It’s not often that directors encourage people not to go see their movies, but that’s what Ron Howard did Wednesday, when asked about his controversial film “The Da Vinci Code.”
“There’s no question that the film is likely to be upsetting to some people,” he said. “My advice, since virtually no one has really seen the movie yet, is to not go see the movie if you think you’re going to be upset. Wait. Talk to somebody who has seen it. Discuss it. And then arrive at an opinion about the movie itself.
“Again: This is supposed to be entertainment, it’s not theology,” he said.
Posted by Melissa Cooley
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272 Comments
Funny thing is, noone claimed it was theology… it’s only a movie; historically inaccurate, but it might be pretty good. I don’t know if I’ll see it or not, all the media attention usually means I’ll be disappointed. I hope to see some good, honest movie reviews from the BLOG family!
Only in America
“Two new films which expose unpleasant truths about Guantanamo and the battle for Iraq are coming under pressure from censors in the United States.The Motion Pictures Association of America has censored a poster advertising a film about the Tipton three, called The Road to Guantanamo, that showed a hooded and blindfolded man hanging by his shackled wrists. Also, the makers of Baghdad ER, a documentary about a US military combat hospital, told the Guardian yesterday that Francis Harvey, the secretary of the army, had demanded last-minute changes to the film.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,1777136,00.html
I wasn’t really interested in this new movie, until I watched this morning’s news, that is. A couple of preachers were interviewed, one saying how his upcoming Sunday sermon is going to tell people to NOT go see it.. it might ’shake their beliefs” or some such nonsense.
If some of these supposed devout Christians can have their faith ’shaken’ by a movie, there is something wrong with their faith.
Haven’t these preachers ever heard of “entertainment” or “fiction”? Man, is there some 11th commandment that says, “thou shalt not have a sense of humor”?
Anything that shakes up the “faithful” has gotta be worth seeing. I look forward to it!
Not sure if this movie has anything objectionable for kids. My son insisted on seeing that “Narnia” thing. So I let him go. While he said the “preachiness” was little, this movie might provide him a little further “enlightenment”.
The truth about all religions: http://www.spunk.org/texts/humour/sp001523.html
Walker..That’s a bunch of crap!
I have not read the book, nor do I care about the religous controversy. I remember the film “Last Temptation of Christ” was one of those films and I thought that movie was great.
I don’t go to movie theaters anymore. I just rent on Netflix. Although there is a lot of hype about the Da Vinci Code movie, it got a lot of terrible reviews. But to it’s credit, there are some good reviews also.
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/da_vinci_code/
It’s too early for me to fully process the magnatude of Walker’s link. I tried, it’s too early for that sh-t and I need caffiene first.Anyway, back to the main topic. I read the book. It didn’t shake my faith. I still beleive Jesus Christ is my personal savior. (I know Nathan was wondering about that :) ). It was a nice piece of fiction that had some interesting plot twists and some hmmm, what if points. A book of fiction is just that – a nice story that takes us away from our ordinary mundane lives. Do any of us REALLY know what happened back then? Well since I’m not Methuselah and none of you are either then no. We have to take what is written in the bible and the word of historical scholars on faith (and a grain of salt since some people might have had parts rewritten because they didn’t like it).I would think that churches would embrace this movie and preach on ok, this piece of fiction says this… the Bible teaches us that… and show people the “light”/”way”.
I’ll probably go see the movie and post my reaction. Hey – maybe we could put together a blog at the movies night!
Some preachers want their “flock” to check their brains at the door. Seems I’ve read that as a believer I’m supposed to love the Lord with all my heart, all my soul, and all my MIND. Seems Christ wants us to retain use of our noggin.
Heheheh Jeff. You sure couldnt tell that about using their noggins in Wichita or in the rest of Kansas. “Thinking” and “values” voters dont belong in the same sentence… unless you put TALIBAN in front of the “values”. They only value their own well being. The rest of us? We can eat cake I guess. Or communion wafers.
I happen to like Dan Brown’s books, and I’ve read The Da Vinci Code twice, the second time so it would be fresh in my mind before seeing the movie.
Like Julie, I’m fully aware that the book is a work of fiction. I found the premise intriguing and liked the way Brown wove it throughout the story. There are many facts in the story, such as the basis for Friday the 13th being considered unlucky. Little things like that are interesting to me.
Julie, I’m having a hard time picturing Tom Hanks as Robert Langdon. I hope I won’t be dissapointed in the movie. I’ve never put a lot of stock in what reviewers say.
BTW, I loved National Treasure (impatiently waiting for NT2), and I’m an X-Men fan, too. :))
Julie, I agree that men of God could turn the movie into something positive.
This is a few years old and pertained to Farenheit 911, but it works for about anything:
*Said John Fithian, president of the National Association of Theatre Owners: “Any time any organization protests against a movie, they ensure that the movie will do better at the box office than it would have done otherwise. If they have any doubt about this, just ask Mel Gibson.” – copyright Reuters*
Since the Catholic church is protesting so adamantly about this movie (and they have all their records locked up tighter than fort knox) makes me wonder if maybe by accident or deduction if Dan Brown maybe hit a little too close to home in some of his ideas.Me thinketh that they doth protest too much.
(Yeah, RD can’t wait for the new X-men. I love Rogue(she’s my fav) and waiting to see how they incorporate Phoenix).
Yep, here in the USA we have the luxury of getting all worked up about whatever comes out of Hollywood.In other countries, people are just trying to keep their children alive for one more day.
Be thankful, daily.
Oh, and it’s FICTION.’Nuff said.
Post something interesting and get a load of s**t.
I find it ironic that Christian leaders are complaining about a book that describes the actions of a man named Jesus that is unsupported by any empirical evidence or contemporaneous historical accounts when the entire Christian religion is based on a similar book with a different ending.
There is no argument to this movie: it is fiction. Those who believe anything else ain’t worth listening to. They’re morons.
The religious zealots who preach otherwise are doing nothing more than attempting to fill their coffers. So what you got are greedy morons. Says a lot about religion don’t it.
Amen brother Walker!
…and RAMEN!
I’ve not read the book. No doubt the movie will fall short as movies often do. I hope someone who has read the book will review the movie for us.
Good posts Julie! I’ve not read Walkers link yet.
Hmmm let’s see. Movie full of blood and gore and beatings and Torture (”The Passion”. I did not see it) THat movie GOOD.
Movie that suggests that Christ may have been more human and lived something approaching a mortal life (wasn’t that the premise for God taking the form of a man?) That movie bad!
I guess some only approve of Christ in a movie if he looks like Max von Sydow(he didn’t) and uses the bible(written post mortem/ascension) for a script.
Says alot about hasty generalizations JM…
Walker…Contrary to famous movie quotes… greed is NOT good… not in government, not in business, and definately not in religion.By the way.. I thought your post was funny!
JR..The biggest problem I see with the book is it has a claim to be historically accurate, and it’s not even close. Even in fiction, if you use actual names and places, you should attempt to be more careful with the historical facts.
“hasty generalizations”
Nathan also gets meme points this morning!!!!!!
I have said that Christians shouldn’t make a big deal out of this movie or the book.
We should simply embrace it for what it is… a story of fiction.
We missed you at the meetup ksam.
I’m gonna be nice to you because you are not one of the zealots.
JR..”The biggest problem I see with the book is it has a claim to be historically accurate, and it’s not even close. Even in fiction, if you use actual names and places, you should attempt to be more careful with the historical facts.”
Just how historically documented as fact is the bible itself?
Sam, how do you KNOW it isn’t accurate history? That’s exactly why I find it fascinating. No offense, but your truth comes from one source. The premise that Jesus and Mary M were married and had a child is not a new idea. There have been many books written about it. I’m not saying I believe in it 100%, but I do think it’s a possibility. But then I think the same about the Bible. :)
And while we are on the subject of the high moral standards of the taliban, how is Ralph (I heart jack abramhoff) Reed doing in his effort to be the next lite gov of georgia? (note, bad language in the headline here)
http://www.talk2action.org/story/2006/5/18/15054/3433
I wonder what the WE “values boy” would have to say about the leader of the Christian Coalition and his embrace of ” a pro-choice, pro-gay, pro-gun control, divorced Catholic politician from New York who has confessed to having sex with his cousin on a regular basis over the course of 14 years?”
I’m sure he will have an ever so “fair and balanced” comment to make.
It is fantasy. I don’t think any one goes to a movie thinking, “I’m gonna learn something”. They just want to be entertained, maybe even to the point of “what if”…
Christian leaders are making too big a deal out of it, providing free publicity to a movie that is not very good, if early critical reviews are to be believed. Just the same, I will probably see it, or read the book, so that I can have a reasoned rebuttal ready, just in case.
JR & RD…I am talking about verifiable names and places. IMHO, archaology has supported the Biblical references that have been discovered so far. Brown’s book seems to have some historically verifiable inaccuracies.As far as the Jesus/Mary M thing goes… there is no way to verify that. My point would be.. theologically, it doesn’t really matter. Being married and having kids is not a sin.. although it would be really cool to find out Jesus was my great..great.. great.. great.. .. .. grandpa!!
As far as the whole Jesus on the cross, dying and rising from the dead thing, there is also no way to verify that. Christians are essentially upset that someone has created a new version of their favorite fairy tale.
THE BIBLE:
Written over a 1500 year span and forty generations.
Written by more than 40 authors varying from kings to peasants, fisherman to statesman, scholars to poets.
Written on three continents (Africa, Asia, Europe)
Written in three languages (Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic.)
Continuity throughout.
Sam, there has always been a question regarding the bachelorhood (if you will) of Jesus. But since the history you speak of is mostly word of mouth, written down by someone well after the “fact,” I tend to take everything with a grain of salt…including the premise presented in DVC.
If anyone has read Brown’s “prequel” to DVC, Angels & Demons, where Professor Robert Langdon is first introduced, you might understand DVC better.
A&D used the premise of the Illuminati still being active. I won’t mention the ending spoiler here, just in case anyone decides to read it, but I do recommend it, espcially if you like suspense and mind puzzles. That, in itself, is why I enjoyed DVC.
Oh, and by the way, Digital Fortress, another Dan Brown novel is about…(drumroll, please)…the NSA. ;)
RD,
When you mention being written well after the “fact”, which books of the Bible are you talking about?
The fact that the Bible exists does not prove that the story it presents is true. The Bible provides the same proof of the existence and actions of Jesus as Dan Brown’s book does for the existence of an albino Catholic hitman or DC Comics provides for the life and times of Superman. You can’t believe everything you read is an adage that works as well for the Bible as it does for a comic book.
Nathan, the Bible’s written in English, too.
You seem to be telling others what is or is not “The Bible” — or are you merely forgetting the Book of Mormon?
Continuity indeed. ;)
Flike,
The bible is translated to english. It was not originally written in it. I was speaking from the context of it beting written.
It seems when people here try to refer to the Bible they try to make it sound like one book written by one person retranslated over and over again with not one shred of credability beyond that of any fairy tale.
To try to make such a claim is completely going against the recognition of any truth what so ever.
I am not telling anyone what the Bible is. I am merely presenting some facts about it.
The book of Mormon is just that. It is not the Bible. It is the story of what happened on the North American Continent.
The Mormons dont put the two together. They are treated as seperate books and reffered to as such.
The Book of Mormon is not the Bible.
I grew up in Idaho and have many Mormon friends.
I will say it…
The Book of Mormon is NOT part of the Bible.The Book of Mormon is merely a history of the Mormon people.
Well, Nathan, you’re the Bible scholar, you tell me when the books were written. Weren’t the Gospels written at least 50 years AFTER the death of Jesus? And none of those men knew him or had ever seen him? Therefore, word of mouth.
And what happened to the Gnostic Gospels? Was it that they just didn’t jibe with others?
I’m not saying you shouldn’t believe, Nathan. That’s all a matter of choice. You CHOOSE your faith. “You” meaning everyone, of course. There’s nothing wrong with that. Just the same, there’s nothing wrong with me questioning things. It doesn’t hurt you, only me, if I believed as you do. Diversity makes the world go ’round, ya know. ;)
The BOM is not part of the Bible?
Jesus Christ shows up in the W hemisphere, it’s recorded in the BOM, and the New Testament is not informed by this event?
How the heck does that work?!?
Is this an unanimous opinion? Unanimous among Mormons?
I think I’m beginning to understand why control of Bible content is so important!
The Gospels were written 100-400 years after the death of Jesus by men that had been trained in the Greek style of writing that had never met or seen him themselves. The Gospels each tell a different account of the same events and many of the details of the stories are contradicted by the other Gospels. Most telling is that none of the Roman records of the time contain any mention of Jesus or his actions as described in the Bible and that many of the details of events (the call for a census, etc.) directly contradict the standard operating procedures known to have existed at the time. None of the stories contained in the Gospels can be verified by other historical texts and many forgeries have been discovered that were purported to prove the accuracy of the writings.
flike..Read up on Joseph Smith and then tell us that you trust everything he said. There has never been a single shred of evidence anywhere that the ancient civilization he described actually existed. Since he was the ONLY person ever to have this “Revelation”, there is nothing to support his claims.
Sam,The Mary Magdalene as wife of Jesus story (along with most of the other stuff in the DaVinci Code) has been around for centuries. If it were true, I’d think at least one of the Gospel writers ought to have mentioned it. Considering that we’ve got almost no information about his first thirty years, and that marriage was SOP for jewish men at the time, I might assume that at some point, he was married and possibly widowed in those lost years. To whom, and were there children? No way to know. As far as descendants, no way to know that, either. And why on earth should it make a difference? It’s about the message, not the messenger!
Jed”It’s about the message, not the messenger”
Keep talking….
kssam,
Are you sure you want to make phyical evidence the standard by which you judge revelations?
I doubt that you do.
Dan Brown was sued by Michael Baigent and Richard Leigh, who with Henry Lincoln wrote a “non-fiction” book called “The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail.” The authors claimed Brown plagiarized parts of this “non-fiction” in “The Da Vinci Code,” but it stands to reason that one cannot plagiarize non-fiction (that’s called a cite failure instead), one can only plagiarize fiction. Brown won the suit because of this very point; in dismissing the suit the judge called Baigent et al hucksters who wanted their cake and to eat it too. In other words, they wanted the public to think their book was non-fiction but they wanted to sue Brown as if it were fiction instead.
I think you guys had it right the first time: the Bible is a matter of faith, and once physical evidence is introduced then we change the rules from fiction to non.
The miracle of Christ will not stand up to non, it needs – it demands in fact – the power of fiction to support its only value: the faith it inspires.
Unfortunately for you, that means that you must employ a little moral relativism and exclude the BOM or you must stand the (gentle!) ridicule of those who point out that you cannot insist on non-fiction standards for a work of fiction like the Bible.
nathan – the Gospels were written long after the time of Christ. Genesis was DEFINITELY written long after the creation.
Flike,
Once again, Mormons do not consider the Book of Mormon to be the “Bible.”
Are you all of a sudden a spokesmand for the Mormons posistion which I don’t even think they take?
Why do you think it is called the “Book of Mormon?” If you are trying to say it is part of the “Bible?”
This is from the link on the Mormon website:
The Book of Mormon is another witness that Jesus Christ really lived, that He was and is God’s Son. It contains the writings of ancient prophets. One of these, Lehi, lived in Jerusalem around 600 B.C. God commanded Lehi to lead a small group of people to the American continent. There they became a great civilization.God continued to call prophets among these people. The Book of Mormon is a collection of the writings of their prophets and record keepers. It is named after Mormon, one of the last of these ancient prophets.
These prophets knew about Heavenly Father’s plan for His children and the mission of Jesus Christ. They recorded that Christ appeared, after His Resurrection, to the people in America, taught them His gospel, and formed His Church among them. The book contains the teachings of Jesus Christ, testifying of His Atonement and His love. It supports and verifies the Bible.
The Book of Mormon concludes with a great promise that those who read it and sincerely pray about it can know by the Holy Ghost that it is true (Moroni 10:4).
The link was even called:
How is the Book of Mormon different from the Bible
That is great Ben.
You have identified 5 books of the Bible.
4 of which you claim were written “long after.”
What is “long after” to you?
Where is the evidence that the stories depicted in the Bible are true? Has anyone ever seen any evidence of the virgin birth, the reanimation of a dead guy, walking on water, water to wine, etc. Is there any evidence of the Biblical Kingdom of Heaven? How about Hell or Satan? What makes the Book of Mormon any less truthful than the Bible?
Scott,
You start with the most obvious places to question the Bible.
It is fairly obvious that you have a bias agaist it.
Lets look at some other obvious things to consider here:
Did you see or witness anything in history past the time you were born?
No. Niether did I.
If you want to discuss this then we need to look at this as we would judge any history book.
Lets look at the Archaeology, the writers, the authenticity of the writings, the dates of the writings…etc.
As of now all we have is you saying that superman comics are just as valid as the Bible which is as far from the truth as you could get let alone not even close to a fair assessment.
Comics are written as entertainment, purposefully made up, and not claimed to be real.
The Bible was written as a historical document of God’s people and the fortelling of Christ, Christs coming, and a message of hope to everyone for the future of what Christ had done for them.
It was not written for entertainment, it was not claimed to be purposefully made up, and it is claimed to be the truth.
It was written by 40 different people over 1500 years. It has 66 books.
Scott darlin’ sometimes you just gotta have faith. Depending on one’s faith depends on if BOM is “believable”.If you saw a one-eyed, one-horned flying purple people eater this morning and you were the only one who saw this creature then did you really see it? Nobody can back you up.It all boils down to faith.
48 COMMENTS LATER…………The movie is STILL FICTION.
Everything else being dicussed is part of a circular (never ending) argument about nothing.
Religion should be an inward looking spiritual journey, not a never ending “he said–she said” battle.
a century or so in the case of the gospels; longer in the case of Genesis. Probably also a long time in the case of the rest of the Pentateuch. Main point is that the writers were not there at the events described.
Scott, you are misinformed.
Let’s talk about the authors of the Gospels. Matthew, also known as Levi and one of the twelve disciples was author of the first gospel (Matthew).
John Mark, a companion of Peter was the author of the gospel known as “Mark”. Luke, known as Paul’s “beloved physician” wrote both the “gospel of Luke” and “Acts”. The “gospel of John” is generally credited by scholars to John the apostle. There is also a reference in writings to John the elder although they may be the same person. These were all contempories of Jesus.
It isn’t easy confirming details of events 2,000 years past, but the Bible has stood up to historical analysis better than any other ancient writing.
Nathan, I believe 3 Nelphi of the BOM discusses Christ’s visit to South America.
Why is the New Testament not informed of this good news?
The most reliable dates for the appearance of the gospels are Mark in the early 70s, Matthew and Luke in the 90s, and John about 120. The gospel authors are clearly not the apostles for numerous reasons. First and foremost are the dates of the latter gospels. John would have been about 110 years old. Further, the gospels contain gross errors of geography and history that no contemporary Jew of Jesus’ time would have made. Third, the fact that entire sections of Matthew, Luke, and John, are identical, word for word, indicates that these gentlemen were not the authors of much of what they wrote..they merely transcribed from an earlier document and embellished certain parts.
The reviews of the movie have not been great; the book was a page turner for me.
It is fiction as others have pointed out.
Brian: I have to disagree with those dates. Even among liberal scholars, the ballpark dates are Mark in the 70’s, Matthew and Luke in the 80’s and John in the 90’s. There are indications of earlier dates that would take too long to set out in this forum. But like you, I’m getting that from sources I deem authoritative.
Also, many, if not all, of those alleged errors in geography and history have been proven not to be in error by archeological finds and studies. Remember, we are talking 2,000 years ago.
Many books have been written by people a lot smarter than I am on this subject, so I think it would be rather useless to debate a subject like the reliability of the Bible in our little forum.
One of the History channels has some interesting programing about Biblical Archeoligy. Of course, it doesn’t cover personal and day to day issues, but there is a lot of back up for what’s written in the Bible. We know the Great Temple existed…the foundations are still there to see. We know that something happened to Jericho at about the right time that made the walls fall down. We know there really was a Herod. There are a lot of things in the Bible that can be proven historically.
Nathan said:”The Bible was written as a historical document of God’s people and the fortelling of Christ, Christs coming, and a message of hope to everyone for the future of what Christ had done for them.”
Nathan is right. The Bible is a message of hope for those of us who follow it’s teachings. If I’m wrong (and I’m not), I loose nothing in my faith. If I’m right, those who don’t believe lose the key to the Kingdom of Heaven.
That’s ok, XXX. As Mark Twain noted, “Go to heaven for the climate, to hell for the company.”
Nathan, Outlander, et al
You seem to be missing my point entirely. The fact that the Bible exists does not prove that Jesus did, and there are no other historical writings that can provide support for the existence of Jesus or the stories of his life. As far as the Bible being written as entertainment, that may be true, but its purpose was to provide support for the growth and spread of the Christian religion by men that had an emotional and financial interest in making Jesus seem special compared to the millions of ordinary Jews alive at the same time. There is no record of any of the activities described in the Bible in any of the Jewish or Roman literature of the time and scholars have proven that there was a concerted effort by Christians to produce forged documents proving the existence of Christ as depicted in the Bible. The fact is that outside the Bible and other Christian texts there is no proof that Jesus even existed, much less the whole son of god, waking the dead crap. I can find hundreds of books that describe the actions of a group of mystical people with magical powers that were part of an epic struggle between good and evil. However, not a single one of them can be used as a basis for claiming that the Jedi really exist, not now or centuries in the future.
Well, I wan’t going to debate anymore, but…Scott,I am afraid that you are mis-informed again. The Jewish historian Josephus, born in 37 AD mentions “Jesus, who was called the Christ” in his writings.
The Roman historian Tacitus mentions that in 115 AD that Nero persecuted the Christians to divert suspicion from himself regarding the fire that devasted Rome in 64 AD. He makes other references as well.
Again, I only know this from my reading but I think that it should be brought out when someone misrepresents the facts. You can believe what you want Scott, but the Bible is very well corroborated for an ancient writing, as is Jesus as a historical figure.
Scott – i agree with Outlander that Josephus and other historians of that time referred to the existence of Jesus. Whether he perfomed all those miracles, etc, is a question however. Everything I have seen indicates that the Gospels were written by people who did not know him; also Saul never did (other than his claimed vision)
Scott,There is no question Jesus existed. The prophet Mohammad wrote about him. There are references to Jesus not contained in the Bible. The only thing in question is whether he was the son of God. Whoever he was, he left a legacy defined by holy works. The bible is that legacy.
I started reading Dan Brown long before DVC. I have always enjoyed his books, but I am also aware they are fiction. My mom, who was a devout Catholic, read DVC and loved it. She also couldn’t understand how people could confuse fact with fiction, but then again, she also could not understand the arguments for creationism. She was a very intelligent woman.
The supposed reference to Christ by Josephus is a well known fraud. Scholars have determined that the references to Jesus and Christ found in the writings of Josephus and other Jewish and Roman writers of the time were forgeries added centuries later by Christians attempting to create evidence of the existence of the Jesus from the Bible. It would also be meaningless if it wasn’t a fake because Jesus was a very common name of the time and there was no shortage of people claiming that they were the Messiah or Christ. Why is there not one single documented Roman or Jewish text that mentions the execution of the leader of a subversive movement claiming to be the son of god and king of the Jews? Based on the depictions of Jesus and his activities, it would have been impossible for one of the many writers of the time not to have mentioned him and his followers even once. The only mentions of Jesus as a religious leader who claimed divinity occur centuries later by writers that had no firsthand knowledge of the region or the events that they wrote about. IMO, the Bible is a work of fiction that is very closely related to the Greek and Roman writings regarding Zeus and the hundreds of other gods.
Scott,Drive down the street of any town and tell me what you will see. Probably a church, probably several. Now you are telling us that Christ’s church is found everywhere.. but it’s founder never existed? Tell me this… would you die for a big lie? The apostles and many disciples were killed for their faith.. they were there.. they KNEW the truth. So if what you are saying was true… they all died for what they knew was a lie. I really have a hard time believing that! If it has no foundation, how has Christianity survived? Not only Christians recognize Jesus.. so do the Jews and the Muslims.
Out of respect for the more faithful among my fellow posters, I’ve held back a little on this most recent religious thread.
Meaning no offense, the comparison of the bible to a Superman comic is for some of us very relevant and descriptive.
Some of the more stridently and activist faithful might want to consider how they would feel if their lifestyle or lack of faith in Superman was found not in line with that comic book.
I don’t get what is so hard to understand. The existence of the Bible and churches in no way proves the existence of a man named Jesus let alone the tales of miracles and his failed execution. While I have no doubt that people believed strongly enough to die, it is still not proof that any of it was true. You cannot use the accounts of the Bible to prove that the Bible is true.
Scott…Your logic is messed up… that means you can use no historical documents to verify that anyone ever existed. All of man’s history is a myth! You will not accept any of the normal methods of validating the autheticity of ancient documents. The problem is that you are not prepared to accept ANY evidence that is not in line with your predispositions. That’s OK Scott, but just admit it. All of your arguments can be found on atheist/agnostic web sites, it’s nothing new, and my arguments are nothing new. Fact is.. if you choose not to believe, only the Lord himself can change that!
Flike, good points on the lawsuit, but I’m adding a correction. The suit was not against Brown, but against his publisher, which just happened to be the same publisher of HBHG. Brown was only called to testify. Yeah, it was a grab by two of the guys who co-authored HBHG. It definitely increased sales of the book which has been out for quite some time, too.
HBHG is considered non-fiction, therefore the information in it can be used in a fictional story. If it couldn’t, most every author and/or publisher of fiction could be sued.
Plagiarism is defined as lifting the words of others and using it as your own. For instance, remember when you were a kid and copied stuff out of the encyclopedia for a paper, word for word? That’s plagiarism. I’ve seen it done on a large scale. Best-selling and well-known romance author Janet Dailey plagiarized some of the works of equally best-selling, yada yada Nora Roberts. I even have the books for comparison. Janet was found guilty in a court of law back in 1997 or 1998 for that.
With that in mind, an IDEA cannot be plagiarized. Give 2 people the same premise, and each will create their own story with different words and different (what we call) “voice.” Ideas, on their own, cannot be copyrighted. The same goes for most book and music titles. Only the words of the book and the lyrics of the song are copyrighted.
Also note that Brown mentioned HBHG in his book as part of known research the character had done. Hey, it’s what sent me out to buy HBHG. :)
“If I’m right, those who don’t believe lose the key to the Kingdom of Heaven.”
I expect something like this from Hank and Nathan, but not from you, XXX. I guess we’re back to the old “if you don’t believe, NO MATTER WHAT, you’ll go to Hell.”
Bah, humbug.
“If I’m wrong (and I’m not), I loose nothing in my faith. If I’m right, those who don’t believe lose the key to the Kingdom of Heaven.”
RD,I thought this was perfectly logical. And I generally try to avoid debates/arguments about matters of faith.
RD, show me anywhere in my post where I said anything about anybody going to Hell. I have questions about the concept of Hell and what that means, anyway.
“I guess we’re back to the old “if you don’t believe, NO MATTER WHAT, you’ll go to Hell.”
You’ll feel better after you feed a couple of Christians to the lions.
Multitudes are escaping hell, south of the border, and will be NEW American citizens. This is all thanks to President Bush. Praise this great man! We all feel saved by his smart actions to give us all amnesty. We will be the same as you now. Praise the president in charge.
Sorry, DD, logic is escaping me today. I admit it. I’ll stick with DVC and refrain from the religious discussion.
Jewish objectives as outlined in Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion:
1) Banish God from the heavens and Christianity from the earth.
2) Allow no private ownership of property or business.
3) Abolish marriage, family and home. Encourage sexual promiscuity, homosexuality, adultery, and fornication.
4) Completely destroy the sovereignty of all nations and every feeling or expression of patriotism.
5) Establish a one-world government through which the Luciferian Illuminati elite can rule the world. All other objectives are secondary to this one supreme purpose.
6) Take the education of children completely away from the parents. Cunningly and subtly lead the people thinking that compulsory school attendance laws are absolutely necessary to prevent illiteracy and to prepare children for better positions and life’s responsibilities. Then after the children are forced to attend the schools get control of normal schools and teacher’s colleges and also the writing and selection of all text books.
7) Take all prayer and Bible instruction out of the schools and introduce pornography, vulgarity, and courses in sex. If we can make one generation of any nation immoral and sexy, we can take that nation.
8) Completely destroy every thought of patriotism, national sovereignty, individualism, and a private competitive enterprise system.
9) Circulate vulgar, pornographic literature and pictures and encourage the unrestricted sale and general use of alcoholic beverage and drugs to weaken and corrupt the youth.
10) Foment, precipitate and finance large scale wars to emasculate and bankrupt the nations and thereby force them into a one-world government.
11) Secretly infiltrate and control colleges, universities, labor unions, political parties, churches, patriotic organizations, and governments. These are direct quotes from their own writings (The Conflict of the Ages, by Clemens Gaebelein pp. 100-102).
12) The creation of a World Government.
CT
XXX, I’m fresh out of lions today. I apologize for my comment. It was uncalled for. You just pushed one of my hot buttons, and it’s been a stressful couple of days.
I’ll file your comment with this old saying/joke. Two men are arguing about a religious point and finally one says to the other, “Well, when you get to heaven, you can ask God.” After a pregnant pause he adds, “And if you don’t make it, I’ll ask.”
Truce?
No problem, RD.
I’ve held back a bit more than I usually do on religious threads with this one out of consideration for SOME of the faithful among posters here.
It is worth noting though that the comparison of the bible to a Superman comic mentioned upthread is for some of us a very valid one.
I do not understand people their faith. I see their bible as they would see a Superman comic. Their faith in it just escapes me I guess.
No one (to my knowledge) uses a Superman comic book to marginalize others or judge the way they live or believe or condemn them for not beleiving.
There are those who use the bible for that.
I mention this only so that those who do think the bible a holy or god sent thing stop and think twice about passing judgement on those of us who do not. Probably a waste of time I guess. Those who would think twice just because I asked probably already do. To them I’m just “lost”.
Those who don’t already think twice won’t. To them, I’m bad.
Loved the book. After I read it I read ‘Angels and Demons’ and then I read it again!
Wasn’t too interested in the movie until all of the critics started downing it. Anything the critics slam is worth a look.
Anyone that enjoyed the DVC would also enjoy reading “The Name of the Rose”. That was another book that in my opinion was much better than the movie.
One of my hobbies is collecting antique religious books. I have many very old reference books in my library. When I read a book like DVG I find it interesting to research some of the ‘facts’. Dan Brown is a masterful story teller. He can seamlessly weave fact and fiction together to tell his tale. There is quite a bit in the DVC that is based on fact!
Hank
Again JR, If you missed it…
Comics are written as fiction to be fiction.
Show me where the author of Superman claims that it is a story of truth?
Comics are written to entertain.
Comics are written not as historical documents… at least not most.
You can compare the Bible to a comic all you want, but you have to ignore any kind of factual assessment to the validity of the Bible to do it.
I cannot say this better. So I again turn to a greater and better spoken MAN.
Religion”Many a long dispute among divines may be thus abridged: It is so; It is not so. It is so; it is not so.”Benjamin FranklinSource:Poor Richard’s Almanack, 1743″The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.”Benjamin FranklinSource:Poor Richard’s Almanack, 1758″Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.”Benjamin Franklin”He [the Rev. Mr. Whitefield] used, indeed, sometimes to pray for my conversion, but never had the satisfaction of believing that his prayers were heard.” Benjamin FranklinSource:from Franklin’s Autobiography
All of the above and my last about a movie about Jesus.
It IS a movie about Jesus. I’d think no faithful person could quarrel with it.
RELIGIOUS folks are another matter.
“If I’m wrong (and I’m not), I loose nothing in my faith. If I’m right, those who don’t believe lose the key to the Kingdom of Heaven.”
RD,I thought this was perfectly logical. And I generally try to avoid debates/arguments about matters of faith.**********************************
I have, since college, thought that:athetists = faith that God does not existbelievers = faith that God does existagnostics = uncertain if God exists or not;
I have a hard time with faith. This is a constant consternation for my poor catholic spouse. In fact, being married to me, in the strictest version of her faith, condemns her to Hell.
But the truth is, for me, I still have a hard time in making the step up for faith.
I don’t “know” the answer. For those of you, who think you do, consider yourselves lucky (or, maybe cursed), I guess.
I, like my poor disrespected nic, Charles Darwin, am uncertain of the ultimate truth.
Good night and good luck.
Wow, Hank!
“Dan Brown is a masterful story teller.”
I’ve seen readers who disagree. Not me, and not you. Cool.
“He can seamlessly weave fact and fiction together to tell his tale.”
Perfectly phrased, Hank!
“There is quite a bit in the DVC that is based on fact!”
Yes, there is. Or at least fact as some know it. ;) Just teasing.
Hank, I’m glad we found some common ground. Sooner or later it was bound to happen. :) I’ve read Angels & Demons twice, too. I almost like it a little better than Da Vinci.
Have you read Deception Point? I thought I’d bought it, but I can’t find it. Just wondering if it’s good.
My plans are to see DVC sometime this coming Sunday before the prices go up. (Yeah, I’m cheap.) I’m curious to hear what others who see it have to say. Shoot, I’m curious to see how well (or not) the movie paralells the book.
DD, many atheists will argue that atheism is not a faith, but a lack of faith, instead. Are they right? I don’t know. I’m not an atheist, nor am I agnostic, though I once thought I was the latter. That said, I believe faith is a personal and private matter, so I’ll keep mine to myself, if that’s okay.
Note: Christianity is the only religion that proselytizes.
RD,
I hate to break it to you, but Christianity is not the only religion that proselytizes…
I knew that would bring you out, Nathan. :)
Okay, I’ll admit I was wrong when proven so. What other religions proselytize?
RD..Jehovah Witnesses , Mormons, radical Muslims to name a few.Is soliciting donations proselytizing? If so, you can count groups like the Pranayama’s. By definition of proselytizing and witness of the WE BLOG, I would say that even some “atheists” are doing it! It’s a pretty loosely defined word.
Let me say this much about proselytizing.. your comment about faith being personal and private is true. We were never sent out to beat people up or force them to become Christians. We were sent to draw people to Christ through fruits of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control) and a life well lived. If we are following Christ in that way, then we are proselytizing in the most effective way!
This thing will never end.That’s enough.Back to work, all you gov’t employees.
“Tell me this… would you die for a big lie?”
Uh…soldiers in Iraq do this everyday. You only have to believe the lie to die for it. seems like there is always someone willing to believe a lie, especially if it is told often enough.
I mean seventy percent of kansans believed that putting hate into the constitution would save straight marriage. THAT is a whopper that was swallowed whole. Like a record perch.
People in kansas are skilled at believeing six impossible things before breakfast. Why should religion be different?
Is your marriage better off since april 05?
kansassam, good try.
Proselytize -v. intr.To induce someone to convert to one’s own religious faith.
First, Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons are part of the Christian faith.
Second, I’m confused about why you believe radical Muslims should be counted. If you’re referring to acts of terrorism, I don’t think that can be counted. After all, if they kill me, it makes it really hard to convert me.
Try again?
BTW…
“We were never sent out to beat people up or force them to become Christians. We were sent to draw people to Christ through fruits of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control) and a life well lived.”
How is that working for you all?
I know it doesnt work worth a DAMN for those of us observing you oh so pious folks showing us how christian you are.
You know, like brenda, bonbon, cheney, mays, all those swearing public officials. Yep, I want my kids growing up JUST LIKE THEM.
Oops, forgot about Pranayamas, but you’re really reaching with that one. I can only guess you mention them because of Yoga and/or meditation. Is there another reason?
RD…You inserted the word “religious” , that was not in my definition.
Merriam-Webster
Main Entry: pros·e·ly·tizePronunciation: ‘prä-s(&-)l&-”tIzFunction: verbInflected Form(s): -tized; -tiz·ingintransitive senses1 : to induce someone to convert to one’s faith2 : to recruit someone to join one’s party, institution, or causetransitive senses : to recruit or convert especially to a new faith, institution, or cause
“First, Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons are part of the Christian faith.”No…. they aren’t. But that’s another debate.
“Second, I’m confused about why you believe radical Muslims should be counted.”Go to Iran and speak out against Islam and see if they don’t try to convert you.. if you live that long.”Oops, forgot about Pranayamas, but you’re really reaching with that one. I can only guess you mention them because of Yoga and/or meditation. Is there another reason?”Go to their web site and see if they are not trying to get you to join them… or at least send a donation.
farmgrrl…As a pastafarian… would you die before denouncing your faith in the Flying Spaghetti Monster?That is different than dying for your country.
BTW… it is working GREAT for me.. since you have NEVER observed me, then you should reserve your hasty judgement.If you WANT to observe me.. come to the Festival tonight.. we will be wandering about Stoner Hill loving on people and passing out free water to the folks hanging around.
Sam,”We were never sent out to beat people up or force them to become Christians. We were sent to draw people to Christ through fruits of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control) and a life well lived.”This happened quite a few years ago, and was winessed by friends of mine, a lesbian couple.A well-known minister and president of a bible college in their town (you’d recognize the family name) incited and led a mob that burned down a house occupied by two men who, according to rumor, were gay. The men were in the house, and both died in the fire. Afterward, the minister praised the mob for doing God’s work in cleansing their town. No one was ever arrested or prosecuted.This act so intimidated my friends that they moved to separate houses to conceal their relationship, which lasted until they died, almost 60 years later. 60 years of fear was the legacy of that form of christianity, and many similarly brutal acts against gays, and others that various churches took issue with, have confirmed that fear as very real.Is this the true face of christianity? I hope not, but it seems more and more visible every day.
As a practicing Pastafarian, I would die for his noodleness al dente. Pass the parmesan.
Hi Jed..Unfortunately.. many churches have been hijacked by that kind of thinking. I can apologize for them, but it is a hollow thing unless we can get them to change. Our movement is to TRY and be “Christlike”, (see Fruits of the Spirit) in my other post, and do what we believe we were really called to do. It is a long process, but some of the churches are seeing what we are doing as good…. others (I won’t name them) see us as a threat!
Jed, Jed, Jed… Another from your collection of anti-Christian stories. Second hand no less this time. And back at least 60 years. Relevancy please!
I think somethin like 33% of the world claims to be Christian.
Are all of them perfect? Of course not.
Does Jed find any bad example he can to make Christians look bad? Yeah.
There are many many good things Christians do too. Sorry that we are not all perfect examples of Christ, it is a struggle since no one can be perfect.
I would encourage you to look at the teachings of Christ instead of trying to find fault with people who claim to be his followers.
RD,
There are sects of Islam that also proselytize in Africa.
kansassam, I believe that you are incorrect: Mormons (Latter-day Saints) and J Witnesses both represent Christian sects. As do Catholics, Presbyterians, Southern Baptists, and Jews for Jesus.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_deno.htm
Flike,
We have yet to agree on the validity of the Bible as anything more than a comic book and now you want to try and have a discussion on whether Mormons and Jehova’s Witnesses are Christians?
Sigh…
This is like debating about what is the best Jelly Belly flavor in the candy store when you don’t even think Jelly Bellys should be sold in the candy store…
On top of that, you don’t even seem to know what the Book of Mormon is and now you want to talk about if they are Christians?
Sigh…
Can we stick to one discussion at a time?
Do you still claim that the Book of Mormon is the Bible when the Mormons don’t even claim that?
As usual, Nathan, you are confused. In this case, I believe you have confused me with JR.
Consistency indeed!
No flike, I know it was JR.
Are you admitting that the Bible has more validity than a comic book or fairy tale?
I am claiming that JW’s and Mormons are Christians.
flike,
Witnesses and Mormons do not believe in the same Jesus that I do.
http://www.carm.org/jw/nutshell.htm
Mormons do not believe Jesus is Son of God and they believe that they will become god’s through their works.
Who cares if the stories depicted in the old testament was written ex pro facto? Were you unaware that those old testament stories were passed down through oral tradition through the centuries and is the literary history of the Jewish people? Many people forget that the Christian religion is based on Judaism and expands into it’s own but not wholely separate theology.
Then you meant to write that Witnesses and Mormons do not believe in the same Jesus that you do.
You were mistaken when you wrote that they are not Christians.
flike…no.. I wasn’t.
Flike,
If you want to have a serious discussion about this I think it only fair that we know what it is you do accept and believe.
Because, if you want to debate whether or not Mormons and Jehova’s Witnesses are Christians or not we will have to use the Bible.
So far, you have shown that you not only don’t seem to know what the Bible is you don’t agree with what it says anyhow.
Now how are we supposed to have a real discussion with you about Christians when you don’t even accept the Bible?
I could be wrong. Do you accept the Bible as valid or no?
Otherwise any discussion with you on who is and who is not a Christian is kind of pointless when you don’t even accept the standard by wich someone would be found to be a Christian or not.
Which brings me to another point: There are many Christians of particular sects who do not classify other Christ-worshippers as Christians. This is either through disagreements over content of scripture, salvation history, theology, but for the most part methods of worship and religious practices.
kssam, you were incorrect about both, or just Witnesses?
Crusaderx…Or the fact that they do not get their authority from the Christ of the Bible, but have created their own man-made Jesus to suit their own purposes.
sam, sorry, that should say “I am incorrect,” not you.
So I am incorrect that both sects are not true Christians, or just the Witnesses?
Flike,
Almost every single Christian denomination besides Mormons don’t believe that Mormons are Christians…
There is a reason for that.
Of course we would have to look at doctrine and what the Bible says.
Sigh,
People die for concepts and truths personally important to them all the time. The actions of today’s suicide bombers is an indication of the pliancy of the human mind when it comes to beliefs along with the persuasive power of peer pressure.
Further, we must not view the first 1600 years CE in the same light as the last 400. Until the scientific revolution, people commonly ascribed the workings of the world to miracles, elves, sprites, demons, angels, ogres, witches, and other such nonsense. It is quite amazing to me that these concepts persist in the minds of many even today.
With regard to the argument that a mistaken belief cannot survive for thousands of years, and so the length of time that the Christian Church has endured points to the truth of its inherent beliefs, I would simply point out that Christianity is a relative “youngster”. The ancient Egyptian mythology persisted for at least 3,000 years before it faded away – 1,000+ years longer than Christianity. Yet I don’t think anyone would claim today that this “proves” the truth or validity of that spiritual system.
IMHO, every religion, especially those in the Abrahamic religious tradition, would be wise to adopt a far humbler and less dogmatic view of their particular ‘faith’. Nathan is constantly trying to pigeonhole Christianity into a set of dogmatic beliefs even though there are SO many Christian sects who believe things very specific to them. I would counter that a far better definition of Christianity is the search for the nature of the divine by concentrating on the relationship of Jesus and his teachings to God. By extension, Islam is the search for the nature of the divine with an emphasis on the relationship of Muhammad and his teachings to God. By extension, (filll in your belief system here) is the search for the nature of the universal or divine essence by focusng upon (put your spiritual leader or belief system here).
The point is…all are searching for the true and UNIVERSAL nature of the divine, but by focusing upon different aspects of the infinitude and UN-KNOWableness of tat divine entity.
Therefore, every person of faith should continue their search for divine meaning through their own choice of focus (Jesus, Muhammad, Baha’u'allah, etc), but they should recognize that others are seeking the same thing as they are but by a different route. All should SHARE the revelations they have come to through their particular focus and in turn, HELP others develop a clearer and more accurate picture of the TRUTH of the divine essence. After all, everyone is seeking the same thing…in the end there should be a CONVERGENCE of thought, at least on certain aspects of this UN_KNOWable, immanent, essence that is the source of BE-ing.
Spoken like a true unitarian.
The only thing missing was maybe an analogy about us all being spokes on a wheel…
Interesting argument, kansassam: creating attributes of Jesus that are not in the Bible disqualifies one as a Christian.
It seems to me that if one could show that certain descriptions of Christ or his actions, recorded in the Bible, are man-made, then one could – if one had sufficient political power – force the believer to shed extra beliefs and conform or, if the believer refuses, disqualify or shun the believer.
Have either of these groups used these extra attributes to do any harm?
Like I said…
Debating the best jelly belly flavor when you think jelly bellys should not be made and don’t even like them…
And after all it IS about UNITY nathan..a point that seems to evade you. I guess there’s some emotional ejaculation for you believing you are saved and everyone else who doesn’t think lie you is damned. I only HOPE that Jesus exists to damn you for the way you’ve distorted the message by mixing it up with the beliefs put forward by those with their own agenda in Jesus’ name.
flike..I am more familiar with Mormon’s because I have been at the receiving end of their prersecution of Christians. Yet, they want to appear to be Christians to draw Christians away to Mormonism. I just suggest you Google “Mormon Beliefs” and “Jehovah Witnesses” and see what it has to say. I will admit that the Witnesses are much closer than the Mormon’s on who Jesus is.
Brian,
If you even had a foundation for what you did believe I might be witty enough to attack you on it…
It’d be a first !! ;-}
witty…that is :-}}
Well, it seems that mere persecution can now disqualify whole sects as Christian.
I am not sure what the Spanish inquisition would have to say about that, frankly. Probably not anything good.
And surely the Inquisitors, if they repented and accepted Christ as their savior, are now in heaven and at Christ’s feet, no?
Sam,
Do you see what is happening now?
By engaging in a discussion with flike when he refuses to even adhere to one fo the most basic premises (The Bible) of Christianity this is what happens…
Brian: Once again, there you are, in the middle of a discussion about faith. Even doing a little preaching about what people of faith should do. If you hadn’t told us you were an atheist, I wouldn’t have thought it. Maybe a a part of you realizes the folly.
Just an observation.
You have to look at what they believe flike. They don’t believe what all other Christians do. You can’t make this stuff up.. Christians are defined in the Bible.
BTW… read up on Witnesses and shunning…
and about the Inquisitors.. if they truly did so, the answer is yes. Christianity is based on grace, not works, or we would all be condemned.
Outlander,
Again I will point out to you the silliness of that argument. Are you saying I HAVE to believe in something to discuss it? How, by that reasoning, can I be at odds with anything since, by your reasoning, my being at odds with it disqualifies my discussion of it. Sheesh.
By that line of reasoning then I’d say no lay person without a PhD in evolutionary biology, or an associated field for example, has any right to express an contradictory opinion on the subject of common descent, no matter how well-informed they are about the theory’s shortcomings.
Nathan…It is common that those not of faith do not really understand the foundations of Christendom. It is better to explain it to them… or at least try before you kick the dust off of your sandals! You never know when a light might come on.I feel like flike has valid questions… as for Brian, he KNOWS what the Bible says.
The tribalism is just incredible.
Thanks for your reasoned responses, kansassam. I apologize for any unnecessary flippancy.
I think you start down a slippery slope when you begin a rigorous definition of who is and who is not a Christian. In fact, I think the slope is defined less by the Bible, which is not, cannot be, perfect than that the slope I claim you’ve begun down is defined by moral relativism. In other words, your definition of Christ and and theirs is relative to an unobjective source, the Bible.
I do not think that you are justified in denying these sects their Christianity based on their only slightly different beliefs in Christ.
Anyway, thanks again for the reasoned responses.
Back to the grindstone…
Sam,
I just encourage you to set up some boundaries and accepted evidence first.
It is kind of pointless to try to engage in a discussion with someone on the technicalities of what constitutes a Christian when you need to use the Bible to do it.
Has flike said what he thinks of the Bible yet?
It is like debating about how the Bible is accused of not knowing what Pi is with someone that thinks the Bible is little more than a fairy tale.
Lets start with building a foundation with asking questions.
Flike, what do you know about the Bible? What is your opinion of it?
Flike do you believe that Jesus is the son of God?
Flike do you believe Jesus existed?
Otherwise it is just a debate on semantics… with someone who has no genuine interest in learning just finding some hole to prod at you with.
Ah, see my point now?
What are the defining factors that make one sect Christian versus non-Christian?
Christian Yes or No
Catholics?Baptists?LDS/Mormons?Jehovah’s Witness?Lutherans?Methodists?
First off, we need to look at this in context.
There are many levels of different denominations viewing others as non-Chriistians for many reasons based on both dogma and scripture.
Ultimately, being Christian, is defined by your faith in Christ and following his teachings.
TY, Sam,
back atcha. Your actions prove that you know the WORD, and your faith in the WORD compels you to act in its name. You’re a far better Christian than I ever was. Despite the differences in viewpoint, the goal is the same…in your words (so as not to ire Outlander)..to help to bring the kingdom of God to fruition here on earth.
If the only factor is a belief in Jesus and his teachings why are members of LDS, JW and Catholics not considered Christians by many other sects?
What is it that they are doing incorrectly according to the other denominations?
As a Catholic, I have often wondered why I am considered non-Christian by many evangelical Protestants.
Shane,
Because of the collective memory of these Protestants over the wars of religion in Europe almost half a millenia ago.
You’re enslaved to popery, you do not accept the literal truth of the words in the Bible, you hold tradition as co-equal to the written word.
You and they persecuted, killed, maimed, forcibly relocated people in the name of what you believe.
It has nothing to do with the goals of Christianity. It has to do with evening the score.
Evangelical Protestants and fundamentalist Muslims are a lot alike in that way. The Protestants are still fighting the catholic Church over their ‘religious crusades’ centuries ago, and the Muslims are still pissed at Christians (there were only Roman and Orthodox catholics then) for the ‘religious crusades’ in the Middle east. Give it up, for Christ’s sake.
Dear Brian,
As a Christian, I’m not searching for anything, It has found me!
Hank
Hank,
How special.
Out,Having been around for a while, and having involvement with groups that some of you consider sinful, such as volunteering to escort women past howling mobs of christians at abortion clinics, and having had many gay and lesbian friends my whole life (the women mentioned in the previous post were friends from my earliest memories until their deaths a few years ago), I have seen quite a bit of the dark side of christianity, and heard many horror stories about it from my friends. I know people who, as gay teens, were counselled by their ministers to commit suicide. I know a young woman, a lesbian, who was told by four men who cornered her, that she was “an abomination before the lord” before they gang raped her. I’ve lost friends to gay-bashing that churches gave tacit permission for.This comes from a lifetime of keeping my eyes and ears open as much as possible. I know there are good people who are christian. I know some of them, same as I know good people who are Jewish, Muslim, Wiccan, Ba’Hai, and atheist. They would be good people whatever their religious preference, just as the awful examples of humanity would be just as awful in any religion. My objection is that too many of the awful ones seem to be gaining power in leadership roles in too many churches lately, and are preaching a religion of hate and prejudice that seems far removed from the image christianity tries to project. All I’m doing is pointing out that hypocrisy.
Shane,
JW do not accept the divinity of Christ nor are they baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Ditto LDS..but for different beliefs.
Most “Christian” Churches will accept others into the fold as ‘Christians’ if they have been baptized in the name of a triune God and if they accept other generl Christian formulations.
It was not I who originally compared the bible to a comic book. I forget who did that. Doesn’t matter. I merely said that it was a valid comparison. And it is.
I could sit here and poke holes in Christianity all day. I won’t. Brian is better at it and more qualified.
I’ve read tracts of the bible. Recently I made the decision to read the whole thing. By the time I got to page 5 alot of it didn’t make sense.
Out of sensiblilty and respect for the more respectable people of faith who post here, I’ll not attack further.
I will say again that just as Superman is to all a fictional work; to some the bible is the same. Food for thought before you use it to judge others or tell them how to live, who to love, what to think. There’s been enough of that.
Shane,I have many Catholic friends.. and I truly believe through discussions that they are saved. I could not say that Catholics are not Christian… you definately believe the same things about Jesus that I do (I assume). I do have problems with doctrine, but in matters of the heart, it comes down to grace and dependence on the Jesus of the Bible. I know the Catholic Bible has more books, but I am not familiar with them, so I cannot address what they say.Mormon’s base their beliefs on modern day “prophets” that constantly change, and they can become like God through good works. The Witnesses believe that Christ already returned, which maybe doesn’t exclude them, but they see the ‘rest’ of us Christians as lost.Shane, I hope you will study the Bible and don’t just depend on what some ‘priest’ tells you, or what I tell you. You have to let God lead you in what to believe.
JR,
Once again…and again…and again…
Why was a comic written?
Is superman claimed to be true?
Is the superman comic claimed to be a work of history?
JR,
Once again…and again…and again…
Why was a comic written?
Is superman claimed to be true?
Is the superman comic claimed to be a work of history?
Nathan,
Take the blinders off. Not EVERYONE claims the Bible is true down to the last iota. It is a mixture of fact, fiction, folklore, history, theology, music, poetry, etc. It’s true to the same extent that the da Vinci code includes certain historical facts in what otherwise is a work that is not completely true and reliable.
Brian: My analogy would be this: Say I don’t believe in the evolution. Why would be I join in a debate about how evolution took place?
As I have mentioned before, I have found you a well-informed, intelligent person who has an interest in spriritual matters. You are also an atheist. It seems incongruent.
Brian,
I simply think it is a “bit” of an exeragtion to say the Bible has as much credability as a superman comic.
Outlander,
For the reason that you DON’T believe in evolution…because it conflicts with other beliefs you hold..perhaps scientific perhaps religious.
Nathan,
Agreed..if that means that you’re conceding that parts of the Bible are either morality tales with no basis in fact.
scratch the ‘either’
?
No offense but I wasn’t looking to be “saved” or converted. I still have not been given any specifics about what it is that Catholics, Mormons and others do wrong when compared to Protestants and why evangelicals feel their brand of Christian is the only one. IMO, the only requirement to be a Christian is to believe in the life and teachings of Jesus and Mormons and Jehovah’s Witness are just as Christian as any self righteous evangelical Protestant.
Dear Shane,
Your opinion as to ‘the only requirement’ is wrong. In fact, your preconcieved notions and predjudices against “self righteous evangelical Protestant(s)” make any further discussion with you pointless.
Just put me in the ’self righteous’ column.
Hank
I believe Jesus was crucified for attempting to create an egalitarian society for his followers, which is something that Roman and Jewish leaders would never tolerate since their entire existence depended on exploiting the agrarian peasantry.
I also believe you are a Christian if you say you are. Picking fly shit out of pepper will not change what is in your heart, which is where Jesus lives.
Shane,
I think with the Mormons it has to do not just with their acceptance of Christ, but in part due to their teachings that you can become like God.
Humility, service, and loving tolerance should be our code as Christians.
Hmmm….
Not that I don’t agree with humility, service, or loving tolerance, but the Bible has a bit more for the “Code” as Christians.
Hank,
What gives you or any other person the authority to tell me or anyone else that they are not Christian enough. I think the term self righteous fits you pretty well.
Okay, it’s MY code as a christian.If you want it to be more complicated, go for it.
From Wikipedia concerning Jehovah’s Witness:
“Jehovah’s Witnesses are members of an international religious organization (by the same name) who believe themselves to be the restoration of first-century Christianity.”
“Since their foundation, they have been concerned with the second advent of Jesus.”
It seems that at least JW’s consider themselves Christian.
As for Mormon’s, I have several friends who are. I’ll ask them.
And isn’t it up to the religion/faith/people as to whether they consider themselves Christian?
So far, I’m not willing to say I was wrong. But I’m listening.
Dear Shane,
The WE BLOG gives me the authority and opportunity. Besides, I was commenting on your opinion, not yor Christianity.
Hank
kansassam & Nathan,
I have to cry foul when it comes to the two of you saying that those who disagree with you have no knowledge of your particular brand of faith, i.e. Christianity. In many cases that is not true.
Nathan, I think we’ve been over this road before. The majority of atheists were once part of the Christian faith/religion or another, and therefore have some sort of basis for their arguments. It isn’t so much that they don’t know the Bible, it’s more that they don’t agree and/or accept it. I understand that it’s difficult for you to relate to that because of your strong faith.
kansassam:
“I am talking about verifiable names and places. IMHO, archaology has supported the Biblical references that have been discovered so far. Brown’s book seems to have some historically verifiable inaccuracies.”
Yes, some of the Biblical reference have been verified. I’m assuming you’re referring to places? But those would’ve been verifiable anyway because of records kept at that time. I think there’s still some question about some things though. Has the location of the Garden of Eden been found and verified?
Now for the Dan Brown part… I’m just curious about what you found to be historically verifiable inaccuracies. Not saying there aren’t any, just curious.
One last thing that just happens to be about the REAL topic: The Da Vinci Code movie. :)
I just noticed on Yahoo! Movies that reviewers are giving it a C+ and so are the moviegoers. There’s some interesting stuff there, and a few comments that had me going “HUH?”.
Hank, you especially might find it interesting.
http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/1808625216/info
I really don’t want to read too many of the comments. It might blow the whole thing for me. :)
Holy Comic Book Batman
Brian, flike, RD, so glad YOU could dance this same old dance with these guys again.
Heheheh. And nathan says this:
“First off, we need to look at this in context.”
Boy, THAT was an unexpected comment.
Nathan doesnt think gays destroy straight marriage. He thinks it is just wrong because he thinks it and believes it.
I think christians are wrong too, but I dont try to outlaw them just because I believe it is wrong, morally reprehensible, and the ick factor is VERY strong for me. I dont even like to think about it.
I wish they would just keep their religion to themselves. Why do they have to flaunt it and throw it in our faces when so many of us CLEARLY think it is wrong and NOT a good example for our children.
Sigh. I really dont hate christians. I dont hate straight people either… as long as they act gay in public!!
And for those of you who are irony impaired here, a little icon :(
oh…. and ……BOOOOOOGGGER!!!!!
I am sorry to tell you this but most of the bible was just some of Jesus’ grade school creative writing assignments that someone stole from our garbage and mistook for the word of me. However, we do have detailed records on each and every one of you and we have not forgotten the shrimp and lobster that you have eaten in direct contradiction of Leviticus, see you in hell buddy.
Also, when did I tell you that you could quit stoning adulterers.
BTW, people are born gay, that whole abomination thing was a bad practical joke that got out of hand. Mary and Gabriel like to make humans look silly every now and then and they were right, you guys will believe anything you read.
something you wont hear me say very often:
Thank you GOD!
Why do they have to flaunt it and throw it in our faces when so many of us CLEARLY think it is wrong and NOT a good example for our children.
Homosexuals are having children!? Am I missing something here? lol
Many gays and lesbians adopt.Something the Christian Nationalists are trying to stop.
I have worked undercover for the famous Reverend Phelps. I found out that real homo’s refer to christian couples as “BREADERS”.This proves Phelps is right and the commie fascist pinko fags are really sick! Breaders ….. like we would intentionally make one of them! Yea Right!
Joan of Arc
oh yeah! they adopt. I dont see why providing a home for orphans is of any concern to Christian Nationals or whatever. After all, isn’t that what Jesus said what true religion is all about?
“A religion that is pure and undefiled before God is this: to care for the widow and the orphan.”
I forgot the passage number.
“Many gays and lesbians adopt.”
True, but many have children the old fashioned way too, either before or after coming out.
Is it live or is it a vial of memorex? Or maybe a surrogate?
We love our children too.
breaders?
heheheh. ROF. hehe ROFLMAQAO. heheheheheheheh.
You betchya. We love refering to you all as kin to a chickenfried steak, or maybe breaded mushrooms, or even, dare we say it, breaded cheese?
Hee hee. It’s BREEDERS. Unless you like your marriage deep fried.
Maranara sauce anyone?
ks,
I thought thats what gay people call other gay people who have kids in vitro? Don’t gays call other gays “breeders?” It’s weird seeing gays hate on each other, you’d think they get enough of that from the rest of society.
For my non-Christian friends,
Guys, you’re missing something here. See, Christians are just people, too. We’re subject to the same failings and shortcommings as anybody else. Being a Christian doesn’t make one immune to temptation and sin. Christians aren’t perfect. If we were, wouldn’t be much use for Jesus, would there?
KFC, I am truly sorry that Christians have given you such a hard time. I personally believe that a lot of people use Christianity as a vent for their bigotry. I think a lot of it is really, as you say, the “Ick” factor. Personally, I’m conflicted by what the Bible says and what Jesus taught us when it comes to homosexuality.
KFC, I asked you some pretty straight forward and direct questions about your orientation. I was never condecending or mean-sprited or insulting or judgemental. Somebody very close to me is gay, so I really do know what you’re talking about.
I submit that I have never judged you for your lifestyle. I’m a Christian. I’m not unique.
Being a Christian doesn’t insure you won’t be an @ss. But I’ve known gays who were @sses, too.
Guys, when you have a problem with someone who’s a Christian, your problem is with that person, not the faith. Somebody like Nathan is in your face because he’s Nathan, not because he’s a Christian.
Christians are not your enemy unless you make it so.
The sad thing is that I am not in anyones face about homosexuality unless they bring it up first…
This is a blog. We are here in an isolated format purposefully to debate, argue, and discuss things.
If you want to think I am “in your face” then feel free.
If that was really the case I would have brought signs to the picnic protesting homosexual marriage and in favor of the amendment banning it.
What I do here is simply tell it how it is.
The Bible is pretty clear about Homosexuality.
Either you believe it or you don’t. If you don’t, then hey, I wonder what other verses you simply want to ignore too?
Let me add this:
I don’t hate homosexuals. I treat them like I do anyone else, with respect.
I don’t go out of my way to be mean or rude or vulgar…etc.
I have had some really good homosexual friends.
Ultimately, the Bible says homosexuality is a sin. (Period)
I don’t condone it nor will I support it.
I know that makes people like KFG upset. Oh well.
As a matter of fact, most of Christianity tends to make many people who don’t believe in Christ upset too.
The truth sometimes is not easy. I will still stand by it.
I am here to be both loving to my neighbor and truthful too. Sometimes the truth hurts.
JM, I just wanted to say that I think your mom and my dad would’ve been great friends.
XXX, like most things, it’s the negatives that are best remembered. Or worst, as the case may be. A failing of human nature, I guess. But once burnt, twice shy can be attributed to some of the division.
One last thing, and then I swear I’m going to bed. Tomorrow will be a long day.
“Guys, when you have a problem with someone who’s a Christian, your problem is with that person, not the faith.”
Well, I’m not a guy, but… :)
I agree with you to a point, and that is that it’s the faith that is driving that other person.
Taking a page from Nathan’s book, it’s not Christianity that I have a problem with. It’s what some of the people of Christianity do with it. Which brings us full circle, I guess.
C’est la vie!
Jesus never condemned anybody except the self-righteous Pharisees who were utterly consumed with the idea that everyone had to follow their prescribed laws to be spiritually clean and closer to God. Jesus was quick to point out their hypocrisy because they basically put on a great religious show to impress others while what they did behind closed doors was utterly sinful. (e.g. whitewashed tombs, beautiful on the outside, decrepit and decaying on the inside) It is interesting to note that Jesus never gave any command about homosexuality, he never brings up the issue, not even once in any of the sacred writings of the first Palestinian Cannon, nor does he bring it up in the countless proto-gospels that were condemned as being heretical by the early Catholic church. The only mention of homosexuality in the New Testament texts is found in the letters of Paul. Now, since Christians believe that the books constituting the Bible are the definitive, and complete divine revelation of God to men, everything in those books is treated with equal weight as if God had said it himself when Paul talks about homosexuals not “inheriting the kingdom of God.” Perhaps this stance must be revised?
Don’t gays call other gays “breeders?”
That is one of the most stupid things I have heard here, and that is saying something.
XXX, sigh, we have been over this before. There are toxic christians like nathan and there are loving christians like you, DD, CF, etc. (Dont mean to leave anyone out)I love the individual loving christians, I just hate how their religion does so much damage in the world.
Gosh, that sounds a lot like “love the sinner and hate the sin” doesnt it?
Many who practice christianity are good people. But I can not accept their religion, and no one can make me do it. It is just plain wrong and I can not condone something so evil, no matter what you conservatives say. Saying religion is good doesnt make religion good. (see nathan, two can play that game)
And churches, with their tax exempt priveleges, their political bullying (heheh) in definace of their tax exempt status, their obsessions with keeping non believers in permanent second class citizenship, all those things?
I dont think you support those either XXX.
When christians as a whole do more good in the world than evil, I will reconsider my position. Until then, I will just treat christianity the same way it treats me. With distain, no respect, and coming from the premise that I am just plain wrong.
You want a truce? Fine. Christians first, and then we will go along.
If I wasnt ignoring nathan, I would tell him that SLAVERY is condoned in the bible, and existed for thousands of years and then SUDDENLY, the damn slaves demanded equal rights.
Sheesh.
The slavery you are talking about is when a Hebrew was broke, he would pledge himself to the service of another Hebrew becoming his “slave.” However, that said slave was to be freed once he worked enough to pay his debts, Jewish slaves were always supposed to be freed however he could opt to remain the servant of his master if he so choosed. This type of slavery is far different from the unjust brutality of FORCED slavery by the early European slave-traders. You simply cannot compare the two.
KFG,
Then what do you call this?
http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/news/state/14522790.htm
CrusaderX,
If you can’t trust the validity of what was written in the New Testament by Paul then why do you trust the validity of what is written about what Christ said?
I am just curious as to what methods you are using to determine which scriptures are ok to use and which are not?
“As religious people we’re offended by the idea that if you’re not with the religious right, you’re not moral, you’re not religious,”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/19/AR2006051901813.html
I do not argue over the validity of any books of the Bible. As a Christian myself, I am well aware of the concept that the Gospel is the divine word of God, that the authorship of the Bible was written by human but divinely inspired hands by the revelations given to them by the Holy Spirit. However it is commonly known that many of the traditional beliefs of the Hebrews are not being followed by modern or even ancient Christians. So given that understanding, if we don’t follow all the prescribed laws stipulated in Leviticus, why then must we endorse the laws of Paul? After all, is not Leviticus written by the influence of the Holy Spirit albeit written physically by human hands?
KFG
Are you atheist or do you subscribe to another branch of religion? Just curious because I have a question for you if you are an atheist.
… or any other atheists for that matter.
CrusaderX,
I figured you would understand that before Jesus we lived under the old covenent and now we live under the new covenent.
That is why we don’t adhere to Leviticus law…
Don’t we still follow the Ten Commandments? We do not follow the dietary laws but many have other laws or codes of conduct to live by. I thought that ours was not a religion of rules, but of faith, and if that is true then why is human conduct stressed?
Yes we still follow the 10 commandments.
It is a religion of faith.
Are we not called as the faithful to adhere to God’s commandments?
Faith produces fruits.
You do not obey God because you are trying to follow his commmandments because they are rules, you obey God because you believe in Him and love Him.
You use the words Human conduct when you need to be looking at this as sinful conduct.
I am not stressing rules and every Christian church I have been to doesn’t either.
We should stress to be faithful in God and through that comes obedience.
Nathan,
Does your wife stay in separate quarters during her menstrual cycle? You haven’t touched her have you? How about women at work, are you sure they are all clean, all the time? You better ask to be sure, wouldn’t want you to end up in the special place with the other sinners. Also, I know that you have observed people working on the Sabbath, it is your duty to execute them according to the rules laid out in the bible. The bible is not a buffet, each law is as important as the others.
Satan,
What tricks and lies you use posting under that name.
If you were really God you would know about the Old and New Covenants.
Nathan, he’d also know you aren’t married, lol!
How true…
That would have been a much better come back too. Oh well, can’t see it all.
Oh, and to the shitbag posting as “God”. That’s really bad taste. Do people who know you refer to you as “the A$$hole”?
I thought so.
XXX,”Guys, when you have a problem with someone who’s a Christian, your problem is with that person, not the faith.”
Innerestin’ y’know, how when you’re a political movement. it’s all us christians, but when you make asses of yourselves, it’s every man for himself! Sorry, but when your ministers preach hate from the pulpit and make speeches on TV and buy political advertising with the money you donated, that’s you making those statements, and you verify it when you remain silent to your church’s bigotry.
Jed,
In the many posts you make here, I have yet to see you point out examples of how the Christian church as a whole comes anywhere close to resembling what you say.
Well, Nathan,When I see a large number of people whose only connection is that they belong to a particular religion all using the same rhetoric on the same issues at the same time, I tend to believe it’s the religion.
“Innerestin’ y’know, how when you’re a political movement. it’s all us christians, but when you make asses of yourselves, it’s every man for himself!”
Jed, if that were valid, wouldn’t all us Christians be voting republican? I can assure you the Christian faith is NOT a political movement per se. Some flavors of Christianity are deeply involved in politics in this country. I dissagree with their politics, but not their faith.
Folks, I’m sorry you can’t see the differences among Christians. It’s really pretty simple.
So are Christians another class of people that Liberals don’t want support from?
Jed…Just a thought for the sake of debate. Do you put all of the gay-Christians into that same bucket?Farmgrrl…what is the “ick” factor of a Christian who also happens to be gay?
I have checked and there is not a single gay person down here. God takes special care of his people that have faced discrimination and hatred from so called Christians. He allowed me to set up a separate wing for all of the hypocritical “Love the sinner, hate the sin” assholes. Judge not lest ye yourself be judged is more than a catchy jingle. Hope to see you soon, I would like to show you the new suites I have built for Falwell, Robertson, Fox and Phelps. They should have paid more attention to Dante and his admonishments against hypocrisy and avaricious behavior.
Has anyone see The Da Vinci Code yet? Great movie, I suggest you check it out. Jesus loved it, brought back so many memories of Earth. We are both upset that so many Christians seem to be missing the message that I inspired Dan Brown to write. Even if Jesus was merely human, married and had many children, the hope of peace and love that Christianity brings is still the same. I hope that true believers can set aside their dogma and understand that God loves everyone equally and that includes gays, lesbians, and liberals. Hatred is not the path to heaven and only I am fit to judge the behavior of my people. God does not like his job being outsourced.
Sam,Last I heard, there was a squad of SB’s busy kicking gays out of christianity. Yes, I know a few gay christians and they’re getting to be a pretty conflicted bunch lately, with all those preachers demanding that their rights be taken away!
What rights be taken away?
The only thing I know of is that Christians are not going to support Homosexual marriage.
Whether or not that is a “right” is open to debate.
XXX,”I’m sorry you can’t see the differences among Christians. It’s really pretty simple.”As a non-christian and an outsider, I simply have to take people’s word that they’re christian. I realize that you continually disagree with each other over issues that seem petty to me, and I really have no interest in keeping up on all of them. I guess, like many people, I notice the ones making the most noise. When the noise involves hurt to my friends, I also notice the deafening silence that comes from most of the rest of you. I have to interpret that as at least tacit agreement with the noisemakers. And when 70% of you voted to deprive my friends of the rights you enjoy (and abuse), I’m saddened that a religion that was founded on “Love thy neighbor as thyself” has embraced, in large part, hatred and lies, jingoism and bigotry as it’s new mantra.
Jed,
There you go again with your gross exagerations:
“has embraced, in large part, hatred and lies, jingoism and bigotry as it’s new mantra”
and you were so close to actually having a decent response…
Nathan,Of course it’s a right! If the state chose to deprive you of your ability to formalize your relationships under law, you’d howl to high heaven about your right to marriage!Let’s make one thing clear; gays are not demanding that churches marry them, or for that matter, even like them. They want the civil right to have the state recognize their relationships, the same way the state recognizes the formal relationships of heterosexual couples. This is a civil issue, and most likely a constitutional issue; it is not a religious issue. Yet religious leaders, televangelists and such, have been howling bloody murder over the possibility that the state, which by law is forbidden to take sides in religious issues, might permit gay people the same rights that they cherish. They claim that it somehow defiles the sanctity of marriage, ignoring the fact that marriage lost it’s sanctity decades ago, and that they have no credibility on the subject anyway, since evangelical christians have a higher divorce rate than moderate christians and non-christians! This is exactly the same bigotry that conservative christians were howling at civil rights demonstrators back in the ’60’s! Even the rhetoric is recycled, substituting gays for blacks. And it’s about depriving people of their rights, just as before. Deja-vu all over again!
Nathan,What would you call the anti-gay rhetoric spread by Terry Fox, Fred Phelps and many others, and accepted as gospel by 70% of you?
“So are Christians another class of people that Liberals don’t want support from?”
XXX,Amy Sullivan, who writes for liberal outlets asks this question all the time. I’ll see if I can find some links. Her liberal position is that her ideological and religious peers walk the walk, instead of only talking the talk.
XXX,Some of Amy’s articles:
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2004_11/005085.php
http://gadflyer.com/articles/?ArticleID=147
http://gadflyer.com/articles/?ArticleID=26
Televangelists! Aren’t those the corrupt money grubbing charismatic preachers who lay guilt trips on people who don’t fit their lofty ideals of personal conduct which they themselves fail at achieving?
Practice what you preach.
Most gay people don’t even want to get married, and there are a LOT of gay people where I come from. I don’t see what the big deal is if they get state recognized civil unions though, as long as they don’t bastardize the very essence of marriage by calling homosexual unions marriages. I still have yet to see any conclusive and irrefutable evidence however supporting that homosexual tendencies are something innately genetic. Is there a gene that exists that make people “queer?” I think more research should be done on this topic before we start redefining essential principles of society extending marital rights and privileges to people who deviate from the natural status quo.
When you have a 4 billion base sequence that makes up DNA, and we’ve only figured out the function of less than 2% of it, I think ruling out a “gay gene” would be really stupid. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.If the hundreds of animals species of animals that exhibit homosexual tendencies isn’t enought to convince you…(After all, we’re not related to ANIMALS!!)…what about all of the studies on pheremones and it’s effects on gay/straight people?http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/05/08/lesbian.brains.ap/index.html
Tara,
How many of those homosexual tendencies in animals are due to dominance establishment?
My dog Monty was the alpha dog and went around humping the other dogs…
I don’t consider that to be conclusive or indicative scientific evidence that people are born homosexual.
Logically speaking, no we can’t rule out the possibility of a gay gene because of lack of evidence, however it is not any more supportive of it either.
Wasn’t the entire Human Genome project mapped already?
CruX,Mapped, Yes. Interpreted and understood, no.
Nathan,When I lived on the farm, we had a ram that ran away from the ewes, and only followed around other rams. I must admit that it didn’t seem to have a great sense of style, nor did I ask it what it’s orientation was, but it sure seemed gay to us, and it didn’t seem to be any kind of dominance behavior!
Hey Satan,You better check again- Roy Cohn is buried up to his neck in shit, right down at the bottom! Of course, you probably asked him if he was gay, and he’s still denying it, but check his cause of death.
CruX, Tara,Gayness is almost assuredly congenital. Whether or not it’s genetic is still unknown. A peer-reviewed study a few years back showed that gay children could be identified with 90% certainty as early as 3 years of age. If it is that fixed that early, I think we can rest assured that it is in no way a “choice.”
Jed,
You have a link for that study?
I’m calling BS on that. I have debated with a few people in the “know” on this stuff and have yet to hear of a study any where near that conclusive or accurate.
Jed,”Last I heard, there was a squad of SB’s busy kicking gays out of christianity.”
Point is.. that is NOT the SB’s right. Christianity does not belong to them, it is for everyone who chooses to follow Jesus Christ. If the modern day “Pharisees” choose to exclude people, they had better go back and re-read how Jesus felt about that!
“I think christians are wrong too, but I dont try to outlaw them just because I believe it is wrong, morally reprehensible, and the ick factor is VERY strong for me. I dont even like to think about it.”
Apparantly reading comprehension isnt very strong here. It is CHRISTIANITY that has an ick factor for me, not the orientation of its practicioners. If we are outlawing “ick” then we better get those law writers busy.
And X, yes, I do have a problem with the religion, not just the person. People come and go, live and die. But the damage religions do in the world lives on…generation after generation, after generation.
And BTW X, I dont care if you think being gay is a sin. You are welcome to that thought. Lots of other things are sinful too, but we dont have constitutional amendments regarding them. Your opinion of sin is yours, not mine. Why do we need laws to outlaw sin? Would we need blue laws again to prevent shopping on sunday and keep that sabbath holy?
I think bigotry is a sin too, but I dont advocate a law making bigots second class citizens.
Why do toxics like fred and terry and joe like to quote leviticus if we dont abide by leviticus? Do we throw out everything in the old testiment? When will we be making divorce illegal? When will we start stoning adulterers again?
Heheh. The pick and choose fairy tale club.
Hell, you christians know everything anyway. Must be hard to learn something when you already know EVERYTHING. And that applies to more than just nathan.
Why would anyone provide proof of anything to the all knowing christians here? Why would I show nathan a pipe, only to have him say “that is not a pipe”? Pointless.
Keep that bigotry close to your heart and dont let anyone take it away from you. It must truely be the key to heaven the way you churchies cling to it.
Here, have another cup of that koolaide…. or is it communion wine? Doesnt really matter does it? Praise god and pass the ammunition.
Why would liberals or progressives or anyone but the taliban WANT the support of chrisitans if we have to abandon the ideas of equality under the law, freedom of speech, freedom of and from religion?
We can have their christian support if we become as evil as they are?
Sheesh. We could say that about lots of groups. Liberals could have the support of corporate america if we became as evil as they are.
We could have the support of the oil industry if we endorsed their greed. We could have the support of the europeans if we became like them. We could have the support of lots of groups if we just BECAME them.
I thought america was the land of people who disagree, not the land of people who roll over an play dead for their masters.
My bad.
farmgrrl..My reading comprehension is fine. I’m truly sorry you feel that way about ALL Christians.Maybe I should hate ‘ALL homosexuals’. After all, I was molested by one when I was a pre-teen. But I don’t, and I’m not even angry with the person that did that. Can’t you see that the toxicity runs both ways, your hateful attitude towards Christians turns off even those of us that really care about how you feel. I don’t agree with what the church has done to gays, and we are working at many levels to get that attitude changed, but things take time, and being hated doesn’t help much either.
You are wrong.. Christians are NOT evil… there are some that do bad things, and ALL make mistakes, but it is not because they are following Christ!
I agree with this sam:
“but it is not because they are following Christ!”
Christ’s teachings were wonderful. If the world followed christ’s teachings it would be a far better place.
But…I dont think most ARE following those teachings. They are just playing a giant game of “We are the Champions”.
Of course it is just my opinion. You would have to check with nathan to know what is truely christian and what is not. He and his ilk are the sole arbitors. Just ask them.
All I know about christians is what I see you all do. All I know is what I hear you all say.
But then…that is all I really need to know, isnt it?
And as far as turning off those christians who “claim” to support me?
Too freakin’ bad. I see how well their “support” works for me now.
The truth is ugly and hard to hear. If they dont like the truth about their religion, they should change it. If they want to put their fingers in their ears and sing “lalalala” to avoid seeing the reality of what their religion does in this world….
….they would be in good company with most who share their theology.
Sorry if the truth hurts. Ignoring the truth hurts me more.
You will never redeem yourselves from the damage you cause until you acknowledge it, and CHANGE it!
Saying you are sorry and then doing the same things over and over again, over CENTURIES, does not make you a force for good in the world.
heheh. still laughing.
So if I alienate all the good churchies who read this, the next vote to put hate in the constitution will pass by 90 percent instead of 70 percent?
Heheh. That would hurt me more how? We are already constitutionally enshrined second class citizens. How can you hurt us more? What else do you want to do?
Kill us? Knock yourself out. It still doesnt make YOU right.
ok KFG, not all of us “christians” voted for the amendment or hate you’uns. some of us don’t think it is right and have been vocal about saying it is wrong.it’s ok. to quote Hank “I still love ya”
I have yet to go to a Christian chruch which hates homosexuals.
We welcome them in the church and love them like anyone else.
The one thing that doesn’t happen is condonment, endorcment, or acceptance of homosexualiy.
No matter how much you get upset, angry, pissed off, or want to call us bigots, it will not change the fact that homosexuality is a sin. (period)
It is not the job of preachers to be nice and tolerant. It is the job of them to teach us about Christ and lead us to Christ. Part of that is preaching the truth.
Sorry the truth hurts KFG, but it must be said.
I don’t have to go to leviticus to preach it. It is plain as day in the New Testament too.
You can say that I am a toxic Christian, I don’t care. Coming from someone like you who has an obvious bias against Christians and constantly distorts our teachings and what we do it means little.
Well now we can all rest on this thread. The gospel of nathan has been spoken and we should all obey.
Julie thanks for your vote against the hate amendment. How does it feel to join those dipping the ocean dry with a teaspoon?
Julie thanks for your vote against the hate amendment. How does it feel to join those dipping the ocean dry with a teaspoon?
homosexuality is a sin. (period)
So is straight adultry. period.
When will we have a constitutional amendment on that subject?
heheheheh. Who would YOU rather have in charge of the constitution. Nathan or some mean, freedom loving blogger?
Seventy percent of kansans would rather have nathan in charge of our state constitution.
And we wonder what is the matter with kansas?
If I was in charge?
Wow!
I would be one of the best dictators this world has ever seen!
Now what would happen when I die though? That is the problem. Poop… my empire would go down the drain.
Sigh…
You have to love the hypocrisy of Christians like Nathan. He states that at his church they will welcome and love all homosexuals as long as they don’t engage in homosexual sex or mind being told that they are sinners destined to hell.
It is a bit like telling Christians that I love and welcome them all except for the ones that go to church and read the bible.
Nathan,No, I don’t have a link to that study, but a story about it was published in Psychology Today about seven years ago.
“I have yet to go to a Christian chruch which hates homosexuals.”
I have no idea which church or churches you’ve attended, but I’ve listened to preacher after preacher sermonize about the mythical “Gay Agenda,” and blaming gay people for everything from hurricanes to ingrown toenails! You’ve no doubt heard it too, if you listen to anything at all. Oh yes, that’s attacking the sin, not the sinner. Unfortunately, when you attack the sin with a baseball bat, it’s the “sinner” that gets killed, not the “sin!” I’ve lost too many friends to that particular form of christian “love.”
Jed,
Please tell me which churches you are refering to when you say this:
“I’ve listened to preacher after preacher sermonize about the mythical “Gay Agenda,” and blaming gay people for everything from hurricanes to ingrown toenails!”
Name the “preacher after preacher” that you heard say those things.
Jed, we had a boar like your ram. He was the ONLY boar we had, and he never touched a sow or a gilt. Ever. We had to buy another boar, and he did a great job. :)
Male dogs hump. They don’t care what it is they’re doing it to, they just do it.
Cats, on the other hand, don’t. And we had a big tomcat that got a tad bit confused one day and tried out his son. Now that I think about it, I don’t know which of the two was more confused. I was laughing.
My daughter and I saw the Da Vinci Code today. We were almost 10 minutes late, so she was a tad confused. I felt there was a lot left out, especially explanation, but part of that might be because we didn’t see the beginning. We also sat very close to the front, which screws up my perspective somehow. All in all, not the blockbuster it could’ve been (the ending was changed some), but not all that bad either.
I still prefer the book. I usually do.
RD,Making books into movies is always difficult, because so much has to be cut, or doesn’t translate onto film. I still prefer books, too.
Nathan,Well, let’s see- there’s Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Donald Wildmon and James Dobson to start off with. I’m not mentioning the local churches, since I’d like to maintain my anonymity there, but there are about half a dozen I look in on from time to time, especially when certain issues are being discussed.Suffice it to say, if you haven’t heard about “The Gay Agenda,” you must’ve missed a lot of Sundays and a lot of church magazines.
I am not just talking about the “gay agenda”
I am talking about these comments:
“and blaming gay people for everything from hurricanes to ingrown toenails”
Besides a very select few ignorant people who say these things it is not as predominent as you say.
Half dozen churches?
Sigh… where do you live? In some alternate universe?
Where are all these Christians and Christian churches you are always talking about?
KFG..”homosexuality is a sin. (period)
So is straight adultry. period.
When will we have a constitutional amendment on that subject?”
What a slippery slope this could become.. when we make a constitutional amendment against liars… who in the heck is going to be left to run our government??
But then again, I wouldn’t want to repeal all the laws against murder and stealing. So, we NEED some moral law.. but the marriage amendment went too far. Church “marriages” should be protected by the church.. gay “unions” should be protected by Caesar. Notice that Jesus did not whip up on the money changers OUTSIDE his Father’s house…..
Sam, I thought there was no order of magnitude concerning sin. But perhaps that is not the christian perspective.
“What a slippery slope this could become.. when we make a constitutional amendment against liars… who in the heck is going to be left to run our government??”
What makes one sin worthy of a constitutional amendment and another sin, like bush lying, or jesse helms fathering an out of wedlock child, a mark of character to so many christians?
Must be only a “select” few committing those sins.
Who said here that when christians look good, they all wanna be a part of the bandwagon, and when they dont look good, it’s every man for himself?
Yea, falwell blames gays for 9/11 and pat blames gays for hurricane katrina. But then, they are just part of the “select” few, right?
And taliban terry, jesus joe and pharasee phred have NEVER issued the kinds of comments jed mentions.
I mean, who you gonna believe? Jed, or those lying ears of yours?
Uh Scott, from past experience, I’m afraid that a theology lesson is probably wasted; and I’m not worthy to speak on behalf of evangelical Christianity. But here goes anyway.
Christians don’t make the rules, and we can’t change them. You become a Christian when you decide to follow Christ and play by God’s rules.
Having said that, when it comes to being born again, sexual orientation is irrelevant. All are sinners and fall short. However, when you are born again, you will recognize your sin and do what you can to avoid sin and please God.
Jed; teller of stories, you should find out what Dobson’s position really is. It might surprise you.
KFG..”Sam, I thought there was no order of magnitude concerning sin.”
I think that’s what I was saying.. in a toungue-in-cheek sorta way!
Sam, not picking on you personally, you just happen to be here :)
“Christians don’t make the rules, and we can’t change them. You become a Christian when you decide to follow Christ and play by God’s rules.”
Oh, so when did god repeal the blue laws that protected the sabbath? When did god repeal the law about remarriage after divorce? When did god repeal the laws about cheeseburgers and shrimp and mixed racial marriages?
Or were those christian legiislators who changed those rules?
Indeed sam, christians do make the rules of law in this state and this country. They can also repeal them when THEY decide they no longer needed to be followed. Unless I am missing something, god remains silent on the rules. It is HUMANS who make them up and change them at whim.
Either that, or I must not be getting god’s emails about when the rules change. Only legislators can apparantly access that account. And activist judges who are by and large christian. :)
I won’t be reading or seeing the Da Vinci Code because I think it denagrates a great person. . . Leonardo.
Instigator, how do you know what the book or movie says about Leonardo if you’ve never seen or read either?.
“I’ve made up my mind and even the truth can’t change it.”
Sound familiar anyone?
Sounds like blow, the price family, outlander, todd, etc.
“Dont confuse me with the facts!”
Nathan,”and blaming gay people for everything from hurricanes to ingrown toenails”
I believe it was Pat Robertson who blamed the gay population of New Orleans for Katrina, and a bunch of others jumped on that bandwagon. I may have exagerated a bit on the ingrown toenails.The half dozen or so churces that I look in on from time to time are right here in Wichita, except for one in Augusta. And no, no alternate universe, but I’ve been looking for one so I can get the hell out of the one you, Outlander and Ian are in!
Jed, I got an email this week from friends who said the catholic churches last sunday passed around things to sign to send to their congressmen telling them to vote against equal protection under the law. Except they said something like “protect marrigae”.
heheh. first, where is the IRS when you need them to examine campaigns in church, and second, I see how well the church is protecting marriage.
No divorce? No problem. We’ll just wink and call it annulment. THAT will protect marriage against those mean old gays.
heheh. Separation of church and state. right.
I wonder if those churches, and I know which ones they are, filed finance reports with the kansas ethics commission?
KFG,
No matter how much you want to shut Christians up, it is not going to happen.
They are not breaking any laws.
I hope they dont shut up. I hope they keep doing exactly what they are doing. Keep showing us the truth of who they are and what they stand for.
I hope you continue to post so people can see the truth about dominion and equal justice and the agenda of toxics like you.
Please. Can you make it even more clear for the readers here? I would LOVE it.
Farm Gal,Some years back, I got a phone call from a priest who was doing the research necessary to grant an annulment of a friend’s ex-husband. I told the priest that the guy in question was a control freak who beat my friend bloody on numerous occasions and abused his kids constantly. After some conversation, the priest promised that the man would not be permitted to marry in the church until he had undergone extensive therapy. My friend got a notice that her ex had been married in the church the following week! Never take the word of a priest!
Nathan,Just the tax laws. If your church would just go ahead and pay it’s taxes as a political organization, it could then say whatever it wants!
About what I would expect jed. Gay marriage is bad, but wife beating is good!!
More kansas family values. But please, continue to keep marriage sacred. All those elvis impersonators in las vegas need more drunks to marry!
Uh… two drunk straight people who let him perform the ceremony? And then get an annulment?
Now THAT is sacred. Damn gays for ruining it anyway!
Hee hee julie. You must have been thinking that you had respect for the institution of marriage. And it shows when you and mm look at each other. Nice to see.
Although the elvis impersonator might have made for more memorable pictures….
Hey, what could possibly be more sacred than Elvis?
And to think I was married by a judge when I could have had Elvis. Man – what was I thinking?!
I will never be ashamed of the truth KFG.
I probably do need to practice on being a bit more loving in my approach to it here on the blog and I have been trying to work on that.
Unfortunately I get a little too caught up in preaching the truth instead of lovingly explaining it.
Either way, no matter how I say it, it will still be offensive to you KFG.
The truth is not always kind.
And YOU are the sole decider on what is the truth. Not only for yourself, but for everyone else as well.
I dont care how you dress up your words or pretend that you are a force for good. Your true self will always out.
We see you for what you are nathan. You can pretend to be different, but until you ARE different, it is just another costume.