Revelations today of another secret National Security Agency program shows again the need for Congress and the courts to better supervise domestic spying to make sure it is justified and legal.
The new program, which began soon after Sept. 11, collects phone records of millions of ordinary Americans in a massive database that the NSA then analyzes for calling patterns that might reveal terrorism activity, USA Today reported.
If that’s true, the NSA’s monitoring of Americans is much more extensive than the warrantless surveillance program first reported last year. In defending that program, President Bush insisted that the NSA was focused exclusively on international phone calls and e-mails to or from suspected terrorists. But as it turns out, if you call your next-door neighbor, a record of that call may end up in the NSA database.
Americans are all for fighting terrorism. But they need protections to make sure that the spying is justified and the government isn’t violating their civil liberties.
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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160 Comments
Huh. Nathan, earlier you were asking about a lie from Bush…?
What lie?
Impeach him for what, fighting terrorism?
CF,
If you go beyond the knee-jerk I’m a liberal and hate Bush reaction you might see the truth.
That domestic communications weren’t being surveilled, when in fact he knew that they were–that he had in fact authorized their surveillance.
If you’d go beyond your knee-jerk Bush worship reaction you might see the truth.
So the next time I call you disingenuous, remember back to right now when the truth stared you in the face and your looked away.
Phillip Brownlee you need to read USA Today or tune to FOX News to get the news. The Wichita Eagle is always a day late and a dollar short. According to the USA Today paper that I read, the calls between two parties in the US WERE NOT monitored for content, only for records of what number called what number. Who have you been calling that has got you so upset?.I don’t care if they record the number I have called or who called me and I for one am damn happy they are trying to protect me. If you are ashamed of the phone number you are calling, don’t call them..We will always have Bush HATERS that will call him names no matter what he does to protect them.
CF,
Show me the quote where bush said:
“That domestic communications weren’t being surveilled”
I somehow doubt Bush said that.
You are the disingenuous one. You seem to constantly distort what was really said in order to further your claims of Bush being a liar.
I am not looking away from anything.
I see a President who is doing what he can to fight terrorism in the world and a bunch of whiney liberals like you who will stop at nothing to try to undermine him and attack him for doing it.
Well said Nathan,you hit it right on.
The NSA is likely doing social network analysis (SNA) – which kind of reminds me of the statistical process of cluster analysis. But instead of being interested in the attributes of nodes (people, usually) SNA looks at the connections amongst nodes.
The process has business applications and we use it at my work to improve communication within the system to better provide customer service.
There is a Slovenian program that is free and used by most U.S. universities in studying this fascinating subject.
Here’s a link.http://vlado.fmf.uni-lj.si/pub/networks/pajek/
“pajek” is Slovenian for spider – a reference to studying webs.
I got a book that accompanies the program from Borders — it was kind of expensive (like a text book) but well worth it in understanding what the program can do.
Here’s the AP link:
http://articles.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20060511052409990008
“…AT&T Corp., Verizon Communications Inc., and BellSouth Corp. began turning over records to the NSA shortly after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, as USA Today reported based on anonymous sources it said had direct knowledge of the arrangement.”
Looks like Verizon and I may be parting ways.
I have even thought it would interesting to study the social networks that can be detected on this Blog. When I run out of things to do, I think I will try it.
And I see an unconstitutional usurper, and his would-be fascist apologists who can’t hand their freedom away fast enough.
I don’t want the government possessing a full record of all my calls. Period. It’s a massive intrusion. I value my freedom and privacy.
What cowards you Wingnuts be–Nathan and Flatlander. Some brown-skinned nutcase threatens America and you pee all over the Constitution.
Fortunately, you suck-up Bush Administration dead-enders are on your way out. I predict this latest revelation will drive that 31% down still further.
If you are calling terrorists, or anyone else that you are ahamed for it to be known, you need to part ways with Verizon, for myself, it has raised my opinion of Verizon.
That Flatlander LOVES him some police state.
DD
The company I work for uses a similar system to study e-mail patterns to look for improper activity that might signal industrial espionage.
CF/Chicken Little…
What is funny to me is that while your Democratic party is directly trying to attack my 2nd amendment rights you are sitting here talking about how the Presidents defending it from terrorism is somehow against it…
This revelation is apparently causing the WhiteHouse to stall their assault on Congress over the nomination of Hayden. So, this revelation does not seem to be without consequence.
This guy, Valdis Kreb http://www.orgnet.com/ did a SNA of the 9-11 Highjackers with info that was publicly available and posted it on his web site. [He concluded that terrorist cells are easily identified, if you know what you are looking for]. When the CIA, NSA, and others found out about it, he was invited to Washington, DC where they carefully picked his brain. The deal with this data mining/collection process is that a great deal of chaff is collected along with very little wheat.
I think the wiggle room the president and handlers will look for on this will be — “well we weren’t really listening in on the calls — so, no foul.” A bunch in congress are threatening to subpeona telephone officials to find out the REAL story.
This could be interesting.
Heckler,Interesting.
If I’m not mistaken the administration previous to Bush’s was using the NSA in the same way except they were looking for industrial espionage. I’ll have to do a little searching but I’m pretty sure about that.
And yet another leak that makes it easier for terrorists to avoid detection.
CF aks “picklyone” is sure paranoid AND his memory is going. The Some brown-skinned nutcase did more than “threaten America”, they killed three thousand American..If he was in one of those buildings that September day he would be peeing all over himself yelling why didn’t Bush do more!!
Flatlander,
Just because I’m paranoid doesn’t mean they aren’t out to get me. As your veiled threat/impotent little attempt at ‘outing’ me suggests. Go ahead and send me a message; it’s a live address, as Hank Price can tell you.
And sorry to break this to quivering, scared, incontinent little Flatlander, but I suspect that our 3,000 dead fellow citizens probably wouldn’t be happy to see their sacrifice being used as a political pretext to piss all over the Constitution.
I hereby do absolve and remove from george bush any responsibility for “protecting me”. I freely release him of any responsibility if I am killed or injured or even offended by scary middle eastern people or any other such bogeymen.
I require in exchange, removal of george bush’s nose from my phone calls, emails,library records, smoke signals, hand gestures, etc.
In short Mr. pResident, please stay off my side.
Ahhh, Dumbya’s daily dump on the Constitution.
So sad to see Bushbots more interested in their political party affiliation than basic American freedoms.
Now that is treason.
The only problem is that in order to continue with your tantrum of pissing and pooping on the Consititution you have to have little or no knowledge of what it actually says or allows for.
I have far more faith in the NSA’s ability to follow legal guidelines than I have in the Shrub’s ability to set those guidelines. His ” I know all, do all and am all” mentality is scarey.
Sorry JR, it is his duty to defend you and the Constitution from terrorism.
If you no longer wish to have the freedoms America has to offer I would suggest moving to somewhere more tropical… say the Congo.
Well, I will add my voice, this time against USA Today for their undermining another program that helps identify terrorist threats. Thanks a lot. Any responsible news organization would recognize that this is not a privacy issue.
USA Today doesn’t have America’s best interests in mind. They just want to sell papers. That and feed paranoid fears. Pathetic!
FACT: As long as there is no monitoring of the conversation, there is no violation of the Constitution. Those who say it is a violation need to go back to grade school and that includes anyone on the editorial board at the Wichita Eagle and Mr. Corn Flakes.
Congratulations, Outlander, for the dumbest post in the history of this blog. You partisan ostriches disgust me.
I am less safe today than I was on Sept. 12, 2001, thanks to the lawless, self-serving behavior of the Pinochet of the Potomac.
Meanwhile, those of you who value your political party more than this country can return to your self-serving, intellectually deficient rants. Those of us who are still Americans will straighten this mess out in November.
Jimbo, your hatred blinds you. Use some common sense.
I would have been disappointed in our government if we weren’t doing something like this.
Jungle Jim,
I don’t think a single piece of your post actually addressed any bit of the topic or brought something to the disucssion besides name calling.
All of you whiny, lefty, liberal, communist, socialist, secularist, evolutionist traitors should be glad that God’s Amabassador to the United States knows that ignoring the Constitution is sometimes necessary to protect us from the evildoers that hate our freedom. Fascism is the only tool we have in the global fight to maintain our freedom and democracy.
Ah, truly the essence of Bushthink!
And yet another post which refuses to address anything resembling the truth.
Nathan,Given your bragging in previous threads about all the guns you own, I wouldn’t be surprised if the NSA has you down as a potential terrorist. Tell us how right that is after your extreme rendition!
All the crybabies (Democrats) can do is attack, attack, attack anything the Republicans do because they don’t have a clue on developing a plan to protect this country..In fact, I was told by an ex member of the US congress who was a Democrat that that WAS the plan..They don’t want to put forth anything that can be analyzed.
Is there going to be plenty of booze and lots of guns at this WE BLOG picnic?That could make things interesting.Maybe you bloggers could just do the damned American thing and bring some boxing gloves?
“I somehow doubt Bush said that.”
Maybe not in so many words. We just kinda assumed he was obeying the law, ya know? And here’s a quick recap of what he DID say (from HERE no less):
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2005/12/cal_says_give_m.html#comment-12257424
TRACY: No booze, possibly 1 or 2 will INSIST on packing heat.
Who’s bringing the kevlar? GMC70 can serve as star prosecution witness!
“Maybe not in so many words…”
LOL
It is so obvious how desperate you must be when you have to resort to manipulating what someone says to accuse him of being a liar.
How sad.
This is what the democrats have to offer America?
Lets throw as much mud at the President as we can so maybe it will make him and the Republicans look bad enough that we will win.
You better have the lvl III kevlar armor because I have armor piercing rounds for my M4…
Bushie,
You have learned your lessons well, young Padawan
Sincerely,
Stasi and Gestapo
Sigh. . . from the relevant link Nathan just ignored:************“When the President speaks, he better mean it. . . . Now, by the way, any time you hear the United States government talking about wiretap, it requires — a wiretap requires a court order. Nothing has changed, by the way. When we’re talking about chasing down terrorists, we’re talking about getting a court order before we do so. It’s important for our fellow citizens to understand, when you think Patriot Act, constitutional guarantees are in place when it comes to doing what is necessary to protect our homeland, because we value the Constitution.”
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/04/20040420-2.html
Oops, chalk that one up as another LIIIIE from the Liar-in-Chief. He doesn’t get court orders and he apparently DOESN’T value the constitution.
Posted by: Galahad | December 21, 2005 at 10:42 AM************
Including, of course, a link to the source. And which has been common knowledge for MONTHS!
How exactly, Nathan, can you parse that into something OTHER than a lie?
Outlander,I think I agree with you. From what I understand of the science of this technique, it is effective. I don’t think it will harm me if the NSA sees what my communiction network is.
Having said that, this statement -”Any responsible news organization would recognize that this is not a privacy issue”does not make any sense, because clearly it is a privacy issue.
The fundamental question is: How much intrusion into our privacy should be tolerated in the name of searches for terrorists. I say okay to what I think is happening — it is however data mining, contrary to what Bush said today. I think it is also perfectly legitimate for someone to disagree with me and you on this subject.
Our freedoms are protected by openness and the right to disagree with our government. The press is an important part of maintaining our democracy — not a cause of ruination of it.
Keeping many things secret does not protect us. It opens up the possibility for abuse of power: recall, Richard Nixon – witness, GW Bush.
How cute KGB!
Ooh, Nathan’s NSA dossier just got fatter!
Rage,
The President was talking about wiretaps requiring a court order.
Is what the NSA doing considered “wire taps?”
Nope.
Keep trying though rage, you only further demonstrate how desperate you are.
And the definition if “is” is?
What i think is happening on this front has been suspected for a long time. What makes this a story is that Bush is reacting to the U.S.A. Today piece. He is reacting (I believe) because of the damage it might do to his CIA nominee, Hayden. His reaction made things worse for him, rather than better — it would appear at this time anyway.
Good point DD. It would have better to have said it is not a LEGITIMATE privacy issue.(IMHO)
However, secrecy is necessary in some components of national defense. Just because a news organization learns something juicy does not mean it is OK to disclose it.
Hehehe! That answers my question, right on cue!
It depends on if the definition of ‘wiretap’ wiretaps!
This is not a pipe!
Out,Are you saying that these discosures are forcing Bush to lie, so it’s the media’s fault that he does?
Make that “disclosures.”
Massive furor…and I can’t help but wonder why?
INVASION OF PRIVACY is the obvious answer. But..what exactly is that?
I am really curious to know the actual harm caused. Not defending anyone or any policy, but wondering what the harm is? If a record of a call I made to my sister is in a database somewhere, what harm does that do?
Has there been one, just one documented instance of ANY harm to anyone, anywhere, any time because of these records of calls?
I supposed I will have dozens of self-righteous, pumped up, infuriated and insulted responses, yelling about abuses, violations, etc., etc. But..I simply ask, what is the harm?
Of course, some will quote the Constitution, believing we enjoy a right to “absolute privacy”..which is not true. How many people have Social Security numbers/place of work/home residence/birthdate/birthplace/etc., recorded by the Social Security Administration? Is that not a VIOLATION OF PRIVACY?
We are secure from unreasonable searches and seizures. Did the framers of the Constitution believe that applied to conversations? I don’t know, not being a Constitutional scholar. I don’t think they ever dreamed of electronic conversations, and if they had, would they hold them to be as secure as our homes?
A phone conversation leaves our residence and travels the Public Switched Network. Can we reasonably expect it to be as private as our personal diaries?
I do not mean to raise anyone’s blood pressure..this topic has done so often enough before. But, I honestly do not see any REAL harm caused. Is there a POTENTIAL for harm? Of course..there is also POTENTIAL for harm when you register for a driver’s license.
Jed: What I am saying is that a news organization has a responsiblity to the people of this country not to disclose information that aids our enemies. USA Today did just that today.
First, they weren’t spying on anybody. Then, they were only spying on people who had phone conversations with Osama. Now they’re spying on everybody. They’re not listening in on actual conversations?
You’d have to be a complete moron to believe that.
What kind of wierd backwords logic is this?
The privacy issue deals directly with WIRETAPS of phones without warrants, the constitutionality of this issue is about WIRETAPS, when the NSA is not wiretapping anything.
Bush says that he will not wiretap without warrants…
Now I am the one playing word games when it is all you people here trying to say that he lied about wiretaps and getting a warrant when it is not wiretapping?
You are the ones who are manipulating words, I am trying to talk about what was said.
Show me where Bush lied. (period)
All this conjecture is getting silly.
Here’s the thing, raptor. I believe the answer to your question, “Has there been one, just one documented instance of ANY harm to anyone, anywhere, any time because of these records of calls?” is this: no. That doesn’t mean, though, that no harm has been done. It just means there is no documentation for it yet.
Thing is, with these guys they never tell the whole truth. We keep learning more about NSA wiretaps a drib at a time.
Let me ask you this question: knowing what you do of this administration, do you trust President Bush’s actions based on his definition of Right to Privacy?
For me, I do not.
My lack of confidence in President Bush is based on basic issues of competency like WMD in Iraq, Katrina, Michael Brown, Miers, Medicare costs, and Karl Rove. In other words, these guys are really, really bad at governing, and I see no reason to assume their performance spikes upward in a program that’s been around throughout the Bush administration.
I *might* be made to feel comfortable, but President Bush has totally lost my implicit trust. In other words, for me to feel comfortable with Bush’s NSA wiretaps, I believe honest and open Congressional hearings are in order.
Without some kind of fact-finding about the law here, I find myself becoming increasingly uncomfortable about the whole thing.
“Just because a news organization learns something juicy does not mean it is OK to disclose it.”
Outlander,I agree with the above and believe that most newspapers try not to reveal information that would be harmful to national security. The most recent example that I’m recalling is that the Washington Post knew the Eastern European countries where the secret CIA prisons were located. The paper did not allow Dana Priest to report on this due to concerns of what might happen to those prisons/operations. Also the location information wouldn’t have added much to the block-buster story they had, anyway.
I will go further and say that I am not seeing that the NSA program was compromised. I don’t know what a terrorist cell network looks like. Maybe Osama does. I wonder if Al Qeada could piece together enough information to have a guess at what is sought — I am speculating not.
Nathan,
You’re wrong. The issue concerns surveillance, not merely wiretapping and the contents of communications. For the government to know WHO I’m talking to is for the government to know the content of my communcation. Hence, the information about WHO I talk to is information that requires the government to obtain a warrant under FISA. Once again, Nathan the Bush-worshipper is all wet.
http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/
Now, Nathan, I know that Glenn Greenwald is a Jew and all, and that your dad feels he can just ignore Greenwald for this reason, although I don’t know if this is YOUR view as well. But you really ought to look at Greenwald’s discussion, which lays out the appropriate statutes, and shows how PRECISELY the data mining being activities that the NSA has outsourced to Bell South and Verizon would require warrants under the statute. I don’t see how the Administration can legitimately get around the FISA requirements by asking third-party businesses to provide the protected information. Isn’t such consumer information protected?
And no, Nathan, the Administration’s reading of Article II doesn’t trump FISA, either. Bush is a President, Nathan, not a monarch or a god, your kow-towing notwithstanding.
If the NSA is data mining, what’s the next step? If they’re listening in on “possible terrorists” calls, what’s next?
Good grief. My daughter’s fiance was deployed to UAE for a couple of months (he does this about twice a year with the AF), and he called my daughter several times a day. I’m sure her phone records show these calls. Both were U.S. cell phone numbers, but they possibly could’ve raised some flags.
So, the ‘unitary executive’, who claims the ‘final interpretation’ of the Constitution that trumps the powers of the Supreme Court and the Congress, now knows the names of everyone I’ve spoken to in the United States of America.
So, NOW can we impeach the motherfucker?
CF, you really ought to merchadise that slogan before someone else does!
All you bush defenders and apologists must surely know that you are the last rats to jump off the sinking ship that is the bush presidency.
MSNBC poll shows 76 percent do not want the government collecting their phone records.
You hard core 24 percent will still be waving your little bush banners long after impeachment.
Hell, even rats know when to leave the ship. Apparantly you arent even THAT smart.
And let me remind some of the more pious here that gay marriage now has higher approval ratings than the preznit.
This is the not so pretty face of desparation we talked about during the blissful interlude when nathan was gone.
Sorry this is so long. And check out the next to last question and answer.
The National Security Agency has been collecting domestic calling records from major telecommunications companies, sources told USA TODAY. Answers to some questions about the program, as described by those sources:
Q: Does the NSA’s domestic program mean that my calling records have been secretly collected?
A: In all likelihood, yes. The NSA collected the records of billions of domestic calls. Those include calls from home phones and wireless phones.
Q: Does that mean people listened to my conversations?
A: Eavesdropping is not part of this program.
Q: What was the NSA doing?
A: The NSA collected “call-detail” records. That’s telephone industry lingo for the numbers being dialed. Phone customers’ names, addresses and other personal information are not being collected as part of this program. The agency, however, has the means to assemble that sort of information, if it so chooses.
Q: When did this start?
A: After the Sept. 11 attacks.
Q: Can I find out if my call records were collected?
A: No. The NSA’s work is secret, and the agency won’t publicly discuss its operations.
Q: Why did they do this?
A: The agency won’t say officially. But sources say it was a way to identify, and monitor, people suspected of terrorist activities.
Q: But I’m not calling terrorists. Why do they need my calls?
A: By cross-checking a vast database of phone calling records, NSA experts can try to pick out patterns that help identify people involved in terrorism.
Q: How is this different from the other NSA programs?
A: NSA programs have historically focused on international communications. In December, The New York Times disclosed that President Bush had authorized the NSA to eavesdrop – without warrants – on international phone calls to and from the USA. The call-collecting program is focused on domestic calls, those that originate and terminate within U.S. borders.
Q: Is this legal?
A: That will be a matter of debate. In the past, law enforcement officials had to obtain a court warrant before getting calling records. Telecommunications law assesses hefty fines on phone companies that violate customer privacy by divulging such records without warrants. But in discussing the eavesdropping program last December, Bush said he has the authority to order the NSA to get information without court warrants.
Q: Who has access to my records?
A: Unclear. The NSA routinely provides its analysis and other cryptological work to the Pentagon and other government agencies.
“Is what the NSA doing considered ‘wire taps?’”
At this time we really don’t know. After a congressional investigation, which appears to be coming, we might know then.
CF, the profane socialist shock jock. You have delusions of your own importance, IMHO. The government doesn’t care who you talk to. Unless…
But even so, don’t you think that national security concerns would trump your concerns about data mining.
Excellent point, Flike. You make a lot of sense…thanks for the perspective.
Gotta agree with you..would I trust someone from the Bush administration to NOT cause some harm? When you put it that way, there is only one answer…NO.
This is really quite amusing.
Raptor, Nathan, and Flatlander have no problem with gov’t monitoring their calls as long as they don’t listen in.
Ah okay . . . so when Rap calls those 3 dollar a minute phone sex lines, he doesn’t care, because they “can’t listen in.”
Or let’s say that Nathan calls Rush Limbaugh three times a day when he’s supposed to be working at his job in the government. His boss finds out he’s wasting time and so Nathan gets fired, but it’s worth it because he cares about “national security.”
Now the first thing the right-wingers are going to say is that we have no knowledge of what the NSA does with the information they collect, so no harm, no foul.
But how do we know it can be kept secret? How do we know it isn’t being sold? How do we know it isn’t going to turn up in court documents or get leaked or get accessed by a private investigator or affect our credit rating?
We don’t. We just have to “trust them.”
Except that’s exactly what the Constitution says we DON’T HAVE TO DO.
As for me, I’m sticking with the Constitution.
Screw the feds. They can’t even find Osama and everybody knows he’s in Pakistan.
It’s like the sign you see in offices: Your failure to plan doesn’t constitute an emergency on my part . . .
Well that’s odd . . . I posted and it says I posted but there’s no post.
Hmmm . . . maybe it’s a communist conspiracy.
Ah ha . . . tried to fool me . . .
Gosh, do you think privacy might be one of the values people were thinking of in this poll? The NYT/CBS news poll results released yesterday said:
Fifty percent said Democrats came closer than Republicans to sharing their moral values, compared with 37 percent who said Republicans shared their values.
A majority said Republican members of Congress were more likely to be financially corrupt than Democratic members of Congress, suggesting that Democrats may be making headway in their efforts to portray Republicans as having created a “culture of corruption” in Washington.
By better than two to one, Democrats were seen as having more new ideas than Republicans. And half of respondents, the highest number yet, said it was better when different parties controlled the two branches of Congress, reflecting one of the major arguments being laid out by Congressional Democrats in their bid to win back the House or the Senate.”
Just in time for the new WE VALUES editor to start preaching. Cant wait.
Wonder if anyone will balance out the new values guru? Probably not.
Outlander,
Well, evidently the Bush Administraion thinks I’m important enough that it needs to know who I’ve spoken to and for how long.
And, just to frame the issue differently, Outlander, do you want to defend the proposition that ‘national security’ trumps the rule of law?
Of course, as the rr’s (remaining rats) will chorus, the only poll that matters is in november.
heheheheh. hee hee. cant wait. bookmarking the rr’s greatest hits right now.
but just keep bailing boys. the titanic aint half under yet.
or is that the hindenburg?
Wonder what the WE’s new values boy will have to say about this?
Uh.. do ya suppose he will be a remaining rat?
I nominate CF to balance out the new taliban shill at the WE.
I mean, this paper will be as fair and balanced as fox? heheh.
If the data mining that I believe the NSA is doing were to come under the oversight of FISA as the link CF provided says it does, do you realize that this would mean the NSA would have to get literally millions upon millions of FISA warrents? Talk about clogging the court system.
In the link CF provided when Qwest was fighting turning over their system/records they advised the NSA to go to FISA before they would turn anything over. NSA refused.
This will be an interesting story to follow.
DD,
Indeed. And as a thought experiment, try to imagine Fratrander/Nathan/Outlander’s response if this NSA data mining operation had happened in, say, 1993.
I-O-K-I-Y-A-R.
ksfarmgrrl,
The new Eagle columnist is a whiny cross between a Wingnut Howard Beale and a waffle.
I guess I should expect as much from a newspaper that balances out Cal with Trudy. Cant wait for the lectures from the moral high ground. heheh. Maybe we’ll get some more heart wrenching stories about how fabulous life is here.
Jack Cafferty had some good comments yesterday on CNN.
“We all hope nothing happens to Arlen Specter, the Republican head of the Senate Judiciary Committee, cause he might be all that stands between us and a full blown dictatorship in this country.
He’s vowed to question these phone company executives about volunteering to provide the government with my telephone records, and yours, and tens of millions of other Americans.”
Shortly after 9/11, AT7T, Verizon, and BellSouth began providing the super-secret NSA with information on phone calls of millions of our citizens, all part of the War on Terror, President Bush says.
Why don’t you go find Osama bin Laden, and seal the country’s borders, and start inspecting the containers that come into our ports?
Well CF, at least he isnt pretending to be fair:
“I’m one of those people classified as a “values voter.” When I vote, I consider more than which political party promises to let me keep more of my paycheck. My vote is heavily influenced by social issues, such as abortion and topics that affect families.”
snip. but then he goes on to say something that flies in the face of the above:
“But my agenda is not dictated by some lockstep conservative view.”
So…I guess we can expect more of this kind of mindless hypocricy?
heheh. and then he proceeds to list exactly HOW he is no different than fred and terry and joe.
More “fair and balanced” we can expect from this guy:
“The Republican Party is the most accommodating to my views”
snip
“By focusing in coming columns on subjects and perspectives important to social conservatives”
Wanna bet MY families values wont get equal time, much less a dedicated columnist? And who will present the democrat point of view? Zell Miller?
Disgusting. Is this what journalism has come to in Wichita? No wonder the blog is so popular. It may be the only place the MAJORITY values opinions are published in the WE.
I bet nathan is wetting his panties in excitement over this values guru.
ksfarmgrrl,
Anybody who’d willingly adopt such a phony and manufactured label is, frankly, a dolt. And then to pretend he has any substantive disagreements with the GOP and that he’s his own man–such posturing. He’s a media-imagined simulacra, a copy without an original, a demographic without a member.
Still, I predict lots of unintentional laughs in the platitudes that, already, are masquerading as pronouncements.
Here’s a link to Brent’s debut:
http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/editorial/14547992.htm
Where did they find this guy?
Phillip, you’ve got some explaining to do.
Oooh, and Brent’s edgy! He uses ‘pimps’ as a verb to describe how the GOP loves him and then leaves him after Election Day!
Take that, Tim Schallenberger!
CF, I still nominate you to provide the balance to this terry/joe/fred clone.
And I see cancancanibegov is taking kathie “i never met a public school or a queer i didnt hate’ decker as his running mate.
Oh..swoon… where is rhonda’s fainting couch? Whatever will the voters of wingnuttia do? kathy or susan “i make my money from bingo but you cant vote on gambling” wagle?
They cant out wingnut each other far enough and fast enough.
But I guess they represent the WE family values coalition… heheh.
I wonder if valuesboy will give us a thread that says “the world according to wingnuts”?
Really, I am disappointed in the WE. DD, I tried to give them the benefit of the doubt because of you, but this just takes the cake.
Maybe we will get a thread that says “WE finally admits true colors”.
He promises to be a live one.
http://www.f5wichita.com/view/index.php?pubdate=2003-08-07&story=556
Oy vey. And they hired him KNOWINGLY?
Really. I wonder who will balance this guy’s sermons.
joe or terry?
fred is so, like, last year.
Although they do insist on giving fred front page treatment.
Jesus wept.
ksfarmgrrl,
You are too kind. But my time off is a comin’, and I’ve got writing and publishing to do.
Anyway, since you mentioned Canfield, here’s a slice of life for y’all. Last week I was grading at Starbucks out on Rock Road and I had the creepy, creepy experience of watching Candidate Canfield court Mark Gietzen and Cheryl Sullenger of Operation Rescue. Them’s some scary, scary, scary pro-birth folks. Gietzen was going on about how Canfield needed to be a ‘real’ culture warrior, and how Schallenberger had let the pro-birthers down last time. Gietzen had his son with him, the one I think he was charged with beating. Seriously scary folks. I felt that I had witnessed something very, very unclean.
Here’s their portraits, by the way.
http://www.maggotpunks.com
Oh DD, I just remembered. I bet Mark Geitzen will be the counter balance.
Looks like the WE is afraid of all of them.
Wonder how much the church’s buy in advertising?
heheh CF, looks like great minds work alike. The new weboy reminded us BOTH of geitzen.
And why am I not surprised that a “familyvaluesculturewarrior” like geitzen would think child abuse is a family value?
hee hee maybe ksmeadowlark could be the counterbalance. Oh wait, he is already the resident wingnut at the salina journal.
Spare the rod…enable a liberal.
That was quite a Zeitgeist moment there, ksfarmgrrl. Or synchronicity. Or serendipity-doo-dah. Or somethin’.
Hook…your juvenile and insulting comments have no place in a mature and rational discussion. Please take your insults back to your grade school where some of your contemporaries might be amused.
Phone sex lines? Nice personal accusation, you little jerk. Grow up, hook.
What I find funny is that the same right wing nutbags that think it is OK for the government to keep a list of every phone call that you make would never support the same government maintaining a list of the guns that they own.
So the right wingers are all in favor of more and more government spying on people and their conversations?
Ok.Best be careful what you wish for.
Aint gonna be long and the worm will turn.
Once Dems are back in charge, I want government monitoring of ALL churches. If they are going to remain tax epxempt, I want assurances that no politics is being discussed from the pulpit. To this end I want all church communication monitored.
okay, assuming they aren’t listening to actual conversations, the way they’re crunching phone numbers, they can get more private information on you than they could glean from your chats. This is clearly the intelligence community’s designer drug that stays one step ahead of the law.The problem with governments obtaining such information (dossiers) on ordinary citizens is that when they do, people start disappearing (or are “rendered”). Think Chile or Argentina. Our intelligence community has already started doing that in other countries; it won’t be long before we have our own disapperados.Personally, I hope some poor NSA agent isn’t trying to make sense of my phone calls- I’d hate to be responsible for his nervous breakdown!
Back to the original discussion,
“Last year…Bush insisted that the NSA was focused exclusively on international calls. “In other words,” Bush explained, “one end of the communication must be outside the United States.”
“Bush administration officials have said repeatedly that the warrantless surveillance program authorized by President Bush after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks is carefully targeted to include only international calls and e-mails into or out of the USA, and only those that involve at least one party suspected of being a member or ally of al-Qaeda or a related terror group.”
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-10-nsa_x.htm?POE=NEWISVA
Somebody’s lying.
Had enough?
JR,You are assuming, of course, that the NSA hasn’t defined Democrats as the enemy.
Dear Senior Bush:
Listen carefully ……
You are one (*)
“Maybe we will get a thread that says “WE finally admits true colors”.”
KFG: Actually, it appears to me that the WE is attempting to remedy the obvious deficit in conservative thought on their Editorial staff. Maybe we finally get a little balance.
“And, just to frame the issue differently, Outlander, do you want to defend the proposition that ‘national security’ trumps the rule of law?”
CF: Assuming that you are talking in specific rather than general terms, what rule of law would you be referring to?
“obvious deficit in conservative thought”
Can’t decide: is that a complaint, or a self-description?
Sorry, Out, the devil made me do that.
KFG – I saw a purple chicken headed for western kansas recently.
A little story and a fact, one day I came home from taking the kids to school. I noticed a piece of trash toward the back of the driveway and went to pick it up. I noticed a orange sticker on a car we had setting in front of our garage, that is behind a six foot privacy fence. In order to see the car one would have to walk drive the drive and around the fence. The sticker stated that the city compliance officer had came onto my property on a date and at a time that I was home and would have been less then twenty feet from the car.
The stick stated that the city had deemed the vehicle a wreck and abandoned, under the city ordinance any vehicle that at anytime was not in a condition of being able to drive. It was a wreck and had been abandoned, under this ordinance if you came out to go to work and discovered you had a flat tire. So you took another vehicle, the vehicle with a flat tire has been wrecked and abandoned…That was an explanation they gave.
I was mad as the officer had not even knocked on the door and left me know what he was doing. When I called the city I was told that under the utility usage agreement, I had authorities a city employee to come on my property without prior notice and that the agreement covers ANY city employee for any reason. As such law enforcement could come on my property and do what ever they wished as long as they did not enter any structure. But they could also look into any window as long as they did not have to move anything.
My point being that giving permission or excusing a minor allowance often opens up for a large and less agreeable intrusion into your private affairs. Collecting a database of all phone called in the United States even without who’s number is who’s. Though on the face of it may not be that big a deal. (BYW once a number is collected it is nothing to find out the information behind that number) it does fall under the thought process of if we just search every house on the block we would likely find illegal activity.
I keep hearing “I have nothing to hide” and “If you have nothing to hide…” if you truly feel that way then of course you will not mind if the authorities come in without notice, anytime of the day or night with any force they feel like using, And certainly you would not mind as was stated by the city employee in the case I started with. Come on your property, walking around your house looking in any window, looking about your property at will.
Such things depend on trust and that the authority does not violate that trust. But once that trust is questioned or not questioned for what may seem a minor intrusion. It is like a dog that manages to get its nose in the crack of a door. They will open it farther, they just can not seem to help themselves!
Outlander,
The one that requires the Administration to abide by the rulings of the FISA court.
“And yet another leak that makes it easier for terrorists to avoid detection.”
There is another straw man!!! Guess what, the terrorists already were suspecting of being spied on. It was the American public that were unaware and clueless.
Outlander,
‘Conservative thought.’ Heh heh. Isn’t that something like ‘jumbo shrimp’ or ‘military intelligence’?
I just skipped everybody’s post, because there are more than 100 of them.
I’ll just say this:
It’s not illegal.
Phone numbers do not belong to you, they belong to the phone company.
This has been done before, even during the Clinton Administration. It’s called Project Echelon.
The timing of this leak is right when Hayden is nominated.
My guess it will blow over. Nothing illegal. But the terrorist now have a clue on how to bypass National Security measures, because of this leak.
The leaker is most likely a leftist Democrat in a government position with the goal of underminding the Administration for political purposes or to abed our enemies. I hope they catch and prosecute this leaker
Leftist Democrats: Culture of Treason.
Wingnuts: Betrayers of the Constitution.
Joe, YET again:
(1)The FISA law says domestic wiretaps are illegal unless otherwise authorized by statute.
(2)They weren’t.
(3)The Fourth Amendment says: “The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”
(4) Katz v. Unites States specifically ruled that illegal wiretaps of Americans are unconstitutional.
(5) The president does not have the right to break the law.
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2006/02/is_eavesdroppin.html#comment-13700016
How is objecting to illegal activity by the government “treason”?
The man is the White House swore an oath to take care that the laws be faithfully executed. That doesn’t mean reinterpreting them out of existence.
IMPEACH!
“Conservative thought” says it all. Too bad some are not more conservative with their small thoughts. They liberally post their limited thinking!
Joe Williams: apologetic Bush apologist.
Pathetic to watch Joe Williams proclaim himself a ‘moderate’ and then whore himself out to this renegade, lawless ‘Administration.’ All so Rummy can tuck him in at night and make him feel safe.
Damn good bonedig that Rage. It reveals my misconception that Nathan was the doulble of another poster. A common error at one time.
It also reveals Nathan admitting that as a member of the military, he cannot objectively post as to the pResident. He knew that 3 months ago and he is STILL trying to fool us……..and himself.
And OUTLANDER! I had forgotten that he advocated foreign policy as suggested by a fictional TV show!
Think this is not politically motivated to mess with the CIA Director’s nomination? It’s not even a new story.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/24/politics/24spy.html?ei=5090&en=016edb46b79bde83&ex=1293080400&pagewanted=print
This isn’t wiretapping. This is datamining. They are not listening to conversation.
This isn’t unreasonable search and seizure because telephone numbers and the phone network doesn’t belong to you. They belong to the phone company and they can do what they want with it. So your phone number is not your property nor is it your privacy.
This isn’t a seizure, because the phone companies volunteered the information to the government. They were not forced to give them the information. They could choose to opt out if they want. Qwest Communications is an example of a company that DID NOT participate in giving information to the NSA.
Again! This isn’t new. Project Echelon has been around for a long time. Even the Clinton Administration did EXACTLY what the Bush Administration is doing now. Under Project Echelon, it even went further with e-mails.
This is just an extendtion of Project Echelon, which is now called Total Information Awareness.
All you guys do it personally attack me. I give out concrete information. Who’s the dummy?
Culture of Treason.
Well at least the phone companies are smart and patriotic enough to recognize that we are at war. Our liberal friends apparently aren’t. They are willing to see our security jeopardized as long as it is politically advantageous.
Treason?
Now Joe.
You are starting to trot that label out a lot lately.”Desperate times require desperate measures?” That seems your new mantra. Puzzling from someone who proclaims to be a moderate, and elsewhere this very day this very hour says he did not vote for bush.
“Patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels” Joe Williams….scoundrel?
Is it “treason” if I live by the philosophy that “Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice” ?
Oh and Out? I’m honoring my 3 month old pledge to ignore you starting now.
Thanks Rage, DD, KFG, CF et al. for the update on the new editorial writer who is SURPRISE! a card-carrying member of the Republican party.
But he calls himself “bipartisan.”
Have you noticed that whenever people call themselves “bipartisan,” it means they’re against you . . . (another Trumanism).
This would make me cancel my subscription, if I hadn’t already cancelled it about three years ago.
Harris poll in the WSJ: 29% think Bush is doing an ‘excellent or pretty good job.’
http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2006/05/11/bushs-approval-ratings/
So NOW can we impeach the motherfucker?
LH,
My thoughts exactly. Time to cancel the subscription. My poor spouse will miss the Wichitalk, comics, and puzzles. Sorry guys, we will have to find a better paper.
Shouldn’t be hard to do.
Ok stop.
Now my history here is I am late to everything. I can be forgiven this week what with my kids bday, a screwed up phone, tending new born kittens and herding cats for this meet up.
What are we talking about here? The Eagle has some new columnist? I didn’t get to read the Eagle today. help me out here.
I’ve been trying to make sense of this latest NSA thing all day. They’re collecting all phone records from at least 3 major phone carriers, both land and cell. There are supposedly no names connected with them. They are searching for some sort of pattern.
A pattern of what? Same number called each day? Same number called multiple times each day?
Unless they know a particular number is the number used by a terrorist, what does having billions of records gain them? If they know the number of a known terrorist, why not just get those records, not the records of everyone? Phone records show a lot of things, including outgoing, received, and three-way calling. Don’t they need to know what they’re looking for?
If someone can make sense of this for me, I’d be grateful. Sometimes I think in circles and don’t get anywhere. Or maybe there just isn’t anywhere to get…
Or are they checking to make sure we’re not calling terrorists?
I live in the state of Confusion.
RD like you I see little on the face of this that would be necessary for the fight against terrorism and for about the same reasons. Their looking for patterns? I am sure there are several patterns to the way people would call. Your parents on Sunday, your kids on Wednesday night. It would be more though like hiding a needle in the haystack. Unless you have an idea where the needle is it would be pointless. Unless you are wanting to make it appear to be you are looking for a haystack. To take from the bible, Harrah wanted to kill the new born savior so he ordered all children under a certain age killed. In order to get a certain phone record and not let anyone know which one…Get all of them!
I am trying not to read too much into it, but the logic of mining all those records and what exactly is the purpose is not truly clear. Nor on the face of it necessary, if we are at war (And I really am wondering just how much of it is wagging the dog) The steps to be taken are not being taken. secure the boarder , the ports and check all in coming containers. But that is too hard so we spy without a warrant, data mine phone records and violate the Constitution that is much easier!
What I want to know is how the hell the Chris Doughtry get voted off of American Idle. The Dude could sing now!!
This from a reader of one of my favorite blogs: “Those hot and bothered by the telephone call database mining program don’t know or appreciate what telephone companies do all the time for their business purposes or the purposes of their business partners.”
And this from that Blog: “And wasn’t there a big news story just a couple of months ago about the fact that, for a nominal sum, you can buy anyone’s cell phone records? In fact, liberal bloggers tried to put together a plan to buy and analyze the telephone records of prominent Republicans in hopes of finding calls that would somehow be embarrassing. These same liberals, of course, are now up in arms about the fact that the NSA does computer analyses of phone records, not with the malicious purpose of singling out political enemies for harassment, but to try to stop terrorist attacks. There is really no hypocrisy quite like the hypocrisy of a liberal.”
JR! It’s a “Culture of Treason” is a talking point. I’m not directing it at you.
But I’m glad I got underneath your skin. ;)
CF! Once again you proved yourself to be an disrespectful idiot.
This kind of information can be used for a lot of purposes that have nothing to do with fighting terrorism. For example, if a rumor surfaces that two corporations are in merger talks, you could check their phone records. A sudden rise in inter-company phone calls over the last month would confirm, and give profit-seeking analysts a major advantage. Actually, they could analyze inter-company records BEFORE any M&A rumors surface.
You could have political operatives snooping through elected officials’ phone records, looking for things to smear opponents with, or to maintain party “discipline”.
Given human greed and political behavior, these and other misuses of telephone records are quite conceivable. People use government positions to serve their own interests. IRS attorneys become private tax lawyers. FDA officials go to work for drug companies. High-ranking military officers become defense-industry executives. Congressmen become 7-figure-earning lobbyists. Ken Lay started his career in the federal government. Knowledge is power, and when it becomes concentrated, it becomes very powerful. And a great temptation to personally exploit.
Culture of Treason? Hey jackass,WE’RE the ones supporting that “scrap of paper” your fuhrer took an oath to uphold, and has been violating ever since! Don’t talk to us about treason.
In an attempt to answer RD’s question: we don’t know what the pattern(s) is/are that they are looking for and hence my contention that the program was not compromised by the USA Today story. But as an example…
When a small amount of gasoline is purchased and then a large purchase is made at Best Buy with a credit card, your credit card company will call you to make sure you authorize the purchases, because this pattern is one associated with a stolen credit card.
A Mennonite nurse friend of mine had her credit card stolen. The first purchases that were made with this stolen card were to 1)an internet pornography company and 2) a ticket to a hip hop concert – the credit card company called her before she called them – the purchases did not fit her profile.
Various patterns provide “foot prints” – I am assuming that the NSA knows what a terrorist cell foot print looks like.
Leave the kevlar at home and just bring some boxing gloves.If might is right, then the Bushistas should win the bout.
Joe Williams,
Tyrants SHOULD be disrespected, not encouraged and enabled.
I’m a Republican who voted for Ralph Nader in 2000. Why? Because I disagreed with some of his stands, and disagreed with some of his stands, but the bottom line was HE WAS HONEST. But honesty doesn’t work in our political economy. And that is the American people’s loss.
I saw Pat “I support NSA snooping” Roberts talk recently about why he “had” to support farm subsidies for big-ag “farmers” some of whom may spend most of their time running their Kansas farms from Palm Beach. He said they take “big risks”. It’s not a “big risk” if you have a federal-subsidy bailout. He was blatantly absurd. And you know what? He didn’t even realize it. He was talking about helping “free-market capitalists” to get rich on taxpayer monies. Isn’t that the regimen they use in Communist countries?
…and dont a lot of those big farmer land owners actually live OUTSIDE of kansas?
But pat loves him some rich folks, no? Keep those irrigation wells running boys!
All this just proves he is bush’s senator.
NO INCUMBENTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
“This isn’t unreasonable search and seizure because telephone numbers and the phone network doesn’t belong to you.”
Joe, phone companies do not operate in an unregulated environment. PEN registry data may be regarded as less intrusive, but a search is a search. And the feds didn’t just ASK for the information–they coerced. I suggest you read Justice Brandeis’ dissent in Olmstead v. U.S (the famous wiretapping case dissent, which was adopted as precedent by Katz v. U.S):
“Unjustified search and seizure violates the Fourth Amendment, whatever the character of the paper;4 whether the paper when taken by the federal officers was in the home,5 in an office,6 or elsewhere;7 whether the taking was effected by force,8 by [277 U.S. 438, 478] fraud,9 or in the orderly process of a court’s procedure. 10″ (Every footnote cites a Supreme Court precedent).
Moreover, if memory serves, the FISA law which bans such ‘cowboy’ operations doesn’t just speak to wiretapping–it’s about SURVEILLANCE in general. Absent separate statutory authority, such fishing expeditions are banned by FISA.
“Decency, security, and liberty alike demand that government officials shall be subjected to the same rules of conduct that are commands to the citizen. In a government of laws, existence of the government will be imperiled if it fails to observe the law scrupulously. Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy.”
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=277&page=438
Had enough?
here is a link that has complaint numbers for verizon customers, AT&T customers, and others to register their complaints with the service providers.
Scroll through the headlines in the comments to get the correct numbers. Apparantly after the first day the verizon “ethics” number was changed.
They are also saying that verizon wireless was not involved, only land lines. Why? Uh… the government didnt need them to turn over the records. They are just grabbing all our cell calls out of the air!!!!!!
They violated their contracts with you, so even though they are threatening “termination” fees, we are fighting back with class action lawsuits.
Interesting that the phone companies rolled over on their customers at the same time the ownership of the internet and content censorship are being considered in congress.
gee, you dont think there was some quid pro quo do ya?
I read this yesterday:
“The fourth amendment… it’s not just for dope dealers anymore!”
DD, if I understand this node analysis correctly, then terrorists don’t actually gain anything (by gain I mean that they can act to make themselves again invisible) – they don’t actually gain anything by knowing that the NSA employs call-traffic analysis, do they? I mean, the only way they can profit from any leak is to get completely outside the network itself, right? In other words, if terrorists wish to become invisible, then they have to quit using phone and optic-fiber lines to communicate, correct?
I mean, a similar analysis of communication traffic patterns was used by English and American cryptographers in WWII, I believe. As Joe has noted, the “news” about American use of such traffic analysis has probably been out of the bag for a long time now.
If I’m right – and if in order to regain their invisibility terrorists are forced to communicate by different, less-efficient means – then what’s the harm in merely announcing to the world that “the NSA uses traffic analysis?”
In fact, IF I’m correct, it seems to me that one could validly argue that leaking news of NSA traffic analysis might actually HELP in the gwot by forcing terrorists to use less efficient means of communication. After all, if they fear traffic analysis, then they are forced to use communication methods that do not provide input to the NSA’s traffic analysis.
Like maybe smoke signals?
The only real solution for terrorists would be to invent and build out a new communications infrastructure, one that mirrors the efficiencies of cell phones, land lines, email, etc., but that’s somehow obscure to traffic analysis. By the way, if true then this would mirror the way that sharply increased military spending by the US during the 1980s applied a fatal blow to the USSR’s centrally planned economy as the USSR first bought the idea of superior American technology and was then forced to spend to match it.
What I’m positing, then, is that announcing to the world that the NSA uses traffic analysis might actually benefit the US by forcing a terrorist “army,” IF one really exists, to employ terrorist engineers to develop a new communications infrastructure while foregoing telephones and email while using the equivalent of smoke signals to communicate from engineer to engineer to manager – or suffer the costs to their operations of American traffic analysis.
At the least, no matter what, the release of “news” that the NSA employs traffic analysis forces the terrorists to consider the pattern of their communication every time they talk. That has got to eat into the time they would otherwise employ planning on their next blow-up venture (as any manager can attest).
By the way, IF I’m correct, then President Bush is an idiot for taking terrible advice on this – or he employs exactly the advice he wants and merely prefers to keep the idea of a vast terrorist army alive and solidly in the non-fiction category, for reasons of his own.
$0.015
Unfortunately, technology has also provided means for communicating quickly and effectively outside the NSA network. It is known to be a practice of al Quaeda (how well i don’t know) to embed messages inside of hings like digital photographs. These are nearly impossible to detect, and if they are detected, the message is usually in code, making deciphering that much more difficult. So, is the smiling face of a young child on some obscure website actually a method for communicating a message? With the ease of posting images, sound recordings, videos, etc. and the ability to mask the sources of these images through dummy organization names, ISPs, etc., those wishing to communicate privately can still do so rather easily.
Excellent, flike! Thank you for organizing my thoughts. I was thinking walkie-talkies instead of smoke signals, but you’re right on.
Rage, hats off to you, too! I consider you the research guru.
Writerdog, thank you. I don’t feel I’m going silently insane now.
DD, wouldn’t they need something to base those footprints on? A before and after picture to actually SEE changes? My credit card company has a history of my purchases, and I, too, have been contacted when I’ve made a large purchase. I appreciated that. But if there’s no basis for comparison…
Whatever, I’ll get my new phone from Verizon, then I’ll send them an email, stating my displeasure with their handling of the NSA situation. Why waste airtime, especially if they’ve change their number. :)
News alert:
LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS SEARCH HOME OF OUTGOING CIA NO. 3, KYLE ‘DUSTY’ FAGGO.
Maybe were getting close to hanging some of these leakers!
Or Hooker Gaters maybe??
Wow Heckler you switch gears FAST!
On one thread you are ranting about protecting yourself from tyrannical government.
And here you are seeming to ADVOCATE for it.
“hanging the leakers”??
Flip…..FLOP
Thanks, Brian. Looks like the terrorists are not forced to build out a new infrastructure, then. Too bad.
Still, just their knowledge of NSA traffic analysis seems to have forced them to (1) have access to the web, and (2) decode a message left in a file somewhere.
It’s not exactly Cingular in its ease, is it?
I remain unconvinced that announcing to the world that “the NSA uses traffic analysis,” without announcing the specific details, is harmful at all.
In fact, it may be beneficial.
PS My argument is similar to the argument for CCW, by the way.
RD,I posted this yesterday on this thread at 1:54pm.
“This guy, Valdis Kreb http://www.orgnet.com/ did a SNA [Social Network Analysis] of the 9-11 Highjackers with info that was publicly available and posted it on his web site. [He concluded that terrorist cells are easily identified, if you know what you are looking for]. When the CIA, NSA, and others found out about it, he was invited to Washington, DC where they carefully picked his brain. The deal with this data mining/collection process is that a great deal of chaff is collected along with very little wheat.”
I am betting the NSA has a lot more information about what a cell looks like than Kreb did. They would not necessarily have to have historical data to compare their detected patterns to.
Thanks, DD. But this is what jumps out at me:
[He concluded that terrorist cells are easily identified, if you know what you are looking for].
Which means they had some sort of starting point. This Kreb guy took the 9/11 information and worked backward. Yes, I do believe the CIA, FBI, and the rest probably have more info, which makes this latest news more troubling. At least for me.
Like so many other things these days, it’s a done deal. Can’t do anything about it, and complaining doesn’t help. But it seems to me that these intrusions into our privacy just keep happening. It started with the Patriot Act, and now they continue to step even farther than that piece of crap.
flike,Sorry, I’ve been away. Yes, I think you’re right about there being no harm in announcing the NSA’s use of this technology. I am in agreement and you outline the basis of my agreement.
We hear reports that bin Laden uses hand written notes and couriers as a way around the limits imposed on his communication abilities. This is low tech and inefficient; and maybe why Al Qaeda is less of danger than it was (if that is in fact true).
As Brian points out above, there are ways around detection. I think it was Dana Priest who speculated that Al Qaeda may use a kind of passive method of communicating via the internet. A person is given a link to a page and based upon the characteristics of the page (a woman is depicted = do this; if a man is there = do that; this code would be known before hand); and they don’t then even have to encrypt anything on a page to use the internet this way.
RD,I think anytime we give up a privilege/right to the government, those are not usually returned very easily. So I think I agree with your concerns, generally.
Having said that, though, I am not sure how I will be harmed by the government having my phone traffic records or my internet traffic records. And, of course, me not being able to anticipate harms does not mean that there won’t be really awful things happening.
In the late 60’s I was an analyst in the Army Security Agency, in the area of Communications Security. We intercepted radio commo and tapped phones on Military Bases, etc. The information we could develop was incredible. What we could do then is laughable in light of the incredible technolgy available today.I’ll stick my neckout and say that based on what I read in yesterday’s USA Today, I don’t think what is going on is unlawful. I will say that the powers to are are about .01″ from entering that place of being unlawful. What really bothers me is King George’s belief that he need not be concerned with the law, because he is the law. I have not shred of faith in his ethics or morality, and that is what makes him the most dangerous man in D.C.
Right Wing Republicans: Culture of Collaboration.
You may be correct about his ethics and morality, gster, but what really gets me is that he’s an incompetent boob.
That alone is sufficient to warrant an investigation by Congress.
Bless his heart, but the president and all his men couldn’t pour p*ss out of a boot if the instructions were on the heel.
NPR reported poll data that 63% of respondents thought the telephone call records program was a legitimate way to fight terrorism. 66% reported being not bothered by the idea that the NSA would have their personal phone call records.
For whatever it’s worth…
Flike-
I like to think of him as being vacumm-packed, as in Nature abhors….
Make that vacuum.
DD, all, this is what you need to know about that poll…
http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/05/12/bush-league/
Yeah, KSF, just heard on AirAmerica–
“do you support the gov’t’s ability to stop terrorism, or do you want Al Qaeda to kill your loved ones?”
Okay, I’m exaggerating, but that’s basically how it was slanted.
At least it appears as if we can agree that polls can be skewed…
True, but just because a few are, doesn’t mean they all are.
When you ask 1000 Americans, “Is Bush doing a
good job pretty good job pretty poor job or very poor job,”
it’s hard to argue that the 29 percent who answer “good or pretty good” have been discouraged from any other response.
DD, there may be no harm at all caused by the phone listings. And it isn’t about my fear of being caught. Of and by itself, it’s no big deal. But when combined with other things, it becomes distrubing. It isn’t so much what they’re doing, it’s the principle of it. Using terrorism as a pretext, they’ve been chipping away, little by little, at our liberties. I’d say this no matter who was in office. I don’t like it.
To quote Patrick Henry: Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death!(Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!)