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Open thread
- By Phillip Brownlee
- Posted May 19, 2006 at 12:55 p.m.
- Filed under Uncategorized
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148 Comments
Who wants a DAILY open thread? Cast your votes here.
I’m in.
Okay, we’ll run this like the congress does.I declare the voting closed.If you weren’t notified about this session and you missed to vote, we’ll list you as abstaining.The ayes have it, it’s now official, and will probably never happen anyway.
Sure–why not?
Might be worth trying.
Shalom,
I have been observing this blog for some time now but this is my first post. I have been appalled and disgusted by Ed and Ian and their vile, monstrous rantings. “People” like Ed and Ian should have their children taken away and they should be put in prison. In more progressive countries like France both Ed and Ian would be exchanging Hitlerisms behind bars!
I lost family members in the HOLOCAUST and I should not have to be subjected to such hateful musings. People should face prison for racist, anti-Semitic, anti-immigrant speech and for the crime of Holocaust denial. Yes, the Holocaust really happened and if either of the scumbags wish to debate me then I am up for the challenge.
I hope that all of America will follow the lead of the fine people in Boulder Colorado as they seem to be on the right track.
Hate hotline puts speech on holdBy David HarsanyiDenver Post Staff Columnist
There’s a famous joke that goes like this:
What’s the difference between a Rottweiler and a Jewish mother? Eventually, the Rottweiler lets go.
Now, some Jews may find that joke offensive. I don’t. But if you’re insulted, and you live in Boulder, you’re in luck. Soon enough, you may be able to report me to the authorities.
Tuesday, the Boulder City Council will take up the matter of allocating public funding for a “hate hotline,” which would give residents an opportunity to report incidents in which Boulderites use tactless language.
http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_3823356
Shalom
—–
Marvin, we don’t necessarily tolerate them, we ignore them.Hating them in return only keeps them coming back.
Here’s my Zen question for you:WHAT IS THE FINAL DESTINATION OF HATRED?
Hello and goodbye Marvin.
We are quite capable of censoring ourselves here thank you.
It’s called if you don’t like a post don’t read it.
“Hate Hotline”? – will scarlet letters be next?
Tracy, Great one !!
Lemme try…what is the sound of one man hating??
Dear Marvin,
Please don’t stir them up!
Aloha
Hank
Hate Hotlines?We hate Hate Hotlines……..and Illinois Nazis.
Real inviting huh JR?
Fun to beat Democrats.
Should have read:Fun to BE Democrats.
Marvin if you dont think anyone stands up to Ed read the handgun thread. Ed, and Ian usally post thoughts genrally to stupid to reply to.
Standing up to them is an exercise in futility.They apparently do not posses the capacity to shed their hatred.
Marvin, if you weren’t CLUELESS, you’d know that Ed has nothing against Jews, per se. As for Ian, well, there are a lot of people out there who take things a bit too far.
Hating others for their hatred is so… hateful? Not to mention stupid, ridiculous, and downright hypocritical.
RD, I tried to put it a little more politely with the Zen question, but I think you may have unknowingly answered that question.Sort of.
Well, that’s enough for now.I gotta go watch my dog take a shit.I’ll be back tommorrow to blog ya some more.
Marvin,Ya gotta have thick skin to stick around here. I hope you have and do.
I smell a troll.
Hate hotline. LOL!
BlowJoe,
Didn’t you mean to say ‘fun to beat off?’
I say that because, as yet, there is no recorded instance of you having beaten a Democrat on this blog, while it is at least possible, indeed, quite likely, that you have beaten off.
Marvin,
A much better tactic with Ian is to ask why he likes being sodomized by swarthy men. His denials are equally amusing and unconvincing. But even a stopped clock such as Ian can be right in a Pat Buchanan sort of way, and his ‘to the right of Attila the Hun’ criticisms of W are quite bracing.
I decided to boycott Nestle. Why haven’t I heard of this before today? Thank goodness for the SA forums.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestl%C3%A9_boycott
http://www.denverpost.com/harsanyi/ci_3823356Unfortunately, the hate hotline is true. I sent a nasty post to the Denver Post’s open forum. The ACLU is having a problem figuring out what to do: do ya allow people to call in hate speech, or protect first amendment rights . . . duh, people, it’s a no brainer.
Marvin,
Yknow, you really shouldnt blame Ian cause as of now he’s in some maximum security prison in Oakland California and he types racist and bigotted things because he’s been forced on his knees every night to blow the 99% black male inmate population and his lips are kind of sore. You really have to empathize with that, especially since his black pimp Bubba ordered him to pee sitting on his ass from now on. Yep! It’s pretty hard being the only white supremacist in a black prison what with the constant gang-rape in the shower room and having to wear half-shirts and tight short-shorts I hear they’re making him wear lipstick and rouge now. So please, spare him the extended consecutive sentences and don’t rat him out to the hate hotline! Please, the man’s inflamed anus is at stake!
This is a portion of David Gregory’s interview of GW Bush yesterday near the U.S./Mexican border:__________________________________”Gregory: Let me ask you about your leadership. In the most recent survey, your disapproval rating is now one point lower than Richard Nixon’s before he resigned the presidency. You’re laughing.
“President Bush: I’m not laughing.
“Gregory: Why do you think that is?
“President Bush: Because we’re at war. And war unsettles people. Listen, we’ve got a great economy. We’ve added 5.2 million jobs in the last two-and-a-half years, but people are unsettled. They don’t look at the economy and say, ‘life is good.’ They know we’re at war. And I’m not surprised that people are unsettled because of war. The enemy’s got a powerful tool — that is to get on your TV screen by killing innocent people. And my job is to continue to remind the people it’s worth it. We’re not going to retreat hastily. We’re not going to pull out of there before the job’s done and we’ve got a plan for victory.
“Gregory: They’re not just unsettled, sir. They disapprove of the job you’re doing.
“President Bush: That’s unsettled.
“Gregory: That’s how you see it?
“President Bush: Yeah, I do. I see it as the war has — the war is — the war is difficult. And I understand that. I understand why people wonder whether we can win the war or not. But there’s a big difference between some of us who believe we’re doing the right thing and moving forward and a group of people who want to pull out before the job is done.”__________________________________
So, Bush is saying I am not a bad guy, the war is the bad guy. I always thought in the past, most notably WWII, that wars tended to unite and bring people in this country together. Suicide rates drop during wars and I think crime does too.
Rove in a recent speech called the public “sour” on the war and they like Bush as a person and then he quoted some RNC poll results that are much different than any others.
Is the strategy – “good/likable president” – “difficult war” – the two are distinct and unrealted to one another. Will it work? I am thinking that it won’t.
JM Walker,
The hate hotline is a great idea. In fact, it should be federally mandated and funded and instituted on a nation wide basis. At the very least it would force vile racists and anti-Semites like Ian and Ed to be more circumspect in regards to their public utterances!
Shalom
You have to be kidding Marvin.
Marvin, you ignorant slut. Have you never heard of the Bill of Rights? People do that kind of thing in countries, oh, say, such as, North Korea, China, Cuba, to name a few. Maybe you could go there and start a hotline telephone exchange service.
DD,When you run a dictatorship, you don’t have to care about polls.
JM Walker,
If you offend somebody then the constitution is moot!
Shalom
Marvin,
Really?
Shaboom
The Brits and the Europeans are very progressive in dealing with white racism. The following is a great example of what we should be doing here.
Toddlers may already be racists, nurseries toldBy Julie Henry, Education Correspondent(Filed: 07/05/2006)
They may still be in nappies and playing with sand and building blocks but many toddlers are already racists, nurseries have been warned.
To stop prejudice from developing while children are still three years old, staff need to ensure that different racial groups “play together right from day one”, according to Herman Ouseley, the former chairman of the Commission for Racial Equality.
Children may learn to categorise people as early as the age of three
Nursery staff should “discourage separate play” and “help children to unlearn any racist attitudes and behaviour they may have already learnt”, said Lord Ouseley.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/05/07/ntoddle07.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/05/07/ixhome.html
Shalom
I agree with XXX way upthread.
I call Marvin the Martian a troll.
I’ve earlier defended Ed.
In Ians defense, I’d reaffirm what C F said. Ian is no buhinista. And those folks are just plain dangerous. Against them I’ll take any ally I can get.
Further, Ian has shown interest in the rare disease that killed my father. He has posted informative links as to this.
Ian hasn’t been seen for awhile. But whatever Ian is he is HONEST. And I’ve not seen him try to silence anyone.
I don’t know what you are Marvin. I don’t know what your agenda is here. It is my practice to WELCOME “new” posters. But your very first post here was an attack and call for censorship. That we do not need.
Why not establish yourself as a poster before you decide just who and who is not to be read?
Recently someone had sent me an e-mail asking for some of my writing as they write too. The following links are to some of the pieces I have published. If anyone would like to read some of my stuff. Keep in mind that this is from a time that I guess could be called “Clintons, evil of the world”. I had not read these for some time and “The darkness” suddenly had a familar ring to it with what has been happening lately.There are from a now defunct web-zine, LoL I do not think I had any thing to do with that!Read at you own risk, this was on a mainly science fiction zine but is more a glance to the future…a possible future. If it would make it more palatable just read “Bush” where ever you find “Clin’s. It would work either way. I hope some will enjoy.
http://www.demensionszine.com/stories/0305s4.html
http://www.demensionszine.com/stories/0306s5.html
http://www.demensionszine.com/stories/0504s4.html
JR,How does one establish oneself as blogger? You have made references to me just popping up as an unwanted guest; is there some rite of entry I am unaware of?
It’s too late to try and separate the ‘war president’ from his own personal war.
Gster?
Huh?
I never posted that you were an unwanted guest!
I also am no arbiter of who is and is not a blogger!
I merely suggested that Marvin post his own stuff instead of attacking others.
JR”I merely suggested that Marvin post his own stuff instead of attacking others.”
Unless gster just outed himself and is indeed Marvin the motormouth.
Well I’ll give gster the benefit of the doubt J M.
Gster? I said this
PM”Well off topic first a bit gster.Are you new to blogging? I know you are fairly new here. You just kinds jumped in on us and probably didn’t get the welcome we usually extend.”
How that proposes some test or standard I don’t know. If my post implied that I apologize.
Marvin is either a troll or a moron. Maybe both. He’ll bear watching.
“If you offend somebody then the constitution is moot!”
I rest my case.
Here are two interesting Wikipedia articles. I found them accidentally because a recent article mentioned that Bush in Spanish is Arbusto, and and I typed this in to see what turned up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbusto_Energyhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_bin_Mahfouz
Maybe Bush wants to say, but doesn’t know how to say it, to the American public: “Ya see, I got involved with this polygamous, incestuous Arab family a while back–they helped get me started in bidness when I was a young man– and so I feel personally responsible, to a degree, for 9/11, since it was instigated by this family that helped me get started in bidness, and I’m tryna correct my mistake. Ya see, this whole terrorism thing is a family feud instigated by disgruntled members of the family that helped me get started in bidness.”
A few bad apples like “Marvin” make all Jews look bad, as well as threaten their unprotected safety worldwide. He’s a Nazi who has given himself a coat of “Zionist paint” { to make him invisible }.
European Jews suffered, just as the miles of white crosses marking the graves of those who liberated them attests.
Population figures don’t jive with Marvin’s ilk, they can’t, as one historian put it “because they’re still there.”
But the Zionists, like Marvin, will fight tooth and nail, tell any lie, murder any Palestinian, sacrifice any busload of working-class Jews, to save their “cash-cow,” and keep on collecting { 1.6 trillion from the US since 1973 }.
With “Marvin” truth becomes “hate-speech,” and facts are just a forgery away.
“Know a tree by the fruit it bears” { Or in this case; the one million olive trees uprooted }.
I feel so much better going to sleep tonight knowing that the blog police are hard at work…
Will we be forming a committee to review the validity of certain posters here?
How bout we start a petition to block certain IP address of people we don’t like to talk to?
Sigh…
When I first joined this blog, some Zionist insisted that: The massacre at Dir Yassin never happened because the Palestinian village of Dir Yassin “never existed.”
The Zionist said: ” I will destroy your argument about Dir Yassin.”
There were about a dozen web-sites devoted to; “there never was a Dir Yassin,” but now they’re gone along with the Zionist. { I uncovered a Rabbi in Jerusalem who had kept the diaries of the Israeli soldiers who conducted the massacre, it had saddened their hearts }.
I really don’t understand the Zionists, when A Jewish State could have been established without all the bloodshed. I think megalomania defies understanding, as Bush seems to be infected with it, as well as Ariel Sharon.
Sealing our southern border.
1. If your foot touches the water we will shoot to kill.
2. Fox, you’d better put the Mexican Army on your side of the river to keep your people from attempting to cross, thus being shot.
3. Build factories in Mexico { jobs start with building the factories } for businesses to build the things we are importing from China and other foreign countries.
4. Round-up all illegal aliens and ship them home.
5. Stop giving money and weapons to Zionist Israel
6. Stop all the “terrorism” crap.
Why didn’t the 6 million fight back? Because it never happen and that’s what “Marvin” is so desperately trying to defend.
Bonafide historians will rip his story all to hell.
How does open debated hurt anything? It doesn’t, but does have a way of exposeing a fraud.
25 million Russians were killed, but “Marvin” doesn’t have nmuch comment about that, now does he?
Look everybody–Horst Wessel made a poopie!
Horst Wessel, DARE you to show your face at the next picnic. I was nice to Nathan because he’s a good kid. You’re a different story. Show up if you want a Jew to spit in your face and grind you into the intellectual dirt.
Ed,
I’m not sure, but it sounds like you’re running a garden variety ‘Holocaust never happened/big Jewish conspiracy’ revisionist argument of the David Irving sort. I respect you though I often disagree with your views. But please clarify whether this is indeed the line you are taking.
Get it straight: The Nazis killed 6 million Jews from Europe not 6 million Jews from Germany only.
POSTS BY TRACY:
Whatever you do, don’t read the mamby pamby, middle of the road posts by Tracy.
He is so mediocre. All he ever does is crack stupid jokes.
He never has anything substantial or controversial to say. I think he should be banned for lack of devisiveness.
I second that. I mean, if someone like TRACY is rational and ironic in a self-deprecating way, what’s to attack? Where’s the fun in that?
I propose to the members of the WeBlog community, that TRACY be placed under a form of blog probation, under which he/she be allowed to post only on the condition of engaging in a weekly minimum of three personal attacks and episodes of shameless self-aggrandizement.
Barring that, TRACY leaves us no choice but to bar him/her from taking up space with his/her well-reasoned and humorous posts.
Who is Horst Wessel?
Regarding the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust, CrusaderX is, of course, correct. German Jews accounted for a fraction of the total number of murdered Jews. Poland, by far and away, suffered the worst losses, with 2.8 million murdered Jews.
Here are the country-by-country breakdowns. The first number is the 1939 population, the second is the number of Jews murdered through various means, and the third is the percentage loss of Jewish population in that country from 1939-1945.
1. Poland 3,300,000 2,800,000 85.02. USSR (occupiedterritories) 2,100.000 1,500,000 71.43. Romania 850,000 425,000 50.04. Hungary 404,000 200,000 49.55. Czechoslovakia 315,000 260,000 82.56. France 300,000 90,000 30.07. Germany 210,000 171,000 81.08. Lithuania 150,000 135,000 90.09. Holland 150,000 90,000 60.010. Latvia 95,000 85,000 89.511. Belgium 90,000 40,000 44.412. Greece 75,000 65,000 80.013. Yugoslavia 75,000 55,000 73.314. Austria 60,000 40,000 66.615. Italy 57,000 15,000 26.316. Bulgaria 50,000 7,000 14.017. Others 20,000 6,000 30.0_________ _________ ____Totals 8,301,000 5,978,000 72.0___________________________________________________________________________
Source: Cited in Landau, The Nazi Holocaust, Chicago: Ivan R. Dee, 1994.These data originally appeared in Poliakov and Wulf (eds), Das Dritte Reich und die Juden: Documente und Aufsatze (Arani Verlag, GmbH, Berlin, 1955).
http://www.mtsu.edu/~baustin/jewvicts.html
Horst is a troll and was a nazi pimp
Dingus,
Indeed; and make that GAY nazi pimp. Not that there’s anything wrong with that–being gay, I mean.
CF, With a history of being treated so badly, it seems you would speak out against this daily happening. { other than trying to justify it }.
Last update – 21:25 20/05/2006″IDF kills Jihad man, three family members in Gaza”"By Amos Harel and Arnon Regular, Haaretz Correspondents, Haaretz Service and Itim”"Israel launched a targeted airstrike Saturday killing Mohammed Dahduh, a senior operative of the “Al-Quds Brigades,” the military wing of Islamic Jihad, in Gaza City.
Three other Palestinian bystanders – a mother, her five-year-old son, and the boy’s grandmother – were also killed in the operation. A three-year-old girl suffered serious injuries.
In the neighborhood of 6:30 P.M., IAF aircraft hovering over Gaza City launched a number of missiles which struck vehicles on the crowded street below, including a Mitzubishi pick-up truck carrying Dahduh and a nearby taxi cab with the three dead bystanders inside.
The dead bystanders have been identified as Hanan Aman, 25; her five-year-old son, Muhind; and the woman’s mother-in-law, Naima, 45. Mariyah Aman, 3, is in serious condition. Four other Palestinians were wounded in the strike.
Dahduh’s brother, Khaled Dahduh, who was also active in the Islamic Jihad, was killed two months ago in a pipe-bomb explosion believed to have been orchestrated by Israel”
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/717898.html
Every day, every day, Judge, Jury and Executioner.
That is called a war crime and the world knows it and about it happening.
Societies built on the ashes of this behavior self-destruct. It does happen when you start believing your own bullshit.
Check history.
Friedemann say: ” Man with dirty hands cannot eat clean sandwich”
The old toad says:” Time is fun if you have flies”.
Uhhh, Ed, got news for you: I do speak out about the illegal treatment of the Palestinians and against the conditions enforced by Israel in the occupied territories.
Sharon, in my view, is pretty much the devil, and took the easy way out by having a stroke rather than being tried and imprisoned for his crimes against humanity.
That’s partly why I rarely say anything about your posts: I agree with your criticism of the Israeli state and its current policies of apartheid and political assassination regarding the Palestinians. An injury to one is an injury to all.
Having said that, I can, with perfect consistency, point to the facts of the Holocaust AS facts. I have no stake in perpetuating a Jewish victimology that immunizes the Jewish state from its responsibility for violence against innocents, and its use of illegal tactics.
By contrast, it’s no coincidence that Holocaust deniers are, so often, haters of Judaism, denials to the contrary notwithstanding. I haven’t pushed you on this question, Ed, because I have seen you as fairly careful about distinguishing Zionism from Judaism. But if you want to deny the Holocaust as an historical reality, that moves you several steps closer to vulnerability to the charge of anti-Semitism.
So are you going to answer my question, Ed?
It is a fact that criticism of Zionism and the State of Israel is defacto criticism of the Jewish Race! People like Ed use weasel words to obfuscate rather than admit the true depth of their hatred of Jews.
The same is true in regards to the immigration debate. Most whites drone on about “illegal immigration” when they really object on racial grounds. How many white americans would object if their were 10 million swedes or germans living here rather than millions of brown and black skinned people from poor third world countries? Most white goyim are racist and anti-Semitic but don’t have the guts to admit it!
I despise that racist coward santiago but at least he has the guts to admit that he object to immigration as a matter of race rather than legal trivialities.
Shalom.
Marvin: That looks a lot like English if you squint just right ( or left)!
CF
I don’t like the Zionist G-D slogans.
1. anti-Semitism
2. Jew-hater
3. Holocaust denier
4 Terrorism, terrorist
Or the attack on Free Speech in speculating about how many Jews were murdered during WW2
Zionist-Jews and a few self-righteous Jews think their shit doesn’t stink and they are the only ones who were killed in WW2.
The Zionist and their supporters seem more interested in standing on 6,000,000 than an actual number { which could even be more }.
The point is; they want to tell me what to think, so here what I think: Take a Flying F……..
Not you CF, not you.
I wouldn’t give a Zionist the right time of day. Good Jews can have my love. And in a fire-fight, I would drag them to safety.
Marin is an asshole.
Barry Bonds just tied Babe Ruth–in number of home runs, not integrity, of course.
How many home runs would Ruth have hit if he’d taken drugs?
And how many would Bonds have hit had he not pumped himself up like a gorilla?
We’ll never know and that’s why Bonds’ record will be a fraud forever.
How do you know that Babe Ruth didn’t pump himself with drugs also? There was no testing back then. We has a fatso angry alcoholic and if he was living in todays media, everybody probably wouldn’t think to highly of him either.
“smartperson”
You are only angry because a Black man has overtaken the mark held by white Babe Ruth! Why do you not criticize the lily white steroid freak, Mark McGwire? You are a racist and as such a very, very, DUMB person.
shalom
Marvin Ziegler,
When I criticize the Israeli policy of assassination and the territorial claims of Likud, does that make ME an anti-Semite? Such a line of ‘reasoning’ is every bit as weaselly as the anti-Semitic word games you decry. Does challenging AIPAC’s claim to represent me make ME an anti-Semite, Marvin Ziegler?
Does denouncing the Sabra and Chatila massacres of 1982, and Sharon’s role in orchestrating them, make ME an anti-Semite? Would I need to endorse them in order not to be anti-Semite? And are YOU willing to disavow them, Marvin Ziegler?
Ed,I accept your answer, though I have a lingering discomfort regarding the distinction between ‘Zionists’ and ‘good Jews.’ And frankly, Ed, it embarrasses me to see you on the same side of the street as hucksters like David Irving, though I will credit you with having your own reasons.
Good folks is good folks, assholes is assholes. And I agree that the word ‘terrorist’ is a floating signifier devoid of meaning.
CF,
It is easy enough for Diaspora Jews such as yourself, safely ensconced in Kansas to be critical of Israeli policy. Israel is involved in a life or death struggle against an implacable enemy, Islam. The Persian Hitler has stated that Israel should be wiped off the map and the Palestinians are in league with him. Sometimes, in a war for survival, you must engage in some unpleasantness.
I am not saying that you are an anti-Semite but your criticisms of Israel provide aid and succor to our enemies. Do you think that when the times comes the goyim will distinguish between good Jews and bad? If you do believe so then I fear that you are delusional.
shalom.
Joe, anabolic steroids weren’t even invented until the 1930s, and American scientists didn’t begin figuring out the connection between anabolic steroids and their medical utility for another decade.
Babe Ruth retired in 1935, just about the time anabolic steroids were invented.
And actually, we had a fatso HAPPY alcoholic, thankyouverymuch.
BTW, didja notice how many of Mark McGuire’s home runs hit in 1998 ( the year he hit 70) were moon shots that just fell over the right-field wall?
If you know baseball, this is the spot that a RH hitter will place a fastball swung on late. The key difference is that for most guys who are (1) smaller in stature than McGwire, and (2) not juiced, this usually results in an easy popout to shallow right. For McGwire, however, these probably accounted for 15-25 of his home-runs that year.
And Bonds is far worse.
My late father was an avid Yankee fan. He would have had something to say about Bonds v Ruth.
Ruth was a thouroughly nice guy to his young fans. He often made sure that they got to see a game or got hot dogs.Not like today when some players charge for their autograph.Ruth hit many of his homeruns in Yankee stadium which has deeper outfields than places like say Atlanta where Hank Aaron hit his home runs, or alot of the parks where Bonds hit his.
Ruth not only did not have drugs. He also did not have the high tech science that goes into the game on every level now. Ruth made his mark with just a bat and his talent.
As my dad would have said, McGuire or Bonds couldn’t carry Ruth’s jockstrap.
Well, we have our answer. Marvin Ziegler is willing, in the name of Israel’s existential situation, to countenance ’some unpleasantness.’ How much ‘unpleasantness’, Marvin Ziegler? A nuclear pre-emptive strike against Iran, perhaps?
Did you ever consider, Marvin Ziegler, that the willingness to engage in ’some unpleasantness’ is a contributing cause to, rather than an effect of, Israel’s precarious situation?
You try to dismiss ME as a diaspora Jew? Where are YOU writing from, Marvin Ziegler? And if you ARE in Israel, how does that line of criticism bear on those Israelis who belong to Labor or, for that matter, Kadima? What is YOUR political affiliation? Do you belong to AIPAC, and are you paid to disseminate AIPAC’s propaganda and character assassination?
Moreover, Islam is not the ‘implacable enemy’ of Judaism. Saying that it is divests you of YOUR responsibility for acting in less-than-human ways toward your political enemies. If you believe that the Shoah justifies the use of any means necessary against other populations, then Hitler has won. Simple as that.
Further, Ahamdinejad never said what you say he said. Period. The interpretation you quote is a decontextualized media fabrication. This is not to defend him, but to say that, in a conflict with an asshole, which Ahamdinejad undoubtedly is, one can only be responsible for what one says and does oneself. His words are no pretext for Israel’s aggressive actions. Period.
Finally, don’t try to play the ‘aid and succor to our enemies’ card. The truth can stand the truth. Your dishonest position requires silence and intimidation, and a dishonorable silence to boot. The only ‘delusional’ one here is you, Marvin Ziegler, and your Kahane-driven fantasy that peace grows out of the barrel of a gun rather than from justice.
CF,
We are facing a radical Palestinian government who have as a stated goal the eradication of our Jewish nation. The Persians are working on their very own Final Solution and you think we should or could negotiate with these “people”? I believe in a two state solution but it must be on OUR terms and it must come without compromising OUR security!
Shalom.
ED,
So, you also advocate the murder of undocumented workers and call for their deportation, in cattle cars perhaps? This all sounds familiar to me.
I was right, Ed, you are a racist as well as an anti-Semite and Holocaust denier. In a perfect world, you would be locked up with the decrepit Zundel and Irving!
Shalom.
Marvin–A little kid that says dirty words he can’t possibly understand.
Marvin Ziegler,
Your refusal to answer my earlier direct questions about the level of violence you are willing to countenance, and the refusal to disavow the atrocities committed against Palestinians, frankly, undermines your supposed endorsement of a two-state solution.
With regard to your question, the Palestinian Authority is currently being starved out by the U.S. and Israel. To say that they pose an existential threat to Israel, at present, is ludicrous.
As for Iran, would that Israel, AIPAC, and the U.S. had done more to encourage moderate elements within Iranian political culture. They did not. By refusing to ignore Iranian diplomatic overtures back in 2003-4, the above powers helped to bring about the ascension of hard-liners like Ahamdinejad in Iran. One suspects this was their goal all along; war rather than negotiated settlements, on ‘their own’ terms in a dogmatic fashion.
To now point to Iran in such alarmist fashion merely confirms your distaste for negotiating with those who you dismissively refer to as “people.” So, remind me, Marvin Ziegler–who is the racist here?
You still haven’t answered my questions. Are you in Israel or the United States? And are you a paid stooge of AIPAC?
The cycle of violence in the Middle East will never end unless the Jews and the Palestinians see each other with eyes unclouded by hate.
It will continue until if they love their children more than they hate their enemies. The classic paradox.
“A Cultist is one who has a strong belief in the Bible and the Second Coming of Christ; who frequently attends Bible studies; who has a high level of financial giving to a Christian cause; who home schools his children; who has accumulated survival foods and has a strong belief in the 2nd Amendment, and who distrusts Big Government.” (Janet Reno, in a speech before an ATF luncheon, Washington, D.C.)
Ed was and is right!
Isn’t it sad, that a beautiful animal, such as Barabo, has to suffer a life threatening injury, to satisfy the egos of the” money dominated,” in our society?
Let’s bring back, “The Gladiators!”
Wonder what, the horse has to say?
I apologize, for the structure of the previous posting.
The day you’re right, Marvin, will be a sad day for the rest of us, you God-Damned piece of ass-wipe shit.
Did you ever find out which one was your mother?
Friedmann:
What is your purpose , on this blog?
You got nothing else to do, except sling your usual BS!
I asked people who wanted a daily open thread to vote. Not enough of you responded.
For May 19 blogs, Open Thread so far has 83 posts, 2nd place Brenda Landwerh has 573rd place Bush’ compassionate approach to immigration 37.
The previous May 12 Open Thread generated 140 postings, to 2nd place Democrats playing into GOP hands 71, to 3rd place Lott Thinks Civil Liberties not important 70.
For the entire May 12-18 week, the rankings were1st “It’s Not Religion” (Da Vinci Code) 203
2nd Open Thread 140
3rd Big Brother isn’t so scary after all 78
Maybe daily is too often. How about twice a week? The stats reveal that it is very popular, as measured by postings. Unfortunately we don’t have public stats on numbers of non-posting reader hits,which would be interesting to analyze.
heartlander,
Sorry, my bad for not speaking up earlier. I say daily open threads would be a good thing.
I was just wondering today how many hits the Weblog gets per week.
An interesting bit of research heart.
With no research, I’ve an idea the life of the average thread is 2 to 3 days at best. A really contentious one might go a week. VERY rarely they go more.
An open a day would clutter up the recent threads with “old” opens, unless the WE wanted to remove them before posting a new one. A bi-weekly open might be better.
Does anyone know the length of life of a thread before it is archived?
CR, bi-weekly actually means once every two weeks. Semi-weekly is twice a week. I don’t mean to be a niggling sematacist (okay, it’s true, I’m a pedant so skewer me), I thank you for your support of an idea. I enjoy what you say, and I want to read it more often.
I agree with you that daily might be too often. What I am really trying to say is that you, and a lot of other WE bloggers get information from outside-world sources that merits an open-thread forum that more Wichitans can easily access. Will the Eagle editors get some great ideas by reading these? I think they will.
You know from reading my posts that I say some things you find reasonable, and I say other things you disagree with. I am trying to present IDEAS. My ideas change over time. I’m a “lifelong learner”.
ltI’ve said some things about education. Why? Because in a time of monumental change, in which major experiments are being conducted, for example experiments that are altering our climate, education of young people must be experimental. For example, training Wichita children to conform to an Industrial Age ideology is going to harm them. If it would help them. I would support it. I just don’t think it will in the 21st century.
Heartlander and WE Editors, count me as a yes vote for more open threads.
“I was just wondering today how many hits the Weblog gets per week.”
A while back, the WE editors said we’re getting about 102,000 hits per month. Do the math.
by John Bayldon
Whenever I am feeling sadBecause an argument is lostI simply emulate my DadAnd scream his hate word, ‘Holocaust’.
The patient seeker after truthSifts documents his whole life longWho dares to read his well-turned proofWhen ‘Holocaust’ I call upon?
The journalist at times may roar,Lion-hearted, to defend free speechBut when I call out ‘Holocaust’,He darts for cover with a screech.
The Churches, which, from Luther’s time,Would guide to Christ their Gentile flockAre now become a Judas shrine,A holy, Holocausting shop.
Each day through books, and plays, and sketches,The Holocaust that’s battered inTo brains of trauma-pated wretchesFills my coffers up to the brim.
History is the way I write itThis is the law from time long pastThe Goyim’s love of truth I smite itWith Bible myths and Holocaust.
2006©JMB
JR, did you ever post that story about your father on the blog before, or am I having a moment of huge deja vu? BTW, I like the story.
RD…going quietly insane today.
comrade “thinker”,
So six million Jews WEREN’T murdered by National Socialism in Germany?
heart Ah yes semi weekly is what I meant. Thank you.
RD?
You mean my story upthread about what my dad would have thought of Ruth v. Bonds? I don’t think I ever posted that before. I’m glad you enjoyed it. I think he would have liked it said.
I concur also with james upthread about the horse Barbaro. Sad thing that.
heartlanderYour idea of more opens is well researched and probably a good one.
Actually you got me thinking. I have alot of ideas as relates the blog. I bet a lot of people do.
But I wonder if any of those ideas would ever get heard, or rather ackowledged.
Hey editors? How about weighing in once and awhile?
You know, like when an idea like heart suggested (for more open threads) comes up and has support. Tell us what YOU think.
I ususally like to wait for further commentary before posting a thread again.
Maybe this speaks to heartlander’s call for a more current “open”. Without a hot topic the open goes mostly quiet.
Along the line of things we might ask for from the editors, I’ve often wondered why they don’t acknowledge a particularly good post. They do give us these threads to post on. They give us the topics. Would it be too much for them to occasionally credit a poster for truly eloquent words?
Maybe I can get them started. Below is a post that at least I thought “rose above”. I say that because at least I see it as a post that no one could dispute or discredit.
Anybody who carries a gun needs to make sure they’re ready to take the responsibility.A question:How many of the posters here have ever seen anybody get shot? It’s not like on TV, I assure you.How many of the posters here have actually shot anyone? The decision to use deadly force is made in a split second. It’s not a decision you get to consider and think through. And once you make that decision, you have to live with it. If you kill somebody, you can’t take it back, you can’t turn it around. You have to live with it. And if you’re any kind of a human being, if you have any faith, it’ll eat at you for the rest of your life. If you have any heart at all, there is no way to describe what goes through your mind, your soul when you see the lights go out in another human being’s eyes.Carrying a weapon is a grave responsibility and before you make that decision, you need to consider who you really are and what the consequinces of your actions will be.”
I delete the authors name out of respect for privacy. I don’t know how that poster will feel about my honoring the post.
It is one of the finest I have ever read.
I know some think I assume much on this forum. But if the editors will not acknowledge us then we should acknowledge one another. I don’t think anyone would quarrel that the above is truly well written. And if the editors won’t say it I will.
We’ve learned a lot about global warming. It may not be BAD for Kansas. This spring, cardinals, blue jays, robins, mourning doves, grackles, wrens, titmice and wrens have been waking me up with a cacophony of calls starting about a half hour before sunrise. This winter, Canada geese flew over my neighborhood every evening. I saw a great blue herron this morning, and a prarie falcon yesterday. I’ve seen a group of turkeys a couple times this year. If this is what global warming is bringing to Wichita, I’ll support it.
JR
If Israel did not exist who would miss them? The Palestinians being murdered by hovering helicopters firing missiels into the crowed streets of Gaza refugee camps? The US Treasury? The US citizen paying 3 dollars for gasoline? The American families losing their sons and daughters to Israel’s war in Iraq? The 900,000 slaves traded every year being made to work in Israeli brothels? The children being raped and murdered as entertainment? The blood diamonds being sold as Canadians diamonds to Americans? The Americans who lost their jobs when 3 dollar Jew-gas cost them their jobs at General Motors and Ford? The world’s largest distributor of drugs out of business? Americans living under the constant threat of nuclear retaliation from despicable acts by Israeli psychopaths? A 100,000 dead Iraqis? The loss of Marvin? And the rest of the Zionist assholes in our midst? { especially the ones so proud of ignoring these issues and blaming me for bring them up }
Sounds like Hamas is on a roll, not wanting to recognize these degenerate Israelis, giving them credibility.
Now will you answer my questions?
JR:I recall commenting that the post you copied was one of the best I have read on this blog. If I am recalling correctly, I think I told the author in an email.
I am not so sure that we need feedback from the editors. My experience with that type of thing – like on the Washington Post discussion boards is that all you get from those folks is some pretty watered down, “this side/that side said”, “and on the other hand”, etc. Most reporters and to a lesser degree editorial writers seem to fear being labeled a shill or hack for any side.
Bottom line: I am not sure having editors say more here would add much to the discussion. Not that they aren’t nice people and all – I think they would be more limited in what they could say than you imagine.
As our friend flike says:my $0.02
I think daily open threads would be too much but I would encourage a semi-weekly thread. Waiting until Friday – sometimes I forget stuff that I thought was important but irrelevant to other threads.
“Would it be too much for them to occasionally credit a poster for truly eloquent words?”
Not unless they agree with the new values boy. We have to know what his VALUES are before anything can be acknowledged.
“Most reporters and to a lesser degree editorial writers seem to fear being labeled a shill or hack for any side.”
Heheh. Given the shilling that goes on here for conservative bloggers, and the lack of balance of columnists on the editorial page, and now a damned VALUES guru…
….I am hard pressed to think the work “shill” means any more to the WE than “fair and balanced” means to fux news.
DD you are probably correct that we don’t really want nor should we expect the editors to comment here as to our posts. As you say it would tend to make them seem less objective. And as KFG posts they have a big enough problem in that department already!
I don’t think it would hurt them or us to advise or comment as to ideas like heartlanders, or acknowledge an invite to a meet up.
What I was meaning was that they might publish particularly good posts in the editorial page of the paper. They used to do something like this. Now the only thing they publish in “excerpts from our web log” is their own thread headers.But maybe they are a bit nervous that some of our posters (no not me!) might surpass them in writing ability? I can think of a few that do.
KFG:”….I am hard pressed to think the work “shill” means any more to the WE than “fair and balanced” means to fux news.”
JR:”What I was meaning was that they might publish particularly good posts in the editorial page of the paper.”
Unfortunately, KFG – you may be right. JR – I think that would be a good idea and I would be hard pressed to see how that could be a problem for the WE editorial staff. I remember when they edited the posts on one of the treatment of the mentally ill threads. It was quite good, I thought. Damoon got the most ink, as she well deserved with her inside view.
JR, I am shocked, SHOCKED I say that you think ANY writing could top that of the esteemed values police.
DD, as one who believes the first amendment guards all amendments, I support a free and unbiased media. Hell, I think our very democracy DEPENDS on it.
I am not “blaming the media” for the problems in kansas. Willful ignorance, an inablility to think for themselves, and mindless religious ferver sealed the deal on that long ago.
I am indeed though, blaming your local media for playing to the base, for shameless pandering, and general sucking up to wingnuttia. Heaven forbid the media there would provide an equal airing of all sides of a question.
They would really piss off terry joe and fred if they did anything like that. SO much better to just abdicate their responsibility and wring their hands about the very people they pander to. Easier to shut up and let the wingnuts run away with the state.
HI folks, blind man checking in. Not kidding–glasses are AWOL and I’m 20/400.,. .where the hell am I??
Rage, don’t breath. You’re in a Zionist gaschamber.
Ed,
I for one do not find it amusing that you make light of the HOLOCAUST and gas chambers. You are an anti-Semitic pig!
Shalom.
Rage, you need to find a blurry font.
Make it larger or smaller until it comes into focus.
GOOD LUCK
Marvin:
Rule #1) NEVER ARGUE WITH A PIG.
You’re just wasting your time in hopes of annoying a dumb animal.
A liberal
I wish I was a liberalIn all sincerityMy worries would be overThe easy life for me!
I’d love to be a liberalAnd simply go alongChurning out the party lineNever in the wrong
Oh joy, to be a liberalSo publicly admiredNot fearing that your politicsCould ever get you fired
Please make me a liberalI’d love approving nodsFor welcoming with open armsAll races, creeds and gods
I pray to become liberalBefore the day I dieBut don’t think it will happenDamn! I cannot tell a lie
The “holocaust” is a fraud, a sham, a lie, a myth, a hoax and a fable.
“The holocaust religion serves the purpose of controlling people. It buys Israel substantial immunity from criticism. It allows special treatment of Jews in most Western countries. It allows Jews to have disproportionate control of the media and the economy in Western countries, while all the while portraying themselves as a persecuted minority. Discussion of the holocaust would undermine the privileged and powerful position Zionists hold in most Western countries. Therefore, anyone discussing or questioning aspects of the holocaust story must be silenced.”Paul Fromm
KFG,I have not read anything from the new “values” editor other than the initial piece and that was not impressive in a positive way. I am wondering why this fellow is being added at this time. Does it have to do with the paper’s ownership change? And if so, what does that mean about the other parts of the paper.
The TV news here in Wichita doesn’t have much in the way of reporting staff if you ask me. I believe they (TV folk) read the Eagle, try to figure out which stories will be flashy and easily summarized so that mouth breathing/droolers will be able to easily grasp the point. (Maybe exaggerating, but I don’t think by much).
So, the Eagle’s local news reporting is important to this city on many levels and I sure hope the new owners don’t mess that up. Is this values boy a sign of things to come? — I hope not.
comrade ‘thinker,’
Eeeuuh, what foul wind blew the stench of you in here? The same one, paradoxically enough, that brought us Marvin Zeigler, who STILL won’t answer my questions?
Those six million Jews–just a big accounting error, right? They all really emigrated to America, didn’t they? No, wait, I got it! They actually KILLED THEMSELVES in order to raise Western sympathies to the level necessary to engineer a state of Israel! Of course! They’re so crafty, those Jews! Diabolical, even!
I’m happy to debate this topic, on this blog or in person, because Holocaust denial is, frankly, the most intellectually bankrupt, dishonest, and cowardly sham going. But first you have to offer some actual substantiation for your position, rather than the merely presenting the little poopies you’ve made, of which you are so proud.
As for your posting from Fromm, it offers NO evidence that contradicts the historical consensus about the Holocaust. None. All it does is decry Jewish influence in the contemporary world. Don’t be a coward and a stooge, comrade ‘thinker.’ Give us some evidence. We’re all grownups here. We can take it.
But be warned that I, for one, play rough, and will absolutely tear apart bad arguments or phony evidence. Are you man enough, comrade ‘thinker’?
Dang CF! Do I need to hold your coat while you tear comrade (loss of capitalization intentional) a new one?p.s.-You’re being rather eloquent today!!!
Julie,
Aw, shucks. All in day’s work, ma’am.
Dear condum thunker,If I look up your name in google, will I get a picture of a moron? No holocaust? Take your meds, dude, and please OD: The normal everyday human being can do without idiot thinking. Heaven knows we got enough of that out of the KBOE.
In addition to the Jews, let’s not forget the Roms (Gypsies), Gays, and others who were slaughtered by the Nazi regime.
The Jewish state will be wiped out in a war with the Muslim Federation in the year 2010.
John Titor
Damn Rage you need to find your glasses. It is about time for some serious whack-a-trollaround here.
In the year 2008, JR will marry a young mail order bride from Ukraine. Sadly, the marriage will end in divorce as the young woman will insist on being a partisan Republican!
John Titor
Folks? Meet John Titor.
A quick search on his name reveals John is apparently a time traveller who shares news of the future.
This may be true as he personally addressed ME while I was off reading about HIM.
Apparently my future is interesting enough in other ways for him to have explored it? Do I get a head injury BETWEEN now and 2008 John? That’s the only way I’d consider getting married again!
This may be off-thread but I am sticking it in here because I will be away from you for a few months and my motorhome doesn’t have a blogging attachment.On a previous thread, our friend Walker made me pause when he through that DNA thing to disprove my “Laws of Nature” post and Julie agreed with him.I finally got an answer from him that I could understand, I don’t agree but I understand what he is getting at.His explanation is, as I understand him, the DNA for a Caterpillar is the same as that of a Butterfly and a tadpole is the same as a frog, so on and so on also the DNA for a human fetus is the same as a human. In other words he is saying a caterpillar is not a caterpillar it is a butterfly, a tadpole is not a tadpole it is a frog and a human fetus is not a fetus it is a human. Well, that’s bull shit (saaaay doessssn’t that have the same DNA as the bull?).Question – - if a human lost an arm, leg or another important appendage, them and the human having the same DNA, are they both human, can they both vote?The following post is from a previous thread –
The laws of natureIf our legislators had any guts at all they would define “when it is human?” and settle this never ending squabble.As many of you already know, due to nature’s metamorphosis, a caterpillar becomes a butterfly, a cut worm becomes a moth, a tadpole becomes a frog, a grub worm becomes a June bug and a sperm from a human male has a chance of becoming a human.A caterpillar is not a butterfly, a cut worm is not a moth, a tadpole is not a frog, a grub worm is not a June bug and a sperm from a human is not a human. In fact, after conception, it is nothing more then a loveable parasite in a human female’s body, sucking life from this host body. It will continue to suck life from this host body until it either dies in the womb or the umbilical cord is cut. Until that time (the cord is cut), based on the law of nature, it cannot be called human.
Guy from up north
This is an open thread and so nothing is “off topic ” here.
I for one LIKE your “caterpillar is not a butterfly” take on the right to choose. Yes it is damned inflammatory. But the “pro life” crowd can be just as inflammatory with their extremists who shoot doctors who perform abortions or blow up abortion clinics.
Probably the truth is somewhere in the middle. But your extremism balances theirs and helps us find that place.
You drive safe guy and have a good vacation.
JR,
Do you even have any idea of how many abortion clinics have been bombed and how many doctors murdered?
Seriously, lets hear a number. I know it. Do you?
How about this for a comparison guy?
Do you think that Sea Turtle nests full of eggs should be protected like they are by the Endangered Species Act?
What is the point of putting up fences and blocking off sections of the beach to protect nothing more than a clump of unhatched cells that are not really Sea Turtles yet?
I can guaruntee you that if I went to court and tried to tell the judge and all those PETA freaks that I didn’t really kill anything or harm anything more than an egg which is not really alive…
Why is it that those are considered worth of protection yet the unborn human is not?
Interesting don’t you think?
For more than three days now I have had no access to the “Its not theology” thread.
Now I am on webtv and that may explain it.
I question the editors if this truly is an open forum. Or, is it available only to SOME.
The 1st amendment created Fred Phelps, but it also destroyed him. That why the Founding Fathers insisted freedom of speech be absolutely protected { assuming in would find its way into debate and print }.
So, if the Holocaust were true, then freedom of speech and debate would reinforce whatever really happened, not destroy it.
The problem is that Zionist Jews lie about most everything, so they must try to shut down debate about whatever claims they make in order to preserve them.
The Zionists control the US MSM but not the internet, so they’re lies have an unprotected flank. Hence a “Marvin” shows up and starts attacking the persons who disagrees rather than debate any Zionist claims.
IE: Palestinians are not “terrorists” but rather victims. The Zionist-Jews put-out the line that they, the Zionists, are the victims, when clearly they’re not. And like a house of cards the whole Zionist 60 year lie starts falling apart.
A lot of people or every stripe died during WW-ll and we’ll probably never know how many. The saturation round the clock bombing killed a lot of Germans who had nothing to do with AH, but they’re never mentioned, as are other victims.
The greatest casualty that the Zionist-Jews are resposible for has been the 1st amendment.
Check out this website and see what you think
http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/flash.htm#Main
Makes you wonderr what the governement is trying to cover up..
Check out this website and see what you think
http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/flash.htm#Main
Makes you wonderr what the governement is trying to cover up..
MM,Things that make you go hmmmmm…
1. WHAT PROOF EXISTS THAT THE NAZIS PRACTICED GENOCIDE OR DELIBERATELY KILLED SIX MILLION JEWS?
None. The only evidence is the contradictory testimony of individual “survivors”, and no “survivor” claims actually to have witnessed any gassing. There is no hard evidence whatsoever. No mounds of ashes, no piles of clothes, no crematoria capable of doing the job, no human soap, no lampshades made out of human skin, no records, no demographic statistics.On the other hand there exists extensive evidence of a forensic, demographic, analytical, documentary, anecdotal, and comparative nature which clearly proves the impossibility of such a figure as six million Jewish dead, an exaggeration of possibly 1000%.
2. HOW DID GERMAN CONCENTRATION CAMPS DIFFER FROM AMERICAN RELOCATION CAMPS WHICH INTERNED JAPANESE AND GERMAN-AMERICANS DURING WORLD WAR TWO?Except for the name, the only difference was that the Germans interned persons who were a real or suspected threat to the German war effort, whereas the Americans interned persons on the basis of their race or national origin alone.3. WHY DID THE GERMAN AUTHORITIES INTERN JEWS IN THE CONCENTRATION CAMPS?Because the Germans considered the Jews a direct threat to their national sovereignty and survival, correctly as it turned out. Jews were overwhelmingly represented in Germany in Communist subversion during the Weimar period. On a per capita basis, Jews were highly overrepresented in government, commercial, and media positions. However, ALL suspected security risks, not just Jews, were in danger of internment once the war broke out.On March 24th, 1933, international Jewry declared war on Germany and ordered a world-wide boycott of German goods simply because the German government had removed Jews from influential positions and transferred power back to the German people. The boycott order and the Jewish war against Germany were reported in the world print and broadcast media of the time. False stories of German “death camps” were in fact circulated even before the outbreak of World War Two. Therefore the German view of the Jewish people as enemy aliens would seem to have been fully justified.
4. DID SIMON WIESENTHAL ONCE ADMIT THAT THERE WERE NEVER ANY DEATH CAMPS ON GERMAN SOIL?Yes. In *Books and Bookmen*, April 1975 issue. He claims the gassing of all the Jews took place in Poland.5. DACHAU IS IN GERMANY. IF EVEN SIMON WIESENTHAL NOW ADMITS IT WAS NOT A DEATH CAMP, WHY DO THOUSANDS OF AMERICAN VETERANS SAY IT WAS?Because after the Allies captured Dachau (and incidentally murdered dozens of the former staff without trial), thousands of GIs were led through the camp and shown buildings alleged to be gas chambers. This story was later quietly expunged from official Holocaust lore because it became too difficult to maintain in the face of known fact and because Dachau was in the Allied occupation zone where access to the camp was too easy and unrestricted.En passant, the brief lifespan of the “Dachau death camp” version gave rise to the first critical examination and questioning of the Holocaust myth by historians and by some Allied veterans who noticed discrepancies in what they had seen and what they read in official accounts. It would be many years, though, before this early Holocaust Revisionism gained momentum.
6. AUSCHWITZ IS IN POLAND, NOT GERMANY. IS THERE ANY PROOF THAT GAS CHAMBERS FOR THE PURPOSE OF KILLING PEOPLE EXISTED AT AUSCHWITZ?No. The “gas chamber” exhibited to tourists at Auschwitz could not possibly have been used to carry out executions; it is far too small and it is not even airtight. In the 1980s, American expert Fred Leuchter, who builds gas chambers for American penal systems, took scrapings from the walls of the Auschwitz “gas chamber” for chemical analysis. He found no cyanide residue at all. The Auschwitz exhibit is a fake, pure and simple, a flimsy tourist trap.7. IF AUSCHWITZ WASN’T A DEATH CAMP, WHAT WAS ITS TRUE PURPOSE?It was a large-scale manufacturing complex. Synthetic rubber (Buna) was made there, and its inmates were used as a workforce, in the same way in which inmate labor is increasingly being used in correctional systems throughout the United States today.8. WHAT ABOUT THE INFAMOUS ZYKLON-B GAS?Zyklon-B is a commercially manufactured compound of hydrocyanic gas. It has a number of widespread industrial uses, including the fumigation of lice-infested clothing, the purpose for which it was applied at Auschwitz. Zyklon-B is still manufactured worldwide and is commonly used and available today.9. IF AUSCHWITZ WAS NOT AN EXTERMINATION CAMP, WHY DID FORMER COMMANDANT RUDOLF HOESS CONFESS THAT IT WAS?Hoess was captured by the Russians and Polish Communists and brutally tortured. He signed his confession, the SOLE SOURCE for the figure of six million dead Jews, in English, a language he could not read. Some pages of the original document are literally stained with Hoess’ blood. Hoess was then conveniently executed so he could not be cross examined.10. HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE FULLY TO VENTILATE AN AREA FUMIGATED WITH ZYKLON-B?About twenty hours. The whole procedure is extremely involved and technical. Gas masks have to be used and well trained technicians only are employed.
Please, counter these points to my satisfaction, “CF”!
CT
Comrade “Thinker”,
If you had submitted your ‘objections’ as an essay, I’d have given you an ‘F’ for plagiarizing. Are NONE of you Holocaust deniers capable of original thought? Are you really that obedient and toadyish?
http://compuserb.com/germandefenseleague/holopov.htm
Of the points you downloaded from the above site, only #s 1, 6, and 7 make factual claims worth debating. I will do a little digging, and get back to you.
Oh, and by the way: your ’satisfaction’ doesn’t mean shit to me. Winners on the WeBlog are decided by popular acclimation.
I personally know a holocaust survivor that lost her entire family, my father in law help to liberate the concentration camps. From the pictures that he took himself, I can assure you the holocaust was a reality. Those of you who deny it are as stupid and ignorant as the guys who claimed that the moon landing was a hoax. What a bunch of morons!
damoon,
I have no interest in third hand tales of “holocau$t survivors”. Refute the ponts that I made or BEGONE!
CT
LOL CT! Got a magic wand you can wave and say *poof* to get rid of those who don’t agree with you? Sorry to tell you this, but it doesn’t work in here on intelligent people. Only the morons you hang around with.
Who cloned Ian?
JRThank you, You have a great summer. Keep everything under control.Signing off now.
Boy, class act, that Comrade “Thinker.”
Two can play the ‘download stock arguments and objections’ game. Here’s the point by point takedown of your bullshit arguments, which I’m getting here:
http://www.nizkor.org/qar-complete.cgi
Here’s #1.
“1. What proof exists that the Nazis practiced genocide or deliberately killed six million Jews?
The IHR says (original, Samisdat, and revised versions combined):
None. The only evidence is the postwar testimony of individual “survivors.” This testimony is contradictory, and no “survivor” claims to have actually witnessed any gassing. There are no contemporaneous documents and no hard evidence whatsoever: no mounds of ashes, no crematoria capable of disposing of millions of corpses, no piles of clothes, no human soap, no lamp shades made of human skin, no records, no credible demographic statistics.
Nizkor replies:
Lie piled upon lie, with not a shred of proof.
This is as good a place as any to present some detailed evidence which is consistently ignored, as a sort of primer on Holocaust denial. It will make this reply much longer than the other sixty-five, but perhaps the reader will understand the necessity for this.
Let’s look at their claims one at a time:
Supposedly the only evidence, “the postwar testimony of individual survivors.”First of all, consider the implicit conspiracy theory. Notice how the testimony of every single inmate of every Nazi camp is automatically dismissed as unconvincing. This total dismissal of inmates’ testimony, along with the equally-total dismissal of the Nazis’ own testimony (!), is the largest unspoken assumption of Holocaust-denial.
This assumption, which is not often spelled out, is that the attempted Jewish genocide never took place, but rather that a secret conspiracy of Jews, starting around 1941, planted and forged myriad documents to prove that it did; then, after the war, they rounded up all the camp survivors and told them what to say.
The conspirators also supposedly managed to torture hundreds of key Nazis into confessing to crimes which they never committed, or into framing their fellow Nazis for those crimes, and to plant hundreds of documents in Nazi files which were never discovered until after the war, and only then, in many cases, by sheer luck. Goebbels’ diary, for example, was barely rescued from being sold as 7,000 pages of scrap paper, but buried in the scattered manuscript were several telling entries (as translated in Lochner, The Goebbels Diaries, 1948, pp. 86, 147-148):
February 14, 1942: The Führer once again expressed his determination to clean up the Jews in Europe pitilessly. There must be no squeamish sentimentalism about it. The Jews have deserved the catastrophe that has now overtaken them. Their destruction will go hand in hand with the destruction of our enemies. We must hasten this process with cold ruthlessness.
March 27, 1942: The procedure is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely. Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said that about 60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only 40 per cent can be used for forced labor.
Michael Shermer has pointed out that the Nazis’ own estimate of the number of European Jews was eleven million, and sixty percent of eleven million is 6.6 million. This is fairly close to the actual figure. (Actually, forty percent was a serious overestimate of the survival rate of Jews who were captured, but there were many Jews who escaped.)
In any case, most of the diary is quite mundane, and interesting only to historians. Did the supposed Jewish conspiracy forge seven thousand pages to insert just a few lines? How did they manage to know Goebbels’ affairs intimately enough to avoid contradictions, e.g. putting him or his associates in the wrong city at the wrong date?
As even the revisionist David Cole has admitted, revisionists have yet to provide a satisfactory explanation of this document.
Regarding postwar testimony from Nazis, were they all tortured into confessing to heinous crimes which they supposedly did not commit? This might be believable if only a few Nazis were captured after the war, or maybe if some had courageously stood up in court and shouted to the world about the supposed attempt to silence them. But hundreds testified regarding the Holocaust, in trials dating from late 1945 until the 1960s. (For example, see Böck, Hofmann, Hössler, Klein, Münch, and Stark.)
Many of these Nazis testified as witnesses and were not accused of crimes. What was the basis for their supposed coercion?
Many of these trials were in German courts. Did the Germans torture their own countrymen? Well, Holocaust-deniers sometimes claim that the Jews have secretly infiltrated the German government and control everything about it. They prefer not to talk too much about this theory, however, because it is clearly on the lunatic fringe.
The main point is that not one of these supposed torture victims — in fifty years, not one — has come forth to support the claim that testimony was coerced.
On the contrary, confirmation and reconfirmation of their testimony has continued across the years. What coercion could have convinced Judge Konrad Morgen to testify to the crimes he witnessed at the International Nuremberg Trial in 1946, where he was not accused of any crime? And to later testify at the Auschwitz trial at Frankfurt, Germany, in 1963-65? What coercion was applied to SS Doctor Johann Kremer to make him testify in his own defense in 1947, and then, after having been convicted in both Poland and Germany, emerge after his release to testify again as a witness at the Frankfurt trial? What coercion was applied to Böck, Gerhard Hess, Hölblinger, Storch, and Wiebeck, all former SS men, all witnesses at Frankfurt, none accused of any crime there?
Holocaust-deniers point to small discrepancies in testimonies to try to discredit them. The assumption, unstated, is that the reader will accept minor discrepancies as evidence of a vast, over-reaching Jewish conspiracy. This is clearly ludicrous.
In fact, the discrepancies and minor errors in detail argue against, not for, the conspiracy theory. Why would the conspirators have given different information to different Nazis? In fact, if all the testimonies, from the Nazis’ to the inmates’, sounded too similar, it is certain that the Holocaust-deniers would cite that as evidence of a conspiracy.
What supposed coercion could reach across four decades, to force former SS-Untersturmführer Dr. Hans Münch to give an interview, against the will of his family, on Swedish television? In the 1981 interview, he talked about Auschwitz:
Interviewer: Isn’t the ideology of extermination contrary to a doctor’s ethical values?
Münch: Yes, absolutely. There is no discussion. But I lived in that environment, and I tried in every possible way to avoid accepting it, but I had to live with it. What else could I have done? And I wasn’t confronted with it directly until the order came that I and my superior and another one had to take part in the exterminations since the camp’s doctors were overloaded and couldn’t cope with it.
Interviewer: I must ask something. Doubters claim that “special treatment” could mean anything. It didn’t have to be extermination.
Münch: “Special treatment” in the terminology of the concentration camp means physical extermination. If it was a question of more than a few people, where nothing else than gassing them was worthwhile, they were gassed.
Interviewer: “Special treatment” was gassing?
Münch: Yes, absolutely.
And what supposed coercion could reach across four decades, to force former SS-Unterscharführer Franz Suchomel into giving an interview for the film Shoah? Speaking under (false) promises of anonymity, he told of the crimes committed at the Treblinka death camp (from the book Shoah, Claude Lanzmann, 1985, p. 54):
Interviewer: You are a very important eyewitness, and you can explain what Treblinka was.
Suchomel: But don’t use my name.
Interviewer: No, I promised. All right, you’ve arrived at Treblinka.
Suchomel: So Stadie, the sarge, showed us the camps from end to end. Just as we went by, they were opening the gas-chamber doors, and people fell out like potatoes. Naturally, that horrified and appalled us. We went back and sat down on our suitcases and cried like old women.
Each day one hundred Jews were chosen to drag the corpses to the mass graves. In the evening the Ukrainians drove those Jews into the gas chambers or shot them. Every day!
Ask the deniers why they shrug off the testimony of Franz Suchomel. Greg Raven will tell you that “it is not evidence…bring me some evidence, please.” Others will tell you that Suchomel and Münch were crazy, or hallucinating, or fantasizing.
But the fantasy is obviously in the minds of those who choose to ignore the mass of evidence and believe instead in a hypothetical conspiracy, supported by nothing but their imaginations.
That total lack of evidence is why the “conspiracy assumption” almost always remains an unspoken assumption. To our knowledge, there has not been one single solitary “revisionist” paper, article, speech, pamphlet, book, audiotape, videotape, or newsletter which provides any details about this supposed Jewish/Zionist conspiracy which did all the dirty work. Not one.
At best, the denial literature makes veiled references to the World Jewish Congress perpetuating a “hoax” (in Butz, 1976) — no details are provided. Yet the entire case of Holocaust-denial rests on this supposed conspiracy.
As for the testimony of the survivors, which the “revisionists” claim is the only evidence, there are indeed numerous testimonies to gassings and other forms of atrocities, from Jewish inmates who survived the camps, and also from other inmates like POWs. Many of the prisoners that testified about the gassing are not Jewish, of course. Look for instance at the testimony of Polish officer Zenon Rozansky about the first homicidal gassing in Auschwitz, in which 850 Russian POWs were gassed to death, in Reitlinger, The Final Solution, p. 154:
Those who were propped against the door leant with a curious stiffness and then fell right at our feet, striking their faces hard against the concrete floor. Corpses! Corpses standing bolt upright and filling the entire corridor of the bunker, till they were packed so tight that it was impossible for more to fall.
Which of the “revisionists” will deny this? Which of them was there? Which of them has the authority to tell Rozansky what he did or did not see?
The statement that “no ’survivor’ claims to have actually witnessed any gassing” is clearly false; this was changed to “few survivors” in later versions, which is close to the truth.
But we do not need to rely solely on testimony, from the survivors, Nazis, or otherwise. Many wartime documents, not postwar descriptions, specifically regarding gassings and other atrocities, were seized by the U.S. armed forces. Most are in the National Archives in Washington, D.C.; some are in Germany.
Regarding the gassing vans, precursors to the gas chambers, we find, for example, a top secret document from SS Untersturmführer Becker to SS Obersturmbannführer Rauff (from Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression, 1946, Vol. I, pp. 999-1001):
If it has rained for instance for only one half hour, the van cannot be used because it simply skids away. It can only be used in absolutely dry weather. It is only a question now whether the van can only be used standing at the place of execution. First the van has to be brought to that place, which is possible only in good weather. …
The application of gas usually is not undertaken correctly. In order to come to an end as fast as possible, the driver presses the accelerator to the fullest extent. By doing that the persons to be executed suffer death from suffocation and not death by dozing off as was planned. My directions now have proved that by correct adjustment of the levers death comes faster and the prisoners fall asleep peacefully.
And Just wrote of the gas vans to Rauff, on June 5, 1942, in a letter marked both “top secret” and “only copy”. This is a horrific masterpiece of Nazi double-talk, referring to killing as “processing” and the victims as “subjects” and “the load.” (See Kogon, Nazi Mass Murder, 1993, pp. 228-235.)
Since December 1941, for example, 97,000 were processed using three vans, without any faults occurring in the vehicles. …
The normal capacity of the vans is nine to ten per square meter. The capacity of the larger special Saurer vans is not so great. The problem is not one of overloading but of off-road maneuverability on all terrains, which is severely diminished in this van. It would appear that a reduction in the cargo area is necessary. This can be achieved by shortening the compartment by about one meter. The problem cannot be solved by merely reducing the number of subject treated, as has been done so far. For in this case a longer running time is required, as the empty space also needs to be filled with CO [the poison exhaust gas]. …
Greater protection is needed for the lighting system. The grille should cover the lamps high enough up to make it impossible to break the bulbs. It seems that these lamps are hardly ever turned on, so the users have suggested that they could be done away with. Experience shows, however, that when the back door is closed and it gets dark inside, the load pushes hard against the door. The reason for this is that when it becomes dark inside, the load rushes toward what little light remains. This hampers the locking of the door. It has also been noticed that the noise provoked by the locking of the door is linked to the fear aroused by the darkness.
Slip-ups occurred in written correspondence regarding the gas chambers themselves, some of which, fortunately, escaped destruction and were found after the war. A memo written to SS man Karl Bischoff on November 27, 1942 describes the gas chamber in Krema II not with the usual mundane name of “Leichenkeller,” but rather as the “Sonderkeller” “special cellar.”
And two months later, on January 29, 1943, Bischoff wrote a memo to Kammler, referring to that same chamber as the “Vergasungskeller.” (See Gutman, Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp, 1994, pp. 223, 227.) “Vergasungskeller” means exactly what it sounds like: “gassing cellar,” an underground gas chamber.
Holocaust-deniers turn to Arthur Butz, who provides a specious explanation for the Vergasungskeller: “Vergasung,” he says, cannot refer to killing people with gas, but only to the process of converting a solid or liquid into gas. Therefore, he says the “Vergasungskeller,” must have been a special room where the fuel for the Auschwitz ovens was converted into gas — a “gasification cellar.”
There are three problems with this explanation. First, “Vergasung” certainly can refer to killing people with gas; Butz does not speak German and he should not try to lecture about the language. Second, there is no room that could possibly serve this function which Butz describes — years after writing his book, he admitted this, and helplessly suggested that there might be another building somewhere in the camp that might house a gasification cellar. Third, the type of oven used at Auschwitz did not require any gasification process! The ovens burned solid fuel. (See Gutman, op. cit., pp. 184-193.)
So what does the term “gassing cellar” refer to? Holocaust-deniers have yet to offer any believable explanation.
An inventory, again captured after the war, revealed fourteen showerheads and one gas-tight door listed for the gas chamber in Krema III. Holocaust-deniers claim that room was a morgue; they do not offer to explain what use a morgue has for showerheads and a gas-tight door. (See a photograph of the document, or Pressac, Auschwitz: Technique and Operation, 1989, pp. 231, 438.)
A memo from the Auschwitz construction office, dated March 31, 1943, says (Hilberg, Documents of Destruction, 1971, pp. 207-208):
We take this occasion to refer to another order of March 6, 1943, for the delivery of a gas door 100/192 for Leichenkeller 1 of Krema III, Bw 30a, which is to be built in the manner and according to the same measure as the cellar door of the opposite Krema II, with peep hole of double 8 millimeter glass encased in rubber. This order is to be viewed as especially urgent….
Why would morgues have urgently needed peepholes made out of a double layer of third-of-an-inch-thick glass?
The question of whether it can be proved that the cyanide gas was used in the Auschwitz gas chambers has intruiged the deniers. Their much-heralded Leuchter Report, for example, expends a great deal of effort on the question of whether traces of cyanide residue remain there today. But we do not need to look for chemical traces to confirm cyanide use (Gutman, op. cit., p. 229):
Letters and telegrams exchanged on February 11 and 12 [1943] between the Zentralbauleitung and Topf mention a wooden blower for Leichenkeller 1. This reference confirms the use of the morgue as a gas chamber: Bischoff and Prüfer thought that the extraction of air mixed with concentrated prussic acid [cyanide] (20 g per cu m) required a noncorroding ventilator.
Bischoff and Prüfer turned out to be wrong, and a metal fan ended up working acceptably well. But the fact that they thought it necessary demonstrates that cyanide was to be routinely used in the rooms which deniers call morgues. (Cyanide is useless for disinfecting morgues, as it does not kill bacteria.)
Other captured documents, even if they don’t refer directly to some part of the extermination process, refer to it by implication. A captured memo to SS-Brigadeführer Kammler reveals that the expected incineration capacity of the Auschwitz ovens was a combined total of 4,756 corpses per day (see a photograph of the document or Kogon, op. cit., p. 157).
Deniers often claim that this total could not be achieved in practice (see question 45). That’s not the point. These crematoria were carefully designed, in 1942, to have sufficient capacity to dispose of 140,000 corpses per month — in a camp that housed only 125,000. We can conclude that massive deaths were predicted, indeed planned-for, as early as mid-1942. A camp designed to incinerate its full capacity of inmates every four weeks is not merely a detention center.
Finally, apart from the abundant testimonies, confessions, and physical evidence of the extermination process, there is certainly no want of evidence of the Nazis’ intentions and plans.
Here are just a few examples. Hans Frank’s diary (from Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression, 1946, Vol. I, pp. 992, 994):
But what should be done with the Jews? Do you think they will be settled down in the ‘Ostland’ [eastern territories], in [resettlement] villages? This is what we were told in Berlin: Why all this bother? We can do nothing with them either in the ‘Ostland’ nor in the ‘Reichkommissariat.’ So liquidate them yourself.
Gentlemen, I must ask you to rid yourself of all feeling of pity. We must annihilate the Jews, wherever we find them and wherever it is possible, in order to maintain the structure of the Reich as a whole. …
We cannot shoot or poison these 3,500,000 Jews, but we shall nevertheless be able to take measures, which will lead, somehow, to their annihilation….
That we sentence 1,200,000 Jews to die of hunger should be noted only marginally.
Himmler’s speech at Posen on October 4, 1943 was captured on audiotape (Trial of the Major War Criminals, 1948, Vol. XXIX, p. 145, trans. by current author):
I refer now to the evacuation of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish people. This is one of those things that is easily said: “the Jewish people are being exterminated,” says every Party member, “quite true, it’s part of our plans, the elimination of the Jews, extermination, we’re doing it.”
The extermination effort was even mentioned in at least one official Nazi court verdict. In May 1943, a Munich court wrote in its decision against SS-Untersturmführer Max Taubner that:
The accused shall not be punished because of the actions against the Jews as such. The Jews have to be exterminated and none of the Jews that were killed is any great loss. Although the accused should have recognized that the extermination of the Jews was the duty of Kommandos which were set up especially for this purpose, he should be excused for considering himself to have the authority to take part in the extermination of Jewry himself.
And Hitler spoke quite clearly in public on no fewer than three occasions. On January 30, 1939, seven months before Germany invaded Poland, he spoke publicly to the Reichstag (transcribed from Skeptic magazine, Vol. 2, No. 4, p. 50):
Today I want to be a prophet once more: if international finance Jewry inside and outside of Europe should succeed once more in plunging nations into another world war, the consequence will not be the Bolshevation of the earth and thereby the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe.
By the way, this last phrase is, in German, “die Vernichtung der jüdischen Rasse in Europa,” which German-speakers will realize is quite unambiguous.
In September, 1942:
…if Jewry should plot another world war in order to exterminate the Aryan peoples in Europe, it would not be the Aryan people which would be exterminated but Jewry…
On November 8, 1942:
You will recall the session of the Reichstag during which I declared: if Jewry should imagine that it could bring about an international world war to exterminate the European races, the result will not be the extermination of the European races, but the extermination of Jewry in Europe. People always laughed about me as a prophet. Of those who laughed then, countless numbers no longer laugh today, and those who still laugh now will perhaps no longer laugh a short time from now.
There are many other examples of documents and testimonies that could be presented.
Keep in mind that the IHR’s answer to “what proof exists?” is “none.” It has certainly been demonstrated already that this pat answer is totally dishonest. And this is the main point we wish to communicate: that Holocaust-denial is dishonest.
We continue by analyzing the remaining, more-specific, claims about what evidence supposedly does not exist.
“No mounds of ashes” is an internal contradiction. In an article in the journal published by the same IHR that publishes these Q&A, the Journal’s editor reported that a Polish commission in 1946 found human ash at the Treblinka death camp to a depth of over twenty feet. This article is available on The IHR’s web site.(Apparently some survivors claimed that the corpses were always thoroughly cremated. Because uncremated human remains were mixed with the ash, the editor suggested that the testimonies were false. Amazingly, he had no comment on how a twenty-foot layer of human ashes came to be there in the first place. Perhaps he felt that to be unworthy of mention.)
There are also piles of ashes at Maidanek. At Auschwitz-Birkenau, ashes from cremated corpses were dumped into the rivers and swamps surrounding the camp, and used as fertilizer for nearby farmers’ fields.
“No crematoria” capable of disposing of millions of corpses? Absolutely false, the crematoria were more than capable of the job, according to both the Nazis’ own internal memos and the testimony of survivors. Holocaust-deniers deliberately confuse civilian, funeral-home crematoria with the huge industrial ovens of the death camps. This is discussed in much detail in the replies to questions 42 and 45.
“No piles of clothes”? Apparently, the IHR considers piles of clothes to be “hard evidence”! This is strange, because they do not deny the other sorts of piles found at Nazi camps: piles of eyeglasses, piles of shoes (at Auschwitz, Belzec, and Maidanek), piles of gold teeth, piles of burned corpses, piles of unburned corpses, piles of artificial limbs (see Swiebocka, Auschwitz: A History in Photographs, 1993, p. 210), piles of human hair (ibid, p. 211), piles of ransacked luggage (ibid, p. 213), piles of shaving-brushes (ibid, p. 215), piles of combs (ibid), piles of pots and pans (ibid), and yes, even the piles of clothes (ibid, p. 214) that the IHR claims do not exist.Perhaps the authors of the 66 Q&A realized that it was dangerous for them to admit that these piles were hard evidence, because then they would also be forced to admit a number of other things as “hard evidence.” Perhaps this is why they removed this phrase from the revised 66 Q&A.
If items were not generally found in mass quantities, it is only because the Nazis distributed them to the German population. A memo on this was captured, revealing that they even redistributed women’s underwear.
“No human soap”? This is true, but misleading. Though there is some evidence that soap was made from corpses on a very limited experimental scale, the rumored “mass production” was never done, and no soap made from human corpses is known to exist. However, there is sworn testimony, never refuted, from British POWs and a German army official, stating that soap experiments were performed, and the recipe for the soap was captured by the Allies. To state flatly that the Nazis did not make soap from human beings is incorrect.
“No lamp shades made of human skin?” False — lampshades and other human-skin “ornaments” were introduced as evidence in both trials of Ilse Koch, and were shown to a U.S. Senate investigation committee in the late 40s. We know they were made of human skin because they bore tattoos, and because a microscopic forensic analysis of the items was performed. (A detailed page on this is being prepared.)
“No records”? This is nonsense (which may explain why this claim was removed from the “revised” versions of the 66 Q&A). True, extermination by gassing was always referred to with code-words, and those victims who arrived at death camps only to be immediately gassed were not recorded in any books. But there are slip-ups in the code-word usage that reveal the true meanings, as already described. There are inventories and requisitions for the Krema which reveal items anomalous with ordinary use but perfect for mass homicidal gassing. There are deportation train records which, pieced together, speak clearly. And so on. Several examples have been given above.
“No credible demographic statistics”? This is the second internal contradiction — see question 2 and question 15. The Anglo-American committee who studied the issue estimated the number of Jewish victims at 5.7 million. This was based on population statistics. Here is the exact breakdown, country by country:Germany 195,000Austria 53,000Czechoslovakia 255,000Denmark 1,500France 140,000Belgium 57,000Luxemburg 3,000Norway 1,000Holland 120,000Italy 20,000Yugoslavia 64,000Greece 64,000Bulgaria 5,000Rumania 530,000Hungary 200,000Poland 3,271,000USSR 1,050,000Less dispersed refugees (308,000)Total number of Jews killed 5,721,500
(This estimate was arrived at using population statistics, and not by adding the number of casualties at each camp. These are also available — for instance, a separate file with the ruling of a German court regarding the number of victims in Treblinka is available. The SS kept rather accurate records, and many of the documents survived, reinforced by eyewitness accounts).
Some estimates are lower, some are higher, but this is the magnitude in question. In an article in CMU’s student newspaper, the head of CMU’s History Department, Peter Stearns, is quoted as saying that newly discovered documents — especially in the former USSR — indicate that the number of victims is higher than six million. Other historians claim not much over five million. The Encyclopedia of the Holocaust uses 5,596,000 as a minimum and 5,860,000 as a maximum (Gutman, 1990, p. 1799).
In summary:”Revisionists” often claim, correctly, that the burden of proof is on historians. The proof, of course, has been a matter of public record since late 1945, and is available in libraries around the world. The burden has been met, many, many times over. You’ve just seen a brief presentation of some of the highlights of that immense body of proof; much more is readily available.
To even argue that the Holocaust never happened is ludicrous. To claim straight-faced that none of this proof even exists is beyond ludicrous, and it is a clear example of “revisionist” dishonesty.”
Here’s #’s 6 and 7:
6. Auschwitz was in Poland, not Germany. Is there any proof that gas chambers for the purpose of killing human beings existed at or in Auschwitz?
The IHR says:
No. A reward of $50,000 was offered for such proof, the money being held in trust by a bank, but no one came up with any credible evidence. Auschwitz, captured by the Soviets, was extensively modified after the war and a mortuary was reconstructed to look like a large “gas chamber.” It is now a big tourist attraction for the Communist Polish government.
The IHR says (revised):
No. Auschwitz, captured by the Soviets, was modified after the war, and a room was reconstructed to look like a large “gas chamber.” After America’s leading expert on gas chamber construction and design, Fred Leuchter, examined this and other alleged Auschwitz gassing facilities, he stated that it was an “absurdity” to claim that they were, or could have been, used for executions.
Nizkor replies:
Regarding the $50,000 reward offer: it was paid, to the last cent (actually $90,000), to Mel Mermelstein, an Auschwitz survivor who took the IHR to court. Here is the statement made by the judge:
The Honorable Thomas T. Johnson, on October 9, 1981, took judicial notice as follows:
Under Evidence Code Section 452(h), this court does take judicial notice of the fact that Jews were gassed to death at the Auschwitz Concentration Camp in Poland during the summer of 1944
and
It just simply is a fact that falls within the definition of Evidence Code Section 452(h). It is not reasonably subject to dispute. And it is capable of immediate and accurate determination by resort to sources of reasonably indisputable accuracy. It is simply a fact.
The IHR complains that they were not given a chance to dispute this fact, but then the American court system is not meant to be a place for people to try to prove crackpot theories. No “credible evidence” was produced because there was no call for it — a courtroom is not the place to rehash the work of historians over the last half-century.
Besides, “credible evidence” means only what Holocaust-deniers want it to mean. Michael Shermer, in an open letter, has offered to take the IHR up on a similar offer, but only if they precisely define ahead of time what they will accept as evidence. He has received no reply. (In fact, to date, his letter has not even been printed.)
After this trial, both Mermelstein and the IHR sued each other for libel, but both decided not to go to court. The Holocaust deniers claim this is a “stunning victory” which “nullifies the result of the first trial.” Nonsense: the two were unrelated, and the second trial would have had nothing to do with the gas chambers of Auschwitz.
As with most legal proceedings, the details get quite complicated. Great detail, including copies of several official documents, is available in the FTP archives.
Regarding Fred Leuchter’s fraudulent “Report,” a separate FAQ is available.
——————————————————————————–
7. If Auschwitz wasn’t a “death camp,” what was its true purpose?
The IHR says (original):
It was a large-scale manufacturing complex. Synthetic rubber (Buna) was made there, and its inmates were used as a workforce. The Buna process was used in the U.S. during WWII.
The IHR says (revised):
It was an internment center and part of a large-scale manufacturing complex. Synthetic fuel was produced there, and its inmates were used as a workforce.
Nizkor replies:
True to some extent. Auschwitz was a huge complex; it had ordinary POW camps (in which British airmen were also held, and they testified of atrocities in the nearby extermination camp). Auschwitz II, or Birkenau, was the largest camp, and the gas chambers were there. Auschwitz III, or Monowitz, was the industrial manufacturing plant.
Many prisoners were indeed used for forced labor in Auschwitz. But the “unfit” — meaning the elderly, the children, and most of the women — were immediately sent to the gas chambers.
In its revised answer, the IHR states that “synthetic fuel” was produced there, not Buna. This is more accurate. By war’s end, not a single ounce of rubber had been produced at the Buna camp.
It’s a tactical error on their part to admit this, however, because in question number 40, they state that it was impossible to burn corpses because there wasn’t any fuel. Yet they admit that there was a fuel-synthesis plant just a few miles away. It did produce fuel, and in fact was an Allied bombing target for that reason. Another internal contradiction.”
And here’s a takedown of the Leuchter “report.”
http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/leuchter/
Bottom line, Comrade “Thinker”: you’re a shill and you’re full of shit. Your ‘arguments’ are all met and refuted.
Your turn. Putz.
gfun,Another misinterpretation on your part, I’m afraid: A catipiller is BOTH a catapiller and a moth . . . because of its DNA. Etc, etc, etc.
Your basic understanding of DNA is lacking. I suggest you read up on it, then tell me I’m wrong.
CF – I gotta ask – did your hands cramp after typing that much? I’ll have to go back and read it in detail when I have an hour or two :)
Julie,
Nah, it’s all about the cut and paste–just like comrade “thinker.” The difference is that I can use my brain when needed; I have yet to see any such display from comrade “thinker.”
Wow! On Gitmo PR thread I was a liberal and on the Vet’s thread I’m right wing. I think I’m having an identity crisis! My multiple personalities must be showing!lolOohhhh! What am I turning into??????/sarcasm
McCain?
j/k
nah, I’m cuter than he is and make better brownies:)
Julie, just goes to show that you’re an individual thinker who doesn’t necessarily follow party lines. Good girl!
CF, that’s an astounding collection of information. The numbers and details boggle (and sicken) the mind.
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