As the tally of U.S. military deaths in Iraq officially went over the 2,500 mark Wednesday, White House press secretary Tony Snow said “it’s a number” and that “one of the things the president has said is that these people will not die in vain.” That’s about two deaths a day, or 64 a month. Perhaps 40,000 Iraqis have died in the same three-year war.
Meanwhile, members of the House had a heated and partisan debate today over the merits and direction of the war — with House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., calling it “a grotesque mistake” and GOP members fiercely defending it as crucial to the fight against terrorism. For all their talk, lawmakers show a regrettable lack of interest in working together for what every American surely wants — to get out of Iraq.
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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94 Comments
No point in concerning yourself in getting out of Iraq when there’s that pressing issue of GAY MARRIAGE to get all upset about.
The Republicans will see how totally out of touch they are when the will of the majority crushes them like a bug in November.
There is no way that you can drop the tonnage of bombs we’ve dropped on Iraq over nearly four years and only kill 40,000 people.
Try 300,000
Iraq started with 28,000,000 { 28 million } before we started liberating them.
good one ed!
Ed: From memory, Iraq and Afghanistan each have about the same population, 28 million … each less than California’s 32 million or so.
But more or less in between these two countries lies Iran with a population of about 68 million or more than twice the sum of Iraq and Afghanistan together.
But Afghanistan’s neighbor to the east, Pakistan has some 150 million, and reportedly along the way to developing a nuclear bomb.
But next door to Pakistan, is the sleeping giant, India with roughly one billion or 1/6 of the world’s population. Fortunately India currently tends to be a peaceful country.
But north of India across the Himalayan Mountains is China with more than 1.3 billion people or about 1/5 or 20% of the world’s population.
I’m not sure of the significance of these population figures. However, lets hope war doesn’t really break out over there. The domino effect could be disasterous.
And speaking of Nancy Pelosi….
Ya gotta love A Prairie Home Companion. This is really good.
http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/ci_3922992
Ed,
Your 300 000 figure is closer to the truth. Also, the true death toll for our military is much high. I am in contact with many of the guys that served under me in the first gulf war and they are serving in Afghanistan and Iraq and they have informed me of the scam. It works like this; if a soldier is very seriously wounded they are transferred to military medical facilities in Germany or back here and if the succumb to there wound outside of Iraq then they are not counted towards the war’s death toll because they actually died “out of theater”!! I have it on very good authority that the true number of dead as a result of wounds suffered “IN IRAQ” is close to 8000 and maybe higher than that by now!
Viva La Raza Blanco!!!!
Ian Santiago,
Indeed. Brian Herring has issued a report and compiled data that, as of last year, has the number of American dead at 8000.
http://tbrnews.org/Archives/a1929.htm
Viva La Raza Mestizo!!!!
Ian, good on you for posting your info. I’d heard the same thing, too, but had nothing to back it up, except links that wouldn’t be accepted.
But since when has Bush been concerned with numbers, except those that relate to his buddies’ bank accounts?
CF, the end of that link is extremely important, too, but we sure never hear or read it.
There’s a lot not to like. Every soldier lost is one too many. But there must be something said for fighting this war over there instead of here. We have not been attacked again, that should count for something.
Nancy Pelosi is a big mouth Bimbo.All mouth and no brains. Kinda like her twin Hemorrhoid Hillary.Gods wasted a lot of skin right there.
Well, BushBot Gbania, at least neither of them dragged America into a quagmire like your hero Bushdabum.
I would like to think 2500 Americam kids did NOT die in vain. I remember when America was attacked a few years ago. It would be nice to forget – but we just can’t. One of the best known military strategies is: divide and conquor. If you look at a world map and find the location of IRAN …… you would find it is right SMACK between Iraq and Afghanstan! We have a mission, it is almost 1/2 done. Support our wonderful American soldiers who give all for a forthcoming victory over terrorism for the future of freedom.
Uncle Sam
And just what did Iran of Iraq have to do with 9/11? How many of the hijackers were from those countries? ZERO! They came from the House of Saud, closely allied with the House of Bush.
Murders in the USA in 2005: 16,900
There are a couple of ways to get out of Iraq.
The First, complete and total withdrawl regardless of the consequences.
I am pretty sure most people disagree with that.
The Second is to stay untill Iraq is more stable.
Now there are many people with different views on how to do this. So, basically we all want the troops to stay till the job is done, we just have different opinions on how to do it.
Either way, the troops are staying till the job is done, unless you support a complete withdrawl now?
It is easy for the democrats to yell and scream to bring the troops home… but besides a complete and total withdrawl regardless of the consequences how do they plan on doing it?
I think we will have most of our troops out of Iraq within 2 years. But there will be a permanent base in Iraq forever. I think it will probably staff at least 10,000.
I’m just guessing, I couldn’t tell you what will really happen or what the plans really are. I’m not that well connected in the conspiracy.
Being America, we’ll have to clean up the mess that George of the Bungle go us into. I thnk we’ll learn from that diaster, but he is most definately unable to learn, fathom, discern, or whatever from his mistakes. He doesn’t make them , at least in his own mind. We just have to pay for them, in dollars or more importantly, in lives
BushdaBum will continue to kee 100,000+ troops there propping up his regime until he leaves office. It will be up to his successors to clean up his mess. And the BushBots will blame everyone but BushdaBum for it.
Ben Huie, In your ear Democrat
Why thank you Gbania. Most intelligent thing you have ever written!
Questions for the BushBots:
How many insurgents are there?
How many ARI are there?
By what ratio does the ARI need to outnumber the insurgents? Especially if they have air and armor and the insurgents do not.
How many years does it take to train an ARI soldier?
Lets see now …
According to DoD there are a few thousand insurgents. A quarter-million ARI. In other words,cabout a 100-to-1 ratio. Shouldn’t that be enough?
This is the year we need to get it out. I dont care if the repubs do it in the fall to improve their image. We need to do whats best for our great land.
Once we do we need to divert resources towards better intelligence and collaborations with international authorities.
If the Dems win, I hope they assign a commitee to investigate Bush and Co. for manipulating an unecessary war. We need to know what went down, and WHY, or we will never have trust again in our Administrations. At the same time I would hope Dems, would also be working to improve the economy, fix the budget, offer smart environmental polices, and get the nation back on track.
If u want more of the past five years. Vote Repub. If you want change, be sure to make the smart choice come November.
Good point, Ben. The conservative historian Niall Fergusson argues that, based on Iraq’s history, the bad-guy/good-guy ratio is crucial in defeating any Iraqi insurgency.
“…What has gone wrong [in Iraq]? History suggests two answers. The first is that the coalition forces are simply too few to impose order. In 1920, when British forces quelled a major insurgency in Iraq, they numbered around 135,000. Coincidentally, that is very close to the number of American military personnel currently in Iraq.The trouble is that the population of Iraq was just over 3 million in 1920, whereas today it is around 24 million. Thus, back then the ratio of Iraqis to foreign forces was, at most, 23 to 1. Today it is around 174 to 1. To arrive at a ratio of 23 to 1 today, about 1 million troops would be needed. Reinforcements on that scale are, needless to say, inconceivable.”
http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-22147.html
In your ear unthinking Republicans.
If we were fighting a war where the enemy met us on a battlefield you might have a point Ben.
We are instead fighting a war where the enemy hides and strikes civilians and the occasional miltary target.
This war is not going to be won by merely outnumbering the enemy.
It will be won by intelligence, well trained and disciplined forces, and support.
I suppose you would like to see us completely withdraw so that the Iraqi government is put into chaos and who knows what else will happen…
You seem to enjoy all the millions killed when we left the South Vietnamese out to dry.
Figures you would want the same thing in Iraq too.
DING DING DING DING!
You know what that means, players–that means that Joe Williams said something really, really dopey, AGAIN.
16,900 murders in the US.
As if the higher number of murders had any relevance at all to the number of US soldiers killed in Iraq.
It’s called a “red herring” folks, we had some 35,000 traffic deaths too.
So what.
The soldiers in Iraq didn’t have to die if Bush hadn’t sent them to save us from Weapons of Mass Destruction.
That’s what important.
Zeitgeist! It’s called perspective, for which you lack.
I knew somebody like you would say something. You’re so predictable.
Iraq is a political issue. The high crimes and murders in the USA get barely any attention. We still have a lot to do at home. But of course, you can really blame that on Bush can you?
gster! We will pay for Bush’s blunder? Man! We are still paying for Reagans.
No nathan, it is not “a war where the enemy hides and strikes civilians and the occasional miltary target”, it is a war where it IS the civilian population who are supporting the resistence to our occupation. Your complaint that they don’t just come out to be killed “a war where the enemy met us on a battlefield” is PRECISELY the same complaint that King George made about the insurgents here in the 18th century, that santa Ana made about the insurgents in Texas, and that the Germans made about the Franch, Polish and Jewish undergrounds in Europe in the 30s-40s. You BushNots seem to have a real problem recognizing that the Iraqi people simply don’t want us there.
As for “It will be won by intelligence, well trained and disciplined forces, and support” I would think that, IF your lies were true, this would be working by now. The ARI should be rooting out those few thousand by now. Assuming, of course, that your lies were truth.
Totally irrelevent, Joe.
The murders are for the most part crimes of passion and unpreventable–except in the sense that a less violent society results in fewer murders.
That’s a tough-nut to crack. Since nobody knows exactly what motivates murderers, it’s hard to figure out a strategy to prevent it.
And no, I don’t blame Bush for that.
The deaths of soldiers in Iraq are all 100 percent preventable. Don’t send them and they don’t die.
Joe-True, and we bought ourselves out of the Cold War by nearly bankrupting Russia. This time, are we going to bankrupt ourselves?
Ben has pointed out that in 1836 an insurgency was wiped clean out, killed to the last man. This happened at the Alamo in 1836.
Did the insurgency die?
Ask the Connecticut cowboy, a.k.a., GW Bush.
If you don’t have the time to read about counter insurgency tactics, check out the movie “The Battle of Algiers.” The Algerian insurgency was also wiped out, to the last 2 men and 1 woman who were killed by the French army while hiding in a closet in a shabby flat in Algiers. It’s all in the movie. But don’t miss the end! (although I suspect its meaning will be lost on many)
http://imdb.com/title/tt0058946/
OK Joe, some perspective. 20K murders in a country of 300M – one per 15,000. Say 60K dead Iraqis in a country of 30M – one per 500. 10K dead/wounded US soldiers in a deployment of a couple hundred K – one per 20.
I’ll take my chances in Detroit over Baghdad.
(Numbers above very “round”)
Ben,
Is that your coy way of just saying you hope we leave and let chaos ensue and millions die just like you revel from Vietnam?
Basically you are saying that America is the bad guy and the insurgents are the good guys with that comparison?
Was Al-Zarqawi one of the people just fighting for America to leave? Was he right too?
That is basically what you are saying isn’t it Ben?
This is meant as a serious question and not to take out of contexts.
What are soliders suppose to do?
I’m not saying to march them out to die or to parachute them out in every hell hole on earth, but they do have a purpose and with that purpose comes an enormous job of fighting and killing people. It isn’t pretty nor easy, but the soliders are called out by their commander all the time.
America has always been in a conflict zone. I couldn’t even tell you when America hadn’t had to shoot a rifle or drob a bomb that wasn’t for practice in a given year.
You can disagree with the President’s reason to use the troops to battle terrorist overseas and that’s ok. I can understand. But no matter what, there will always be people that disagree. Even during WWI, WWII, hell even the Revolutionary War wasn’t popular.
I could be wrong…sometimes I am.
Did the revolutionaries who fought for our independence kill innocent women and children?
Did the “insrgents” in the Alamo kill innocent women and children?
Your attempt at comparing the terrorists in Iraq who kill innocent women and children is sickining at best.
I think we are finding out more truth tonight about several of our liberal bloggers tonight.
They don’t care about our troops. They think America is the bad guy and the terrorists are the good guys.
Listen to them try to compare them to everything they can to make them look good.
I am curious as to how many of them will be so quick to defend the actions of Al-Zarqawi?
Was he just an insurgent like the American revolutionaries who fought for independence too?
Nathan – the insurgents in those earlier struggles were not up against as well-armed an occupation force. That said, the occupiers did in fact accuse them of such actions.
No defense of al-Zakawi here, don’t know about anyone else.
By the way, how many civilians have our bombs killed? Did the Red Coats bomb cities with civilians in them?
Nathan – I hope that we can find a way to put together some sort of coalition government that can govern that country. Unlike you, I do NOT want to see us embroiled in a never-ending violent occupation. That’s what you are saying, isn’t it nathan? You want there to everlasting bloodshed and occupation, right? In you coy way of course.
As Powell warned, BushdaBum broke it; now we own it.
There you go again Ben…
Who’s side are you on Ben? You love to keep trying to make America look bad don’t you?
You seem to agree and defend the actions of the terrorists over there, but the US actions… they are wrong.
Just admit it, everytime a soldier dies it gives you more ammo to say how bad things are, not because you care about the soldier, but because you are against America’s actions there.
If you are not defending al-Zakawi then what makes him different than the “insurgents” you are talking about?
Was he some third faction there, one you don’t agree with?
There you go again nathan. I have to either be with you 100% or I’m an America-hater. Typical.
al-Z was not an Iraqi. He had no business there either. Neither do our “allies” from Saudi who are there (against us). That is part of the problem, we made a decision to keep the border open.
Come on nathan “Just admit it, everytime an Iraqi dies it gives you more ammo to say how great things are, not because you care about the Iraqis, but because you are against Iraqi peoples actions there.”
Just who is occupying what country? Who invited the US to invade, conquer, and occupy.
I hope that some sort of coalition government can be cobbled together; however I think Colin Powell knows a bit more about this than you do. Remember, he warned that if BushdaBum broke it we own it.
All of a sudden it is not a bunch of Iraqi insurgents fighting for their country now?
Now you say there are indeed people there fighting against us and Iraq?
How quickly you change your tune.
JWink
Pakistan has nuclear weapons. I saw the underground testing. They also have the means to deliver them. That keeps a balance of power between India and Pakistan.
The Israelis and Rice have tried to upset that balance by giving India the most sophisticated radar systems we have, and Rice helped stir-up trouble by allowing India to increase its stockpile of nuclear weapons.
Rice and the Israeli hardliners can’t seem to let a day go by without making trouble somewhere.
Notice Rice has not brought-up the subject of an Israeli gunboat firing an artillary shell into a family picnic of Palestinians on a Gaza beach.
Killed about a dozen and injured about 40.
That little girls screams were heard around the world.
I guess Rice must be hard of hearing.
It is fair to ask here if Nathan is prepared to die to accomplish the US mission in IRAQ.
That is not over the line. Nathan says he is to be deployed there soon.
So Nathan? As one of those we send in harms way, are you prepared to die for this mission?
Now despite your answer and it’s obligatory root it duty, you must realize that it is folks like Ben and me and others who have a duty of our own.
OUR duty and the duty of the mostly uninvolved uniformed American public is to see that you and yours are sent into harms way only when absolutely necessary.
You should thank us our concerns, even if you do not think them warranted.
As to Iraq? We are TOLD that the insurgency is small. We are TOLD that by an large the Irauqi people want us there. We are TOLD that Iraq wants democracy.
I am not an advocate of an immediate withdrawl. That would be like the teachers walking out on a class of kindergartners.
IF democracy is what Iraq TRULY wants, let us put that to the test. Announce that Iraq has 6 months to get itself ready and THEN the US will withdraw. The US will guarantee ONLY external borders of Iraq, no more.
In short leave Iraq to the Iraqis.
Hey France did not stick around much after assisting us in our revolution against Britain.
JR! The reason why France didn’t stick around is because they went broke helping us.
But 100 years later they did give us the Statue of Liberty.
Statue of Liberty no less. Well it seems as though we should reciprocate and give them a new Guillotine or something.
No offense JR, but Ben would just as soon call me a murderer and killer like he did my fellow Marines without all the facts.
Ben is not on my side. Ben will use anything he can to point out how bad America is and the men and women who serve.
He exploits there mistakes and uses what he can to make them look bad.
Nathan.
Ben attacks the mission, not you or those who serve.
A soldiers portion is to serve. I DO recall Ben holding your superiors to higher account the mission and those sending Marines and others into it. I also recall your defense of the leader and your efforts to place the blame for atrocities on a few individuals. I think it was just today that you refferred to some servicemen as “retarded”
And YOU did not answer my question. Maybe your service does not allow that and so if you do not answer I will allow for that.
DO know I feel bad in asking it but it is relevant.
Are you willing to die to complete this “mission”?
Oh and Nathan?
Just how is opposing war hatred for the troops?
You assume much about Ben that last post of yours. But he is HERE and I am here and others are here opposing the war and demanding accountablility of your commander.
I KNOW yours is not to question why but to do and die.
OURS is to quetion why and DEMAND answers! We owe you that! Stop questioning it and be damned grateful for the few who care enough to care.
It is so easy not to. Hell can half the people in this coutry even FIND Iraq on a map!
JR,
No one is ever ready to give their life for their country or to die.
That is an assinine way of looking at things.
I am prepared to do my duty as a Marine to accomplish the mission given to me.
I am prepared to do everything in my power to protect my fellow Marines, serviceman, innocent people, and myself.
It is not a Marines willingness to die for the mission which makes us such a strong fighting force. It is a Marines willingness to die for his fellow Marine which is.
Right out of the book. ;)
KFG,
I can’t remember if I posted this, but check it out if you like Garrison Keillor. He’s doing weekly columns.
http://www.tmsfeatures.com/tmsfeatures/subcategory.jsp?file=20060606ctngk-a.txt&catid=1945&code=ctngk
“JR,No one is ever ready to give their life for their country or to die.That is an assinine way of looking at things.”
Is it Nathan? Then why is it that every death in this “war” is treated as such? Why are those who have already died used as justification for more to die that they all may not have done so in vain?
“It is not a Marines willingness to die for the mission which makes us such a strong fighting force. It is a Marines willingness to die for his fellow Marine which is.”
The second reaffirms the first at least. Death pays for previous death.
That is your portion Nathan. Duty, I get it.
But you have NOT made your point that those of us who do have the province to question your willing sacrifice are wrong in doing so.
We don’t want you to die because bush is wrong. We want you NOT to die because bush is wrong.
I think it’s so easy and obvious for someone to have the view point of “I care for you and don’t want you to die.” No one wants anyone to die BUT there cannot be support of troops without the respect and support of what they do. Do you view our soldiers as murders or protectors?
If you view them as murders then I don’t believe that you are as honest with your comment of respecting them. I’d hate to be called a murderer, when all I am doing is protecting my country. I’m in the desert, it’s hot and miserable. There are people trying to kill me because of what I am trying to accomplish here and do I get the satisfaction of knowing that everyone at home cares, loves me and supports me being here? No, instead there are people at home crying about how war is evil, my fellow comrades are murderers, and because some people hate my commander and chief and would want to see him fail, they use me as an excuse to push their liberal ideals.
Our boys have a job and they take orders and do what is asked of them to protect this country. If you don’t like the decisions that are made then change the leadership. It’s easy to bash Bush, and if he’s sooo horrible why have Democrats had such a hard time getting rid of him. If he’s so evil then why are so many people in the country willing to support him??
Oh wait, I forgot…there’s a conspiracy. Man, our country is so corrupt that people get away with so many illegal and unethical things. Perhaps some of us should just leave this country because of all the evil and corruption and move to France.
First we get “if you disagree with President Bush you’re anti-American,” and now “love it or leave it.”
Next up: Nathan calls out for Freedom fries. Thomas Wynn insists on Hunts ketchup. Never Heinz! shouts Nathan.
The nostalgia just blooms up like a chrysanthemum blossum, don’t it? Ah how the heart aches for those heady debates of 2002…
Pretty black and white to you, huh Thomas?I really don’t think that many people aupport Bush when you look at what the polls say.If it all could only be so simple as you make it out to be…..*sigh*.
I notice some consistency in nathan’s posts. I think he is so consistant it is “bot”like.
Anyone who disagrees with nathan hates america, hates the troops, loves terrorists, wants to overthrow the u.s. government, wants saddam back in power, wants the troops to die…. and the hits could go on.
I especially love this passage:
“Ben is not on my side. Ben will use anything he can to point out how bad America is and the men and women who serve.
He exploits there mistakes and uses what he can to make them look bad.”
Now I could bone dig here, but if you read this blog, you know for a fact, that nathan is predictable. You could subsitute the word, christian, or conservative or whatever, but whenever he is outgunned intellectually, you can count on his final words saying “you are just using anything you can find to bash (pick one, bush, christians, the military, republicans, etc.)” you just want to make (pick one) look bad”. “you just hate (pick one)”.
Nathan is reliable, when he is losing a “debate” as he calls it, for stomping his feet and having a hissy fit and then declaring himself correct and above it all and he enourages his detractors to “try again”. That is where the running joke that is nathan comes in. “This is not a pipe”.
He refuses to even consider obvious facts. In his bushbot, “you hate america” or “you are either with us or against us” limited mentality, no facts exist except that spring from his mind, his dad’s mind, his preacher’s mind or his c.o.’s mind.
Too bad a guy with so much potential doesnt have his OWN mind, an original thought, or the will to admit that sometimes he is wrong. Deny ’till ya die!
And his persecution complex is legendary, even though he is part of the majority religion, the majority political party, and the majority social position.
As someone here said, it is really hard to pull off the persecuted minority act, but nathan does it so often, you almost think he wants us to feel sorry for him. Poor persecuted nathan. Anything short of a christian theocracy and bushforlife presidence is persecution to the likes of nathan.
Nathan is constantly whining that anyone who doesnt swallow his brand of religion or his old testement god or his new testiment laws, well, they hate christians and are just looking for a good christian to persecute.
Yep, you are either for his brand of god, or you hate god. You either support evil doers like terry and joe, or you wanna turn the country over to queers. You either support a gun in every persons’s hand, or you love the criminals.
You are right Damoon. I wish the real world was as simple and rosy as nathan’s and wynn’s.
Here is how it is for some other people in america. I know, the dominionist, republican, military, gun loving, class warring majority like to think there ARE no real americans save for them. But really, we could say there are other people who feel and think this way:
You are either for truth, justice and civil liberty, or you are the REAL hater of america and it’s values.
I dont really give a flying fig how many guns you own or how many times you go to church or who or what you do in bed.
If you hate freedom and choice and free elections, you hate america. If YOUR brand of religion, your brand of war mongering, and your brand of simple minded meaness is all you understand, you would fit right in with a very conservative crowd.
In saddam’s regime, that is.
sorry. should have said “persecuted MAJORITY”
“waaaaaaa, Mommy. The minority is persecuting the majority. They hate american mom. Waaaaaaaaaaaa”
Nathan – those marines and soldiers you accuse me of denigrating are the ones I learned from. They were haunted by what they experienced in Nam. They are those you call “retarded”.
Stay safe in your delusions; they appear to serve you well. They keep you from having to think.
KFG- Well stated.
A comment about “Dying for your Country”.
Marines are not paid or trained to die for their country. They’re expected to make that other sob die for his country.
Nathan, I expect you to carry that “expectation” out.
Ben,
I am saying those that partook in what happened at My Lai are indeed retarded.
The Marines I refer to are the ones involved in what happened in Haditha.
I understand that sometimes we may not agree with what our government does but it is the system we have. I mean do you believe in your government? I’m sure there’s a lot of information we as citizens don’t know about and so things aren’t so easy to decide on.
I’m involved in organizations and I make tough decisions at times that aren’t very popular but due to the information I have, I try to make the best decision. President Bush may have been elected and he appoints a cabinet but our whole system of government/bureaucracy is still the same people no matter if their President was Bush, Clinton, Bush SR, or Regan.
When Presidents Bush Sr. and Carter did not do a good job, we replaced them in elections. I think the midterm elections will be a good gauge, so we will see. If the Democrats win many elections this November, then the polls can be good at gauging public opinion. But of course, if I remember, President George W. Bush was down in every poll leading up to the elections and he was still re-elected. If the polls we rely on aren’t always accurate then how good are they really to gauge public opinion. I don’t know just food for thought.
“But of course, if I remember, President George W. Bush was down in every poll leading up to the elections and he was still re-elected.”
He lost in the exit polls too.
How do you spell relief?
D-i-e-b-o-l-d
Hey girl. If you like the political blogs, check out Thoughts From Kansas.
And if you don’t care for that one check out Red State Rabble.
I suppose if the Republicans are so good at cheating in the elections, why do you guys even think you are going to have a chance?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132×2682164
I love posting from DU since so many freepers and professional trolls dont like it.
seems we are not the only ones who fell for the right wing “civility” meme these past two weeks. Organized campaign? Paid RW trolls?
Check out the link. Targeted trolling by the freepers.
And then they cry “civility”.
Not only here…
…and in case you wonder what I mean by professional trolls, this is getting lots of attention this week in the fever swamp. hehehe
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364×1438787
Sound like people we know?
Well, I think its kinda sad we live in a country that is so easy cheat in our elections. If I was some of you folks I’d be furious, not at George W. Bush but at the Democrat Party because they have allowed George W Bush cheat on the 2000 elections AND the 2004 elections.
Something needs to be done ASAP because if not the 2008 elections will be the same result. Heaven forbid the crazy conservatives get their way again, we need more “Vote or Die” commercials from P-Diddy! To get the “true” voice of this country to come out and vote.
KFG,
I think I have seen you cry more about people crying. I am not sure which is worse.
“I suppose if the Republicans are so good at cheating in the elections, why do you guys even think you are going to have a chance?”
Nathan, I don’t think we really have a chance. In fact, I’ll make a prediction here. The republicans will maintain control of the government, but just barely. They’ll win in the contested elections, but just barely. And there will be some strange things come to light after the elections, but they won’t be investigated, because republicans will be in control.
Republicans will stay in power, but at what price to our country? Elections are now suspect.
Suspect?
For what reason… because your party lost and you are upset at the world?
It is a bunch of crap which amounts to little more than conspiracy theory level of credability.
Otherwise it would be a much bigger deal.
Yeah, you’re probably right. Nothing to see here, folks, move along.But there’s all those “irregularities”.
“Democratic members of the House of Representatives from Florida, New York and Michigan, cited a number of incidents that came to light in the days after the election. One was a glitch in Ohio that caused a memory card reader made by Danaher Controls to give George W. Bush 3,893 more votes than he should have received. Another was a problem with memory cards in North Carolina that caused machines made by UniLect to lose 4,500 votes cast on e-voting machines. The votes were lost when the number of votes cast on the machines exceeded the capacity of the memory cards.”http://www.wired.com/news/evote/0,2645,65623,00.html
“Following the 2004 election, various aspects of the voting process raised concerns, including whether voting had been made accessible to everyone entitled to vote, whether the votes cast had been correctly counted, and whether these irregularities decisively affected the reported outcome of the election.
Among the issues raised in 2004 were allegations or complaints regarding obstacles to voter registration, improper purges of voter lists, voter suppression, accuracy and reliability of voting machines (especially electronic voting), problems with absentee ballots and provisional ballots, areas with more votes than signatures of voters in election poll books, and more votes than registered voters.[10][11][12] and possible partisan interference by voting machine companies and election officials. Although a recount was conducted in Ohio, many of the alleged improprieties (such as long lines or tampering) could not be addressed in a recount.”http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_U.S._Election_controversies_and_irregularities#Controversial_or_irregular_aspects_of_the_2004_election
“The Republicans will never give up their voting machines,” said a top Republican party official to Charlie Matulka, the Democratic candidate for the U.S. Senate seat in Nebraska. This statement was in response to Charlie’s very public protest against the conflict-of-interest inherent in the candidacy of Senator Chuck Hagel (R-NE). Hagel has held top executive positions (and still has investments) in companies that owned the machines that counted the vote in Nebraska this election and last.
Republicans dominate the voting machine business. So, I expected the Republicans to take back the Senate… amid reports of voting machine “irregularities” in several states and polling results that didn’t come close to election outcomes. And with billions of dollars at stake, who could resist the temptation to tweak results? It’s duck soup.”http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles/Landes_2002Elections.htm
“On Saturday, November 13, and Monday, November 15, the Ohio Election Protection Coalition’s public hearings in Columbus solicited extensive sworn first-person testimony from 32 of Ohio voters, precinct judges, poll workers, legal observers, party challengers. An additional 66 people provided written affidavits of election irregularities. The unavoidable conclusion is that this year’s election in Ohio was deeply flawed, that thousands of Ohioans were denied their right to vote, and that the ultimate vote count is very much in doubt.”http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1118-30.htm
“The internal logs of at least 40 Sequoia touch-screen voting machines reveal that votes were time and date-stamped as cast two weeks before the election, sometimes in the middle of the night.”http://www.bbvforums.org/cgi-bin/forums/board-auth.cgi?file=/1954/19421.html
“According to local media reports, officials at a precinct in Fulton County, Georgia removed three machines after voters said their votes registered for different candidates. In Roanoke County, Virginia, people at several precincts reported that their selection for democratic candidates registered as votes for republicans in both the governor’s and state attorney general race. And in several Ohio precincts, electronic machine malfunctions and problems getting machines running forced a number of polling places to open late.”http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/2585
” Otherwise it would be a much bigger deal.”
Um, the republicans control the government and they have all the guns.
But the BushBots like Nathan will only call it proof if there is an investigation by the RNC that concludes fraud.
Ben,
We are not on opposite ends of the spectrum.
You sit on one side with no evidence ready and willing to condemn people as guilty untill an investigation proves them innocent.
I am sitting in the middle. I am saying that at this point in time, there is not evidence showing they are guilty.
In the past month of watching you post, it is fairly obvious that you hate America. You always point out the “alleged” wrong doing of ours, you constantly throw around events which are not the standard but the exception as if it is proof of how bad American troops are.
From the civilian airliner, to My Lai, and now Haditha…
You grab ahold of these events and use them to bash our troops, bash this country, and then you have the gall to compare what is happening in Iraq to the Alamo and our Revolution?
You are so bassackward wierd I don’t even know where to begin.
Nathan – “In the past month of watching you post, it is fairly obvious that you hate the TRUTH.”
You are so incredibly full of BULLSHIT in your BULLSHIT accusations about anyone who differs with your BushBot BULLSHIT hates America. You are using the exact techniques used by Adolph Hitler when he accused his enemis of hating Germany. GO TO HELL!
Stay secure in your BULLSHIT delusions Nathan, you can’t face the truth.
So why do you do what you do then Ben?
What truth is it that I hate?
The truth about the Red Cross?
*Gag*
Nathan’s beginning to remind me of the black knight in MP&THG.———————————King Arthur: [after Arthur's cut off both of the Black Knight's arms] Look, you stupid Bastard. You’ve got no arms left.Black Knight: Yes I have.King Arthur: *Look*!Black Knight: It’s just a flesh wound.———————————-
Ben has posted here daily for months now. In those posts he’s written that he’s donated time and money to civic causes of his choice; he’s also been actively involved in political campaigns – including his own!
People who hate America don’t do these things, Nathan. This should go without saying. Those currently serving in the military shouldn’t accuse such citizens – who obviously care deeply – of hating America.
It’s clear that Nathan is lashing out here because he’s lost the debate (and because the longer Ben refuses to respond to the Red Cross embroglio the closer Nathan comes to showing yet again he has no idea how to Google this website; shut up already with the whining about the Red Cross thing, Nathan, or provide links and an argument).
Corollary A to Godwin’s Law: as a debate on a non-partisan website grows, the probabality of a conservative accusing a liberal of hating America approaches 1.
Corollary B: as a debate on a non-partisan website grows, the probabality of a conservative telling a liberal to love it or leave it approaches 1.
I note no answer or refutation of XXX’s post by Nathan who did manage 3 rants after it.
Now Flike…
Anyone who is going to continue to insinuate that my fellow Marines are guilty of a massacre in Haditha without all the facts deserves nothing from me.
Please don’t tell me what I should and should not do as a Marine.
Ben has constantly belittled the miltary and their actions.
I owe him nothing.
Nathan?
I do not know Ben well.
I think I got to shake his hand.
At the first meetup he attended, he brought data to share with YOU. He spent most of his time with YOU.
I think you go beyond unfair in attacking him.
“In the past month of watching your posts, I think it is fairly obvious that you hate America”
You have accuse me of the same before Nathan.
Let me reaffirm that for you in your limited thinking. I DO hate YOUR take on America.
Nathan?
If Ben hated America he would not be here posting ideas to help America. He certainly would not have spent so much time sharing his take on knowledge with YOU as you seem to have your own definition of just who loves America and who does not.
Nathan the entire blog is familiar with your I’m sorry to say limited form of discourse.
Not to bash the military Nathan but you are “conservative” not in just thought but in thinking. That is after all the first thing the military does in boot camp. Crush individuality.
Individualty………the very essence of Americanism. The first thing to be destroyed by those trained to defend America. Helluva square to circle that.
But that is what you have been taught and that is what you give us here.
A debate to you is a box. It is your box that someone defined for you. By virtue of that you get to define the box. You get to change the dimensions of the box as you see fit. Only those ideas that you have been told to see fit are allowed in that box. Any others are automatically “out of the box”and thus defined as hostile.You are programmed Nathan. And America is not supposed to be about programming.
You won’t like this. But Ben and I and those who dispute and question your programming are better Americans than you. We owe you our better judgement as you have sacrificed “for us” your own.
I pretend not to know all the facts about “irregularities” that may or may not have existed in the last election. As a typical citizen, I know the media at times if they have enough evidence (at times even little evidence) will investigate and find the truth to the best of their ability.
I guarantee that CNN would be on top of these irregularities ASAP. But that didn’t happen, even on one of the sites that were siding the “irregularities”, it talked about accusations. I’m sorry but accusations are not enough to make folks guilty.
I believe our country has a good and fair system, and even though it may not be perfect, it’s better them us voting by fingerprint and stuffing some cardboard box.
I do believe in the integrity of our elections. If there were truly cheating going on last election Democrats and Republicans need to eliminate these so called “irregularities”, if not then voter turnout will be far worse and the state of our government will fall under true chaos. I would like to ask many of you who believe this system of ours is so flawed to make it your duty (because I know you care for this country so much and not just want to complain about it when your elected officials lose) to ensure we as Americans have fair elections.
JR,
Lets not pretend. You don’t agree with me and I don’t agree with you.
First off, you don’t know the first thing about Marine Corps training. As a matter of fact, I don’t think you would have survived the first week of it.
Now you think you somehow know what the military does?
You think you are being snide with me, yet your comments about what the military did to me applies to everyone else.
Is that what you think of our brave men and women fighting overseas? They are all conservatives and think in a box and are programed?
I know many of my fellow Marines that are about as far left as you are on the political spectrum if not more so.
JR, you are a pompus person saying you are a better American than I am.
What makes you better? What is it that you have done for this country JR which makes you such a better American than I?
Then just write that you think Ben hates Marines. If your blood is up a little then you can say that you think he hates the military.
Don’t write that Ben hates America. That just isn’t true, everybody here can see it and knows it, and when you insist that Ben hates America it’s like saying that George Bush is a Conservative: it makes you look like an idiot.
By the way, does your inability to do what kfg calls bonedigging mean you’re going to stop whining now about the Red Cross?
Thomas,” I know the media at times if they have enough evidence (at times even little evidence) will investigate and find the truth to the best of their ability.”
Do you know who owns the news outlets? Let me give you a hint: Corporate America. REPUBLICAN Corporate America. So no, Thomas, we’re not going to get any kind of investigation of voting irregularity. So now, we have machines that don’t leave a paper trail, machines that overcount republican votes, machines that change Democratic votes to republican votes, and a system that any half-@ss hacker can compromise. You and your conservative friends may think you have a good thing here, but when the vote is compromised and controlled by one party, it’s only a matter of time before we get a tyrant. But that’s ok, huh? Just as long as it’s a republican tyrant. When the vote is compromised, sooner or later, we all lose.
On June 16 at 8:40 I posted this:
“Now I could bone dig here, but if you read this blog, you know for a fact, that nathan is predictable.”
Then, right on cue, nathan!
“In the past month of watching you post, it is fairly obvious that you hate America.”
How much do you think he gets paid everytime he says that? Or this?
“You seem to agree and defend the actions of the terrorists over there”
And who can forget this classic:
“You grab ahold of these events and use them to bash our troops, bash this country”
…and you could add, “bash christians, bash coulter, bash…” whatever.
Nathan, dont you get that we have your number on all these classic lines? Do you see why we call you a bot?
Naw, he doesnt see. This is not a pipe…
It would be sad if it wasnt so damn funny.
Flike,
Maybe if you paid attention instead of blindly jumping to the defense of Ben, you would have seen that I did post links twice.
I just enjoy rubing it in Ben’s face when he starts talking to me about being a liar.
His hating America is probably no more true than my being a liar.
The common response by you and all your little pals when ever anyone says anything about name calling here is to stop crying.
So, stop crying.
The baseless accusations thrown around here don’t seem to bother any of you unless it is done to you.
The military is just a machine, when its driver is a nut, it is dangerous for the machine and those in its path.
Nathan, I have the Vietnam Bronze Star with Cross of Gallantry, and to me it is just a piece of metal, for taking lives with other pieces of metal. The Glory and Honor part is bullshit, you get into a situation not of your making, and you get yourself and buddies out anyway you can. Then if you have a conscience, you might decide never to let another man put you into that position again. I decided to determine who my enemies were, not some putz sitting in the White House.
Nathan,
Honest question: Are you a member of the Young Republicans?
I used to be an active member of the Sedewick County Young Republicans (SCYR) for a couple of years, went to some pachydrm meetings here and there, was both President and Vice President for the WSU College Republicans, helped on several campaigns, been to the CPAC 3 times in Washington DC…
…I just enjoy rubing it in Ben’s face…
…The baseless accusations thrown around here don’t seem to bother any of you unless it is done to you.Posted by: Nathan | June 17, 2006 at 12:38 PM
I suppose somebody’s going to have to tell you that you’ve managed to rube your own face in it, right?
Flike,
In case you missed the memo, I don’t care to try to be nice here anymore.
I won’t be vulgar like CF, or overtly rude, but as far as trying to be polite and civil in all my posts… nope.
As everyone loves to say, Stop crying about it.
No offense, but everytime I call for civility or call someone out for using bad language I get a string of comments telling me to stop crying or calling me a hypcrite.
It is not worth it anymore.
I will be as polite and civil as I can be, but you won’t hear me complain anymore.