A USA Today story focused largely on the presidential prospects of Sen. Sam Brownback, R-Kan., pondered the question before social conservatives for 2008: “Support a candidate who has a good shot of winning but a short history on their core issues? Or back a true believer who faces a steep uphill fight?” (Brownback would be the latter.) “I love Sam Brownback,” said Richard Land, president of the Southern Baptist Convention’s Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission. “Sam Brownback is a great man, and Sam Brownback is a great senator.” Land added: “Whether he is a credible presidential candidate is up to Sam to prove.” First, though, Brownback will have to do something about the fact that, according to a USA Today/Gallup Poll last month, 3 of 4 Americans either have never heard of him or have no opinion of him.
Here is the story’s money quote from Brownback, spoken to an Iowa crowd: “These are tough issues. This isn’t a ride in the park. This is about life. This is about marriage. This is about God in the public square.” He added: “We could win this thing, and we could have another 100 years as the greatest nation on the face of the Earth, and we could lose it and we could lose the culture.”
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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92 Comments
Bush has ruined it for any more of his genre.
Sam needs to resign from the U.S. Senate and find a church pulpit from which to express his opinions. I’m sure he knows that but doesn’t have the guts to make the change.
A great man and a great Senator? This should teach people not to believe everything they are told by the Southern Baptist Convention.I have visited Mr. Brownback’s office several times. He cannot even do a decent job of running a Washington DC office! How can he run the country?What do I mean? I have never met Mr. Brownback during my trips to his office. I was not from one of his pet groups, though I was a constituent from his area. Apparently I was from a group he would rather forget, or at least not talk to nor represent. You see, I was a common worker that happened to be in DC for training sessions related to my job. I represented the average person from the Wichita area that labors daily for my livelihood. Though it was clear that Mr. Brownback was in his office, because he was seen guiding a group of Asian men wearing nice suits and carrying briefcases, he was too busy to meet with us after they left. I felt I could see more Kansas jobs walking out the door when they left.Would I help Mr. Brownback move to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue? NO WAY! He has always been too busy chasing his “ideals” to help me. If he thinks this is about “God in the public square” he needs to read Jimmy Carter’s book “Our Endangered Values”. He might learn something about God and government.
I think I have it figured out. I was never a frozen embryo. I came into the world the hard way so Sammy boy thinks I don’t need any consideration. I am fair game to be taxed, otherwise I can be ignored until election time.
Your out of your F-ing mind!
“Bush has ruined it for any more of his genre”.
I wouldn’t bet on that. Somebody left the door open to the asylum and the nutcases are running free. And they vote. Sam Brownback would make Bush look like an athiest.
Oh great! We all know the “born again” cult will support him. But his prayers and connection with God isn’t strong enough to mircle his way to the Presidency.
It looks like The Wichita Eagle might love him!! Is it that the Eagle is getting cheap labor?
Randy ScholfieldPosted on Fri, May. 12, 2006
“I never thought I would say this, but here goes: I’m proud of Sam Brownback. I don’t agree with the conservative Kansas senator on many issues, but he deserves credit for his brave and compassionate stand on immigration.” Randy Scholfield is an Eagle editorial writer. His column appears on Fridays. Reach him at (316) 268-6545 or rscholfield@wichitaeagle.com
Hi Joe Williams. One of the “born again cult” here, just back from church where, of course, we got our marching orders on how to think, act, and talk. Of course we were instructed to vote for Sam Brownback because everyone knows that we can’t think for ourselves.
I have noted that you want to raise a graven image to the sky for the folks to worship. Good for you!
Just wondering what “cult” you belong to? Maybe Presbyterian, Episcopalian, Catholic, Shriner, or even Atheist? Possibly Moron?
I’m kidding.
But seriously Joe, you need to figure out that that “born again” does not mean you vote a certain way or have a certain party affiliation. Jesse Jackson and Sam Brownback both claim to be “born again” Christians. When you try to use the religious term in political ways, you will end up mislabeling people.
I need to be “born again” believing church is a sancturary and not the place to hear political speech.
God isn’t Republican or Democrat, definable, unbeliviable to some. To further a political party is not God’s way. Keeping the kingdom of politics running this country forever and ever is Republican idoltry talk. They have done it recently with illegal money laundering tactics. Corporate supporters defrauding investors, taking advantage of consumers, doing environmental damage for big money reasons. Not to better this planet, just to fatten the pocketbooks. That profit funneled into the political machine during elections.
The golden calf is cash spent keeping some jerks in office too long.
Brownback has no chance to win the Presidency yet he’ll profit monetarily.
I’m sorry Outlander, but the “born again” is a cult. That’s fine that you believe in it. And that being a “born again” Christian means that you get from church your marching orders on how to think, act, and talk.
I’m no fan of organized religion, but being “born again” followers means that you believe people who are not a part of your “born again” cult are not true Christians, and therefore are going to hell.
You believe people who are not “born again” christians are walking along side the devil, they are less than human, they are blind, stupid, (your words) moronic, uneducated, lacking mental capacity, evil, and the list can continue for every derogatory word in the english dictionary.
You’re no different from Scientologist, Radical Islam, Fascit and other dangerous or obscure religious cults.
The only reason why you voted for Bush is because he is a “born again” christian. One thing is for sure. You’re not going to vote for somebody who isn’t.
I’m sure you’re going to counter me with some “your just spiritually blind” comments.
I don’t care if you belong to that cult. I don’t mind that the cult exist. And if you guys want to try to control the government, then go ahead. One thing is certain. I will keep an eye on you guys, I’ll fight for my freedom if you choose to take it away, and I will express my opinion about you. I think your a radical group of people bent on controlling society. You want God in government, in public schools, and in every person’s heart. Your mission is to convert everybody to “born again”. Sound so familiar to radical islam.
I’m not afraid of you guys though. I’ll be a brick that will build a wall to block your mission. And no! The devil is not standing next to me.
Joe: You used “born again cult” to describe a voting block. Jesse Jackson and George Bush both claim to be “born again” Christians. I doubt that those two would agree on anything. How do you square your comment with reality?Now let’s examine your “cult” comment. Here is a definition of “cult” that I found:
“In religion and sociology, a cult is a cohesive group of people (often a relatively small and recently founded religious movement) devoted to beliefs or practices that the surrounding culture or society considers to be far outside the mainstream.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult
Joe, since over 33% of the world’s Christians are “born again” Christians clearly do not meet the criteria.
And Joe, there is a word for a person who ascribes derogatory attributes to a group of diverse people with no basis. It’s called a bigot. I’m ashamed that I agree with you on many issues that come up here.
And finally, you are correct that Christians are directed in the Bible to spread the good news. But it is a personal choice whether to believe.
Joe: I shouldn’t have called you a bigot. My bad. I should have assumed that you are just mis-informed about the subject.
Proceeding on that assumption, here is a link to some information about Christianity which I hope serves to quiet your fears about Christianity in general.http://www.christianity.com/WhatIsChristianity/
Outlander, Christians can be seen to be intolerant to those who disagree with them. Christians see Jesus as the savior of the world and will fully admit that they believe faith in Jesus is THE ONLY WAY to heaven. Some people would say that is a very arrogant belief system to claim that one’s God is the only true God and that all others are wrong, especially when the majority of the world’s people are not Christian.
You say that it’s a personal choice whether to believe, but it’s not a choice to Christian believers, the choice would be to either believe in Jesus or go to hell because you’re wrong? I notice this about many Christian right politicans, that they are very self-righteous and arrogant about their beliefs, they are so convinced that they are right. It’s not a stretch to think that this self-righteousness they have about politics comes from their Christian belief system. They don’t compromise with those with whom they disagree. Why would they compromise when God is on their side…
If Brownback wants to have a fighting chance to take Bush supporters, he’ll also have to claim a direct line to God. His “One Constituent” just isn’t going to cut it!
“Born Again” is a term that has been associated with evangelical renewal since the late 1960s, first in the United States and then later around the world. Associated perhaps initially with Jesus People and the Christian counterculture, born again came to refer to an intense conversion experience, and was increasingly used as a term to identify devout believers. By the mid 1970s, born again Christians were increasingly referred to in the mainstream media as part of the Born Again Movement. A 1976 book of that title by Watergate conspirator and convicted felon Charles Colson, describing his path to faith in conjunction with his criminal imprisonment, played a significant role in solidifying Born Again identity as a cultural construct in the U.S.
—————————
Looks like your religion fits exactly to the description you have as a cult.
“In religion and sociology, a cult is a cohesive group of people (often a relatively small and recently founded religious movement) devoted to beliefs or practices that the surrounding culture or society considers to be far outside the mainstream.”
1. Yours is a recently found religion. Founded around the late 1960’s.
2. You are the minority of the Christian sects. Although you boast 1/3 of the Christian membership, that is still the minority.
3. Many people consider your religion outside the mainstream.
4. Your beliefs and practices center around the “born again” movement. Such as music, peer groups, who you vote for, who you’re friends with, what science to believe in, where you shop at, what channels, movies, and books that are “safe” to watch or read.
5. Your movement disdains any other beliefs, religions, or creeds.
——————————-I don’t fear Christanity. I fear what people do in the name of Christianity. Timothy McVeigh was a “born again” cult member.
I don’t fear Islam. I fear what people do in the name of Islam. Islamic Terrorist.
There are wonderful Christians out there. These are the ones that mind their own business, practive a balance life, and try not to impose their faith in religion on other people.
You actually have a mission. It is your DUTY to convert people. You also put your God above anybody else, including your own family and yourself.
Religion kills millions of people a year. It is more dangerous than any disease or substance known to man.
Fanaticism exists in all cultures, and in all cultures is dangerous.
That picture alone should keep him out of office!!!!
He looks like a miracle preacher yelling for the checks.
Joe: My friend, you speak from willful ignorance and it is sad. You tell me my duty when you know nothing about it. You tell me what I believe and what I do with my life when, again, you know nothing about it.
Tell me Joe, is there any evidence that McVeigh blew up the building because he was a Christian? What happened in your life to set you against people of faith?
Joe, if you want to remain ignorant, that is up to you. But if you really want to learn about Christianity, I can point you in the right direction.
Hey Joe?
Cut to the chase with Outlander. Ask him if HE would vote for Sam Brownback for President! Oh, nevermind. I think I just did that.
See? you need to get that answer before you pay any attention to what Out posts.
Damn, like RD said, has anyone checked the temperature in hell today? Is the devil ice skating on Cedar Bluff? heheheheh
Joe Williams, I would ring all the bells this morning because that last was one damn fine post. Well thought out, well written, and right on target.
It should be reprinted as a letter to the editor, except values boy would be jealous and get his religious outrage on and throw a pissy hissy fit.
hee hee hee. Joe Williams is a WAY better editorial writer than values boy. Let that sink in for a moment…
Good on you for standing up to outlander’s outrageous denial that christianists are as much a cult as the moonies. And they do twice as much harm in the world.
Joe Williams, you get my respect and cheers today. You go boy!!!!
Terry Nichols was spared the Death penalty because of so called faith in Christ. The Big question did he convert before or after prison if it was before then he certainly had no problem in merging terrorism and murder with his faith. If it was after lets just say I don’t put much stock in prison conversions. If Nichols were truly Christian the very least he could do would be to apologize for his part in OKC, renounce violence, and give detailed info to the FBI on all unanswered OCK questions.
He will never see the light of day in the Prez race. His open borders policy of increasing immigration and doing away with national borders is insane.
But his precious name for the frozen embroys at least has provided fodder for the comedy circuit. They have been renamed “Kidsicles” much to everyones amusement.
This guy has zero chance. It’s McCain or Giuliani.
Joe…”1. Yours is a recently found religion. Founded around the late 1960’s.
2. You are the minority of the Christian sects. Although you boast 1/3 of the Christian membership, that is still the minority.
3. Many people consider your religion outside the mainstream.
4. Your beliefs and practices center around the “born again” movement. Such as music, peer groups, who you vote for, who you’re friends with, what science to believe in, where you shop at, what channels, movies, and books that are “safe” to watch or read.
5. Your movement disdains any other beliefs, religions, or creeds.”******************************
1) Nice try… but you are absolutely wrong. “Born again” is a quote from Jesus himself. If you don’t believe me, go read the account of Nicodemus (the pharisee, NOT the town in North Central Kansas).
2) If one has not taken on Christ, or been “born again”, how can they claim Christianity?
3)see 2.
4) Where do you get this stuff? Do not like-minded people generally share similar likes and dislikes?
5) Also, not all “born again” Christians such as myself have disdain for other beliefs, religions or creeds.
Didn’t Brownback convert from Born Again protestantism to Roman Catholicism? A lot of “born againers” don’t like Catholics I’ve read literature that claims that the pope is the Antichrist and so on. It will be interesting to see if places like Mississippi and Alabama go for a devout Catholic. It also might explain Sam’s tolerance for illegal immigrants who are mostly Catholic themselves
Check out the pic of Brownback.
It looks like he is imploring God for five of…..something.
Restrictive Constitutional amendments?
Minutes of evangelical prayer in public school?
Votes ouside of the kook right?
Out,Speaking as a non-christian, you guys have a history of violence toward nonbelievers in your cult that should get you a designation as the world’s largest street gang. Some of you claim to have seen the error of your ways, but if you’ll pardon me, I’ll wait and see. I haven’t seen anything yet that convinces me!
Jed: A little friendly advice. You are hurting your personal credibility by making silly claims. I forget, how many of your friends have been killed by or beaten up by rampaging Christians?
If you don’t stop writing stupid, moronic things, people will pay even less attention to you than they do already.
Out,Of my friends, seven. But speaking of credibility, you christans have a history of persecution that stretches back centuries, and victims in the millions. It’ll take a while to live that down!
Outlander,It appears to me that your responses to criticisms/concerns about politicalization of Christianity are increasingly ad hominen. Why would that be?
Do you believe that Christians have the right to impose their beliefs on the wider culture in this country via legislation?
If you answer “yes” – then I would say Joe’s concerns would be valid with respect to your agenda.
I think I am interpreting Joe’s position accurately. He will correct me, if I am not, I assume.
should be “ad hominem”
Yeah, he won’t answer questions put to him, DD.
Good question though.
Hey Joe,
I think ya got something good started here.
Outlander clearly gets more than a little defensive when pushed about pushing his faith. Telling? Whatsa matter Out? Aren’t we supposed to notice?
The evangelicals have been working under the table and behind the scenes for years. Now that they have some power, they aint afraid to throw their weight around. They tend to get indignant when called on it though. You know, like Outlander is doing?See, they don’t like when folks notice their agenda cause too much light on it might slow it down or stop it.
I hope.
DD: I don’t view it that way. I have seen ad hominem attacks, such as the one by Joe Williams and also by Jed- teller of wild stories, that I think had to be addressed. Frankly I get tired of the Christian bashing on this blog.
In regard to your question regarding legislation,I think that a democracy allows a person to vote their personal beliefs no matter where they come from. It is of no consequence if you form your beliefs from listening to the boys at the pool hall, a town hall meeting, a television commercial, or at a Bible study.
DD..”Do you believe that Christians have the right to impose their beliefs on the wider culture in this country via legislation?”
I’m not Out, but I can answer for all the Christians I know.. NO.
Christians do not have the right to impose their beliefs on others via legislation. But…. Christians DO have the right to participate in the political process, vote for whom they believe will represent their values, AND voice their opinions about what they feel are important issues.
I sat in on a service at Central Christian on Sunday, and that is EXACTLY what was preached to the parishoners. I heard nothing about who or what to vote for, but they were encouraged to get out and vote!
Outlander,
I agree with your point that a person can vote their beliefs – regardless of where they come from. I can’t think of a way of preventing that, can you?
The fundamental issue here, I think, is does a political Christian group have the right to impose their view of morality, etc. on to everyone else?
If your position is “yes we as Christians have an obligation to return our country to its Christian roots via legislation”, then I think you are in the group that Joe was raising his concerns about.
The Christians whom I respect the most are people who live their lives in accordance with their beliefs, but do not take the extra step of saying we need to have the secular world change to our beliefs.
In the first group above would be the pastors Wright and Fox. In the second are people who are not concerned with imposing their beliefs on others.
To me this is a fairly straight-forward distinction and I cannot think of how to explain any better.
I’m okay if you don’t want to answer the question of which of the two groups you lean towards. I think you could reasonably say it is none of our business.
I believe the distinction that I am trying to draw is where the controversy is.
… and let’s not even talk about special treatment under the tax laws. No other 501(c)3’s could get away with such blatent political activity. They would have to register as pacs. But not churches of any stripe.
Sam, good that the church you visited stayed within the tax law. But how do you explain the catholic church in Hill City that passed around PETITIONS against gay marriage to be sent to our congresscritters. DURING THE SERVICE!!!!!!
This information came from a 12 year old who attends that church and was chastized because she refused to sign it. Why?
Because she knows my friends and I and she thought it would be wrong to hurt nice people like us. She guiltily confessed to her mom that she couldnt in good conscience sign it. Her mom was very proud of her.
From the mouths of babes….
Kansassam:I would never say that Christians don’t have the right to participate in the political process. But, I fear that some Christians have the concern that they are discriminated against by the secular world and that this concern then leads them to think that it is their to duty to change the secular in any way possible (with honesty or not).
Is the distinction I am trying to draw in the above post to Outlander clear to you at all?
From what I have read about your volunteerism, I think you are one of the people who walk the walk instead of just talking the talk. I respect the foregoing, even if I don’t always agree with the walk itself.
Mrage said, “God isn’t Republican or Democrat”
You are correct. God is much further to the right than are Republicans.
No WONDER I don’t believe in him!
Folks, you need to be a little more selective about passing judgment on all Christians. We’re not all wild-eyed fundamentalist nutcases.As Christians, we’re called to “witness” our faith. That doesn’t mean cram it down your throat. It doesn’t mean taking an attitude that we’re better than you because we’re Christian. For me, being a Christian has made me a better person. I’d like to think it makes me a valuable member of my comunity, a good reflection on my family, and the kind of friend who is trusted and valued. I’m not trying to force my beliefs on anybody, but I won’t hesitate to define and discuss them if you’re open to them. I’ll certianly defend my beliefs when you trash them.
I don’t judge anybody on the basis of my faith. I leave that to a higher power. I don’t presume to know the mind of God.
Christians aren’t your enemy.
“I don’t presume to know the mind of God.”
I think there are some folks who make that presumption (whether the directly acknowledge it or not). Those folks are the ones I want to be able to identify – especially those who have a political agenda to change the secular world.
The more I think about it, I don’t believe there are distinct camps of Christians, but instead a continuum.
Live and let live Christiansvs.”We will legislate our beliefs and you will adhere to them or be relegated to a second class citizen status” – as being the two extreme end-points.
“passed around PETITIONS against gay marriage”
This would clearly be over the line.
What I hear about more, are statements like “We need officials who are pro-life, for the sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman, etc., etc. – and you know who to vote for.”
Not over the line, but the message is delivered.
I believe in God, whatever power created space, star systems, planets with the ability to support DNA growth.
This planet is magic and distinct so far as we know. There has to be some planet similar or a past humanity hasn’t learned about, how we got on this planet. Was life ever on other planets in this galaxy.
The Bible was created sharing a story of God made man and how lessons learned are supposed to show humanity the path to Heaven, Jesus returning.
I disagree with Jesus returning will be same time as end of days for humanity. Would we recognize the person…God on Larry King, Jay Leno, in the White House, doing the world tour but takes a long time visiting Rome..the Pope really nervous when that meeting would happen, its taking too long. God in Bethlehem Pennsylvania, never makes it to Israel.
Are humans judged by God someday, yes, I believe that. Souls aren’t infinite. I think souls of individuals are shared through history. There is only so many but can be used again and again.
We continue to fail being the perfect model as a human over and over.
I had a crazy dream long time ago..end of humanity is happening. One billion people left as representives of lives for all individuals that were ever created on this planet. 1 billion people in a village with thatch roof structures, building made with plants. No technology exists anymore.
My “character” went around the world with no oceans existing and low clouds hovering over the bare lands. Distance was achieved by scenes, no way to walk around the world by foot. But one place was open to the sunlight. Clouds focused the sun’s heat into a huge hole, maybe all the way to core of the planet.
Mother Earth trying to survive but growing colder with all life on the planet ending. Get back to village and saw 1 Billion people standing in line, one body was raised into the sky, a voice says FOR ALL THOSE…a name given to that soul representive of the people it was through history…that body then disappeared in a blink.
Should be a movie, its like that dream happened yesterday when it was decades ago.
Who hasn’t had a dream of magic happening.
Religions today are money related more than secular beliefs. It’s become corrupt process teaching faith and values. Criminal actions are happening in some churches, then they scream poverty when told to pay damage or laws don’t enter church’s somehow, they can hide crimes.
Not every church has these problems but the controlling agencies of neighborhood church’s knows dirty secrets and not sharing that with the police.
I question church, not the belief in God. I’m not out to make believers in others.
I don’t vote along religious lines or for those who politically overuse religion to get elected.
“The fundamental issue here, I think, is does a political Christian group have the right to impose their view of morality, etc. on to everyone else?”
DD: How many issues can be defined in those terms? How many issues are solely attempts by a religious group to impose their beliefs?It is effective rhetoric to say; “You can’t legislate morality.” But is legislation anything but using the government’s power to impose something on citizens? And supporters of a particular legislation will almost always be people of many and various motivations.
I know this didn’t answer your question. It is a question that I don’t think can be answered. I don’t think it occurs in pure form in the real world.
Their reasoning is that they have the right to impose their beliefs on the public, just like America has the right to impose democracy in the mid0east.
“How many issues are solely attempts by a religious group to impose their beliefs?”
A lot!
Gay marriage is exhibit A. There’s absolutely no justification except for Old Testament injunctions and of course Paul.
Paul, the Greek wannabe, infused all kinds of non-Christian pietism and asceticism into the Christian religion. Some of it is nothing short of anti-sex period.
“If you have to get married to keep from sinning, well then go ahead. But it’s better if you don’t get married like me.”
Gimme a break. “The flesh is evil and the spirit is pure,” and thus is neo-platonism syncretised into Christianity despite the lack of Gospel basis.
Legalized abortion is exhibit B.
Secularized societies (France, Japan) don’t have a problem with it. Catholic countries (Italy, Spain) do.
Anyone rememeber the scary speech he gave at a private talk during the 2004 republican convention, the one taht was leaked? I do and that scares me. Reed might have lost his bid in Georgia, but the religious right is taking over whether we like it or not
Hey get a clue libs:McCain and Guiliani BOTH will NEVER get the Republican Nomination.
I’m PRAYING that Brownback gets it.
Please let it be Brownback, Lord!
tooshea, you got that right. It’s because the religious right does the dirty work that Democrats don’t or can’t find the time for. The fanatics are taking over the precincts and the school boards and all the lower end of local government. And we just stand by and let it happen. How many city, county, and state offices go unopposed?
Wanna take back our government? Start at the local level.
Outlandish, be careful what you wish for.
“It is effective rhetoric to say; “You can’t legislate morality.” But is legislation anything but using the government’s power to impose something on citizens? And supporters of a particular legislation will almost always be people of many and various motivations.
“I know this didn’t answer your question. It is a question that I don’t think can be answered. I don’t think it occurs in pure form in the real world.”********************************************************************Everybody does it, so it is okay. Isn’t that what you guys cite as wrong with situational ethics and the democrats?
I suspect [emphasis on suspect] that there is a reason why you have been so profoundly evasive in answering, or dealing in any way, with those questions before you.
I think this evasion speaks volumes. But, I may be the only one. But then, paraphrasing Lennon (John): I may not be the only one.
Outlander I will leave you to Joe Williams. He’s got a better right to demand accountability and question your agenda then I do. It is his “side of the aisle” such as you have co-opted not mine.
But I will agree with DD.Who is NOT “the only one” by the way. Why does the religious right bristle and evade when “cornered”? What are you afraid we will see?
Wow. Seems I missed an uncommonly good thread. Notwithstanding Pauly’s attempt to turn it into a partisan debate, it was awesome. A lot of good posts.
Joe, you were eloquent and persuasive, though it was ultimately DD who came closest to my point of view. As we’ve given each other a lot of crap, just thought I should say that.
DD: I thought I did a reasonable good job explaining. Oh well. That’s what you get when those you are debating think they also get to do the judging.
So, anyway, I think Brownback is a good, well-intentioned man who lacks the qualifications to be president. Roughly equivilant in that regard to Hillary Clinton.
I think XXX has it right! There are plenty of Christians out there and many of them are better people because of their religion and it helps them personally. It is a good system for faith.
However, I don’t see how “speaking in tongues” makes you more Christian than the other Christians.
I don’t see people in the “born again” counterculture helping people. They find that poor people or homeless people are lazy and deserve what they got. How many homeless shelters or anything to help the poor are ran and funded by “born again” cultist?
Why is it ok the build multi-million dollar churches, larger than high schools and capital gaining enterprises, but not help the poor?
Why is it ok for Pastor Joe Wright and Terry Fox to live in $450,000 homes with brand new $60,000 Mercedes in their drive-ways, yet do nothing to help the community?
How come “born again” evangelical Christian cultist don’t build hospitals, housing, hunanitarian organizations like the Catholics, Mennonites, and other sects that respect other religions and differences?
Why is it that most people that attend these “born again” churches don’t go to worship, but to network for jobs and business contacts. You go in these churches and you’re handed more Real Estate and Insurance business cards than walking in to Wiegands and Farmers Insurance headquarters.
Why is it that people who get promoted at work places are the ones that attend the “born again” churches with the boss?
Why is it ok to talk about politics, endorse candidates and hand out yard signs and literatures of candidates at church?
Why is it ok the think that other people are going to hell or in pergatory if they are not “born again”?
Why is it ok to call me ignorant, moron, idiot, and stupid (not a very christian of you), if I question your society?
Why should I question religion, when they in fact don’t think that nobody should or they deserve it. I think that questioning religions and cultures should be a debate we all should talk about. If it is good for our society or not. It deserves critisim just like any other societial issues. You don’t get a pass. But I bet if you had the chance and if you could, you would pass laws that forbid people to criticise your religion. I also bet, if you could, force society to believe in “born again” Christianity. You don’t deny it and that is what you want.
Look! Believe what you want to believe. If it helps you, that’s great. It works for a lot of people. People need group think to function in our society. For every leader there are tons of followers.
I believe in a deity, but I don’t belong or believe in organized religion.
Joe..I would suggest you do a little research before you accuse the mega-churches and their pastors of not doing anything for the poor and homeless.The same thoughts bothered me as well, and although I am not comfortable in the big church setting, I have been dropping into Central to see what they do.What I found is an excellent outreach to the poor called “His Helping Hands” which hands out food, clothing and other items to the poor. There are groups travelling to New Orleans monthly to aid in the Katrina aftermath. There are medical missions worlwide… and … closest to my heart, I saw about 40 or 50 of my homeless friends there eating breakfast. I asked them what was up and I found that Central sends buses and picks them up on Sunday mornings.They are fed breakfast, then allowed to either attend church or just hang out. Then they are fed lunch and returned to where they came from.
I don’t know about you, but that can hardly be called “doing nothing for the poor” in my opinion.Many of the issues you mention are the very reasons that I too do not feel comfortable in many churches, but Joe, I have come to realize that it is usually those few “with an agenda” that do those things. I just searched until I found a group of like-minded, hands on people who are about doing the Lord’s work. I am much happier now, but I can still see the good that comes from large faith based charitable organizations. They have the funds to do alot more than I can accomplish, although I am working on that!
Joe: Well written post, but an awful lot of falsehood misrepresentations. Let’s examine your contentions:
Why is it ok the build multi-million dollar churches, larger than high schools and capital gaining enterprises, but not help the poor?
So churches don’t help the poor? I don’t have time to point you to every social assistance program that Christian churches have. Look at their websites under ministries. You might be surprised. Could they do more? Sure. So could I. So could you.
“Why is it ok for Pastor Joe Wright and Terry Fox to live in $450,000 homes with brand new $60,000 Mercedes in their drive-ways, yet do nothing to help the community?”
My pastor makes about $50,000 a year and lives in a modest house. What do you suppose the average minister of the Gospel makes? Yet the pressures and heartache that he lives with. He says that doing God’s work makes it worthwhile.
“Why is it ok the think that other people are going to hell or in pergatory if they are not “born again”?”
That’s what it says in the God’s word (the Bible). kansassam gave the cite earlier. I honestly don’t know though, because I’m not arrogant enough to think I know God’s mind or another’s heart. Do you Joe?
“Why is it ok to call me ignorant, moron, idiot, and stupid (not a very christian of you), if I question your society?”
I called you ignorant when you are talking about born again Christians, because it’s true. That comment stands. I also implied that you a bigot too, but later decided to take it back.
Why is it that most people that attend these “born again” churches don’t go to worship, but to network for jobs and business contacts.
I don’t know Joe. Is that true? How do you know their hearts? I would say that those that would attend for that motivation may not be true Christians.
Why is it ok to talk about politics, endorse candidates and hand out yard signs and literatures of candidates at church?
I don’t think it is. I have attendee several churches and never ran into it. And you don’t attend but seem to know all about it. Hmmm..
For the leftists, did you know that Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton and Al Gore are “born again” Christians. Why is it that isn’t mentioned in the media?
So finally Joe, I agree that Christianity should be be subject scrutiny and criticism. It is valuable feedback. All that I would ask is that you lose the prejudice and try to be fair.
“DD: I thought I did a reasonable good job explaining. Oh well. That’s what you get when those you are debating think they also get to do the judging.”
I did not think I was debating so much as asking questions — which were not answered. Your silence on those questions I believe says something. I don’t guess you have to agree.
Have to admit, Joe had some excellent questions and points. I say, be fair to him, before resorting to calling him a bigot. If you can, that is.
Thanks for the advice DD. Have a nice day.
You, too.
“The more I think about it, I don’t believe there are distinct camps of Christians, but instead a continuum.
Live and let live Christiansvs.”We will legislate our beliefs and you will adhere to them or be relegated to a second class citizen status” – as being the two extreme end-points.”
Almost dead-on, DD, but I would make one amendment: “We will legislate our beliefs and you will adhere to them AND be relegated to second class citizen status. OR ELSE.”
I think the “or, else” part is what is unknown. But it concerns me, too.
I’ve recommeded this book on this blog before. Time to do it again.
http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2006/05/12/goldberg/index_np.html
Out,It wasn’t that long ago that the Iranian government arrested Ba’Hai’s and put guns to their heads and offered them the choice of converting to Islam or death. You christians have a history of periodically doing the same thing, and often not even offering the choice when you go on rampages against nonbelievers and heretics.Case in point: Constantine’s slaughter of 200,000 pagan Gauls for the glory of Jesus.Case in point: the burning of over 200,000 women accused of witchcraft.Case in point: the slaughter of several hundred thousand harmless Cathars.Case in point: the slaughter of the Inca because Atalhualpa had no idea what a bible was, and tossed it on the floor.Case in point: 16th century Catholics sold protestants into slavery, and vice versa.Case in point: Kill a Commie for Christ bumper stickers.Case in point: the mass murder of Muslims by christian Serbs.And that’s just the highlights!Some of your christian spokespeople are not all that far from doing it all again, and right here in the US of A! As an outspoken non-christian, I’ve been told by several of you that I’m high on their lists of people that ought to be shot.I’m not a christian, and have no desire to be, and it is disturbing to me to have christians pass laws that basically say I have to pretend to be christian, and live according to your values. And if I refuse?
You seriously need to seek help with your paranoia.
Sure- from a christian counsellor, no doubt!
Jed…Facts are facts and they can’t be changed, but I don’t know many Christians that would not denounce those events as wrong and a mistake.Besides, events taken out of context of world history are only valuable if compared to the rest of history: How many folks in history have been killed by Non-Christians? How many Christians have been slaughtered by non-Christians? Should we start with Nero who burned Christians to light his gardens? How about Somalia where Christians are murdered? Fact is.. people have killed people for generations… it doesn’t make Christianity wrong.
When you speak of Christian spokespeople, I don’t know who you are talking about, but if they are proposing those things, they are NOT speaking for ME. Neither is anyone who says you should be shot Jed. From a list of past posts you do some good work in the community Jed, and all any Christian should expect from you is to obey the laws of your government. The rules/laws of Christians do not apply to you. (unless it is a law legislated by the secular government).
—–
It is hard work being a persecuted majority. Poor babies.
KFG…If you want to pursue the persecuted majority angle, then perhaps you would like to repeal all legislation protecting WOMEN.After all, they are a majority in this country…
Being a majority should not make one open game for persecution… don’t you agree?
Sam,You do good work too, and I respect you, but what is actually a minority of christians is working hard, and successfully, and often by deception, to elect their people, pass their laws, appoint their judges, and reorder our culture to their benefit; in short, to eventually form a theocracy in this country. They have said as much!Since the vast majority of christians have remained silent, or supported various parts of their agenda, I can only assume that christianity is being hijacked with the permission of most churches. One day, the less rigid churches are going to find themselves required to toe the reactionary line or perish. Those of you who don’t see the bible as a blueprint for political domination and oppression need to get over your complacency fast!
Dittos, Jed.
Good points Jed.
SOME of that is already happening in a form.
Terry Fox and Joe Wright ROUTINELY advise listeners to their radio show to leave churches that don’t preach a “biblical world view” and find one that does. Listen not TOO long and you figure out that a “biblical world view” is cover talk for “politically active”. So the idea of “regulating” faith is already well under way. It’s just not a matter of legislation……yet.
Brownback for President? What a depressing thought. But to get his campaign off on the right foot he needs a slogan. How about:
Leave No Frozen Embryo Behind.
Jed…I’m not sure I would call it complacency. You know how difficult it is to move a bureaucracy.It is much easier to step away and do what you think is right, rather than stepping up and fighting what you think is wrong.I have faith that our Constitution will protect us from any one group grabbing total control, but if I’m wrong, I have faith that the American spirit of freedom will overcome.
Sam,I have faith too, but we won’t overcome them without the massive bloodshed that all theocracies begin and end in. Better to put a stop to them before they get that far, and they are nearer to it every day!
One more suggestion for the Brownback for President Campaign. This is a bit premature. But the next GOP convention, instead of using a handful of token black kids like last time. Remember that? Remember how GOP brought out black kids on stage in front of a sea of rich white executive politicians all making hundred thousand plus with the then Bush rolling out his No Child Left Behind Campaign. No one knows lip service and prop better than GOP.
Well this time instead they can roll out carts of frozen embryos, and the same rich white republicans and the christian right will just, lets just say it will be hard to top. Then Sam can give another first grade presentation on frozen embryos.
It will be big for the embryo vote. But go at it slow Sam. Before you know it they will be demanding government help….wanting better teachers, help with tuition, god forbid they want assistance with school lunch program.
That’s when Sam will get all nervous and start talking big government.
cin, why not have them wheel out a few brain dead head injury victims?Oh, that’s right, even Dr. Frisk came out in favor of stem cell research!Nevermind.
Tracy it is about there speed. To be honest, nothing from this group would surprise me.
From Frist to Brownback. It is nonstop lip service and nonstop hate, all in the name of god.
Some of the stuff coming from Brownback is so heartless and so bizarre. He is a lunatic.
Then the ones that like to call themselves christian, will line up by the zillions to vote for him just to stop abortion. Doesn’t matter one bit that their party turns their back on people in need daily not only in our country but around the globe. Kids people in real need dying from diseases, starvation, war brought on by us even willing to lie to start it.
No one is more ungod like than Sam Brownback. Nothing more disgusting than a man that claims to be a christian. Yet never a harsh word for a president or cabinet that leave children and seniors dying without water in the streets of New Orleans. There dozens of examples of things like this, just over the years christian right and the Brownback types allow the unthinkable happen. Then when it serves them, when it is convenient, or when they don’t feel great about the kind of person they are. They use god.GOD is merely a prop to them. Just like the children they used at the GOP convention.
Yep, God in a (GOP) box.They parade him(her) around when thier numbers get low.Good one cin, come back and blog with us.
Well, enough from me for now.You know, gotta go watch the dog take a shit again.Blog ya’ tommorrow.
Thanks Tracy. I need to get busy too.
Nice to know there are people that get it….
Brownback is a hypocrite! This jerk in two different responses indicated that it was perfectly alright for deceptive advertising for women services act (HR 5052) to occur since “no gift is more precious than life.” I have no doubt that if this bill makes it to the senate he will vote against it and allow deceptive advertising when it comes to former abortion clinics now owned by pro-life advocates. Deceptive advertising is a federal crime under law.Then being the Christian he thinks he is supporting the murdering of Palestinians and Lebanese, basically, once you are born it is alright to have you murdered by a terrorist state or to be used as cannon fodder in a war of aggression. If Brownback is such a christian has he wants others to believe he would find this killing unacceptable espeically those of the innocent civilians and children. But then again he probably gets down on his knees in front of Falwell and other leaders of the extreme christian right and pays homage in hopes of getting their votes. That is what it is all about.Brownback should be thrown bodily out of the office he occupies since he does not represent the people of kansas or America.
http://www.insider-magazine.com/ChristianMafia.htm
All the legislation protecting women? Like what? Abortion laws? Seems like the christianists want them changed. Rape laws? ditto
Employment equality? Hmmmm….
I thought those laws applied to ALL americans, not just women.
Please let me know what laws are providing special priveleges for women. I need the leg up.
That has GOT to be the lamest reply to “persecuted majority” I have ever heard.
It really is hard being the majority religion and trying to DOMINATE everyone else. Maybe you dont do it sam, I truely believe you do not. But if you can look at your christian breatheren and say THEY dont, you have better denial skills than I.
Funny, the defenders of the faith here just react and dont listen to the near unanimous complaints of the other side. Even some on their side.
Being infalliable has its advantages I guess.
KFG…Those laws DO apply to ALL Americans… including Christians. I don’t think I said that women get “special” privileges..Christians were NOT the majority when they were slaughtered for their faith in the past. It really matters not who was the majority in the context of killing…. It has not discriminated because of sex, color, creed, orientation, or anything else. Unfortunately it has been freely given to all!
As for your infallible comment, that was a cheap shot, completely untrue as you well know, and not worth a response.
so…then tell me what laws you are talking about that “protect” women?
…and no, I dont know that the infalliable comment is untrue. Seems to me that the christianist spokespersons take that position all the time.
I didnt hear pat say “I could be wrong, but gays are responsible for katrina”. I didnt hear Dobson saying “I could be wrong, but gays are destroying straight marriage”.
Nope. They had the word from god.
I dont ever think I have heard the words “I could be wrong” come from ANY christian spokesperson.
Maybe they doesnt speak for you sam, but they are shouting down the sane ones of your type. It is PAT’s message that is getting through, not yours.
And judging from the posts here, I am not the only one who thinks so. Seems this dismal view of christians in general and evangelicals in particular are more widely held than most of you believe.
There is a saying that “if you are having the same problem with ‘everyone’ than maybe ‘everyone’ isnt the problem. Maybe the problem is you.”
Words for christians to ponder. If so many are having problems with the christianists, maybe it isnt the “so many” that are the problem.
I know christians dont care much for public opinion (except at the polls) but it sure seems to be a hard row to hoe to get converts.
Joe,Big deal. The early church started out as a cult of Judaism in the first century. Muhammed and his followers started out as a cult as well. Both the Christians of the Roman Empire were seen as estranged from society and at odds with its key interests which is that “self” is everything. Everything that the old pagan Roman Empire was all about was glorifying themselves, enjoying the fruits of life and putting themselves first no matter who you had to step on to get to the top, it was considered normal in Roman society to serve yourself over others, to make a god out of yourself. (Look at all the intrigue, backstabbing and feuds of the various caesars of Rome and the politicians in the Roman Senate and you’ll know just what I’m talking about) Surely Joe Williams, those irritable Christians that didn’t fit into this mindset were considered “radicals” “cultists” “enemies of the state” and the like. Surely they were butchered, sold into slavery, fed to lions, watched as their wives and daughters were gored to death by bulls after being forced to have sex with the animals in the Coliseum. But of course you know everything about Christian history Joe Williams! You know those pesky irritable Christians deserved that didn’t they Joe? Since they were cultists and radicals, they believed that it is better to look out for your fellow man rather than look out for Number One! HOW DARE THEY, JOE!? You know what? I see a startling resemblance between Ancient pagan Rome and AMERICA of today! This culture glorifies the “self” just like the pagan Romans of antiquity Joe. Be not surprised if history repeats itself Joe. Where are those proud and insolent Romans of old who slaughtered so many of our brothers and sisters Joe!? Tell me, are they as mighty today as we are? Has the Lord not taken his vengeance on them cutting them off and making them an example of what happens when you fuck with God’s people? It is we who have taken over Rome, Joe. See how the Lord takes care of us? That’s protection that all the money in the world can’t buy Joe. Who’s protecting you?
KFG,History has shown, and historians will attest to the fact that Christianity has NEVER been in sync with the popular culture. Yet after 2,000 years of our existence, we have outlived all of those that have persecuted and ridiculed us. Don’t you think it odd, that if we were so universally hated we would still be around for over two millenia!? Of course you believe that we are insidiously cunning and are able to survive for such a long time. You make predictions of our fall and wish us to be cast out from society. However, KFG, you surely aren’t the first person who has predicted that Christianity would be no more… You certainly weren’t the first of the many fools we have proved wrong.
Farm Gal,”I know christians dont care much for public opinion….”Oh, they care about public opinion when the polls agree with them, eg. gay rights, where they assert the right of a majority to do anything they want to a minority, but when the polls are against them, as in the abortion issue, they claim the right of a minority to persecute the majority, even to the point of shooting those who disagree with them! Talk about a bunch of hypocrites wanting to have it both ways…..!