“This core group is a highly concentrated version of the Bush base, one that appears to be motivated more by general principles and a comfort level with the president than by specific issues or political trends,” The New York Times reported last weekend about residents in Provo, Utah, and other places in which President Bush’s poll numbers have remained high. “They tend to be impressed by Mr. Bush’s faith and convinced that he understands their lives and values.”
Such perspectives are part of human nature, particularly when faith is a component. If you like and admire someone, you tend to be quick to forgive. And if you don’t like the person, you can rush to find faults. Thus, President Clinton could do nothing right in the minds of many conservatives, and many liberals feel the same about President Bush.
I’ve often wondered if so many conservatives would be OK with the NSA wiretapping if President Clinton — or Hillary — had authorized it, or if they would still be so supportive of the war in Iraq if the Clinton administration had mismanaged it. Conversely, would liberals not really care if Bush had an affair with his intern, then lied about it under oath?
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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48 Comments
No need to wonder about the question you raise. You actually have it right.
It all depends on what team you’re on. You will always believe that your party is always right no matter what.
The hard core Democrats can’t find anything wrong with any of Clinton’s policies or decision. He is perfect in their eyes.
Same with hard core Republicans who feel that Reagan was supreme and did everything right.
Clinton could do exactly what Bush is doing and he would be a hero amoung Democrats and hardly any of them would be saying anything against the war. They didn’t say anything about the Balkin Wars, African Campaign, Haiti, and the bombing of Iraq. Democrats didn’t say anything when Clinton radically change welfare and kicked many people off it or permanent trade status with China, which are opposite of the Democrat stance on those issues.
So it doesn’t matter the principle, but the team.
Sorry, Joe, but spying/wiretapping is wrong, no matter what party.
As for those values Nathan keeps talking about:clinton lied the dress dried bush lied tens of thousands died
What’s more important? Someone’s sexual indescretions or lives?
I always said that Clinton seemed more like a Republican, I wonder why I did not like him?Oh yeah it was gun control, I use to say that Clinton did not want to ban guns ownership, it was just if your name started with a letter of the Alphabet you could not own a firearm. I am a Republican after all!!!
But if I could I would rather it turns out have Clinton back (OMG I might have to vomit after writing that!) over Bush! Knowing what I know now, Clinton actually did take Al-Qaeda seriously and beefed up our counter terrorism task force. Sigh and yes I was one of them that when he launched the cruise missile attack on Afghanistan. Said he did it just to get the heat off of him for his office affair.
Tonight I told the co-worker that was so gleeful in 2004 that he had voted for Bush’s reelection about the signing statements and what I had found so far. He sat silent looking at the ground, then changed the subject to a cute girl he had seen.
I have said it before and will say it now, not since FDR has a President had such a opportunity to go down in this country’s history as its hero. But has so fowled it up that he may well be remembered in the same light as Benedict Arnold. (Turn and spit on the ground)
DING DING DING!
Once again, it’s time for the “Joe Williams is an idiot who talks out of his ass” bell.
So Clinton was “perfect in the eyes of Democrats?” Not THIS Democrat. Where did I, and many other Democrats, differ? Let me count the ways.
-Noninterference in the Rwandan genocide-NAFTA-Welfare Reform-The ‘roadless rule’ executive order at the end of his second term-Telecom ‘reform’ act of 1996-Trade embargo against Iraq-Triangulation
Again and again, Clinton sold the Democratic Party’s base of working people down the river in favor of business interests. This, as much as anything, has opened the party to the accusation of abandoning its historical mission of being the majority, egalitarian party.
To be fair, Joe Williams is surely correct that tribal identity has as much to do with what policies people are willing to countenance from their leaders as does anything else. But I don’t think that licenses the sweeping claim that Clinton could do what Bush is doing and no Democrat would raise a fuss.
What always pissed us Democrats off about Clinton was that he’d set himself in opposition to Democratic constituencies in order to suck up votes from elsewhere. Hence the Sista Souljah controversy of 1992, when Clinton publicly rebuked an African-American rapper for being un-American.
With the passage of time, folks tend to remember warm, fuzzy Bill rather than selling-folks-down-the-river Bill. I may have enjoyed the 1990’s, but nostalgia comes at too high a price.
I have come to believe partisanship is endangering this country and blinding the people to what is going on.Nathan said he thinks I have bought into a load of crap, I hope he is right. No one wishes me to be wrong more then I. For if I am right, this country is in more danger of collapsing then any other time in its history since the Civil war.
When the President of the United States see the Congress and the Supreme Court as nothing more then a “advisory ” council. And states he is not bound by any decision that either makes, that he is the supreme decider in all matters in this country. He is no longer a President and this is no longer America!He is using the signing statement as line-item-vetoes, which is something that the President is not empowered to do. He is rewriting laws that come to his desk and those that have been law for longer then he has been President. The scope of this has gone beyond that which effects the war on terrorism.
CF, dont forget Clinton’s famous support of the so called “Defense of Marriage” law, and the equally famous “dont ask dont tell” policy that pissed off EVERYONE!
He would have sold out any of his constituencies to suck up a few republican votes. He knew his “friends” had no other choice since wingnuts were all the repubs were offering.
Gee, sounds like governor leadership.
But of course, all us libs just drink the clinton coolaide.
Right.
Clinton, however, unlike bush, did know how to hire mainstream economic advisors who knew how to make the economy work and work well. Bush? I’m laughing at his Laffer policy.
Clinton also hired people who brought the federal budget into line so the conservatives, under the leadership of bushco, could now spend us into oblivion. And then add a few tax cuts for the wealthy just to make SURE the economy doesnt work.
Yep. He was the best republican president ever. Screw his supporters and make the economy hum and business boom.
But all the republicans care about are the lurid details of his sexuality.
Say…. Phill Klein didnt help investigate did he? Seems like an fixation on the sexual practices of others is a real republican trait.
Can I watch? LoL
KFG
Aside from NAFTA what Clinton policies made the economy work so well and why was the economy spiralling down by the end of his term?
Republicans balanced the budget, Clinton just went along for the ride. What happened to those Republicans? I’d like to know.
Clinton was the MASTER of triangulation. Why so many Democrats stood by him? Team players, something Dems are better at than Republicans.
Heckler – the operating budget was balanced within Clinton’s first term; this due to the carefully targeted tax hikes. It took longer to generate suffucuent operating surpluses to cover the interest payments on the Reagan-Bush-Dole debt Clinton inherited.
Funny how the blog idiot and self proclaim troll CF has to back pedal and try to defend his radical leftist ideology against Clinton. But I’m so right! Because CF (Clown Face) votes straight line ticket and voted for Clinton each election.
Again! Doesn’t matter what Democrats do. You will always blindly vote for them.
Ben
I remember, (and I paraphrase)” I’ve worked harder over the past month than I’ve ever worked in my life but I just can’t find a way to balance the budget without raising taxes”
How could I forget, one of the defining moments in my political awakening. I give Clinton credit for driving me to register to vote for the first time at the age of…(somewhere in my early thirties).
Gosh, no thread on Ann Coulter’s comments yesterday? I dont suppose THIS would have anything to do with cynicism about bush’s supporters.
Oh but it is the mean old liberal bloggers who are the death of civility. Not a rightie like Ann Coulter. This from her conversation with Matt Lauer on the Today show.
LAUER: On the 9-11 widows, an in particular a group that had been critical of the administration:
” These self-obsessed women seem genuinely unaware that 9-11 was an attack on our nation and acted like as if the terrorist attack only happened to them. They believe the entire country was required to marinate in their exquisite personal agony. Apparently, denouncing bush was part of the closure process.”
And this part is the part I really need to talk to you about:
“These broads are millionaires, lionized on TV and in articles about them, reveling in their status as celebrities and stalked by griefparrazies.
I have never seen people enjoying their husband’s death so much.”
Oh, but the lefties are so damn mean….
Ya know, I am bookmarking all this civil talk and name calling from the right. Since you all hold the moral high ground and all, and are SOOOOOO civil on this blog.
I cant wait to repost some of the choice comments here.
REPUBLICANS balanced the budget?
Now there is a credible comment for ya!
When you bookmark all the name calling, don’t forget to add the ones that are leftiest on here as well. ;) Or are they justified?
KFG
Get over yourself.
The point went right over your head yesterday, I’m not gonna waste my time today.
Joe Williams,
“Clown Face.” That’s a good one! Been lying awake nights thinking of a way to hurt my feelings?
‘Back pedal’? Bullshit. Were YOU in my life in the 1990’s? You haven’t a clue about my views. More to the point, when you voted for Ralph Nader back in 2000 (I seem to recall saying you did), did you agree with EVERY one of his planks, or just with most of them?
I’ll say this: if Hilary gets the 2008 nomination, she won’t get my vote. No way.
Heckler,
“Team players, something Democrats are better at than Republicans.”
Jesus. Do you think about what you’re writing before you write it? When, since the 1968 Democratic National Convention, has party unity EVER been a Democratic strong suit, either among the electorate or elected officials?
writerdog,
Word. The signing statement doctrine and Bush’s claim to final authority over interpretation of the Constitution literally keep me awake nights.
ksfarmgrrl,
Indeed. My bad for not putting the “Defense of Marriage” and “Don’t ask.” As much as anything, these showed the limitations of triangulation and the moral quandry one enters when trying to steal the other side’s hatred and homophobia.
And I, too, am completely unregenerate in light of yesterday’s fracas. I didn’t come on this blog to make friends, and I ain’t gonna change now. I have bigger fish to fry than some weighted notion of ‘civility.’ It’s called ‘freedom.’
Gay Marriage Amendment Senate vote:
49-Yay48-Nay
60 needed for passage: Amendment fails.
How’s Bushco going to rally the Wingnuts now?
Just like that CF. NOW the base has a reason to go to the polls and defeat those 48 who didnt buy into the theocracy.
And the preznit’s poll numbers inched up a little.
It works.
But isnt it uncivil to mention that it works? People dont like being confronted with their own hypocricy.
And williams, I was speaking of the left. The righties were consistant with their usual whining about the mean old left.
Please feel free to re-post EVERY word from yesterday. I stand by all of mine.
Unlike some here, I am not sticking my finger in the air to see what is popular. The truth is the truth, no matter which way the wind is blowing.
Is that stubborn? I dont think so. No one made any substantive point yesterday other than to cry “uncivil”.
Too bad that standard isnt equally applied here, but isnt that what we have come to expect from the ann coulter crowd?
No wonder we libs are accused of being wishy-washy flip floppers. Many of us do indeed abandon correct positions in the face of criticism.
I think that is how bushco came to power. He lied, and we let him get away with it lest anyone think we were not “compassionate”.
How is that working for the country?
Actually, you need 67 votes for passage. 60 votes is just for a up and down vote for the full Senate.
This is one of the issues, for which I’m on KFG side.
Anti-gay laws or ammedments are a direct violation of human rights in my opinion. The religous zealots trying to impose their views on society through the force of government is very wrong and distrubing. It needs to stop.
…and heckler, the king of points going over your head, would that be like you missing the point on swift boat lies?
Joe, I appreciate you feeling that way on the federal hate amendment, and I appreciate your support on this issue. You have been consistent on that point, and I have indeed noticed, but not thanked you.
When even don murphy agrees, you know it is time to stop the bigotry.
ksfarmgrrl,
Indeed. I have yet to hear anyone tell me precisely where I was wrong. I WAS called a lot of names–not that there’s anything wrong with that.
Arguments aren’t your enemies, folks. Make them. Your bluster and histrionics are all about YOU, not me.
…and since we are NEVER going to get a thread on the godless ann coulter, I guess this is a good place to print the response from those 9/11 widows.
You know the ones, the 9/11 widows that coulter said she “had never seen enjoy their husband’s deaths so much”.
But of course, it is the left that is mean and inappropriate and uses death and sorrow to their advantage. I have YET to hear anyone on this blog denounce her comments from yesterday.
But I did see heckler DEFEND her comments yesterday.
Fair and balanced. heheheh.
http://www.crooksandliars.com/stories/2006/06/06/statementOfSeptember11thAdvocatesResponseToGodless.html
Is it the blog or is it my browser or is it my service? I’ve been trying to get in here for over an hour. WTF?!
CF
When I said Democrats are better team players I was speaking of the manner in which they defend one another and how they present a united front before the media.
“Jesus. Do you think about what you’re writing before you write it?” CF’s favorite phrase? Methinks.
KFG
I don’t know what to do with you. I don’t know if you missed the point because I was unclear, or because you were flying into a fit of self-righteous indignation, or you are just practiced at redirecting an arguement you cant win. Help me out here. Explain to me what you think I was saying.
If you don’t hear from me for another hour it’s not because I dont love you all, it’s because I cant get in for some reason.
I appear to have missed the biggest battle in history. And it appears to be still going on. For the record I probably would have been right in the middle of it if technology would have allowed.
This was in NO WAY me being “above the fray.
I can’t wait to see how it all played out.
I am not surprised to read the above from Heckler and to find that he is a Coulter fan.
I thought that Clinton’s “don’t ask, don’t tell” compromise was what he fell back to after making an attempt to recognize gays in the military. As I am remembering the military had a fit about his proposal and that resistence was why he backed off. So, if I am remembering correctly, the “don’t ask, don’t tell” was what he had to relent to, not what he wanted at first. It was a bad compromise. It did make everyone mad.
Heckler..Could be a government wiretap slowing things down ;)
KFG..Thanks for the link… you know, some of us wingnuts really DON’T read Ann Coulter and listen to Rush. I had no idea what she said… guess I better go read it… right after I go give Plasma.. Yuk!
Heckler,
Got me on the verbal tic. Pretty funny.
It’s interesting that you have precisely the opposite impressio of Democratic Party discipline. My brain always goes back to Lieberman’s 1998 backstabbing of Clinton, in contrast to the GOP majority’s unquestioning obesience to Great Leader. Still, GOP discipline clearly ain’t what it used to be.
CF
I guess things always look different depending on the side of the fence you’re standing on.
If by Great Leader you mean Bush it pains me to say this but the WOT/Iraq/eavesdropping on terrorist side of him is just about the only thing I like about him.
JR
I wouldnt say I’m a fan of Coulter but I did catch her little ditty with Matt Laure. I guess you could say I’m a fan of her two-fisted flame thrower style. Pretty entertaining.
Very entertaining. Here is a transcript of her “entertaining” remarks attacking women who lost their husbands in 9/11:
http://thinkprogress.org/2006/06/06/coulter-911/
Heck, rather than re-interpret your defense of ann coulter’s comments, I’ll just repost your words from yesterday and let them speak for themselves. heheh. (notice how heck and nathan love the word “context”? What the HELL kind of context does it require to see her comments as good?)
But you can read for yourselves what she said.
And heck DEFENDED her by saying:
“Give a little context to what Coulter said. You are practicing exactly what she was criticising.
The so-called 9-11 widows formed as a political group, a liberal one at that. The press gave them special attention and credibility because they made a point of hammering Bush.
Coulter was using them to make a broader point about how the left uses “vicitims” to push their agenda. “Victims” who are supposedly beyond reproach. When the right criticises the message they promote the left says “how dare you criticise this group, their husbands died on 9-11, or how dare you criticize Sheehan, here son died in the war. The left uses victims to make their arguements for them knowing that they themselves can’t stand up to the scrutiny.”
Nice heck. You defend her and say she is “entertainging”?
And you have the unmitigated gall to call out TB?
jesus wept
KFG
You’ve reposted that at least twice now and you still don’t see the irony?
Jesus would get the point, you seem incapable.
Well that is at the very core of conservatism…….bashing victims I mean.
Somone like Heckler or Joe WIlliams would say that there ARE NO VICTIMS. Victims are at fault for their status. In their and Coulters view, allowing the acknowledgement of victims would be admitting that personal responsibility is not the be all end all answer for society.
You know, homosexuality is a choice and poor people just aint working hard enough. Put the “problem” on the individual and you remove any repsonsibility to addressing it.
JR
Were you and KFG seperated at birth?
Do I call kfg “sister”? Yup.
Coulter is great – she stated that her only complaint about Rightie Terrorist McVeigh is that he didn’t blow up the NYTimes building.
Actually, it is not at all surprising the “marriage” of the religious right and conservatism.
It is in fact the perfect marriage.
You got a party that tells folks that the only thing that holds them back is themselves. If that pesky government would get outta the way and make folks pull themselves up by their bootstraps …..well they’d be better off in the end.
You got a religion that tells people they are to be thankful for what they have and not dare question or complain about it. “God” has chosen their station. Their suffering is his testing their mettle. They are not to covet anything. It’ll all be better in the next world.
SO the fundies have the perfect out for all of societies ill! It’s your fault and thats “God’s ” will! And I’m right because “God” says so!
“In her book, Coulter said, “I’ve never seen people enjoying their husbands’ deaths so much.”
The women are Kristen Breitweiser, Lorie Van Auken, Mindy Kleinberg and Patty Casazza of New Jersey. Coulter refers to them as the “Witches of East Brunswick,” the New Jersey town where two of them live.
“Having my husband burn alive in a building brought me no joy,” Van Auken told the Daily News in Wednesday’s editions in response to Coulter.
“She sounds like a very disturbed, unraveled person,” Breitweiser said. ”
Coulter is definitely a wonderful, civil, Christian!
Oh yeah Ben, but it is the left that is so mean.
Seems like that right wing meanness works GREAT with the voters.
Seems like the left’s politeness works, um, well, like Jon Stewart would say…
“Ehhhh, it works, ehhh, not so much”.
“In her book, Coulter said, “I’ve never seen people enjoying their husbands’ deaths so much.”
There’s an old saying out there…To the world you may be one person, but to one person you may be the world.
I know personally I would be absolutely devastated should I lose my husband especially in a manner that these ladies have lost their husbands.
I forgot to remember this earlier.
Coulter is rather nastily attacking the victimhood of the 911 widows?
Well there is no better way to judge a person than by their OWN standards.
I wish I had a tape of her comments on BIll O’ Reilly’s “The Factor” radio show on the occasion of USA Today dismissing her as their correspondent to the 2004 Democratic Convention! (She was dismissed after one column of her typically venomous verbal vomit) She blubbered and cried “It’s not fair! I am who I am! They knew who they were getting when they hired me! More blubbering and crying. “It’s not fair! I can’t understand why I’m being treated this way!” Wahhh
I guess a victims status as a victim is based on their own perspective? That’s another way of saying that Coulter is a bully and a hypocrite. And THAT is putting it kindly!
I’d pay real money to hear that tape again. I even emailed Annie and told her so!
A Republican is a person who doesn’t let the facts get in the way of the ‘truth.’
Fascists, all.
lawrenceliberal,
Indeed. And part of the Repuke project is to redefine the term ‘fascist’ out of existence by sanitizing Nazism so they can rebrand it as a Left wing phenomenon. Limbaugh has been doing this for a while, and now Bill O’Reilly, picking up on an old argument made by Sen. Jospeh McCarthy, has attempted to push a revisionist version of the Malmedy massacre in which the Americans cold-bloodedly execute the SS.
http://stevegilliard.blogspot.com/
Bill O’Reilly is a fucking liar and a fascist. Redundant, I know.
“Jesus died on the cross for interracial dating.” Sean Hannity
“The Founding Fathers wanted state governments to sponsor ONLY interracial dances because they called this “The UNITED States of America”! Bill O’Reilly
The are liars and scum but they ain’t Nazis for sure.
Viva La Raza Blanco!!!
I sense an irony deficit in how Ian reads the above spew from Hannity and O’Reilly.
Viva La Raza Mestizo!!!
In a sense Coulter was correct with one statement in the book, how this happen to the country as well.Every time I hear the song “I am already there” I can not help but tear up thinking about those children that were left behind . But somehow Coulter being classified as being “Right” is an oxymoron!
Was Al Zarqawi’s phone tapped?