossible to believe Israel launced their war for two captive soldiers. It was just their excuse.
The Israeli soldiers were captured while conducting operations on Lebanese territory, so what did thay expect would happen? The whole “incident” was designed to sucker Syria and Iran into a wider war!
V.L.R.B!!
The Israeli soldiers were captured while at their post inside of Israel by Hezbullah terrorists. Those are the facts.
Now, I’m not Jewish or a big fan of Israel, but, I am a fan of the truth.
Sorry LRB, but I dispute your “facts”!
V.L.R.B!!
The dispute them.
I’m waiting.
Here you go, LRB. The israeli soldiers were taken captive near the town of Aitaa al-Chaab, inside of Lebanon.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/israeli_solders.html
V.L.R.B!!
Good shot Ian!
Somebody is not telling the truth. I wonder who?
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-07-12-hezbollah_x.htm?csp=34
“Here you go, LRB. The israeli soldiers were taken captive near the town of Aitaa al-Chaab, inside of Lebanon.”
Sorry, but I require an acutal legitimate source of news. Not some tabloid.
Try again.
“Here you go, LRB. The israeli soldiers were taken captive near the town of Aitaa al-Chaab, inside of Lebanon.”
Sorry, but I require an acutal legitimate source of news. Not some tabloid.
Try again.
Something like this …
“Hezbollah guerrillas crossed the border and launched a surprise attack on two Israeli Humvees, …”
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-07-12-hezbollah_x.htm?csp=34