It was encouraging to learn during Wednesday’s Sedgwick County Commission meeting how smoothly the downtown arena seems to be progressing, with property appraisals and the first of the 26 site acquisitions nearly complete. One unbudgeted surprise: that street improvements for the project will involve eight properties on Washington Avenue. Assistant County Manager Ron Holt expressed the hope “that around August we will see some activity on the site” — meaning buildings could start coming down just 21 months after voters approved the $184.5æmillion project. That’s fast work. Commissioners also could pick the design next week. To be part of the process, check out the three designs and participate in the online forum at the Web site www.sedgwickcounty.org/arena/.
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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104 Comments
On the way home for lunch the news was talking about how many businesses will have to relocate for the Arena site.
Question: Why are they building an arena?Answer: to bring people downtown!Question: in order to build this arena they have to clear part of downtown, if you have to destroy part of downtown, why are you then wanting people to go downtown?Answer: ?
Another question: Will the arena have a blue roof?Answer: It probably will, otherwise they would have build it in the rich part of town!
I was thinking some of those old buildings like the Spaghetti Works building could be renovated into housing for the homeless. I’m pretty sure there are federal grants available to help fund something like that!
WD..I wonder what they did with that old blue roof…. that was alot of dollars worth of roofing material.
Finish determining all costs for design fees, real estate acquisition, political costs by proponents, construction, off-budget improvements to the city’s infrastructure (storm sewers, sanitary sewers, streets, bridge, signage).
THEN LET THE CITIZENS OF SEDGWICK COUNTY VOTE ON THIS ARENA ISSUE AT THE NOVEMBER GENERAL ELECTION TO DECIDE ONCE AND FOR ALL IF THEY DO OR DON’T WANT THIS PROPOSED QUARTER OF A BILLION (YES THATS BILLION) DOLLAR WHITE ELEPHANT.
Also include in the vote by citizens the expense of providing parking for 5,000 automobiles on ground level with adequate ingress/egress, at least equivalent to the Kansas Coliseum parking lots.
This time, County Commissioners, please don’t Mickey Mouse the figures. Vote Yes or No.
Once again, I think it would be cool to make the parking a part of the “tourist attraction”. Arena visitors would pay to park safely nearby!The Eagle should send a reporter to check one of these out and bring back an informational story about how well these really work!
http://www.concentric.net/~Robopark/index2.htm
http://aclifts.com/CarParks/
http://www.robopark.com/corporate.html
http://www.roadtraffic-technology.com/projects/hoboken/
Yes, it is moving forward quickly, so are the costs. As of this morning, reports are that it is going to be more costly than the $184.5 million already estimated. One problem…they didn’t include street improvements. Will that cost be shunted off to the City?
Either way, taxpayers will pay for it. Is there any chance any of the ‘increased business’ this thing is going to bring will help reduce my taxes after paying for the damn thing?
Riiiight.
Unfortunately the financing for the proposed arena does NOT use revenue bonds, that is, where revenue from the project would pay for the bonds/mortgage payment. Any revenue that might acrue would go to the county commissioners to be used as they determine.
HOWEVER, even the most ardent of the 200 or so arena cheerleaders group admit at best the arena will be a massive money loser. Expenses will include electricity and natural gas for heating and cooling this massive building, maintenance, management staff, custodial service, promotion, marketing, sales, changing floors for whatever activity is scheduled, etc., etc., etc.
Also keep in mind, currently no users are signed on for using the arena. Some of the users mentioned in reports do not plan to use the arena in the long term if at all. Arena cheerleaders will probably “announce” some big name rock groups that “might” come to the arena to give it viability.
The best plan is for the public to get to vote on the arena in the November election when the total cost is known. The public vote yes or no.
Then develop a comprehensive plan for redevelopment of downtown Wichita similar to the world famous country club plaza in Kansas City or other similar developments. Perhaps reserve a usable arena “footprint” nearer the Arkansas River for eventual development by a private investor.
Question for those of you who live in the area. Does the city actually have a need for the arena that will in time allegedly recoup the “investment”? or Is this like some of the scams in KC and Overland Park where they are selling it as bait for furture, mythical attractions, at a cost to be maintained by taxpayers and enjoyed by politicians?
Every city does something like this.
But I think the arena is going to be a positive thing.
Thanks JWink,You answered my question while I was typing it.
I believe it will bring a good deal of redevelopment in downtown Wichita.
“One unbudgeted surprise: that street improvements for the project will involve eight properties on Washington Avenue.”
They are claiming that these costs were unanticipated. THAT IS A LIE! The need for street improvements including left turn lanes WAS anticipated. They were fully informed about that. They chose to ignore it.
I don’t know why Joe. From what I have seen it simply places a clean spot in the middle of the blight. I’ve seen dozens of these projects in downtown areas, and never yet seen a “revitalization” beyond the sales pitch.
WD:Question: in order to build this arena they have to clear part of downtown, if you have to destroy part of downtown, why are you then wanting people to go downtown?Answer: ?
Actually, the answer is the part of downtown being cleared is an eyesore. Take a trip down there–there is absolutely nothing there that will draw 15,000 people downtown. It’s like a wound–you have to clean it out before it heals.
kansassam, some of the buildings currently on the arena site will be maintained. The Spaghetti Works building is slated to be turned into a hotel. A row of older warehouse-style structures next to it will also stay. The lofts at St. Francis are also staying. I do have to disagree that a homeless shelter next to a major arena is not a great idea. Perhaps a nice homeless shelter can be built elsewhere.
JWink, you want parking lots like the Coliseum, with “adequate ingress/egress.” Since when does the Coliseum have “adequate ingress/egress”? The place is a mess. There are two–count them TWO–exits out of that hellhole, 85th and Hydraulic. I’m looking forward to dispersed parking and dozens of streets to leave on downtown. Who are these users you mention that do not plan on using the arena? The Thunder has not signed a lease or anything but do plan on playing downtown. There seem to be rumblings about an arena football or basketball team.
Raptor/Ben, the costs of street improvements are included in the arena budget, to the tune of $4 million. These costs are only for street improvements in the immediate area around the arena, however. Building multiple left turn lanes on Washington was an idea tossed around long ago, Ben, you are right. However, it was contingent upon the arena’s location. If the West site had been chosen, it would not have been needed.
Before we all freak out and proclaim that the sky is falling, let’s remember that the tax is actually projected to bring in about $201 million. This should be sufficient to cover any additional costs incurred in the project–including off site street improvements and higher than expected land acquisition costs.
YBS, you’ve seen “dozens” of these projects with no revitilization??? Where, in the state of delusion?
Visit LoDo in Denver (Coors Field/Pepsi Center), Bricktown in OKC (Ford Center), Alltel in Little Rock, Delta in Salt Lake, AA in Dallas. The list goes on.
Honestly, I have no clue what you are talking about. Arenas are PROVEN to be key tools in downtown redevelopment. If they were as unsuccessful as you are implying, not practically every major city in the United States would have/be building/be planning one.
Shocker – the improvements to Washington were known to be needed regardless of which site in the ‘blue cloud’ was chosen.
There is enough technology out there to make the arena an energy efficient building. This is the 21st century after all. But doing something like that takes forward thinking, and from what I’ve been reading about it, that’s beyond the current city council.
As with the tower, this project could very easily put Wichita at the head of class concerning technologies. I seriously doubt they will be able to crawl out of the 20th century, though.
As a part-time resident of Wichita this arena and the projected budget never made any sense to me. I spend the winters in the Phoenix area and they are building a new stadium for the Cardinals NFL team at a cost of 350 million. This stadium will be state of the art and includes not only a retractable dome but also a playing field that can slide outside the building in order to make way for concerts and other events, it will have thousands of parking spaces and seating for 70,000 people. Even with guaranteed tenants like the AZ Cardinals and the Fiesta Bowl, the stadium will have a tough time breaking even. In contrast, Wichita is building a 15,000 seat arena with no notable design elements and zero parking and it is going to cost 200 million. Where is all the money going? Also, what events and teams are under contract to use the arena when it is built? Wichita does not have any professional sports teams to speak of and I just don’t see anyway that the downtown arena can make any profits from minor league hockey and a basketball tournament every few years. The downtown arena is a huge boondoggle that will bleed the taxpayers of Wichita dry for decades to come.
“Shocker – the improvements to Washington were known to be needed regardless of which site in the ‘blue cloud’ was chosen.”
This is NOT true. Only with the Central and East sites were planners certain Washington needed improvements. The West and North sites did not REQUIRE turn lanes be added to Washington.
Shane, I’ve seen reports regarding that stadium. Isn’t the entire cost of the project, not just the stadium itself, actually closer to $450 million? And it’s being built in Glendale, actually–and not downtown Phoenix–on what used to be cheap ranch land? And not the entire roof retracts, just a small portion in the middle?
I’m not picking on you Shane, Cardinals Stadium is a very impressive facility and you guys will be the envy of the league for years to come. It’s just hard to compare an NFL stadium to an arena. The cost of our arena project compares favorably to costs of other arena projects around the country.
The Thunder will be the primary tenant at the new arena, and honestly the Coliseum has prevented us from securing other notable professional sports teams. We were lucky the AFL2 gave us the Stealth–other leagues have excluded Wichita JUST because the Coliseum was not an appropriate place for them to play (too small, lacks suites, antiquated, etc).
And Shane, don’t fall into that nasty trap of expecting the arena to turn a profit. It won’t. Probably never will–but it’s not supposed to. It’s not a business my friend, it’s a public facility.
JR:
I wasn’t implying that Ed had nothing important to say, to the contrary. I don’t agree with a lot of his ideas, and some I can’t understand, but he does come up with some good stuff that makes me stop and think. I have also wondered what drives his obviously strong feelings about his ideas..
Praise our city leaders for building another concrete pyramid in the Wichita region. In the last thirty years we built CENTURY II CONVENTION CENTER, THE KANSAS COLISEUM CONVENTION CENTER, AND NOW THE ARENA. We can keep a million illegals busy building monuments in Wichita for lifetimes because the lazy Americans don’t know what real work is.
Thanks Wichita – this monument is for you!
Well I see arena cheerleaders, Joe Williams and Shocker07, have returned to ballyhoo the proposed downtown arena. Good. If you stop the spinning and dodging, perhaps all can learn something here.
In the unforgetable words of Ronald Reagan, and I paraphrase loosely, I refuse to hold your inexperience, lack of track record, lack of accomplishment and lack of knowledge of the real world against you two college boys.
I notice that many of the points you made in previous e-mails have already been proven dead WRONG. Or merely your opinion based on hot air.
It wasn’t long ago, that Shocker07 guaranteed the cost would never, never exceed $187.5 million. Now a few weeks later, both you and the Wichita EAGLE admit the cost has already risen to $201 million OR MORE.
Further we all know this doesn’t include additional millions for parking. Apparently the plan is to offer investors the right to build parking facilities somewhere in the vicinity so they can charge for parking. One location might be the soon to be abandoned Cox Communication’s historic railroad station across the tracks.
At least you and your 200 arena supporters perservere against the 170,000 Sedgwick Countians who are now against wasting tax dollars on this white elephant.
Also I mentioned the need several months ago to construct more storm and sanitary sewers to serve the arena. Your response was the current rusty old wornout sewer systems could handle it. Recently I noticed the comment that both new storm and sanitary sewers will be needed, at whose expense I don’t know.
As a regular taxpaying citizen, of course I don’t have access to a lot of facts that I would like to have to refute the false claims by you arena cheerleaders.
For example, its my understanding there are NO prospects by anyone to lease the arena on a long term basis at a financially sound amount. I know you want to wave your hands over the matter and say maybe hockey or maybe indoor football or maybe pingpong tournaments but even if they signed up they would only furnish a drop in the bucket relating to real expenses.
Now I see we might lose the Museum of Treasures from Old Town. Of course, the unspoken reason might be the arena, if built, could potentially use all of the public parking in that area. This along with the many other companies I previously mentioned who are moving out.
Speaking of parking again, it is extremely poor policy to build a building and not provide the proper ratio of parking. For office buildings, that ratio is generally four spaces per 1,000 SF of leasable space. In an arena, I suspect a ratio of perhaps one parking space per two seats on the theory that two persons per car will attend arena events. It doesn’t make sense to direct attendees up and down dark alleys to search for a space or two between trash containers. Frankly thats mickey mouse.
In regard to “ingress/egress” from the Kansas Coliseum: The Coliseum renovation plan includes widening the entrance and exit driveways to something like four lanes in and four out at all exits, clearly marked with proper striping. The lot itself would be resurfaced with some additional spaces to the 4,000 or so spaces there now.
Regarding the Coliseum, one alternative would be to build a new arena adjacent to the Britt Brown arena and then implode the old arena. Or renovate the Britt Brown arena. Either way, we would end up with a first class facility up there adjacent to the freeway.
Of course, as we know, that area is the hottest commercial area in the Wichita metropolitan area. Its the place to see and be seen.
There is some talk of establishing satelite parking lots and busing customers to the downtown arena. Why not do the same but bus the customers to the Kansas Coliseum?
Because you seem to have an inside source of information — I would like to learn how much money has been spent on the downtown arena so far? Is that information available to me or is it still a secret?
Well, that’s covers your main points that I can think of right now.
Well JWink, I never read anything about the arena going to cost $201 million, plus how does anybody know how much it’s going to cost. The arena hasn’t been built yet.
Once it is built will we know the true cost of the arena. It could be below projected cost or it could be more. But at the moment, things are looking that it’s going to stay in budget.
First the land acquisition, although recent appraisals have gone up from the previous one, which will cost a bit more, but the selected site is still a lot less than the other three sites. So they are still in budget. Tax collection for the arena has been way ahead, so there is a plus for that.
You don’t like the arena for your specific reasons. You hate the taxes collected for it, you think it’s going to be a white elephant, and you think only elites are going to benefit from it.
I guess you haven’t been out of Wichita to another big city to see what happens to an area once an arena is built. If you get a chance, we can get back to the benefits it provides in downtown redevelopment. The arena supporters didn’t choose downtown for the hell of it. There is a proven track record of the success of downtown arenas in cities. Wichita isn’t the first to try this, we are actually the last in our region. We were bound to have the downtown arena.
If Wichita will ever compete for convention and to attract business it better have a downtown arena. If not, we will always be passed over because potential businesses and convention planners will look at us as unprogressive and too small.
Have you ever wonder why sport stadiums in most large cities are built downtown? Because they want it to be a white elephant? Do you believe that all the top 50 largest cities in the USA have downtown arenas because it was a waste of tax payers money and they all wanted white elephants? It a successful design of urban planning. Wichita is just following suit.
If you are not on the bandwagon, that’s fine, that’s your choice. But I’m a proud supporter. I even go out of my way to make sure I buy everything in Sedgwick County. I travel all over the state for work every day, but I make sure I buy everything that I need, even down to lunch in Sedgwick County. I support the arena for the future of Wichita and the progressive attitude we should have.
About the Museum of World Treasures, yes it would be sad if they left, but I honestly believe they are trying to play a government card. The MoWT wanted the Farm Market building for quite awhile. They convince the city of Wichita to allow them the building and told them that they would pay for the rent and property taxes. It would be a great attraction and everything. They sold the city on a bill of goods and rightly so.
The city believed they could be great tenants to a public building so they kicked out all the merchants of the Farm Market building and gave it to the MoWT. Everything was fine and dandy. But a couple of years ago, the MoWT asked the city of Wichita if they could forego the agreed upon rent and only pay $1 a year. The city said no. Because they kicked out long time tenants for the MoWT and they should agree to their lease arrangement.
So now they threaten to move. And they have legitimate reasons and complaints, but I seriously doubt they will.
Shocker 07
I hope your finals went well. We missed you at the meet up. Your old sparring partner J Wink was there.
I’m with J Wink on this one.
Let’s get a final idea and then vote again whether we really want this thing or not.
You mention OKC Denver and KC. I’ve been to all 3. Trust me. NO ONE is going to come to Wichita if they can go to any of those places. They made themselves interesting 30 years ago when Wichitans were arguing the merits of the Tripodal sculpture.
I attended an event the other day at Botanica. People were willing to park and WALK! They even turned a 2 way drive into a one way parking their cars on it.
Reason for optimism? Hardly. The event was FREE. People were complaining as they stood in line to pay nothing to attend.
THAT’S Wichita. And that is the future of your arena.
I applaud Joe Williams and you your enthusiasm for Wichita. Even if I don’t understand it. Wichita was dead before you were born.
I disagree with you JR. It would probably be much more alive if we could show the road of the leftist pessimistics and the unions in our city.
Nothing burns my butt to see people being so down on Wichita. Fine! You can talk bad about it and hate it. But don’t stand in the way of people who want to do something postive about it.
I guess you guys are against the arena, because you don’t want Wichita to progress.
I hope you guys lose in your endevour and the successful and the people who love this place win each and every time.
The arena has been voted on and it will be built. Buildings on the site will start to be torn down by next month and July. I’m sorry losers, but the arena is a done deal.
Maybe you guys can move somewhere else.
News Flash: Wells Fargo Arena in Des Moines, in it’s first year of operations, came in with an almost $3 million dollar profit. Spell it with me: P-r-o-f-i-t.
I must say, I just don’t understand why anyone would possibly want your new arena to fail. It’s good for everyone if it succeeds. And believe it or not, it probably will.
Also, to address one other issue that seems to be generating some heat there, no new parking was provided for Wells Fargo and we’ve survived just fine.
De-centralized parking actually has some nice advantages, especially if you know your way around. A parking garage would be a huge mistake … it’d just be an incredible bottleneck trying to get out. The same can be said for large flat lots with limited exits.
Best wishes to the good people of Wichita, both pro- and con- on the arena. I hope you are all able to enjoy it one day.
Uh huh
Thank you nicswitcher from cornutopia.
Joe?
“pessimistic liberals”?
Liberals are by nature OPTIMISTIC. Little wonder that this one in the conservative duchy of Kansas has lost a little of his zeal.
Um Joe?
You are a good hearted guy but your brain is muddled. (Kinda like last meet up)
You are all about civic improvement; Making “the village” better.
These are the traits of a LIBERAL. But I bet I burn your eyes just posting that word.
Any private interests chomping at the bit to build your arena these last 30 years? NO
Did you arena cheerleaders make this a project funded by PROPERTY TAXES? You know, having the folks that will use the arean pay for it? NO
No you went to a SALES TAX. Let the burden be shared equally. To hell with the folks who can’t afford to use your arena after it’s built.
And what is up with your advocacy to bring people to Wichita juxtaposed against your last post telling people to LEAVE?
Methinks you are one confused liberal Joe. Get straight with yourself and come on back.
Arena cheerleaders, Joe and Shocker#7: You guys are so redundant, it gets sickening answering your rantings, raving, name calling and trying to speak for me and others. Why don’t you stick with the issues?
Regarding the figure of $201 million, the EAGLE newspaper said it just a few days ago. I should have saved it. Even that is suspect, frankly the real estate acquisition costs and demolition costs are completely unknown at this point and they could easily blow the total cost up to the 1/4 billion dollars I have been talking about.
Reconstruction of storm and sanitary sewers downtown for the arena although probably off-budget could be very big.
In fact a lot of real costs are off-budget such as salaries of a lot of people who are spending lots of their time working on the arena but charging to other accounts. Both of you two fellows would probably be in this category — right?
As I have said before, just because Smith City is building a white elephant arena (hopefully not paid for by the taxpayers) — is no reason Wichita has too also.
Every economic analysis I have seen regarding building arenas in downtown sections of cities say they are destined to be failures.
Not only would the initial 1/4 billion dollars be wasted but using the normal multiplier effect of multiplying by eight, the real loss to Wichita would be TWO BILLION DOLLARS. Thats a lot houses that won’t be built, a lot of buildings that won’t be built, a lot of shopping centers, schools, manufacturing plants, etc. that won’t be built.
In regard to the Thunder signing a bona fide lease to play in the arena, I have heard there is no way they would do this. The word I hear is they want their own arena somewhere in the suburbs to leverage their return on their investment. SO FORGET THE THUNDER and INDOOR FOOTBALL.
Your statement, “The arena looks like it will stay in budget.” Thats so funny, I am still laughing. Come on, even you must know there is no chance of this.
I THINK I AM THE POSITIVE PERSON REGARDING FUTURE OF DOWNTOWN WICHITA. I DON’T WANT TO SEE A 1/4 BILLION DOLLARS WASTED ON A WHITE ELEPHANT ARENA.
I want to see a logical plan for renewing downtown with the public actually getting involved rather than the sham that is going on now.
So, when all the figures are gathered together including for parking lots — lets all vote again YES OR NO and let that be the decision.
Hey JWink,How about we vote on the mayors race, the 2000 and 2004 election, and every other election that has happened in the last 30 years. You anti-arena folks lost get over it.
I like all these claims you make how about backing them up with links. Of course you can’t do that because they don’t exist.
For old arena stories go to http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/special_packages/arena/I have never seen where the arena will eventually cost $201,000,000. The only time I have seen that number is in Shocker07’s posts.
In regards to Shocker07 he has been in the real world.
How is the real loss $2 billion dollars? Because the money for the arena could go to schools, shopping centers, manufacturing plants, and housing?
Ok! Let’s raise the sales tax up to 10% and lets raise property taxes on the wealthy people. People that have homes worth $100,000 or more pay property taxes that are $500 per $1000 assess.
That would raise countless billions and we could pour all that money into schools, shopping centers, and manufacturing plants. Also! Every person who couldn’t afford a home would have one built for them for free. We would have a great place to live.
Yeah right!
It’s not the governments job to build manufacturing plants or shopping centers or houses. That is up to the free market of business. Arenas are civic centers design to house events for the community, if you use it or not. Most arenas are government funded and operated.
You better come up with resources or links to your “economic analysis” because everything else points the opposite direction.
You want to see manufacturing plants, shopping centers, and homes, build a downtown arena and see how fast Wichita grows. Downtown Wichita will look vastly different in 10 years. It will no longer be a place of vacent and deteriorated buildings. It will be vibrant and alive.
It’s not going to be a white elephant. Tell me this JWwink… Is the the Kansas Coliseum a white elephant?
JR! In regards to myself. There was no sign, I had no contact number, and there was a serious lack of information in regards to your picnic. Did you announce exactly which pinic table in the park you were going to get?
Sorry! But every leftist liberal I know are all pessimistic and doom and gloom. There is nothing wrong with liberals. I said leftist liberals. There is a big difference.
Joe,What right-wing liberals do you know? And how did they get so confused?
Shocker – I remember specifically informing County officials of the need to improve Washington for traffic flow regardless of specific location within the “cluod”. It MIGHT be correct to claim that they did not comprehend the information; it is FALSE to claim that it was not known. You are using the Ken Lay defense – “we just didn’t understand what was happening”
Former – I don’t know anyone who WANTS the arena to fail. There is a huge difference between predicting an event and wanting an event. In regards to the Des Moines arena and its profit – does it have any anchor tenants? If not, how does it make money? How does it ROUTINELY fill a good fraction of its seats?
Joe – you are LYING when you claim that those of us who question the wisdom of this venture hate Wichita. Your sham labeling is simply designed to prevent any real questioning of your narrow-minded groupthink. Label anyone who disagrees as evil. All to typical of you.
I hope this thing works. I hope they find a Wells Fargo to put up some money for naming rights (gee, whatever happened to that?). I hope they find tenants? By the end of the decade we shall see.
Ben. In all due respects, why is it that people are so against the Downtown Arena? Because they think it is a waste of tax payers money? Is that it? Or is it more.
About people that are against the arena hating Wichita, go back and read JR post that people in Wichita are nothing but freeloaders and “Wichita was dead before you were born”. I don’t know what that sounds like to you Ben, but that sounds like that the person doesn’t like Wichita that much. So am I really lying?
Ben! I’ve asked questions and nobody has answered them. All I get back is hate and about the procieved failure of the downtown arena. I’ve said in my prior post that if you don’t like the arena for any reason, that’s fine.
Yes! I’m guilty of shamless labeling, but so is everybody else.
I don’t mind people being against the arena or questioning the wisdom. I’ve asked the questions that relate to it. I’ve tried to reasonably ask questions that may help people decide if the downtown arena is a good choice for the taxpayers and the citizens at large in our area.
Do I have to repost them?
Joe – if you want to label JR that way fine but do not apply such a broad brush. My concerns with the arena is that it will hurt the City.
“I guess you guys are against the arena, because you don’t want Wichita to progress.”
Note the PLURAL ‘guys’. I take that as including me. I DO want Wichita to progress. I just don’t see this as the route to do so.
I have raised numerous specific questions. I pointed out long ago that Washington would require upgrades; they now claim that “theye didn’t know” I want to know who the anchor tenants will be. I want to see some progress on naming rights that were touted so much.
I could just as readily claim that you hate Wichita because you want to see it waste its money. However, I will not do so – it would not be true. But, you happily did just that to me with your broad brush.
Now for another question about the specific project. Will it be built in such a manner that it can host conventions? So far all I hear about is sports and concerts. So, maybe every five years or so I might be able to see UCLA play in an NCAA sub-regional. What else will it have that will draw me in?
I appoligize for labeling people with a broad brush.
Basically, if you go to any even at the Kansas Coliseum, you will go to the downtown arena. If you didn’t go to the Coliseum for anything, then you probably won’t go to the DT Arena.
All I can say is that you have legitimate questions about tenants, but we also have to remember that the DT Arena will be the civic center for Wichita for at least the next 30+ years. A lot can happen during that time, including possibly Wichita anchoring a pro team.
The downtown arena reminds me of the “waterpark” fiascos that abounded in the not too distant past. Joplin spent over a hundred thou in an attempt to turn part of a city park into a waterpark. Problem was, there hasn’t been a waterpark built with city or state funds anywhere in the country that has been a money maker or even a money neutral endeavor. Thankfully, the Joplin residents turned down that nonsense.
Exactly how much input was given the Wichita residents, and how much of that input was taken into considerstion? Was this something that was a voted on by the people? Were they even allowed to vote on it? Were a lot of smoke and mirrors used? I am interested because I will be moving to Wichita.
Getting a little defensive Joe?
There are a lot of things I DO hate about Wichita. It’s people are WAAYYYY to conservative, selfish, lazy and shortsighted. Those are not liberal traits. There are also a lot of things I KNOW about Wichita. I’ve only lived here all my life.
Reality is reality. If you don’t like how it tastes look elsewhere.
Your arena is not going to change the people of this town. They are what they are. Your arena is not going to bring people to this town. There are too many better places to go.
Someone asked the question “is the kansas coliseum a white elephant”. In essence, yes it is. A white elephant is a business that does not generate enough revenue to cover it’s own debts. The kansas coliseum does not cover its own debts without help from the county. I can’t remember the last time that the coliseum had an event that was a total sellout. THAT is the main issue. I do not agree with building a new arena. The city doesn’t need it. The coliseum is more than big enough to handle the events that have been coming here. The reason that we don’t get the shows and concerts here that other cities do isn’t because we don’t have a venue big enough, it’s because they don’t sell enough tickets to cover their cost to come here. Wichitans by a whole are frugal. Not cheap, but frugal. Most people that I know don’t want to spend $75.00 a ticket, plus $5.00 for a beer or soft drink, plus all of the other cost associated with going to these shows. Then have to deal with the crowds, the lines at the rest rooms, the lack of available rest rooms not to mention the ignorant drunks. That is the reason why we don’t get the bands here. A new arena isn’t going to change that. By the time you have covered all of the cost for the show, it is easily a $200.00 night for a couple. For that, my wife and I can get away to the Hyatt for the weekend. Will the people that go to the concerts now continue to go when they have to pay even more for the tickets than what they pay now? The ticket prices not only cover the cost of the entertainment but the cost of workers, maintenance, AND the cost of the building itself. The prices of tickets are certain to go up, the cost of maintaining the arena is going to have to be paid for. So if you are a concert goer now are you still going to go to the concerts when the ticket prices are $10.00, $20.00 or maybe more than they are now. The people that don’t go, aren’t going to be enticed into going with the promise of higher prices. They are not going to be talked into attending these events simply because it is a NEW building. Who cares. The price is still a major factor. The inconvenience of getting out of there is a close second. I have worked several concerts at the coliseum, and there was never a time in all of those years, sellouts or not, where the parking lot was not clear within an hour. It is so easy to get into and out of the coliseum. That was one of the reasons why the site for the coliseum was chosen to begin with. Right off the highway, right out of town, two major roads within a half mile, multiple exits. There is no congestion like there will be downtown. Supports of the arean are going to tought their objections, oppossers of the arena are going to tought theirs. But what it all boils down to is that the arena is going to have to try and support itself on the people who are current concert goers who are willing to pay higher prices to see their favorite bands or whatever. I think that people are going to be in for a big surprise when this thing is finished and the first event takes place. The ticket shock is going to eliminate many supporters. As for me and my fellow non-supports and non-concert goers, we can all set around and say “we told ya so” in the end. And I leave the door open for “I told ya so” if it does work. But, only after 5 successful years have past.
Joe,
I don’t see Wichita getting a pro team. A pro team is paid for thru tax dollars. I don’t think that many Wichitans, including myself, would be willing to have my already high taxes increased to fund a professional team. We are a small city. We don’t have the population of Denver, or Kansas City or Dallas. The cost to bring a professional team to Wichita with the number of residence that we have would be a hugh increase in taxes per individual.
Joe,If I hated Wichita, I’d say go ahead and build that white elephant.I have several problems with the proposed arena.1. If it’s going to be so financially profitable, why haven’t private businesses come forward to build it? They know where the money is.2. As proposed, it’s too small to attract the real music shows that require at least 35,000 seats. This arena isn’t any bigger than the Coliseum3. As proposed, with no secure parking area, more cars will be parked on the streets at night, and become a magnet for thieves, muggers and car-jackers.4. The idea of “build an arena, and a pro team will appear to play there” is pure pie-in-the-sky. As my dear old daddy used to say, “If you want a rabbit stew, FIRST you get the rabbit!” First get a team on board, and then build an arena to fit it’s needs.5. Funding this project with a regressive sales tax means that a lot of people will be paying for it who will never be able to afford to go to anything there. Let the people who will benefit from it pay! Get a loan to build it, to be paid off by a tax on tickets. If the lenders won’t go for that, it probably shouldn’t be built.6. The idea that it will somehow “revitalize” the downtown area is pure hogwash. I’ve watched too many proposals sold on that spiel, and projects built, and the downtown area stays just as empty as before. Consultants, designers and contractors did pretty well though! This arena is just one more scam to make a few people a wad of money.
Jed,There are only two arenas in the U.S. that were privately built. They are in Chicago and Los Angelas. I didn’t know Wichita had all these big investers to build an arena like in those 2 cities.
Also isn’t downtown supposed to be a crime magnet anyways. At least that is all I heard from you anti-arena people.
Were you around when they built Century II? That was built by bond money I guess we should just not use it then.
Face it you anti-arena folks lost. It was voted on by the citizens of the County and it passed.
I don’t use every library,park, or street in this city but I don’t bitch because my tax dollars go to those things. The arena is needed because other cities (the same or close to the same size of Wichita) have built arenas. Even Des Moines built one.
Hang in there Joe!! You’ve done well sifting through the ignorance, lies and assumptions of the anti-arena argument.
My finals went well, JR. I appreciate your asking. I’ll make a meet up sometime soon!!
Someone said we’re redundant? Give me a break. The only reason we might be redundant is because we have to keep replying to the same old crap the anti-arena folks keep spilling out. They ignore our facts and our arguments, so we respond again. It’s a vicious cycle. And we’re narrow-minded? Give me a break again. We offer well-thought out arguments BASED ON FACT, and we even provide links to our facts, and still they are ignored. It’s like we’re either arguing with a wall or with a crotchety old man.
I have a lot of specific things I have to respond to, so I apologize if this is lengthy. Many of these things are the same old crap arguments you guys have always said, and I know I’ve addressed these numerous times, so I also apologize for being “redundant,” but it’s your fault.
JWink, the costs of the arena will not exceed the sales tax revenue. I might not have made that point clear. But now the tax is projected to raise $201 million, so that is how much the county has to work with. Oh, and didn’t you guys used to say long ago that the tax would never raise the original amount? Your response will be: IGNORE IGNORE IGNORE!!
PARKING:–it is mere speculation to assume “millions” will be spent on additional parking. YOU HAVE NO FACTS ON WHICH TO BASE THIS ARGUMENT.–Thanks to Former for his thoughts on the success of Wells Fargo in Des Moines. PROOF that no parking=not a big deal.–We already have thousands of parking spaces downtown available for the arena. Events will primarily be on nights, when event goers will not have to compete with downtown workers for parking.–The MOWT complaints about Old Town parking is a cop out. To assume this is due to the arena is ridiculous. Most arena events will be at night when the museum is closed.
SEWER UPGRADES:–Holy cow, how many times do we have to do cover this Winky? Certain upgrades will be included in the site prep and infrastructure improvements budget of the arena project. The size and scope of the upgrades you were talking about will not be necessary.
TENANT PROSPECTS:–The Wichita Thunder is the arena’s anchor tenant. REPORTS THAT THEY WOULD NOT EVEN CONSIDER PLAYING DOWNTOWN ARE WRONG. The Thunder provided both staff and PLAYERS to the voteyea campaign. They were stauch supporters from the very start. The front office has been looking forward to additional marketing opportunities presented by the new arena. Winky, the Thunder is not interested in a new suburban arena, please stop making stuff up.–If event choice concerns anyone, consider that the Coliseum hosts almost 300 events per year and most will move downtown.
COSTS:–are a matter of public record–You may file a request for information with the county–information on distributions from sales tax revenue is available on the county’s arena website
VOTE:–You had your chance to voice your concerns against a downtown arena in November 2004. You lost. Get over it.
TOURISTS:–Events attract tourists, the arena does not.–The arena attracts events–Events won’t attract people from Denver, KC, etc. But we can get people from Western Kansas, Northern Oklahoma, southern Nebraska, Topeka, Salina, etc. However, NCAA tournament games do have the ability to attract visitors from across the country.–”What else will it have to draw me in?” Whatever the Coliseum has right now plus events that are unable to be held there now, such as the NCAA tournament.
JR, Wichita is not dead yet, just to those dead hearts who have already given up.
FUNDING:–anti-arena cavers would have bitched and moaned about using property taxes, too. Citizens voted down the use of property taxes to pay for renovations to the Coliseum.–Private money will never build a major arena in Wichita because very few major arenas are built anywhere with private money. We have been over this time and time again. AN ARENA IS NOT A PROFIT CENTER. You cannot expect it to be. But that does not make it an unworthy project. Pull your head out of your wallet for just a second please.–JWink, salaries of officials who spend time working on the arena project has already been discussed. It is more than apparent that they do not make enough money to make a significant impact on the arena budget.
COMPETITIVENESS:–Hell yes, if “Smith City” builds an arena along with everybody else, we better do it, too. This is how we remain competitive. If we let everyone else leave us in the dust, don’t complain that no one wants to live here or move their corporations here. If you run a company and your competition comes out with a better product, you better be right behind with some kind of answer.
PUBLIC INVOLVEMENT:–Winky, the public IS involved in this process. We got the chance to vote, and I’m sorry the minority does not win. We had input on the site, and we have now had input on the design.
TRAFFIC:–Ben, one guy mentions to the county officials that they need to improve Washington and you expect them to drop everything???? I don’t get it. If it’s a matter of record that their traffic engineering department told them that’s one thing. One well meaning joe-blow citizen offering honest input is another. You cannot expect your comment out of thousands of others to reverberate up and down the halls of the county courthouse. That’s unrealistic.
WHAT’S THE RUSH?–Arena opponents feel an apparent need to rush things. Why no naming rights already? Why have no tenants been signed? Holy cow guys, calm down. This is the most expensive and complex project this community has ever undertaken. Keep your pants on. It is public knowledge that the county has already contracted with a national marketing company to obtain naming rights for the arena. A name will be announced soon enough but we must be patient and let the process work. Contrary to JWink’s delusional claims, the Thunder will play in the new arena. There’s your anchor tenant. No one’s been signed but that’s not a priority right now. In case you haven’t noticed, project officials have been busy trying to pick a site and a design here lately. We have almost 3 YEARS until the arena opens, plenty of time to take care of other considerations.
JR, you’re right, people here are too conservative, selfish, lazy and shortsighted. I cannot agree with you more. People here are also too negative. And you’re not helping. Anyone can complain about this–it shows character to actually do something about it.
Mountain Man, ticket prices at new arenas in cities comparable to Wichita are actually in line with ticket prices at the Coliseum. I expect prices to go up a little but not very much. The reason is the new arena has revenue options not available to the Coliseum–namely luxury suites and club seats. The rich people anti-arena folks love to hate actually subsidize ticket prices for those of us who sit in the cheap seats. Arguments that ticket prices will go up significantly are unresearched and based on mere assumptions. Please get back to me when you have facts. By the way, the last sell-out at the Coliseum was in March for Rascall Flats. Let me guess, 12,000 millionaires were in attendance, not 12,000 country music loving Kansas rednecks.
Jed, the arena isn’t larger than the Coliseum? Do you actually know anything about this project??? The arena is actually 40% larger than the Coliseum. Why is it that the Coliseum parking lot is not a magnet for theives, car jackers, etc? You’re ASSUMING car jackers, etc, will be attracted downtown, but this is not the case in other towns with downtown arenas.
Seriously, you guys need to research the effects of downtown arenas on other cities. Crime has not drastically increased. Redevelopment has followed. People have learned to appreciate their arenas. In Des Moines’ case, the lack of on site parking has not been an issue. If all you guys can do is speculate, assume, and make stuff up, then my hopes to have an intelligent debate on this issue are, as you would say, “pie in the sky,” “pig in a poke,” or any other assorted hillbilly metaphors.
Shocker – my point with traffic and washington was that they could not claim (as they did) that “nobody anticipated it”. I and others did and now they acknowledge that we were correct all along. The fact that their traffic department could not do so is testimony to the lack of competance there.
“soon enough” naming rights? Care to clue me in on just how “soon enough” that will be?
40% larger? 16,800 seats? (12,000 * 1.40)
Never heard of Smith City. Where is that?
Joe Williams: You seem like a sincere person who is truly interested in improving Wichita. I might even have met you back when, as you said on one of your postings, you were the on-site person at the Boathouse.
But Joe, don’t you understand the pro-arena people are actually anti-Wichita. The arena promoters are frantic to spend billions on the arena as fast as possible. Then they can leave town and let Wichita people figure out later what went wrong.
If you ever saw the “Music Man” scam River City in Iowa then you know the deal. Of course, there Marion, the Librarian, got in the way!
Wichita and Sedgwick County have many important needs to bring this area into the 21st century. The 1/4 billion dollars could go a long way to solve many of these problems.
Joe, no developer in his right mind would build a building or shopping center without an anchor tenant signed on the dotted line but that is what is happening with the arena.
Joe, its time for you to take a walk downtown and think of the damage you might be doing. And then change sides and give your enthusiasm and effort to the right side.
And bring your buddy, Shocker#7 along. Its not too late.
Just for the heck of it, Shocker ‘07, will you cite for us just one study that “proves” the benefit of taxpayer-funded arenas?
And also, for the record, will you state that you are not really Ron Holt (or Ben Sciortino) in disguise?
Billions of dollars? Damage? What damage could they possibily be doing by having an arena?
I attended a public meeting on a design plan for the area south of Douglas to Kellogg, from the Arena site to Main street.
They brought in experts in urban planning and brought forth several possibilities that could redevelop and change the area. It was great and I believe it will help totally revamp the area.
One of the largest factors in redevelopment it the arena. Also, the Minnesota investors who are converting empty buildings into condos are doing it because of the arena. Waterwalk is another example, new hotels are popping up in downtown, including a brand new Marriot that is re-using an exisiting building that has been empty for decades. Which includes the Spaghetti Works building in the near future.
It’s already happening, yet we are short sided in what $200 million could really do. Places like St. Louis, Des Moines, Omaha, and OKC are spending billions into their downtowns. Omaha is attracting many businesses including fortune 500 companies to move headquarters there. Yet we complain that Wichita can’t attract anything.
What do you propose is better spent with $200 million dollars?
Again! I will ask the question. Practially all of the top 50 largest cities in the USA are building or have built downtown arenas. It is a formula of successful redevelopment. If it weren’t, then hardly any city would do it. Cities follow a path of success and they learn from others that have done it. Unfortunantly Wichita is not a trend setter, but the last to ever do anything.
So why do cities build arenas and sport stadiums in downtowns? Do they all want to waste money and have white elephants? Or do they know it is a path to successful urban planning for growing metroplexes?
If we didn’t have pro-develpment and arena people in Wichita, then none of what is happening downtown would happen. It would remain the same if not deteriate badly. Follow success of other cities and do what they do.
I’ll admit that the arena will not be the catch all to end all nor will it be the single thing to develop downtown, but it isn’t going to hurt, in a round about way, it won’t do nothing but help and the investment return for building it will surpass what it cost constructing it.
The arena is a done deal. There is nothing that will stop it now. Might as well accept it. You don’t have to embrace it, but it’s going to come.
JWink! Lets go downtown. Let’s go to the site where the arena will be built and tell me what damage could possibly take place there. It’s nothing but a bunch of vacent and sparcly used buildings and a flat never used parking lot and brick lined streets that has been there since the 1920’s.
It will be intereting to see how the new emimmant domain restricions affect the arena project.
Joe: You missed the point entirely. The location is not the issue … I know that area very well having sold scrap paper in the Boy Scouts possibly on Emporia and south edge of #54 overpass. Nor is building an arena itself the issue. Remember I was one of the first to suggest an arena for the ground on east side of the Ice Rink, south of Lawrence-Dumont.
My objection is using 1/4 billion dollars in sales taxes collected from the hard earned incomes of the middle income people of Wichita and Sedgwick County. A lot of really important needs exist for that money including let the taxpayers keep their hard-earned money for their own use.
Use of sales taxes of all the people only approved by half the voters is the epitomy of the phrase, “tyranny of the majority,” a major concern by the revered Alexis DeToqueville in describing potential weaknesses of a Democracy.
I might remind you of the old saying about Communism: “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.”
You can call yourself a conservative or a Republican all day long but until you also “walk the walk,” you ain’t one!
It’s well known that arenas across the country are being promoted by a person in Ohio for a number of reasons:
1) Let the average to poor Americans fund a nationwide public works program that the Federal Government can’t or won’t do because of the Iraq war.
2) Promote a new “sports industry” especially for ice hockey at taxpayers expense also across the country of course.
This is a diabolic scheme for which a lot of well-meaning people are unwittingly falling for in the form of arena cheerleaders. Behind the scenes some people know what is going on and will reap millions at taxpayer expense.
So, Joe, go up to the roof of a tall downtown building early in the morning and look out over the city you love and make a commitment to change sides and come out fighting against the downtown arena.
And bring your buddy, Shocker#7, along — its not to late to do good for your fellow citizens.
Who is this person in Ohio? Of course I don’t expect you to reply because you never do. Also where are the links for all the B.S. you just typed?
Ok! The funding of the arena I can give that to you. Although I seriously doubt that an arena could be built without public money.
We do need a downtown arena though. We could have funded it through bonds or other creative finance issue, but we are basically bonded out. With the school bonds, general obligation bonds, Industrial revenue bonds, and so on, there is so much we can do. We might have been able to use the STAR bond, but that has already expired for use. We could have dedicated a mil or two from homeowners.
We could have funded the arena another way than an exclusive sales tax, but the county made a determination that this would be the fastest, easiest, and less costly way to fund the downtown arena.
Kansas property taxes are very high so they knew it wouldn’t be popular to go to homeowners for the funding. That is what the Dynaplex was going to do and that was defeated before it even went to the ballot box.
You do have a point that a 1 cent increase in sales tax could hit middle income families about $50 extra a year and that is money worth keeping. That is a cable bill for the month.
However, you cannot make that aurgument with low income or people in poverty, because they don’t pay any taxes and sales tax on anything they buy is refunded to them.
Joe,I usually disagree with you about other issues but everyone of your posts on this issue are dead on.
JWink,In a previous blog about the arena you claimed the reason Century II is where it is is for rain runoff to go to the river. Since Century II is round where does all the rest of the rain water go? I always wanted to know the answer to that question.
The only people who will make money off the building of the arena are the contractors.
Comment to Joe Williams. The 1920 buildings and brick streets have historic value.
Eventually, the truth does out.
Now we learn that the only onsite parking for the arena will be for VIPs. Everybody else gets to hike in. We further learn that the best seats in the house will also be reserved for the well heeled who will have their own access to the arena and need not rub elbows with the folks actually paying for it! Hell they don’t even have to share a drink in the club with the “unwashed”!
Why were these things not shared with the public BEFORE the arena was voted on?
Answer: It would never have been even narrowly approved as it was.
I call for a new vote as to whether the arena as envisioned is really what the public wants. And if that vote is in the negative, there are ample places where the collected sales taxes can be better spent.
Mountain Man,
I don’t know the last time there was a sellout at the Coliseum, but I do know of 5, back in December 1997 for the Garth Brooks concerts. I hit redial enough times to finally get tickets on the 3rd or 4th night, and he’d only planned for no more than 2 nights. They were definite sellouts. After that, I don’t have a clue.
Rascall Flats was the most recent sellout back in March. Eagles sold out before that. Cher sold out awhile back as well.
07 – those were not sellouts. Nor will the new Arena have 16,800 seats as claimed above (40% more than 12,000).
JR, these “well-heeled” people who wouldn’t share a drink with us “unwashed” are paying many times what we are for their seats. They deserve special parking, special treatment, etc. When you can shell out thousands for a suite or hundreds for club seats, then you are entitled to the same. This is how it is done at arenas across the country. The confederate flag/Elvis- collector-plate-crowd of Wichita is more than welcome to purchase club seats or suites if they would like.
JWink, please answer Keith’s posts for your own good. Your silence only proves his point.
Ben, “soon enough” is three years–that’s when the arena opens. The Ford Center in OKC was not named as such until just a few months before it opened. The Qwest Center in Omaha was for a long time known as the “Metropolitan Entertainment and Convention Center.” It takes time to put these deals together. We have a LONG road until our arena opens its doors–calm down in the meantime, I don’t want to hear about one of our better posters having a heartattack over this! Oh, and by the way, that 40% is a dramatic typo. 25% is what I should have written. Thanks for catching that.
KCL, I am well aware of where you are wanting to go with your call for studies showing benefits of taxpayer funded arenas. I might mention the independent KPMG study in 1998 that showed a $300 million dollar economic benefit of a downtown Wichita arena or a similar WSU study a few years later that found largely the same results. But then you would respond with some Libertarian jibberish such as studies from the Cato Institute that actually show major-league teams and stadiums bleed economic activity from cities. No KCL, I am not Ron Holt or Mr. Sciortino, but I take that as a complement. A sincere thank you. I’m just a guy, a WSU student, middle-class, Wichita Thunder fan, a Wichitan by birth, who passionately believes Wichita deserves better than what its people give it. If I leave Wichita after I graduate, it won’t be because it’s not a great place to live or that there is no opportunity here, its because its people lack vision and a spirit. We settle for the status quo instead of striving for great things. We worship the gods of low taxes and personal interest instead of aspiring for the virtues of community prosperity and quality of life for all. I will gladly take my ideals, my motivation, and my spirit if they are not welcome here. Bottom line, I would really like to live somewhere where I’m congratulated for my community pride, not ridiculed for it. We talk so much about whether or not pro-arena people have the right to take tax money from others. Well, I’m not personally taking anyone’s money. But I’ll tell you this: I am far less concerned with your money or mine than I am with the welfare of the City of Wichita. This is a great place, folks, we need to support it anyway we can.
Enough about these conspiracy theories that there is some mysterious Ohioan or group of developers who will benefit from the arena. The anti-arena crowd is quick to accuse us cheerleaders of being ambiguous or deceptive or even dishonest. Yet no caver has been able to name any individual who will actually profit from the arena. No caver has been able to identify any developer who is responsible for getting the arena passed and is guaranteed profit from its building. No caver has been able to identify any major arenas built in cities similar to Wichita’s size (no, Los Angeles does not count) that have been privately funded. Isn’t the pot calling the kettle black? (see, I can use hillbilly sayings too)
Ben…sigh. Yes they were. Rascall Flats was a sellout. Cher’s FIRST concert here (2001-ish, I forget the exact date) was a sellout–her second concert a year later was not. The Eagles’ most recent concert was not a sellout, I was referring to the performance before that.
My point is that the Chicken Littles who say concerts do not sell out here are delusional.
I wonder of SWB/ATT might be interested. With the new law enabling them to compete with Cox …
As for rascal Flats – I have been watching closely for any sell-outs since this whole thing began a few years ago. NONE during that time. sigh
Shocker96,01
I agree that there are concerts that do “sell-out” however they are rather few and far between. In the past 10 years how many? 3 – Garth Brooks, Cher, and Rascal Flatts. How many have been near sellouts in that time? 15? 20?How many are depressingly unattended? 75? 120?
In defense of ‘jwink’ – he may not be able to check the blog, he is a substitute teacher and may be working. I’m sure he’ll post as soon as he is able.
“JR, these “well-heeled” people who wouldn’t share a drink with us “unwashed” are paying many times what we are for their seats. They deserve special parking, special treatment, etc. When you can shell out thousands for a suite or hundreds for club seats, then you are entitled to the same.”
Then why was the arena not financed by a luxury or property tax that would have placed the burden of building the arena on the folks who could use it?
Good point JR. Just how much has been ponied up for these luxury facilities so far?
A funding proposal for skyboxes etc: Since they presumably have significant value sell them as “condomiums”. Thus, a purchaser would own the rights to them. This should be done before they are built; in other words during the taxation/fund-raising phase. Then ’07’s claims would become true.
That is an absolutely stellar idea Ben!
If this arena is going to be a success, ownership of a portion of the luxury facilities would seem to be a good investment opportunity. A lack of interest in investing thusly would suggest that those “in the know with the dough” do not see the arena as a successful venture. That would not necessarily mean no arena, just no luxury seats or parking.
Shocker? I admire your community spirit and youthful zeal. Truly I do.
But the more we learn about this arena the more it looks like we were not supposed to know.
Maybe ‘07 will mail in his check.
JR, the only “expensive” seats are the suites, club seats. These people are paying thousands for them. One will not have to be independently wealthy to purchase bowl seating, as some erroneously imply. You can go to a Blazers game at the Ford Center for 12 bucks just like a Thunder game at the Coliseum. Paying for the arena with a luxury tax is putting ALL the burden on just a few people, not the thousands of regular folks who will buy the regular seats. Paying for the arena with a property tax puts the burden on every property owner in Sedgwick County and does not consider those who travel to Sedgwick County to make purchases.
Ditching the luxury boxes would be disasterous. There is a reason why every arena built these days have them–they generate substantial revenue. Revenue that keeps ticket prices down for guys like you and me. Revenue that keeps the arena operational and not a drain on taxpayers. If you ditch the luxury boxes to “help” the disadvantaged, you’re only biting the hand that feeds you.
For you CAVE people (Citizens Against Virtually Everything), how many went to the River Festival? One of the most attended by the way (yes, weather was perfect). Did you mind parking on the street and walking a few blocks? I doubt it. So stop bitching about the perceived Arena parking problem. Isn’t your real bitch that you didn’t want the Arena in the first place, and you would be against mom’s apple pie if it had something to do with the Arena?
I went to Riverfest. Got sunburned too. :( (Forget to put on sunscreen).
I parked on Topeka street and walked to CenturyII and down to the Hyatt and to the bank of the Arkansas River. Didn’t take but 10 minutes.
People will walk to the arena. That isn’t going to be a problem.
My buddy and I parked near the Indian Center and walked to the area around Century II. It was invigorating. I recommend walking to any Wichitan. I know it’s a new concept for many of us, but well worth a try.
I see the ASFC crowd (Arena Supporters For Communism) are resorting to name-calling (CAVE people (Citizens Against Virtually Everything)) instead of addressing issues.
So, ASFC crowd, what do you think of my idea of selling skybox condominiums?
I’m not exactly an expert on luxury box financing. It might already be done that way, Ben. When I toured the Pepsi Center in Denver, our guides spoke of corporations “purchasing” suites. I have also heard of suites being “leased” in other arenas. It may just be different terminology, or there may be different MOs between major league and minor league facilities. Perhaps it’s up to arena management or the market. Someone smarter than I with legitimate sources will have to clue us in on this one.
Treating them as condos would generate a one time cash inflow for the arena. Whereas a lease arrangement would generate consistent streams of revenue. If I were arena managment, I would prefer leasing. Undoubtedly, the capital appreciation potential of a suite is low at any arena. Corporations would most likely determine other investing opportunities would produce better returns and would prefer leasing the suite as well. I dunno, I’m just thinking out loud here.
The “cave” term I had heard long before the arena campaign. It’s nothing we made up. As long as we are “cheerleaders” I think it’s fair that you guys are cavers.
Here’s a little information about the accuracy and integrity of the WSU CEDBR study used to “justify” the arena. I quote from the study:
“A key assumption in the earlier analyses [the KPMG study] was that Wichita State University men’s basketball team would play its home games at the regional events center. This assumption is no longer valid. However, we have left the attendance and ticket estimates unchanged, assuming that sufficient events would be scheduled to attain these attendance numbers.”
Later on:
“CEDBR acknowledges that there is an obvious substitution effect due to the movement of events from the existing Kansas Coliseum to the proposed new regional events center. However, the magnitude of that substitution was not included in this analysis.”
I inquired about the Impact of GASB statement 34 on the arena’s projections, since that statement became effective between the time of the KPMG study and the WSU study. Here’s the answer I received:
“After a number of inquiries, I have found that up until last year, governments did not depreciate assets like this. The standard, however, changed last year and now they are supposed to. Unfortunately, the WSU team was not aware of the change accounting practices [sic] and that was not included in their analysis.”
Tell me, anyone who cares, how can we have much confidence in the Center for Economic Development at Wichita State University? By the way, the Wichita Eagle has been aware of this for some time, but has chosen not to report on these issues.
Thanks KCL, i have long had ‘issues’ with the WSU CEDBR. They predicted the current labor shortage (sic) in Wichita based on the assumption that women would leave the work force when their kids graduated from high school. The Eagle and Business Journal published their predictions knowing about their flawed assumptions.
I have raised the issue of WSU being a part of a regional arena and supported such an idea many years ago (I was at WSU before the Koch renovation). I have subsequently stated that the decision to take WSU off the table effectively killed the likelihood of a successful arena.
‘07 – they are not financing the Boxes privately, they are being done solely with taxes. The reason they don’t go my way is that they know it would never fly.
It’s a done deal. You can use anything you want to make a case against the arena, but it isn’t going to stop it.
About WSU and the Koch Arena, I was at WSU also. Students used to park for free, but they issued a pay parking fee system. They said it would pay for new parking lots and help renovate Koch Arena. It was $50 a semester and it was suppose to be temporary. I guess I’m wrong.
I might be mistaken, but wouldn’t it be a good thing for the city if the arena is successful? Why on earth would anyone want it to fail? How would that be good for Wichita?
When the arena opens, don’t get all wrapped around the axle if every single event doesn’t sell out. Yes, it’s nice if that happens, but what’s important is if the event makes money and promoters see that the facility has good support from the community.
We’ve had a lot of big events here at Wells Fargo over the last year, and only a few completely sold out, but the arena was in the black by nearly $3 million. Everyone is happy.
By the way, we don’t have any centralized parking around the arena, and everyone has survived just fine, thank you. It’s actually an advantage, those parking in the existing flat lots are always the last ones to get out.
Former,Your comments matter very little to the anti arena crowd. They will bitch about this project until they die. Just like they did about Century II, the zoo, Old Town, Exploration Place, the Big Ditch, and any other thing that was built in Wichita the past century.
Former – I don’t know anyone who WANTS it to fail nor have I seen anyone here post such a sentiment. Can you quote one saying “I want it to fail”?
I agree with you that success would be good for Wichita and have expressed hope that my predictions are proved wrong. However, I cannot base predictions on what I want; only on what I see.
Keith – as a zoo member I have never bitched about the zoo. Nor about Exploration Place (although I have problems with its management) or Century II. The Ditch does have some problems in that its design exacerbates flooding downstream.
I voted yes, but now I’m starting to have my doubts.It’s my guilt for, as a K-State senior in 1979, voting for a hike in student fees I would never pay to build Bramlage Coliseum.This was sold to us as a 20,000 seat arena. But, after the Legislature reneged on its promised funding (who knew?), the final product was 13,800 seats–a paltry 1100 more than Ahearn Field House.K-State basketball might have been better off if we had stayed in the Old Barn.This arena will clearly not be large enough because of all the unexpected costs.Still, I think one is needed…but perhaps a different site would have been better.I speak of the old Derby refinery site at I-135 and 21st. Land aquisition would not be as significant an issue, more room would be available for parking, and you have just as deserving an area for development.But, since nobody on either side of Central posesses even the remotest ability to think outside the box…
Why put it where it could be another Coliseum just closer. The smell is enough to drive people away.
I AM hoping that the arena fails.
The other community projects named; Exploration Place the zoo etc. are equal opportunity as to admission and quality of experience.
The arena is not. It was fronted as a community project when what it really is is the poor paying for good seats, good parking and events for the wealthy.Some may be comfortable (Shocker 07) paying for amenities for the already comfortable wealthy. I am not. If I am paying the same sales taxes I deserve the same parking and seats.Ben’s idea of pre-selling the luxury accomodations was a good one. If that had been done you would have seen that the arena is NOT regarded as a good investment. The luxuries would have gone unpaid for. Let the poor people do that.
I hope there is an effort to recall the arena vote. At the very least the public should have a full idea of what they are paying for. They should have been given that in the first place.
Failing that, I will continue to hope that the arena will fail as a lesson that it is not fair expect the many to pay for the luxuries of the few.
ARENA REVOTE!
Ben,You are one of the few. Hoping the arena fails is the reason nothing gets done in Wichita. Why risk doing something that will make the city competitive when we have the chance. This line of thinking is the reason so many young people and companies left Wichita.
The arena has nothing to do with it.This city will never be competitive until we get rid of the elitist fuddy-duddys who allow the do nothings on the 13th floor to continue to do nothing.Until the city and the county learn to be nimble like Park City, they will continue to slouch toward… something or other.
Nimble like Park City? What does that mean? Park City isn’t nothing more than an Interstate Pitstop and just another parasitic suburb. It actually needs to be incorporated into Wichita.
What is funny is that all the companies that have builted facilities next to the Internet (no development happens beyond that in Park City), they all give Wichita addresses. That right! You can live or have a business in Park City and put Wichita on your mail and it will still come to you.
Once Park City starts really developing beyond the Pit Stops and Interstate Access points, let me know. Bel Aire is developing more and faster than Park City can even hope to.
The site of the old Derby refinery probably will develop into an international intermodal port. I actually just recieve information about this yesterday.
Too early in the morning for me I guess. Many spelling errors on my last post. LOL.
I just woke up. :P
Joe and other arena cheerleaders: I don’t have time to discuss the arena this AM but I am still amazed where you guys get the idea that a 1/4 billion dollars of the low to middle income citizens taxes can be spent for the downtown arena. This is basically going to be another ice rink for ice hockey enthusiasts. This is ludicrous considering the REAL NEEDS OF ALL WICHITA CITIZENS, NOT JUST A FEW HUNDRED ICE HOCKEY ENTHUSIASTS.
Joe: You seem sincere so I have a feeling you are being duped by a false enthusiasm for Wichita to the point you can’t see the “forest for the trees” as they say. Probably Shocker 07 is in the same boat unless he is somehow associated with the pro-arena people. Some time in the future, as you boys grow older, you will shed your socialistic leanings and become protectors of the local economy. And then you will look back at the damage you helped to create here in Wichita. But you are a long way from that position now.
I’ve got to go.
Ben, AS WE HAVE SAID BEFORE, no decision was made to remove WSU from the downtown arena. They removed THEMSELVES from the project. It was their decision to renovate Koch instead. AS WE HAVE SAID BEFORE, there are many arenas that do just fine without university tenants. Ford and Wells Fargo are good examples. I’m not sure what you are saying with the luxury boxes. Of course they are being paid for with taxes, just like every other aspect of the project. Yet companies will be forking over thousands to “lease/purchase” them. Just like anything else in life, you get what you pay for, and companies/individuals who pay 100 times more than what I do to get into an event should be entitled to extra priviledges. It’s life, get over it.
Former is kind enough to offer his city’s experiences with Wells Fargo, and the cavers just ignore what he has to say. Sorry Former, at least Keith, Joe and I appreciate your input and what you have to say. Good to hear Wells Fargo is working out so well in Des Moines–I figured it would.
Mr. C, thanks for voting for the arena, but 21st and I-135??? Are you kidding me?? What is the sense in putting a state of the art arena in the middle of an industrial area that has NO potential for redevelopment?? The smell in that area is horrific. It’s just blocks from the ghetto. Access in and out is just as restrictive as the Coliseum. And it would not leave visitors a good impression of the city. Putting the arena is a redeveloping area in downtown, just like many other cities have done successfully, is by far the best approach.
Jerry, don’t troll. You know as well as everyone else the arena is not being built for just a “few hundred” hockey fans. Concerts will be held there as well. Maybe even arena football and basketball. NCAA tournaments. Most events at the Coliseum will just move downtown. Just be realistic, that’s all I’m asking.
‘07 – I never said it was not WSU’s decision to remove themselves; only that it WAS a decision. And, as KCL pointed out, the projections for the Arena were predicated on WSU being on board and were never re-worked.
We ARE being realistic – far more so than you.
“NCAA tournaments.” Will they locate one in a 15,000-seat (not 16,800 as claimed) facility?
Having WSU in the downtown arena would have made since for men’s basketball only. Volleyball and women’s basketball would have been a joke in the downtown arena.
Jwink,Who is this person in Ohio? Of course I don’t expect you to reply because you never do. Also where are the links for all the B.S. you type?
The current minimum seating capacity for NCAA tournaments is 13,000. It is not expected to rise again anytime soon. The original Dynaplex proposal, using the KPMG study, projected around 100 events at the arena. We’re looking at two to three times that now, more than enough to offset the loss of WSU basketball. You also continue to fail to consider the success of other major arenas around the country that do not have Div 1 basketball tenants. I have provided a list for your consideration:
Baltimore, MD Baltimore ArenaBirmingham, AL Jefferson CivicBossier City, LA Century TelCincinnati, OH Firstar CenterDes Moines, IA Wells FargoFayetteville, NC Crown CenterGrand Rapids, MI Van AndelKansas City, MO KemperOklahoma City, OK Ford CenterPensacola, FL Civic CenterQuad Cities, IL The MarkSan Diego, CA Sports ArenaSpokane, WA Spokane ArenaSt. Charles, MO Family ArenaTacoma, WA Tacoma DomeTulsa, OK Tulsa Convention Ctr
You make an excellent point, Keith, about WSU sports at the downtown arena. I had never thought about that. It would have made no sense to renovate The Chuck and use it just for volleyball and women’s basketball. Do you know if Creighton plays only basketball at Qwest?
JWink, I guess you can’t link complete crap…
“The original Dynaplex proposal, using the KPMG study, projected around 100 events at the arena. We’re looking at two to three times that now, more than enough to offset the loss of WSU basketball.”
The use of the KPMG study has already been discredited.
Where do you get your “two to three time” figure? Sounds more like fewer since a big chunk (WSU) is gone.
I understand Bob Lutz will be examining the NCAA seating issue in an up-coming article. My understanding is that this year were all about 18K; even more than the false 16,800 claimed for this one.
There is a credible source. The only thing Lutz cares about is the St. Louis Cardinals. He will take any moment to bash WSU and anything related to WSU.Lutz should move to St. Louis and write for their paper. But he can’t because the St. Louis Post Dispatch doesn’t hire crappy writers.
It’s a shame that so many antique and historical building’s will be destroyed for the arena, parking, and road upgrades. Rather than destroy so many of the buildings that make historic downtown what it is, money should be spent to renovate and revitalize all. Also many businesses which have existed for decades downtown will have to relocate elsewhere. Who’s bright idea was it to put such a monstrosity in such a compact area anyway. Think about it. Next time you’re at the Colisium take a good look at how big it, and it’s parking really are. Now, Imagine fitting it downtown. Good luck. What ever is most profitable to the City. The amount of independently owned property downtown has been rapidly decreasing for years, if that says anything about the city’s focus. But what is done is done. I Feel that this is truly a tradgedy for much of what made Wichita so unique, to what degree, only time will tell.
Charles,The buildings in the area of the arena have been run down for years. The existing businesses will get at the least twice of what their land is worth. If they can not move somewhere else in downtown I would call them crazy. My question is how historic are these buildings. Typical Wichita save non-historical buildings (i.e. the boathouse)but let the real historic buildings run down (i.e. Orpheum, Carnegie Library, and the Old Wichita Municipal Airport Administration Building).
Also other cities have built big arenas in their downtown and they have survived.
Keith – I think we usually see arenas built just outside downtown, not IN downtown. San Antonio for example a couple of miles away. So, looking at Wichita, look to the land just north of St. Francis hospital just west of the Canal Route. About 1-2 miles north of Old Town and about 2 miles from WSU.
Ben,If I remember right Wells Fargo Arena and the Qwest Center is in the downtowns of Des Moines and Omaha respectfully. That is all I can think of tonight. Let me do some research and I will get back to you.
Here are links to several downtown areas in different cities. As you can see several arenas are in the downtowns of cities.
Birmingham, AlabamaBirmingham Jefferson Convention Complex:http://www.downtownbirmingham.org/
Cincinnati, OhioU.S. Bank Arena:http://www.downtowncincinnati.com/
Grand Rapids, MichiganVan Andel Arena:www.gvmc.org/administration/documents/GRDowntown.pdf
Oklahoma City, OklahomaFord Center:http://www.bricktownokc.com/
I apologize for the length of this post. Also the Ford Center is in the Bricktown section of OKC but Bricktown is actually part of OKC’s downtown.As the research states there are other arenas in downtowns of other cities. Wichita is not the first to try this concept.