How heartbreaking that the two missing U.S. soldiers — Pfc. Kristian Menchaca (in photo) and Pfc. Thomas L. Tucker — were found dead today, reportedly “killed in a barbaric way.” And how predictable that al-Qaida in Iraq has claimed responsibility for the murders, which it said were personally carried out by Abu Hamza al-Muhajer, the successor to slain leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. This outcome underscores the brutality and fanaticism of our enemies in this war. For many Americans, it also will further underscore the need to find an honorable way out of this difficult conflict as soon as possible.
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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121 Comments
Dear Rhonda,
“For many Americans, it also will further underscore the need to find an honorable way out of this difficult conflict as soon as possible.”
This is the idiotic conclusions by Americans that give the terrorists hope. This is precisely the result they strive for with their terrorists attacks on us.
Not one of our captured servicemen have survived. Not one. But the left-wing propaganda machine calls our treatment of the prisoners in Gitmo ‘torture’.
Hank
You’re so right, Hank.
If the terrorists know we’re going to occupy their country forever, then they’ll just give up.
A brilliant insight, sir!
I dont know why I am bothering to say this but:
I support the troops. This is a horrible tragedy. I do not hate america, I hate al queida. I do not support torture in any form. I do not support the terrorists.
Having said all that, this is a link to a post with very bad language, so if you dont like it, dont click it.
The rude pundit was unfortunately prophetic in the first paragraph. So hank, my only response to torture is this:
http://rudepundit.blogspot.com/2006/06/two-captured-american-soldiers-and.html
The best way to honor these soldiers is to stop this insane nonsense right now.
The ego can be sacrificed that they might remain alive.
A right-minded person is disgusted with Gitmo, which is the American way to feel, as is doing a political tap-dance on this soldiers life.
To act honorably is to save the next soldier’s life.
Hank, what about the pfc we rescued from a hospital then had to admit it was all staged for the cameras?
She’d been abandoned by her captors or something, poor kid.
I do believe that at least one captured GI has survived both aQ/Iraq and President Bush’s ineptitude there.
For the record, I also believe it’s a damn shame the 101st AB sees 2 of its soldiers taken alive only to be dishonored in death by the enemy.
That one I lay up away from the Army and to the president, though, for:1) Botching the occupation through ignorance.2) Then telling the insurgents to “bring it on.”3) All while failing to adhere to the Geneva conventions, thus driving away new coalition members, and failing to realize the concomitant setting of a poor ethical tone in the White House.4) All resulting in a failure to provide sufficient security for even the US Army 101st Airborne 39 months after “Mission Accomplished” in Iraq.
Heaven help any US diplomat caught outside the Green Zone.
In war, every person who engages deeply, who absorbs a “WE MUST BEAT THE ENEMY ethos and accepts it, becomes a fanatic and a brute. In the 80’s there was a book about the “reptilian” part of our brain. When it takes over, we think differently. We become irrational.
There is a small clique of people seeking to control the Middle East oil reservoir. To control it is to have massive power. It is to generate fabulous wealth. These people are game players who are willing to risk triggering WWIII. If the risk isn’t taken, the power will go elsewhere, i.e. to China. These people THINK they are SMART. But they aren’t smart enough to figure out how to develop alternative energy, and control that. So rather than support alternative energy development, and let its control diffuse, they want to lock us into war halfway across the planet from the U.S.
After 9/11 Bush said the terrorists hated America and wanted to destroy our way of life. He wasn’t talking about everyday Americans or democracy. He was talking about Arab terrorists wanting to destroy American global capitalism and hegemony, because they perceived this to adversely affect them.
Maybe, if we reduced our horizons, and managed our domestic affairs better, we could be happier, live without crippling fear, and get along better with the rest of the planet.
The insurgents are this brutal because they believe that the U. S. has no stomach for it. Just wait for the video to appear on al-Qaida TV. (Al-Jazeera)
If our leaders show weakness or lack of committment to finish this, we can expect more.
The last tape Osama Bin Laden made offer a truce with regard to hostilities.
Pretty scary.
Anybody in government check that out, or would that interrupt planning and get into the way of the “Project?”
heartlander
“Maybe, if we reduced our horizons, and managed our domestic affairs better, we could be happier, live without crippling fear, and get along better with the rest of the planet.”
You mean like we were doing before World War II?
I’ve got an idea…lets just leave the Middle East, hell just pull our troops home from the entire planet and just ignore the rest of the world. Then things would be so much more peacefull.
The obvious analysis is that the so-called “insurgency” or is it “terrorists” { keeps switching back and forth } was trying to fight the invaders of their country { Iraq }.
Only a right-winger could be stupid enough to say that having these two guys brutally killed justifies our fighting this war.
Common-sense says that if they weren’t there, they wouldn’t have been killed.
I guess common-sense is the first thing that’s got to go for you to support the gung-ho war position.
When Ariel Sharon coined the word “terrorist” to describe the Palestinian defenders, I’m sure he had no idea that that word would spread and cover-up just about any war-crime faster than HIV can travel.
Now Bush has his “war on terror” and it’s not even a noun.
Catchy “slogan” though.
Did anyone NOT expect this outcome?How did these guys get captured?Was it the insurgency that Rumsfeld called “dead enders” so many deaths before?
Im sorry, but for some of you who were dancing in the streets when Zarqawi got his last week this is the price that came at. Part of it anyway. Hope you enjoyed the little hurrah bush moment. It was dearly bought.
The Orwellian version of justified perpetual war is realized in the “war on terror” that creates half a dozen new enemies for each we kill and ups the ante for atrocity at each incident. The fact that Zarqawis replacement carried this atrocity out personally shows that they too take things personally.
END THIS!
Iraq has 25 million people. Set a date. Tell them to get ready by that date and END THIS!! Cause it is only gonna get worse!
“If our leaders show weakness or lack of committment to finish this, we can expect more.”
Does “finishing” the war on terror with Al Qaida mean we have to kill every last one of them? It might take a while to do that – I would guess several generations.
Or, did you mean “finishing” the war in Iraq. I am not convinced that if we stayed there 100 more years or 100 more days that our occupation would do anything to prevent the civil war that will erupt as soon as we leave.
I think the best “solution” (using that term loosely) would be to allow three seperate states in Iraq with a U.N. or some other type of administration to split up the oil wealth.
The downsides to the 3-state Iraq is 1) the Shi’ite state will be unduly influenced by Iran. 2) The Sunni state could be unduly effected by Al Qaida. 3) Turkey would have a fit about a Kurd state.
Al Qaida may not really be in a position to influence the Sunni state because they recognize the killing of other Muslims (even if they are the heretic Shi’ites) cuts into their Arab support. Terrorism is as much politics as it is barbarism.
It seems to me that at some point one has to ask the question of which bad outcomes is the worst? And then select the best among the undesirable alternatives.
Check this video.http://atvs.vg.no/player/player.php?id=3683&category_id=1&keyword=&bandwidth=605874&bandwidth_detected=1
Here are the words.
“So I grabbed her little sister and pulled her in front of me.As the bullets began to flyThe blood sprayed from between her eyesAnd then I laughed maniacallyThen I hid behind the TVAnd I locked and loaded my M-16And I blew those little f***ers to eternity.And I said
Durka Durka Mohammed JihadSherpa Sherpa Bak AllahThey should have known they were f***ing with a Marine.”
The bodies of these poor guys are in such a state that DNA is needed to positively ID them. What does this tell us?
Why did they tell this? Why not just report that they were tragically found not alive?
Cause this is supposed to make us madder than hell. (Can ya tell it worked with me?) and gin us up that by God those boys aint gonna die in vain! Our already overused and stressed troops are gonna be madder than hell too and they got a right to be. SO pretty soon we’ll hear about ANOTHER atrocity only this time it’ll be from our side. And on it goes.
A link to a page on terrorist motivations:
http://www.terrorism-research.com/goals/
Also a page on the difference between an insurgency and terrorism:
http://www.terrorism-research.com/insurgency/
“This is the idiotic conclusions by Americans that give the terrorists hope. This is precisely the result they strive for with their terrorists attacks on us.”
Hello? Give the terrorists hope? The only thing they “hope” for is to die a violent death for their cause! Our being there gives them that! It IS the cause. Oh but hell let’s keep building bases there! We can keep feeding them their shot at martydom for the next 20 years!
Hank,I respect your opinion, but I think you are wrong. The war in Iraq will do nothing to deter terrorism. In fact, it has made us more susceptable to attack. Why? Because we are starting to get other factions of the muslim nations pissed at us, and they all want their pound of flesh. These people have been at war for over two thousand years. They take their time doing things, and are probably planning another 9/11 on some American target for three or four years down the road.
Al Quida had nothing to do with Iraq, but they are there now, doing what they do best: recruit. The fodder for their terrorist organization is now legion, and we helped them get their recruits in Iraq.
Mark my words: Even if we set up a democracy in Iraq and leave the country in five or ten years, it will revert back to what it was prior to our invasion within two years. Then what have our soldiers died for?
The muslim nation doesn’t think as we do. We are an amalgam of different cultures, so we have a Governmental organization that fits our mold. The Muslims think in terms of feudalisms. They think in terms of monarchies, war lords. To them, democracy is as foreign as walking on the moon. We got no business being over there, period!
You already know my feelings for our troops. I hate to see them dying for nothing.
Oh we got “buisiness” over there alright Walker. Problem is none of the people making the money are gonna get tortured and killed.And you are right. That is a whole different world over there. It took thousands of years to make and it aint gonna change significantly in any way in anything less than say two generations come and go. That’s about 80 years. Better get comfortable with stories like this or get out.
Well now, here is a surprise. It was a RIGHT wing blogger who first attacked the uncle of one of the dead heros.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2006/06/20/rightwing-blogger-smears_n_23427.html
Well said, heartlander! You, too, JR! And all the rest of you who see the truth in this, instead of the truthiness.
Why is it cutting and running to give this country that we induced into democracy the chance to prove they can live it?
No matter what we do, there will be civil war. There IS civil war as we sit here, typing away while our troops and others are dying. What price is the “freedom” of another country, run and managed by us?
We toppled their leader, we squashed their army, we’ve trained their new army and chosen their leaders. We given thousands of lives of our men and women. What more do you all want?
Peace would be nice, but peace doesn’t make money for the money-hungry.
What will it take? How many thousands of lives? How many dollars gone to Halliburton and the rest, not to our own people? How many people must lose their homes, lose members of their family in in THIS country?
I agree with JR.
END THIS!
Excellent, JM!
These guys got hit with an OLD tactic. There were 3 Humvees. A diversionary attack drew 2 of them off and left the 3rd alone. Then the 3rd was assaulted. Not bashing the troops but it is hard to believe they got the worst of this OLD trick.
Another thought? In this day of personal GPS and such, why does each soldier not have some sort of transponder whereby they could be located? I’d think such an item would be basic issue. Is it possible they had such an item and their captors took it away?
Good link kfg. The Uncle better watch out or he will get the Cindy Sheehan treatment from the right.
Well said yourself RD.
There is no way to “win”. There are only degrees of losing.
Idea:Announce a timetable for withdrawal… with the proviso that we will stay 1 additional month–and add 1000 additional troops–for every American soldier killed after the timetable is announced.Then for the insurgents, it’s damned if they do, damned if they don’t.
JR RD
Bird-brain-Bush has never been broke, so he doesn’t understand the concept.
He never had to buy gas for the car. Or the car.
“Mark my words: Even if we set up a democracy in Iraq and leave the country in five or ten years, it will revert back to what it was prior to our invasion within two years. Then what have our soldiers died for?”
Halliburton?
Oops, forgot the link for the story on how the senate killed the bill to police haliburton.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132×2687685
KFG
That’s how gamblers lose everything, by chasing a bad deal.
Stockbrokers do the same thing.
You take your loss and move on.
Are you kidding me?
JR,
You are going to sit here and talk about how they got hit by an old tactic?
You are a miserable little man.
I sometimes wonder how you can still say you are on “my” side or the troops side.
Every chance some of you people get you take every single thing that happens bad and cry for us to leave.
Now JR is going to insult those soldiers for being hit by an old tactic?
The ONLY WAY these terrorists can win is because of YOU.
Do you think they can defeat us on the battlefield?
The Marines, Soldiers, Sailors, and Airmen serving there are not being defeated. They win and continue to win the battles they fight there.
For you all to sit here like some Sunday afternoon quarterbacks and yelling and screaming for us to withdrawl every time something happens is exactly what they want.
You are the only ones providing the enemy with the hope and encouragement they need.
They are not getting any hope or encouragement from the brave men and women in the armed forces there. We continue to fight and prevail there.
So go ahead and keep chanting for withdrawl and exploit every thing that happens bad there. That is the only way they can ever dream of defeating us.
As tragic as the loss of life is, this is a WAR. Compared to any other major conflict in our history the loss of life here is minimal. I contirbute that to the brave men and women who are fighting.
You can claim to support the troops all you want to, but to me you are full of crap.
JR,
Don’t ever sit here and try to tell me that you support me. If it was my fellow Marines that got killed like this and you were back here talking about how it was an old tactic like they should have been able to avoid it…
MrControversy,
What would that timetable be based on?
It is all easy and grand for you to sit here talking about timetables… but they don’t mean anything when things are not for certain in the future.
Why don’t you go over and talk to the same guys who just killed two of our soldiers and see what they think of your little proposal.
I am sure they would be very eager and willing to discuss it with you over dinner…
JR,
“There is no way to “win”. There are only degrees of losing.”
Spoken like the little coward you are.
How can you say you support the troops yet say they are unable to win?
JR
“SO pretty soon we’ll hear about ANOTHER atrocity only this time it’ll be from our side. And on it goes.”
Respect our troops huh?
You are already expecting them to commit an atrocity no less.
Please don’t pretend to support the troops or me anymore with your stupid remarks.
Flike,
The President doesn’t make all the decisions in missions or the way things operate. He sets the goals and it is up the the Miltary to acheive them.
Keeping that in mind:
“1) Botching the occupation through ignorance.”
I know many of you seem to think that the President is like LBJ sitting at some drawing board moving all the pieces…but he is not.
There are many levels of mission planning and execution from the pentagon down.
You don’t insult the President with your comments, you insult the military.
“2) Then telling the insurgents to “bring it on.”"
Perhaps we should have got on our hands and knees and begged them to not hurt us while we are there. That will show them an image of strength.
What the hell do you think the Marines sit around and say to each other about the enemy? BRING IT ON!
“3) All while failing to adhere to the Geneva conventions,”
What? What part?
“thus driving away new coalition members, and failing to realize the concomitant setting of a poor ethical tone in the White House.”
That is just you. Those of us who actually read the geneva convention know better.
“4) All resulting in a failure to provide sufficient security for even the US Army 101st Airborne 39 months after “Mission Accomplished” in Iraq.”
Once again, you insult the military. You are saying that they are incompitent, not the President.
Even then, you act like things are a complete failure. It is war. Not everything is going to work 100% perfectly. It doesn’t help when people like you feel the need to exploit every mistake as the incompetence of the President.
It is only because of people like you the enemy has hope.
And once again, the mission to which that sign was flying for was accomplished.
I’ve come to realize what big cowards we have on this blog. Not afraid of war. Afraid of WINNING a war, especially with Bush at the helm. Afraid of what it does to a political party. To HEll with freeing 25 million people from oppression, look what it does to a political party.
Heckler,
Did you miss JR’s comment?
Apparently to him we can’t win. Apparentlty everytime someone dies it will be exploited by people here who will use it to bash the President and their own anti-war agenda.
It is sad when you need soldiers to die to support your cause and you use every death to do just that.
I am sure you make the terrorists proud.
“The President doesn’t make all the decisions in missions or the way things operate. He sets the goals and it is up the the Miltary to acheive them.”Posted by: Nathan | June 20, 2006 at 08:09 PM
Who is accountable for the bottom line, Nathan?
The president, or his generals?
Oh you want to talk about accountabilty now?
I think you said something about ignorance and bothing the operation.
Acountability is something completely different.
The other day we had a Marine who got a speeding ticket in a miltary vehicle.
Was Bush accountable for that too?
Let me guess, everything is the Presidents fault becuase he sent the miltary to war?
Ah yes… Logic at it finest… or is it irrational hate and discontent?
The president or his generals?
AFLACK… AFLACK… AFLACK ALERT!!!
Flike,
The bottom line is not what this was about.
This is about you and other people here exploiting every thing that happens in Iraq by using it to blame Bush.
The terrorists thank you!
Are all Marines this weaselly?
nathan,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,your comments are why the republican party is such a JOKE. You claim and ctiticism of the administration is helping the “enemy”! ROFLMOA!
Don’t play at sanctimony with me Nathan. You may also exuse yourself from judging me.
I said that the troops are gonna be mad as hell about this incident and given their difficult circumstances their might likely be another atrocity. I hope I am wrong.
Do not presume to tell me or anyone else that I do not support the troops. I suppose bush supports them better by sending them to die for Halliburton?
You support them by already accusing them of going to commit an atrocity?
How is that support?
Don’t try to weasel your way out of it JR. Be a man, not the little coward you are, and answer the question.
JR never accused anyone of anything nathan……………..you’re just looking for an excuse to accuse non-supporters of bush of being treasonous. GET A LIFE!
Apophis,
Get tired of the abortion thread so you come up here?
I claimed the crap spewed by people here is giving the enmey the hope they need.
I can assure you that it is not our brave men and women that people here claim to support who are giving the enemy any hope.
Nathan,”Let me guess, everything is the Presidents fault becuase he sent the miltary to war?”
Well, yes it is. He is the one that made the decision to send our troops to Iraq under false pretenses, ie, there were no WMD, and he and his staff knew it. That is an irrefutable fact.
He also stated Iraq was in bed with Al Quida. That turned out to be false. Then there was the matter of the uranium connection. Turned out there was none.
So, in effect, it is his fault. Our troops are dying, and I for one, think they are dying for nothing, and it breaks my heart.
As I stated earlier, this war in Iraq will do NOTHING to stop terrorism. In fact, IMHO, it will make it worse. Killing terrorist will not stop terrorism unless you kill them all. That has about as much chance of happening as all Muslims converting to Christianity.
Terrorism will always exist in one form or another. Trying to convert Muslim countries to democracy is crazy-think. It has no chance of happening in the long run. Let them do what they have been doing for the last twenty centuries. If they want change, it will happen, but they are the ones that will have to do it, not us.
how is it giving the “enemy the hope they need”?
and nathan……….I will follow you and your fascist brethren to the ends of the Earth to tell you that YOU are fanatics and you are WRONG!
Unfortunately JM Walker,
No matter how much you have to say to yourself before bed everynight the Bush lied to go to war he did not.
You willfully distort the context of the situation and cherry pick things and then distort them too so you can accuse this President.
That doesn’t make it any more undisputable than JR’s supposed support for the troops.
Right now this is about more than just killing terrorists.
It is about leaving Iraq in a place where they can fend for themselves.
I know many of you favor the whole leave them to their demise additude, but fortunatley we have leadership in the oval office who sees otherwise.
Nathan,”The Marines, Soldiers, Sailors, and Airmen serving there are not being defeated. They win and continue to win the battles they fight there.”
You know, that’s the same thing that happened in Vietnam.
Nathan, this is a legit question:Can you tell me of an instance in history where an insurgency was defeated by an occupying army?
Apophis,
Besides tell me I am wrong, you bring nothing to this discussion.
If it makes you feel important to post that, then who am I to deny the simpletons their pleasure?
I’m not going to get into a brawl with you at this difficult time Nathan.
It is inevitable that human beings under great stress and high on emotion are more prone to commit atrocious acts. And get the hell off my back that I am blaming them! YOU know damned well I blame bush and his team for this entire debacle. The troops just get to take all the fire.
I know you are damned angry. In case ya can’t tell I am too. But before you start calling out names on me and everyone else I think you better stop and realize you aint the only one that gets to be angry. I have been against this fool war from BEFORE it started because I KNEW this is where it would go. If this blog went back that far I could prove it. And back at the beginning and even now what do I get for my judgement but called names.
I said it can’t be won. IT CAN’T!That is not a slam on you the military or America. That is a FACT.You cannot beat people who are not afraid to die! Am I wrong? Why after 3 years is it only getting worse?
Nathan……you dare ask ME what I bring to the discussion? I ask YOU what YOU bring to the discussion other than being an apologist for the criminal Bush Administration? These 8 years of Bush and Company will go down into history as the most disgraceful years of US history BAR NONE! You can proudly say that YOU defended fuhrer Bush against all of of us treasonous progressives. I say FU Nathan!
XXX,
Interesting that you would bring up Vietnam.
Yet another liberal triumph of the cut and run strategy.
An “insurgency” which was defeated?
I would say the VC in Vietnam.
Nathan,I haven’t picked cherries in years:-), However, What I wrote about Bush and the war in Iraq is the truth. Bush lied to go to war. Period. I have every reason to believe that is true.
For whatever reason, you can’t or won’t accept that, that is your business.
I favor walking out of the country today, before more of our soldiers are killed for, what I believe, is nothing. I will support our soldiers unconditionally, but I will not support this war for reason. It is wrong.
Unlike others here, I don’t call you names. Never have and never will. I accept your opinion, but believe it to be false. Don’t start a firestorm where there is none.
JM
They just don’t get it do they?
JR,
You do dishonor the troops with your comments.
You assume they are going to go out and commit an atrocity. Why?
Is it something standard which happens so often which led you to this conclusion?
Do you think so little of the professionalism of our brave men and women that you are going to assume they would go out and committ and atrocity?
Like I said, you are not getting away from that comment you miserable little coward.
Not only that one either. Why did you bring up the “old tactic” bit too?
Just another little jab at our troops huh?
You do not support the troops by exploiting every death to further your anti-war and anti-bush stnace.
I know you were against this war from the beginning. It is not an excuse for you to continue to exploit each and every thing that happens to our brave men and women fighting there.
Nathan, are you saying we defeated the VC in Vietnam? How do you figure? I guess I must not understand the meaning of “defeat”.
“You do dishonor the troops with your comments.”…………..WHO ARE YOU TO DETERMINE THIS?
JM Walker,
I am not calling you names either. This is a firestorm, not because of me, but becuase of the people here who seem to swarm like flies at every tragedy and use it for nothing more than their anti-war anti-Bush crap.
You too can believe what you want to believe, but Bush did not lie to go to war.
Apophis,It’s not they don’t get it, it’s more that we think we are right so their opinion means nothing. That is a stand I don’t take. I may disagree with them, and do so strongly, but I still respect their opinion, as wrong as I believe it to be.
But I understand where you’re coming from.
BUSH LIED TO GO TO WAR…..period!
I’d suggest that Nathan go to PBS and watch the online version of FRONTLINE aired tonight. It chronicled the history of the war on terror. Before I hear the backlash that PBS is a libeal news outlet, the report included interviews with many of the key insiders involved in the Afghanistan and Iraq policy decisions. Anyone who watches this report and still finds that the administration’s decisions weren’t tinctured by a desire for the war is just willfully closed-minded.
Apophis,
I will let you know who I am to determine that when I get to post here from Iraq in a couple of months.
Nathan,Bro, may you, and all your brothers, come back healthy.
“An “insurgency” which was defeated?
I would say the VC in Vietnam.”
Are you going to explain?
BUSH DIDN’T LIE to go to war….period!
yada…yada…yada…
I aint calling names here either JM even though Nathan has called me everything but a white woman.
I hope you forgive me if I single you out for a moment JM
Nathan? JM did NOT always think this way. If you go back and look you will find there was a time when Walker favored “finishing things” in Iraq.
I made my case earlier on. And you are not the only one with a stake in this.
YOUR pResident has created a ticking middle East sub Asia time bomb with his poor handling of Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Iraq. It is only a matter of time now before that bomb goes off.
See I have a 12 year old son. I don’t want him drafted in a few years to go fight a general mid east war while george bush sits on his candy ass ranch in Texas.
You say people like me “give the terrorists hope”
I posted before when Hank fed us that line.
Feel free to keep calling me names. Here and just about everywhere else it seems your sole means of entertainment. But you better ask yourself who is better on the side of the troops then those who are endeavoring NOT to get more of them killed.
XXX,
Since the beginning of the war in Vietnam the VC ranks were being depleted. More and more NVA regulars were being shipped down to replenish the ranks.
After the failed Tet offesive, the VC and almost all of its infrastructure had been destroyed.
The US successfully waged a war against the VC and the NVA even with all the political restrictions.
Of course this is a pretty short narrative, it would take me a book to write about it all.
JR,
Your continued use of each death and tragedy in Iraq to bash the President and call for an immediate withdrawl is all the support the enemy needs.
Who better to wage their PR war than you.
Call you names? That is the least you deserve for saying that my fellow service men and women are going to go out and committ an atrocity and who knows what else you meant with your “Old Tactic” crap.
Nathan, I was fighting VC in ‘70 and ‘71. I have friends that fought them in ‘74 and ‘75. They didn’t seem to be very depleted.
The VC were a force to be reconned with till the very end.
Nathan, we’ll discuss at a time when you’re not so busy. Looks like you got your hands full.
XXX: Hope you don’t mind if I butt in. What would you say it would take for us to hang up a “W” against the insurgents in Iraq. (I just realized what I wrote, go ahead and have fun with it)
I would say that if we put in place a stable Iraq government and military that is capable of defending itself we have accomplished what we set out to do. It is what the insurgents are desperately trying to prevent.
That would be victory.
Nathan……………first off……..I didn’t come over from an “abortion” thread. YOU were the one you turned the thread from the Brooks murder into an anti-abortion thing.
Bush is a liar and HE is solely responsible for the deaths of everyone of the 2500+ service men and women who have valiantly given their lives. The vast majority of even the “liberals” support the troops. You messed up bushbots want to claim that because we detest Bush and his prosecution of this invasion that we are undermining our troops is just plain moronic. You are hell bent on finding an enemy, even if that “enemy” are fellow Americans. You are indeed sick individuals.
Nathan;”After the failed Tet offesive, the VC and almost all of its infrastructure had been destroyed.The US successfully waged a war against the VC and the NVA even with all the political restrictions.”I was there right after- you are dreaming if you think Tet ‘68 failed. I was in Intelliegence and had access to classified info. You are wrong, again.
For those who DO know who’s ultimately accountable for Iraq, I think Andrew Sullivan makes a good point today about Geneva conventions, torture, and the moral high ground that’s so crucial to our victory.
No matter what anybody says, Iraq and everything that follows is at its heart a war of ideas. As we’ve all seen countless times on this blog, one of the most common ways humans take to ignore a new idea is to discount it on something underpinned by some notion of morality held by the reader.
It’s simple: morality counts big time when your goal is to convert the unconverted. It counts when it comes to making friends in the West and in Asia, and – if Bush is correct and the Middle East becomes more democratic as a result of victory in Iraq – then it will come to count more and more there as well.
I’m arguing that the more we fail to extend the Geneva conventions to our prisoners, and the more we harm innocent civilians, and the more Gitmos we have then the less slowly we will win. We will win less slowly because we will collect fewer real friends just as we make more real enemies.
Without friends, we need to win FAST. We cannot afford the base notions of vengeance that – under President Bush’s leadership – are certainly at the heart of what we have done and now do wrongly in Iraq. Of course, you’ll never hear that from President Bush or most of his supporters.
This is about winning, not about tying the hands of a president who to date has managed to find plenty of ways to lose all by himself.
http://time.blogs.com/daily_dish/2006/06/hey_wait_a_minu.html
“My point is that we can no longer unequivocally condemn the torture of these two soldiers because we have endorsed and practised torture ourselves. What was once a difference in kind between us and our enemy is now a difference in degree. That fact profoundly weakens our moral standing in the world, the power of our cause, and impedes the long-run success in the war of ideas that the war on terror involves.”
XXX,
No offense to your personal experience, but have you studied the overall picture of things?
The things I have studied from the commanders and generals and stats all show constant defeat of the VC at every engagement and a constant decrease in their numbers and increase in the NVA numbers.
gster,
I’m just gonna say it,
I think you are full of crap.
I guess the usual are touting the “cut and run” strategy. Did they get their Howard Dean memo for talking points on this issue yet?
May those brave soliders rest in peace. They did not die in vain and may a future monument commemorate your bravery and loyality for protecting us from the brutal enemies of the world.
Brian,
I watched it tonight. Its a “Slam Dunk” against the Bush Admin.
It proves my opinon all along that this war was manipulated.
All the Former CIA officers, and former Bush aides tell the story how it is. Some who have probably even voted Repub. before.
Another interesting tidbit is how the CIA was basically able to take over Afghanistan and converge on Osama, but was not given the proper backup when the military arrived. The CIAs work in Afgahnistan, even though Osama was never killed, could have been a model for how to fight terrorism. BUT GREEDY FAT, IDIOTIC WHITE MEN HAVE TO MAKE A BUCK TO FEEL RIGHTOUS ABOUT THEMSELVES!!
Nathan,
Funny that no one else but you has a problem with my comments on how these soldiers got captured. Maybe they weren’t just looking for a half ass way to jump on me like you are here and on every thread every day on the blog.
I wondered at how they could fall victim to such an old tactic. I even said before I posted that that I was NOT BASHING THE TROOPS. Though I did not say I trust that others with military experience like XXX and JM would understand I was IMPLYING that basic order and discipline might be breaking down if our troops could so easily fall victim to a tactic that has been used for centuries. Things may be far worse in Iraq than is generally known if our troops are so easily being captured and killed.And AGAIN in case you missed it, I have ALWAYS posted that our troops our overdeployed and never sure of just what “the mission” is. This is NOT THEIR FAULT!By the way Nathan? I ALSO mentioned in that post as to why it was that our troops do not have some sort of personal transponder. Why don’t you climb off my back and your high horse and educate me a little.This post is probably gonna be “behind” as I had to put my son to bed.
Im just a guy on a blog. Colin Powell a 5 star general told your idiot pResident what this would be.
You need to read more carefully Nathan.
You post that I use every excuse to call for an immediate withdrawl. I HAVE NEVER EVER called for that on this thread or any other.
Let me repeat it for you so you get it through the fog you live under that everything I post is wrong.
We should set a date. We should tell Iraq at large that they are responsible for their own affairs after that date. And AFTER that date we should withdraw and only guarantee the territorial borders of Iraq from incursion.
JR,
I don’t need the validation of posters here to boost my ego or make me feel good about what I post.
I stand on what I believe. This is not some silly popularity contest for me.
No matter how many times you say you support the troops, your insinuation that they are going to go out and committ and atrocity is not support.
I don’t go after everyone of your posts, just the retarded ones in the WE meetup thread and here.
The victim card doesn’t work with me anymore.
You want to come here and post your dribble about the troops in Iraq and I will call you out on it.
Stop your crying.
As fas as your plan? What date should we set, please tell us oh wise one.
Not only that, but my faith in your support or anyone elses in going back to stop an invasion is lacking.
Just like the democrats supported going back to enforce the Paris peace accords when North Vietnam invaded…
You might go back, but many of your supporting comrades here sure wouldn’t support it.
Nathan you are justifiably angry today and so I will forgive you for “melting down”
Others are angry too. Oh but as ever it is all about NATHAN.”I don’t need the validation of posters here to boost my ego or make me feel good about what I post”
Isn’t that another way Nathan to say you do not give a damn about facts or truth but only what you think is right? Isn’t that your pattern on every blog?Isn’t such thinking the same as YOUR pResident who ignored the advice of a 5 star general on what this military adventure would result in?
My assertion that the troops will now commit atrocities is not an attack on them. It is an acknowledgement that they are human beings stressed to the breaking point on an ever changing mission who have heard of some of their fellows brutally tortured and murdered who will now want to hit back.
Hey Nathan? If the media is “liberal” why is this being played up so to emotion? Those two guys died. They have families. Oh but hey let’s not spare the families the FULL KNOWLEDGE of how their loved ones died. No let’s pander to fear and stoke hatred. Let’s not THINK. Let us REACT! Those boys should not die in vain! Lets send more to die to sanctify their loss!
My plan? Can’t your read? Set a date and tell Iraq they have to handle their own affairs by that date.The rest of your post?
When did I ever claim victim status? Would you be referring to many posters calling you and Hank out on the fact that bashing me at every opportunity seems to be not only fun for you but your main reason for posting the blogs?
I’m done with civility too by the way. For every shot from you and Hank you will now get 2 back from me.
Oh and by the way Nathan?
One of the families of these 2 lost soldiers is coming out against the war.
Can we expect from you and yours that that family will get the Cindy Sheehan treatment?
JR,
We can’t even secure our own borders let alone those of Iraq. It would require about 500 000 men on the ground to pacify the entire country and that won’t happen. The traitor shrub knows that come what may, he can pass of the whole mess to the unluck soul who gets elected in ‘08.
V.L.R.B!!!
All you warmongers, follow your leader. I don’t mean GWB, he’s just an alcohol-brain-burned out puppet. Your leader is Dick Cheney, who worked in another imperialist-administration regime when GWB was a young party-boy. Cheney’s associate Don Rumsfeld was also working hard at that time with him. That was the administration of Dick Nixon.
I think it was John Adams who found the vice presidency to be unsatisfying as the VP had no power. No we have a VP who could not have said, “I’m Dick Cheney, I used to be a Nixon aide, then a Congressmen and now I run Halliburton, vote for me for president,” and had a snowball’s chance in August of being elected. So he got in by stealth.
According to a PBS report tonight, when the case was manufactured to invade Iraq, Cheney went to the CIA to pressured the agency to distort intelligence. He reportedly went to Langley many times. Interviwed retired career officers who allege that they saw this said it was unprecedented for a VP to do this.
Gee, I should have been taking notes.
It was only a few days ago that I commented on the snide little digs Nathan (& Hank, too) use as their personal weapon against those they don’t agree with. That’s the way some people operate. But this thread proves that Nathan is laying down the gloves and itching for an all-out war.
Nathan, it seems you’ve left your oft mentioned civility at the door over the past couple of days. I’ve seen this before, and I recognize the cause.
XXX and gster, how about you guys? See anything you recognize?
Nathan will be deployed to Iraq soon. That has to be one scary thing to be facing, I don’t care how macho, tough, or whatever you are. I’ve seen many servicemen go on the attack as their time to leave approaches. My 16-year-old daughter just pointed that out to me, as a friend of hers is currently serving in Iraq. Baghdad, Camp Victory, to be exact. Pretty much a hotspot there.
I understand that these men cannot be afraid of what they’re facing. I understand that to quell any notion of fear, they MUST attack others as part of their defense and part of proving to themselves that “fear” is not a word in their vocabulary. It can’t be.
So I’ll give you a pass, Nathan, and you can scream and yell and be as rude as you have to. Just keep in mind that your emotions will never go away. You don’t have to speak them out loud, but to stay sane in this life, it’s best to acknowledge them and move on. The human mind and soul can only be ignored for so long before they shut down.
Back to the bashing!
Have a nice day.
I guess I am not the only person who generates so much hate in nathan. I wonder if he is the one who posted over my signature yesterday under the freedom thread. He even takes on his fellow veterans and questions their first hand knowledge.
We see here that nathan has adopted the new rove strategy. Whatever YOUR weakness, pin something similar on those who disagree. Dont think the war is a good thing? Then you are a coward, a traitor, or, gasp, a liberal democrat. heheh.
I guess, given the polling data, that means the MAJORITY of americans belong in those catagories and the only real patriots are nathan and hank.
Nathan has painted every american on this blog, other than his lapdogs williams and outie, as a terrorist loving traitor who hates america, hates the troops and wants us to lose in iraq. He even paints guys, fellow vets and marines, like walker and XXX that way.
And we see how JR and I are his and his dad’s favorite targets. But no prejudice on his side. Uh uh no. Just christian love. Kinda like the love they showed tb. They cry civility, but I think this thread shows their real agenda.
I think we can see now that their whole reason for being here is to secure the blog, like a military operation, from anyone who doesnt drink their brand of koolaide. Civility? Heheheh. Nope. Just run off the people who are REAL patriots.
I think we have witnessed here the real soul of the republican party, the religious right, and the military neocons. Pretty isnt it.
Lalalalalala bush did not lie lalalalalala
Putting your fingers in your ears and singing is not the way to find the truth. And as we all know, the truth will set you free.
Too sad to see someone tied up in their own chains by denying the truth. Bush is playing a losing hand, and using guys like nathan to do it. And he is mad at US? hehehe.
Not everyone lost to the war comes back with a flag draped over them. I am sure walker and XXX know guys who were walking, but they were lost spiriturally and mentally in the broken promises for eternity.
I hope that doesnt happen to nathan when he finds out that his real god, bushco, let him down with their lies. Who will be there for nathan then? Bush?
Or us…..?
Outlander,”XXX: Hope you don’t mind if I butt in. What would you say it would take for us to hang up a “W” against the insurgents in Iraq.”
Out, I’m going to assume you meant a “V”. We can indeed win in Iraq. But I’m not sure that’s what this administration really wants (think about it). We blew the first and best option by not putting 500,000 troops on the ground in the first place. That’s what we did in the first Gulf war, and I’d say that was pretty successful, in that we did what we said we’d do. The current administration should be whipped for trying to fight this war on the cheap in the beginning. Now what’s it going to cost us?
IMHO, the only way we’re going to win now is by breaking the will of our enemies. Now that gets ugly, it’s not going to get us any friends, and it’ll turn most of the planet against us, circumstances that I believe we’re in anyway, so who cares.
This will drive my Liberal friends mad, but I suggest a few tactical nukes. I also suggest we level a major part of Iraq. Burn it. Show them we mean business. I know that sounds cruel, but it’s a cruel world and a cruel war.
Mind you, you asked what I think it would take to win. Of course, we can continue as we have and loose who knows how many Americans and go broke in the process.
“I’m arguing that the more we fail to extend the Geneva conventions to our prisoners, and the more we harm innocent civilians, and the more Gitmos we have then the less slowly we will win. We will win less slowly because we will collect fewer real friends just as we make more real enemies.”Posted by: flike | June 20, 2006 at 10:06 PM
Should have written that we will win MORE slowly, not less. The point I am trying to make is that ceding the moral high ground to the likes of al Qaeda means that our war effort will drag out longer, costing us more in resources and increasing substantially the risk of losing.
Ceding the moral high ground to al Qaeda is equivalent to actions taken to *lose* the war, not win the war.
Unfortunately for the US, Dick Cheney disagrees.
KFG,
I did not call anyone a terroist loving traitor, but if you are feeling guilty then by all means if the shoe fits wear it.
I said you are giving the enemy hope with your cowardly calls for withdrawl.
I undertand you feel the need to defend your little man JR here. I commend you for that. It is always nice to have good friends.
However, don’t waste your time with pretending like you actually care about civility.
Flike,
What moral high ground are we ceding?
Those prisoners are treated well. They get fed regularly, shelter, time for their religious activities…
They are prisoners though.
We are not anywhere near close to what Al Qaeda does to their prisoners…torture and kill them.
Comparing us to the enemy is about as sick and low as you can get.
And then you wonder why I say you are giving the enemy hope?
JR,
My saying that you are a miserable little man was not an attack on you either.
It is just that you are merely a human, a small miserable one at that.
No offense intended. Seriously.
Oh my God, Nathan said I was full of crap!! Let’s see, that takes me off the short list and puts me on the long one. Can I now attend the “Nathan Said I”m Full of Crap Club” meetings? Are they still at Century 2?
Nathan, who’s ultimately accountable for Iraq, the president or his generals?
Until you can answer that, then I don’t think we have any areas sufficiently common for discussion.
I mean, if you don’t know who’s accountable then in my opinion discussion with you is a waste of time.
heheh take a number gster.
But he still hasnt called you a miserable little man or any of the things I mentioned in my post, so you cant be on the board of directors. hehe
heheheh gster, and nathan didnt attack you the way he did JR here.
“I suggest you go back to the thread where you want to insinuate that our troops are going to go out and committ an atrocity and stop acting like the miserable little coward you are.”
I guess he wanted to make sure JR saw the apology he posted here on this thread.
ROFLMQAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
funny, miserable is the word ruby/sts/lmnop used to describe me.
Meme? Or multiple identity prolls?
you be the decidere
Flike, you are wasting your time talking to a bushbot about accountablility.
I mean, if your preznit is above the laws of the land, who needs accountability?
No matter what the evangelicals say about accountablility, it is so, well, you know. For the little folks.
KFG- To be personally annointed by the Grand High Exalted Crapmaster, The Prince of Poop, Dispenser of Dung makes me feel special.Do you think I should get new business cards? The bottom line after all the fanfare is that this award really means I’m just an ordinary person!
We could have a coronation ceremony amonst the evil, terrorist loving, america hating leftists here.
– Comparing us to the enemy is about as sick and low as you can get. –
Don’t get too worked up about all the Donkeyspeak around here, Nathan.
My first feeling as to this thread was to treat you with deference Nathan. RD did a good job of describing why.
Despite your virtual meltdown of spittle laced assaults, I have tried to argue with you rationally and with regard to the very deep feelings you must have about this incident.
But ya know what? Then I remembered how your hero Ann Coulter regards giving anyone deference because of who they are or what they do. If widows of men killed on 911 can be viciously attacked for having a political opinion, it seems I owe you no deference in this matter simply because you happen to be about to be deployed.
You have a low opinion of me? How this relates to the subject I am not sure. You may rest assured I have a low opinion of you. I have a few assumptions of my own as to you that I will not post here.
Unlike you, I do not hold individual human beings totally accountable for acts they may have comitted under duress that they did not ask to be placed under. You know, like when you called the perpetrators of My Lai “retarded”? Or when you now blame the accused (note I did say accused) in the Haditha incident rather than the leadership that put the troops in this nightmare situation?
I did not say that there would be another atrocity on our part. I speculated that given their situation and this latest incident such an event was more likely.
Why don’t you climb off your priveledged perch and answer my honest question as to whether our troops have some sort of personal tracking device? You would know.
gster I knew right off I kinda liked you.
Boy it sure didn’t take ya long to get to the high end of the “long list”!
Does this mean I’m on my way to Hell?
WASHINGTON – The Marine Corps on Wednesday planned to charge seven Marines and one sailor with murder in connection with the April death of an Iraqi civilian, a defense official said.
—-
I guess it can be said that there CAN sometimes be a few rotten apples in the basket.
Nathan, for the record, I’m not shouting guilty and intend to see how this plays out in the future. Still, even the hint of this kind of thing is not good PR for the U.S.
“Does this mean I’m on my way to Hell?”
Sure, gster! Come on in, the weather’s fine. And look at it this way: You won’t have to deal with meme-talking (mean-talking?) rightwing apologists who believe their party and its members can do no wrong, and the only way they can win an argument is to disqualify their oppenent on the grounds of _____(fill in the blank with the appropriate spew of garbage).
“My saying that you are a miserable little man was not an attack on you either.
It is just that you are merely a human, a small miserable one at that.
No offense intended. Seriously.”
Holy Garbage, Batman! Did you see that? An apology issued for using a personal attack by personally attacking. Wow, that’s one for the books! POW! BAM!
Yeah RD and it is gonna get worse. I have more than posted to that here.
What pisses me off is the blame always rolls downhill. The accused in these incidents have officers. Where the hell are they when these things may be happening? (Presumption of innocence noted) In the Hadita case, an officer ordered the accused shackled in their cells 23 hours a day! Maybe that is military regs. I don’t know. I DO call it excessive.
gster
Depends your definition of “hell”. When ya make the “long list” You SHOULD expect to be attacked personally on a regular basis. You will also often be called names. Get used to words like little, smaller, irrelevant, crybaby, whiny, whiner, etc. Also any facts or arguements you present will be automatically labeled “crap”. These shots may come under a nic you recognize or one you have never seen before.
Welcome to the club!
Posts crossed their RD.
“It is only gonna get worse” was directed at your post the alledged atrocity.
Though it probably applies to being “in the club” as well.
Here, kfg would say “this is not a pipe”
Aww heck RD and gster that pipe upside the head “apology” is minor. It can get WAY worse……or better depending on how ya take it:)
In a war of the vain, everyone dies in vain.
Republican mentality: “We have to keep Al Quida killing innocent civilians over there, so they won’t be killing them over here”!
Is disregarding that which opposes what you wish to believe as the truth a lie? That is the core of the matter. When Cheney asked for evidence that the tubes being bought by Iraq were for nuclear purposes and the best guess was that the were not. The CIA was told “wrong” try again and the yellow cake report that they needed hard evidence to prove the allegation. Kept coming back as unsubstantiated, they were told it was not good enough. The allegation that there was a meeting between Atta and a top Iraqis intelligence officer, which came from German intelligence. Also came with a disclaimer by the Germans that their source was unreliable. And no American collaboration could be found of such a meeting having occurred . The Administration said “keep working”. The director of the CIA himself told G.W. that they could find no intelligence that was newer then ten years old that showed Saddam still have any WMDs. He was dismissed and told there had to be!
Did Bush lie then? Cheney, Rumfields, Wolfawatz, peale and last but not least G.W. all believed that Saddam was a threat and he had WMDs, he was also continuing his program to gain more. In spite of there being no evidence to support their believe, they in fact believed that the proof would come after the invasion. Even when the NSA, CIA, FBI and foreign agencies could not find the proof to support the allegations other then some unreliable sources that they could not find a second source to substantiate the claim. They was still sure of what they believed.
Now as to Haditha, I am not addressing the guilt or innocents of the Marines involved. But while waiting for my wife to get out of surgery I had a chance to read a write up in Time Magazine. It give some of the back ground and what Kilo company has been dealing with.
Kilo company had play a major role in Faljusha, then was one of three companies sent to oust the insurgency in Haditha, which they do a great job of doing. As time passed, the other two companies were moved to different actions leaving Kilo company to secure and police the town of 90 thousand. As could be suspected the insurgency had taken advantage of the shrinkage of Marines and moved back in. Attacks of one type or another became common place and almost on a daily bases. ( I hope you can pardon me as to the exact number of Marines said to be with Kilo. As in between reading I was get updates on my wife) Kilo company was less then two hundred, it was something like 130 or 190 patrolling a town of 90 thousand. They were receiving little if any help from the citizens of Haditha. Either through fear of or sympathy with the insurgents, the citizen would claim ignorance of who the insurgents were or where they were. Rumors of relief were just rumors. Many in Kilo company were on their second and third tours in Iraq, with little down time.
According to the first report of that faithful day, a patrol of four Humvee was going down a street when the fourth Humvee was blown up by a road side bomb. At the time a cab had been driving beside the convoy and it was suspected that perhaps had something to do with the explosion. The cab was ordered stopped and the five occupants to get out. four of the occupants exited the cab and started to run, the Marines open fire and kill all five that were in the cab. They then reported that they took fire from one of four houses, so they entered the houses to clear them. The aftermath was twenty four died with only one being armed.
Kilo was said to have tried to win hearts and minds while there, doing the best they could to hold the town and fight the insurgency. Enduring daily attacks while safe guarding the population.
“The truth will set you free, but first it will make you miserable.”James A. Garfield 1831-1881
Their defense should be that it was a mercy killing, the victim could have faced life imprisonment had he been turned over to the pentagon.