“It makes no sense to argue that flag burning has nothing to do with constitutionally protected rights and at the same time argue for the need to change the Constitution,” columnist Rowland Nethaway argued on Friday’s Opinion page. He also raised another key concern about the proposed amendment: What qualifies as desecration? Nethaway writes: “How about a tattered flag sewn upside down onto the seat of a pair of dirty blue jeans? Is that flag desecration? How about when people fly flags that become dirty and torn, and they don’t bring them in at night or they leave them out in storms?”
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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47 Comments
Like the marriage amendment, this isn’t designed to pass either. It’s designed to placate the base. Only a small percentage of voters care about this, but it’s a small percentage that turns out on election day. And in a closely divided electorate, that percentage can be important.
So they’ll trot this out, wast a few days debating a pointless amendment, it will fail, and we’ll go on.
Well said GMC.
You just “earned your spurs” as something more than a right wing shill. For me anyway.
The flag is a thing that stands for ideals. Better to protect the ideals than a piece of fabric most likely made in China.
Who was it that said “Patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels”?
Hmm, what would they do with beaners who flew old glory upside down during their pro crminal amnesty marches?
This is just more nonsense from our joke of a government.
Viva La Raza Blanco!!!
Make the flag out of the same material they make kids pajamas out of (flame retardant). That’ll drive protesters who want to burn the flag crazy.
It should only be illegal if you intend to burn it in the room of a brain-dead accident victem that Bill Frisk is attempting to heal by faith (and emergency midnight congressional sessions).
GMC70 and JR
You guys nailed it. well done.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again – I have no intention or need to burn the flag. But make it illegal, and all of a sudden I WILL have that need and intent. And I’m sure I’m not alone.
Congress has been trying to pass a flag amendment every year since the 80’s.
It isn’t ever going to pass.
The only flag related laws I’d like to see would be those banning or severely taxing ANY flag related product not made in the USA.
I hate it when you go to Hobby Lobby or any other place that sells “patriotic” paraphernalia with a Made in China stamp on it.
Something is just not right about something that says I Love America being made by people who would love to see us destroyed.
Wordsmythe. Lighting fireworks, waving flags, and sticking magnet flags an SUV is only an illusion of patriotism and is all show regardless of where the product is made.
Real patriotism is selfishless love of country and the willingness to sacrifice for that love and the loyalty that cannot be broken.
Most people are not patriotic. They wouldn’t fight or die for their country, they have no love, and if somebody takes over, they would just accept it.
Being a Patriot is a rare trait. The American Flag doesn’t prove it, only your heart and mind does.
I disagree, Joe. Americans are complacent because no sacrifice has been required except by those who choose to serve the country. If a foreign government took over our country, bombed our houses, killed and disabled our children, arrested anyone and everyone (including children) who was suspected of anything and kept them jailed indefinitely, then I honestly believe you’d see the biggest insurgency in the world. We may be spoiled, but we love our freedom. You sell us short.
Anybody in that situation wouldn’t tolerate that. What I mean is the radical change of the Constitution. When the military, politicans, and even the President take an oath, that oath is to protect the Constitution from enemies foriegn and domestic.
If a foreign government took over the USA or even domestically some people stage a coup and change the government, most people would abide by the change, while the patriots would fight for their Constitution.
The definition of Patriot from the Merriam-Webster dictionary is: one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests.
Many Americans do not support their authority or interest. Actually it is quite the opposite, as your analogy clearly displays.
You are confusing Patriotism with “lucky to live here.”
You sell our troops short!
Blind faith in authority is dangerous and has no place in our country. What you describe is facism. Because we question we are who we are and we have freedom. Why would you suggest I sell our troops short? That makes no sense at all. What I have is no faith in George Bush and what he is doing to our country. To me, those who blindly support him are not patriotic, they’re stupid.
Joe,I see patriotism as supporting the principles that make a country great. I’m not saying you necessarily disagree with that, but your wording was a tad discomforting.
Uncritically supporting the authority –”my country, right or wrong”—is indistinguishable from being a ‘good German.’ Damoon is right.
No! You despise Bush because he is not your stripe in political ideology. If there was a leftist, such as Kerry as President, you wouldn’t question him at all and you would just blindly support him. So does that make you stupid or does that only apply to Bush and not any other President.
Nothing wrong with being critical or disagreeing with policy issues that the government or the Administration takes, but to suggest that Bush is a facist and he is ruining the country couldn’t be further than the truth.
Also you have to be stupid to think that the President of the USA single handedly has the power to directly be responsible for ruining the country. Sorry to say, but Presidents of the United States do not possess that level of power. They hardly even control things Domestically. In Foriegn Policy matters they have a bit more leeway, but most of what will control your life and the greatest authority is on the State and Local level.
And you missed the point by a large margin. Being Patriotic has nothing to do with the President. It’s the Constitution, Stupid! Patriots defend that and love that, not any one President.
Any other off the mark comments you want to make?
Rage! Again the Authority is the Constitution. Our system of Government is based on that. Nobody is above that, not even the President.
I think you guys are trying to make Bush the authoritarian figure. He is an Executive in charge of administrating the day-to-day operations of the Federal Government. He isn’t the authority that Patriots defend. A Patriot will turn on a President if the Contitution is circumvented.
Nice Try! Keep it coming.
Bush would be a dictator if if allowed. He has even admitted that.
The anti-Bush protestors get very defensive about their patriotism which is understandable given that they’re flag burning, waving Iraqi flags, have cute little signs like, “bomb Texas, not Iraq”, etc. So they love to claim that the very fact they’re dissenting makes them patriotic. Of course, that’s the biggest load of kaka I’ve ever heard — which by their standards, makes me patriotic simply because I disagree with them.Disagreeing with someone else does not make you patriotic. If it did, I could say, “America is the greatest country in the world” and you could reply, “No, it’s a festering rat hole that I hope sinks into the ocean” and that would make you patriotic. To the contrary, dissent does not equal patriotism and in a free country like the US, it doesn’t even take any courage to dissent. Take your dissent to N. Korea or Iraq & protest against the governments in those countries and see how long you last. No, that still won’t make you patriotic, but it would make you brave or stupid depending on how you look at it.
Damoon, Joe – are you two advocating terrorism?
” If a foreign government took over our country, bombed our houses, killed and disabled our children, arrested anyone and everyone (including children) who was suspected of anything and kept them jailed indefinitely, then I honestly believe you’d see the biggest insurgency in the world. We may be spoiled, but we love our freedom. You sell us short.
Posted by: Damoon | June 10, 2006 at 02:25 PM
Anybody in that situation wouldn’t tolerate that.”
guss who…………….you speak with the voice of a true fascist. Are you wearing your swastika arm band right now?
Dissent is the highest form of PATRIOTISM. Screw all of you fascists who don’t like it.
guss – I have never heard “”bomb Texas, not Iraq”,”; however I HAVE heard “bomd the NYTimes, not Oklahoma City” from your so-called patriot.
I don’t fit your sterotype, Joe. Seems like you find that frustrating. I don’t blindly support any leader, republican or democrat, conservative or liberal. Just because I think George Bush is probably the worst president ever, that doesn’t make me a liberal.I love my country, and I resent like hell that because I don’t support the current administration, you insinuate I’m not patriotic or I don’t love my country.All of us support the troops, it’s just that some of us don’t think it’s worth them dying because of Bush & Co’s bad judgement.Get over yourself and open your mind a little.
Ben, I’m not sure terrorism and insurgency is the same thing. I think people have the right to defend their homeland against foreign invaders.
I agree, Damoon, on all counts.
I’ve seen plenty of Dems who recognize problems within their own party. Not so much bashing, but definitely being vocal when they aren’t happy with their own elected officials.
If we didn’t bash each other, would we all be more apt to stop our defensive gesturing? Because sometimes I think that’s a lot of it.
As for the type of patriotism you mentioned, I’ve been saying the same all along, because that’s exactly what we’ve done to Iraq. The U.S. Govt didn’t like what the Iraq Govt and their leader was doing and just decided to invade the country and occupy it until they became the “democracy” that we decided they should become.
I SO have to steal this for a sec.
So has is that working out, guys?
I agree damoon – it’s just that the BushBots do not. I am sure that while they will excuse the blowing up of that family on a Gaza beach by Israeli artillary they will label any repsisal as terrorism. They label the insurgency in Iraq similarly; isn’t that mostly Iraqi citizens resisting occupation?
The incidence of vicious dog attacks per year in the U.S. occur with several magnitudes of frequency more than flag burnings. It’s much more of a public hazard than flag burning. I’ve never seen a flag burned and I have never met someone that has done such. Most of you (or perhaps all of you) can say the same. Yet, I had to pepper spray someone’s dog today that was clearly trying to attack me in College Hill park. How about a constitutional amendment to make dog owners behave responsibly? Of course, I’m not at all being serious with that suggestion, but clearly the dog amendment would do far more public good than the flag burning amendment. The first Bush president pushed the same flag burning amendment when he entered office. It also failed. It all began as a result of some nut that burned a flag at a demonstration at the 1984 G.O.P. convention in Dallas. His conviction was overturned in the courts. Flag burning (other than the official disposal means) is an extremely low probability event. Far more children will unfortunately drown in swimming pools this summer, yet we don’t ban swimming pools and that is much more awful than a flag burning. It just seems logical that the amendment process should be reserved for more serious structural errors such as slavery, women’s sufferage, succession to the presidency, etc.
Well Damoon! I don’t fit your sterotype either. Seems like that frustrates you, because all you want to do is bust my chops and I always come back and you have nothing but retric to say.
You keep on contending that this is a Pro-Bush vs Anti-Bush issue. I have repeatedly posted that Patriotism has nothing to do with the President. Are you not getting that? Or are you trying your hardest to force this issue as a Bush issue?
As with Ben comment about advocating terrorism. Here is my first sentence of my response to Damoon. “Anybody in that situation wouldn’t tolerate that. ” June 10, 2006 at 02:52 PM
WSU Professor! I couldn’t agree with you more. Excellent post.
If someone would burn the flag in a lot of areas around here, they would be taking a physical safety risk. A lot of folks don’t see it as a free speech issue and wouldn’t take too kindly to it.
However I also agree with previous posters that the movement for an ammendment to prevent flag burning is politcal pandering. It is not high enough on the list to seriously pursue.
A patriot is someone who is willing to pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of our liberty — and, believe it or not, that’s a real quote, though it’s hard to imagine any Massachusetts Democrat saying such a thing today.Apophis, stating “screw all of you fascists who don’t like it is a “dissent” statement but it not patriotic, and it’s certainly not a useful contribution to anything in life. Being a dissent is a disease of ignorance, of morbid minds; enthusiasm of the free and buoyant. Education and free discussion are the antidotes of both. Try avoiding attack others, Apophis and Ben Huie, you don’t do it very well at all. But I expect that you will find this impossible since your party can only agree on one thing “Bush is bad.”Attacking Bush and the real patriots without offering alternatives or a better way to get there is just whining. Could it possibly be that you actually stand for nothing?
It’s stupid that people burn the American flag. The American flag is the symbol of America, i.e. the nation, the country. If you’re pissed off at the government then why don’t you go burn down a flag with the FBI, CIA, or Presidential seal? Why burn the symbol of our nation to express your discontent for the government?
Having been born on Flag Day, my opinion carries more weight. ::grin::
It’s a flag, folks, and no one could have been prouder of it than I was as a kid. After all, I can remember one birthday where I stood at the front door and watched the flag waving near the porch, and then the guy came and delivered my little wading pool, my birthday gift from my parents. Not the best present I remember getting, but by far the most memorable.
But it’s still a flag, a piece of cloth or plastic, and still only a symbol. Our currency, though more usable, is somewhat the same–it carries the seal of the U.S.–yet people are allowed to burn it (in more ways than one) without anyone crying foul.
If people want to burn the flag, that in itself is a symbol of their protest. Without that flag burning, the protest might not be noticed, but, boy oh boy, flick a Bic near it and people go nuts!
If everyone could make a law about whatever wasn’t right to them, you wouldn’t be able to go out of your own home…and your home wouldn’t necessarily be where you wanted it to be. Let’s get real. Let the nearly non-existent flag burners do what makes them happy. Let the flag wavers do the same. And let’s leave the constitutional ammendments and politics out of it.
My .04.
guss……….you ,in your RW narrow view of the world misunderstand. I intended the post to be an attack on you. You are a fascist and that is the heart of the problem. Bush and his supporters typify this shift from democracy toward a dictatorship. I have never been a supporter of flag burning, I don’t see the purpose, but the more the RW makes this another of their “wedge” issues the more I am willing to allow it. Extremism in any other form is dangerous. The RW and its extremism in this country are every bit as dangerous as the Taliban. Stop wrapping the flag around yourself, holding the bible, and calling it “patriotism”.
Joe, You called me a lib and stated that I don’t love my country. Them thares fightin’ words, my dear.I love my country and will personally punch out anyone who questions my patriotism. We have great thing going on here, and I don’t want it destroyed by those who are motivated by greed and power.Facism is a dangerous, powerful way to manipulate the masses, just accuse anyone who doesn’t go along with the government agenda of being unpatriotic and declare them enemys of the country. “You’re either with us or against us”.Who buys into more of the rhetoric, Joe? You or me?
“… It is always a simple matter to drag people along whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country.”~ The testimony of Hermann Goering (Adolf Hitler’s vice-fuhrer) at the Nuremberg trials
“Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind.
And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so.
How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar.”- Julius Caesar
And yet one more quote regarding patriotism, but I’ll let everyone guess at who said it, just for fun.
“In America, the true patriots are those who dare speak the truth to power.”
Well, let’s see; if we burn a flag, what actually happens? Some guy at a flag manufacturing company gets a bit of overtime! I’d much rather our critics burn a few flags than people!
“A Patriot will turn on a President if the Contitution is circumvented.”
Hmmm. . .funny thing, I was doing that back in December, for that exact reason. Yes, I know you’ve taken a dislike to Bush. Glad to see you’re one of us, patriot!
“Nice Try! Keep it coming.”
Keep WHAT “coming”? What was I trying to do?
???
Absolutly nothing will be gained by passing a flag burning amendment. It’s a ridiculous attempt by Bushco to whip up the populace and raise his flagging numbers. Same for the gay marriage issue and same for the immigration issue.
Damoon,”I love my country and will personally punch out anyone who questions my patriotism.”
Carefull girl, you’ll set them off. That sounds like violence to me, lol.
XXX, I’m harmless, I only punch people with words. Hope you can come to the meet up.Great post, RD! It’s amazing how history repeats itself…..over and over and over again. Like the song says, when will we ever learn?
Apophis, you’re very ignorant about what fascism is and your attempt to claim Bush is a dictator show the very essence of your stupidity. As I already stated, you are not very good at attacking others but what can be expected from someone that actually stands for nothing. You are the foe that real patriots have to oppose to assure the survival and the success of our liberty.
Hey Guss… I’m going to GUESS that your screen name is supposed to be “Guess Who.” Or maybe your name is Gus? Either way, you’re spelling it wrong, you dim-witted moron!
Guss, I must admit while I don’t see Bush and company as a mirror of the Taliban, he seems to have the same personality traits of some former dictators. The identification of anyone who disagrees with him as an enemy of the country, not willing to consider the expertise or opinions of others who may not see things his way, being dishonest in order to achieve his agenda, and not much respect for the protection of our constitutional freedoms. This is America, but we’re starting to stray from the path that has made us a great nation. It’s really scares me.
Guss,I’m 61 years old, have attended many protest rallies and known many dissenters in my time, and I’ve never seen a flag burnt or desecrated. I can only conclude that it’s such a rare event that it’s really not worth the effort to pass laws about. It does, however, seem to be a great propaganda ploy to manipulate you right-wing nut cases.
Jed,I agree it is a waste of time and money for congress to be considering such a thing as flag amendment. Since I’m not a right wing nut case hopefully it will blow over quickly as the gay marriage amendment joke did. But these things are just in committees and the media is stirring up the left and right by treating them as major debates.Damoon,I don’t see the personality traits you do with Bush but we’ve not strayed from the path that has made us a great nation. I have the opportunity to travel to Europe for business and am treated everywhere with respect and consideration. Those people that bring up Bush have their liberal ideas just as you have here but they agree that Bush has done what he said he would do and that is rid the free world of terrorists. Some, as you, don’t like how he is doing it, but he’s the decider for 3 more years.I do agree blind faith is dangerous but disagreeing with someone else does not make you or them patriotic. I disagree with you saying Bush doesn’t consider the expertise or opinions of others or that he is achieving his goals dishonestly or that he doesn’t respect our constitutional freedoms. Because I disagree with you does that make me a patriot?BTW what is a sconad? Never mind, I don’t really care. I’m done with this blog.
What? Running away so soon? Just one question, how has Bush rid the free world of terrorists? If that were true, why are we still fighting a war?I agree, just disagreeing with a leader doesn’t make one patriotic, but questioning the course our country has taken and caring enough to speak out against actions that threaten the values our country is based on, seems patriotic to me. Wraping yourself in the flag doesn’t prove that you love your country, it just means you’ve put on the blinders so you don’t have to think. That’s the easy way out.