Some not-so-fun facts noted by New York Times columnist Maureen Dowd this week, in the wake of the deaths in Baghdad of a CBS soundman and cameraman and the critical injury of CBS correspondent Kimberly Dozier (in photo): 71 journalists have been killed in Iraq, more than the number killed in Vietnam or World War II. And the Iraq war is “now six months short of the United States involvement in World War II.”
To those who complain about media’s refusal to report Iraq’s good news, Dowd recounts what CBS correspondent Lara Logan recently told CNN: that the U.S. military rejects her pitches for upbeat stories, saying, “Oh, sorry, we can’t take you to that school project, because if you put that on TV, they’re going to be attacked, the teachers are going to be killed, the children might be the victims of attack. Oh, sorry, we can’t show this reconstruction project because then that’s going to expose it to sabotage.”
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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120 Comments
Well, at least you are now admitting that there is reconstruction and there are good things being done…
I think it a bit skewed to measure this war by the number of war reporters killed though.
Completely different situations.
Nathan, true. Let’s hear data on how many Iraqi women, elderly and children have been killed and crippled.
Because they report the news and Bush happens to make it bad?
Any chance the concept of “embedding reporters” in combat units has something to do with the high number of casualties?
Nawwww….just a coincidence.
heartlander,This group has a data base, and a collection method whereby they estimate the loss of civilian lives in Iraq.
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/
I believe they are reputable. The estimate at this time that between 38K and 42K Iraqi civilian lives have been lost since the start of the U.S. invasion.
Thanks DD. We have disagreements. But I cherish YOU.
Nathan, I think many times you mistake others disgust with American politics for hatred of this country.The overwhelming digust is because people do love this country and want the best for it.
I have a son in the Army. Do I want him to protect Americans’ freedom. Absolutely. Do I want him used as a disposable pawn in the Oil Wars, which have zero to do with freedom, but everything to do about some capitalists enriching and empowering themselves? Absolutely not.
If we multiply Iraqi civilian deaths by 5 to estimate severely injured and crippled, that’s close to 1% of the Iraqi population. So, consider 1 million Americans killed, and 2.5 million crippled and injured by an enemy. Would we go into all out war? I think so. This is why the war in the middle east cannot be won. It is just really BAD BAD NEWS.
“Military men are dumb, stupid animals to be used as pawns for foreign policy.”– Henry A. Kissinger
Viva la Raza Blanco!!!
But Henry is a brother whitey!
With friends like Ian – who needs enemies?
Ian you kitsch, you make an ipish.
Yo girl y u b trippin’? I jus b keepin it reel an i ain’t killed nobody, lately!
peace out!
I’m sure there’s SOME good news out of Iraq. It’s just that it’s so outweighed by the bad news.
Here’s some good news:130,000 American troops didn’t die today.
Sheesh!
I would like to see our troops come home as much as anyone, but is withdrawal something we can do? If we withdraw from Iraq the contry will devolve further into an all out civil war. Having that much instability in the middle east is contrary to the world’s oil interests and economy. Our staying there at best delays Iraqis’ taking responsibility for their government, and at worst fuels hatred and atttacks. It is one fine mess we are in and I don’t see a reasonable way out of it.
Step 1. Admit the BushBots are powerless over Iraqi events
Step 2. Come to believe someone else can do a better job.
Step 3. Let someone else take over …
Step 1: Continue supporting the formation of government and reconstruction efforts in Iraq. While dragging all the whiney liberal nay sayers kicking and screaming…
Step 2: Despite the left wing badgering and harassing and efforts to undermine the process continue to press forward.
Step 3: Regardless of how much liberals complain and whine about doing a better job, they are not actually saying what that is. Keep pressing forward with the progress you are making. Pay no attention to the crying from the left. No matter what you do or how good or bad it is it will be the same from them, more crying.
WAKE UP NATHAN!!
This war was manipulated, and Pres. Bush/Cheney are profiting from it.
Do you really support men dying to line the Pockets of Haliburton and Carlyle? Trust me its true.
I hope you wake up one day and realize how inhumane war is.
Gary C.
What is your argument here?
I have said nothing regarding the humanity or lack of in war.
I agree that war is very inhumane. War is an awful thing. I have been trying to convey that to Ben everytime he brings up some accident or mishap that happens.
“Do you really support men dying to line the Pockets of Haliburton and Carlyle?”
Of course not. Who would? I don’t accept the premise that this is what is happening though.
“Trust me its true.”
Trust you? Why? You have done nothing to earm my trust and I have no information significant enough to convince me of the things you are saying.
“This war was manipulated,”
I disagree. Manipulation relies on lies and deciet. Neither of which I believe our President to have done.
“and Pres. Bush/Cheney are profiting from it.”
How are they profiting from it?
1. Keep doing all the wrong things hoping that this time the results will be different.
2. Complain bitterly whenever anyone points out the failures of your wrong-headed approach.
3. Brand those who are correct on your foolishness as being whiney and unpatriotic.
Regardless of my view of the war, I would really like to see some proof of the claim how Bush and Cheney PROFIT from it.
Let’s see some proof of that one, ok?
Oh, I forgot …
4-12. DENY DENY DENY DENY DENY DENY DENY DENY DENY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Also Ben, add : people that don’t make mistakes, can’t be expected to learn from them.
Ben,Is this latter one, the “Texas three-step”?
I am getting 20% of the profits that Bush and Cheney are making from the war to keep quiet.
And like many other blog threads they simply turn into short one liners with no substance with the liberals patting themselves and each other on the back for looking so smart….
Bad news = rating, Rating, RATINGS!
I believe I can find a link, but Dick Cheney made I think more than 5, but less than 10 million dollars this past tax year from his investments in Haliburton. To his credit, he gave away almost all of the money to various charities.
Let me see if I can find a link.
and snickering at the BushBots for being so dumb!
I think that just making Route Irish safe would be a good first step toward creating the conditions under which press coverage of the jawdroppingly staggering strategic blunder otherwise known as Iraq II could begin to improve.Consider: if Dugan north to Kellogg were a killing field half as lethal as Route Irish, do you think those responsible for law and order in southcentral Kansas would benefit or suffer in the press?
I read in the paper today that over 4,000 Iraqis Have lost their lives so far THIS YEAR. It’s hard to feel good about any “progress” in Iraq when so many who have no choice are losing their lives,and now more reports of abuse by American soldiers. It’s hard to be optimistic when there is still so much bad news.
From the Washington Post:**********************************The Cheneys owed $529,636 in federal taxes on taxable income of $1,961,157 in 2005, according to their tax return, also released by the White House. Their overall income included the vice president’s annual salary of $205,031 and $211,465 in deferred compensation from Halliburton Co., the Texas-based energy services firm and defense contractor that he headed until August 2000. Before leaving Halliburton, a large military contractor in Iraq, Cheney chose to defer his 1999 salary as chief executive and have it paid to him, with interest, in fixed annual installments over five years after his retirement from the company.
Because the Cheneys exercised stock options and earned royalties from books written by Lynne Cheney last year, the couple’s adjusted gross income for 2005 was $8,819,006. They donated much of the money from those sources — about $6.9 million — to charitable organizations.**********************************I stand corrected, whether the stock options involved the Haliburton company is not knowable by this article and I am assuming that Cheney doesn’t make his investment portfolio public – as is his right, of course.
The whole article here:http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/14/AR2006041401481.html
Of course, the root cause of the president’s bad press in Iraq comes from something far more profound: President Bush’s incompetence.
http://time.blogs.com/daily_dish/2006/06/the_great_parad.html
“It has been there from the start and it still, frankly, confounds me. We were told by the president that the Iraq war was the critical battle in the war on terror, an effort of enormous stakes that we couldn’t possibly lose. And then he went to war with half the troops necessary to win, with no plan for the aftermath, and refused to budge even when this became obvious to anyone with eyes and a brain. He says there is no greater friend or supporter of the troops, yet he sent them to do an impossible task, with insufficient numbers or support or even armor to accomplish the job. He said we face the equivalent of the Third World War and yet he has done nothing to increase the size of the military to meet the task. He said the invasion was to advance the principles of freedom and democracy, and yet he immediately abandoned those principles in our detention policy and has done more damage to the moral standing of the United States than anyone since the Vietnam war. He says he wants to build democracy, and yet he has gutted reconstruction funds, and withdrawn support for building democratic institutions. He said he will keep troops there until the job is done, and yet sustains a policy to draw down the troops as soon as possible.
There has always been a military solution to Iraq. There still is, as Fred Kagan recently showed in a long article in the Weekly Standard. It just required resources to achieve it, to pacify a post-totalitarian society, provide order and the context in which politics can happen. The American public would have approved the resources necessary, and made sacrifices if asked. And yet Bush has deliberately and by conscious choice allowed anarchy and terror to decimate Iraqi civil society. None of this helps the war; and none of it helps him. There are many times when I am simply baffled by the whole farce. Is he this stupid? Is he this blind? Or was this never a serious venture? Did Cheney and Rumsfeld never want to build a democracy in Iraq, just reduce it to rubble and chaos, while ensuring that Saddam could get no WMDs? Even now, I have no idea. But something here doesn’t add up. Incompetence doesn’t quite capture the enormity of the failure or the incoherence of the project. And so we stagger on, desperate for hope, but forced to confront the worst-managed war since Vietnam. Except the stakes are far, far higher than Vietnam. And the consequences of failure close to existential. I know that in part because Bush keeps telling us. Is he lying? Or is he just drowning in a job that he is simply unable to do?”–Andrew Sullivan, conservative
About the above, you don’t suppose Lynne Cheney’s books could be account for much of the difference between the 1.9 and 8.8 million dollar figures. Does anybody know what her books are about?
I think this is the Weekly Standard article, flike’s source mentions above:
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/119jnign.asp
I’m with DD. How does somebody make that much royalities on a book that didn’t really sell much. Unless the RNC bought a bunch of copies, just like the DNC did with Hiliary’s book.
“Unless the RNC bought a bunch of copies, just like the DNC did with Hiliary’s book.”
I hadn’t heard that before, Joe. But, I’m thinking it had to be stock options rather than Lynne’s books that accounted for most of the earnings.
I would sure like someday to well off enough to donate 6.9 million to charities in a single year.
Ahmadinejad calls Bush and tells him: “President Bush, I called you because I had a dream.”
Bush: “What was the dream about, Ahmadinejad?”
Ahmadinejad: “I dreamt that USA was rebuilt and on the top of each house there was a flag.”
Bush: “And what was written on the flag?”
Ahmadinejad: “Allah is big, Allah is great!!!”
Bush: “You know what Ahmadinejad, it’s good that you called because I had a dream too. In my dream Teheran was rebuilt and on the top of each building there was a flag too.”
Ahmadinejad: “What was written on the flags?”
Bush: “I don’t know, I can’t read Hebrew!!!!”
Nathan,
Well lets see. Its common knowledge that Cheney owns stock in Haliburton, and it has risen since he became VP.
Bush’s Dad works for Carlyle Defense and Im pretty sure W and the rest of his family will get the riches when he passes on.
Downing street memo, Intelligence fixing, Cheneys vist to the Pentagon, Media Behavoir before the war, Paul O’neils revelation that Bush wanted Iraq way back in 2001 before 9/11.
Thats the manipulation that nobody seems to talk about.
And No I didnt need Michael Moore to point this out for me. I figured it out on my own.
Dont trust me if you want, but the facts are out there.
Doesn’t Michael Moore own Haliburton stock?
A belated “welcome to the fray Gary C. What you need to know is that Nathan has his own facts.
Something I’ve not seen here yet? Arguements are presented that there is “good news” to cover. (Schools, new construction etc) but that it is dangerous to allow reporting on them as it may make them subject to attack.
Well that’s pretty good!
“We are succeeding and doing good, but if we show you, people could get hurt!”
Maybe there isn’t any “improvement” at all buy just excuses?
Gary C,
Ok, yeah, there might be some “profit” made in stock people own.
What that proves? I don’t know.
I suppose that makes thousands others guilty too, because they all make profit from companies involved in production of things used in war…
“Downing street memo”
Which proves what?
“Intelligence fixing”
This is not proof. It is yet antoher statement without facts.
“Cheneys vist to the Pentagon”
Which proves what?
“Media Behavoir before the war”
Which proves what?
“Paul O’neils revelation that Bush wanted Iraq way back in 2001 before 9/11.”
I hate to break it to you, but there have been plans and talks of getting Iraq since the first gulf war.
Ahh yes the FIRST gulf war. Founded in phony reasons just as the second. Prosecuted by bush the elder to an inconclusive but manageable conclusion.
What was the cost in Clintons policy of containment of Saddam in lives and treasure? Significantly less than the son trying to vindicate/show up/avenge the father!
Ahh but containment contains cost. It does not require reconstruction or the privately lucrative contracts to feed, clothe, house, and protect boots on the ground.
JR,
“Founded in phony reasons just as the second.”
What were the phony reasons JR?
“Prosecuted by bush the elder to an inconclusive but manageable conclusion.”
And why was that?
“Significantly less than the son trying to vindicate/show up/avenge the father!”
Really JR, do you have any proof that this is what Bush was doing? How can you know this to be true? Besides pulling it straight from your rear end?
“And like many other blog threads they simply turn into short one liners with no substance with the liberals patting themselves and each other on the back for looking so smart….”
You know Nathan, a sense of humor is not necessarily a bad thing. It can help one cope with difficulties and stress. You should look into developing one, if you ask me. But since you didn’t, that advice is free.
DD,
Thank you for the advice. I will take it into account in the future.
Nathan,I’m telling you, it couldn’t hurt.
Nathan,
Those facts prove alot of things. They prove that Bush had an agenda to go to Iraq and quite possibly make him and the people around him profit from it.
Lots of deceit to the American public in my opinion.
They have done a very immoral act and I dont believe they should go around parading themselves as christians because of their actions.
Gary C.,Take it easy on Nathan, his dad is at a dog competition in Nebraska and won’t be back for a while. Nathan can hold his own, though.
The truth is, we don’t know about Cheney’s direct compensation from Haliburton. And unless the House is re-taken by Democrats and we are dragged through massive hearings and investigations we may never know.
I think Hank and Nathan are decent Christian men. I think the party now in the majority has used them in ways that are less than decent, but that is a subject for another blog.
I sure wish I knew a simple solution for this Iraq problem our country now has. I am thinking that if there was a simple solution, we (short attention span, ADD, Americans) would have demanded its implementation by now.
Regards,DD
You are getting defensive Nathan. Did I hit a nerve?
The “infants yanked from incubators in Kuwait by Iraqi troops” that so fueled the “be vewwy quiet we are hunting Iwaquis” sentiment that fueled the first Gulf war has long ago been discredited.
Bush the elder did not march on Baghdad to his unfair and everlasting discredit probably because he knew that this would de-stabilize the entire region. His son had no such concerns and it could be argued, stood to gain from them.
That bush the younger and his staff of bush the elder former staffers wanted war with Iraq is well established. I cite Rumsfelds take that there were no hard targets in Afghanistan and a need to shift attention to Iraq.
Nathan? I do not wish to be unfair. But I am beginning to think that you like this war. I am aware that you have been and will soon again be deployed there. Can I inquire as to your function? Please know there is no inference here. But I am beginning to think you are wishing for some trigger time. If that is unfair or mistaken I apologize in advance. But I think you would acknowledge that even if this is not your motivation there are those who do serve that do so for the chance.
JR,Clearly GHWBush knew taking out Saddam was a bad idea, because of the problem of “who would replace him?” He therefore opted for containment, which worked pretty well for Iraq; and before that, the Soviet Union.
We’ve obviously had some different ideas in the 21st century. How well have these worked out? Present data and time will tell.
“How well have these worked out? Present data and time will tell.”
I’ll let you have a peek at the conclusion I’ve reached: not very well.
Count me among those who blamed Bush the elder for not “finishing” the job DD. Clearly he was wiser than me….and a lot of people…. and his own son.
I still have the sneaking suspicion that it is precisely that, an attempt to redeem “Poppy” that caused bush the younger to go so wrong and in doing so out of emotion, completely ignore his fathers wisdom.
It’s worked out well for the defense and reconstruction contractors DD. It has also worked fairly well as a diversion from domestic failure and excuse for executive accumulation of power. All at only the cost in poll numbers for a man who will never run for anything again.
I expect G. Bush to be heavily protected for the rest of his life.
As I am sure he will not be a very popular person once he leaves office.
I cant wait, because when he was gone it will feel like a monkey off our back.
Shame on him for turning this country upside down. Shame, Shame, Shame.
Lynn Cheney wrote a lesbian romance many years ago, when that sort of thing wasn’t done much. (No offense intended to anyone by that.) I do think she’s written a few others, mostly political since then. As far as I know, that first book is no longer in print, so it must be subsequent books that earned her the money.
By her name alone, she would be able to get a HUGE advance on a book, even if the book was poorly written, and I doubt any were.
Ever gone to the bookstore and noticed how many hardcover books by big names eventually end up in the bargain bin? They rarely earn out their advance or even come close to it. I’m not talking Stephen King or John Grisham, I’m talking some Hollywood or D.C. sort sportsworld “star”, who probably didn’t actually write a single word. The rest of us who publish are making up for those non-earned out advances and keeping those publishing companies afloat.
Sorry for the mini-rant. It’s a rat race out there, and there’s nothing fair about it.
What was this one about?Open thread?Halliburton?
New York Times:
Iraqi Accuses U.S. of ‘Daily’ Attacks Against CiviliansBy RICHARD A. OPPEL Jr.Published: June 2, 2006The prime minister of Iraq said that U.S. troops crush civilians “with their vehicles and kill them just on suspicion.”
http://www.nytimes.com/glogin?URI=http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/02/world/middleeast/02iraq.html&OQ=_rQ3D1Q26thQ26emcQ3Dth&OP=45120b83Q2FQ23dKCQ23RQ24u,1Q24Q246Q7DQ23Q7DWWQ7BQ23WQ7BQ23WQ7DQ23dQ241FRQ23UgRRFKKe,6Q23WQ7Dg1eTQ2A56UF
Yet another reason we should leave.
Thank God president Bush saves us from the misery of having to see pictures of soldiers coffins. It is always gut wrenching to see the actual pictures of the flags draped on the hundreds of coffins of dead soldiers loaded in cargo planes for their flight home.I for one, are very glad Mr. Bush banned the press from taking these photographs!
Nathan claims that we’re helping to set up a stable democracy in Iraq.
Nathan, what are the positions of the major Iraqi parties on continued US occupation?
Can you tell us that?
Because what I heard is they are all against it.
SO, if you believe in democracy, the first thing the US would have to do to respect Iraqi democracy would be to leave.
BushCo and you conservatives prefer to have CONTROL not democracy–you proved it when you overthrew the democratically elected prime minister of Iran and re-instituted the Shah (King), in Chile when Nixon-Kissinger knocked off Allende and his loyal guard and installed Pinochet, in Nicaragua where the US backed a covert war against the duly-elected Sandanistas, and now you want to do the same thing in Venezula against twice elected Hugo Chavez.
You and your ilk, don’t believe in democracy, unless it’s a way to legitimatize your power.
You’re the worst kind of UN-AMERICAN.
Meanwhile …
“U.S. accused in more Iraq civilian deathsKIM GAMELAssociated PressBAGHDAD, Iraq – A third set of allegations that U.S. troops have deliberately killed civilians is fueling a furor in Iraq and drawing strong condemnations from government and human rights officials.
“It looks like the killing of Iraqi civilians is becoming a daily phenomenon,” the chairman of the Iraqi Human Rights Association, Muayed al-Anbaki, said Friday after video ran on television of children and adults slain in a raid in Ishaqi in March.
Al-Anbaki’s comments came a day after Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki upbraided the U.S. military over allegations that Marines killed two dozen unarmed civilians in Haditha, calling it “a horrible crime.” They were his strongest public comments on the subject since his government was sworn in last month.”
http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/breaking_news/14725384.htm
““After they handcuffed them, they shot them dead. Later, they struck the house with their planes. They wanted to hide the evidence. Even a 6-month-old infant was killed. Even the cows were killed too,” he said.
The video included shots of the bodies of five children and two men wrapped in blankets.
Other video showed the bodies of three children in the back of a pickup truck that took them to the hospital in Tikrit, Saddam Hussein’s former hometown.”
http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?idq=/ff/story/0001%2F20060602%2F1014829443.htm&sc=1107&photoid=20060315BAG111&floc=NW_1-T
Okay, sure, Ben but you’re ignoring the school that got painted . . .
“diversion from domestic failure”
JR, do you mean the failures that the liberal politicians and media have fought tooth and nail every step of the way? The ones that lead to 4.6% unemployment? The ones that lead to greater tax revenues than at any other time in the least 25 years?
May God smite us with more domestic failures!!
Don,
In JR’s little world where he is as not as well off as he would like, it proves that the economy must be bad.
Ah yes, the whole equal results, not equal opportunity thing. Or personal responsibility… Good point!
Sadly it is the truth.
The housing market is better than ever. More people are buying homes, unemployment is down, the economy is up…
But it must be bad because it is Bush in charge!
More people are buying homes, but foreclosures have reached a record high.
Unemployment is down, but not all unemployed are counted, and many employed are hideously under-employed. Bush can’t even keep up with the number of new jobs that must be created each month to keep things level. He STILL hasn’t recovered the record number of jobs that have been lost in the past 3-4 years.
And let’s not forget that those who have had to resort to joining the military are considered employed. And many military families are forced to apply for Government Assistance. You know, the stuff you cons hate, like food stamps and welfare. But, hey, they ARE employed, right?
Oh, yeah, things are definitely better. When you marry and have children, Nathan, and they’re adults, how will you explain the killer taxes they’ll be paying to make up Bush’s deficit? Oh, wait, I know. You’ll say it’s the Democrats’ fault.
Well said RD. I don’t need to add to that.
Ewwww Don is back? Ok who flipped over a rock?
Don? Nathan? I’ wondering.
There were at least a half dozen posts since the one of mine you are attacking. Among the issues they include are discovery of more possilble atrocities in Iraq and other such things more to the point of the thread. You left THOSE posts alone and singled out one line in my post and made a rather poor, failed attempt to refute it.
Whatsamatter boys? Don’t wanna talk about the other stuff and tell me I’m wrong about the economy just because you Nathan (military) and you Don (businessman) are doing well in that economy when a whole lot of other people aint?
Pathetic fellas.
I dont know about Nathan, but why wait? Being the evil ‘cons’ that I am, I have already breainwashed them. Yep, gave them a good scrubbing I did! Indoctrinated and the whole 9 yards.
The logic of the left is stunning for its arrogance. Clinton took credit for economic policies of the conservative administrations before him. Then after 8 years of ruining them, he gets to skate off and leave the mess for some other poor shlock to deal with. It makes you wonder who Gore would blame? Anyone but himself no doubt.
Losers, whiners and bigots.
Ah my good ol buddy JR. No rock was flipped over, I can ooze out from under something just fine all on my own, thanks!
Yes, you are right, I was woefully off topic. Bad Don. Bad bad Don!
There really isnt much to say about My Lai, er, I mean, Murtha-gate, ah, damn! Haditha! I meant to say Haditha! It is about to be the biggest story in the universe. Christ could make His second appearance and noone in the media would take notice.
If they did it, they’ll pay for it. If they didnt, let it go. Unfortunately, they are already convicted by the blathering useful idiots on the left.
The ‘loyal opposition’ (known to some as Al-Qaida, to others as freedom fighters) are now encouraged and revitalized for a fresh round of killing.
Gosh it must make liberal ‘patriots’ feel good to know they are helping keep the fight going! Heck, if they shut up about it and things calmed down, the boys might get to come home in something other than body bags. We cant have a media or politicians with nothing to complain about now can we!
Aw jeez. It’s 5pm and my mommy is calling, so I cant play anymore. I better ride my bike home so I dont burn anymore fossil fuels. The polar bears assure me they appreciate it. Monday my friends. Have a lovely weekend, even if you arent blessed by God to be a conservative!
“If they did it, they’ll pay for it.”? Yea, Calley got 3 years house arrest for murder. Heck, that’s even lighter than corporate executives get!
Don Logic: “Heck, if they [liberals] shut up about it and things calmed down, the boys might get to come home in something other than body bags.”
OMG, Don is right! It is the WAR PROTESTORS who are KILLING OUR BOYS! Ignore the sons of bitches who sent them to Iraq because of the tons and tons of botulism toxin and the mushroom cloud over an American city delivered by drone aircraft in as little as 45 minutes.
No, hell no, it’s the damn LIBERALS who keep things riled up and cost our men their lives and limbs in battle.
If only we’d just nod our heads and salute our wise and brave Fueher, then our guys could finally come home.
Do you know how idiotic you sound, Don? Sadly, you probably don’t.
Take for instance Abu Ghraib and Haditha. Sure they tortured and massacred–but who had to go and tell the world about it?!
The LIBERAL MEDIA, that’s who. Sometimes you have to torture and kill 9 year old children to establish democracy.
They should just let our boys torture and kill whoever they need to and get the job done.
That’s the American way. And the Japanese empire, and the Nazis, and the Spanish Inquisition, and the Vikings, and the Vandals, and the Romans . . .
I’m so pissed at the massacre of the villagers perpetrated by the Marines. I don’t give a damn about the “duress” they might be under, that might be the reason but it is NO EXCUSE. There is absolutly no excuse for what they did, and what they probably do all the time and get away with. What monsters.
True, Damoon. But what do you think happens when we “clean out” a place like Ramadi? You think everybody that gets hit with an airstrike is a terrorist-sympathizer?
Well, the ones that live probably are . . . now . . .
They shot unarmed women and children in cold blood because they wanted revenge. Americans wonder why the world hates us. We really showed them what freedom and justice is all about, didn’t we?
Damoon,
“…and what they probably do all the time and get away with.”
Sigh…
Damoon,
It is hardly the endorsed or condoned actions of the Marine Corps.
It doesn’t matter though. In your mind the actions of a few are enough to damn the whole bunch. Just like with Christians and anything else you disagree with.
Yes, nathan, SIGH! Because they will get away with it. Maybe someone will get a slap on the wrist but that is all. Just like Calley with hi 3 years of house arrest for the multiple cold-blooded murders he committed. And you seem to think it is just fine as long as they can just sweep it under the rug and maybe give someone detention and call it punishment.
Ben,
I have said nothing about punishment. I have not defended the alleged actions of these Marines.
The only thing I have repeated and will continue to say is that I find it wrong to use this as an example to tarnish the Marine Corps, our military, or our actions in general.
If indeed they are found to be guilty of this crime then they deserve to be punished.
Please don’t try to insinuate that I in any way condone this behavior or I am going to make excuses for it.
I love the Marine Corps. I love everything about the Esprit de Corps, Honor, Loyalty, Integrity, and Character of the USMC.
I am not going to sit here and watch or allow what these idiots may have done to tarnish the rest of us.
So, yes, when Damoon is going to say this is what we are all doing I am going to sigh and have a problem with it.
Nathan – if you want to protect the Corps then I suggest that you work to see that those responsible are truly punished. And by that I do NOT mean a slap on the wrist like Calley got. My father-in-law and other Marines I know are saddened and angered by what these people have done to damage the Corps. Take your anger out on those who sully the Corps, not the messengers. THEY and those who have helped them cover it up for so long are the ones who are damaging the Corps.
Damoon? Their portion is to serve, the Marines and other troops in the field. If they have behaved badly, WE are to blame for our governents failures the mission we sent them on
Nathan,
No one is attacking Marines. Well Damoon is but I think mistakenly. What is being attacked is the screwball, ever evolving, seemingly endless mission they are on that may have caused them to act in this way.
Nathan? As I have said before, it is the portion of Americans to demand that you and yours be put in the line of fire only when absolutely necessarry. You should THANK those here who question the mission that you are sent on but cannot refuse because of your obligation. They stand for you because they are judicious as to sending you to stand for them.
Damoon, I agree, and there should not be excuses. But I also see it as a chance to find out what was in their minds when they did it, if indeed they did, so that something will be done to stop it from happening again. Discipline after the fact won’t keep it from repeating. Learning the reason could.
Think about serving 3 tours over there and how much it would mess you up. I hold this administration responsible for the deaths of those Iraqis. It starts at the top. This instance and others are trickle down.
WASHINGTON (Reuters) – A U.S. military probe has exonerated U.S. troops in the deaths of Iraqi civilians in the town of Ishaqi in March, finding American forces followed standard procedures and committed no misconduct, defense officials said on Friday.
RD – that despite pictures showing children (terorist cadets?) with bullet holes in their heads. Seeing as the accused investigated themselves just how thorough was the investigation? If I were accused of a crime would my buddies be in cgarge of the investigation? If I were accused of a crime in another country would my buddies in my country do the investigation?
“Discipline after the fact won’t keep it from repeating.”
So we should release the Carr brothers?
Ben, I should have written, “Discipline ONLY after the fact won’t keep it from repeating.”
I didn’t mean they shouldn’t be disciplined. On the contrary. I am as horrified and disgusted as you. Let’s look at just how well incarceration and the death penalty work as crime deterrent. Do you think the Carr brothers had that in mind? Do you think those Marines were wondering what would happen if they what they did was discovered?
I’m all for nailing the b@st@rds, but “Houston, we have a problem.”
Let’s try this again…
Do you think those Marines were wondering what would happen when what they did was discovered?
Where’s that coffee?
You make a good point RD – however sufficiant punishment DOES make a deterrent, at least to a point. That is why I want to see those corporate looters get real jail time; maybe their colleagues will get the point. I do know that if we simply made a policy of no punishment for crime we would definitely see more of it.
I agree with you that we have a BIG problem; it seems all to similar to what we saw in Nam. After all, were are only killing ‘gooks’ and we all know that gooks are worthless. That is what I heard a quarter-century ago and now again today. “They are worthless.”
By the way, a human life is only worth a few hundred dollars according to the US military. That is the ‘compensation’ we offer when we gun someone down.
Yes, Ben, sufficient punishment can be a deterrent for some. For many. And I’m not against the harshest of punishments if this is true. It has to STOP.
I watch Criminal Minds a lot. Forensics fascinates me. That’s probably why I also enjoy CSI. But the mind part of criminal profiling is something else.
I’ve done a small bit of studying on serial killers as research. There are some excellent books out there about it. One, The Evil That Men Do, was written by Roy Hazelwood, who created the FBI criminal profiling system. It’s enough to curdle your blood, reading about the atrocities and many of the reasons they were enacted. Most of these men (and the majority are men) have backgrounds that are unbelievable. I don’t give them a break because of that, but it’s interesting to see how the forming of a young person’s mind can lead to the individual he/she becomes. What that does is to teach us how important raising children is.
In a sense, I think this is in line with our troops. For many (or most), staying alive becomes the #1 priority, and at times that priority blanks out all thought. It’s an automatic reaction. Then there are those who have just “lost it,” who, like these Marines we’ve heard about and others, seem to have lost all reason.
Yes, I blame them and anyone who encouraged what they did. Where did their conscience go? Most if not all were taught right from wrong, and what was done is totally and completely wrong. But that could easily mean that the conditions they live under have led them to their actions. Soldiers are taught to hate. They must be so they will be able to kill another human: the enemy. Under extreme duress, these men have gone over the edge. Finding out why could stop this kind of thing or at least curtail it.
No excuses.
It was Marines that did this, right? Am I supposed to call them something else because they didn’t adhere to the Marine guidebook and murdered unarmed women and children? If not Marines, what are they?A rose by any other name is still a rose.
EXTRADITION. If I were a suspect in a crime in Montreal while I was up there the Canadian authorities would get me extradited back up there to face trial. Well, we CLAIM that Iraq now has a legitimate government. Isn’t one of the functions of that government to hold a trial for those accused of a crime on Iraqi soil?
BH,
Iraq does NOT have a legitimate government because the elections were held under foreign military occupation.
V.L.R.B!!
Ian- Huh? What about Germany and Japan after WWII?
The same is true, especially of Germany. In fact, the last legitimate government that Germany had was the Reich government under Admiral Doenitz.
V.L.R.B!!!
Ian– You’re garglng yor bath water- bath beads and all!!
gster,
I only take showers, thanks. (not the golden kind you freaks!)
V.L.R.B!!!
Ian– Your posts speak for themselves- I need say nothing more. You are your own worst advertisement.
Gster,You are correct. You need say nothing more, please don’t!!
RA– Right you are.
Damoon,”I don’t give a damn about the “duress” they might be under, that might be the reason but it is NO EXCUSE.”
You really don’t know. You don’t give a damn about the duress? That’s pretty convenient from somebody who’s never known war. We’re talking about mostly kids who are being shot at and blown up day in and day out. You don’t know about the brotherhood under arms and what it’s like to wipe what’s left of a friend off your shirt. You call these Marines monsters? Well guess what? that’s what war turns you into. You’re so ready to condemn these young Marines from the safety of your home for their lack of civility. Maybe you and a lot of other posters on these threads should ask yourselves what drove good Americans to this point. These kids did an evil thing, but they’re not evil. They’ve just been driven past the point that anybody should have to endure. A lot of our soldiers are on their second, third, and fourth tours. What do you suppose that would do to your frame of mind? Ah, but it’s so much easier to sit back in your nice safe home and pass judgment based on your opinion of how these kids should conduct themselves in a shooting war.
Your views would be a lot different if you’d ever been in their shoes. You’re very quick with compassion for Iraqis, but you’re too quick to condemn a bunch of war weary Marines.
Well said XXX
It is the responsibility of the Supreme Commander his troops. It is OUR responsibility to hold HIM (bush) and his staff (Rumsfeld) accountable for their decisions that place our troops in the line of fire.
I apologize this next. I am in no way meaning to demean those who serve.
Damoon? If a person takes a puppy and beats and mistreats it to make it mean. If that puppy grows up to be a viscious mean dog that attacks anyone that approaches, is this the dogs fault? I say no. I say it is the masters fault.Are there born bad dogs? Yes. But by and large a dog is the product of human treatment and breeding.Make no mistake, I am not saying the actions of these Marines should be excused. But I AM for the introduction of mitigating evidence.A soldiers portion is to serve. I concede that there are “bad apples” but in the end the responsibility for a soldier lies with his commander.
“Maybe you and a lot of other posters on these threads should ask yourselves what drove good Americans to this point.”
Wordy though I’ve been, I think that’s what I’ve been rambling about. :)
“I don’t give a damn about the “duress” they might be under, that might be the reason but it is NO EXCUSE.”
Damoon, you used the two most important words in this little battle we’re having here. Reason and Excuse. They are not the same.
You’re right, there is no excuse for those this, but if we don’t get at the reason and make changes in the future, whether tomorrow, next week or ten years from now, it will continue to repeat itself. I don’t want that to happen. YOU don’t want it to. Let’s take care of those who have taken these hideous actions by giving them the discipline (punishment, if you will) they so deserve, but let’s not take our eye off the importance of knowing the reason why this happens. Without knowledge of that, we can’t stop it or even slow it. If it is the duress, let’s correct it.
Yep, Vietnam all over again. :(
The reason that the UN did not support the invasion of Iraq is that sensible people realize war is terrible. It triggers primitive barbaristic impulses in all who support it, or directly participate, activating the “reptilian” portions of the human brain. It engenders deceit and dishonesty.
Consider “Shock and Awe”. Does anyone actually believe that the administration and Pentagon thought that these smart weapons were so tightly aimable, and of such precisely-titrated power that they could be fired at, and dropped in the middle of a 2-million population city, and only Republican Guardsmen and Saddam’s henchmen would be taken out?
They KNEW IN ADVANCE that INNOCENT LIVES WOULD BE TAKEN. They may have even projected “collateral damage” levels. Tens of thousands of women, children and eldery lives have been taken by the United States of America. Soldiers, sailors, marines and airmen know this.
Now, in a situation in which killing innocents is taken to be “normal procedure”, when official policy effectively says, “we don’t WANT to do this, but we HAVE to,” how much does it take for a company that is in a do-or-die situation and sees three of its members’ blown up by an IED, and knowing that somebody inside a nearby house triggered the explosion, to become barbaric?
To be both extremely scared and and extremely angry, with fight-or-flight hormones at peak levels, overcoming the brain’s power of coolheaded rationality. If some rationality was exercised, it may very well have been, “Okay, somebody in one of these houses bombed our buddies, and killed one of them. We can’t find the male insurgent who pulled the trigger, but everyone around that person KNEW what their husband-father-son did. THEY WERE ACCOMPLICES. So they will be punished.”
Can you see the logic in this? It is actually a lot more reasonable, particularly if YOU are the one in harm’s way, than sitting in the Pentagon making plans to shell and bomb towns and cities, taking out their water supplies and electricity plants, which deliberately cause the killing, maiming, deprivation of water, hospital care, etc. to people who AREN’T accomplices to insurgency, but are peaceable people who just want to live ordinary lives, just like most Americans before the warmakers whooped them up into a barbarian frenzy.
We battled Germany for 3 and a 1/2 years in WWII Japan a little longer, and achieved unconditional surrender. We have been in Iraq almost as long. Of course we fought WWII, with our allies, including communists, with total determination.
We didn’t have anywhere near total determination in Vietnam. Recall how middle and upper-middle class young men got higher-education deferments? Then when they were exposed to the draft, sentiment rapidly turned against the war. We’ve committed less to winning Iraq then we did to Vietnam. What does this suggest will happen?
All that the vast majority of Americans are sacrificing is a huge tax burden and high gasoline costs. Who is collecting the benefits of these dollar flows?
RE: Haditha. The Marines also weren’t just inflicting retaliatory punishment. They were going to be exposed themselves to an IED planted and triggered by the same persons who set the first explosive. They would be exposed next week, the week after that, and the week after that. So killing the people who knew about the explosive, who might include children and women used as lookouts and troop-activity informants, would protect the Marines in the future. Now this doesn’t mean all the civilians were doing this. They probably weren’t. Their killing was “collateral damage”. The same thing happened in Vietnam.
Heartlander,EXCELLENT posts!
A six month old baby was part of planting the IED or being a lookout?Yes, I agree that war brings out the worst in people, but there is no excuse whatsoever for the atrocities committed by American troops since this madness all started. You can blame the pressure of war, the administration, whatever, but the responsibility ultimately lies with those who carried out this massacre. By making excuses, we only encourage more of the same to happen.Since the war started, there has been one thing after another, from American soldiers beating children and other innocent civilians, killing civilians in cold blood, to torturing and killing detainees.I’m sick of us holding ourselves up as some sort of symbol for justice and freedom, then to only find out some of those committed to carrying out the “mission” act no better than the those who were in power before we invaded. How many Iraqis have died in order for us to give them their “freedom”? What a travesty the whole thing is. If we had never invaded, the Iraqis would be better off than they are now.Yes, I do have sympathy for the Iraqis. How would you feel if someone invaded our country under the quise of giving us a “better” life, only to tear our country totally apart? They had no choice about what happened to them, we did. Our soldiers are there volutarily, ALL of them should be held to the same standards consistant with the values of our country. NO EXCUSES.
I hate the term “collateral damage”, these are innocent human beings and dehumanizing them doesn’t change a fucking thing.
Maybe we should bring back the draft, and this time there would be no deferments. How fast to you think we’d be outta there?
War really is Hell. Unless or until you’ve been through it, you have no comprehension of what those Marines were dealing with. These boys have my sympathy. Not only will they be punished, they’ll have to live with what they did for the rest of their lives. They’ve been put in a position that no civilized human should have to endure.
Our enlisted men AREN’T in a no-win situation voluntarily. Most just wanted to learn job skills or get college funding, and had few good options in the civilian sector. Look at service TV ads. Do they show soldiers taking fire from the enemy? Do they show Humvees being blown up?
Once you enlist, you have several weeks to quit. After that, you have no say in where you are posted. And you have no right to quit. That’s called desertion. It can put you in Leavenworth.NOW that we are in war, what has happened to prewar new-enlistment levels? It has dropped dramatically.
The Haditha Marines were under fire man. They were scared s—less. They were on their third deployment. Without this incident probably every one of them would have later come home with post-traumatic shock syndrome. They are really messed up.
Damoon, right on, re the draft and no deferments. Send Bushkin’s daughters over there.
And make them go out on daily patrol.
“Once you enlist, you have several weeks to quit. After that, you have no say in where you are posted. And you have no right to quit”
Heartlander it is even worse than that. There was one case where a recruit joined up to get medical training. He failed all the tests for that skill set but they did not tell him that until AFTER it was too late for him to quit. Last I heard, he was fighting deployment to Iraq.
There are probably many similar stories.
XXX, you make a lot of valid points, but unless you’ve been through having your country invaded, your house bombed, your children getting their limbs blown off or killed, gone without electricity or water for long periods of time, and lived in fear everyday for your life and the life of your family, then you really have no idea what the Iraqis are experiencing. I feel really sorry for them.It’s easy to sit back in our safe comfortable homes, waving our flags, feeling all patriotic about “the mission”, and being detached from what the Iraqis are going through.Anyone who joins the military knows what the possibilities are, unless they’re totally stupid and believe everything the recruiters tell them.I HATE what our troops are going through, and I pray that this mess will end and that we can bring them home soon. But everyone of them signed up to be in the military, and they know that giving up their autonomy and going wherever their superiors tell them to go is part of the job.All of us support the troops. But I won’t support or make excuses for the actrocities committed by any Amercian soldier.