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- By Phillip Brownlee
- Posted May 31, 2006 at 1:35 p.m.
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130 Comments
How about starting with how to participate in a debate without loosing your cool and threatening each other?
Tracy,You say that like anything in these comments could actually be considered a debate.
I’d like comments on the fact that public pools don’t open until AFTER Memorial Day and close BEFORE Labor Day. I guess I’m old-fashioned – those weekends were the traditional bookends of summer when I grew up.
Nick, you bring so much to the discussion. It’s so much easier to stand back and be a smartass that to actually contribute something meaningful.
Sorry I rained on your domain XXX, however, to consider anything here a debate is well, laughable. A debate is a contest with rules, judges, acceptable procedures, winners and losers.This is a bunch of comments, rants, unprovoked attacks, and insults (such as your own) with an occasional good point. For it to be anthing else, people like you would have to wear a muzzle.
Quote of the Day:
“If, by 2050, the America we grew up in has become a Tower of Babel of squabbling minorities that is falling apart, it will be because of the treason of the elites, and our lack of will to overthrow them.” -Patrick J. Buchanan
Viva La Raza Blanco!!!
I like being sarcastic every once in awhile. It’s a spirit of friendship.
But since this is a public blog, there are people who tend to be deviants and act like twelve-year-olds. But that is the reflection of our society. Entertainment, news, and our lack of understanding or being distracted by unimportant matters will result in uncritical responses, but instead will result for a tit for tat “I’m better than you” or defamatory responses.
Basically, just what it is like in any school playground.
;)
Dear Tracy,
I’m perfectly willing to be civil, however, having a conservative viewpoint on this BLOG is considered uncivil by some.
It’ll be interesting to see who is the first to call names!
Hank
Well, Nick’s already bitchen’ about my choice of words.
If anyone else thinks debate is not a good description of what goes on here, then please substitute your own description.
Discussion maybe? I don’t know, you fill it in Nick!!
CONSERVATIVE is not a dirty word.It’s just a different point of view.
sigh…
Why does there have to be so much acrimony here? Can’t we all just get along; at least us white folks anyhow? :)
V.L.R.B!!!
Nick? Who’s Nick?
I don’t know, what’s acrimony Ian?Is that sumpin’ white folks ain’t sposa have?
JR,Ever heard of Nick Danger? I wonder . . .
Tracy,On this blog it appears conservative is a dirty word. Those who subscribe to its principles usually get slammed. An unfortunate occurance, but that’s the way it is.
Nick,Nick who?
Nick, you’re cordially invited to try putting a muzzle on me.
“This is a bunch of comments, rants, unprovoked attacks, and insults (such as your own) with an occasional good point.”
So what’s your point (as if you had one)? Don’t like the environment here? Feel free to leave.
Here’s an interesting article regarding the polar caps 55 million years ago…
http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/14708088.htm
I could go for 74 degrees average temp.
He (Nick) should have been around when a married couple who were extreme insane Bible thumpers thought they would move in and tell us heathenistic money changers we were going to hell!!
Whooo boy, now that was some fun bloggin’!!!!
The definition of the word BLOG is not DEBATE.
“A debate is a contest with rules, judges, acceptable procedures, winners and losers.”
Nick, where anywhere in the WE does it mention rules, judges, yada yada? Does it say DEBATE ROOM? Or even DEBATE BLOG?
Someone is delusional.
For something completely different, I thought that I would post some of my favorite song lyrics. :)
Clash White Riot Lyrics
White riot – I wanna riotWhite riot – a riot of my ownWhite riot – I wanna riotWhite riot – a riot of my own
Black people gotta lot a problemsBut they don’t mind throwing a brickWhite people go to schoolWhere they teach you how to be thick
An’ everybody’s doingJust what they’re told toAn’ nobody wantsTo go to jail!
All the power’s in the handsOf people rich enough to buy itWhile we walk the streetToo chicken to even try it
Everybody’s doingJust what they’re told toNobody wantsTo go to jail!
Are you taking overor are you taking orders?Are you going backwardsOr are you going forwards?http://www.vastlyrics.com/c/Clash/White%20Riot/
Viva La Raza Blanco!!!!
Let’s call a spade a spade. JM Walker is a subversive. He cites Nick Danger which is totally leftist-communis propaganda.
Okay, JM, does this ring a bell? “At 4th and Drucker he turns right. He crosses MacArthur Park and runs into a great sandstone building, “Uh my nose.” Okay, smartguy, on whom was Rocky Rococco’s character based: John Wayne, Edward Everett Horton, Peter Lorrie or Dorothy Lamour?
What was Nancy’s real name?
What was the “butler’s” name and who was he really?
When Ralph Spoilsport sold a car, what foreign country did the radio pull in, and what language did they speak?
On “Waiting for the Electrician, or Someone like Him”, what was the name of the gameshow in which the hero was injected with the plague bacillus?”
Why did soldier Silverburg refuse to invade Porkchop Hill?
In “We’re all Bozo’s on This Bus,” what was the hero’s name, and who played him?
In “Back from the Shadows Again”, what was the color of the rivers, and what could you do “right into the stream”?
In the movie “Every Thing You Know is Wrong”, what was the color of the aliens’ drink?
Evaluation: 8-9 answers right, a threat to the New World Order.
6-7 answers right, a dedicated communist.
4-5 answers right, a pinkdo.
2-3 answers right, may be harmless but needs to have his email and his phone calls to potential terrorist states like Canada monitored.
0-1 answers right, was a doper 30 years ago, but he’s safe now because his brain doesn’t work very well.
Some readers like Apothis think they have me pegged. Not even close. I gave my home-schooled children copies of my entire FT collection. After we listened to them.
I meant “4-5 answers right, a pinko.”
Nice heartlander, trash me in a thread where I have never been or posted.
I guess I have struck a nerve. Speak of “calling a spade a spade”!
Gander Mountain is losing money big time:
Gander Mountain reports wider first-quarter lossGander Mountain SEC filingsST. PAUL, Minn. – Gander Mountain Co., which operates a chain of hunting and fishing stores, reported today a wider first-quarter loss, which it blamed on the seasonally weak quarter and a higher number of stores.
For the quarter ended April 29, Gander Mountain reported a net loss of $23 million, or $1.61 per share, versus a prior-year loss of $17.6 million, or $1.23 per share.
Revenue rose 15 percent to $155.6 million from $135.3 million in the year earlier period.
Wall Street had forecast a loss of 70 cents per share, the average estimate of six analysts surveyed by Thomson Financial, on projected sales of $158 million.
Sales in stores open at least one year — a closely watched performance gauge called same-store sales — slid 10.4 percent during the quarter.
Gander Mountain — which operates a store in downtown Wichita — said many of its stores are unprofitable in the seasonally small first quarter. It also attributed the quarter’s increased loss on having an average of 16 additional stores open during the period.
The retailer operated 99 stores at the end of April and said it plans to open eight new stores in 2006.
Hang on guys – there will be a building available down there pretty soon!
Ben. They still have $133 million in cash and $500 million in inventory assets alone.
heartlander,If it’s drugs you want, roll up your arm and bend over.
BTW, FST is supposed to have a new album coming out.
heartlander, Oh, ya, and me being a subversive? I was in the air force: I hate tight spaces.
Apothis, I changed threads to ensure I got your and other readers’ attention. New thread =more likely to be read. We can direct readers to “JoCo lawmakers need to be more like Sedgwick County?”
We can get this down to either, You’re smart and know how to intelligently debate, which includes making concessions, as I have done on the WEBlog, or you don’t know how to debate. You replicated my own previously-expressed statements then said my statements that my statements were misinformed, while you posted my statements as your own insights. That’s not an effective debating strategem. You can take my arguments and show their defects. But if you merely repllicate them, and wholeheartedly endorse them, but then tell people the ideas I presented before you are misinformed, even though you agree with them, then you can’t gain credibility. I’d really like to help you gain credibility.
A day is coming when the traitors will pay for their crimes with their worthless lives. The vermin nned to be rounded up and deported, period!
WorldNetDaily.com
Based on a one-year in-depth study, a researcher estimates there are about 240,000 illegal immigrant sex offenders in the United States who have had an average of four victims each.
Deborah Schurman-Kauflin of the Violent Crimes Institute in Atlanta analyzed 1,500 cases from January 1999 through April 2006 that included serial rapes, serial murders, sexual homicides and child molestation committed by illegal immigrants.
She found that while the offenders were located in 36 states, most were in states with the highest numbers of illegal immigrants. California had the most offenders, followed by Texas, Arizona, New Jersey, New York and Florida.
Schurman-Kauflin concluded that, based on a figure of 12 million illegal immigrants and the fact that more of this population is male than average, sex offenders among illegals make up a higher percentage than offenders in the general population.
Full article
The Myth of ‘Hispanic’ Family Values
Why Multiculturalism Is a Fraud and a Disaster for Women’s Rightshttp://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=9128
Viva La Raza Blanco!!Viva La Revolucion Blanco!!!Deportacion Total!!!!
heartlander
What do YOU know about true debate? It seems to me that all you do is spout rhetoric. True debate consists of taking an affirmative and negative side of an issue. All you ever do is spew your opinion as fact. You are irrelevant.
I told you I’m not going to respond to nonsequitors. I’m posting here to show you I am listening to what you say, but this is the last time.
I guess I made the mistake of thinking you are a teacher, but you’re not even saying what you teach. So, I guess you aren’t actually a teacher. My misake. I would feel really bad if you spent your days in a classroom, for the kids particularly.
Changing the subject – which may be difficult to do…
What DVDs have you seen recently that are worth seeing in your opinion?
Tonight, my spouse and I saw “TransAmerica”. It was one of the best movies I have seen this year! How it did not win an Oscar for best picture is beyond me. It is not for everyone, but it was great (IMHO)!
DD,
Did you see V for Vendetta? I saw it twice and it is a must see, very well done film. Check out the following review.http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=8809
V.L.R.B!!
Ian,I have not seen it yet, but from what I have read, it is a blockbuster in terms of waking up the sheeple from their slumber.
Thanks for mentioning it.
ONE TIN SOLDIER COVEN :Listen children to a story that was written long ago ‘Bout a kingdom on a mountain and the valley folk below .On the mountain was a treasure buried deep beneath a stone. And the valley people swore they’d have it for their very own Go ahead and hate your neighbor, go ahead and cheat a friend. Do it in the name of heaven, justify it in the end .There won’t be any trumpets blown, come the judgment day On the bloody morning after…… One tin soldier rides away.
So the people of the valley sent a message up the hill Asking for the buried treasure tons of gold for which they’d kill. Came an answer from the kingdom “With our brothers we will share All the secrets of our mountain, all the riches buried there.” Now the valley cried with anger, mount your horses, draw your sword and they killed the mountain people so they won their just reward Now they stood beside the treasure on the mountain, dark and red turned the stone and looked beneath it, “Peace on Earth” was all it said.
Go ahead and hate your neighbor, go ahead and cheat a friend. Do it in the name of heaven, justify it in the end .There won’t be any trumpets blown, come the judgment day On the bloody morning after…… One tin soldier rides away
Where’s Billy Jack when you need him?
heartlander, see what happens when you try to think.
I know you would respond……….and you will again and again. Your ego will not allow you anything less!
Oddly enough I had looked up the song when a poster on the message board had said that the reason we invaded Iraq was oil. It had always been oil, even though she is the strongest Bush support still left on the boards and had ran the line:
It is WMDs, we found them! He had them all along!
It is to free the Iraqis from the grasp of Saddam! It has always been to free the Iraqis!
Hold on…It is the liberals that cause the invasion of Iraq! It has always been the liberals and we have a right to the Iraqis oil!We are addicted to oil and needed a steady supply of oil and Saddam was holding us hostage. Along with all the other Middle eastern countries. (I remembering Nathan making A similar argument too) It will be another nine years till we have a suitable substitute for our addiction to oil. So it is a matter of our survival that we invaded Iraq. It is the liberals fault since they are opposed to drilling in Alaska. And building any more refineries. SHAME ON YOU J.R., SHAME ON YOU KFG, for shame on all of you!
Her argument sounded very similar to the justification that small time criminals make for breaking in to a house to steal valuables. So my first response to her point was the lyrics to “One tin soldier”. So basically we have become a nation of thugs. “you have it…. I want it….I have a weapon….you do not….I am taking it!CAUSE I AM THE BIGGEST MO-FO ON THE BLOCK!
But of course she does not reply to all the posts pointing out that she was the one that had kept going with the WMDs long after none had been found. Sorry for the rant, but it steams me when people try to justify the unjustifiable. When I think of all the men and women that have paid the price for this foolishness. The damage it has done to my country and that nothing …But Nothing has been done to stop it.
We have become those valley folk, whether we want to or not. dragged along by that S.O.B. in the White house! 1984! it is like the book where the enemy and the reason for the war changes with the wind! And we the American people are thought to not remember who and what the fighting was for a week later!The revelation that it has been over oil is not new, anyone that gave it a moments thought would have come to that conclusion. But to think that we, the American people have sunk so low to have abandon our principals to even suggest that we have a Right to invaded because we have not bothered to try to come up with a substitute for our dependence on oil. Is unthinkable, who are we really? And who do we wish to be?This country will face the same fate as any bully on the block, sooner or later a bigger kid will kick our ass and rightly so. Like a New yorker told me once “You sell enough wolf ticket someone will buy!”.
Excellent post Dog!
DD,I absolutely love “The Notebook” and “Phantom of the Opera”. Then again I am a helpless romantic.Mountain Man has highly recommended “Brokeback Mountain” but he got to see it at a time when I couldn’t – (bad hubby). I’m gonna try to go see “DaVinci Code” this weekend.
DD,
The only DVD I’ve watched in a long time is the “Phantom of the Opera” (my wife’s favorite).
Surprisingly I enjoyed it more than I thought I would. Later in the year (October/November) we’ll hopefully get to go to London to see it in the theatre.
We used to subscribe to Netflix but we don’t watch enough movies to make it worth our while.
Hank
Writerdog,
I have seen some oversimplification of things before, but your post seems to be the front runner for today.
The part that caught my attention was this one:
“sooner or later a bigger kid will kick our ass and rightly so…”
This is the same additude that people on the left had from day one. It is nothing new.
People like you seem to think that somehow because America is as strong as we are that we deserve what we get.
What patriot you are…not.
BTW, ‘Billy Jack’ was or is producing another movie!!
Hollywood never would have anything to do with this guy, so he’s going it alone, again.
Always eloquent writerdog. I am not sure what female poster you are referrencing. But I do know we have posters like you described.
DD I JUST got a DVD player. Finally was able to find one we could afford. So I am more than a little behind about what is out there for DVD. So far I am absolutely floored by the added feautures. The only DVD I have as yet seen all the way through is Star Wars III. No doubt you’ve already seen that though.
No Nathan that is not what I was saying. It is not a matter of us being as strong as we are. It is a matter of if you push hard enough some one will push back!
We seem to forget that yes we are a powerful nation one that could take on any one nation and the odds are we would win. Short of a nuclear war which lets face it no one would win! But We are not so powerful that we could take on the world. We could only destroy the world. How long do you think this country could survive if we were to start taking other countries resource by force? Who would stand with us when we are rolling over other countries taking the same resources that the rest need. Promise them table scraps some might, but not the bigger countries. Not Europe, their demands are as strong as ours and for the same reasons. That is what I meant, to presume we are entitles because we are powerful will only serve to a show down between the U.S. and the world. It is the fact that we are a strong nation that means we are a powerful ally. If we start being a bully to the world we stop being an ally and start being a threat.
I’ve started collecting the John Grisham books-turned-movie and bought The Client last night. So far, I’m only up to 3, so it’s a slow start. I did enjoy Runaway Jury.
We rented Crash not long after the Oscars, and it was excellent. There was one point in the movie where I was ready to leave the room, it was so intense. One of my daughters convinced me to continue watching, telling me it would be okay. I stayed and ended up with relieved and happy tears.
DD, thanks for the comments on TransAmerica. It’s on my list to rent.
I heartily endorse HBO’s Empire Falls.
Julie, I watched Phantom on TV and was sadly disappointed. I know. I’m in the very small majority non-fans. We can’t all like them all. But isn’t that why there’s such a wide choice of movies?
RD – it’s ok – at least you have good taste in books :)
Julie, so do you. :)
BTW, look for email from me in a few minutes.
Writerdog,
The difference between you and I, many liberals and I, is that you see America as the bully.
I see Saddam Hussein as the bully.
He was not some innocent man harmlessly minding his own business untill big bad mean America the bully decided to steal his countries resources.
That is the glaring difference. People like you view America as the bully when I view Saddam as the problem.
Nathan
It possible to have two bullys. Bush and Saddam both fit that category.
In agreement with Ed this time, and we ought to lump the asshole from Iran in there too.
Hey, Be nice. Your talking about my buddy.
Ed you really need to get out and make new friends.
TransAmerica: Truth in Advertising note here.
The movie is about a male to female transgendered person who is preparing for his/her sex change operation and finds out that he/she has a 17 yr old son (whom he didn’t know about) in a juvenile detention facility in New York City. In order to get his/her psychiatric release for the surgery, the transgendered person has to go get the son – which he she/he does and they drive across the country from back east to California and get to know one another and the truth of their relationship is accidently and eventually revealed.
I know the whole thing sounds crazy, but it isn’t. My only complaint about the movie was the ending — I was hoping for an everyone lives happily ever after — but that wasn’t delivered.
But the point is not about Saddam being a bully or not! It is about the thought that we invaded to get the oil. Which is it?
Your right you know and now I see, release the dogs of war!How foolish they are that they think it will not be free, release the dogs of war!Let us roll rampant upon their bodies, release the dogs of war!The twenty four of Haditha is not enough, release the dogs of war!Kill them all and do it with glee, release the dogs of war!You have oil you must flee, release the dogs of war!It shall matter not if your women agree, release the dogs of war!For their bodies are my prize indeed, release the dogs of war!Your children are nothing to me, release the dogs of war!Their bodies shall be fuel for my fires, release the dogs of war!
For I am powerful and you are not, release the dogs of war!You hold for me what is mine, release the dogs of war!If you were to come with me, release the dogs of war!My table scraps I will feed thee, release the dogs of war!But if you will not I will consume, release the dogs of war!For I am mighty and you are in my way, release the dogs of war!Stand in my way and your children shall feed my fires, release the dogs of war!My enemies I shall defame, release the dogs of war!For they are not as mighty as me, release the dogs of war!They are not human but stones under my feet, release the dogs of war!Might makes right or so the story shall be told, release the dogs of war!
For when all is consumed and I stand alone, release the dogs of war!I will be king of all that is left, release the dogs of war!No wife have I nor friend is close, release the dogs of war!For I am not longer a man with whom a kind word would be shed,for I am the one that released the dogs of war!
Writerdog,
Has there been a war you agree with?
Nathan?
Matthew 5:9Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. (KJV)
I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving hysterical naked,
dragging themselves through the negro streets at dawn looking for an angry fix,
angelheaded hipsters burning for the ancient heavenly connection to the starry dynamo in the machinery of night,
who poverty and tatters and hollow-eyed and high sat up smoking in the supernatural darkness of cold-water flats floating across the tops of cities contemplating jazz,
who bared their brains to Heaven under the El and saw Mohammedan angels staggering on tenement roofs illuminated
who passed through universities with radiant cool eyes hallucinating Arkansas and Blake-light tragedy among the scholars of war,
who were expelled from the academies for crazy & publishing obscene odes on the windows of the skull,
who cowered in unshaven rooms in underwear, burning their money in wastebaskets and listening to the Terror through the wall,
who got busted in their pubic beards returning through Laredo with a belt of marijuana for New York.
who ate fire in paint hotels or drank turpentine in Paradise Alley, death, or purgatoried their torsos night after night
with dreams, with drugs, with waking nightmares, alcohol and cock and endless balls,
incomparable blind streets of shuddering cloud and lightning in the mind leaping toward poles of Canada & Paterson, illuminating all the motionless world of Time between,
Peyote solidities of halls, backyard green tree cemetery dawns, wine drunkenness over the rooftops, storefront boroughs of teahead joyride neon blinking traffic light, sun and moon and tree vibrations in the roaring winter dusks of Brooklyn, ashcan rantings and kind king light of mind,
who chained themselves to subways for the endless ride from Battery to holy Bronx on benzedrine until the noise of wheels and children brought them down shuddering mouth-wracked and battered bleak of brain all drained of brilliance in the drear light of Zoo,
who sank, all night in submarine light of Bickford’s floated out and sat through the stale beer afternoon in desolate Fugazzi’s, listening to the crack of doom on the hydrogen jukebox,
who talked continuously seventy hours from park to pad to bar to Bellevue to museum to the Brooklyn Bridge,
a lost battalion of platonic conversationalists jumping down the stoops off fire escapes off windowsills off Empire State out of the moon,
yacketayakking screaming vomiting whispering facts and memories and anecdotes and eyeball kicks and shocks of hospitals and jails and wars,
whole intellects disgorged in total recall for seven days and nights with brilliant eyes, meat for the Synagogue cast on the pavement,
who vanished into nowhere Zen New Jersey leaving a trail of ambiguous picture postcards of Atlantic City Hall,
suffering Eastern sweats and Tangerian bone-grindings and migraines of China under junk-withdrawal in Newark’s bleak furnished room,
who wandered around and around at midnight in the railroad yard wondering where to go, and went, leaving no broken hearts,
who lit cigarettes in boxcars boxcars boxcars racketing through snow toward lonesome farms in grandfather night,
who studied Plotinus Poe St. John of the Cross telepathy and bop kaballa because the cosmos instinctively vibrated at their feet in Kansas,
who loned it through the streets of Idaho seeking visionary indian angels who were visionary indian angels,
who thought they were only mad when Baltimore gleamed in supernatural ecstasy,
who jumped in limousines with the Chinaman of Oklahoma on the impulse of winter midnight streetlight smalltown rain,
who lounged hungry and lonesome through Houston seeking jazz or sex or soup, and followed the brilliant Spaniard to converse about America and Eternity, a hopeless task, and so took ship to Africa,
who disappeared into the volcanoes of Mexico leaving behind nothing but the shadow of dungarees and the lava and ash of poetry scattered in fireplace Chicago,
who reappeared on the West Coast investigating the F.B.I. in beards and shorts with big pacifist eyes sexy in their dark skin passing out incomprehensible leaflets,
who burned cigarette holes in their arms protesting the narcotic tobacco haze of Capitalism,
who distributed Supercommunist pamphlets in Union Square weeping and undressing while the sirens of Los Alamos wailed them down, and wailed down Wall, and the Staten Island ferry also wailed,
who broke down crying in white gymnasiums naked and trembling before the machinery of other skeletons,
who bit detectives in the neck and shrieked with delight in policecars for committing no crime but their own wild cooking pederasty and intoxication,
who howled on their knees in the subway and were dragged off the roof waving genitals and manuscripts,
who let themselves be fucked in the ass by saintly motorcyclists, and screamed with joy,
who blew and were blown by those human seraphim, the sailors, caresses of Atlantic and Caribbean love,
who balled in the morning in the evenings in rosegardens and the grass of public parks and cemeteries scattering their semen freely to whomever come who may,
who hiccupped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob behind a partition in a Turkish Bath when the blonde & naked angel came to pierce them with a sword,
who lost their loveboys to the three old shrews of fate the one eyed shrew of the heterosexual dollar the one eyed shrew that winks out of the womb and the one eyed shrew that does nothing but sit on her ass and snip the intellectual golden threads of the craftsman’s loom,
who copulated ecstatic and insatiate with a bottle of beer a sweetheart a package of cigarettes a candle and fell off the bed, and continued along the floor and down the hall and ended fainting on the wall with a vision of ultimate cunt and come eluding the last gyzym of consciousness,
who sweetened the snatches of a million girls trembling in the sunset, and were red eyed in the morning but prepared to sweeten the snatch of the sunrise, flashing buttocks under barns and naked in the lake,
who went out whoring through Colorado in myriad stolen night-cars, N.C., secret hero of these poems, cocksman and Adonis of Denver joy to the memory of his innumerable lays of girls in empty lots & diner backyards, moviehouses’ rickety rows, on mountaintops in caves or with gaunt waitresses in familiar roadside lonely petticoat upliftings & especially secret gas-station solipsisms of johns, & hometown alleys too,
who faded out in vast sordid movies, were shifted in dreams, woke on a sudden Manhattan, and picked themselves up out of basements hung over with heartless Tokay and horrors of Third Avenue iron dreams & stumbled to unemployment offices,
who walked all night with their shoes full of blood on the snowbank docks waiting for a door in the East River to open to a room full of steam-heat and opium,
who created great suicidal dramas on the apartment cliff-banks of the Hudson under the wartime blue floodlight of the moon & their heads shall be crowned with laurel in oblivion,
who ate the lamb stew of the imagination or digested the crab at the muddy bottom of the rivers of Bowery,
who wept at the romance of the streets with their pushcarts full of onions and bad music,
who sat in boxes breathing in the darkness under the bridge, and rose up to build harpsichords in their lofts,
who coughed on the sixth floor of Harlem crowned with flame under the tubercular sky surrounded by orange crates of theology,
who scribbled all night rocking and rolling over lofty incantations which in the yellow morning were stanzas of gibberish,
who cooked rotten animals lung heart feet tail borsht & tortillas dreaming of the pure vegetable kingdom,
who plunged themselves under meat trucks looking for an egg,
who threw their watches off the roof to cast their ballot for Eternity outside of Time, & alarm clocks fell on their heads every day for the next decade,
who cut their wrists three times successively unsuccessfully, gave up and were forced to open antique stores where they thought they were growing old and cried,
who were burned alive in their innocent flannel suits on Madison Avenue amid blasts of leaden verse & the tanked-up clatter of the iron regiments of fashion & the nitroglycerine shrieks of the fairies of advertising & the mustard gas of sinister intelligent editors, or were run down by the drunken taxicabs of Absolute Reality,
who jumped off the Brooklyn Bridge this actually happened and walked away unknown and forgotten into the ghostly daze of Chinatown soup alleyways & firetrucks, not even one free beer,
who sang out of their windows in despair, fell out of the subway window, jumped in the filthy Passaic, leaped on negroes, cried all over the street, danced on broken wineglasses barefoot smashed phonograph records of nostalgic European 1930’s German jazz finished the whiskey and threw up groaning into the bloody toilet, moans in their ears and the blast of colossal steamwhistles,
who barreled down the highways of the past journeying to each other’s hotrod-Golgotha jail-solitude watch or Birmingham jazz incarnation,
who drove crosscountry seventytwo hours to find out if I had a vision or you had a vision or he had a vision to find out Eternity,
who journeyed to Denver, who died in Denver, who came back to Denver & waited in vain, who watched over Denver & brooded & loned in Denver and finally went away to find out the Time, & now Denver is lonesome for her heroes,
who fell in hopeless cathedrals praying for each other’s salvation and light and breasts, until the soul illuminated its hair for a second,
who crashed through their minds in jail waiting for impossible criminals with golden heads and the charm of reality in their hearts who sang sweet blues to Alcatraz,
who retired to Mexico to cultivate a habit, or Rocky Mount to tender Buddha or Tangiers to boys or Southern Pacific to the black locomotive or Harvard to Narcissus to Woodlawn to the daisychain or grave,
who demanded sanity trials accusing the radio of hypnotism & were left with their insanity & their hands & a hung jury,
who threw potato salad at CCNY lecturers on Dadaism and subsequently presented themselves on the granite steps of the madhouse with shaven heads and harlequin speech of suicide, demanding instantaneous lobotomy,
and who were given instead the concrete void of insulin metrasol electricity hydrotherapy psychotherapy occupational therapy pingpong & amnesia,
who in humorless protest overturned only one symbolic pingpong table, resting briefly in catatonia,
returning years later truly bald except for a wig of blood, and tears and fingers, to the visible madman doom of the wards of the madtowns of the East,
Pilgrim State’s Rockland’s and Greystone’s foetid halls, bickering with the echoes of the soul, rocking and rolling in the midnight solitude-bench dolmen-realms of love, dream of life a nightmare, bodies turned to stone as heavy as the moon,
with mother finally ******, and the last fantastic book flung out of the tenement window, and the last door closed at 4 AM and the last telephone slammed at the wall in reply and the last furnished room emptied down to the last piece of mental furniture, a yellow paper rose twisted on a wire hanger in the closet, and even that imaginary, nothing but a hopeful little bit of hallucination–
ah, Carl, while you are not safe I am not safe, and now you’re really in the total animal soup of time–
and who therefore ran through the icy streets obsessed with a sudden flash of the alchemy of the use of the ellipse the catalog the meter & the vibrating plane,
who dreamt and made incarnate gaps in Time & Space through images juxtaposed, and trapped the archangel of the soul between 2 visual images and joined the elemental verbs and set the noun and dash of consciousness together jumping with sensation of Pater Omnipotens Aeterna Deus
to recreate the syntax and measure of poor human prose and stand before you speechless and intelligent and shaking with shame, rejected yet confessing out the soul to conform to the rhythm of thought in his naked and endless head,
the madman bum and angel beat in Time, unknown, yet putting down here what might be left to say in time come after death,
and rose reincarnate in the ghostly clothes of jazz in the goldhorn shadow of the band and blew the suffering of America’s naked mind for love into an eli eli lamma lamma sabacthani saxophone cry that shivered the cities down to the last radio
with the absolute heart of the poem of life butchered out of their own bodies good to eat a thousand years.—–
RD,
You make plenty of peace by destroying someone who is a problem.
Tracy, did you compose that? Awesome work!
Nathan, what is a patriot? Someone who is aredently loyal to his country. But what is his or her country. Isn’t it his or her fellow travelers in this all-too-short journey of life. Ancestors yes. Progeny especially.
Is a patriot someone who works to clean up the water we all drink, or the air we all breathe, or works foremostly on helping the weak and downtrodden among us? I think so.
The scum bag mccain is up to more treason it seems. america would have been better off had he never returned from Vietnam!
Orange County Register
Arizona Sen. John McCain on Wednesday urged Hispanic business and civic leaders in Orange County to show their support for the immigration overhaul bill passed by the Senate and persuade his opponents to climb aboard.
McCain, who helped write the bill to boost border and labor enforcement and allow many of the country’s estimated 12 million undocumented immigrants to apply for legal status, said Hispanic voters need to head to the polls and call their elected officials to urge them to back his measure.
“What happens in the next weeks, perhaps months but very likely weeks, will determine not just the issue of immigration in America, but in my view, define what America is all about,” McCain, a Republican, told nearly 350 people in a speech at the Irvine Regency Hyatt organized by the Hispanic 100, an organization of local entrepreneurs.
“This is a call to arms for you to rise up and speak for people who can’t speak up very well for themselves,” he said.Full storyhttp://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=9142
Viva La Raza Blanco!!!
heartlander, Gee I sure wish I did.
That’s part 1 of a 3 part poem by Yippie activist Allen Ginsberg.It’s titled “Howl”.What’s really awesome is to hear Ginsberg recite this from memory!
Nathan, I repeat:
Matthew 5:9Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. (KJV)
Please tell me who Saddam and Iraq were a problem for. Especially after the Gulf War. If we’d mind our own business more, we wouldn’t “need” to go into sovereign countries to “take care of them” because they’re “causing problems” that WE (our Government) were at the root of. Other than issuing Saddam an ultimatum about WMDs and the weapons inspectors, how did GW seek peace with Saddam? Just like Iran, if they don’t do what we want, we won’t sit at the table and discuss things. We’re the Do As I Say Country, and the Hit ‘em With Bombs Country if they do as we do.
I think power has gone to our heads.
I remember Ginsberg…
IIWhat sphinx of cement and aluminum bashed open their skulls and ate up their brains and imagi- nation?Moloch! Solitude! Filth! Ugliness! Ashcans and unob tainable dollars! Children screaming under the stairways! Boyssobbing in armies! Old men weeping in the parks!Moloch! Moloch! Nightmare of Moloch! Moloch the loveless! Mental Moloch! Moloch the heavy judger of men!Moloch the incomprehensible prison! Moloch the crossbone soulless jailhouse and Congress of sorrows! Moloch whosebuildings are judgment! Moloch the vast stone of war! Moloch the stun- ned governments!Moloch whose mind is pure machinery! Moloch whose blood is running money! Moloch whose fingers are ten armies!Moloch whose breast is a canni- bal dynamo! Moloch whose ear is a smoking tomb!Moloch whose eyes are a thousand blind windows! Moloch whose skyscrapers stand in the long streets like endlessJehovahs! Moloch whose fac- tories dream and croak in the fog! Moloch whose smokestacks and antennae crown thecities!Moloch whose love is endless oil and stone! Moloch whose soul is electricity and banks! Moloch whose poverty is thespecter of genius! Moloch whose fate is a cloud of sexless hydrogen! Moloch whose name is the Mind!Moloch in whom I sit lonely! Moloch in whom I dream Angels! Crazy in Moloch! Cocksucker in Moloch! Lacklove andmanless in Moloch!Moloch who entered my soul early! Moloch in whom I am a consciousness without a body! Moloch who frightened meout of my natural ecstasy! Moloch whom I abandon! Wake up in Moloch! Light streaming out of the sky!Moloch! Moloch! Robot apartments! invisible suburbs! skeleton treasuries! blind capitals! demonic industries! spectralnations! invincible mad houses! granite cocks! monstrous bombs!They broke their backs lifting Moloch to Heaven! Pave- ments, trees, radios, tons! lifting the city to Heaven whichexists and is everywhere about us!Visions! omens! hallucinations! miracles! ecstasies! gone down the American river!Dreams! adorations! illuminations! religions! the whole boatload of sensitive bullshit!Breakthroughs! over the river! flips and crucifixions! gone down the flood! Highs! Epiphanies! De- spairs! Ten years’animal screams and suicides! Minds! New loves! Mad generation! down on the rocks of Time!Real holy laughter in the river! They saw it all! the wild eyes! the holy yells! They bade farewell! They jumped off theroof! to solitude! waving! carrying flowers! Down to the river! into the street!
IIICarl Solomon! I’m with you in Rockland where you’re madder than I amI’m with you in Rockland where you must feel very strangeI’m with you in Rockland where you imitate the shade of my motherI’m with you in Rockland where you’ve murdered your twelve secretariesI’m with you in Rockland where you laugh at this invisible humorI’m with you in Rockland where we are great writers on the same dreadful typewriterI’m with you in Rockland where your condition has become serious and is reported on the radioI’m with you in Rockland where the faculties of the skull no longer admit the worms of the sensesI’m with you in Rockland where you drink the tea of the breasts of the spinsters of UticaI’m with you in Rockland where you pun on the bodies of your nurses the harpies of the BronxI’m with you in Rockland where you scream in a straightjacket that you’re losing the game of the actual pingpong ofthe abyssI’m with you in Rockland where you bang on the catatonic piano the soul is innocent and immortal it should never dieungodly in an armed madhouseI’m with you in Rockland where fifty more shocks will never return your soul to its body again from its pilgrimage to across in the voidI’m with you in Rockland where you accuse your doctors of insanity and plot the Hebrew socialist revolution againstthe fascist national GolgothaI’m with you in Rockland where you will split the heavens of Long Island and resurrect your living human Jesus fromthe superhuman tombI’m with you in Rockland where there are twenty-five-thousand mad com- rades all together singing the final stanzasof the InternationaleI’m with you in Rockland where we hug and kiss the United States under our bedsheets the United States that coughsall night and won’t let us sleepI’m with you in Rockland where we wake up electrified out of the coma by our own souls’ airplanes roaring over theroof they’ve come to drop angelic bombs the hospital illuminates itself imaginary walls col- lapse O skinny legions runoutside O starry spangled shock of mercy the eternal war is here O victory forget your underwear we’re freeI’m with you in Rockland in my dreams you walk dripping from a sea- journey on the highway across America in tearsto the door of my cottage in the Western night
RD,
I always love a good discussion about the Bible. Thank you for bringing it up!
I have a few questions for you so we can stir up a little bit of a discussion about the verse you brought forth.
Do you know what that verse is part of, more specifically, what the group of verses is called which it is a part of?
Do you know what peacemakers is referring to in that group of verses?
RD,
Another question I have for you is how you came upon that verse?
Were you studying the bible and happened to find that verse?
Perhaps you found that verse while reading through the Gospel, refreshing your memory on Jesus teachings?
I am curious if while studying that verse and the chapter of Matthew it is in you looked at the meaning of peacemaker?
I ask if you looked at what peacemaker meant, because it can mean many things. I am curious as to just what exactly you message you meant to convey with that scripture here.
I ask because right now I am only assuming you brought that scripture here to show that support of war is not being a peacemaker.
That is only an assumption, so what do you wish to convey with that scripture here?
Yes the Yes Nathan, there have been a few. The Revolution for it was need for this country to be free. World war two, not only were we attacked by the Japanese but Hitler would not have let us stay out of it. Since then the reasons have gotten few, mainly to shore up some two bit dictator in Korea and Vietnam But both of those were truly as a result of treaties that this country had committed to. Grenada and Panama were needed, along with Afghanistan again we were attacked.
I was against the war in Vietnam, until I learned more and like could be said of Iraq I talked with someone that had been there. I learned that the United States had signed a treaty at the end of WWII that was a mutual aid pact. Vietnam was also a co-signer, a man is nothing if not for his word. Also I had the chance to talk to a Sailor whom was assign to a river boat. He too was against our commitment in Vietnam and personally resented being sent there for no good reason to his thinking. But two weeks after arriving his boat had stopped at a village that they had stopped at going up river at the beginning of the week. They found that the V.C. had used the village chief and his family as an example to not talk to the American. They had been staked out and disemboweled, they found the chief’s daughter still alive. Ants crawling all over her exposed intestines, she was pleading for help. The medic said even if they were standing right next to a full surgery hospital, she could not have been saved. The suggestion to put a bullet into her head came up, but mercifully she died before they decided to.
He said right then he knew why he was there, some one had to stop these animals.I know, so what is the difference with Iraq? yes I agree we stopped a bad man, but shall we stop all of them?Claiming nobility as to why we are there, when all is said and done and the last one dies. It will be then that our nobility will be judged. If we are walking away with a barrel of oil under each arm, nobility will not be what this invasion will be judge by.
I actually think of you often in this, for the reason why you are going is important to me. But as I set in this chair and type. I am secure in the knowledge that there is no one waiting for me in the kitchen with a AK or RPG. There are no IED placed just inside of my bedroom waiting for me to pass through on the way to the bathroom So I can scream to the heavens about why you will be there, with no fear that I will alert an enemy that wishes to kill me. Nathan, if one of us has to go I would rather it be me, I have no love for war! Only a mad man would have that , but I had a life already, three wonderful kids and a wife that loves me for reasons I can not understand. I look back with the eyes of a older man, you look forward with the eye of a young man who will want to be forty eight and three kids and a woman that you will never understand why she would ever love a bastard like you? I wish that upon you, LoL I would curse it upon you!
But I will not be the one that every time I climbing up into my vehicle, will have a moments thought “Will this be my last?”. I will not find myself ducking behind a wall to escape the bullets and look over and see the guy I had just been talking to with half his face blown off. I do not know what your DD214 reads, but I know this you are a Marine “First in war, first in peace and first in the hearts of men”. It is your job and you have been trained well. At that moment you will have far more pressing things to think about that why you are there. As a old man that becomes my job, to see that the reasons you are there behind that wall are the best damn reasons in the world! Of course after the died are buried and the war has ended, looking back from those graves do there ever seem to be good enough reason?
So I worry that I will give you cause to hesitate, that you will question while the bullets hit the wall beside you . I have no fear of that with the others, never… never think that I do not support you in this effort! Until your name comes back on this blog, I will pray for that day. To hold feet to the fire and pray is the best a old man can do. LOL and curse you with the kids and wife!
Thanks all for the DVD comments.
Changing the subject, maybe, once more — RD I noticed you said that you do writing in what sounded like a serious way. Could you tell us all more about that?
This seems far fetched, but shrub is such a degenerate lowlife that nothing would surprise me. :)
By Wayne Madsen6-2-6
Rocky shoals for Bush marriage? Informed sources Inside the Beltway report that First Lady Laura Bush has established temporary residence in the Mayflower Hotel in Washington, DC as a result of a tiff with President Bush over an extramarital relationship involving her husband. Mr. Bush’s tryst is said to involve Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.It is not known how long Mrs. Bush plans to remain at the Mayflower, however, her security detail has been present at the hotel during hours when the First Lady would normally be residing in the White House.While she was National Security Adviser, Rice, who has never been married, referred to George W. Bush as “my husband” before she corrected herself and said, “the president.” Rice was speaking at a dinner when she made her “husband” remarks.WMR is tracking the Laura Bush story.First Lady reportedly discovers that “The Decider” decided to violate his marriage vows — moves out.http://waynemadsenreport.com/
Viva La Raza Blanco!!!
“While she was National Security Adviser, Rice, who has never been married, referred to George W. Bush as “my husband” before she corrected herself and said, “the president.” Rice was speaking at a dinner when she made her “husband” remarks.”
Rice said this in front of NY Times editorial writer, Maureen Dowd. Talk about either being stupid or suicidal???
Perhaps a Freudian slip.
Nathan, trying to demean me does not help your cause.
You insinuate that I have never read the Bible and know nothing about it. In fact, you do that repeatedly. Your sarcasm is not missed by me, and only makes me laugh all that much harder.
But to be fair, I’ll answer your questions, unlike the “answers” from you that I’ve gotten.
Here’s a 2-for-1:
“Do you know what that verse is part of, more specifically, what the group of verses is called which it is a part of?”
“Another question I have for you is how you came upon that verse?”
That scripture is part of the Beatitudes, which I learned in Vacation Bible School when I was maybe 9? At an age, I’m sure you’ll agree, that I could grasp what it meant, to at least some degree. They are a portion of the Sermon on the Mount of the Gospel of Matthew, which, yes, I’ve read, more than once. (The whole Gospel, not just portions.) Luke has a paralell according to the Sermon on the Plain.
“Do you know what peacemakers is referring to in that group of verses?”
Interpretations differ, so I’m sure that whatever I say as my interpretation, you’ll have another interpretation. This is one of the many reasons why there are so many sects of the Christian Church. Why should I bother?
“Were you studying the bible and happened to find that verse?”
Studying the Bible is not a part of my daily routine, but I do have Biblegate bookmarked for easy reference. Copying and pasting is so much easier than typing it all out, don’t you agree?
“Perhaps you found that verse while reading through the Gospel, refreshing your memory on Jesus teachings?”
Your sarcasm is showing Nathan. :)
“I am curious if while studying that verse and the chapter of Matthew it is in you looked at the meaning of peacemaker?”
I just re-read Mathew 5, the entire chapter, and I really don’t know what you’re asking me.
Now I have a question for you. Why is it that at times you and others take the Bible literally, yet at different times, you interpret it according to what you want or need it to mean?
I chose my path of faith after several years of searching and educating myself, of using the common sense God, if you will, gave me. I’m sure YOU would question MY faith, if I were to expect you to conform to it.
Nathan?
” RD,You make plenty of peace by destroying someone who is a problem.”
That MAY be the most personally illustrative thing you have ever posted. It gives me pause to wonder just how much you go through life with just that sentiment and also just who or what in your personal view is “a problem”
Keep wondering JR… I hope it gives you something to do.
Changing the subject, maybe, once more — RD I noticed you said that you do writing in what sounded like a serious way. Could you tell us all more about that?
Don’t mean to be too persistent here, but there are benefits to changing the subject. I am not asking anything too personal, I hope. But was wondering if you write fiction, non – do you sell any of it — that was what I was wondering.
On the previous subject, all I will say is that we should remember that most all people are more complex and less toxic than their ideology.
RD, keep it up. You’re on a decent path.
RD,
I was not being sarcastic. I was seriously wondering if you were merely one of the many people here who routinely find some verse and throw it around for no other purpose than to try and show that I am a Christian not looking at the Bible or I am a hypocrite…etc…etc…
I think you didn’t answer my other question, which is why you posted it here?
I now know that you are not just throwing things at me without knowledge, but now I wonder what you are trying to show?
What was your purpose with that verse?
And in answer to your questions:
“Why is it that at times you and others take the Bible literally, yet at different times, you interpret it according to what you want or need it to mean?”
You are not asking me a quesion here RD. You are making a statement about me and others which I don’t agree with and then you are asking me why?
I think many people don’t understand what taking the Bible literraly means. Let me clairfy:
I believe the Bible to be the divinely inspired word of God. I believe that the Bible is an account of the History of God’s people and the life of Christ.
I believe what the Bible says to be true.
The Bible happens to be a comilation of 66 books, written by over 40 authors, over 1500 years too.
The authors have different writing styles and often do sometimes use stories and metaphors and analogies and other writing techniques to convey a message.
I believe in studying the Bible and understanding what it is saying in it’s context.
In your statement you basically accuse me of “…you interpret it according to what you want or need it to mean…”
I have never tried ot inerpret what the Bible says to make it say what I want or need it to mean.
RD,
So I ask you RD, please explain why you posted that verse here and what you think it means?
DD, serious as in getting paid to write? Um, that’s a yes.Just to let you know, I hate doing this for a whole lot of reasons, but it would be rude to not answer, so I will.
I’ve had 5 mass market novels published, the last was on shelves last month, but I doubt you’ll find one now. (and you really wouldn’t know what author to look for ::grin::) I’ll continue to be coy and say that they are relationship novels, although I often joke that they’re fantasy. Okay, some days it isn’t a joke. :)
Somewhere in the archives I explained who my publisher is (Harlequin Enterprises aka Harlequin/Silhouette) and defended the industry with facts. I won’t go into that again, just as I hope I don’t hear a snicker from you. It’s a big business, and H/S books are sold worldwide. I have copies of my translated books from France, Czechoslovakia, Spain, Greece, just to name a few. H/S is an industry leader and based out of Canada.
In a few words, my books were Silhouette Romances, one of the “tamer” romance lines from H/S and often called “traditional romance” because the protaganists do not have sex outside of marriage within the story. Therefore, they really are about the relationship between men and women, with women readers in mind.
But now that the Silhouette Romance line has closed, I’m out of contract and searching for a new niche. Don’t hold your breath though. Out of 1 million submissions to H/S, only about 100 are bought to be published. Like I said, it’s a rat race.
Anything else? :)
Cool, RD. I mean that sincerely. This is too personal, let me see if I can disguise it enough. Have you ever been on an NPR program that had something to do with Wichita?
I’ve known lots of women who read those books. A psychiatrist friend of mine calls them pornography for women — he is too cynical, though. That last crack reminds me of a NY Times article I was reading about the pharmaceutical industry’s failure at developing a Vi*gra equivalent for women. A researcher in the article said something to the effect “We just haven’t been able to find a pill that can convince someone they are in a committed relationship.” He was serious, I thought, but it cracked me up completely.
I hope I haven’t offended you, RD, or any of our feminist friends with this diversion.
Thanks again.
“I’ve had 5 mass market novels published, the last was on shelves last month, but I doubt you’ll find one now.”
Is this typical shelf-life? If it is, it must be a murderous market.
RD,
If you are ever in need of “source material” then I can help you out. I was, in my younger less married days, very active. In fact, I managed on occasion to convert lesbians and as an undergrad, I successfully managed to pull off the “roommate switch” no fewer than seven times!
V.L.R.B!!!!
Ian,
You were a regular Desi Arnes!
RD?
You are a published author? That is cool! I am constantly re-amazed at the folks I discover in these blogs.
Nathan? I give you a hard time because you and your faith give others a hard time. I must confess though that I find you interesting. Now you are going to take this as a shot. It isn’t. But you are the first person I have ever encountered that so literally takes the bible. Again this is not a shot. But to take much of the bible in any way literally is just totally outside my understanding. To ME it is so retranslated and altered through language, evolution of ideas and world views and time, I can see it as nothing more than a sort of folktale. You can make it say just about anything you want it to. (Hence, more than 300 takes on it in the form of doctrinaire Christian religions)
Consider how the alteration or mistranslation of even one word can totallychange the context.
Consider, “Blessed be the peacemakers” Now that is a wonderful sentiment. But then just who gets to define “peacemaker”? Your take on it would no doubt differ vastly from mine.
This is not to discredit you or the bible Nathan. I attempted recently to read it and got to page 5. This is an honest question, “and God moved upon the face of the waters”……..but this is BEFORE the first day? Weren’t the seas created a few days later? Can you explain this? My Sunday school teacher couldn’t.
JR,
I don’t hold any of it against you.
I don’t expect you to think anything about the Bible is truthful.
I have yet to encounter someone who started to believe in God because someone like me debated them into by talking about the Bible.
I will paraphrase something Earl Crepps said in one of his “sermons.”
He talked about the futility of debating with someone on all the little things which are claimed to be discrepencies in the Bible and with Miracles…etc… when you can’t even believe in God.
Ultimately, it comes down to faith. If you are unwilling to believe in God, what is the point in trying to figure out what Genesis says?
Ravi Zacharias also said that when someone comes to you and starts to ask you questions you need to know if they are trying to do one of two things:
1. They are an honest skeptic. They are someone who is seeking the truth and is wanting to know.
2. They are someone who has already chosen what to believe and are just trying to find something to trip you up with.
JR,
Lets face it. Many Christians these days don’t know much of what the Bible says or how to answer many of the things people like you or Brian, or any other atheist tries to trip them up with.
It doesn’t make them bad Christians or stupid. They ultimately believe in God and don’t usually waste their time trying to figure out how to answer question from people who are just trying to trip them up.
I can answer your questions. It is not like there is not an answer.
The question I have for you is why do you ask?
“What was your purpose with that verse?”
It was a comment on your statement, Nathan. I felt you were qualifying peace. I suppose we all do it, at one time or another for various reasons. And maybe I just had the urge to start a discussion. ;)
That verse just popped into my head at the time. My long-term memory is fairly good. Short-term? UGGGGGHHH
As for the “literally” comment I made, it was a sincere question. It’s something I’ve wondered since I was old enough to practice comparative thought. A lot of other things, too, but I’m not about to list all of them. :)
“I believe the Bible to be the divinely inspired word of God. I believe that the Bible is an account of the History of God’s people and the life of Christ.”
You know what, Nathan? That’s cool with me, in and of itself, but I don’t care when others insist I buy into the same thing. Like I’ve stated before, I have many Christian friends, some of them very devoted to their faith. We might not believe exactly the same things when it comes to religion, but our core beliefs of love of fellow man and helping others is the same.
“I believe what the Bible says to be true.”
And that’s okay. I don’t happen to agree, but maybe that’s what makes life interesting. Again, I have friends… :)
“I believe in studying the Bible and understanding what it is saying in it’s context.”
Isn’t that in and of itself interpeting what’s written?
“In your statement you basically accuse me of ‘…you interpret it according to what you want or need it to mean…’”
Well, yeah, but I wouldn’t call it an accusation. It’s a basic fact of being human. We all do it, Nathan. :)
“I have never tried ot inerpret what the Bible says to make it say what I want or need it to mean.”
But that’s what you do when you study it. Hey, we’re all biased in some way.
Definition of ‘interpret:’v. tr.To explain the meaning of: interpreted the ambassador’s remarks.To conceive the significance of; construe: interpreted his smile to be an agreement; interpreted the open door as an invitation.To present or conceptualize the meaning of by means of art or criticism.To translate orally.
v. intr.To offer an explanation.To serve as an interpreter for speakers of different languages.
I didn’t mean it in a snide way, and I’m sorry if you thought I did. Tell ya what. You come deal with my 2-year-old grandson for a day, and we’ll see if you don’t come off sounding a little unhinged.
We’re going to disagree, Nathan. There’s no way out of it. It could be the medium we’re using to communicate is a problem. Well, maybe. In some ways I respect your devotion. I just don’t share it. Mine is in a different direction. So I guess we’ll just continue with these little discussions we have, and somewhere we’ll find some common ground.
Have to admit, JR, that was a lucid post from Nathan.
You have every reason to be suspicious the nature of my question Nathan. I did take pains to reassure you that the question was an honest one.
This is not an attempt to trip you up. You take the bible more literally than anyone I have ever discussed it with. I was simply seeking an answer to that question I asked. I will not hold it over your head if you do not answer. I will not ridicule your answer.
This is honest intellectual curiousity.
I agree that life is a process of interpreting the world and acting in accordance with those interpretations. My cognitive schemata affect how I can understand incoming information. And this is true whether I want to acknowledge it or not. Another way of saying we are all biased.
JR,
Are you asking about Genesis 1:2
The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.
Yes Nathan.
Again, this is not a shot or attempt to trip you up.
You and I are fundamentally and diametrically opposed on just about anything.
Consider this a diplomatic mission on my part.
As you see, I cannot get past page one of your obviously historically and socialogically and culturally significant book without questions as to basic context. Perhaps you can help?
I’ve been at this too long just now. I have to go for awhile. I will look for your answer later.
DD, no offense taken. I’m just usually not real forthcoming. Not from shame, but tacky comments about the genre set my teeth on edge, so I’m a bit defensive about it. And my mama taught me not to brag. :) Besides, it’s a job, a career, not much different than others.
No, I’ve never been on NPR or anything else. I’ve done a few small workshops, but not around here, except within a group where I was a member. I have a friend in Illinois who’s been on one of her local radio stations several times though.
It is a killer market and has a lot of ups and downs. Harlequin/Silhouette books are mainly what’s called “series books.” They’re shorter than single title (big books). Sil. Romances were about 50,000 words, the shortest of the series romances. And, no, I can’t dash one off in a day or two. :) The longest is around 80,000 words and closer to those 100,000+ word single titles.
They’re called series romance because they are numbered, with 4-6 books per line (or type of romance) each month, all by different authors. H/S has 22 different lines, ranging from Inspirational (Christian) romance to a new Erotica line. That’s quite a range of stories. I’d have to get out the calculator to see exactly how many books per month are released, but it’s more than a hundred, thus the short shelf life.
“A psychiatrist friend of mine calls them pornography for women — he is too cynical, though.”
Hmmmm, well, in a sense, I guess he’s right. We females do it with words/our mind (see the comment about the pill ::grin::), instead of pictures. You’d be surprised at how many men read romance. I even know and know of several men who write it. But it’s not much different than, say, sci-fi or mystery, in that it’s a genre with certain constant aspects. Those parameters, such as one man/one woman and a HEA (happily ever after), are what make a romance novel a Romance, although many books, including mystery, include romance within the story. (Dang run-on sentences.)
Okay, end of lesson. I do have some extra copies of my latest book, if anyone truly wants one… They’re free. Oh, and I also design websites for writers and writer groups.
Ian, remember my “fantasy” comment? (laughing hysterically)
Sorry to post again, but does anyone remember Joyce Livingston? She had the Joyce Livingston Show on channel 12 some years ago. Just wondering…
RD– I remember the name- it was a daytime show for years , as I recall.
Oh gawd yes. I was a little kid. My mom watched her. But that was more than a few years ago! More like 35! I even remember the theme music.
Slow down you move too fast You got to make the morning last.
Just kickin down the cobblestones.
Look at the sun and feelin groovy.
Hmmmmm maybe I am a poster child for the errors of letting kids watch TV?
I should google her and find out what happened to her.Why do you ask RD?
JR, I can tell you what she’s doing these days. :) Joyce is a good friend of mine, and her niece was my best friend when we were sophomores in high school, although I didn’t even know they were related. Her niece died five years ago or so from cancer. There was a huge write-up in the Eagle about her. And Joyce lost her husband a couple of years ago, also from cancer. He was, at one time, Parks Commissioner here in Wichita? Don’t quote me on that. I’d have to double check it.
Joyce writes Inspirational Romance for Bethany House publishers. For 4 years, she was one of three roommates of mine at the annual RWA (Romance Writers of America) conference. She is one great lady. I was just curious to see how many people recognized her name. She’s back in Wichita, after living in the northeast part of the state.
Nathan, she’s one of my fabulous Christian friends. I think you’d like her. I sure do.
JR, that’s Feelin’ Groovy aka 49th Street Bridge Song by Simon & Garfunkel. ;) A cute little ditty.
RD, I remember her well. She also had a little dress shop for awhile, didn’t she?I think she was one of the first shows that actually discussed abortion and sex.I miss the locally produced shows, there used to be so many when I was growing up. I was on “Cowboy Frank” one time, anyone remember him? I also watched “Hi Fi Hop” every Saturday. Now I’m really showing my age!!
JR,
If you continue to read the rest of chapter 1, you will see that the creation of the waters was never specifically cited.
In verse 6 it goes right into God’s seperating the waters.
In verse 1 it says God created the heavens and the earth.
The way it is written you assume the waters are merely a part of the earth from verse one.
There is not any contradiction there at all.
I miss the local shows too. Though I’ve no idea who you are talking about Damoon.
RD you can tell Joyce that she is remembered….even her theme music! This isn’t a shot Nathan, but my guess is you have never heard the word “groovy” unless you’ve watched reruns of the Brady Bunch on Nic.
I remember Capt Bill reads the funnies. Also Uncle Bill reads the funnies. I remember “Doodle Time” I watched Santa leave the north pole every Christmas and remember him and Kakeman shilling the long gone Davids store. Henry Harvey is dead but to me he is forever Santa Clause. I still have a letter from him and kakeman. My little brother was on Romper Room with “Miss Fran”
This is fun…….even if it reminds me how old I am and how local, quality programming died for the networks and cable.
So here is my contribution. What current network (not sure which one) sports correspondent was THE hottie for teenage guys in the 80s here in Wichita as a local news co-anchor? Hint: she was the precursor to Susan Peters.
Damoon, I was ON Hi-Fi Hop once! I was about 11 at the time though, so a bit young. I’ve forgotten how many times I was on KARD Gang Club. Enough to spin both wheels and draw a card out of the big cage. It was fun being a kid then, wasn’t it?
Yes, Joyce had a consignment shop! I went there once with friends and bought a maternity sweater. That must’ve been late ‘79 or early ‘80. I think she sold that when they moved up north. She told me, but I forget the details.
I really should let her know that I’ve been talking about her, but her name just popped into my mind earlier, so I asked. It’s nice to find someone who remembers these things.
JR, you’ve got me there. I haven’t a clue. There was an investigative reporter that was really good on KAKE for a while. I can’t remember his name, but I can see him in my mind. Dark hair, nice looking. I met him several times where I worked in the 80’s. Any idea what his name was?
Henry Harvey had a daughter my age and went to Allison Jr. High where I went for 6 weeks. We had a class together. They lived across the street from my piano teacher on University. My piano teacher was the wife of the President of Friends U. Or College, I think, at that time. Just some little things that come to mind…
Told ya my long-term memory was decent. :)
I did promise not to demean your answer Nathan. I will take what you said and read further.
Question: Does this imply that the waters existed before Day 1? Water being basic to all life, does it’s existence at the beginning “with God” seek to acknowledge that in some way? I am not implying any contradiction.
I would appreciate your take further on this Nathan. Don’t skip ahead but my next confusion is to the “firmament”
Henry Harvey lived across the street from a friend of mine. H.H. came to our church and sang. That man had one amazing voice!
Thanks for the memories.
Heartlander had a good idea with the two opens per week. The only drawback is that one open “dies” as soon as a new one is “born”.
It really is sad that there are no more local shows. Particularly sad is no local kids shows. They gave a sense of community that we lack these days I think.
The reporter I mentioned upthread was Andi Joyce by the way. She was like the local “Mary Ann” for my generation. Saw her during the Olympics.
JR..Let me make an attempt to answer your question about Genesis. 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
In other words, God was hovering above the waters of the earth, which were created BEFORE time, which was created with the light in verse 3.3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.Noone knows how long before God created “time”.. it may have been millions or billions of years if time existed. This is why I have no problem reconciling my belief in a young earth with scientific evidence proposed by evolutionary theory.
As for your next question, replace “firmament” with “continent” and see how it reads……
Thank you Ksam, I think.
But the Bible begins “In the beginning…..
Taking what you said with what Nathan said, I still am confused as to just what point the waters were created. Nathan says there is no specific cited time, while with what you post (and upon reading 1 and 2 again) it would seem the waters were created along with the Heavens and the Earth.
I honestly do appreciate the answers. Do you begin to understand why my folks were asked NOT to keep bringing me to Sunday school?
My next confusion is as to the “firmament” Now I get the firmament as land. But 8. “And God called the firmament Heaven”
and 14- as to God putting heavenly bodies in the firmament.
As I say, I get the firmament as land. Is it also Heaven/Space? Or is firmament sort of a general description for an area … sort of along the line of “there” God put this “there ” and that “there”?
JR, I guessed Andy (street smart and sassy!)Joyce the minute you brought her up. I got drunk with her at a party way back in the 80’s, did she ever have a potty mouth!!!She’s married to a famous journalist now, I forget his name.
Harry Smith?
JR..Yes.. “in the beginning” the earth was “waters”.. nothing else.
You might try reading the NIV version. IMHO.. the “firmament” is anything between the waters.. which would include Heaven. This assumes also the there are “waters” beyond what we can see in outer space. I don’t know how anyone will ever know that on this side of Heaven.
Yea, it’s Harry Smith. Andy has come a long way since the old days.
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