I recall seeing something lately saying that Iraqi visa and passport apps are through the roof. If I recall correctly, the demographic slicing of the data showed that nearly all the increase in apps was due to applications by middle class Iraqis.

Not the rich, and obviously not the poor. I doubt the poor were ever allowed to dip a hand or twenty into one of GW Bush’s famously generous duffle bags filled with US taxpayer dollars. The poor are always left behind.

I guess we’ll find out soon if middle class Iraqis want the passports for trips to Egyptian resorts or, just as in South Vietnam, to escape the lot of the poor (i.e., just in case): being stuck in the middle of the Mahdi army vs. Saddam’s Republican Guard and its cowboy al-Qaida “special forces unit.”

Given how much money the Bush administration has sent over in duffel bags and briefcases never to be accounted for, looks like those plans are right on schedule.

Figures.

The fact is Nathan, as soon as the US stopped air support, South Vietnam collapsed like a wet washrag.

The same thing happened in China in 1949.

Why? Because the reds are so tough and the whites are so weak?

No, it was because the communists WERE the nationalists in the sense that they were the ones fighting foreign occupation and domination.

The corrupt gov’t of Chiang Kai-Shek only cared about lining its own pockets. Same with South Vietnam. That’s capitalism for you. And the fact is that the top dogs–like Chiang–all bailed out and lived off the foreign aid they stole.

The communists actually formed a viable rebellion against foreign power. Mao was the only guy with the guts to fight the Japs in China. Ditto for Ho Chi Minh against the Japs and the French.

The question is, why did we ever support the French against the Vietnamese nationalists in the first place. They weren’t even communist until the so-called “free world” backed their European colonial masters.

What were they supposed to do?

As for your Vietnamese friends who are all hopping mad about the loss of their country . . . well, gee, why didn’t they do what the communists did?

Start a rebel government engaging in insurgency against the dictatorship.

Nah, they’d rather bail and live the good life over here.

Okay, they made their choice.

Now they should quit their bitching.

Yes, nathan, it touches a nerve. I lost too many friends to that stupidity and see it happening all over again.

Obviously the VietNamese community here are the ones who were on our side. However, they are a minority.

I dated a girl in college who was a VietNamese refugee. She had fled from religious persecution in Saigon. She didn’t fly either flag, and for very good reasons having fled Saigon persecution in the 60s.

Who am I accusing? The same people my veteran friends did.

As for the continued oppression, people I know who fly back and forth describe as authoritarian, not totalitarian. It is more free than under the BushBot House of Saud.

“”I bet you enjoy it everytime you hear of an Iraqi civilian getting killed don’t you?

You get some sick satisfaction about it.”

Why else would you constantly throw around how America blew up a civilian airliner every chance you get?

Why else would you compare My Lai to the countless millions killed by the North as if it was equal?

You sit here and talk about all your friends who were there and in the next sentence talk about all the atrocites that America is quilty of…

Who are you accusing of these things Ben? Not your friends are you?

Or was it just all the other guys over there that did the horrible things you think they did?

Do you think that 90% plus of the Vietnamese community here are liars Ben?

Whose flag do you think most of them fly in their parades and homes? The North’s or the South’s?

You have not said much about the continued oppression in your so called “healing” nation yet either.

By FOREIGN POLICY & The Center For American Progress

July/August 2006

Is the United States winning the war on terror? Not according to more than 100 of America’s top foreign-policy hands. They see a national security apparatus in disrepair and a government that is failing to protect the public from the next attack.

http://web0.foreignpolicy.com/issue_julyaug_2006/TI-index/index.html

Despite today’s highly politicized national security environment, the index results show striking consensus across political party lines. A bipartisan majority (84 percent) of the index’s experts say the United States is not winning the war on terror. Eighty-six percent of the index’s experts see a world today that is growing more dangerous for Americans. Overall, they agree that the U.S. government is falling short in its homeland security efforts. More than 8 in 10 expect an attack on the scale of 9/11 within a decade. These dark conclusions appear to stem from the experts’ belief that the U.S. national security apparatus is in serious disrepair. “Foreign-policy experts have never been in so much agreement about an administration’s performance abroad,” says Leslie Gelb, president emeritus of the Council on Foreign Relations and an index participant. “The reason is that it’s clear to nearly all that Bush and his team have had a totally unrealistic view of what they can accomplish with military force and threats of force.”

———————————–

Foreign Policy, that famously lefty rag, prolly just hates America. ;)

As for “I bet you enjoy it everytime you hear of an American soldier getting killed don’t you?

You get some sick satisfaction about it.” you are even more full of shit than I had thought. Shove it up your BushBot ass!

Is that the only thing you have? My Lai?

One retarded event on our side hardly compares to the countless atrocities committed by the North.

What other atrocites is it that we did which involved the assasination of thousands of people based purley on their political affliation?

did we kill not only the teachers, government officials, civil servents and their famailes too? Like the North did when they invade?

All your coments so far point to you being glad the North won Ben.

So far all you do is attack our actions and what we do.

Whose side were you on Ben?

Everytime you talk it is always Americas fault ben.

I bet you enjoy it everytime you hear of an American soldier getting killed don’t you?

You get some sick satisfaction about it.

As for all the other things you refer to such atrocities were carried out by both sides. Remember My Lai? Oh yea, that doesn’t count in BushBotLand.

And the “alleged” effects of 2,3,7,8-TCDD have been extremely well documented. Oh yea, that doesn’t count either – it was studied by scientists. Like with tobacco, there is “controversy”

Lord help you when you get into a discussion with him about Vietnam.

I would love to see you sit and talk with him Ben.

You are not the only one who knows people.

I don’t think I have met but one person who supported the oppresive government there.

I had a friend in the Marines who had to lie about his service here because when he wnet back to visit family his life would be in jeapordy if the government found out about his military service here.

It is pretty nice “healing” for all those seeking to be anything but budhist when they are locked up and killed.

I wish that when the North invaded people like Pol Pot hadn’t come to power killing millions of his own people.

I wish that the North didn’t assassinate all the thousands upon thousands of public officials, teachers, and civil servents when they took over.

I wish that when the North invaded they didn’t cause one of the biggest refugee problems which resulted in many thousands of people loosing everything including their lives.

I am sorry about the one or two people you know who were hurt personally or the “alleged” people effected by chemical warfare…

However, it pales in comparison to the utter gross loss of human life caused and brought about by our leaving the South out to dry to an invasion by the North.

I suppose it is a bit easier for that “war-torn” land to heal when any and all opposistion was systematically killed and silenced by an oppresive and ruthless government.

How about you? Are you happy with all those things?

I am happy that my co-workers can now travel back home to visit their relatives. I am happy that that war-torn land is healing. How about you?

I wonder…

Are you glad that the North won the war?

I had family members in VietNam. I had many close friends there. I learned a lot from them, especially about the ARVN. How many of your close friends were there? How many came home in boxes? Without legs? (only to get beaten by the LAPD)

As Zeit noted (from a supporter of the US involvement) “the rest of them ran like little girls . . .”

I fear the quarter-million ARI will do likewise.

As for your BushBot thinking; I will quote Rhett Butler “frankly, I don’t give a damn”

What point are you trying to prove here?

Mine so far was to show how Ben was trying to distort the truth to further his comparison of Iraq to vietnam.

I suppose now that you have entered the discussion I can discuss this with you too.

I am not arguing that the south didn’t loose pretty badly to the North. My comments were in response to Ben saying the South was defeated because of their lack of will to fight. Are you trying to prove that or agree with it, becuase I don’t see anything you posted which supports it.

You say they ran like little girls. That is one way of mischaracterizing what happened.

2 years had passed since the peace accords were signed. Do either of you have any idea of what happened in those 2 years?

The North was being equiped by the soviets and restoring much of their army.

The South was recieving less military aide from America because of Congress and because of the arab-oil embargo and our sending more aide to Israel.

The South was getting weaker while the North was getting stronger.

The North already had a presence in the central highlands from the first time they tried to mount an invasion which failed.

Yes, much of the South Vietnamese army collapsed, because of poor planning, communication, adn their wanting to save their families.

If your point is that the North defeated the south, I am not here to debate that, it is obvious. Look at vietnam today.

so what is your point?

Did you actually have something to refute what I said and prove what you did?

My snide comments about where you got yoru information were only a part of my post.

If you ability to reason as a scientist is anything like what I have seen on about every other topic you try to talk about, I am not too sure about your take science anymore either.

ONE, count ‘em, ONE division stayed and fought–the rest of them ran like little girls . . .

“General Smith has detailed the consequences of that betrayal, as in March 1975 President Nguyen Van Thieu made the fateful decision to abandon the Central Highlands, and the whole South Vietnamese defense structure began to unravel. But not all of the ARVN collapsed. The 18th ARVN Infantry Division at Xuan Loc, some 40 miles northeast of Saigon, put up a valiant struggle.

From March 17, 1975, to April 5, 1975, the 18th ARVN Division held its ground, virtually destroying the 6th, 7th and 341st NVA divisions in the process. Only when the NVA brought in its 325th Division and also began moving its 10th and 304th divisions into place did the 18th ARVN Division finally give way. But it was too late, and by the last week in April NVA divisions were at the gates of Saigon. It was obvious to all that the end was at hand.”

http://historynet.com/vn/blthebitterend/index1.html

Did Hank tell you that, Nathan? Cause he’s the only person on earth that could believe that.

How many weeks was it that the South was over-run after the US pulled troops out . . . was it weeks or HOURS?